I always play Dictate of Heliod in token decks and I always play 4x Intangible Virtue. The difference between +1/+1 and +2/+2 is massive in my experience (I've always struggled to close games out with ~2/2s) and once you have a board of 4/4 vigilant beaters the game is usually over.
I don't like playing marginal 2-for-1s such as Sign in Blood. Either play a real draw spell or play more token producers.
Orrery, Return to the Ranks, Persecution, at least 1 Ajani and some of the "lifegain" 2 drops should all be removed in my mind. There's no reason why you shouldn't have the full 4 Lingerings, the full 4 Virtues and more actual token producers. Battle Screech, for example, is a good man at 4. I usually run 4 myself. Turn 2 Virtue, turn 3 Souls, turn 4 Screen and turn 5 Dictate of Heliod is my "nut curve" of sorts so anything that I can do to make it more consistent is good in my books.
I currently don't have Dictate of Heliod, so in it's place I'm running 2x Spear of Heliod and Cathar's Crusade. Cathar's is a do-nothing enchantment, but I feel like it has some blow-out potential, so I'll see how it runs. The 5 mana cost sucks, as by then I should already have amassed quite the token army.
I like the lifegain guys (at least the Suture Priest) because it keeps me in the game longer, and can start chipping away at life totals before I start swinging.
I upped the Lingerings and Screeches to 4 each, since that makes sense.
Arenas, Syphon Mind or more token producers. I find that the best token decks churn out millions of ~4/4 vigilant fliers which is why I don't like like seeing all of the random crap in the deck. If you just played 4 Virtues, 4 Dictates (or some other big pump spell) and then every Lingering Souls, Spectral Procession, Battle Screech, Triplicate Spirits, etc. I think that you'd have more success with the deck. Like I don't understand what role Suture Priest serves. Keeps you in the game longer? People can attack into 4/4s and/or 6/6s on turn 3? Any pump spell on turn 2 (Honor of the Pure, Virtue, anything) into 2 multi-creature spells on turns 3-4 is pretty hard to swing at. From there you just drop another big pump spell of sorts, and proceed to slam "army in a can" spells until you win or lose. It just seems like you're playing a lot of marginal cards that don't really add anything to your best overall strategy.
Oh, do you actually like Bitterblossom in MP? I find the card to be unplayable personally.
Blood artist is one of my all time favorite cards but I can tell you right now that with no other real synergy with the deck other than making creatures he does not belong. Now if you throw in cartel aristocrat that is a different story. Also you have to play 4 intangible virtue and 4 lingering souls in this deck or you are crazy. I would recommend the 4 virtues and some honor of the pures together and remove some of the less synergistic stuff like orrery sign in blood and return to the ranks. Also your only actual "kill spell" is an exile effect which is just another lack of synergy with blood artist.
Blood artist is one of my all time favorite cards but I can tell you right now that with no other real synergy with the deck other than making creatures he does not belong. Also your only actual "kill spell" is an exile effect which is just another lack of synergy with blood artist.
I don't agree. BA is a good answer to mass removal which is basically the only real threat to decks such as these. Wraths are usually very good but if you Wrath a 10+ creature board with a BA out you can basically just kill a Control player outright. Even if he/she doesn't immediately die they're still probably too low to even truly recover. The only downside to the card is that it dies to spot removal and that's a very real strike against it. You can't "soak" spot removal in a token deck because none of your other other creatures are worth removing 1-by-1. I would HAPPILY let someone Terror one of my 1/1 fliers from Lingering Souls after all. What I'm trying to say is that I hate decks that are completely immune to spot removal save for 1 juicy target because, well, that juicy target will just bite the dust (virtually) every time as a result.
Obviously you can drop the Marsh Flats if the price scares you. Same goes for Phyrexian Arena replacing Dark Confidant. I'm not a fan of paying that much for a card, which is why I don't play modern or legacy. I understand I could play modern for what I've paid for standard over the years, but I always get new cards and it's always evolving into something different. Good luck!
Yeah I forgot this was multiplayer..Been playing too much modern lately (where I REALLY want blood artist to work) so Artist isn't terrible but like you said, it is probably going to be the number 1 target for removal on the table and unless you have dark confidant or something you have no other creatures to eat that removal. artist is not really a turn 2 play so running some stuff like champion of the parish and cartel aristocrat is a pretty good way to draw removal before a blood artist. xathrid necromancer slots right in and of course there is always spots for lingering souls.
Of course this is a completely different deck, but one that I have found blood artist to be pretty good in.
Obviously you can drop the Marsh Flats if the price scares you. Same goes for Phyrexian Arena replacing Dark Confidant. I'm not a fan of paying that much for a card, which is why I don't play modern or legacy. I understand I could play modern for what I've paid for standard over the years, but I always get new cards and it's always evolving into something different. Good luck!
I have no clue why you would put painlands in this deck. I would much rather play guild gates in a big multiplayer FFA format. Consider it a turn 1 play.
I suppose Pack Rat is meta-dependant, but MAN can that card be bad in a meta that has a decent amount of removal.
