PooisPoois: indeed, Desert is alot better than Balduvian Trading Post. BTP costs 3 mana for 1 damage (R to pay the cost, and not generating the mana from BTP by itself). On the other hand, Desert deals 1 damage and generates a generic mana. Conclusion, Desert wwwaaayyy better, the only problem is, i can't afford it right now. I thinking the idea of not mdecking BTP, almost never became useful.
About splashing blue, i don't think this deck needs it. Just for a card like Minotaur Illusionist, whose is alot more defensive than offensive, besides, Electrolyze is not that good once you have cards like Lightning Bolt, with a lower cost for improved damage. For 5, i rather cast Talruum Champion. About Karplusan Minotaur, its too random, can change tides on or off me.
Mantle Denizen: our decks are almost the same (minor changes always happen). Take a look:
But, i'm still considering Talruum Champion, Anaba Bodyguard or Zerapa Minotaur on the place of Haste minotaurs (casting by Didgeridoo, haste has no relevance for the deck. Haste works better with Onslaught, and through Didgeridoo, all minotaurs cost 3), since first strike, O-Naginata, Spirit Crafter and Ancestor is a cool friendship (com'on big guys).
O-Naginata drawback was never a problem after some tests, since i never want to equip and attack with Anaba Ancestor on 3rd turn, but improve others casted by Didgeridoo, usually blocking. And Anaba Spirit Crafter always get on 3 power since its ability target itself either, and usually nobody cares about killing Ancestor.
On lands, i dropped all stuff, and i'm running only Mountains, 22 of them.
The option on Lightning Greaves/Onslaught is cool as well, but not as competitive as didgeridoo/damage (this spot is still open, i'm testing Spitting Earth, a very good finishers killer (it's at least 2 damage), also considering Incinerate, since i'm facing some Zombie decks).
If you were to add 4 common Great Furnace, the uncommon gem Shrapnel Blast becomes a solid 5 damage game ender able to smack your opponent for 5, something Spitting Earth can't do. Just a thought however. I think WotC really needs to revisit a couple of interesting red creature types and give us some good Minotaurs and Dwarves. Is it too much to ask? Plus I think the hasted Minotaurs are your best bet for now at least, just my opinon though.
I think WotC really needs to revisit a couple of interesting red creature types and give us some good Minotaurs and Dwarves. Is it too much to ask?
Matt Cavotta made a long explaination here about why Dwarves (and probably Minotaurs by extension) don't get reprinted. Basically, they don't fit red's flavor well enough.
Chaos plays way too much into the current red slice of the color wheel, imo. It seems like you have to be tiny and psychotic and/or firey to be a red creature nowadays.
I don't necessarily agree with Cavotta's assumption. Dwarves are covetous, greedy ( think of Brand and the like ), warlike and stubborn. They are red and belong in the game. As for Minotaurs, why not. They are proud warriors that scream red. Cool article though, and thanks for the link.
OFF TOPIC: Agree with Mantle, Dwarves are greedy artificers, fearless in battle. Maybe what Cavotta mean is, they are honored people, not completly chaotic, therefore not completly RED, but still red.
Minotaurs are COMPLETLY RED, the legend says about a god-creature, whose fulfill his hunger with people. Completly chaotic, leanning upon destruction, totally ferocious, totally unstopable, totally RED.
I think Wizard should let the Sun shine for these creatures. You know, make something different than: I'll spread X creatures on the Block, so my pick is Y.
It occurs to me that Spellshock is a nice way to punish those other players who foolishly cast spells instead of just playing their magic flute.
Spellshock is a cool card, the only problem is that it doesn't help the deck. Despite the 2 damage, you may have to face bigger threats by 4th turn like Rumbling Slum, or a third turn Burning-Tree Shaman, so the damage i'll recieve using BTS will not compensate the 2 i give, since this creature will give me more trouble than the 2 damage i gave to foe.
My real question is, what cards should be placed on side, for my match ups, i developed a possible sideboard:
Mantle Denizen: i'm not running Shrapnel Blast since it seems not be need by now. Spitting Earth do the damage for the size of threats i have, usually in 2nd turn there are 2/2 drops at, SE gives 2 damage, by third 3/3, SE gives 3.
And since i used SE, that means that in their turn, foe used its mana to cast a creature, so i used mine to remove it, letting the situation as previous. If i was in creature advantaged before, i'm again now, not needing direct damage. If they destroy my creature with their mana, i cast another, and don't use SE. So there is no need of destroying a Great Furnace, O-Naginata or Didgeridoo to do 5 damage.
So dudes, how should be the side?
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"Now i lay you, down to rest, you'll never be more than second best" (Megadeth)
Further to the earlier posts about splashing blue, there's one Minotaur which I don't think has been mentioned yet: Mistform Ultimus. Could be fun as a one-of?
EDIT: Oh, and of course Proteus Machine, though that's only a Minotaur in play...
Pyroclasm is a stable SB card in that most of your creatures are 3 toughness. How about the control matchup? Maybe some landkill like Cryoclasm or Molten Rain to slow down the control lock and still do some precious damage. Spitting Earth has been around since Mirage and it never really caught on because: 1) it's a sorcery 2) it's a mid to late game burn ( probably should have at least 3-4 mtn.s down to be effective ) 3) can only target a creature. What if you wanted to deal that last bit of damage, it's a tight game, in topdeck mode, and you draw Spitting Earth. Wouldn't you want to draw Shrapnel Blast. It's great for the same reasons Fireblast is but with less of a drawback. Even if you don't want to use or hunt them down ( purchase ) 4 md Incinerate is better than SE imho.
I think Spitting Earth is more fit to early game than Shrapnel Blast or Fireblast. Which of these 3 cards, would you like to cast by 2nd turn. (of course Spitting Earth is only cool in Mono-Red decks with low number of non-basic lands, if you run more colors or too much non-basic lands, don't use it. Maybe that's the reason why people didn't used this card)
2nd turn:
you: mana, and:
sharpnel (good bye didgeridoo or Great Furnace)
Fireblast (good bye my mana base, back to 0 mana)
Spitting Earth (2 damage)
There is no big deal about being an instant. If you saved your mana for instant, you didn't cast a creature or artifact, so you'll have to spend that mana on a instant spell or you'll just have lost a whole turn. Of course you can choose by third turn cast a creature by didgeridoo, but if you choose for Shrapnel, you'll have to destroy your didgeridoo or your mana base, so you'll have to loose another turn to fix things again.
See, in all these options, or you wreck your mana base, or take out a great card like Didgeridoo (make all your minotaur be cast by 3rd turn), just to remove a creature.
I really think Shrapnel Blast and Fireblast really slows down the deck with no need of it. Incinerate is a cool option, but only on second turn (despite, just few creatures have 3 thoughness by turn 2), by third, they are even, by forth and on, i rather Spitting Earth. Incinerate is a better card for specific match up against regeneration guys.
That's why i rather go with Spitting Earth than other options.
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"Now i lay you, down to rest, you'll never be more than second best" (Megadeth)
Fireblast should be the last spell you play. It's used to squeeze in the last few points of damage and win the game (by sacrificing Mountains). There is no reason to play it before the turn the game ends, since it costs no mana and the opponent will be losing that life anyway if you win.
mdmunoz: Got it, but disagree. It not even kill Rumbling Slum, Bogardan Hellkite, for the price of 2 mountains....suggesting to hold the card in hand for a spefic situation where the game is almost won, to cast it, makes no sense for me. In that situation where there was 4 life point to win, i'll probably win.
Let's get back to the deck. It's a Minotaur deck. Minotaurs are not that big creatures, even later game. Of course a Tahngarth, Talruum Hero with a O-Naginata can do 7 damage without tapping, but what if i doesn't have a O-Naginata in play to deal with creatures like Rumbling Slum? I need some spell to kill it. Even with char this will cost 1 creature and 1 spell.
With red, i don't have access to removal spells, just damage spells, and the cost for a card like Fireblast is too high, this wreck my mana base, makes me loose the game (there is no time for come back). And holding a card for a future specific situation is not the answer, i want the answer by that time, a card that solve my problems when they appear to me; makes my deck faster. With Spitting Earth, i can take down a Rumbling Slum in my fifth turn and even cast a minotaur by Didgeridoo (and you can't do it with Fireblast, not even with it's drawback.)
