My old-school Balefire Liege deck has had its time in the sun - time for a change-up to abuse Assemble the Legion, methinks. Sooo, tentative decklist...
Basic Plan
Make the world's angriest soldiers. Assemble is good once it gets going - the Liege, Nobilis and Glory of Warfare are all going to make them very, very angry.
Balefire, as per usual, should be good for an alt-kill or two.
On Some of the More Esoteric Card Choices Initimidation Bolt: I've been packing this in my Balefire Liege decks for years now, and it's wonderful in these situations - surprise fog and removal in one little spell, and triggers the Liege to boot. It's in here mostly for stalling purposes (given that most of the key cards in here are 5-drops), but it should pay its own way. I would consider this ahead of Lightning Helix on most days. Elixir of Immortality: Yes, it's horrible. I know. Mill is running rampant in my meta ATM, thanks to the horror that is Consuming Aberration, and I need a way around it (not to mention being able to recur my stuff when it gets axed). I tend to overvalue recursion, but mill is a real and present threat for this deck. I have a feeling that short of packing an Emmy in here for no particular reason, this might be the only half-decent solution. Reforge the Soul / Skullclamp: The bane of every red/white deck I have ever built has been card draw. I want to solve it once and for all with this deck, and I think this is about as efficient I can get it without helpingmyopponents at the same time too much. While the Lieges will nullify Skullclamp's ability to chew threw Soldiers somewhat, I have a feeling they'll probably pay their own way regardless. Razia's Purification: Not only will this trigger Balefire for giggles, but I suspect resolving this with Balefire / Nobilis / Assemble on the board should be close to game (Assemble should rack up enough counters to head towards lethal before everyone else can recover... in theory...).
This Deck's Issues
Card draw has been the obvious one in the past... I hope I've solved it.
And we've already discussed mill... not sure we can do a lot more than pack Elixirs or Emmys.
The main remaining threat for this deck is evasive creatures. When you're pumping out nothing but weenies, fliers will be a threat. We've got Nobilis, Gisela, O-Rings and Initimidation Bolt to handle them. No idea if that's going to be enough or not.
Finally, this deck is going to be a slow-roller. Its bombs are all mostly 5-drops, and there is no ramp in here. Do we drop something for some? Like Boros Signet? Boros Keystone? Something else? Do we need to stall more?
This deck has some issues. It has no reasonably costed blockers, not nearly enough lands, way too much top-end and most of its cards are entirely win-more. Examples include hits such as das Clamp and Glory of Warfare which are only relevant if you have an active Assemble. If Assemble is running unchecked then you're probably in decent shape regardless. I also question the value of Reforge the Soul. Nothing about that card strikes me as being valuable unless we're assuming that people will just never, ever beat an Assemble.
Still, this deck does have one thing going for it that I really like. You're actually comboing Assemble with a proper support effect; Razia's Purification. In testing Assemble in multiplayer I've come to the conclusion that it's a Planeswalker and little else. If you can protect it and yourself then you'll win but it's going to draw a lot of hate and so you'll need some serious protection. My most successful Assemble decks have been ones that field things such as Jokulhaups, Cataclysm, Wildfire and Destructive Force. Curving a 'Walker into a board clear effect always has and always be an insanely powerful play. The nice thing about Assemble is that it dodges all creature-based removal and so it can and will kill everyone in short order.
So yeah, my personal version of this deck would have less irrelevant fat, more artifact mana and some powerful ways to abuse your Walker.
I smell the need for Emmy and more resets.
Cz, Reforge the Soul is here specifically because I am an expert at reducing myself to topdeck mode in a Boros deck. Reforge will refill my hand (and hopefully screw a few others, as much as they'll potentially be drawing solutions as well). I will likely swap the Elixirs out for a singleton Emmy as well, so Reforge has the added benefit of giving me a way of dumping Emmy to shuffle my yard back in. I do have a couple of cheap and nasty alternate options available in Wild Guess (which puts me off with its double-red CC) and Dangerous Wager (which puts me off by only drawing two cards).
Xyx, yeah, Boros Keyrune indeed.
Still want to keep the buffers in for now - my playgroup is not good at enchantment removal right now, so I am planning on exploiting this. I suspect I'm going to be able to get Assemble up to at least 3-4 counters before people start panicking (and even then, it might not get removed right away). If I can resolve Purification before anyone deals with it, things look mighty good.
This doesn't look like the type of Boros deck which will hit topdeck mode quickly with all those 4 and 5 drops. I wouldn't expect Reforge to disrupt opponents any more or less than you, and Assemble works better with more players stuck in topdeck mode. Reforge seems out of place to me, I think I would want more mana there. Either a bump through Boros Signet or fetching it with Armillary Sphere.
If you do opt to keep the playset of Reforge, I'd squeeze a Mistveil Plains or two into the land base.
I still don't understand how you can play a 24 land deck with inconsistent draw spells + no relevant 1-4 CMC plays and survive. Maybe I'm grossly overestimating the speed and competitiveness of your meta but I mean aren't you just drawing dead if a few people play Grizzly Bears and attack you?
I´m not personally fond of Intimidation Bolt and Master Warcraft like effects because it forces you to tell everybody to clearly announce their attack phase before they declare their attackers and which player they´re going at. Which means you kind of spoil the fact you have this kind of trap in your hand/deck. It may be that your playgroup methodically takes each combat phase one after one, but I´ve never seen this from my end. I would also pick Lightning Helix over Intimidation Bolt anytime, personally.
Depends on what you're looking for in it, I suppose. If you're after 3 damage, you're right, this is not the card for you. I treat it as a Holy Day with benefits (and if that's what you want, it's brilliant).
BTW why do you have Vivid lands in your deck? Why not basic lands instead I wonder?
To remove the potential for colour-screw (e.g. drawing nothing but plains and cards with red mana symbols in their CC). They're a bit slower (hence my only running one of each), but they solve this problem a lot.
I still don't understand how you can play a 24 land deck with inconsistent draw spells + no relevant 1-4 CMC plays and survive. Maybe I'm grossly overestimating the speed and competitiveness of your meta but I mean aren't you just drawing dead if a few people play Grizzly Bears and attack you?
I take it you mean Reforge the Soul as being an inconsistent draw simply because you might run into situations where you don't want to dump your hand? I really have no other idea of what to run here other than the two cruddy ones mentioned earlier. I've tried Mentor of the Meek and found it a bit fragile in my meta, so I'm not convinced it's the solution. Anything else I've missed? What would you be running here?
But yeah, I probably do need to sort out the curve of this deck. The curve's looking like a skyscraper at 5cc.
That said, I do have a tendency to be able to play decks like this, politik my way out of getting attacked before I hit five mana, and then getting rolling. Not that that works every time. I suspect that may be the Anti-Cz Style, right?
I just can't see this deck doing anything on turns 1 - 4. The best you can hope for is a key rune on turn 3. You need to be setting up some kind of defence or starting to assemble some type of plan.
The way that you've built the deck with so many top end cards I'd question the value of the liege. Ideally you want to be playing multiple spells each turn to get some gas out of the liege. The same goes for reforge the soul. Seems there would be opposition decks that could take better advantage of this spell than you.
The deck seems to be playing a lot of cards that only really shine with assemble the legion pumping.
Last point, no way is bolt better than helix especially with a liege in play.
You have almost no plays for opponents' turns. So Bottled Cloister would just net you cards and protect from discard effects, without really disrupting you. I really think land fetching is a priority here though.
You have almost no plays for opponents' turns. So Bottled Cloister would just net you cards and protect from discard effects, without really disrupting you. I really think land fetching is a priority here though.
I agree this is a near-ideal deck to run Bottled, but I'd also say it's a risky recommendation, as you lose your hand if someone destroys it. If artifact hate is common, run at your own risk. I sometimes run it and I'm always holding my breath... But it's just SO PERFECT when used with Ensnaring Bridge...
Depends on what you're looking for in it, I suppose. If you're after 3 damage, you're right, this is not the card for you. I treat it as a Holy Day with benefits (and if that's what you want, it's brilliant).
I don't see how Intimidation Bolt compares to Holy Day at all. Something like Holy Day can be played after someone plays a bunch of cards (buffs) trying to, say, put you out of the game, and you can play this, rendering everything played before it useless. While I still wouldn't run Holy Day, that's a far cry from what Intimidation Bolt gives you. I don't see the appeal of this card at all. Unless you were playing something like Siren's Call to combo with it, I wouldn't run it. You might as well run Festival since you claim you aren't after the 3 damage & even then that's likely inferior to Holy Day (for the aforementioned reasons). The targeted 3 points of damage are the only thing separating the two (& Festival/Holy Day is cheaper by 2 mana!) so you must be after those points in some fashion...
That said, I do have a tendency to be able to play decks like this, politik my way out of getting attacked before I hit five mana, and then getting rolling.
I take it you mean Reforge the Soul as being an inconsistent draw simply because you might run into situations where you don't want to dump your hand? I really have no other idea of what to run here other than the two cruddy ones mentioned earlier. I've tried Mentor of the Meek and found it a bit fragile in my meta, so I'm not convinced it's the solution. Anything else I've missed? What would you be running here?
My point wasn't that you should be running better draw spells. My point was that your current batch is inconsistent. Sometimes it'll costs 2, other times it'll cost 5. Sometimes you'll draw it, other times you won't. Sometimes you'll want to cast it, other times you may not, etc. I'm not saying that you have better options but I mean if your deck doesn't hit 5 mana then it basically can't play Magic. 24 land decks do not go 5 for 5 all the time, you can't rely on your draw and even if you do draw lands some of them ETBT. So like, at best you start doing something on turn 5... but what if it's turn 6? Turn 7? Like, what if you don't get lucky every game? I don't understand how this type of deck could ever succeed unless your opponents were actual goldfish and/or unless you cheated.
Have you goldfished this deck at all? Like, shuffled up 15 starting hands and played them out for 10 turns? How soon can you stifle a couple of Grizzly Bears on average?
Depends how you look at it. Everyone engages in table talk and politics and I'm no different. That being said no one at my table is a goldfish. If someone is literally doing nothing for 5 turns then he obviously has a hand full of bombs. The best way to handle these people is to hit them for a lot of damage early on and keep them at a low life total. You don't normally kill them off for the sake of fun but at the same time you're not going to let them get a free win. Anyways, eventually they'll start casting powerful spells but it's mostly pointless because eventually someone will get bored and burn them out or hit them with something evasive. You let them play Magic for a bit but I mean you never let them win.
If people literally do nothing to stop you from playing ultra greedy decks, by all means, field them. I just usually assume that people have a basic grasp of strategy and a desire to win. A deck with a real curve isn't going to beat ForceDotDeck if it gets to play 20 turns of Magic so you better cripple those people early because you're never beating them late.
