Been playing with this deck for over 3 yrs. It has went thru alot of changes over them yrs. I had alot of good advice from Prid3 to help me get this deck to where it is at now. I feel it's time to shake it up alittle. I have a budget of $20 to make changes. A couple of changes i'm thinking about are adding Abyssal Gatekeeper and Quest for the Nihil Stone. Gatekeeper would be nice for some early defense and plus it acts like a removal spell. Lets see what we can come up with.
The only thing that I do differently is that I typically run some number of Noetic Scales over Bottled Cloister and I always run at least some form of mass discard such as Pox. I find that Mists on 3 is just far too slow otherwise. I also always run 4x Smallpox and couldn't really imagine playing the deck without them. I'm also coming around on Dark Ritual a lot in this particular archetype. The card sucks in a lot of ways but I mean it speeds the deck up by a turn or so and when the alternative is to die miserably it's a pretty decent option.
I find that having 7 redundant copies of a card is good enough. 7 win conditions, 7 constant discard engines, 6-7 early mass removal spells, etc. The full 8 often feels too clunky since you get too many draws where you rip the wrong half of your deck. That's why I cut a Wheel, cut a Pit, etc. in my lists. I want 1 and I want to see 1 every game but God knows what happens when you draw 3 or 4.
Ooh, I like that Bottled Cloister action there. Cute interaction with the discard enchantments (in addition to Ye Olde Ensnaring Bridge).
I should have probably explained that Cloister vs Noetic Scales is a contextual decision. It really depends on how fast + aggressive your meta is. Cloister is amazing vs control, ramp, some midrange, combo, etc. but is just another slow do-nothing against aggro. It's also vulnerable to removal and I mean you'll lose ~3 cards to it a non-trivial % of the time as a result. The deck is insanely risky already, I'm not arguing otherwise, but Cloister is still a far-cry from an Arena. Something that will happen to you eventually is that you'll cast one and someone will Nature's Claim it immediately. Not fun. I've had mixed success with the card but the same can be said about the archetype in general so that doesn't really mean much. I kind of like the "**** creatures" variation because Magic emphasizes creatures so much now that I find that most decks are creature decks. That's why I can't not have 4x Smallpox in my decks and why I really like the Innocent Blood/Abyssal Gatekeeper support squad.
This is definitely one of my favorite types of decks; Dark Ritual is usually invaluable because landing that turn one Necrogen Mists/Bottomless Pit/Ensnaring Bridge/ is quite desirable. I always run four Smallpox as well and a few copies of Pox. I'm a huge fan of Noetic Scales and usually run at least two but the card can be somewhat problematic getting to four mana can be difficult at times.
The fan created Waste Not is going to be an extremely interesting addition to the archetype, this card is going to come in the 2015 core set and I can't wait.
Thank You for all the replies. The changes everyone is talking about i own most of the cards. I'm going to stick with the bottled Cloister though. I understand the risk of potentially losing my hand. What i like about the card is the fact it will give me extra draw. Would really like to get Dark Ritual in but that would require getting rid of my tutors. Here are the changes i made and an updated deck list.
Took Out
-4 Sign in Blood
-2 Syphon Mind
-2 Mutilate
-3 Bottled Cloister
-1 Bottomless Pit
-1 Wheel of Torture
Cloister is amazing vs control, ramp, some midrange, combo, etc. but is just another slow do-nothing against aggro. It's also vulnerable to removal and I mean you'll lose ~3 cards to it a non-trivial % of the time as a result. The deck is insanely risky already, I'm not arguing otherwise, but Cloister is still a far-cry from an Arena. Something that will happen to you eventually is that you'll cast one and someone will Nature's Claim it immediately. Not fun.
Normally I'd agree, but Bottled Cloister is a 4-drop and this deck has 11 3-drops that I think anyone would Nature's Claim in a heartbeat. And if they kill your 3-drop and your 4-drop... well, most decks don't stand up to that kind of hate.
It depends. The problem with cards like Necrogen Mists is that when you're casting those when other people are casting creatures you make yourself a target and you can't really defend yourself. This is especially true if your 4 drop is just another do-nothing. What ends up happening is that your deck becomes almost 100% reliant on drawing an early Bridge. I play in huge 8 player games so my perception is probably skewed but I mean I've tried casting Cloister before and people would often kill that to nuke my hand and hinder my ability to draw removal and then just kill me. Necrogen Mists is annoying but it doesn't stop topdecks/cards in play so taking out the discard player while ignoring his discard spells is often the best way to go. That's why I prefer to run Noetic Scales in general. Cloister only seems to win me games in which I was already going to seize victory.
I tried running Bottled Cloister for a while.
When it works, it's great, but I should mention the main reason I ran it was because of Gibbering Descent.
A sweeper (with Cloister in play) nukes not just your entire engine, but also your hand. Worth thinking about. I don't play them anymore myself.
I found Bridge was very much a needed card, I'd up to 4.
With 4 Smallpox, 2 POX (good inclusions), 4 mana is usually quite difficult to achieve, even with a high number of lands.
I run 26 lands in my discard deck (which is similar to this), to make sure I can pox whenever I need to, and seldom suffer mana-screw.
Okay i get it. While the bottled Cloister is a good card, the risk is too high in this type of deck. I will make the switch to Noetic Scales. Check Post 7 for updated list.
The bridge is out of my price range. A year ago they were under $10. Now they are $20.
Holy *****! Mtg USED to be an expensive game, but the last year has seen prices go stupid. I have to wonder how much of this is big stores manipulating prices like the sharemarket, or whether the fact Mtg is increasing in popularity exponentially might be more to do with it. Maybe both?!
I've had only 3 Stoneforge Mystic for ages. When I bought a set way back in Worldwake, they were $8 > Somehow one went missing one night. Now the price is up at $30+, and it's only gonna keep going up. So yeah, I feel your pain greenie.
Anyway, sorry to derail.
The bridge is out of my price range. A year ago they were under $10. Now they are $20.
Holy *****! Mtg USED to be an expensive game, but the last year has seen prices go stupid.
I talked to a few people and they said alot the cards that are going up are do to the modern format. You have newer players buying older cards so the demand is higher so the price go's up.
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Yeah, there's a mono-black discard deck that's actually viable right now that runs a full playset of ensnaring bridges right now. That would account for the price jump.
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True dat > I should really get the Thragtusks now shouldn't I?
I remember when Bridge from Below was a $20 card, now it's like $5. This is the kinda action I wanna see, expensive cards that people want to buy coming down in price due to reprints. Reprinting staples should be a priority for WoTC, and it's what the core set and commander has the ability *duty* to do for us every year.
I'd simply like deck staples to be within reach, and the number of unobtainable cards (that aren't on the reserved list) to be smaller, rather than freakin huge. I have a feeling I might be asking for too much....
Arjan van Leeuwen's mono-Black discard deck drove up the price of Ensnaring Bridge. Shouldn't come as a surprise; it's a strong card, actually does stuff, for only 3 mana. Modern is a fairly open format. Stuff is bound to see play eventually. And meanwhile you can buy Scourge of Valkas, Huntmaster of the Fells and Thragtusk for peanuts. Anyone remember how expensive those used to be?
Although to be fair Scourge of Valkas is a horrendous card and you can only chock it's price up to human stupidity. The card was always going to be stone-unplayable in Constructed and it was never going to be a chase casual mythic either. I have absolutely no idea what anyone saw in it. Huntmaster, Tusk, they deserved their price given that they were Standard staples. Scourge... geez...
22 Swamp
Spells
4 Innocent Blood
4 Mutilate
4 Sign in Blood
2 Syphon Mind
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
4 Necrogen Mists
4 Bottomless Pit
4 Shrieking Affliction
Artifacts
4 Wheel of Torture
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Bottled Cloister
I find that having 7 redundant copies of a card is good enough. 7 win conditions, 7 constant discard engines, 6-7 early mass removal spells, etc. The full 8 often feels too clunky since you get too many draws where you rip the wrong half of your deck. That's why I cut a Wheel, cut a Pit, etc. in my lists. I want 1 and I want to see 1 every game but God knows what happens when you draw 3 or 4.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I should have probably explained that Cloister vs Noetic Scales is a contextual decision. It really depends on how fast + aggressive your meta is. Cloister is amazing vs control, ramp, some midrange, combo, etc. but is just another slow do-nothing against aggro. It's also vulnerable to removal and I mean you'll lose ~3 cards to it a non-trivial % of the time as a result. The deck is insanely risky already, I'm not arguing otherwise, but Cloister is still a far-cry from an Arena. Something that will happen to you eventually is that you'll cast one and someone will Nature's Claim it immediately. Not fun. I've had mixed success with the card but the same can be said about the archetype in general so that doesn't really mean much. I kind of like the "**** creatures" variation because Magic emphasizes creatures so much now that I find that most decks are creature decks. That's why I can't not have 4x Smallpox in my decks and why I really like the Innocent Blood/Abyssal Gatekeeper support squad.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
The fan created Waste Not is going to be an extremely interesting addition to the archetype, this card is going to come in the 2015 core set and I can't wait.
Took Out
-4 Sign in Blood
-2 Syphon Mind
-2 Mutilate
-3 Bottled Cloister
-1 Bottomless Pit
-1 Wheel of Torture
Added
+4 Small Pox
+2 Pox
+4 Abyssal Gatekeeper
+1 Swamp
+2 Noetic Scales
23 Swamp
Creature
4 Abyssal Gatekeeper
Spells
4 Innocent Blood
2 Mutilate
4 Smallpox
2 Pox
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
4 Necrogen Mists
3 Bottomless Pit
4 Shrieking Affliction
Artifacts
3 Wheel of Torture
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Noetic Scales
It depends. The problem with cards like Necrogen Mists is that when you're casting those when other people are casting creatures you make yourself a target and you can't really defend yourself. This is especially true if your 4 drop is just another do-nothing. What ends up happening is that your deck becomes almost 100% reliant on drawing an early Bridge. I play in huge 8 player games so my perception is probably skewed but I mean I've tried casting Cloister before and people would often kill that to nuke my hand and hinder my ability to draw removal and then just kill me. Necrogen Mists is annoying but it doesn't stop topdecks/cards in play so taking out the discard player while ignoring his discard spells is often the best way to go. That's why I prefer to run Noetic Scales in general. Cloister only seems to win me games in which I was already going to seize victory.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
When it works, it's great, but I should mention the main reason I ran it was because of Gibbering Descent.
A sweeper (with Cloister in play) nukes not just your entire engine, but also your hand. Worth thinking about. I don't play them anymore myself.
I found Bridge was very much a needed card, I'd up to 4.
With 4 Smallpox, 2 POX (good inclusions), 4 mana is usually quite difficult to achieve, even with a high number of lands.
I run 26 lands in my discard deck (which is similar to this), to make sure I can pox whenever I need to, and seldom suffer mana-screw.
I run Vengeful Pharaoh in mine too (I almost never cast it).
The bridge is out of my price range. A year ago they were under $10. Now they are $20.
Holy *****! Mtg USED to be an expensive game, but the last year has seen prices go stupid. I have to wonder how much of this is big stores manipulating prices like the sharemarket, or whether the fact Mtg is increasing in popularity exponentially might be more to do with it. Maybe both?!
I've had only 3 Stoneforge Mystic for ages. When I bought a set way back in Worldwake, they were $8 > Somehow one went missing one night. Now the price is up at $30+, and it's only gonna keep going up. So yeah, I feel your pain greenie.
Anyway, sorry to derail.
I talked to a few people and they said alot the cards that are going up are do to the modern format. You have newer players buying older cards so the demand is higher so the price go's up.
I remember when Bridge from Below was a $20 card, now it's like $5. This is the kinda action I wanna see, expensive cards that people want to buy coming down in price due to reprints. Reprinting staples should be a priority for WoTC, and it's what the core set and commander has the
ability*duty* to do for us every year.I'd simply like deck staples to be within reach, and the number of unobtainable cards (that aren't on the reserved list) to be smaller, rather than freakin huge. I have a feeling I might be asking for too much....
Although to be fair Scourge of Valkas is a horrendous card and you can only chock it's price up to human stupidity. The card was always going to be stone-unplayable in Constructed and it was never going to be a chase casual mythic either. I have absolutely no idea what anyone saw in it. Huntmaster, Tusk, they deserved their price given that they were Standard staples. Scourge... geez...
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold