Super old deck. Hasn't seen the light of day in quite awhile, probably because it's terrible. What would you do with it, can it be salvaged or just recycled?
Through a lot of deliberation and theory crafting, this is what I decided on going with. Even still, this list isn't set in stone. I can pull the Masters for 2 more Visitors or 1 Visitor and 1 Land or even if I feel I need to add something else to the deck.. The Masters and the Sanitarium are my ways to mitigate Waste Nots weakness in the late game while Master also works as another win-con.
Discard decks work best when you punish the opponent for not having (enough) cards in hand rather than punishing the actual discard. Because once the oppoent is in top deck mode, all that discard stuff of yours is useless. Blightning is very good, because it deals damage to the opponent even without him discarding, so it is always useful. Lavaborn Muse punishes the opponent for not having many cards, and works even better in multiples. And as a creature, it can block, attack and kill the opponent directly. So I'd include a fourth copy of that.
But you have a bunch of do-nothing cards, that need others to achieve something, that most likely will only be mediocre even if it works out. Those cards are Larceny, Pain Magnification, and Liliana's Caress. Megrim decks have never worked out well for anyone I know that tried to build one, including myself, it's just not a very good strategy. I'd cut all of those entirely.
Rekindled Flame is nice tech in a discard deck, both wincon and removal. You want as many as possible. I'd also run a full playset of Terminate, and that should be enough removal for the deck. Royal Assassin is slow and small, and may not find a legal target. Still, it's repeatable removal, but I think, you can use the slot better.
Those are my thoughts based on what is currently in the deck. There are lots of suitable cards out there, that may find a home in your deck. But we need to know your budget for getting new cards, as well as any format restrictions to better help you out. The deck is salvagable, but has to be more streamlined and focussed.
Those were my thoughts essentially. Also one of the reasons it's probably sat a while, megrim decks are lacking.
I was thinking about going towards an 8rack style deck; but IoK and Thoughtsieze doesn't come cheep. There is no specific format as I really only play casually. Budget, maybe $100 would probably be the most I want to spend on upgrades.
Forced draw is a time honored deck style going back to Underworld Dreams. What you need are locking cards to keep you alive and wheel cards to force them to discard their hands over and over again. The best wheel effects are going to be expensive, but Dark Deal is cheap, and Reforge the Soul is decent. Finally there is collective defiance, rounding out some cheap wheels. We also have bottomless pit to slowly sap the hope from our opponents.
Next you have caress and megrim, so that is fine. The goal is going to be wheeling them out, so those effectively resolve the win conditions for you.
Then there is elements to keep you alive. For this deck I would suggest keeping it simple: Glacial Chasm, Duress, and some spot removal.
Add in dark ritual to get out your megrims and caresses early, with discard backup and you should be able to kill opponents quickly and reliably.
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Pauper: UB Wight Phantasm RB Burn UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
While I could go Force Draw route with Kederekt Parasite, Underworld Dreams, Teferi's Puzzlebox and the like, I'm not sure that's a direction I really want to go. Not that it's bad, but giving your opponent new cards all the time can make it a very high variance strategy.
It would probably be better to go the 8rack route with some burn thrown in.
Maybe something like this? AV to give me some much needed draw power. Vortex to speed to the end and counter incidental lifegain. Auger just being an upgrade for the Thrull. Dropped flames to lower curve and added bolts. 18 discard sources with 4 being reuseable.
Waste Not could also be a direction with which to go as maybe a 2-of. Could be a good finisher/draw engine to supplement AV.
If I were going mono-b, Dark Ritual would be a lot more appealing, though with 2 colors it's less so.
It could possibly need 1 more land, though you're right in assuming that's something I'd have to learn through playing the deck. With only 3 4cmc spells though, I'm comfortable starting with 21 and going from there.
Vortex really only got thrown into the mix for 2 reasons: I have 2 sitting around and it'll supplement as another 'rack' type effect of guaranteed damage every turn and I have a GW deck based around Ajani with quite a bit of random lifegain that would likely blow this deck out of the water. It is pretty much the first card on the block when and if I need to make cuts though.
The more I think about it though, the more I'm really liking Waste Not. Each of it's options could really help this deck progress the plan of killing my opponent by either giving me creatures to beat face/protect myself, ramping me into multiple spells a turn quicker than my opponent or drawing me into additional Rack effects or discard spells. However, it does have a sliding scale of effectiveness. It's much better to drop T2 than it is T5. For that reason I believe I'll need 4. Perhaps a 4/2 split with Asylum Visitor(AV being 2) would be the most effective course.
I will admit I've never used Waste Not before and it does fall into the trap of needing discard for it to do anything. Plus, I have to take a turn off to cast something that has no immediate effect. Does anyone have experience with this card and, if so, is it worth the loss of tempo?
(Edit- I've been reading a lot of discussion about the card and it pretty much mirrors what my thoughts are as far as it being a sliding scale of effectiveness. On top of that, it being a terrible top deck. Many people only recommend 2 but I feel you really need it T2-T3 to make any use of it. Maybe a 3/3 split instead.(Edit 2: Master of the Feast could help mitigate one of Waste Not's flaws in being useless once opponent is in top-deck mode. Though it's slightly counter intuitive if I don't have discard spells continuously.))
Through a lot of deliberation and theory crafting, this is what I decided on going with. Even still, this list isn't set in stone. I can pull the Masters for 2 more Visitors or 1 Visitor and 1 Land or even if I feel I need to add something else to the deck..
Thank you all for your suggestions! Even if I didn't go your proposed route, know that I took every suggestion seriously and applied it into a list before I decided to dismiss it or not. The process got and kept the wheels spinning so I could brew this.
Any further questions, comments or concerns are greatly appreciated as well.
I did consider him, actually, since he fits in decks like these. However, it doesn't really fit the game plan I'm trying to go with and with no evasion he can just be chump blocked to oblivion. Master, while costing 1 more does fit my plan while also being an evasive beater that can close games on his own and doesn't care if someone's hand is empty.
I chose most of my cards by if they fit the game plan I'm going for:
1) Will it empty their hand to turn on my racks.
2) Will it protect me until I can win.
3) Will it speed up the game time and allow me to win quicker.
Prototype, while being a potential 2/3 seems like it would be a shoe in but only in a vacuum so I passed. Other than that, it doesn't have further synergy with the rest of the deck. In contrast, Master is a 2/3 while also having synergy with Waste Not to always keep my discard spells turned on.
All true.
How's Desecration Demon tickle you?
other sideboard cards, Pick the Brain and toxic Deluge
I also like sign in blood for this style deck. Either you can cast it targeting yourself or your opponent. The look on your opponent's face when you sign them, then Hymn them is worth it every time.:laugh2:
I don't think Demon is really needed, I've got bolts and terminates to handle threats that get through my discard, along with various creatures and tokens to chump whatever I couldn't catch.
I do like Deluge and may have to consider it depending on playtesting, I don't use SB so it would have to come at expense of something else.
I was initially looking at SiB knowing I would need some CA, until I settled on AV and Waste. I have done that play in a megrim deck though, it is funny.
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4 Thrull Surgeon
4 Leaden Myr
2 Iron Myr
2 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
2 Hypnotic Specter
2 Royal Assassin
3 Lavaborn Muse
2 Lightning Reaver
2 Hollowborn Barghest
2 Liliana's Caress
2 Terminate
4 Blightning
2 Pain Magnification
2 Rekindled Flame
2 Larceny
9 Mountain
8 Swamp
2 Graven Cairns
2 Rakdos Carnarium
2 Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace
4 Augur of Skulls
1 Asylum Visitor
2 Master of the Feast
3 Lavaborn Muse
(29) Non-Creature Spells
4 The Rack
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Terminate
3 Waste Not
4 Raven's Crime
2 Blackmail
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Blightning
4 Dragonskull Summit
2 Graven Cairns
2 Geier Reach Sanitarium
2 Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace
1 Dakmor Salvage
5 Swamp
5 Mountain
Through a lot of deliberation and theory crafting, this is what I decided on going with. Even still, this list isn't set in stone. I can pull the Masters for 2 more Visitors or 1 Visitor and 1 Land or even if I feel I need to add something else to the deck.. The Masters and the Sanitarium are my ways to mitigate Waste Nots weakness in the late game while Master also works as another win-con.
But you have a bunch of do-nothing cards, that need others to achieve something, that most likely will only be mediocre even if it works out. Those cards are Larceny, Pain Magnification, and Liliana's Caress. Megrim decks have never worked out well for anyone I know that tried to build one, including myself, it's just not a very good strategy. I'd cut all of those entirely.
Rekindled Flame is nice tech in a discard deck, both wincon and removal. You want as many as possible. I'd also run a full playset of Terminate, and that should be enough removal for the deck. Royal Assassin is slow and small, and may not find a legal target. Still, it's repeatable removal, but I think, you can use the slot better.
Those are my thoughts based on what is currently in the deck. There are lots of suitable cards out there, that may find a home in your deck. But we need to know your budget for getting new cards, as well as any format restrictions to better help you out. The deck is salvagable, but has to be more streamlined and focussed.
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I was thinking about going towards an 8rack style deck; but IoK and Thoughtsieze doesn't come cheep. There is no specific format as I really only play casually. Budget, maybe $100 would probably be the most I want to spend on upgrades.
Next you have caress and megrim, so that is fine. The goal is going to be wheeling them out, so those effectively resolve the win conditions for you.
Then there is elements to keep you alive. For this deck I would suggest keeping it simple: Glacial Chasm, Duress, and some spot removal.
Add in dark ritual to get out your megrims and caresses early, with discard backup and you should be able to kill opponents quickly and reliably.
UB Wight Phantasm
RB Burn
UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
Legacy:
R Burn
CG-Post
It would probably be better to go the 8rack route with some burn thrown in.
4 Asylum Visitor
3 Lavaborn Muse
4 The Rack
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Terminate
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Raven's Crime
2 Blackmail
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Blightning
Maybe something like this? AV to give me some much needed draw power. Vortex to speed to the end and counter incidental lifegain. Auger just being an upgrade for the Thrull. Dropped flames to lower curve and added bolts. 18 discard sources with 4 being reuseable.
Waste Not could also be a direction with which to go as maybe a 2-of. Could be a good finisher/draw engine to supplement AV.
Any thoughts to if that would play decently?
It could possibly need 1 more land, though you're right in assuming that's something I'd have to learn through playing the deck. With only 3 4cmc spells though, I'm comfortable starting with 21 and going from there.
Vortex really only got thrown into the mix for 2 reasons: I have 2 sitting around and it'll supplement as another 'rack' type effect of guaranteed damage every turn and I have a GW deck based around Ajani with quite a bit of random lifegain that would likely blow this deck out of the water. It is pretty much the first card on the block when and if I need to make cuts though.
The more I think about it though, the more I'm really liking Waste Not. Each of it's options could really help this deck progress the plan of killing my opponent by either giving me creatures to beat face/protect myself, ramping me into multiple spells a turn quicker than my opponent or drawing me into additional Rack effects or discard spells. However, it does have a sliding scale of effectiveness. It's much better to drop T2 than it is T5. For that reason I believe I'll need 4. Perhaps a 4/2 split with Asylum Visitor(AV being 2) would be the most effective course.
I will admit I've never used Waste Not before and it does fall into the trap of needing discard for it to do anything. Plus, I have to take a turn off to cast something that has no immediate effect. Does anyone have experience with this card and, if so, is it worth the loss of tempo?
(Edit- I've been reading a lot of discussion about the card and it pretty much mirrors what my thoughts are as far as it being a sliding scale of effectiveness. On top of that, it being a terrible top deck. Many people only recommend 2 but I feel you really need it T2-T3 to make any use of it. Maybe a 3/3 split instead.(Edit 2: Master of the Feast could help mitigate one of Waste Not's flaws in being useless once opponent is in top-deck mode. Though it's slightly counter intuitive if I don't have discard spells continuously.))
4 Augur of Skulls
1 Asylum Visitor
2 Master of the Feast
3 Lavaborn Muse
(29) Non-Creature Spells
4 The Rack
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Terminate
3 Waste Not
4 Raven's Crime
2 Blackmail
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Blightning
4 Dragonskull Summit
2 Graven Cairns
2 Geier Reach Sanitarium
2 Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace
1 Dakmor Salvage
5 Swamp
5 Mountain
Through a lot of deliberation and theory crafting, this is what I decided on going with. Even still, this list isn't set in stone. I can pull the Masters for 2 more Visitors or 1 Visitor and 1 Land or even if I feel I need to add something else to the deck..
Thank you all for your suggestions! Even if I didn't go your proposed route, know that I took every suggestion seriously and applied it into a list before I decided to dismiss it or not. The process got and kept the wheels spinning so I could brew this.
Any further questions, comments or concerns are greatly appreciated as well.
I chose most of my cards by if they fit the game plan I'm going for:
1) Will it empty their hand to turn on my racks.
2) Will it protect me until I can win.
3) Will it speed up the game time and allow me to win quicker.
Prototype, while being a potential 2/3 seems like it would be a shoe in but only in a vacuum so I passed. Other than that, it doesn't have further synergy with the rest of the deck. In contrast, Master is a 2/3 while also having synergy with Waste Not to always keep my discard spells turned on.
How's Desecration Demon tickle you?
other sideboard cards, Pick the Brain and toxic Deluge
I also like sign in blood for this style deck. Either you can cast it targeting yourself or your opponent. The look on your opponent's face when you sign them, then Hymn them is worth it every time.:laugh2:
I do like Deluge and may have to consider it depending on playtesting, I don't use SB so it would have to come at expense of something else.
I was initially looking at SiB knowing I would need some CA, until I settled on AV and Waste. I have done that play in a megrim deck though, it is funny.