All of the individual components are extremely redundant and relatively easy to replace. It also places a heavy emphasis on Enchantments which, in general, tend to be the most resilient form of nonland permanent. Very few decks actually field mass Enchantment removal and the deck can easily recover from spot removal. I'll grant you that the deck is relatively slow but that's more-or-less a function of the strategy itself. There basically isn't a good way to cast turn 2 Nest of Scarabs turn 3 Black Sun's Zenith without an absurd manabase.
I would cut the green. 5 mana is too slow if the deck otherwise put's up no defenses to that point. I would probably jam Pyroclasm instead.
The Green splash is basically free and so I don't see a compelling reason to cut such a powerful card for the archetype. I don't care about trying to wait until turn 5-6 either. I have things like Necroskitter and Nest of Scarabs to provide me with turn 4 board swings and from there I can jam Flourishing Defenses on turn 5 to set up for a reload in case my board gets wiped.
I've tested Pyroclasm but in practice there's basically never a good opportunity to cast it. When you actually sit down and write-up/shuffle-up the curves and draws there's virtually no optimal line that can make use of Pyroclasm. The card that I actually want to run is Cave-In and I'm mostly trying to find ways to fit it in. The deck probably needs 4 because then I can actually do things like turn 1 Soul-Scar Mage, turn 2 Humble Defector/Fellwar Stone, turn 3 Necroskitter/Nest of Scarabs + Cave-In which is what I ideally want to be able to do.
Kulrath Knight for pushing those tokens through creatures with ANY counters on them your opponents control?
The main reason why I initially stopped playing Wither decks was because Kulrath Knight has basically always been lauded as the big payoff card but in my experience it accomplishes absolutely nothing relevant. It's expensive, slow, conditional, dies to removal, worthless vs creature-light decks on and on and on. Don't get me wrong, sometimes it's totally bonkers, but the card doesn't actually win games it merely prevents you from losing them. You still have to actually find a way to win and if you just rely on Necroskitter well people learn to kill those and then your deck is trash. This is why I prefer these Nest of Scarabs and Flourishing Defenses style cards. A) they're durable and B) they actually win games as opposed to merely prolonging them. It's a reasonable suggestion and I wouldn't fault anyone for jamming them in their own lists but I've personally come to loathe this card and how little it accomplishes in practice.
Channeler Initiate seems to fit into this deck. A manadork early is nice, and 4 bodies for one card later doesn't seem bad to kick up token production again after a wrath.
What would you suggest for midrange/late-game if you can't count on opponents having useful Necroskitter targets in their graveyards? I'm leaning toward Beastmaster Ascension or something with Devour but I'm struggling. I'm hung up on not having anything that can reliably go over the top but maybe I'm just being paranoid.
What would you suggest for midrange/late-game if you can't count on opponents having useful Necroskitter targets in their graveyards? I'm leaning toward Beastmaster Ascension or something with Devour but I'm struggling. I'm hung up on not having anything that can reliably go over the top but maybe I'm just being paranoid.
That's a good question. My primary concern with cards like Beastmaster Ascension is that they're absolutely worthless when things aren't going your way. Aftrer all, they only serve to exacerbate the effectiveness of mass removal spells played against you while not necessarily making your "good" matchups significantly better. Same thing with Shamanic Revelation and Devour cards.
I'm thinking generic value spells/engines such as Syphon Mind and Deathreap Ritual might be the way to go, in addition to a small number of "over-the-top" finishers such as Beastmaster Ascension.
That's a good question. My primary concern with cards like Beastmaster Ascension is that they're absolutely worthless when things aren't going your way. Aftrer all, they only serve to exacerbate the effectiveness of mass removal spells played against you while not necessarily making your "good" matchups significantly better. Same thing with Shamanic Revelation and Devour cards.
I'm thinking generic value spells/engines such as Syphon Mind and Deathreap Ritual might be the way to go, in addition to a small number of "over-the-top" finishers such as Beastmaster Ascension.
I suppose I could always just run Impact Tremors or Purph too but then it's just every other token ping deck I've built.
I think even with two colors, you'd probably still want Forbidden Orchard. Nest of Scarabs+Harbinger of Night also seems like a nonbo. You set yourself back 3 turns before you can ever attack profitably.
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5x Mountain
5x Swamp
4x Forbidden Orchard
4x Savage Lands
4x Exotic Orchard
4x Soul-Scar Mage
4x Humble Defector
2x Varchild's War-Riders
2x Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons
4x Necroskitter
4x Black Sun's Zenith
4x Nest of Scarabs
2x Everlasting Torment
2x Chain Reaction
2x Flourishing Defenses
4x Cave-In
4x Blasphemous Act
Necroskitter + Black Sun's Zenith = gain control of every creature in play and trigger their "enters the battlefield" triggers,
Nest of Scarabs/Flourishing Defenses + Black Sun's Zenith = clear the board and create millions of 1/1s,
Soul-Scar Mage/Everlasting Torment + Chain Reaction/Blasphemous Act = 6-8 (virtual) additional copies of Black Sun's Zenith.
Thoughts?
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I would cut the green. 5 mana is too slow if the deck otherwise put's up no defenses to that point. I would probably jam Pyroclasm instead.
All of the individual components are extremely redundant and relatively easy to replace. It also places a heavy emphasis on Enchantments which, in general, tend to be the most resilient form of nonland permanent. Very few decks actually field mass Enchantment removal and the deck can easily recover from spot removal. I'll grant you that the deck is relatively slow but that's more-or-less a function of the strategy itself. There basically isn't a good way to cast turn 2 Nest of Scarabs turn 3 Black Sun's Zenith without an absurd manabase.
The Green splash is basically free and so I don't see a compelling reason to cut such a powerful card for the archetype. I don't care about trying to wait until turn 5-6 either. I have things like Necroskitter and Nest of Scarabs to provide me with turn 4 board swings and from there I can jam Flourishing Defenses on turn 5 to set up for a reload in case my board gets wiped.
I've tested Pyroclasm but in practice there's basically never a good opportunity to cast it. When you actually sit down and write-up/shuffle-up the curves and draws there's virtually no optimal line that can make use of Pyroclasm. The card that I actually want to run is Cave-In and I'm mostly trying to find ways to fit it in. The deck probably needs 4 because then I can actually do things like turn 1 Soul-Scar Mage, turn 2 Humble Defector/Fellwar Stone, turn 3 Necroskitter/Nest of Scarabs + Cave-In which is what I ideally want to be able to do.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
The main reason why I initially stopped playing Wither decks was because Kulrath Knight has basically always been lauded as the big payoff card but in my experience it accomplishes absolutely nothing relevant. It's expensive, slow, conditional, dies to removal, worthless vs creature-light decks on and on and on. Don't get me wrong, sometimes it's totally bonkers, but the card doesn't actually win games it merely prevents you from losing them. You still have to actually find a way to win and if you just rely on Necroskitter well people learn to kill those and then your deck is trash. This is why I prefer these Nest of Scarabs and Flourishing Defenses style cards. A) they're durable and B) they actually win games as opposed to merely prolonging them. It's a reasonable suggestion and I wouldn't fault anyone for jamming them in their own lists but I've personally come to loathe this card and how little it accomplishes in practice.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
That's a good question. My primary concern with cards like Beastmaster Ascension is that they're absolutely worthless when things aren't going your way. Aftrer all, they only serve to exacerbate the effectiveness of mass removal spells played against you while not necessarily making your "good" matchups significantly better. Same thing with Shamanic Revelation and Devour cards.
I'm thinking generic value spells/engines such as Syphon Mind and Deathreap Ritual might be the way to go, in addition to a small number of "over-the-top" finishers such as Beastmaster Ascension.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I suppose I could always just run Impact Tremors or Purph too but then it's just every other token ping deck I've built.
4x Birds of Paradise
1x Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons
4x Harbinger of Night
4x Melira, Sylvok Outcast
4x Necroskitter
4x Soul Snuffers
2x Everlasting Torment
4x Nest of Scarabs
6x Forest
4x Golgari Rot Farm
10x Swamp
4x Golgari Signet
1x Sol Ring
2x Natural Affinity
4x Black Sun's Zenith