My playgroup runs them all over the place (and I've even had the Doubling Season / Superfriends deck floating around for a while).
The general rule I would apply to a planeswalker in Multiplayer is that if you're expecting it to ultimate, you're doing it wrong. The good ones in Multiplayer are the ones with useful first or second abilities. If you get to activate them more than twice, you're winning. With that in mind, some of the 'walkers that do well in my meta:
Garruk Wildspeaker. Never gets old. Fantastic ramp card. If you basically consider Garruk as a downpayment on four free land untaps across the next two turns, he pays for himself. Anything more than that and you're winning with him (and that includes him wearing the removal spell that might've otherwise been pointed at the horror you're planning on ramping out).
Chandra, the Firebrand. Free forks. Good times. I haven't played with Flamecaller yet, but outside of the new one, this is far and away the best Chandra in Multiplayer.
Xenagos, the Reveler. Another fantastic ramp card and token spammer, and really cheap ATM. Go get some.
Liliana Vess -2 fetching Death Cloud then building towards her ultimate after blowing up the world. Splashing Red for Blasphemous Act helps a lot and so does Toxic Deluge/Massacre. Basically any cheap/free mass removal spell that you can cast alongside Lili is fantastic.
I like the ones that defend themselves, either by producing tokens or by killing things.
Yeah, good point. That's what makes Xenagos and Sorin, Lord of Innistrad really, really good. Sorin in particular is just an endless stream of annoying tokens. Even Ral Zarek is pretty good in this regard - I know he gets somewhat of a bad rep, and he's not worth too much, but he can at least protect himself and do some shenanigans.
One of our unwritten rules is that planeswalkers must die.
...
Unless they're combined with Doubling Season, planeswalker ultimates aren't important. Most planeswalkers alternate between their + and - value abilities. For instance, if I get several turns with Karn Liberated, I'll be the only player who doesn't want to restart the game. However, the fact that they could go ultimate still matters, because that's the part that forces other people to make bad attacks.
Same in my meta, really. I made the mistake of letting Venser, the Sojourner ultimate once. Never again.
I'm trying to think of the walkers I've actually seen ultimate without the use of Doubling Season in normal Multiplayer (it seems to happen in my cube a bit more often, given it's a Limited environment), and it's a pretty short list. I have a feeling that Garruk, Ajani and Chandra, the Firebrand are the only ones I've actually seen go off in that manner. Ral Zarek and Sorin, Lord of Innistrad have both been allowed to go off in my cube. In both cases, the opposition waited for it to reach critical mass and then stole it using Blatant Thievery so they could ultimate it. Let me tell you that Blatant Thievery followed by Sorin's ultimate = wreckage. Blatant Thievery on Ral Zarek for three extra turns, followed up by an overloaded Cyclonic Rift on the first extra turn is something not too far off the same.
Ral Zarek and Sorin, Lord of Innistrad have both been allowed to go off in my cube. In both cases, the opposition waited for it to reach critical mass and then stole it using Blatant Thievery so they could ultimate it. Let me tell you that Blatant Thievery followed by Sorin's ultimate = wreckage. Blatant Thievery on Ral Zarek for three extra turns, followed up by an overloaded Cyclonic Rift on the first extra turn is something not too far off the same.
I had someone try and do this sort of thing to me in a MOCS. I was on UWr Control, and got Ajani Vengeant up to 7 loyalty. My opponent cast Catch on his next main phase (playing a janky Dominus of Fealty brew), but in response I bolted myself and redirected it to Ajani. Getting Lightning Helixed was fine by me under the circumstances.
in response I bolted myself and redirected it to Ajani.
Only opponents may redirect damage to planeswalkers. Imagine Earthquake otherwise. Are you sure this was on Magic Online?
Could you imagine if you could redirect all of the Repercussion damage from a Blasphemous Act to your Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded? Now there's a buff that would get me playing more Planeswalkers in multiplayer!
On the one hand, everyone owns one or three and enjoys playing them. On the other hand; it is not uncommon for one player, we call him Jerk, to have 3+ Planeswalkers active at any given time. Jerk delights in setting them up, taunting us to attack them, while casually activating multiple loyalties each turn. Perversely, Jerk refuses to allow anyone else to have a Planeswalker on the battlefield, signalling that he will destroy, exile, or otherwise hamper any Planeswalker he does not control.
Jerk is awesome at multiplayer, Planeswalkers rarely are. So I don't typically bother with them myself. Unless of course I happen to Blatant Thievery someone's Planeswalker on them.
in response I bolted myself and redirected it to Ajani.
Only opponents may redirect damage to planeswalkers. Imagine Earthquake otherwise. Are you sure this was on Magic Online?
yup it was online. Lol. Guess it was a bug that I benifitted greatly from? I've never come across that situation before or since, so I couldn't tell you if it still works there or not.
my favorite story with planeswalker ultimates is when i was playing mono red (akroma, angel,of fury voltron) and the guy to my right played karn. he plused me, i looked at my hand and passed him my gauntlet of power. everyone else wondered what was in my hand to exile that. the turn went around, and i got plused again. forked over my caged sun. the guy with the karn said he was seriously considering resetting the game for once. i agreed and proceeded to cast word of seizing.
On the one hand, everyone owns one or three and enjoys playing them. On the other hand; it is not uncommon for one player, we call him Jerk, to have 3+ Planeswalkers active at any given time. Jerk delights in setting them up, taunting us to attack them, while casually activating multiple loyalties each turn. Perversely, Jerk refuses to allow anyone else to have a Planeswalker on the battlefield, signalling that he will destroy, exile, or otherwise hamper any Planeswalker he does not control.
Do the other players not make concerted efforts to remove Planeswlakers as well? Why hit a player for 4-5 when you can remove their primary source of card advantage? All things being equal people always target 'Walkers in my experience because it's basically the objectively correct thing to do.
Do the other players not make concerted efforts to remove Planeswlakers as well? Why hit a player for 4-5 when you can remove their primary source of card advantage? All things being equal people always target 'Walkers in my experience because it's basically the objectively correct thing to do.
Sadly no. That duty is almost always left to me, which leaves me open to further attack or exploration. Despite the threat that Planeswalkers represent, few of my mates want to "waste" resources trying to annihilate them, despite how damaging their long-term presence has on the game(s).
Do the other players not make concerted efforts to remove Planeswlakers as well? Why hit a player for 4-5 when you can remove their primary source of card advantage? All things being equal people always target 'Walkers in my experience because it's basically the objectively correct thing to do.
Sadly no. That duty is almost always left to me, which leaves me open to further attack or exploration. Despite the threat that Planeswalkers represent, few of my mates want to "waste" resources trying to annihilate them, despite how damaging their long-term presence has on the game(s).
*grumble*
:<
I take it your meta isn't very creature-based then? "Wasting" an attack phase to remove a "Phyrexian Arena" seems like a no-brainer to me.
Our group plays with them fairly. Except for the former L2 who prefers playing Magic: the Loopholes with them. That gets rather ******* tedious. I don't know why they don't just issue errata here.
I will run them in most decks if they really fit the theme or the mechanic.
My biggest gripe is they seem to like reprinting the same fan favorites over and over again with only minor tweaks between each version. I wish they would branch out more and try new concepts with them.
My biggest gripe is they seem to like reprinting the same fan favorites over and over again with only minor tweaks between each version. I wish they would branch out more and try new concepts with them.
No you're just ignorant. Take the new Walkers for example. They couldn't be more different. For example, Jace's + draws a card, Nahiri's + draws a card and Sorin's + draws a card. You call that "the same"? Please. Moreover, Jace's - kills a creature, Nahiri's - kills a creatures whereas Sorin's - kills a creature. No, but yeah, you're totally right about them being similar /s. Otherwise Jace's ult wins the game, Nahiri's ult wins the game and Sorin's ult wins the game. This is why I hate these forums. You're probably the kind of person who thinks that a card like Ob Nixilis Reignited is similar to card like Jace, Unraveler of Secrets aren't you? Planeswalkers couldn't be more unique if they tried but you still feel the need to hate on them.
I have a weak spot for certain walkers. If there's one on theme for my deck I will try harder to make room for it: blink, artifacts, tokens, blink, ramp, discard, blink, these are all fun to use and proactive threats. Generically 'good' walkers that are card advantage and removal stapled to a permanent never get me as much value as they would in a duel because they have to live through so many more combat steps, amplifying the entire conflict behind a planeswalker's most glaring mechanical weakness. The exception for this philosophy being Chandra, Elspeth and Ugin, whom are not particularly thematic but their board wipe potential vastly outrank things like 5 mana vindicates or 4 mana brainstorms in multiplayer.