You're taking his comparison too literally. It's just a burn spell that he can use to blank someone's combat phase early on while he's setting up. His meta sounds very casual from the sounds of things and so there's a decent chance that any defensive strategy could work.
The Johnny in me loves to smash together cards and then figure out how to pull the deck together later - and that's why we end up with horrible things like this where every second card costs 5cc. And also why I bring them here. I am highly aware that some of my decks fall into this category - in my meta, sometimes they're allowed to fly, and sometimes they get smacked down before they can fire. Of course, when they're allowed to fly, it is a thing of perfect beauty that makes mashing the whole thing together in the first place worthwhile. But the challenge is to have it fly consistently!
So, yes, agree completely on the points regarding the landbase. I know faaar too well the value of a good landbase. What I have listed in here ATM is what I know I'm going to have available before I hit up the stores. That said, I am on the horror that is known as Married Man's Budget. It doesn't always stretch to playsets of Clifftop Retreat (let alone Sacred Foundry). That will be the challenge. How do we ramp / fix this land base on a budget? Is it going to be all Boros Signet / Keyrune, given there's not a great deal sitting in that glorious ~$1 space for RW land-wise? Iunno. Between this and the draw spells, this is where I'd really like to hear what people have had experience with. I could probably filch my sole Arid Mesa for this deck, and I could probably juuust stretch to a playset of Clifftop Retreat this time around (if I find them cheap enough). But I'm also in the process of trying to finish getting the full set of ten shocklands for my cube (which as you can imagine has the potential to eat a fair bit of budget too... I'm mighty tempted to accidentaly just get the missing Sacred Foundry and slot it in here until I can afford the rest).
Bottled Cloister is indeed awesome, but might just be a tad too risky in my meta. For some reason, enchantments generally live while artifacts get hated on. I don't know why.
That said, I do have its big brother Grafted Skullcap available if necessary. I've paired it with Ensnaring Bridge and Null Brooch for a long time, and have the opportunity to suit them up infront of a new combo. Is this it? Or is dumping my hand every turn going to prove a little too disruptive? And yes, heading this way pretty much axes the Lieges and Nobilis of Wars.
I do have an unfathomable love for seeing Balefire Liege, Nobilis of War and Glory of Warfare paired together (those three have brought me some fun times in the past), and would love to see them helping little soldiers ream people, but if we're able to break Assemble the Legion in a more consistent but still 100% fun manner, I'm all for it.
Boros Guildgate doesn't get enough love, in my opinion; besides its typing as a "Gate" and not a Mountain/Plains, it's a perfectly serviceable dual land, and it's cheap as dirt.
Private Mod Note
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"The sword blazed bright as he held it high, filling him with righteous might." - Book 4, Tome of Kor-Nevan
Boros Guildgate doesn't get enough love, in my opinion; besides its typing as a "Gate" and not a Mountain/Plains, it's a perfectly serviceable dual land, and it's cheap as dirt.
I don't think you realize how expensive dirt is. Have you ever tried to buy the nitrogen-rich stuff? Good God! That **** is fancier than the food that I eat ;~;.
Anyways, yeah, I gotta agree that Vivid Lands make no sense over Gates in 2 color decks such as these. If you're going to play an ETBT land then there's basically no reason to touch anything else until you've maxed out on these kinds of options.
Pondering where to take this one now.
I could go all out, splash green and play Predatory Advantage for twice the fun, but that's another 5-drop. Yeesh. I can't avoid them with this one.
(And yeah, Boros Guildgate is definitely better than Vivids. This discussion kind of gave me an epiphany on that. Not sure how I hadn't come to realise that before. You know, given writing a guide to budget lands and all...)
I mean I personally don't see how most reasonable decks beat an Assemble into "Jokulhaups" type draw. If I were to splash for anything it would be draw spells from Black/Blue and otherwise I would just run a slew of powerful, defensive bodies and probably some mass removal. We could even go deep on some Greater Gargadon plan in case we don't see an Assemble.
I mean I personally don't see how most reasonable decks beat an Assemble into "Jokulhaups" type draw. If I were to splash for anything it would be draw spells from Black/Blue and otherwise I would just run a slew of powerful, defensive bodies and probably some mass removal. We could even go deep on some Greater Gargadon plan in case we don't see an Assemble.
I had been pondering the draw spells, and I think I've come to the conclusion that Tezzeret's Gambit is probably the best draw spell we could throw in here - potentially colourless, and knocks up the Assemble if it's out. Might even have to throw a 'walker or two in for a giggle if we head down this route (I think I've got an Ajani Goldmane spare, and his second ability likes playing with lots of weenies).
Enchantment-heavy Jokulhaups sounds like fun (probably a better option than Razia's Purification if we're not running Balefire Liege, as it doesn't potentially leave your opponents' three best creatures on the table).
Complete toolbox of a landbase, based mostly on what is available. The Masques depletion lands will play well with Gambit, will help ramp, and I probably won't care too much losing them to Jokulhaups.
Goldfishing seems to show up Emrakul - no way of discarding him, and no way of playing him (given the lands keep getting swept), so he sits in your hand. Suspect I might need to switch to two Gaea's Blessings instead (probably dropping Emmy and Wolf Run to do this). Darksteel Citadel is also very good (especially if I've lost Riftstone Portal to a 'Haups). Considering even dropping a couple more basics to get more copies in.
At least one goldfish has given me Turn 4 Assemble, Turn 5 'Haups. Good things happen after that.
I think that you need to stop being paranoid about mill. This is a turn 6 deck. You're not getting milled out of turn 6. Yeah, sure, you won't win every game with this thing. That's good. No one should win every game. Just take the wins when you go turn 5 Assemble/Predatory into a turn 6 Haups. It'll happen often enough to make you happy but not so frequently that the table will feel oppressed (I don't think anyways).
Riftstone Portal is way too cute and needlessly win-more. I can't imagine that it'd ever serve you well. KWR and Darksteel Citadel also seem wholly unnecessary. Play lands that tap for colored mana.
Skyshroud Elf can't be better than a Rampant Growth/Farseek (assuming that you add more duals obv) can it? Seems exceptionally weak to me personally.
I think that Beastmaster Ascension should be another set of Cataclysm effects personally. 4 doesn't seem like quite enough.
O-Ring should probably just be StP or PtE if you have 'em lying around. I imagine that it's mostly there for creatures and so you may as well play something more efficient given that most of your lands are ****ty and ETBT.
I think that you need to stop being paranoid about mill. This is a turn 6 deck. You're not getting milled out of turn 6. Yeah, sure, you won't win every game with this thing. That's good. No one should win every game. Just take the wins when you go turn 5 Assemble/Predatory into a turn 6 Haups. It'll happen often enough to make you happy but not so frequently that the table will feel oppressed (I don't think anyways).
Riftstone Portal is way too cute and needlessly win-more. I can't imagine that it'd ever serve you well. KWR and Darksteel Citadel also seem wholly unnecessary. Play lands that tap for colored mana.
Skyshroud Elf can't be better than a Rampant Growth/Farseek (assuming that you add more duals obv) can it? Seems exceptionally weak to me personally.
I think that Beastmaster Ascension should be another set of Cataclysm effects personally. 4 doesn't seem like quite enough.
O-Ring should probably just be StP or PtE if you have 'em lying around. I imagine that it's mostly there for creatures and so you may as well play something more efficient given that most of your lands are ****ty and ETBT.
It's going to be an interesting one to run past the playgroup - multiple sweepers and land destruction have not seen much run in the past few years (mostly because we went through a phase where FFAs involved a board sweep every few turns, making the games hours long). But they are creeping back in a little. I'll be intrigued to see how they react to multiple Jokulhaups in a game. I suspect if I pull it off too much, I might get politely asked to pull it apart.
So to that end, I suspect pushing the resets to 8 is probably a bridge too far for the meta. That said, I think I'd be comfortable with 5-6. Not sure what I'd put in... I'm a little leery of Cataclysm and Razia's Purification, simply because it leaves my opponents with their best permanents. I have an Obliterate handy (essentially an uncounterable 'Haups), but I suspect that might have too high a CC for this deck - it really needs to top out at 6CC. Maybe I just go with a Wrath variant? Perhaps Martial Coup if I can source some?
I would like to keep at least 2-3 Beastmaster Ascensions in, primarily because I'm worried this deck won't have the firepower to end the game quickly post-Haups without them. If there's anything that will get this deck hated quickly by my meta, it's going to be not being able to end the game shortly after landing Assemble / Haups back-to-back. You know, if you're going to make people cry like that, at least have the decency to put them out of their misery quickly and all that...
You know you love Riftstone Portal. I am Johnny. Sickeningly cute combos is what I do. Indulge me for one card here.
Past Riftstone Portal, I agree that Darksteel Citadel and Skyshroud Elf are not fantastic by themselves, but they do riff off each other here. The Citadel sees me convincingly winning the mana race post-Haups, and the Elf is quite possibly the best mana-fixing solution available to Naya decks (seriously, if you've never played with it in a Naya deck, it's incredible... they need to reprint it bigtime). Obviously I'm going to be hoarding the Elves and land in my hand if I'm about to drop a 'Haups... if I follow up straight away with the Elves, my colour problems are solved immediately.
I did strongly consider Path to Exile in place of O-Ring, but this deck has one fear... Aura Shards. It does float around in my meta a little (including in some of my own decks that Mrs. Bl00m might suit up against me). I'd like to at least be capable of handling it, as this deck is going to pack up and cry in the corner against it, hence O-Ring. Ideally this slot needs to be something that can take out either a creature or an enchantment, and that's a pretty thin bunch in Naya colours. I'm happy to suck it up against planeswalkers, and artifacts and lands are going to get swept by 'Haups. Just need to handle Aura Shards and good fatties in between the sweeps. PtE is way ahead of Swords here, in that Swords will provide far too much lifegain (given I could be pointing this at rampantly large Consuming Aberrations), and 'Haups will sweep the land PtE hands out.
Dude, don't you know how quickly Assemble the Legion wins? Cast it on 5, 'haups on 6, kill everyone in five quick turns!
Rly? Maths (to make sure, not to rub anything in):
Turn 6: Legion has one counter, you get one Soldier. Then you Haups. Ergo, nothing left.
Turn 7: Two counters = two soldiers. Both have summoning sickness. No damage.
Turn 8. Three more. Swing for 2.
Turn 9: Four more. Swing for 5.
Turn 10: Five more. Swing for 9.
Turn 11: Six more. Swing for 14.
That's 30 damage in those five turns. Not enough to rub out upwards of four players in a hurry (hence me considering Beastmaster Ascension to turn the dial up to 11).
The creatures have Haste. Even if the card doesn't kill in exactly 5 hits there's no way it kills in more than 8 or something. I don't see the point in adding a card that's so completely win-more that it's not even funny.
'Geddon + Riftstone Portal isn't value. Really not sure why you think it is. It like literally does nothing. All of your lands tap for Green or White anyways... except the Portal itself. Makes no sense at all.
The creatures have Haste. Even if the card doesn't kill in exactly 5 hits there's no way it kills in more than 8 or something. I don't see the point in adding a card that's so completely win-more that it's not even funny.
'Geddon + Riftstone Portal isn't value. Really not sure why you think it is. It like literally does nothing. All of your lands tap for Green or White anyways... except the Portal itself. Makes no sense at all.
Ah, how can two words I've missed all along read so beautifully?
That means 50 damage in five turns. Yeah, alright. Sold.
Finally, finally ran for the first time last night... and, oh yes, this things cranks. It won a five-player free-for-all with an imperfect draw.
It dropped Predatory Advantage on Turn 3 (thanks to Hickory Woodlot and Skyshroud Elf), and was going to Jokulhaups on Turn 6 until it was Molten Psyched out of my hand.
From there, the Charmbreaker Devils player got a Devils out with Unmake in the graveyard, the Gruul player got Gruul Ragebeast and Cream of the Crop out to start churning, and the (almost-manaless) dredge guy got a 12/12 Splinterfright on the board... and then I dropped the 'Haups.
My playgroup has shied away from this type of reset for a long time, so nobody at all saw it coming. I'd held onto a hand of land, Predatory Advantage and Assemble the Legion, and had the rest of the table dead in five quick turns. Winnaaaar. Let's see how long they let me play it for.
You're probably going to have to elaborate on that one a bit because the card seems absolutely horrendous to me. This deck just needs to hit land drops so that it can cast its Armageddon. Why on God's green Earth would it want to Stone Rain itself for an effect that does actual nothing then the deck is doing what it's supposed to do?
4 Balefire Liege
4 Nobilis of War
1 Darien, King of Kjeldor
1 Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
1 Field Marshal
Spells - 26
4 Assemble the Legion
4 Glory of Warfare
4 Intimidation Bolt
4 Reforge the Soul
3 Skullclamp
1 Razia's Purification
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Elixir of Immortality
1 Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Vivid Crag
1 Vivid Meadow
1 Boros Garrison
10 Plains
8 Mountain
Basic Plan
Make the world's angriest soldiers. Assemble is good once it gets going - the Liege, Nobilis and Glory of Warfare are all going to make them very, very angry.
Balefire, as per usual, should be good for an alt-kill or two.
On Some of the More Esoteric Card Choices
Initimidation Bolt: I've been packing this in my Balefire Liege decks for years now, and it's wonderful in these situations - surprise fog and removal in one little spell, and triggers the Liege to boot. It's in here mostly for stalling purposes (given that most of the key cards in here are 5-drops), but it should pay its own way. I would consider this ahead of Lightning Helix on most days.
Elixir of Immortality: Yes, it's horrible. I know. Mill is running rampant in my meta ATM, thanks to the horror that is Consuming Aberration, and I need a way around it (not to mention being able to recur my stuff when it gets axed). I tend to overvalue recursion, but mill is a real and present threat for this deck. I have a feeling that short of packing an Emmy in here for no particular reason, this might be the only half-decent solution.
Reforge the Soul / Skullclamp: The bane of every red/white deck I have ever built has been card draw. I want to solve it once and for all with this deck, and I think this is about as efficient I can get it without helping my opponents at the same time too much. While the Lieges will nullify Skullclamp's ability to chew threw Soldiers somewhat, I have a feeling they'll probably pay their own way regardless.
Razia's Purification: Not only will this trigger Balefire for giggles, but I suspect resolving this with Balefire / Nobilis / Assemble on the board should be close to game (Assemble should rack up enough counters to head towards lethal before everyone else can recover... in theory...).
This Deck's Issues
Card draw has been the obvious one in the past... I hope I've solved it.
And we've already discussed mill... not sure we can do a lot more than pack Elixirs or Emmys.
The main remaining threat for this deck is evasive creatures. When you're pumping out nothing but weenies, fliers will be a threat. We've got Nobilis, Gisela, O-Rings and Initimidation Bolt to handle them. No idea if that's going to be enough or not.
Finally, this deck is going to be a slow-roller. Its bombs are all mostly 5-drops, and there is no ramp in here. Do we drop something for some? Like Boros Signet? Boros Keystone? Something else? Do we need to stall more?
I'm also considering Slayers' Stronghold, Knight-Captain of Eos (for more fog), Red Sun's Zenith (for a burn alt-win) and Chandra Nalaar (just because she's the only walker I have handy).
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Still, this deck does have one thing going for it that I really like. You're actually comboing Assemble with a proper support effect; Razia's Purification. In testing Assemble in multiplayer I've come to the conclusion that it's a Planeswalker and little else. If you can protect it and yourself then you'll win but it's going to draw a lot of hate and so you'll need some serious protection. My most successful Assemble decks have been ones that field things such as Jokulhaups, Cataclysm, Wildfire and Destructive Force. Curving a 'Walker into a board clear effect always has and always be an insanely powerful play. The nice thing about Assemble is that it dodges all creature-based removal and so it can and will kill everyone in short order.
So yeah, my personal version of this deck would have less irrelevant fat, more artifact mana and some powerful ways to abuse your Walker.
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Cz, Reforge the Soul is here specifically because I am an expert at reducing myself to topdeck mode in a Boros deck. Reforge will refill my hand (and hopefully screw a few others, as much as they'll potentially be drawing solutions as well). I will likely swap the Elixirs out for a singleton Emmy as well, so Reforge has the added benefit of giving me a way of dumping Emmy to shuffle my yard back in. I do have a couple of cheap and nasty alternate options available in Wild Guess (which puts me off with its double-red CC) and Dangerous Wager (which puts me off by only drawing two cards).
Xyx, yeah, Boros Keyrune indeed.
Okay then... let's go hard or go home...
4 Balefire Liege
4 Nobilis of War
1 Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Assemble the Legion
4 Glory of Warfare
4 Intimidation Bolt
4 Reforge the Soul
3 Skullclamp
4 Razia's Purification
3 Boros Keyrune
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Vivid Crag
1 Vivid Meadow
1 Boros Garrison
10 Plains
9 Mountain
Still want to keep the buffers in for now - my playgroup is not good at enchantment removal right now, so I am planning on exploiting this. I suspect I'm going to be able to get Assemble up to at least 3-4 counters before people start panicking (and even then, it might not get removed right away). If I can resolve Purification before anyone deals with it, things look mighty good.
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If you do opt to keep the playset of Reforge, I'd squeeze a Mistveil Plains or two into the land base.
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Depends on what you're looking for in it, I suppose. If you're after 3 damage, you're right, this is not the card for you. I treat it as a Holy Day with benefits (and if that's what you want, it's brilliant).
To remove the potential for colour-screw (e.g. drawing nothing but plains and cards with red mana symbols in their CC). They're a bit slower (hence my only running one of each), but they solve this problem a lot.
I take it you mean Reforge the Soul as being an inconsistent draw simply because you might run into situations where you don't want to dump your hand? I really have no other idea of what to run here other than the two cruddy ones mentioned earlier. I've tried Mentor of the Meek and found it a bit fragile in my meta, so I'm not convinced it's the solution. Anything else I've missed? What would you be running here?
But yeah, I probably do need to sort out the curve of this deck. The curve's looking like a skyscraper at 5cc.
That said, I do have a tendency to be able to play decks like this, politik my way out of getting attacked before I hit five mana, and then getting rolling. Not that that works every time. I suspect that may be the Anti-Cz Style, right?
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The way that you've built the deck with so many top end cards I'd question the value of the liege. Ideally you want to be playing multiple spells each turn to get some gas out of the liege. The same goes for reforge the soul. Seems there would be opposition decks that could take better advantage of this spell than you.
The deck seems to be playing a lot of cards that only really shine with assemble the legion pumping.
Last point, no way is bolt better than helix especially with a liege in play.
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I agree this is a near-ideal deck to run Bottled, but I'd also say it's a risky recommendation, as you lose your hand if someone destroys it. If artifact hate is common, run at your own risk. I sometimes run it and I'm always holding my breath... But it's just SO PERFECT when used with Ensnaring Bridge...
I don't see how Intimidation Bolt compares to Holy Day at all. Something like Holy Day can be played after someone plays a bunch of cards (buffs) trying to, say, put you out of the game, and you can play this, rendering everything played before it useless. While I still wouldn't run Holy Day, that's a far cry from what Intimidation Bolt gives you. I don't see the appeal of this card at all. Unless you were playing something like Siren's Call to combo with it, I wouldn't run it. You might as well run Festival since you claim you aren't after the 3 damage & even then that's likely inferior to Holy Day (for the aforementioned reasons). The targeted 3 points of damage are the only thing separating the two (& Festival/Holy Day is cheaper by 2 mana!) so you must be after those points in some fashion...
Lucky you...
.
Kokusho, The Evening Star, Exsanguinate and Glen Elendra Archmage have a restriction of 1 per deck.
My point wasn't that you should be running better draw spells. My point was that your current batch is inconsistent. Sometimes it'll costs 2, other times it'll cost 5. Sometimes you'll draw it, other times you won't. Sometimes you'll want to cast it, other times you may not, etc. I'm not saying that you have better options but I mean if your deck doesn't hit 5 mana then it basically can't play Magic. 24 land decks do not go 5 for 5 all the time, you can't rely on your draw and even if you do draw lands some of them ETBT. So like, at best you start doing something on turn 5... but what if it's turn 6? Turn 7? Like, what if you don't get lucky every game? I don't understand how this type of deck could ever succeed unless your opponents were actual goldfish and/or unless you cheated.
Have you goldfished this deck at all? Like, shuffled up 15 starting hands and played them out for 10 turns? How soon can you stifle a couple of Grizzly Bears on average?
Depends how you look at it. Everyone engages in table talk and politics and I'm no different. That being said no one at my table is a goldfish. If someone is literally doing nothing for 5 turns then he obviously has a hand full of bombs. The best way to handle these people is to hit them for a lot of damage early on and keep them at a low life total. You don't normally kill them off for the sake of fun but at the same time you're not going to let them get a free win. Anyways, eventually they'll start casting powerful spells but it's mostly pointless because eventually someone will get bored and burn them out or hit them with something evasive. You let them play Magic for a bit but I mean you never let them win.
If people literally do nothing to stop you from playing ultra greedy decks, by all means, field them. I just usually assume that people have a basic grasp of strategy and a desire to win. A deck with a real curve isn't going to beat Force Dot Deck if it gets to play 20 turns of Magic so you better cripple those people early because you're never beating them late.
You're taking his comparison too literally. It's just a burn spell that he can use to blank someone's combat phase early on while he's setting up. His meta sounds very casual from the sounds of things and so there's a decent chance that any defensive strategy could work.
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The Johnny in me loves to smash together cards and then figure out how to pull the deck together later - and that's why we end up with horrible things like this where every second card costs 5cc. And also why I bring them here. I am highly aware that some of my decks fall into this category - in my meta, sometimes they're allowed to fly, and sometimes they get smacked down before they can fire. Of course, when they're allowed to fly, it is a thing of perfect beauty that makes mashing the whole thing together in the first place worthwhile. But the challenge is to have it fly consistently!
So, yes, agree completely on the points regarding the landbase. I know faaar too well the value of a good landbase. What I have listed in here ATM is what I know I'm going to have available before I hit up the stores. That said, I am on the horror that is known as Married Man's Budget. It doesn't always stretch to playsets of Clifftop Retreat (let alone Sacred Foundry). That will be the challenge. How do we ramp / fix this land base on a budget? Is it going to be all Boros Signet / Keyrune, given there's not a great deal sitting in that glorious ~$1 space for RW land-wise? Iunno. Between this and the draw spells, this is where I'd really like to hear what people have had experience with. I could probably filch my sole Arid Mesa for this deck, and I could probably juuust stretch to a playset of Clifftop Retreat this time around (if I find them cheap enough). But I'm also in the process of trying to finish getting the full set of ten shocklands for my cube (which as you can imagine has the potential to eat a fair bit of budget too... I'm mighty tempted to accidentaly just get the missing Sacred Foundry and slot it in here until I can afford the rest).
Bottled Cloister is indeed awesome, but might just be a tad too risky in my meta. For some reason, enchantments generally live while artifacts get hated on. I don't know why.
That said, I do have its big brother Grafted Skullcap available if necessary. I've paired it with Ensnaring Bridge and Null Brooch for a long time, and have the opportunity to suit them up infront of a new combo. Is this it? Or is dumping my hand every turn going to prove a little too disruptive? And yes, heading this way pretty much axes the Lieges and Nobilis of Wars.
I do have an unfathomable love for seeing Balefire Liege, Nobilis of War and Glory of Warfare paired together (those three have brought me some fun times in the past), and would love to see them helping little soldiers ream people, but if we're able to break Assemble the Legion in a more consistent but still 100% fun manner, I'm all for it.
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I don't think you realize how expensive dirt is. Have you ever tried to buy the nitrogen-rich stuff? Good God! That **** is fancier than the food that I eat ;~;.
Anyways, yeah, I gotta agree that Vivid Lands make no sense over Gates in 2 color decks such as these. If you're going to play an ETBT land then there's basically no reason to touch anything else until you've maxed out on these kinds of options.
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I could go all out, splash green and play Predatory Advantage for twice the fun, but that's another 5-drop. Yeesh. I can't avoid them with this one.
Do we just go all-out, and build around Assemble the Legion and Razia's Purification?
(And yeah, Boros Guildgate is definitely better than Vivids. This discussion kind of gave me an epiphany on that. Not sure how I hadn't come to realise that before. You know, given writing a guide to budget lands and all...)
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I had been pondering the draw spells, and I think I've come to the conclusion that Tezzeret's Gambit is probably the best draw spell we could throw in here - potentially colourless, and knocks up the Assemble if it's out. Might even have to throw a 'walker or two in for a giggle if we head down this route (I think I've got an Ajani Goldmane spare, and his second ability likes playing with lots of weenies).
Enchantment-heavy Jokulhaups sounds like fun (probably a better option than Razia's Purification if we're not running Balefire Liege, as it doesn't potentially leave your opponents' three best creatures on the table).
Hmmm...
4 Assemble the Legion
4 Predatory Advantage
4 Beastmaster Ascension
4 Jokulhaups
4 Darksteel Ingot
4 Tezzeret's Gambit
4 Oblivion Ring
Creatures - 6
2 Birds of Paradise
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Skyshroud Elf
4 Jungle Shrine
1 Clifftop Retreat
2 Rootbound Crag
1 Stomping Ground
1 Arid Mesa
1 Windswept Heath
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Hickory Woodlot
1 Remote Farm
1 Sandstone Needle
3 Forest
4 Mountain
4 Plains
Complete toolbox of a landbase, based mostly on what is available. The Masques depletion lands will play well with Gambit, will help ramp, and I probably won't care too much losing them to Jokulhaups.
Goldfishing seems to show up Emrakul - no way of discarding him, and no way of playing him (given the lands keep getting swept), so he sits in your hand. Suspect I might need to switch to two Gaea's Blessings instead (probably dropping Emmy and Wolf Run to do this).
Darksteel Citadel is also very good (especially if I've lost Riftstone Portal to a 'Haups). Considering even dropping a couple more basics to get more copies in.
At least one goldfish has given me Turn 4 Assemble, Turn 5 'Haups. Good things happen after that.
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Riftstone Portal is way too cute and needlessly win-more. I can't imagine that it'd ever serve you well. KWR and Darksteel Citadel also seem wholly unnecessary. Play lands that tap for colored mana.
Skyshroud Elf can't be better than a Rampant Growth/Farseek (assuming that you add more duals obv) can it? Seems exceptionally weak to me personally.
I think that Beastmaster Ascension should be another set of Cataclysm effects personally. 4 doesn't seem like quite enough.
O-Ring should probably just be StP or PtE if you have 'em lying around. I imagine that it's mostly there for creatures and so you may as well play something more efficient given that most of your lands are ****ty and ETBT.
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It's going to be an interesting one to run past the playgroup - multiple sweepers and land destruction have not seen much run in the past few years (mostly because we went through a phase where FFAs involved a board sweep every few turns, making the games hours long). But they are creeping back in a little. I'll be intrigued to see how they react to multiple Jokulhaups in a game. I suspect if I pull it off too much, I might get politely asked to pull it apart.
So to that end, I suspect pushing the resets to 8 is probably a bridge too far for the meta. That said, I think I'd be comfortable with 5-6. Not sure what I'd put in... I'm a little leery of Cataclysm and Razia's Purification, simply because it leaves my opponents with their best permanents. I have an Obliterate handy (essentially an uncounterable 'Haups), but I suspect that might have too high a CC for this deck - it really needs to top out at 6CC. Maybe I just go with a Wrath variant? Perhaps Martial Coup if I can source some?
I would like to keep at least 2-3 Beastmaster Ascensions in, primarily because I'm worried this deck won't have the firepower to end the game quickly post-Haups without them. If there's anything that will get this deck hated quickly by my meta, it's going to be not being able to end the game shortly after landing Assemble / Haups back-to-back. You know, if you're going to make people cry like that, at least have the decency to put them out of their misery quickly and all that...
You know you love Riftstone Portal. I am Johnny. Sickeningly cute combos is what I do. Indulge me for one card here.
Past Riftstone Portal, I agree that Darksteel Citadel and Skyshroud Elf are not fantastic by themselves, but they do riff off each other here. The Citadel sees me convincingly winning the mana race post-Haups, and the Elf is quite possibly the best mana-fixing solution available to Naya decks (seriously, if you've never played with it in a Naya deck, it's incredible... they need to reprint it bigtime). Obviously I'm going to be hoarding the Elves and land in my hand if I'm about to drop a 'Haups... if I follow up straight away with the Elves, my colour problems are solved immediately.
I did strongly consider Path to Exile in place of O-Ring, but this deck has one fear... Aura Shards. It does float around in my meta a little (including in some of my own decks that Mrs. Bl00m might suit up against me). I'd like to at least be capable of handling it, as this deck is going to pack up and cry in the corner against it, hence O-Ring. Ideally this slot needs to be something that can take out either a creature or an enchantment, and that's a pretty thin bunch in Naya colours. I'm happy to suck it up against planeswalkers, and artifacts and lands are going to get swept by 'Haups. Just need to handle Aura Shards and good fatties in between the sweeps. PtE is way ahead of Swords here, in that Swords will provide far too much lifegain (given I could be pointing this at rampantly large Consuming Aberrations), and 'Haups will sweep the land PtE hands out.
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Rly? Maths (to make sure, not to rub anything in):
Turn 6: Legion has one counter, you get one Soldier. Then you Haups. Ergo, nothing left.
Turn 7: Two counters = two soldiers. Both have summoning sickness. No damage.
Turn 8. Three more. Swing for 2.
Turn 9: Four more. Swing for 5.
Turn 10: Five more. Swing for 9.
Turn 11: Six more. Swing for 14.
That's 30 damage in those five turns. Not enough to rub out upwards of four players in a hurry (hence me considering Beastmaster Ascension to turn the dial up to 11).
Agreed, Flagstones cracked my thoughts. Unfortunately, I traded my only copy (though I'm pretty sure it was for something good)!
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'Geddon + Riftstone Portal isn't value. Really not sure why you think it is. It like literally does nothing. All of your lands tap for Green or White anyways... except the Portal itself. Makes no sense at all.
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Ah, how can two words I've missed all along read so beautifully?
That means 50 damage in five turns. Yeah, alright. Sold.
-4 Beastmaster Ascension
-1 Oblivion Ring
-1 Emmy
-1 Wolf Run
-1 Riftstone Portal
-1 Jungle Shrine
-1 Mountain
-1 Plains
+1 Obliterate
+2 Path to Exile
+2 Idyllic Tutor
+1 Temple Garden
+3 Darksteel Citadel
4 Assemble the Legion
4 Predatory Advantage
4 Jokulhaups
1 Obliterate
4 Darksteel Ingot
4 Tezzeret's Gambit
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Path to Exile
2 Idyllic Tutor
2 Birds of Paradise
3 Skyshroud Elf
Land - 26
3 Jungle Shrine
1 Clifftop Retreat
2 Rootbound Crag
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Retreat
1 Arid Mesa
1 Windswept Heath
4 Darksteel Citadel
1 Hickory Woodlot
1 Remote Farm
1 Sandstone Needle
3 Forest
3 Mountain
3 Plains
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It dropped Predatory Advantage on Turn 3 (thanks to Hickory Woodlot and Skyshroud Elf), and was going to Jokulhaups on Turn 6 until it was Molten Psyched out of my hand.
From there, the Charmbreaker Devils player got a Devils out with Unmake in the graveyard, the Gruul player got Gruul Ragebeast and Cream of the Crop out to start churning, and the (almost-manaless) dredge guy got a 12/12 Splinterfright on the board... and then I dropped the 'Haups.
My playgroup has shied away from this type of reset for a long time, so nobody at all saw it coming. I'd held onto a hand of land, Predatory Advantage and Assemble the Legion, and had the rest of the table dead in five quick turns. Winnaaaar. Let's see how long they let me play it for.
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I wonder if a Kjeldoran Outpost could find a home here?
You're probably going to have to elaborate on that one a bit because the card seems absolutely horrendous to me. This deck just needs to hit land drops so that it can cast its Armageddon. Why on God's green Earth would it want to Stone Rain itself for an effect that does actual nothing then the deck is doing what it's supposed to do?
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