I'm pretty new to the Magic scene, and this is my first deck help post, so please don't kill me.
I've been doing chaos games with a group of friends (3 to 4 players) who have played since--geez, I don't even know, but I don't have a card collection that could hold a candle to theirs'. Usually I'll play with their FAT decks--over 100 cards in some of these crazy towers they like to screw around with. The usual meta breaks down like this: one dude runs with a green/blue Eldrazi deck. One plays Mono White with luminarch ascension and removal such as oblivion ring and journey to nowhere. The last guy--the one who paid for a few semesters of college with his magic tournament winnings--runs with either an artifact deck with all the good stuff or this evil stack of irritating mill cards.
Now I'm trying to build something that can contend in this no-banned-cards format. I decided to stick to 60 cards because a) I don't want to need to buy a million cards for one deck and b) I don't see the benefit in not getting to draw what you want--other than mill defense I guess?
I haven't tested this out, but I already fear it has problems. Should I include direct answers for luminarch ascension ? Are there affordable cards that will protect my enchantments? Is my win condition reasonably achievable in a four/five player game?
I'll try to take a better look at your list a little later on, but the lack of a playset of Waste Not in your multiplayer discard deck is the most glaring omission for now. Casting spells like Dark Deal and Delirium Skeins with Waste Not in play gets out of hand pretty quicky.
Also, if you go that route and build your deck to completely remove your opponents' hands early in the game, you could use Noetic Scales to keep creatures at bay instead of devoting 14 slots to creature hate.
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Wow! Didn't know Noetic Scales existed. Thanks! I'll probably put in at least two of those instead of Tainted Aether or Lethal Vapors. I do have Waste Not, but my issue with it is the order in which things happen. I've found that I draw cards like Liliana's Caress when my opponent is already topdecking.
Ohh, Abyssal Gatekeeper will have a home in this deck, maybe in place of Liliana's Caress. Thanks! I feel you with Painful Quandary. Right now, I feel it will help close out games that have been all but locked down, but I agree that the cost is too high for this card to really see some action. It's the kind of thing that I'll probably take out once it screws me enough times. Thanks for the tip with Prid3. I checked out the post and it gave me a lot to think about. I'll be staying away from Ensnaring Bridge for now because I like the card advantage provided by Syphon Mind and Geth's Grimoire, but I'll definitely be using Noetic Scales to replace Barter in Blood. I'm also thinking of cutting one Doom Blade, the Dark Deal, and both Noxious Toad for 4 Smallpox because I love the two-for-one. If I did that, I'd probably lose Lethal Vapors for two more Tainted Aether;Lands will be harder to come by, and players will be less likely to sacrifice them.
I do have Waste Not, but my issue with it is the order in which things happen. I've found that I draw cards like Liliana's Caress when my opponent is already topdecking.
Alright, we need to have a bit of sit down my friend. Cards are banned and restricted for one of 3 reasons; they produce too much mana too quickly, they produce too much card advantage/selection for too little mana or they enable degenerate combo kills. Exceptions exist but by and large those are the most problematic cards in the game. Why am I pointing this out? Waste Not is a 2 mana spell that, on turn 2-3, draws 20 cards, produces 20 mana and combo kills the entire table. If you had to put it on a tier list it would be in some Omega level towering high above pathetic S class bombs such as Luminarch Ascension. I'm not exaggerating either; if anyone ever made a serious multiplayer banned/restricted list this would be one of the first cards on it.
You talk about order of operations, I ask "so what?" In multiplayer you get a free mulligan and going down to 6 is no big deal. 7-7-6 is 20 cards that you get to see for free and all you need is a single Waste Not to enable turn 2-3 wins. I say turn 2 because Gemstone Caverns is something that anyone can play in their decks and turn 1 Waste Not turn 2 Dark Deal is a game win. Black can also play Dark Ritual which makes sense when you deck has cards like Waste Not, Syphon Mind and Geth's Grimoire. 2-for-1ing yourself sucks in theory but in practice it's meaningless when your deck is filled with draw7s. Obviously cards like Chrome Mox and Lotus Petal also exist and, again, cards like Chrome Mox are fine when your gameplan involves drawing obscene amounts of cards. Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Consultation, Serum Powder, it's incredibly easy to enable turn 1-2 Waste Nots and unless it gets removed right then and there the game just ends.
So yeah, this is my way of saying "play 4 and thank me later."
With respect to the rest of the deck, I might recommend something close to:
A core close to this. You could always run Swamps over Gemstone Caverns but play them if you own them. Anyways, that leaves you 12 slots for fast mana, removal, discard, combo enablers, win conditions whatever you want.
Thanks for the advice, man! Very helpful, and I do think most of your changes are objectively better in terms of success rate. I absolutely LOVE what you do with Gemstone Caverns/Waste Not, and I hadn't thought about using 7/7/6 to search for a specific hand. My first thought is why only two Noetic Scales? My instinct tells me to operate with a full playset, but you obviously don't see this as worth it. Any particular reason?
My second comment is a bit more complicated and has more to do with the current table's meta. The dudes I play with have thrown together massive decks with the intention of playing long games--hence why I included two Elixir of Immortality. My fear is that by playing such an aggressive turn 2 win with little lategame potential is going to either aggravate them to the point where I won't be able to play this deck very often, or (far more likely) our groups' meta will change so that two turn win combos are the norm--which seems less fun. I didn't really realize that this was a constraint until I saw your badass decklist, which... presents me with an interesting problem I suppose.
Definitely buying 4 Gemstone Caverns, and I'll probably put 4 Waste Not/Dark Deal in my sideboard for when I just want to win--or if one of them decides to play with a faster deck--but for now let's say I want things to hit at least turn 5. One of the main reasons I was attracted to discard was the idea of a long, frustrating path to defeat for my friends. To revise my initial statement, I'm now looking for an annoying, draining path to victory. Say I want a Shrieking Affliction, Wheel of Torture, Quest for the Nihil Stone type of victory--a bleed em' dry build full of frustrating cards like Noetic Scales.
You had said that Shrieking Affliction was much better than other similar cards. Why do you feel this way? Any suggestions on how effectively lock my opponents at 0 cards while still retaining serious card advantage?
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My first thought is why only two Noetic Scales? My instinct tells me to operate with a full playset, but you obviously don't see this as worth it. Any particular reason?
The deck already has a whack of 4 drops that don't affect the board. At some point you need to play cards that actually "do something." You can tinker around with the numbers and run whatever you want, just make sure that your deck doesn't fall flat on its face because it's too slow out of the gates.
My second comment is a bit more complicated and has more to do with the current table's meta. The dudes I play with have thrown together massive decks with the intention of playing long games--hence why I included two Elixir of Immortality.
That card is incredibly overrated. The only reason to field it would be if you were worried about Waste Not decking yourself. Otherwise you're just paying 3 mana to gain 5 life and that's not remotely playable. The math behind "stacking your deck with good draws" is way worse than it seems. In non-Waste Not versions of the deck I would never field them.
My fear is that by playing such an aggressive turn 2 win with little lategame potential is going to either aggravate them to the point where I won't be able to play this deck very often, or (far more likely) our groups' meta will change so that two turn win combos are the norm--which seems less fun. I didn't really realize that this was a constraint until I saw your badass decklist, which... presents me with an interesting problem I suppose.
The deck doesn't have to win on turn 2, it just can. I just wanted to highlight why the card is freaking broken and why you shouldn't care about drawing it at inopportune times. If you don't want to play for it for power-level reasons, that's fine, I just refuse to accept that it might not be powerful enough to make the cut. It's easily one of the most overpowered spells in the game in a multiplayer setting.
The main thing that your list is lacking is 4x Necrogen Mists to lock people at 0 cards. One-and-done discard is fine but it can only take you far, especially against draw spells.
You had said that Shrieking Affliction was much better than other similar cards. Why do you feel this way? Any suggestions on how effectively lock my opponents at 0 cards while still retaining serious card advantage?
The reason why Shreiking Affliction and Wheel of Torture are so much better than the alternatives is because they can be cast at any time. With Megrim effects you must draw and resolve them first, have them survive and force people with cards in hand to discard them. That is, a lot has to go right. With SA and WoT you can lock the board with removal, Necrogen Mists and Noetic Scales first and worry about winning later. Eventually you can stick an Affliction and drain people down but it's more of an after-thought than anything else. There's no pressure to stick your do-nothing win condition over jamming removal, draw spells, discard, etc. to advance your gameplan. You can cast them whenever it's convenient and they'll get the job done.
Uhm... The Elixirs aren't that bad.
If you draw/play a lot of cards the repeatable shuffle effect is the reason for playing it.
The 5 live is just gravy.
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In magic there's Harry Dresden, Fizban, Sethra Lavode, Dorotea Senjak and me...
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
That card is incredibly overrated. The only reason to field it would be if you were worried about Waste Not decking yourself. Otherwise you're just paying 3 mana to gain 5 life and that's not remotely playable. The math behind "stacking your deck with good draws" is way worse than it seems. In non-Waste Not versions of the deck I would never field them.
Uhm... The Elixirs aren't that bad.
If you draw/play a lot of cards the repeatable shuffle effect is the reason for playing it.
The 5 live is just gravy.
I think this depends on the meta of your table. I have no doubt that Elixir of Immortality will benefit me because...
a)One of our players usually runs mill.
b)I'll be discarding from my own hand after I incorporate Bottomless Pit or Necrogen Mists
c)Most of our games span FAR beyond the "normal" length of magic games, and their decks are built to be massive in size to withstand that. Mine is not. Elixir is a band-aid for this.
Yes, there are far better solutions to mill, but Elixir fits my needs for the time being. Perhaps later, I'll splash white for better burn/mill/creature protection via Ivory MaskGhostly PrisonWrath of GodDay of Judgment etc. but I'm not messing around with another color--for now.
Okay, now...
I'll likely go with Waste Not... We kind of play Magic to make each other suffer--to the point that I want to add a Winter Orb, and I'll get a good amount of satisfaction from blowing them up on turn 2-3. One problem is that I don't (yet) have any Gemstone Caverns. Does that make your planned combo less advantageous, or can I get away with 3 say...Dark Rituals? I own those right now. I'm going to put out an updated deck list very soon, but I have a few questions first.
How does everything fit?
With only 12 slots remaining in Prid3's initial suggestion, Where does that leave me with targeted removal, mass removal, creatures, constant discard and win conditions--other than the Waste Not combo? You've said that this deck doesn't need to win on turn 2, it just can. Is my only path to victory Waste Not? Do I lose the option to lock at 0 and bleed em' out?
How good is Mindslicer?
I like being able to drop him with Innocent Blood or any other creature destruction once I've got my pain set up, but does he bite me in the butt too hard? Is he too expensive for his effect?
Tainted Aether, Lethal Vapors or none of the above?
I love this type of strong control effect, but I have yet to test out it's effectiveness in multiplayer. My first thought is Lethal Vapors as people will be afraid to lose a turn in a multiplayer game, but, if they do skip, they'll avoid the turn-based damage brought by Wheel of Torture/Shrieking Affliction. Then I think of Tainted Aether combined with all those Smallpox. Are these cards overkill, considering I'm planning on including Noetic Scales?
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I think this depends on the meta of your table. I have no doubt that Elixir of Immortality will benefit me because...
a)One of our players usually runs mill.
b)I'll be discarding from my own hand after I incorporate Bottomless Pit or Necrogen Mists
c)Most of our games span FAR beyond the "normal" length of magic games, and their decks are built to be massive in size to withstand that. Mine is not. Elixir is a band-aid for this.
Yes, there are far better solutions to mill, but Elixir fits my needs for the time being. Perhaps later, I'll splash white for better burn/mill/creature protection via Ivory MaskGhostly PrisonWrath of GodDay of Judgment etc. but I'm not messing around with another color--for now.
A) Mill is a burn deck that needs to do 40 damage in order to win. Your deck can produce 100 power on turn 3. You do the math on who wins the race.
B) You're also drawing a ton of cards with WN, Geth's Grimoire and Syphon Mind.
C) I think you underestimate how big 60 card decks are. I've played some very long Limited games (Cube draft) with Mind's Eye in play and I've still never decked myself.
If you want to run them, that's fine, I can just guarantee that they're not nearly as good as you think. The only legitimate reason to play them (in my mind) is if you're worried about Waste Not decking you. Then I'd play 1-2.
I'll likely go with Waste Not... We kind of play Magic to make each other suffer--to the point that I want to add a Winter Orb, and I'll get a good amount of satisfaction from blowing them up on turn 2-3. One problem is that I don't (yet) have any Gemstone Caverns. Does that make your planned combo less advantageous, or can I get away with 3 say...Dark Rituals? I own those right now. I'm going to put out an updated deck list very soon, but I have a few questions first.
The deck doesn't need Caverns in order to operate. It just means that you'll never go off on turn 2 and so you might have to play around Oblivion Ring. That is, you might want to wait until you can Dark Ritual a Waste Not and Dark Deal on the same turn before you "go for it." After all, if you just slam a turn 2 WN and it gets O-Ringed then you'll be real sad.
How does everything fit?
With only 12 slots remaining in Prid3's initial suggestion, Where does that leave me with targeted removal, mass removal, creatures, constant discard and win conditions--other than the Waste Not combo? You've said that this deck doesn't need to win on turn 2, it just can. Is my only path to victory Waste Not? Do I lose the option to lock at 0 and bleed em' out?
Nope, it's just a weaker alternative so it gets less emphasis. You can still play cards like Shrieking Affliction and Necrogen Mists, there's just no real reason to play copies of any win condition before maxing out on WN because it's many orders of magnitude more powerful than the alternatives. Still, you can always play 4x WN and 2-4x Shrieking Affliction if you want.
How good is Mindslicer?
I like being able to drop him with Innocent Blood or any other creature destruction once I've got my pain set up, but does he bite me in the butt too hard? Is he too expensive for his effect?
I have a love-hate relationship with Mindslicer. It was the first card that I ever bought as a 4-of and for the past 14 years I've been on-and-off playing him in my decks. On the one hand he's very good at beating opponents trying to do unfair things because losing your entire hand is game-losing for combo/control strategies. The problem is that he's bad against creature-based decks because if you fall behind on board then losing your own hand is a death sentence. You'll just get beaten down and killed. As such I can't provide you with a definitive answer because I don't have one. I really like the card against unfair, uninteractive strategies but if you're getting beaten down by creatures then he's garbage. It just depends on your meta and what people are playing.
Tainted Aether, Lethal Vapors or none of the above?
I love this type of strong control effect, but I have yet to test out it's effectiveness in multiplayer. My first thought is Lethal Vapors as people will be afraid to lose a turn in a multiplayer game, but, if they do skip, they'll avoid the turn-based damage brought by Wheel of Torture/Shrieking Affliction. Then I think of Tainted Aether combined with all those Smallpox. Are these cards overkill, considering I'm planning on including Noetic Scales?
They're more 4 mana cards that don't do anything. The problem with Black decks is that you have trillions of powerful 4 drops available to you but you can only afford to play so many and at some point you have to be able to interact with what other people are doing. If people just jam creatures on turns 2 and 3 and turn them sideways then you're just screwed if you try and curve Liliana's Caress into Dark Deal into Tainted Aether. Yeah, sure, you dealt damage and pissed everyone off but you still lose the game because you never affected the board. That's why Waste Not is so powerful. It's a win condition that provides you with a giant army of zombies to battle with in addition to being a broken combo enabler. You won't go turn 2 WN turn 3 Dark Deal every game but even a Smallpox or Pox follow-up will clear the board and provide some card advantage. This is also why I like Dark Ritual; sometimes you just Ritual out a Geth's Grimoire on turn 2 (you don't draw WN every game obviously) at which point all of your Smallpoxes and such are that much less scary. Everyone is going to be down a land and you'll be ahead on cards and sometimes you can just kill someone with a weak draw outright. Some people get stuck on lands and losing them to Smallpox and Pox can be devastating. It obviously hurts you too but you'll never miss a land drop and Waste Not usually provides a ton of mana itself so it's basically never a serious problem for you.
I want to stress how good Dark Ritual is by the way. If you want to run a whack of "do nothing" 4 drops then please cast them on turn 2 as opposed to turn 4. Tainted Aether is pretty bad if people already have a bunch of stuff in play but casting it on turn 1-2 (turn 1 requires Gemstone Caverns obviously) is pretty sweet. I know that losing a card sucks but remember that you play Waste Not, Geth's Grimoire, Syphon Mind, etc. for a reason and so don't worry about 2-for-1ing yourself early on. You'll more than make up for it once you get your draw engines online.
Again, thanks for the feedback! I got a chance to play a modified rendition of this deck with my group, and the result of the first game was... pretty fantastic; I got all the outrage and suffering I wanted from WN+DD, and I pulled out a win, but man were they pissed by game two. I had heard that discard players are usually targeted over other players, but WOW. Holy targeting, Batman! Creatures could not touch me, but I got hit hard by mill/burn. There are clearly some more adjustments I should make. Here's an updated deck list that includes much of the feedback I've received + some counters for problems I faced while playing this deck. It's not complete, as I'm over by two cards and would still like to fit in at least another Dark Deal, but here's where my brain is stuck:
Another card I would have liked to include was Abyssal Gatekeeper, but there's just no room. Also, milling myself is a serious danger; with just one Waste Not I almost decked myself. I'm aware that I can forgo the draws provided by Geth's Grimoire, but it's hard to say no to EXACTLY what you need from your deck. Because I'll now be running with 4 Waste Not, I was considering removing Geth's Grimoire for two Witchbane Orbs, forgetting about Orb of Warding and leaving myself at 2 Dark Deal--at least for when I'm up against mill/burn. For whatever reason, this crew uses "Target Player" effects, so Witchbane Orb will probably get me pretty far...
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What sort of effects are you trying to stop with the Witchbane Orbs? If it's mainly just mill that you need to worry about, and also depending on your budget, you could also just include a single Eldrazi to shuffle your grave back into your deck. They don't care if they get discarded or milled, you just shuffle your entire yard back in. Hard to mill yourself or get milled by someone else with a mill deck when you have one in the deck. This would let you drop the Elixir of Immortality and the Witchbane Orb(s) for a single card, but I do understand they're a bit pricey, even after the release of MM2. If you splurge for an Emrakul, the Aeons Torn though, that's the type of card that will probably bring you joy in many a deck for some time I also don't see it losing value anytime soon.
Another option you could consider testing if you want to protect yourself against more than just mill, and this assumes you have some decent lands to support it, would be to run white. Leyline of Sanctity has come down a lot in price and should remain a tournament staple for some time, so now could be a decent time to pick them up if they might also serve you in another deck/game setting at some point down the road. Starting with this in play for free some % of the time is better than having to get to 4 mana and spend it on an orb. But it does still feel like a "sideboard" card to me, unless your meta is really that chock full of player-targeting spells. Playing white does also mean you have access to the best targeted removal in the game in Swords to Plowshares, if that's any good in your meta. The upsides over Go For the Throat is that it can of course hit stuff like Wurmcoil Engine and Blightsteel Colossus all day. You could maybe even run a few Flagstones of Trokair to sac to your Smallpoxes, etc. Anyway, not sure it's worth going into another colour, but I'm just throwing out ideas.
How does the curve feel to you with your 22 lands (+2 rits)? I would think that there will be games where you'll have an early Smallpox or two to cast, and then proceed to draw into your 4/5 drops... I mean, if you have Waste Not in play, you're probably doing fine for mana but then again if you have Waste Not in play, you're probably winning so the point is kinda moot. It's when someone blows it up or you don't see one early enough in the game that might cause a bit of awkwardness, I think. Personally, I prefer to keep the curve as low as possible in these types of decks because I think speed kills, given how large a target you paint on your head when people see what you're playing. You could replace the Geth's Grimoire with Dream Salvage for example. It favours more of a "burst-y" approach than the grimoire, but I think that's where this deck really starts to shine anyway. I personally run 12 discard-3 spells in my list (Delirium Skeins and Burning Inquiry in addition to DD) and I think they are quite a bit more effective with a Waste Not in play than the one-shot Bottomless Pit type cards. That said, maybe that's going too far in a different direction for you or you're trying to make use of cards you already own. And if so, I totally respect that, I'm just speaking from my experiences with my own WN deck.
The 1-of Winter Orb seems a bit random to me. No tutors to find it, and to me, that's the type of card you want to consistently play earlier in the game, in a deck that's built to make it less symmetrical (like an Elf deck that runs mana dorks, Gaea's Cradles, and 3-4 Orbs or whatever). Again, sure it's good with Waste Not and a constant discard effect to generate mana for you, but there are a lot of options that are really good with WN. If you're opponents don't have any cards in hand, and their creatures they draw and play immediately just get sacced or bounced before they can attack, what's it saving you from? Nasty top-decked spells? If those are more common in your meta and you're finding that the drawback isn't hard for you to work around, maybe it's worth increasing the number? Winter Orb is an incredibly powerful card, that's for certain.
Lastly, I'm not sure I'm a huge fan of the Mindslicers... how are they working for you? I would think you'd ideally want to play one when you have the ability to follow it up with an Innocent Blood or Smallpox. The longer you have to leave it in play to wait for the timing to be right for you, the longer your opponents have to plan for it or draw into a Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile and just deal with it once and for all. It's not like you can respond and kill it at instant speed with a sac effect (outside of GftT). I would run Delirium Skeins or even Ill-Gotten Gains over the slicers, personally.
Anyway, long post is long. Hope that gives you some ideas! Glad to hear that the deck is working well enough for you so far, but now that the cat's out of the bag, you can expect that your opponents will make things harder for you in subsequent games with the deck
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What sort of effects are you trying to stop with the Witchbane Orbs? If it's mainly just mill that you need to worry about, and also depending on your budget, you could also just include a single Eldrazi to shuffle your grave back into your deck. They don't care if they get discarded or milled, you just shuffle your entire yard back in. Hard to mill yourself or get milled by someone else with a mill deck when you have one in the deck. This would let you drop the Elixir of Immortality and the Witchbane Orb(s) for a single card, but I do understand they're a bit pricey, even after the release of MM2. If you splurge for an Emrakul, the Aeons Torn though, that's the type of card that will probably bring you joy in many a deck for some time I also don't see it losing value anytime soon.
It's also worth noting that Emrakul is just strictly better than all the alternatives because casting him off of WN mana is trivial and giving your 2/2 zombie army "Haste" is massive. The best versions of this deck would always run 1 anyways. Still, pricetag...
Lastly, I'm not sure I'm a huge fan of the Mindslicers... how are they working for you? I would think you'd ideally want to play one when you have the ability to follow it up with an Innocent Blood or Smallpox. The longer you have to leave it in play to wait for the timing to be right for you, the longer your opponents have to plan for it or draw into a Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile and just deal with it once and for all. It's not like you can respond and kill it at instant speed with a sac effect (outside of GftT). I would run Delirium Skeins or even Ill-Gotten Gains over the slicers, personally.
Mindslicer is very good against combo decks like burn and mill that don't rely on creatures in order to win. Pitching your hand is trivial in a deck with WN/Geth's Grimoire/Syphon Mind but a mill/burn deck losing its hand is GG. So far he hasn't alluded to his meta being especially creature-heavy which makes these types of threats absolutely stellar. As long as you're not massively behind on board when he dies then a Mindslicer + Necrogen Mists "lock" is extremely difficult for combo/control decks to beat.
What sort of effects are you trying to stop with the Witchbane Orbs?
It's more than mill--from one player's dumb Honden deck (discard/burn) to another players comet storm build, it just ranges. Funnily enough, I never really read the Eldrazi shuffle effect close enough to realize your entire graveyard was shuffled, not just the one card. So utility. Very annihilator. Wow. I've always wanted to play around with those cards, but the price tag is a bit too much for me atm. That'll probably change come February, but for now, budget it is!
Another option you could consider testing if you want to protect yourself against more than just mill, and this assumes you have some decent lands to support it, would be to run white. Leyline of Sanctity has come down a lot in price and should remain a tournament staple for some time, so now could be a decent time to pick them up if they might also serve you in another deck/game setting at some point down the road. Starting with this in play for free some % of the time is better than having to get to 4 mana and spend it on an orb. But it does still feel like a "sideboard" card to me, unless your meta is really that chock full of player-targeting spells. Playing white does also mean you have access to the best targeted removal in the game in Swords to Plowshares, if that's any good in your meta. The upsides over Go For the Throat is that it can of course hit stuff like Wurmcoil Engine and Blightsteel Colossus all day. You could maybe even run a few Flagstones of Trokair to sac to your Smallpoxes, etc. Anyway, not sure it's worth going into another colour, but I'm just throwing out ideas.
And they're all good ideas! My favorite suggestion is Flagstones of Trokair, and I'm wondering if there's a black equivalent. Why not white you ask? It's not that I'm not interested--in an earlier post I mused about the possibilities of white--but it's more of a budget thing for now; undoubtedly Leyline of Sanctity rocks Witchbane Orbs world, but not enough to justify the $$ presently, you know? Esp when I can fish out whatever the heck I want from my deck; when I drop a Dark Deal I'm pulling 20 cards easily, so it's not really an issue.
In terms of Winter Orb, in part, it's just to be "that guy" to get a rise out of my friends, but it's also what Prid3 said, locking down the game when I've got the upper hand. Say I've got my discard and draw engines going. I don't really need lands to win. With Bottomless Pit/Necrogen Mists and WN/SA, I get stuff and they get the shaft. I'd like to play with more, but a) WHERE DOES IT FIT? b) they're around 5 bucks a pop nowadays, so I'd like to find a place for them before purchasing, and things are tight as is.
One thing though, everyone keeps on talking about all the mana this combo will generate, but, honestly, I have not gotten it--even when I get DD off by turn 3. I'm usually facing 3 opponents, so does that change things? Has anyone actually played this combo before because I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong. I'll usually catch a stray mana from one unlucky sucker, but that's it. This is why I sprang for a few Gemstone Caverns.
You also asked how Mindslicer is doing. I'd have to say pretty great. 5 mana gets rid of everyone's hand and everyone sacrifices a creature with Innocent Blood, and the trick is that I ALWAYS have what I need because I'm drawing, like... 20 or more cards off of spells plus the consistent discard. Because of this, Elixir of Immortality really has to stay.
Delirium Skeins may actually take the place of a few Syphon Minds, as my draw engine is already pretty stupid, and I have to play something to win eventually, right?
All that said, I'm still at a loss for making it all fit. I'll get there eventually though...
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One thing though, everyone keeps on talking about all the mana this combo will generate, but, honestly, I have not gotten it--even when I get DD off by turn 3. I'm usually facing 3 opponents, so does that change things? Has anyone actually played this combo before because I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong. I'll usually catch a stray mana from one unlucky sucker, but that's it.
I mean I don't see how you're drawing 20+ cards off of Waste Not but are only managing to generate a couple of stray mana. Decks are like 40% lands (24/60) which would represent 8/20 cards which would mean that your 20 card WN combos should generate an average of 16 mana. Really though, all you need is to generate 4 and from there you should be able to chain into another Dark Deal/Delirium Skeins/Pox/Smallpox/Ill-Gotten Gains to keep the combo going. That's a mere quarter of the average. I'm not saying that you're lying or anything but from a purely mathematical perspective it doesn't make much sense for you to be drawing 20+ cards without generating a great deal of mana in the process.
All that said, I'm still at a loss for making it all fit. I'll get there eventually though...
You're probably thinking bout this deck all wrong. Trying to optimize it is kind of pointless. Investing real money into it is equally pointless. This is the best thing that you can possibly be doing by a large margin. It makes most Vintage decks look tame by comparison. Budget versions of the deck win on turn 3 and optimized lists seal the deal on 2 virtually every time. Those are not real numbers; that's just moronic. This cannot become the "norm" because there's no way for anyone at your table to compete with it. Even if they team up on you it won't matter. They'll have to build very bad hate decks just to survive and that won't be fun for anyone.
Rather, I think that you should think of Waste Not as a fun "every now and then" deck and not one that you whip out each and every time that you play. It's too much better than anything else that you could doing on a similar budget. Consistently winning the game on turn 3 with a $40.00 deck just isn't remotely acceptable.
Hey man, I totally get the budget thing. I wasn't sure what your budget was, only that you "didn't want to buy a million cards for the deck" lol. Also had no idea what your card pool consists of, so that also makes suggesting cards challenging at times as well. But anyway, Prid3's spot-on in that you don't need to invest big dollars into the deck to make it incredibly (and oppressively) strong. In fact, the quantity of cards you need to buy to make this deck very strong shouldn't matter too much (outside of local availability, if that's even a concern). Some of the strongest cards you can put into this deck are terrible in competitive formats, so they literally cost pennies.
On the mana production:
On paper, it doesn't look to me like your deck is really setup to consistently generate insane amounts of mana in bursts like some other WN lists. Rather, I see that you would have some occasional spikes of mana production, but you've passed up on some burst potential with some of your card choices and so you see more occasions where you "generate 2 mana on player B's turn", then "generate 2 more mana on player C's turn", that type of thing. Maybe I'm completely out to lunch (I have not played the deck), but I guess I just don't really see a high degree of "chainability" in the deck. And that's fine... It could be a slower, more grindy deck (and probably way more frustrating for your opponents to play against too :)), but maybe that's a factor in your observation regarding mana production.
For what it's worth, in my experience (playing against 3 other people 90% of the time), I've been able to draw and play basically my entire deck fairly consistently on turn 3 in most of my games. BUT, I've gone all-in on the WN plan, choosing to field a critical mass of discard-3 spells, fast mana, tutors and free mulligan-producers to maximize my odds of getting the WN into play and then chaining those discard-3 spells into one another. I also run red in my list because Burning Inquiry is too good to pass up, IMO. I've found that the fact that it draws people cards when their hands are empty is incredibly relevant in this "chaining" process. Anyway, I'll post the list in case it gives you an idea or two, or if you decide to give it a goldfish on Cockatrice for funsies.
@Prid3, I think you actually just explained why I'm not getting the mana I was expecting: user error. I haven't been chaining into the next discard set--mainly due to being overwhelmed with all the cards and being a newer player--so I've been allowing them to drop what they're holding before I force another discard. Because of the turn 3, instead of turn 2 (I've only just now added gemstone and dark ritual) Most of them have hit their drops in the first hand, and I've been letting them hit the 4th drop because I don't force another discard on turn 3, missing out on all the lands they've just pulled after Dark Deal. Thanks! I'm a bit confused when you said that "Budget versions of the deck win on turn 3 and optimized lists seal the deal on 2 virtually every time. Those are not real numbers; that's just moronic." Could you clarify?
In terms of the rest of what you said, yeah I agree. I just wanted something pretty solid as my first creation--something I can differ to when things get STOOPID at the table, but I'm working on other deck ideas now. Really want to thank you for the input! This thread probably coming to a close soon, but I just wanted to ask one last thing about Bottomless Pit vs Necrogen Mists. What makes Mists so much better in your mind? I understand that I'm playing a control build, and I need the right cards, but once my discard engine is in place and I have a ton of ways to draw, what's the harm in making them lose a random card instead of one they choose? Isn't it more likely that they'll try to hold onto the answer for the situation they're in? Once I play WN + a constant discard effect, I'm going to be up by two cards at least, so I feel like I'll be alright with taking the random hit, whereas they're in a jam, so they won't. What am I overlooking?
@Cloudkick3r, I completely get where you're coming from in terms of the ambiguity of "budget", and I may at some point splurge for those cards, so your post was pretty helpful. Also, that deck list is beastly! I respect your love affair with Burning Inquiry--it's a zombie/mana/draw generator for just R. Do you usually win with Exsanguinate or your hoards of undead?
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I'm a bit confused when you said that "Budget versions of the deck win on turn 3 and optimized lists seal the deal on 2 virtually every time. Those are not real numbers; that's just moronic." Could you clarify?
No one but you can have fun if you're playing a deck that wins on turn 2-3 and they're all playing decks that win on turns 10+. What you're doing is just so much better to the point where it trivializes their actions/decisions/cards. Nothing that they do actually matters; it's like watching one guy play Solitaire. Since Magic, like most games, is more about having a good time with your friends/other like-minded individuals it doesn't make sense to optimize these kinds of lists.
This thread probably coming to a close soon, but I just wanted to ask one last thing about Bottomless Pit vs Necrogen Mists. What makes Mists so much better in your mind? I understand that I'm playing a control build, and I need the right cards, but once my discard engine is in place and I have a ton of ways to draw, what's the harm in making them lose a random card instead of one they choose?
There's no way to say this without sounding conceited but it's the only answer that I can give. Given the choice of having everyone make decisions or everyone be subjected to RNG I'd always select the former because I feel as though I'm a better player/decision-maker than most other MTG players. Whereas I cannot use RNG to create a competitive edge for myself by forcing players to make as many decisions as possible, decisions I expect people to "get wrong" more than I will, I can grind out some % points that I would otherwise lose.
With respect to "once my discard engine is in place," you've probably already won at that point. That's how these decks work. People either kill you or they get reduced to a spot where they can no longer win and there's very little wiggle-room in between.
No one but you can have fun if you're playing a deck that wins on turn 2-3 and they're all playing decks that win on turns 10+. What you're doing is just so much better to the point where it trivializes their actions/decisions/cards. Nothing that they do actually matters; it's like watching one guy play Solitaire. Since Magic, like most games, is more about having a good time with your friends/other like-minded individuals it doesn't make sense to optimize these kinds of lists.
Yeah, mainly I just wanted to build this to wipe some smug smirks off a few faces ;). We also draw fun in a sadistic, masochistic, and intentionally petty way, but I suppose there isn't a point in hyper-optimization because I'm already making some more "real" decks--real in the sense that they fit more in line with the stuff they've got. I just wanted to make it infuriating as possible before putting it behind a "In Case of Shmucks, Break Glass" case. lol Also, discard was a gap in their current meta, as in not already someone else's "thing".
There's no way to say this without sounding conceited but it's the only answer that I can give. Given the choice of having everyone make decisions or everyone be subjected to RNG I'd always select the former because I feel as though I'm a better player/decision-maker than most other MTG players. Whereas I cannot use RNG to create a competitive edge for myself by forcing players to make as many decisions as possible, decisions I expect people to "get wrong" more than I will, I can grind out some % points that I would otherwise lose.
With respect to "once my discard engine is in place," you've probably already won at that point. That's how these decks work. People either kill you or they get reduced to a spot where they can no longer win and there's very little wiggle-room in between.
That doesn't really sound conceited to me. It's more like knowing your playgroup. For now, I'll stick with bottomless pit because I'm not as skilled a player as these guys, so I'd rather they be just as debilitated as me. There's also a small part of me that knows losing a random card will piss them off more than the ones they'd choose. PS - Started reading your other MP threads; that's some awesome work you did. Thanks!
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I've been doing chaos games with a group of friends (3 to 4 players) who have played since--geez, I don't even know, but I don't have a card collection that could hold a candle to theirs'. Usually I'll play with their FAT decks--over 100 cards in some of these crazy towers they like to screw around with. The usual meta breaks down like this: one dude runs with a green/blue Eldrazi deck. One plays Mono White with luminarch ascension and removal such as oblivion ring and journey to nowhere. The last guy--the one who paid for a few semesters of college with his magic tournament winnings--runs with either an artifact deck with all the good stuff or this evil stack of irritating mill cards.
Now I'm trying to build something that can contend in this no-banned-cards format. I decided to stick to 60 cards because a) I don't want to need to buy a million cards for one deck and b) I don't see the benefit in not getting to draw what you want--other than mill defense I guess?
Here's what I came up with:
22 Swamp
CREATURE HATE
2 Tainted Aether
2 Lethal Vapors
3 Innocent Blood
4 Barter in Blood
2 Doom Blade
1 Go for the Throat
3 Mindslicer
3 Syphon Mind
2 Words of Waste
2 Noxious Toad
1 Dark Deal
PAIN
2 Liliana's Caress
4 Wheel of Torture
1 Quest for the Nihil Stone
1 Painful Quandary
2 Elixir of Immortality
3 Geth's Grimoire
I haven't tested this out, but I already fear it has problems. Should I include direct answers for luminarch ascension ? Are there affordable cards that will protect my enchantments? Is my win condition reasonably achievable in a four/five player game?
Any help greatly appreciated!
Also, if you go that route and build your deck to completely remove your opponents' hands early in the game, you could use Noetic Scales to keep creatures at bay instead of devoting 14 slots to creature hate.
WUBG Atraxa Superfriends
WRBG Saskia's Angry
UBRG Yidris Valuetown
WUBR Breya "not just for infinite combos anymore" Etherium Shaper
mana]W[/mana]UR Narset the Nerfed
WBG Ghave counters madness
BRG Prossh, Token Master
UBG Tasigur Seedborn Control
WU Brago Bouncy Castle
WB Karlov Voltron
B Erebos/Drana MBC
R Feldon jank
I find Painful Quandary to be a nothing card. It's a great effect, but by the time it hits the game it's usually not all that effective.
HINT: CHeck out Prid3's guide in the MP-Black section for multiplayer discard.
Do these seem like good changes?
Alright, we need to have a bit of sit down my friend. Cards are banned and restricted for one of 3 reasons; they produce too much mana too quickly, they produce too much card advantage/selection for too little mana or they enable degenerate combo kills. Exceptions exist but by and large those are the most problematic cards in the game. Why am I pointing this out? Waste Not is a 2 mana spell that, on turn 2-3, draws 20 cards, produces 20 mana and combo kills the entire table. If you had to put it on a tier list it would be in some Omega level towering high above pathetic S class bombs such as Luminarch Ascension. I'm not exaggerating either; if anyone ever made a serious multiplayer banned/restricted list this would be one of the first cards on it.
You talk about order of operations, I ask "so what?" In multiplayer you get a free mulligan and going down to 6 is no big deal. 7-7-6 is 20 cards that you get to see for free and all you need is a single Waste Not to enable turn 2-3 wins. I say turn 2 because Gemstone Caverns is something that anyone can play in their decks and turn 1 Waste Not turn 2 Dark Deal is a game win. Black can also play Dark Ritual which makes sense when you deck has cards like Waste Not, Syphon Mind and Geth's Grimoire. 2-for-1ing yourself sucks in theory but in practice it's meaningless when your deck is filled with draw7s. Obviously cards like Chrome Mox and Lotus Petal also exist and, again, cards like Chrome Mox are fine when your gameplan involves drawing obscene amounts of cards. Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Consultation, Serum Powder, it's incredibly easy to enable turn 1-2 Waste Nots and unless it gets removed right then and there the game just ends.
So yeah, this is my way of saying "play 4 and thank me later."
With respect to the rest of the deck, I might recommend something close to:
20x Swamp
4x Gemstone Caverns
Spells (24)
3x Innocent Blood
4x Waste Not
4x Smallpox
4x Dark Deal
2x Words of Waste
3x Syphon Mind
2x Noetic Scales
2x Geth's Grimoire
A core close to this. You could always run Swamps over Gemstone Caverns but play them if you own them. Anyways, that leaves you 12 slots for fast mana, removal, discard, combo enablers, win conditions whatever you want.
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Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
My second comment is a bit more complicated and has more to do with the current table's meta. The dudes I play with have thrown together massive decks with the intention of playing long games--hence why I included two Elixir of Immortality. My fear is that by playing such an aggressive turn 2 win with little lategame potential is going to either aggravate them to the point where I won't be able to play this deck very often, or (far more likely) our groups' meta will change so that two turn win combos are the norm--which seems less fun. I didn't really realize that this was a constraint until I saw your badass decklist, which... presents me with an interesting problem I suppose.
Definitely buying 4 Gemstone Caverns, and I'll probably put 4 Waste Not/Dark Deal in my sideboard for when I just want to win--or if one of them decides to play with a faster deck--but for now let's say I want things to hit at least turn 5. One of the main reasons I was attracted to discard was the idea of a long, frustrating path to defeat for my friends. To revise my initial statement, I'm now looking for an annoying, draining path to victory. Say I want a Shrieking Affliction, Wheel of Torture, Quest for the Nihil Stone type of victory--a bleed em' dry build full of frustrating cards like Noetic Scales.
You had said that Shrieking Affliction was much better than other similar cards. Why do you feel this way? Any suggestions on how effectively lock my opponents at 0 cards while still retaining serious card advantage?
It's extremely useful when your deck wants to stick a key card early on. I highly recommend it.
The deck already has a whack of 4 drops that don't affect the board. At some point you need to play cards that actually "do something." You can tinker around with the numbers and run whatever you want, just make sure that your deck doesn't fall flat on its face because it's too slow out of the gates.
That card is incredibly overrated. The only reason to field it would be if you were worried about Waste Not decking yourself. Otherwise you're just paying 3 mana to gain 5 life and that's not remotely playable. The math behind "stacking your deck with good draws" is way worse than it seems. In non-Waste Not versions of the deck I would never field them.
The deck doesn't have to win on turn 2, it just can. I just wanted to highlight why the card is freaking broken and why you shouldn't care about drawing it at inopportune times. If you don't want to play for it for power-level reasons, that's fine, I just refuse to accept that it might not be powerful enough to make the cut. It's easily one of the most overpowered spells in the game in a multiplayer setting.
The main thing that your list is lacking is 4x Necrogen Mists to lock people at 0 cards. One-and-done discard is fine but it can only take you far, especially against draw spells.
4x Necrogen Mists and 1-2x Bottomless Pitt as needed to lock peole at 0 cards and Noetic Scales to thwart creature-based aggression. Otherwise you want plenty of discard-based removal such as Smallpox and things like Innocent Blood, Massacre, Barter in Blood, etc. to keep critter counts low.
The reason why Shreiking Affliction and Wheel of Torture are so much better than the alternatives is because they can be cast at any time. With Megrim effects you must draw and resolve them first, have them survive and force people with cards in hand to discard them. That is, a lot has to go right. With SA and WoT you can lock the board with removal, Necrogen Mists and Noetic Scales first and worry about winning later. Eventually you can stick an Affliction and drain people down but it's more of an after-thought than anything else. There's no pressure to stick your do-nothing win condition over jamming removal, draw spells, discard, etc. to advance your gameplan. You can cast them whenever it's convenient and they'll get the job done.
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Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
If you draw/play a lot of cards the repeatable shuffle effect is the reason for playing it.
The 5 live is just gravy.
My meta: 3 or 4 player free for all, anything goes but boring games or broken decks cause a vote to end that game.
Before anything else:
I think this depends on the meta of your table. I have no doubt that Elixir of Immortality will benefit me because...
a)One of our players usually runs mill.
b)I'll be discarding from my own hand after I incorporate Bottomless Pit or Necrogen Mists
c)Most of our games span FAR beyond the "normal" length of magic games, and their decks are built to be massive in size to withstand that. Mine is not. Elixir is a band-aid for this.
Yes, there are far better solutions to mill, but Elixir fits my needs for the time being. Perhaps later, I'll splash white for better burn/mill/creature protection via Ivory Mask Ghostly Prison Wrath of God Day of Judgment etc. but I'm not messing around with another color--for now.
Okay, now...
I'll likely go with Waste Not... We kind of play Magic to make each other suffer--to the point that I want to add a Winter Orb, and I'll get a good amount of satisfaction from blowing them up on turn 2-3. One problem is that I don't (yet) have any Gemstone Caverns. Does that make your planned combo less advantageous, or can I get away with 3 say...Dark Rituals? I own those right now. I'm going to put out an updated deck list very soon, but I have a few questions first.
How does everything fit?
With only 12 slots remaining in Prid3's initial suggestion, Where does that leave me with targeted removal, mass removal, creatures, constant discard and win conditions--other than the Waste Not combo? You've said that this deck doesn't need to win on turn 2, it just can. Is my only path to victory Waste Not? Do I lose the option to lock at 0 and bleed em' out?
How good is Mindslicer?
I like being able to drop him with Innocent Blood or any other creature destruction once I've got my pain set up, but does he bite me in the butt too hard? Is he too expensive for his effect?
Tainted Aether, Lethal Vapors or none of the above?
I love this type of strong control effect, but I have yet to test out it's effectiveness in multiplayer. My first thought is Lethal Vapors as people will be afraid to lose a turn in a multiplayer game, but, if they do skip, they'll avoid the turn-based damage brought by Wheel of Torture/Shrieking Affliction. Then I think of Tainted Aether combined with all those Smallpox. Are these cards overkill, considering I'm planning on including Noetic Scales?
A) Mill is a burn deck that needs to do 40 damage in order to win. Your deck can produce 100 power on turn 3. You do the math on who wins the race.
B) You're also drawing a ton of cards with WN, Geth's Grimoire and Syphon Mind.
C) I think you underestimate how big 60 card decks are. I've played some very long Limited games (Cube draft) with Mind's Eye in play and I've still never decked myself.
If you want to run them, that's fine, I can just guarantee that they're not nearly as good as you think. The only legitimate reason to play them (in my mind) is if you're worried about Waste Not decking you. Then I'd play 1-2.
The deck doesn't need Caverns in order to operate. It just means that you'll never go off on turn 2 and so you might have to play around Oblivion Ring. That is, you might want to wait until you can Dark Ritual a Waste Not and Dark Deal on the same turn before you "go for it." After all, if you just slam a turn 2 WN and it gets O-Ringed then you'll be real sad.
Nope, it's just a weaker alternative so it gets less emphasis. You can still play cards like Shrieking Affliction and Necrogen Mists, there's just no real reason to play copies of any win condition before maxing out on WN because it's many orders of magnitude more powerful than the alternatives. Still, you can always play 4x WN and 2-4x Shrieking Affliction if you want.
I have a love-hate relationship with Mindslicer. It was the first card that I ever bought as a 4-of and for the past 14 years I've been on-and-off playing him in my decks. On the one hand he's very good at beating opponents trying to do unfair things because losing your entire hand is game-losing for combo/control strategies. The problem is that he's bad against creature-based decks because if you fall behind on board then losing your own hand is a death sentence. You'll just get beaten down and killed. As such I can't provide you with a definitive answer because I don't have one. I really like the card against unfair, uninteractive strategies but if you're getting beaten down by creatures then he's garbage. It just depends on your meta and what people are playing.
They're more 4 mana cards that don't do anything. The problem with Black decks is that you have trillions of powerful 4 drops available to you but you can only afford to play so many and at some point you have to be able to interact with what other people are doing. If people just jam creatures on turns 2 and 3 and turn them sideways then you're just screwed if you try and curve Liliana's Caress into Dark Deal into Tainted Aether. Yeah, sure, you dealt damage and pissed everyone off but you still lose the game because you never affected the board. That's why Waste Not is so powerful. It's a win condition that provides you with a giant army of zombies to battle with in addition to being a broken combo enabler. You won't go turn 2 WN turn 3 Dark Deal every game but even a Smallpox or Pox follow-up will clear the board and provide some card advantage. This is also why I like Dark Ritual; sometimes you just Ritual out a Geth's Grimoire on turn 2 (you don't draw WN every game obviously) at which point all of your Smallpoxes and such are that much less scary. Everyone is going to be down a land and you'll be ahead on cards and sometimes you can just kill someone with a weak draw outright. Some people get stuck on lands and losing them to Smallpox and Pox can be devastating. It obviously hurts you too but you'll never miss a land drop and Waste Not usually provides a ton of mana itself so it's basically never a serious problem for you.
I want to stress how good Dark Ritual is by the way. If you want to run a whack of "do nothing" 4 drops then please cast them on turn 2 as opposed to turn 4. Tainted Aether is pretty bad if people already have a bunch of stuff in play but casting it on turn 1-2 (turn 1 requires Gemstone Caverns obviously) is pretty sweet. I know that losing a card sucks but remember that you play Waste Not, Geth's Grimoire, Syphon Mind, etc. for a reason and so don't worry about 2-for-1ing yourself early on. You'll more than make up for it once you get your draw engines online.
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Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
19 Swamp
3 Gemstone Caverns
HATE
4 Smallpox
3 Innocent Blood
2 Noetic Scales
1 Barter in Blood
1 Tainted Aether
1 Go For the Throat
3 Bottomless Pit
3 Syphon Mind
2 Mindslicer
2 Words of Waste
2 Dark Deal
WIN CONDITION
4 Waste Not
4 Shrieking Affliction
2 Dark Ritual
2 Geth's Grimoire
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Orb of Warding
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Winter Orb
I'M OVER BY 2 CARDS AND STILL NEED
2 Dark Deal
Another card I would have liked to include was Abyssal Gatekeeper, but there's just no room. Also, milling myself is a serious danger; with just one Waste Not I almost decked myself. I'm aware that I can forgo the draws provided by Geth's Grimoire, but it's hard to say no to EXACTLY what you need from your deck. Because I'll now be running with 4 Waste Not, I was considering removing Geth's Grimoire for two Witchbane Orbs, forgetting about Orb of Warding and leaving myself at 2 Dark Deal--at least for when I'm up against mill/burn. For whatever reason, this crew uses "Target Player" effects, so Witchbane Orb will probably get me pretty far...
Another option you could consider testing if you want to protect yourself against more than just mill, and this assumes you have some decent lands to support it, would be to run white. Leyline of Sanctity has come down a lot in price and should remain a tournament staple for some time, so now could be a decent time to pick them up if they might also serve you in another deck/game setting at some point down the road. Starting with this in play for free some % of the time is better than having to get to 4 mana and spend it on an orb. But it does still feel like a "sideboard" card to me, unless your meta is really that chock full of player-targeting spells. Playing white does also mean you have access to the best targeted removal in the game in Swords to Plowshares, if that's any good in your meta. The upsides over Go For the Throat is that it can of course hit stuff like Wurmcoil Engine and Blightsteel Colossus all day. You could maybe even run a few Flagstones of Trokair to sac to your Smallpoxes, etc. Anyway, not sure it's worth going into another colour, but I'm just throwing out ideas.
How does the curve feel to you with your 22 lands (+2 rits)? I would think that there will be games where you'll have an early Smallpox or two to cast, and then proceed to draw into your 4/5 drops... I mean, if you have Waste Not in play, you're probably doing fine for mana but then again if you have Waste Not in play, you're probably winning so the point is kinda moot. It's when someone blows it up or you don't see one early enough in the game that might cause a bit of awkwardness, I think. Personally, I prefer to keep the curve as low as possible in these types of decks because I think speed kills, given how large a target you paint on your head when people see what you're playing. You could replace the Geth's Grimoire with Dream Salvage for example. It favours more of a "burst-y" approach than the grimoire, but I think that's where this deck really starts to shine anyway. I personally run 12 discard-3 spells in my list (Delirium Skeins and Burning Inquiry in addition to DD) and I think they are quite a bit more effective with a Waste Not in play than the one-shot Bottomless Pit type cards. That said, maybe that's going too far in a different direction for you or you're trying to make use of cards you already own. And if so, I totally respect that, I'm just speaking from my experiences with my own WN deck.
The 1-of Winter Orb seems a bit random to me. No tutors to find it, and to me, that's the type of card you want to consistently play earlier in the game, in a deck that's built to make it less symmetrical (like an Elf deck that runs mana dorks, Gaea's Cradles, and 3-4 Orbs or whatever). Again, sure it's good with Waste Not and a constant discard effect to generate mana for you, but there are a lot of options that are really good with WN. If you're opponents don't have any cards in hand, and their creatures they draw and play immediately just get sacced or bounced before they can attack, what's it saving you from? Nasty top-decked spells? If those are more common in your meta and you're finding that the drawback isn't hard for you to work around, maybe it's worth increasing the number? Winter Orb is an incredibly powerful card, that's for certain.
Lastly, I'm not sure I'm a huge fan of the Mindslicers... how are they working for you? I would think you'd ideally want to play one when you have the ability to follow it up with an Innocent Blood or Smallpox. The longer you have to leave it in play to wait for the timing to be right for you, the longer your opponents have to plan for it or draw into a Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile and just deal with it once and for all. It's not like you can respond and kill it at instant speed with a sac effect (outside of GftT). I would run Delirium Skeins or even Ill-Gotten Gains over the slicers, personally.
Anyway, long post is long. Hope that gives you some ideas! Glad to hear that the deck is working well enough for you so far, but now that the cat's out of the bag, you can expect that your opponents will make things harder for you in subsequent games with the deck
WUBG Atraxa Superfriends
WRBG Saskia's Angry
UBRG Yidris Valuetown
WUBR Breya "not just for infinite combos anymore" Etherium Shaper
mana]W[/mana]UR Narset the Nerfed
WBG Ghave counters madness
BRG Prossh, Token Master
UBG Tasigur Seedborn Control
WU Brago Bouncy Castle
WB Karlov Voltron
B Erebos/Drana MBC
R Feldon jank
It's also worth noting that Emrakul is just strictly better than all the alternatives because casting him off of WN mana is trivial and giving your 2/2 zombie army "Haste" is massive. The best versions of this deck would always run 1 anyways. Still, pricetag...
It makes it so that after you combo off with WN people can't untap and Wrath... or even cast spells for that matter. That's definitely powerful.
Mindslicer is very good against combo decks like burn and mill that don't rely on creatures in order to win. Pitching your hand is trivial in a deck with WN/Geth's Grimoire/Syphon Mind but a mill/burn deck losing its hand is GG. So far he hasn't alluded to his meta being especially creature-heavy which makes these types of threats absolutely stellar. As long as you're not massively behind on board when he dies then a Mindslicer + Necrogen Mists "lock" is extremely difficult for combo/control decks to beat.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
And they're all good ideas! My favorite suggestion is Flagstones of Trokair, and I'm wondering if there's a black equivalent. Why not white you ask? It's not that I'm not interested--in an earlier post I mused about the possibilities of white--but it's more of a budget thing for now; undoubtedly Leyline of Sanctity rocks Witchbane Orbs world, but not enough to justify the $$ presently, you know? Esp when I can fish out whatever the heck I want from my deck; when I drop a Dark Deal I'm pulling 20 cards easily, so it's not really an issue.
In terms of Winter Orb, in part, it's just to be "that guy" to get a rise out of my friends, but it's also what Prid3 said, locking down the game when I've got the upper hand. Say I've got my discard and draw engines going. I don't really need lands to win. With Bottomless Pit/Necrogen Mists and WN/SA, I get stuff and they get the shaft. I'd like to play with more, but a) WHERE DOES IT FIT? b) they're around 5 bucks a pop nowadays, so I'd like to find a place for them before purchasing, and things are tight as is.
One thing though, everyone keeps on talking about all the mana this combo will generate, but, honestly, I have not gotten it--even when I get DD off by turn 3. I'm usually facing 3 opponents, so does that change things? Has anyone actually played this combo before because I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong. I'll usually catch a stray mana from one unlucky sucker, but that's it. This is why I sprang for a few Gemstone Caverns.
You also asked how Mindslicer is doing. I'd have to say pretty great. 5 mana gets rid of everyone's hand and everyone sacrifices a creature with Innocent Blood, and the trick is that I ALWAYS have what I need because I'm drawing, like... 20 or more cards off of spells plus the consistent discard. Because of this, Elixir of Immortality really has to stay.
Delirium Skeins may actually take the place of a few Syphon Minds, as my draw engine is already pretty stupid, and I have to play something to win eventually, right?
All that said, I'm still at a loss for making it all fit. I'll get there eventually though...
I mean I don't see how you're drawing 20+ cards off of Waste Not but are only managing to generate a couple of stray mana. Decks are like 40% lands (24/60) which would represent 8/20 cards which would mean that your 20 card WN combos should generate an average of 16 mana. Really though, all you need is to generate 4 and from there you should be able to chain into another Dark Deal/Delirium Skeins/Pox/Smallpox/Ill-Gotten Gains to keep the combo going. That's a mere quarter of the average. I'm not saying that you're lying or anything but from a purely mathematical perspective it doesn't make much sense for you to be drawing 20+ cards without generating a great deal of mana in the process.
You're probably thinking bout this deck all wrong. Trying to optimize it is kind of pointless. Investing real money into it is equally pointless. This is the best thing that you can possibly be doing by a large margin. It makes most Vintage decks look tame by comparison. Budget versions of the deck win on turn 3 and optimized lists seal the deal on 2 virtually every time. Those are not real numbers; that's just moronic. This cannot become the "norm" because there's no way for anyone at your table to compete with it. Even if they team up on you it won't matter. They'll have to build very bad hate decks just to survive and that won't be fun for anyone.
Rather, I think that you should think of Waste Not as a fun "every now and then" deck and not one that you whip out each and every time that you play. It's too much better than anything else that you could doing on a similar budget. Consistently winning the game on turn 3 with a $40.00 deck just isn't remotely acceptable.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
On the mana production:
On paper, it doesn't look to me like your deck is really setup to consistently generate insane amounts of mana in bursts like some other WN lists. Rather, I see that you would have some occasional spikes of mana production, but you've passed up on some burst potential with some of your card choices and so you see more occasions where you "generate 2 mana on player B's turn", then "generate 2 more mana on player C's turn", that type of thing. Maybe I'm completely out to lunch (I have not played the deck), but I guess I just don't really see a high degree of "chainability" in the deck. And that's fine... It could be a slower, more grindy deck (and probably way more frustrating for your opponents to play against too :)), but maybe that's a factor in your observation regarding mana production.
For what it's worth, in my experience (playing against 3 other people 90% of the time), I've been able to draw and play basically my entire deck fairly consistently on turn 3 in most of my games. BUT, I've gone all-in on the WN plan, choosing to field a critical mass of discard-3 spells, fast mana, tutors and free mulligan-producers to maximize my odds of getting the WN into play and then chaining those discard-3 spells into one another. I also run red in my list because Burning Inquiry is too good to pass up, IMO. I've found that the fact that it draws people cards when their hands are empty is incredibly relevant in this "chaining" process. Anyway, I'll post the list in case it gives you an idea or two, or if you decide to give it a goldfish on Cockatrice for funsies.
4x Burning Inquiry
4x Dark Deal
4x Delirium Skeins
1x Demonic Tutor
2x Exsanguinate
3x Gamble
4x Simian Spirit Guide
Land (22)
1x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Dragonskull Summit
2x Mountain
4x Sulfurous Springs
7x Swamp
4x Dark Ritual
1x Demonic Consultation
3x Dream Salvage
1x Vampiric Tutor
Enchantment (4)
4x Waste Not
Artifact (4)
4x Serum Powder
WUBG Atraxa Superfriends
WRBG Saskia's Angry
UBRG Yidris Valuetown
WUBR Breya "not just for infinite combos anymore" Etherium Shaper
mana]W[/mana]UR Narset the Nerfed
WBG Ghave counters madness
BRG Prossh, Token Master
UBG Tasigur Seedborn Control
WU Brago Bouncy Castle
WB Karlov Voltron
B Erebos/Drana MBC
R Feldon jank
In terms of the rest of what you said, yeah I agree. I just wanted something pretty solid as my first creation--something I can differ to when things get STOOPID at the table, but I'm working on other deck ideas now. Really want to thank you for the input! This thread probably coming to a close soon, but I just wanted to ask one last thing about Bottomless Pit vs Necrogen Mists. What makes Mists so much better in your mind? I understand that I'm playing a control build, and I need the right cards, but once my discard engine is in place and I have a ton of ways to draw, what's the harm in making them lose a random card instead of one they choose? Isn't it more likely that they'll try to hold onto the answer for the situation they're in? Once I play WN + a constant discard effect, I'm going to be up by two cards at least, so I feel like I'll be alright with taking the random hit, whereas they're in a jam, so they won't. What am I overlooking?
@Cloudkick3r, I completely get where you're coming from in terms of the ambiguity of "budget", and I may at some point splurge for those cards, so your post was pretty helpful. Also, that deck list is beastly! I respect your love affair with Burning Inquiry--it's a zombie/mana/draw generator for just R. Do you usually win with Exsanguinate or your hoards of undead?
No one but you can have fun if you're playing a deck that wins on turn 2-3 and they're all playing decks that win on turns 10+. What you're doing is just so much better to the point where it trivializes their actions/decisions/cards. Nothing that they do actually matters; it's like watching one guy play Solitaire. Since Magic, like most games, is more about having a good time with your friends/other like-minded individuals it doesn't make sense to optimize these kinds of lists.
There's no way to say this without sounding conceited but it's the only answer that I can give. Given the choice of having everyone make decisions or everyone be subjected to RNG I'd always select the former because I feel as though I'm a better player/decision-maker than most other MTG players. Whereas I cannot use RNG to create a competitive edge for myself by forcing players to make as many decisions as possible, decisions I expect people to "get wrong" more than I will, I can grind out some % points that I would otherwise lose.
With respect to "once my discard engine is in place," you've probably already won at that point. That's how these decks work. People either kill you or they get reduced to a spot where they can no longer win and there's very little wiggle-room in between.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
That doesn't really sound conceited to me. It's more like knowing your playgroup. For now, I'll stick with bottomless pit because I'm not as skilled a player as these guys, so I'd rather they be just as debilitated as me. There's also a small part of me that knows losing a random card will piss them off more than the ones they'd choose. PS - Started reading your other MP threads; that's some awesome work you did. Thanks!