Perhaps you should just send WOTC a resume and tell them why you're better at Magic than one of their employees instead of complaining here, where nobody really has any authority on the matter.
I like Planeswalkers but they often get hunted so much that I often question on why I should run them, since while they have multiple effects things like ultimating is rare and the most used ability can often be found on other cards as well, cards which you have more chance of recurring. On the other side any effort put in removing your planeswalker means less damage for you.
I recently added Arlinn Kord to my deck, mostly because of flavor and that her abiliies are in fact great, though I doubt she will get to live a lot. She is currently the only one I run, though toyed with Garruk Wildspeaker in the past.
I take it your meta isn't very creature-based then? "Wasting" an attack phase to remove a "Phyrexian Arena" seems like a no-brainer to me.
Yes and No. I would say that creature decks are more popular overall, but there are a few no-creature decks floating around. Some of my mates having only been playing Magic for a little while now and fear loosing their creatures, or leaving themselves open to attack after targeting a Planeswalker. One player is an infamous Turtle, I don't ever expect an attack to come out from left field despite the small army being assembled. Too bad eh?
Alas, the majority of 'Walker removal falls to me. They should call me the Remover.
On the other side any effort put in removing your planeswalker means less damage for you.
I hear this argument all the time but it seems nonsensical to me. That's true for duels where you only have a single opponent but in MP it's not the case at all. I personally think that there's an extremely low probability that said creature would have attacked [owner of Planeswalker] had they played just about anything else. I feel like people are tricking themselves into thinking that 'Walkers are better than they actually are using those kinds of justifications when in reality had you simply cast a regular creature/draw spell/removal spell/whatever that you would emerged unscathed the overwhelming majority of the time.
You are probably right.
Objectively speaking PW's aren't better than regular good/powerful cards.
They are only good/effective after multiple activations or when you play supporting cards to actively support or break them.
But that is not why I play them.
They are cool.
And some of them are useful besides.
And after jumping through some hoops some have diverse and undeniably powerful effects.
This thread for me is to find out which are not only cool but also are worth it to jump through the hoops for.
Because in a certain way jumping hoops is the essence of the game.
Otherwise we could just throw dice to see who wins.
Maybe with an adjustment the person with the most expensive die.
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My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
You are probably right.
Objectively speaking PW's aren't better than regular good/powerful cards.
They are only good/effective after multiple activations or when you play supporting cards to actively support or break them.
I mean I posted plenty of instances where I personally play Planeswalkers for competitive reasons. My point isn't that their all heinously weak but rather that I don't buy the "they're forms of protection" defense. In a duel sure, your PW taking damage means that you aren't. I routinely see people send 5-8 power at a 2 Loyalty PW (out of necessity, it's the objectively correct attack) in order to take one out. I buy that. In multiplayer I don't believe for a second that you were automatically going to be on the receiving-end of that 5-8 power otherwise. I think that you were attacked because you had a PW and not for any other reason. Had you not played it you probably wouldn't have been trifled with. I'm not saying "there's no possibility that you could have been attacked" but I do think that the person would have taken many variables into consideration. When there's a PW on the table it's an easy, no-brainer move. You kill it because that's the objectively correct play. What's not so easy is figuring out who to attack (of anyone) when there's not something with a giant bull's eye painted on it. This is why I personally think that PWs are mostly trash. All things being equal smart players target them over everything else barring of course instances where they can legitimately take people out. Otherwise it's a choice between dealing damage to someone (when only the last point matters) or removing their long-term card advantage engine. It's a no-brainer.
Some of you like them.
Which ones do you like?
And what is your meta?
My guess is that table size and play style are a big effect on the love for PW's.
To kick off:
My meta is four player FFA, sometimes three player.
We play to win but dislike combo and land destruction.
I like quite a lot of PW's. Some are:
By the way, they hardly ever ultimate, maybe one in eight games.
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
The general rule I would apply to a planeswalker in Multiplayer is that if you're expecting it to ultimate, you're doing it wrong. The good ones in Multiplayer are the ones with useful first or second abilities. If you get to activate them more than twice, you're winning. With that in mind, some of the 'walkers that do well in my meta:
I've also played extensively with Liliana Vess (usually two free tutors), Jace Beleren (often draws a lot of cards), Jace, Memory Adept (dangerous mill levels), Sarkhan Vol (good in a steal and sac deck), Vraska, the Unseen (great when it lands, but an expensive drop for what it does), Ajani Vengeant (really controlly card given its colours), Sorin, Lord of Innistrad (another token spammer), Ajani Goldmane (actually ultimates a lot) and Sorin Markov (great fun, but hurt by its CC).