Looking at all the cards that you list in this deck that cost you life, I don't see how you ever win. This looks more like a duel deck, tbh. You can't hurt yourself that badly when you have ZERO lifegain, and you have several other players breathing down your neck. Why wouldn't you run Syphon Mind??
I suppose Pack Rat is meta-dependant, but MAN can that card be bad in a meta that has a decent amount of removal.
Serious question, has anyone EVER Pack Rat'd a table out? The only time the card has done anything for me was a completely win-more scenario involving Marrow-Gnawer and Eldrazi Monument,
The card is virtually unplayable in 3 player FFAs + 2HG and it's reasonable to exclude them from 4 player FFAs. I don't like to blindly assume that it's always correct to play 4 copies because it legitimately isn't in a reasonable % of metas.
[quote from="iemsparticus »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/casual-related-formats/multiplayer/567616-b-w-tokens?comment=11"]Why wouldn't you run Syphon Mind??
The card is virtually unplayable in 3 player FFAs + 2HG and it's reasonable to exclude them from 4 player FFAs. I don't like to blindly assume that it's always correct to play 4 copies because it legitimately isn't in a reasonable % of metas.
That's a solid point. Sometimes I get in the rut of assuming everyone plays in big 5+ FFAs like me. My main point, however, was that there was way too much self inflicted life loss to win without any life gain.
[quote from="iemsparticus »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/casual-related-formats/multiplayer/567616-b-w-tokens?comment=11"]Why wouldn't you run Syphon Mind??
The card is virtually unplayable in 3 player FFAs + 2HG and it's reasonable to exclude them from 4 player FFAs. I don't like to blindly assume that it's always correct to play 4 copies because it legitimately isn't in a reasonable % of metas.
That's a solid point. Sometimes I get in the rut of assuming everyone plays in big 5+ FFAs like me. My main point, however, was that there was way too much self inflicted life loss to win without any life gain.
Oh I don't disagree at all. I think that Painlands, Bob and Bitterblossom are all virtually unplayable in casual multiplayer. I own 4 Bobs and I have owned them ever since Ravnica. I don't exclude them for every decklist that I've ever posted because I'm cheap. I don't play the card because I think that it's garbage compared to the alternatives.
Bob is generally bad in MP environments due to the fact that you probably want to play some bombs and games don't usually end early. Phyrexian arena is too slow for Legacy, but is the BOB of MP. Such a good card and the CA provided if not removed by your opponents will just win you games. The loss of life is nothing to worry about if you build your decks with a lifegain component
Bob is generally bad in MP environments due to the fact that you probably want to play some bombs and games don't usually end early. Phyrexian arena is too slow for Legacy, but is the BOB of MP. Such a good card and the CA provided if not removed by your opponents will just win you games. The loss of life is nothing to worry about if you build your decks with a lifegain component
Bob is generally bad in MP environments due to the fact that you probably want to play some bombs and games don't usually end early. Phyrexian arena is too slow for Legacy, but is the BOB of MP. Such a good card and the CA provided if not removed by your opponents will just win you games. The loss of life is nothing to worry about if you build your decks with a lifegain component
Just to be clear: I love Phyrexian Arena for multiplayer and couldn't agree with you more. My concern with the deck list was that, not only was there zero lifegain, but it also includes painlands, Thoughtseize, and Bitterblossom... WAY too much self inflicted lifeloss.
1x Bitterblossom
3x Intangible Virtue
1x Phyrexian Arena
Creatures: 11
4x Suture Priest
3x Blood Artist
3x Geist-Honored Monk
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Sorceries: 10
3x Lingering Souls
3x Sign in Blood
2x Battle Screech
1x Entreat the Angels
1x Return to the Ranks
2x Devouring Light
2x Zealous Persecution
Planeswalkers: 4
3x Ajani Goldmane
1x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Artifacts: 3
2x Vedalken Orrery
1x Skullclamp
Lands: 23
4x Caves of Koilos
3x Orzhov Basilica
2x Fetid Heath
2x Vault of the Archangel
2x Windbrisk Heights
6x Plains
4x Swamp
Open to any and all suggestions.
Multiplayer:
MonoBlack
Mono-Red
Cycling
Crush of Wurms
Zoo
Immortal Coil
Control
Reanimator
Mono-G
Cruel Ascension
Landfall
Esper Spirits/Tokens
Phantom Vigor
Not Explicitly Multiplayer:
Allies
Bant
Artifacts
I don't like playing marginal 2-for-1s such as Sign in Blood. Either play a real draw spell or play more token producers.
Orrery, Return to the Ranks, Persecution, at least 1 Ajani and some of the "lifegain" 2 drops should all be removed in my mind. There's no reason why you shouldn't have the full 4 Lingerings, the full 4 Virtues and more actual token producers. Battle Screech, for example, is a good man at 4. I usually run 4 myself. Turn 2 Virtue, turn 3 Souls, turn 4 Screen and turn 5 Dictate of Heliod is my "nut curve" of sorts so anything that I can do to make it more consistent is good in my books.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
What would you suggest in place of Sign in Blood? More Phyrexian Arena style effects?
I like the lifegain guys (at least the Suture Priest) because it keeps me in the game longer, and can start chipping away at life totals before I start swinging.
I upped the Lingerings and Screeches to 4 each, since that makes sense.
Multiplayer:
MonoBlack
Mono-Red
Cycling
Crush of Wurms
Zoo
Immortal Coil
Control
Reanimator
Mono-G
Cruel Ascension
Landfall
Esper Spirits/Tokens
Phantom Vigor
Not Explicitly Multiplayer:
Allies
Bant
Artifacts
Arenas, Syphon Mind or more token producers. I find that the best token decks churn out millions of ~4/4 vigilant fliers which is why I don't like like seeing all of the random crap in the deck. If you just played 4 Virtues, 4 Dictates (or some other big pump spell) and then every Lingering Souls, Spectral Procession, Battle Screech, Triplicate Spirits, etc. I think that you'd have more success with the deck. Like I don't understand what role Suture Priest serves. Keeps you in the game longer? People can attack into 4/4s and/or 6/6s on turn 3? Any pump spell on turn 2 (Honor of the Pure, Virtue, anything) into 2 multi-creature spells on turns 3-4 is pretty hard to swing at. From there you just drop another big pump spell of sorts, and proceed to slam "army in a can" spells until you win or lose. It just seems like you're playing a lot of marginal cards that don't really add anything to your best overall strategy.
Oh, do you actually like Bitterblossom in MP? I find the card to be unplayable personally.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Syphon Mind, Phyrexian Arena, and Lingering Souls. That's as good a reason as any in my mind.
My Powered 630 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
I don't agree. BA is a good answer to mass removal which is basically the only real threat to decks such as these. Wraths are usually very good but if you Wrath a 10+ creature board with a BA out you can basically just kill a Control player outright. Even if he/she doesn't immediately die they're still probably too low to even truly recover. The only downside to the card is that it dies to spot removal and that's a very real strike against it. You can't "soak" spot removal in a token deck because none of your other other creatures are worth removing 1-by-1. I would HAPPILY let someone Terror one of my 1/1 fliers from Lingering Souls after all. What I'm trying to say is that I hate decks that are completely immune to spot removal save for 1 juicy target because, well, that juicy target will just bite the dust (virtually) every time as a result.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
4 Lingering Souls
4 Blade Splicer
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Victim of Night
4 Path to exile
4 Pack Rat
2 Hero of Bladehold
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Phyrexian Arena
2 Spectral Procession
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Godless Shrine
3 Mutavault
4 Marsh Flats
3 Plains
5 Swamp
Obviously you can drop the Marsh Flats if the price scares you. Same goes for Phyrexian Arena replacing Dark Confidant. I'm not a fan of paying that much for a card, which is why I don't play modern or legacy. I understand I could play modern for what I've paid for standard over the years, but I always get new cards and it's always evolving into something different. Good luck!
Of course this is a completely different deck, but one that I have found blood artist to be pretty good in.
I have no clue why you would put painlands in this deck. I would much rather play guild gates in a big multiplayer FFA format. Consider it a turn 1 play.
Thoughtseize, Victim of Night, Path to Exile, and Inquisition of Kozilek all seem pretty terrible in a multiplayer setting as well.
I suppose Pack Rat is meta-dependant, but MAN can that card be bad in a meta that has a decent amount of removal.
Looking at all the cards that you list in this deck that cost you life, I don't see how you ever win. This looks more like a duel deck, tbh. You can't hurt yourself that badly when you have ZERO lifegain, and you have several other players breathing down your neck. Why wouldn't you run Syphon Mind??
My Powered 630 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
Serious question, has anyone EVER Pack Rat'd a table out? The only time the card has done anything for me was a completely win-more scenario involving Marrow-Gnawer and Eldrazi Monument,
The card is virtually unplayable in 3 player FFAs + 2HG and it's reasonable to exclude them from 4 player FFAs. I don't like to blindly assume that it's always correct to play 4 copies because it legitimately isn't in a reasonable % of metas.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
That's a solid point. Sometimes I get in the rut of assuming everyone plays in big 5+ FFAs like me. My main point, however, was that there was way too much self inflicted life loss to win without any life gain.
My Powered 630 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
Oh I don't disagree at all. I think that Painlands, Bob and Bitterblossom are all virtually unplayable in casual multiplayer. I own 4 Bobs and I have owned them ever since Ravnica. I don't exclude them for every decklist that I've ever posted because I'm cheap. I don't play the card because I think that it's garbage compared to the alternatives.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Gray Merchant of Asphodel is not a fair card.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Just to be clear: I love Phyrexian Arena for multiplayer and couldn't agree with you more. My concern with the deck list was that, not only was there zero lifegain, but it also includes painlands, Thoughtseize, and Bitterblossom... WAY too much self inflicted lifeloss.
In my book, Thoughtseize is unplayable in MP.
My Powered 630 card Vintage Multiplayer Cube
cEDH: WUBR Blue Farm WUBR, UG Kinnan Flips UG, U Urza Scepter U
iemsparticus I agree. too much life loss without a way to 1) win fast enough, 2) recover some of that life loss.
I agree, TS is basically unplayable in MP