I really can't see the reason for this card. Maybe in a deck with: 4 Lightning Bolts, 4 Firebolt, 4 Incinerate, 4 Fireball....4 Fireblast, than by 4th turn, you can destroy 4 lands and finish the game (if you're lucky to have 2 Fireblast in hand).
I'm still not leaned upon it. but that's ok, i doubt you'll make up my mind.
Tdawgg2: I considered Incinerate, and it's in my side, for regeneration match ups. See the reason not to md it (all have 2 on cost, so i'll go directly on 2 turn).
2nd: Incinerate 3 damage, Spitting Earth 2 damage (advantage to Incinerate)
3rd: Incinerate 3 damage, SE 3 damage (even)
4th and on: Incinerate 3 damage, SE 4 and on (advantage to Spitting Earth)
The big question for me now is Sirocco or Red Elemental Blast (Instant is always in Blue decks, but sometimes i face enchants that kills me like Propaganda, what to choose?)
I'm still not leaned upon it. but that's ok, i doubt you'll make up my mind.
The big question for me now is Sirocco or Red Elemental Blast (Instant is always in Blue decks, but sometimes i face enchants that kills me like Propaganda, what to choose?)
For 22 even 23 lands, you are counting on some serious fortune to get 5 straight land drops to kill Slum with Spitting Earth. Face the reality that Incinerate is twice the card SE is and remember that the best cards make decks that much better.
Red Elemental Blast can counter their instants and is the better choice for it's utility.
For 22 even 23 lands, you are counting on some serious fortune to get 5 straight land drops to kill Slum with Spitting Earth. Face the reality that Incinerate is twice the card SE is and remember that the best cards make decks that much better.
Red Elemental Blast can counter their instants and is the better choice for it's utility.
Why, why is it twice better than SE?
I'm playtesting this deck a good time by now, and i NEVER faced a situation where i expected to have Incinerate and not Spitting Earth on hand (just expected when i faced a strong zombie deck of my friend, but that was an specific match up, that's why this card is on sideboard).
Lightning Bolt cover most of times these FEW threats of second turn with 3 toughness like Watchwolf. So most of times, Spitting Earth do a better job later game.
About land drops, the chances of land drops for Spitting Earth is equal to the chance of land drops for Rumbling Slum (Spitting Earth a little lower since i don't need two color types).
The only reasonable answer for superiority of Incinerate is the direct damage, which is not a strong argument since there were bigger threats that do alot more damage than Incinerate that stays in play.
So please, tell me why, when, how (example please) Incinerate is the best, far, beyond, way better card than the one i'm playing?
(Mantle, I'm not questioning your quality for making card choices, surely you have a reason to say what you saying, i just wanna know, be convinced that your choice is better, just to change mine - i can even take some tip for usage in some situations )
PS: You're right, by now Red Elemental Blast looks a better choice to me, most of times i cast Sirocco, they discarded 2-3 cards with no damage, and recovered later. And later game, Sirocco loose focus, since the foe runs little amount of cards on hand.
Thanks
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"Now i lay you, down to rest, you'll never be more than second best" (Megadeth)
It is a good card, but if the opponent must die now, it's much more likely that you will have two mountains in play as opposed to another red card in hand.
If you topdeck it, for example (Fireblast is notorious for this).
I've tested the cards, and really the best one was Shrapnel Blast, the most used card for it's cost was O-Naginata, with no problem at all. I boarded in 4 of.
Shrapnel Blast is a damn good card and in the right deck, ( like yours ) a better alternative to Fireblast IMO. Try to run 4 Great Furnace instead of four mountains. You shouldn't sac lands as a rule of thumb, however you may just need that option and it contributes to your overall artifact count. I'd only advise against the furnace if your opponent is playing a lot of Disenchant like cards. Hows about an updated decklist please :).
Hi Mantle, you were right, Shrapnel Blast is indeed a damn good card, alot better for it's reliability (as you said in a post early, not ever i get 5 land in play in time to deal with some REAL problems with Spitting Earth). Also, i've added 4 Great Furnace to MD, surely against LD decks with some artifact destruction spells, it's gg. But just artifact destruction (as Disenchant) is not a real deal, since most of times i can recover from that, and they have a worst target that is Didgeridoo.
Yeah that's pretty much as good as you can make a minotaur deck, looks tight. Perhaps 1 copy of Sol Ring could be added, I just don't know what you would replace though. Good luck with the deck.
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4 Anaba Spirit Crafter
4 Talruum Minotaur
4 Raging Minotaur
4 Minotaur Explorer
2 Tahngarth, Minotaur Champion
2 Bonespitter
4 Didgeridoo
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Shrapnel Blast
2 Balduvian Trading Post
1 Barbarian Ring
PooisPoois: indeed, Desert is alot better than Balduvian Trading Post. BTP costs 3 mana for 1 damage (R to pay the cost, and not generating the mana from BTP by itself). On the other hand, Desert deals 1 damage and generates a generic mana. Conclusion, Desert wwwaaayyy better, the only problem is, i can't afford it right now. I thinking the idea of not mdecking BTP, almost never became useful.
About splashing blue, i don't think this deck needs it. Just for a card like Minotaur Illusionist, whose is alot more defensive than offensive, besides, Electrolyze is not that good once you have cards like Lightning Bolt, with a lower cost for improved damage. For 5, i rather cast Talruum Champion. About Karplusan Minotaur, its too random, can change tides on or off me.
Mantle Denizen: our decks are almost the same (minor changes always happen). Take a look:
22 Mountain
CREATURES (22)
4 Anaba Ancestor
4 Minotaur Explorer
4 Talruum Minotaur
4 Raging Minotaur
4 Anaba Spirit Crafter
2 Tahngarth, Talruum Hero
4 Didgeridoo
4 O-Naginata
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spitting Earth
But, i'm still considering Talruum Champion, Anaba Bodyguard or Zerapa Minotaur on the place of Haste minotaurs (casting by Didgeridoo, haste has no relevance for the deck. Haste works better with Onslaught, and through Didgeridoo, all minotaurs cost 3), since first strike, O-Naginata, Spirit Crafter and Ancestor is a cool friendship (com'on big guys).
O-Naginata drawback was never a problem after some tests, since i never want to equip and attack with Anaba Ancestor on 3rd turn, but improve others casted by Didgeridoo, usually blocking. And Anaba Spirit Crafter always get on 3 power since its ability target itself either, and usually nobody cares about killing Ancestor.
On lands, i dropped all stuff, and i'm running only Mountains, 22 of them.
The option on Lightning Greaves/Onslaught is cool as well, but not as competitive as didgeridoo/damage (this spot is still open, i'm testing Spitting Earth, a very good finishers killer (it's at least 2 damage), also considering Incinerate, since i'm facing some Zombie decks).
Now, what to place on side?
Still thinking about:
Blue Control: Red Elemental Blast x Sirocco
Winnie: Pyroclasm x Aether Flash
Aggro/Artifacts/Enchantments: Nevinyrral's Disk (very risky, usually i take longer to recover than the foe, since with 5 mana, i can cast a 4/4 Tahngarth, if i have it in my hands, and he can cast bigger threats) x Shatter.
Aggro only : Coat of Arms x Spitting Earth
Regeneration: Incinerate (to take care of creatures like Twisted Abomination) x (other options?)
What more to care about, which cards should be inside? What card to take in the place of Spitting Earth, or is it cool there?
Thanks for all support by now.
Chaos plays way too much into the current red slice of the color wheel, imo. It seems like you have to be tiny and psychotic and/or firey to be a red creature nowadays.
Minotaurs are COMPLETLY RED, the legend says about a god-creature, whose fulfill his hunger with people. Completly chaotic, leanning upon destruction, totally ferocious, totally unstopable, totally RED.
I think Wizard should let the Sun shine for these creatures. You know, make something different than: I'll spread X creatures on the Block, so my pick is Y.
If:
(X=Green, Y=Elf)
(X=Red, Y=Goblin)
(X=Blue , Y=Wizard)
(X=White , Y=Angel/Cleric)
(X=Black , Y=Zombie).
The only colors that differs more are White and Black.
They should do another Block like Onslaught, but now based on:
(Artifact/Direct Damage) Dwarves
(Aggro/Rampage) Minotaurs
(Landwalkers/Tap Damage) Merfolks
(Cantrip/Untap) Sprites/Faeries
(Regeneration/Control Creature) Vampire/Werewolfs
(Token/Drain Life) Bats
(Mana/Tap Creature) Druids
(Trampling/Poisoning) Snakes/Cobras
(Lifelink/Evasiveness) Birds
(First Strike/Banding) Soldiers
That'd be nice, and would give a completly twist on new strong, competitive tribal decks to play. Besides it'd be alot fun.
What do you think?
ON TOPIC:
How about the sideboard? What do i choose?
Spellshock is a cool card, the only problem is that it doesn't help the deck. Despite the 2 damage, you may have to face bigger threats by 4th turn like Rumbling Slum, or a third turn Burning-Tree Shaman, so the damage i'll recieve using BTS will not compensate the 2 i give, since this creature will give me more trouble than the 2 damage i gave to foe.
My real question is, what cards should be placed on side, for my match ups, i developed a possible sideboard:
Blue Control: Red Elemental Blast or Sirocco (going for Sirocoo by now)
Winnie: Pyroclasm or Aether Flash (going for Pyroclasm)
Enchants/Artifacts: Nevinyrral's Disk (didn't find another better option)
Aggro: Coat of Arms x Spitting Earth x Sharpnel Blast (going for SE)
Regeneration: Incinerate (for cards like Twisted Abomination), didn't find any other better option.
Mantle Denizen: i'm not running Shrapnel Blast since it seems not be need by now. Spitting Earth do the damage for the size of threats i have, usually in 2nd turn there are 2/2 drops at, SE gives 2 damage, by third 3/3, SE gives 3.
And since i used SE, that means that in their turn, foe used its mana to cast a creature, so i used mine to remove it, letting the situation as previous. If i was in creature advantaged before, i'm again now, not needing direct damage. If they destroy my creature with their mana, i cast another, and don't use SE. So there is no need of destroying a Great Furnace, O-Naginata or Didgeridoo to do 5 damage.
So dudes, how should be the side?
EDIT: Oh, and of course Proteus Machine, though that's only a Minotaur in play...
Thanks anyway.
Example, if cast by:
1st turn
you:mana, Didgeridoo
him:mana, 1/1 creature
2nd turn:
you: mana, and:
sharpnel (good bye didgeridoo or Great Furnace)
Fireblast (good bye my mana base, back to 0 mana)
Spitting Earth (2 damage)
There is no big deal about being an instant. If you saved your mana for instant, you didn't cast a creature or artifact, so you'll have to spend that mana on a instant spell or you'll just have lost a whole turn. Of course you can choose by third turn cast a creature by didgeridoo, but if you choose for Shrapnel, you'll have to destroy your didgeridoo or your mana base, so you'll have to loose another turn to fix things again.
See, in all these options, or you wreck your mana base, or take out a great card like Didgeridoo (make all your minotaur be cast by 3rd turn), just to remove a creature.
I really think Shrapnel Blast and Fireblast really slows down the deck with no need of it. Incinerate is a cool option, but only on second turn (despite, just few creatures have 3 thoughness by turn 2), by third, they are even, by forth and on, i rather Spitting Earth. Incinerate is a better card for specific match up against regeneration guys.
That's why i rather go with Spitting Earth than other options.
I think there is better removal than Spitting earth tho. Have you considered Incinerate?
I rather Char than Fireblast.
Let's get back to the deck. It's a Minotaur deck. Minotaurs are not that big creatures, even later game. Of course a Tahngarth, Talruum Hero with a O-Naginata can do 7 damage without tapping, but what if i doesn't have a O-Naginata in play to deal with creatures like Rumbling Slum? I need some spell to kill it. Even with char this will cost 1 creature and 1 spell.
With red, i don't have access to removal spells, just damage spells, and the cost for a card like Fireblast is too high, this wreck my mana base, makes me loose the game (there is no time for come back). And holding a card for a future specific situation is not the answer, i want the answer by that time, a card that solve my problems when they appear to me; makes my deck faster. With Spitting Earth, i can take down a Rumbling Slum in my fifth turn and even cast a minotaur by Didgeridoo (and you can't do it with Fireblast, not even with it's drawback.)
I really can't see the reason for this card. Maybe in a deck with: 4 Lightning Bolts, 4 Firebolt, 4 Incinerate, 4 Fireball....4 Fireblast, than by 4th turn, you can destroy 4 lands and finish the game (if you're lucky to have 2 Fireblast in hand).
I'm still not leaned upon it. but that's ok, i doubt you'll make up my mind.
Tdawgg2: I considered Incinerate, and it's in my side, for regeneration match ups. See the reason not to md it (all have 2 on cost, so i'll go directly on 2 turn).
2nd: Incinerate 3 damage, Spitting Earth 2 damage (advantage to Incinerate)
3rd: Incinerate 3 damage, SE 3 damage (even)
4th and on: Incinerate 3 damage, SE 4 and on (advantage to Spitting Earth)
The big question for me now is Sirocco or Red Elemental Blast (Instant is always in Blue decks, but sometimes i face enchants that kills me like Propaganda, what to choose?)
Thanks for all support guys.
For 22 even 23 lands, you are counting on some serious fortune to get 5 straight land drops to kill Slum with Spitting Earth. Face the reality that Incinerate is twice the card SE is and remember that the best cards make decks that much better.
Red Elemental Blast can counter their instants and is the better choice for it's utility.
Why, why is it twice better than SE?
I'm playtesting this deck a good time by now, and i NEVER faced a situation where i expected to have Incinerate and not Spitting Earth on hand (just expected when i faced a strong zombie deck of my friend, but that was an specific match up, that's why this card is on sideboard).
Lightning Bolt cover most of times these FEW threats of second turn with 3 toughness like Watchwolf. So most of times, Spitting Earth do a better job later game.
About land drops, the chances of land drops for Spitting Earth is equal to the chance of land drops for Rumbling Slum (Spitting Earth a little lower since i don't need two color types).
The only reasonable answer for superiority of Incinerate is the direct damage, which is not a strong argument since there were bigger threats that do alot more damage than Incinerate that stays in play.
So please, tell me why, when, how (example please) Incinerate is the best, far, beyond, way better card than the one i'm playing?
(Mantle, I'm not questioning your quality for making card choices, surely you have a reason to say what you saying, i just wanna know, be convinced that your choice is better, just to change mine - i can even take some tip for usage in some situations )
PS: You're right, by now Red Elemental Blast looks a better choice to me, most of times i cast Sirocco, they discarded 2-3 cards with no damage, and recovered later. And later game, Sirocco loose focus, since the foe runs little amount of cards on hand.
Thanks
Found an option for Shrapnel Blast and Fireblast.....Pyrokinesis.
What you guys think?
If you topdeck it, for example (Fireblast is notorious for this).
I've tested the cards, and really the best one was Shrapnel Blast, the most used card for it's cost was O-Naginata, with no problem at all. I boarded in 4 of.
My side is that way now:
4 Pyroclasm (winnie/tokens)
4 Red Elemental Blast (blue control)
4 Incinerate (regeneration dudes)
3 Nevinyrral's Disk (artifacts/enchantments/reset button).
Should i change anything? Anything else to watch out?
Thanks
Updated Deck:
04 Great Furnace
04 Sandstone Needle
14 Mountain
CREATURES (22)
4 Anaba Ancestor
4 Minotaur Explorer
4 Zerapa Minotaur
4 Anaba Spirit Crafter
4 Talruum Champion
2 Tahngarth, Talruum Hero
4 Didgeridoo
4 O-Naginata
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Shrapnel Blast
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyroclasm
4 Incinerate
3 Nevinyrral's Disk