The only ones I'd really avoid are Chandra Ablaze (too expensive, usually comes down too late for what you want it to do), Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded (good luck to you if you manage to get this working in Multiplayer) and Kiora, the Crashing Wave (really, really fragile, doesn't last long at all).
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Jace, Architect of Thought + Doubling Season = fetch all 4 of your Jaces, ulting them each time. End with Time Stretch or Enter the Infinite putting Beacon of Tomorrows on the top of your library or anything really. Time Stretch has always been good enough for me but YMMV.
Liliana Vess -2 fetching Death Cloud then building towards her ultimate after blowing up the world. Splashing Red for Blasphemous Act helps a lot and so does Toxic Deluge/Massacre. Basically any cheap/free mass removal spell that you can cast alongside Lili is fantastic.
Waste Not/Geth's Grimoire into Liliana of the Veil.
Garruk Wildspeaker/Kiora, the Crashing Wave in Elf decks untapping Gaea's Cradle + Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and/or Voyaging Satyr. Gives you enough mana to go infinite off of Genesis Waveing into Eternal Witness/Skullwinder + a new Garruk/Kiora + recurring the G.Wave with that E.Witness. Cast your whole deck, end with Concordant Crossroads and Craterhoof Behemoth.
Sorin Markov is a house in EDH where he can take someone from 200 to 10 so that you can kill them instantly with a generic threat.
Elspeth, Sun's Champion is an amazing finisher for Control/Armageddon style decks. Turn 5 Wrath of God turn 6 Elspeth turn 7 Sunscour + Armageddon.
Daretti, Scrap Savant combos well with cards like Devastation. Afterwards you recur Ward of Bones and lock people at 1 land. Either that or pair Tangle Wire with Contagion Engine so that no one ever gets to use their mana at Sorcery speed. From there win with Magistrate's Scepter or looping Wurmcoil Engines or whatever.
Teferi, Temporal Archmage is disgusting in Stax decks. Untapping 4 lands/mana producing Artifacts when you have cards like Stasis, Winter Orb, Rising Waters, etc. in play is absurd.
Chandra, Flamecaller is a Slagstorm the turn that she comes into play after which you can Destructive Force the world away and beat people for 6 per circuit with her +1 and/or use her as a Phyrexian Arena to recover faster than everyone else.
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Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Xenagos just entered my To Buy list!
Some of the others I play as well.
Some of the power PW's are like 50 euro or more, alas...
(-:
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
Yeah, good point. That's what makes Xenagos and Sorin, Lord of Innistrad really, really good. Sorin in particular is just an endless stream of annoying tokens. Even Ral Zarek is pretty good in this regard - I know he gets somewhat of a bad rep, and he's not worth too much, but he can at least protect himself and do some shenanigans.
Same in my meta, really. I made the mistake of letting Venser, the Sojourner ultimate once. Never again.
I'm trying to think of the walkers I've actually seen ultimate without the use of Doubling Season in normal Multiplayer (it seems to happen in my cube a bit more often, given it's a Limited environment), and it's a pretty short list. I have a feeling that Garruk, Ajani and Chandra, the Firebrand are the only ones I've actually seen go off in that manner.
Ral Zarek and Sorin, Lord of Innistrad have both been allowed to go off in my cube. In both cases, the opposition waited for it to reach critical mass and then stole it using Blatant Thievery so they could ultimate it. Let me tell you that Blatant Thievery followed by Sorin's ultimate = wreckage. Blatant Thievery on Ral Zarek for three extra turns, followed up by an overloaded Cyclonic Rift on the first extra turn is something not too far off the same.
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I had someone try and do this sort of thing to me in a MOCS. I was on UWr Control, and got Ajani Vengeant up to 7 loyalty. My opponent cast Catch on his next main phase (playing a janky Dominus of Fealty brew), but in response I bolted myself and redirected it to Ajani. Getting Lightning Helixed was fine by me under the circumstances.
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I do not play Doubling.
I do proliferate but the right balance between walkers, defense and proliferate cards is hard.
Apart from Kiora I've had all my PW's ultimate.
But only Garruk with any regularity.
(And I screwed up my coin tosses on Ral Zarek which I also play and enjoy.)
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
Could you imagine if you could redirect all of the Repercussion damage from a Blasphemous Act to your Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded? Now there's a buff that would get me playing more Planeswalkers in multiplayer!
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
On the one hand, everyone owns one or three and enjoys playing them. On the other hand; it is not uncommon for one player, we call him Jerk, to have 3+ Planeswalkers active at any given time. Jerk delights in setting them up, taunting us to attack them, while casually activating multiple loyalties each turn. Perversely, Jerk refuses to allow anyone else to have a Planeswalker on the battlefield, signalling that he will destroy, exile, or otherwise hamper any Planeswalker he does not control.
Jerk is awesome at multiplayer, Planeswalkers rarely are. So I don't typically bother with them myself. Unless of course I happen to Blatant Thievery someone's Planeswalker on them.
My Powered 610 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
Do the other players not make concerted efforts to remove Planeswlakers as well? Why hit a player for 4-5 when you can remove their primary source of card advantage? All things being equal people always target 'Walkers in my experience because it's basically the objectively correct thing to do.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
*grumble*
:<
I take it your meta isn't very creature-based then? "Wasting" an attack phase to remove a "Phyrexian Arena" seems like a no-brainer to me.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I will run them in most decks if they really fit the theme or the mechanic.
My biggest gripe is they seem to like reprinting the same fan favorites over and over again with only minor tweaks between each version. I wish they would branch out more and try new concepts with them.
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No you're just ignorant. Take the new Walkers for example. They couldn't be more different. For example, Jace's + draws a card, Nahiri's + draws a card and Sorin's + draws a card. You call that "the same"? Please. Moreover, Jace's - kills a creature, Nahiri's - kills a creatures whereas Sorin's - kills a creature. No, but yeah, you're totally right about them being similar /s. Otherwise Jace's ult wins the game, Nahiri's ult wins the game and Sorin's ult wins the game. This is why I hate these forums. You're probably the kind of person who thinks that a card like Ob Nixilis Reignited is similar to card like Jace, Unraveler of Secrets aren't you? Planeswalkers couldn't be more unique if they tried but you still feel the need to hate on them.
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Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I recently added Arlinn Kord to my deck, mostly because of flavor and that her abiliies are in fact great, though I doubt she will get to live a lot. She is currently the only one I run, though toyed with Garruk Wildspeaker in the past.
Alas, the majority of 'Walker removal falls to me. They should call me the Remover.
I hear this argument all the time but it seems nonsensical to me. That's true for duels where you only have a single opponent but in MP it's not the case at all. I personally think that there's an extremely low probability that said creature would have attacked [owner of Planeswalker] had they played just about anything else. I feel like people are tricking themselves into thinking that 'Walkers are better than they actually are using those kinds of justifications when in reality had you simply cast a regular creature/draw spell/removal spell/whatever that you would emerged unscathed the overwhelming majority of the time.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Objectively speaking PW's aren't better than regular good/powerful cards.
They are only good/effective after multiple activations or when you play supporting cards to actively support or break them.
But that is not why I play them.
They are cool.
And some of them are useful besides.
And after jumping through some hoops some have diverse and undeniably powerful effects.
This thread for me is to find out which are not only cool but also are worth it to jump through the hoops for.
Because in a certain way jumping hoops is the essence of the game.
Otherwise we could just throw dice to see who wins.
Maybe with an adjustment the person with the most expensive die.
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
I mean I posted plenty of instances where I personally play Planeswalkers for competitive reasons. My point isn't that their all heinously weak but rather that I don't buy the "they're forms of protection" defense. In a duel sure, your PW taking damage means that you aren't. I routinely see people send 5-8 power at a 2 Loyalty PW (out of necessity, it's the objectively correct attack) in order to take one out. I buy that. In multiplayer I don't believe for a second that you were automatically going to be on the receiving-end of that 5-8 power otherwise. I think that you were attacked because you had a PW and not for any other reason. Had you not played it you probably wouldn't have been trifled with. I'm not saying "there's no possibility that you could have been attacked" but I do think that the person would have taken many variables into consideration. When there's a PW on the table it's an easy, no-brainer move. You kill it because that's the objectively correct play. What's not so easy is figuring out who to attack (of anyone) when there's not something with a giant bull's eye painted on it. This is why I personally think that PWs are mostly trash. All things being equal smart players target them over everything else barring of course instances where they can legitimately take people out. Otherwise it's a choice between dealing damage to someone (when only the last point matters) or removing their long-term card advantage engine. It's a no-brainer.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold