Edit: Haven't updated this page for the third set. See the last few pages.
This is my pick for best UW-based deck. The reason this is better than UW, Esper, or UWR control is simple: Prime Speaker Zegana. You now have 6-8 Sphinx's Revelations. Here's the best part... you can bring her back from the dead with Angel of Serenity. There is just NO WAY that any other control deck can beat that card advantage.
To give the speaker a boost, I play Deathbridge goliath. He is reasonably difficult to kill and provides virtual card advantage with his scavenge ability. Playing french-vanilla creatures like this make us vulnerable to removal. Enter Simic Keyrune: this is our SECOND way to trump the other control decks. If they don't have Merciless Eviction, they will lose to your 7/8 mutant keyrune. I really cannot stress how good this is. It's a near-unbeatable endgame.
Rakdos' return is still a legitimate threat, which is why the sideboard carries the full 4 copies of Loxodon Smiter. Discarding smiter and Deathbridge Goliath to return puts a 9/9 haste on the board for 6 mana. Frequently it's enough to get there. Smiter comes in against aggro decks. Bant control basically becomes bant midrange - your 4/4's and 5/5's are more than enough to hold back the 3/2's and 3/3's.
I've been testing and this list, card for card, and it has proven extremely powerful and resilient. The keyrune-Scavenge plan works, as does the midrange sideboard plan. I'm currently 7-3 in the 2-man room. This deck is the real deal.
Against UW-based control decks, bring in the countermagic for Azorius Charm and 1 Deathbridge goliath. Selesnya charm hits the ghost council and angel, the two most popular threats at the moment. If you are worried about being milled out (I'm not sure if this is a thing yet), then board in Worldspine wurm (It gives you an extra turn, at least...).
Against Golgari, Boros, and Selesnya Aggro, exchange 2 sphinx's revelation, 2 Prime Speaker Zegana, 1 Jace, 2 Angel of Serenity, and 3 Simic Keyrune for Loxodon Smiter, Dryad Militant, and Supreme Verdict. The goal here is to lower your curve and beat them in the long game. You're a midrange deck now, not a control deck. Dryad militants are particularly good against Deathrite Shaman, because they turn off his burn ability.
Against Rakdos Aggro, your plan is a little different. This deck has a lot of removal, so you actually want the keyrunes in. Bring in the loxodon, the dryad, verdict, and syncopate. Take out all the big guys except armada wurm, 1 sphinx's revelation, and 3 Jace. This is the toughest matchup that I've tested against so far. Another sideboard plan may be better. Simic Charm may be worth considering here for both protecting your creatures and the bounce ability.
Against Jund, bring in Mystic Genesis and Loxodon Smiter for 3 Azorius Charm and 2 Lyev Skynight. Try to set up a scavenge onto Simic Keyrune with mana open to give it hexproof. If you successfully do this, they have no way to beat it. Keep your mana up for hexproof!
This (or something similar) is my pick for best block deck from RTR. It has answers to everything. A large chunk (31 cards) are dedicated to mana to make sure that it can resolve Armada Wurm and Angel of serenity. If this deck needs anything, it's more card selection, since mana or 6-drop heavy hands are certainly possible. The deck may be leaning on supreme verdict a little too much to get to the late game. If that is the case, it may be necessary to cut a few of the 6 and 7 drops for Azorius charm or other early removal.
Some facts of magic:
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
Here's what I don't understand about this deck.
How do you handle anything outside of aggro?
The entire deck seems built around fending off lots of creatures.
Abrupt decay / mizzium mortars / dreadbore takes care of loxodon smiter, and then if your wincons get discarded (rakdos return) or countered (syncopate, cancel, counterflux), it seems like you won't be able to do anything else.
It seems to me like this deck has no way of winning against a control matchup. It also has no reach without jayce; once the hand is spent you're going to be topdecking.
In addition, with the gatekeepers, I really think you can tone down the lands to at least 24, if not 23. I feel in this current implementation you would be likely to get mana-flooded and then be in topdeck-mode with one win condition in your hand.
Here's what I don't understand about this deck.
How do you handle anything outside of aggro?
The entire deck seems built around fending off lots of creatures.
You're right. This deck is mostly configured to deal with Aggro and midrange decks. I suppose that's what the sideboard is for. Syncopate will be particularly good because I suspect I'll have more lands in play than my opponents.
Abrupt decay / mizzium mortars / dreadbore takes care of loxodon smiter, and then if your wincons get discarded (rakdos return) or countered (syncopate, cancel, counterflux), it seems like you won't be able to do anything else. It seems to me like this deck has no way of winning against a control matchup. It also has no reach without jayce; once the hand is spent you're going to be topdecking.
I see what you're getting at, but isn't that true of any deck? Abrupt decay / Mortars / dreadbore kills early things, and rakdos return and counterspells can handle late things? I'm not seeing how this is different than a "dies to removal" argument. I think I have a significant number of hard-to-deal with threats. If I resolve an armada wurm, your hypothetical grixis control deck is going to have a real headache. I know there are answers to it, but hopefully you see my point.
There are no other sources in GUW of repeatable card advantage besides Jace.
In addition, with the gatekeepers, I really think you can tone down the lands to at least 24, if not 23. I feel in this current implementation you would be likely to get mana-flooded and then be in topdeck-mode with one win condition in your hand.
Yeah, you're right. I mentioned that in the OP. Perhaps removing some basics for 2-3 of the selesnya man-land would provide a good balance. Another possiblity is to replace some of the gatecreepers with keyrunes. A mana base like that would have a little more utility. Remember that I want to cast 6 and 7 mana spells on turns... 5 to 8. I definitely need a large number of sources to do that consistently.
Some facts of magic:
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
I see what you're getting at, but isn't that true of any deck? Abrupt decay / Mortars / dreadbore kills early things, and rakdos return and counterspells can handle late things? I'm not seeing how this is different than a "dies to removal" argument. I think I have a significant number of hard-to-deal with threats. If I resolve an armada wurm, your hypothetical grixis control deck is going to have a real headache. I know there are answers to it, but hopefully you see my point.
I guess what I mean to say is that your win seems dependent on so few cards. That might not be true in play, but that was just my first impression. I might be wrong about this though.
There are no other sources in GUW of repeatable card advantage besides Jace.
I want to combine this and your last point into a double solution, possibly.
While you have no repeatable forms of card advantage, I think there are some good options to stay in the game longer.
Sphinx's Revelation is a good card. It's not game breaking, but in the block constructed selection, it is good. I was thinking maybe a more controll-ish implementation with 4x Axebane Guardian and 4x Hover Barrier? Hover Barrier with sphinx's revelation will provide the sustain necessary to survive against aggro, which is what you're already doing with Centaur Healer and Loxodon Smiter. You wouldn't have as much mid-rangey aggression, but it seems like your win is mostly based on your end-cards anyway.
Axebane also provides some serious mana ramp. Two in a row is +2 mana on turn 4, and +4 on turn 5, and the more you get with hover barrier, the better he gets. You can even still keep gatekeeper as a two drop because now he's useful for something other than chump-blocking. Then, you just hold off until turn 4 or 5, and start churning out threats until they run out of answers. Isperia, Serenity, Armada Wurm, etc. If they stop them all, cast a Sphinx's for 7 and refill your hand. What do you think?
That is definitely a deck. I considered the axebane plan but decided against it in favor of supreme verdict. I didn't really want to rely on a bunch of early creatures and also play a sweeper. I think it's a little better suited to a 4 or 5 color ramp deck than a control deck.
Are there any inevitable threats in this format that we want to ramp into? Niv-mizzet, dracogenius? That big wurm?
We'll have to see whether Niv-mizzet or Armada wurm proves to be more game ending. The one that seals the deal better will probably decide whether control decks are bant or URW.
Sphinx's Revelation is a good option. I can definitely see playing 1 or 2 main deck, and more in the sideboard.
Some facts of magic:
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
I decided I wanted more creatures. The extra creatures help win the Jace war and are pretty effective against rakdos and other aggro decks. Also, you can just win by curving out, something that UW control can't do. Imagine a turn 2 3/3, turn 3 4/4, turn 4 5/5... that alone will beat many average draws. Even if you get wrathed, it's ok, Armada wurm brings you right back. Slaughter Games is a joke of a sideboard card. Grove of the Guardian is more playable in this build, and it's addition gives us a more efficient deck than UW control. Selesnya Charm takes out anything that tries to go bigger than us: Demon, Jarad, Angel of Serenity, other Deathbridge goliaths. It's also the reason I included Archon of the Triumvirate in the sideboard.
Judge's familiar -- It's an unusual choice. The reason I run it... it just slows everything down.
*Rakdos can't cast a threat and Mizzium mortars on turn 4 anymore.
*Rakdos Return hits for 1 less.
*Sphinx's Revelation draws 1 less card.
*Call of the Conclave is a lot worse at 3 mana
*You win counter wars. (Turn 4 Jace is not vulnerable to opponent's cancel on the play)
*Great with Deathbridge Goliath
*Blocks Rakdos shred-freak
It not look like you're doing much, but it effectively reads "Instants and sorcery spells your opponents cast cost an additional 1," and there are a lot of critical instants and sorceries in this format.
I ditched the keyrunes because the ramp wasn't as good as more creatures. People are starting to play more artifact removal as well. Abrupt Decay on my turn 3 keyrune happened a little too often.
4 Loxodon Smiter and 3 Deathbridge Goliath really go a long way to turning the ever popular Rakdos Return from a blowout to... well... a blowout in the other direction. Grove of the Guardian helps here too, just by being a threat you can get on the field early. These same cards also make Lotleth troll much less problematic.
Sideboard is always in flux. Trotsanti, selsnya's voice seems like a good sb card against rakdos. Pithing needle seems interesting against Jace, Lotleth troll, Jarad, Deathrite Shaman, keyrunes, etc. Leyev Skynight is a solid card, and could even be better than Centuar Healer main deck.
Some facts of magic:
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
Some facts of magic:
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
You present your new list saying you now have 6-8 Sphinx's Revelation but you only run 3 Sphinx's Revelation and 2 Zegana.
I know Zegana can potentially draw you more than 3 cards for 6 mana, but it's board dependant, making it a very poor top deck. I know this is not a reason to cut it, but I'd run 4 Sphinx's Revelation before adding my first Zegana into the deck. I think Urban Evolution is a safer choice over Zegana, it's one mana cheaper, always draw you 3 cards and it possibly ramps.. I imagine this situation where you have no lands in hand and cast Urban Evolution drawing 2 lands and 1 Sphinx's Revelation.. wouldn't that be awesome?
I agree about Simic Keyrune, unless you tap out, it's pretty hard to get rid of it, and it blocks 2/2 just as well as Selesnya Keyrune, without the risk of getting burned.
I think running Loxodon Smiter main can be interesting too. It's really good against control, it can force them to play a verdict early.. its only flaw is that it doesn't block Lyev. I would just throw in the loxodon instead of the deadbridge main.
I've seen list run Gyre Sage too, it can get very fat when you play Lyev, Loxodon, Wurm..
And now of course Selesnya Charm is even more useful at taking care of Obzedat.
Finally, I'd rather have a Psychic Spiral than a Worldspine Wurm in my sideboard, aside the fact that you need to cast the Spiral, it shuffles your whole graveyard into your library, it can also mill your opponent.
You present your new list saying you now have 6-8 Sphinx's Revelation but you only run 3 Sphinx's Revelation and 2 Zegana.
Haha, good point. I originally had 1 revelation in the sideboard, but I realized I did not want to take out more than 4 cards against other control decks. Dispel seemed more important.
I know Zegana can potentially draw you more than 3 cards for 6 mana, but it's board dependant, making it a very poor top deck. I know this is not a reason to cut it, but I'd run 4 Sphinx's Revelation before adding my first Zegana into the deck. I think Urban Evolution is a safer choice over Zegana, it's one mana cheaper, always draw you 3 cards and it possibly ramps.. I imagine this situation where you have no lands in hand and cast Urban Evolution drawing 2 lands and 1 Sphinx's Revelation.. wouldn't that be awesome?
I have run into problems in the past where I am "revelation flooded" against aggro decks. Zegana mitigates this problem, allowing me to draw more cards and effectively gain more life than revelation would. Zegana also combos well with Angel of Serenity; it's a revelation that you can use more than once. Finally, if an opponent casts angel exiling zegana, they're effectively giving you another revelation! The fact that she's a creature makes her extremely powerful. (She combos with selesnya charm too -- either the creature or the +2/+2 modes)
Against control decks, it is rare to be without a creature or keyrune to make Zegana worth at least 3 cards. You're drawing so many that an empty hand almost never happens. Against aggro the same is true.
I'll playtest Zegana more, but based on the few games I played she is the real deal.
I'm on the fence with Urban Evolution. It's a great card, but the alternatives might be better. I think the list I posted is only 59 cards, evolution seems like a great 60th.
I agree about Simic Keyrune, unless you tap out, it's pretty hard to get rid of it, and it blocks 2/2 just as well as Selesnya Keyrune, without the risk of getting burned.
Yeah, it seems great! If call of the conclave is popular, Selesnya might be better, but for now the hexproof seems worth it.
I think running Loxodon Smiter main can be interesting too. It's really good against control, it can force them to play a verdict early.. its only flaw is that it doesn't block Lyev. I would just throw in the loxodon instead of the deadbridge main.
Deathbridge is integral to the deck against aggro game 1. It doesn't die to Abrupt Decay or Mizzium Mortars. It's just a big, fat wall. I wouldn't cut it, because it really ties the deck together: Zegana, Simic Keyrune, and Lyev all combo with it very well. Plus, a 5/5 is a pretty sick threat!
I could run loxodon maindeck, but only over skynight. I like skynight because it deals with planeswalkers pretty well, and unlike smiter you can still get marginal value if it is removed.
I've seen list run Gyre Sage too, it can get very fat when you play Lyev, Loxodon, Wurm..
Hmmm... That is an interesting idea. I didn't consider any of the evolve creatures. More ramp is probably good, but I'm not sure if it's fast enough. I'll have to try it out.
Finally, I'd rather have a Psychic Spiral than a Worldspine Wurm in my sideboard, aside the fact that you need to cast the Spiral, it shuffles your whole graveyard into your library, it can also mill your opponent.
Agreed. I tested Wurm and it just doesn't do enough. Serene Remembrance could do the trick too. We'll have to see if mill is a problem; the Bant mirror is a lot different than the UW mirror.
Individually, I disagree with all your changes, but taken as a whole they could be very good! You're leaning toward more of a ramp version and I was trying to aim at specific cards in the meta. A deck with your suggestions may very well be more powerful!
Some facts of magic:
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
Anyone interested in seeing a video of this deck in action?
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Some facts of magic:
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
I haven't played this deck yet, so my opinion might be off. I plan to buy the cards soon as Gatecrash prices are pretty low.
I think there are 2 ways to go with bant.
You go creature heavy with Gyre Sage and Zegana, Prime Speaker, and try to build around Gyre Sage. Sage seems really good. As it ramps you vs control to make your revelations better, and it blocks vs aggro. It also helps you with that garbage counter syncopate.
I constructed the main deck mostly to deal with the amount of aggro running rampant on MTGO and have been extremely succesfull for a few days. I 3-1'd two DE's with this and at one point was 15-2 in the 2-men queues. However, both RDW and Naya midrange have been giving me nightmares and those two decks seem *really* popular right now. I just can't seem to win against those. I was 0-5 yesterday against those
Naya gets out a fast Domi Rade and then just puts threat after threat with their extra cards until I eventually run out of answers. And if I do manage to live early on, it's usually at less than 10 life and they just eventually burn me with Skullcrack and Boros Reckoner. Oh and they play Clan Defiance too.
Bant has the best anti aggro card in centaur healer. It's basically a time walk when cast on turn 3. Maybe your opponents nut drew those games. Also you're running 3 d-spheres and a bunch of creatures to kill dormi rade. I'm thinking your opponents just drew better than you in those match ups.
So I've been thinking making space for 2 Jaces and add in Tablet of the Guilds somewhere, but that would leave me with WW as well as BB casting costs at the 4-drop and G being *required* to even try and stay alive. The tablets would also likely take the place of the gatecreepers, further destabilizing the manabase.
Anyone got some more input?
The problem with tablet is that there's another legal card called heroes' reunion. In order for tablet to beat heroes reunion you have to cast 4-5 spells. You can't just brick on lands or draw 7 drops or draw the wrong color lands to cast your spells. But obviously the tablet is better if you gain more than 7 life. I think heroes reunion is better in bant, but tablet is better in UW. I wouldn't play heroes reunion as bant has good enough anti aggo cards.
I think one of your problems is that you play 24 creatures and you play 3 wraths. That's not really a good combination. You probably want no wraths main, or you want to cut that creature number in half. If you decide to play no wraths you can swap them for jaces.
To me it looks like you need more action before turn 3. Currently you have gatecreeper, gyre sage, and azorius charm. Gatecreeper can only chump block, and gyre sage isn't going to do any blocking until turn 3 or 4. That means unless you draw 1 of 4 azorius charms, you aren't doing anything relevant against aggro until turn 3.
I would try moving Selesnya charm main over Gyre Sage or some of the 3-drops. You aren't ramping into too many cards, so gyre sage is just a 3/4 or a 2/3 that takes some work to actually power up. It's good, but it's slow. The selesnya charms help against aggro by trading with 3/2's and 2/2's. It can also be cast EOT after they attack and hit Domri or Jace. I've taken down a lot of planeswalkers with a flash 2/2 token. Not to mention, the fact that it can exile a 5/x is pretty relevant against Spark Trooper.
I would try this out before tablet of the guilds or heroes' reunion. Jace over verdict seems like a solid choice as well.
Some facts of magic:
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
I've played with Deadbridge Goliath and I liked it. It does a lot against aggro -- the only commonly played cards that deal with it are Dreadbore and... nothing. I guess if you're playing against Naya they have Selesnya charm.
Honestly, Simic Keyrune is not a terrible choice. It doesn't get hit by any removal if it's alive, and it can block most creatures. If you have enough early instant-speed action, this is a decent card to play. If most of your stuff is sorcery speed, I would leave it out. Note that it combos with Deadbridge Goliath pretty well for a late game that UW and UWb have a tough time beating.
I've made a few changes to my original list and I'm not playing these guys anymore, but I haven't done enough testing to see if it was a positive or negative change. I have found that going to 4 revelation, 3 zegana, and 3 angel of serenity is powerful enough that you don't need the late game combo; you will simply out-card any other deck in the format (I mean, that's like 7 revelations, and you can get 3 back with angel?! Crazy!). Play out your hand, they deal with it, reload, play out your hand, they deal with it, reload... eventually they can't deal with it.
One more point - and this one is subtle - removal is A LOT better than creatures against the aggro matchups. Most of them will have cheap sorcery-speed removal for your early creatures or bloodrush to push through them. This means that if you just try to play creatures and block, they will get killed, and you will take a bunch of damage. By the time they're out of removal, they can chump-attack and kill you. I've been playing the full set of detention sphere for this reason, and I don't think I can be convinced to do otherwise.
I really like my build, I guess, because it seems like all my suggestions just are steered that way. It appears I'm biased, so take my suggestions with a grain of salt. If you find something else that works, go for it, because outside of the list posted on the first page, I haven't extensively tested other cards.
Some facts of magic:
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
Your 4 drop slot is already full if you're main decking supreme verdicts, so Deadbridge Goliath doesn't really fit in the deck. If you're playing the more creature heavy versions of bant, I could see playing Goliath. Though the creature heavy versions aren't really control decks (which is what this thread is about).
I'm not sure I really like key runes in control decks. They're too slow in aggro matches. And they're pretty weak in control mirrors when everyone has high life totals. And they're outclassed in the mid range match ups, though I guess the mana ramp might be better than playing a centaur healer in that spot.
Here's the deck I played in the 11pm pacific time daily
It's the decklist I previously posted with a tweaked sideboard.
Played against 3 mono red decks. Went 2-0 in the first two rounds and lost in the 3rd. These games are pretty dumb. It's based on the die roll and if you can draw a verdict. Sideboard games you're more favored, but then they can still draw their sideboard cards and win. I thought I stabilized with an armada wurm but he had act of treason.
I could have played one of the games I lost differently. I azorius charm'd an ash zealot when I was at 12 life. I could have cycled the charm instead to try and draw a wrath. Or I could have charm'd a Burning-Tree Emissary, but I don't know how viable that is when the opponent has 4 cards in hand. I thought preserving my life total was fine since I could stabilize with armada wurm, but the guy had act of treason. It looks like most lists play 0-2 act of treasons, so i'm not sure if the odds are better trying to dig 1 card deeper for wrath.
I still think bant is favored vs mono red. But sometimes they nut draw on you and you don't draw a verdict.
4th round was against a naya deck with main deck keening apparitions, Gideons, Domris and assemble the legion. Game 2 I sided out all my dspheres and he drew 2 apparitions. I was able to counter turn 3 domri and turn 4 gideon, but he had turn 5 assemble. I might have been able to grind him out since he was down to 12 via shock lands, but he also had an angel for my angel. Game 3 he didn't have that sick curve so I crushed him with revelations, jaces and countered all his threats. For some reason he thought he could play 7 drops as I countered his Sylvan Primordial game 3. That deck seems like a nightmare match up since we rely on d-sphere for non creature permanents and they main deck apparitions.
So I went 3-1. A junk deck went 4-0, beating the mono red deck I lost to in round 3. Junk also seems heavily favored vs aggro.
I like the deck. I think it's the best positioned control deck since it has a good aggro match up. It also has answers to obzedat.
As for the decklist. I'm not sure about keyrunes, they're pretty underwhelming. Though they can be decent at answering planeswalkers, notably gideon. Not sure I want 4 urban evolutions. I have too many cards I side in for the control/mid range match ups, so I might go down to 3. I might want a sundering growth for assemble and opposing d-spheres. Psychic spiral is another card I might consider adding.
Went 4-2, missed top 8 by a fraction Got my entry fee back for top 16ing at least.
I faced 3 sphinx's revelation decks. Went 1-2 against them. My losses were because I got flooded and then mulled to 4 against Paul Rietzl playing for top 8. Paul kept in syncopate post board, I don't think that's correct, but w/e. The 2 losses were to UW, and my win was against the mirror. I don't think the UW match up is that bad. I'd imagine bant is slightly favored because it has armada wurms and Selesnya charms.
I also beat a junk deck that appeared to be splashing red for rakdos return. Unfortunately for him my last card I hand in hand after he cast it was a sphinx's revelation. Junk just seems super underpowered.
I only faced 1 aggro deck, r/g aggro. Seems worse than mono red, though ghor clan rampager is a blow out. He won the roll, but I was able to draw verdict and stabilize. And game 3 I drew 3 verdicts to seal the deal.
My other win was because the guy didn't show. I think that's why my breakers were so bad?
I like the deck, though sphinx's revelation mirrors are pretty annoying. I won with 1 minute on the clock in the first round.
EDIT Paul won the tourney beating the r/g aggro deck in finals
pretty sure the r/g aggro deck is this one
Played 4 mono red decks in tonight's daily, went 3-1. Lost a match due to not having a 4 land for verdict, that card is so good.
Using the same list as above, but now i'm cutting sundering growth for dramatic rescue. I wanted growth mostly for assemble the legion, but that card is rarely played. Rescue seems sweet if people are going to ghor clan rampage you or use dynacharge as a shock. It's like a 5th azorius charm. Heroes' reunion seems interesting, but it does nothing against skull crack.
So for sideboarding vs aggro i go
-2 armada wurms (horrible vs act of treason if they have legion loyalist, still want 1 as its good if they don't have act)
-1 angel of serenity (at least this wraths their board if they have act of treason, though you should always try to play around act. And this card lets you win with damage if they won't concede by the time you cast it)
-1 urban evolution
-1 Jace (I'd keep 4, but now that I have dramatic rescue I think jace is the weakest card. He's basically a win more card if you can tap out with him and not die, plus drawing multiples is pretty bad)
I like your deck rick. How would you feel about cutting 1 Azorius Charm for 1 more Selesnya Charm? It's an excellent card vs control because it exiles Angel and kills Jace 90% of the time after they cast it and -2. It's also never a "dead" card vs control. Azorius Charm may be able to cycle, but in the control matchup you are basically running 30 spells and 26 land when every Azorius Charm is cycled away.
I cut gideon for a psychic spiral. Gideon is just too slow if you don't have other cheap creatures to put pressure on the opponent. Spiral is a nice win condition. It's hard to win by damage since opponents gain 20+ life off of revelations, and your creatures get removed every turn. Since I don't plan on tempoing my opponent out with precinct captains and skynights, spiral fits my game plan more. And that tempo plan UW decks have is pretty annoying, as I usually shave off 1 verdict. But it's risky for them as if they don't curve out with cheap creatures they're going to draw them late where they're pretty awful.
Azorius charm is better against aggro. And there are more aggro decks than control decks. Azorius charm stops blood rush, punishes land light hands, and is good against dynacharge. Against aggro, It's never a bad top deck where selesyna charm is. In control mirrors you can keep 2 land hands if you have an azorius charm. But I normally board down to 0-2 azorius charms in control mirrors.
Playing a 4th d-sphere over a 4th azorius charm has merit. But there are people who main deck keening apparition, naya does this, and so does UW. So i'm not in a hurry to play more d-spheres. And I always side them out against straight UW decks.
The deck has been performing well. I've 3-1'd 6 of the last 7 dailies, and 2-1-1'd the other one since I was on good terms with that opponent. I'm pretty happy with the main deck. Though the sideboard could always be improved. The smiter, skynight and spiral are all questionable.
Rickster,
Thanks for posting here, I find your posts very informative. In fact, your detailed posts are what pushed me over the edge to finally start trying a constructed format. I've been playing MTGO for years but mostly just draft and play in the sealed dailies.
I recently put together your bant deck and have been playing in dailies and got smashed the first two that I entered, 0-2 drop. I blame it on not knowing the deck well enough, I lost to bad decisions 2 of those games and the other games I ran out of time, but I never felt like I was in a position where I couldn't win the game. Last night I did a bit better, 2-2 losing my last 2 to mono red aggro due to horrible draws and Royals BWR list.
The only decks that I have played that I felt like I have no idea how to play against are the B/R/W control decks, I just have no idea how to board against them. I played against Royal and game 1 he keyruned into radkos return for 3 into radkos return for 4 and emptied my hand and I couldn't find my only maindeck answer to odzebat before I died. I am not sure quite how to sideboard, I -4 supreme verdict, -2 azorious charm, +2 selesnya charm, + 3 cancel, +1 sphynx revelation. Is this a good sideboard plan? How would you recommend I change the sideboard/strategize for this matchup. My thoughts would be to hold counters up early to protect from radkos return until you can develop your board and hold counter magic up at the same time. Any suggestions to improve this matchup?
The bant deck, and control decks in general have lots of play to them. So you will make incorrect decisions when starting out. Though my success in the first 7 dailies i've played was due to the fact that i've drawn a fair share of timely verdicts, and white sources to cast them. The bulk of my wins come against aggro decks where i'm about 75% against them. Control and midrange on the other hand are about 50%. I'm still not quite sure how to win against other revelation decks, which is why i have psychic spiral in the board. Control and midrange are on the rise where as aggro is on the decline so winning games in the near future is definitely harder. Also when I started playing the format was relatively new, so people didn't know what they're doing. Now most people know how to play around cards and how to sideboard correctly, so being new to the format you're at a disadvantage till you get more games under your belt.
As for the BRW (black boros) deck, i haven't faced it enough to know the intricacies of the match up. That's mostly because I haven't played much block lately, not because I've managed to dodge getting paired against it or that it's not heavily played. I think Black Boros is starting to become popular enough that you want more smiters in the board, and possibly 4 syncopates main. After losing to royal playing for packs here's my 75. The main deck is the same, i've tweaked the sideboard.
A skynight and dramatic rescue became 2 more smiters. Skynight and rescue both came in against aggro, and smiter can come in against aggro as well. Skynight also came in against control, but so can smiter.
Some of my wins vs decks that have rakdos's return are by me getting free smiters into play. Smiter lets you tap out and not get too punished by rakdos's return.
There's also the option of moving a verdict or centaur healer from the main to the board, and adding a 4th syncopate main. But to do that you'd have to cut a card from the sideboard, probably a detention sphere or an urban evolution.
I am not sure quite how to sideboard, I -4 supreme verdict, -2 azorious charm, +2 selesnya charm, + 3 cancel, +1 sphynx revelation. Is this a good sideboard plan?
I like most of that plan. Supreme verdict is terrible versus their deck of haste creatures and keyrunes. Though it is awkward if they play turn 3 reckoner. Azorius charm is always a fine card to side out to bring in more impactful cards. Selesnya charm is great vs obzedat and so is cancel.
The card I question is revelation. If these decks are going to jam 4 slaughter games, I don't know how good revelation is. Since this deck has access to urban evolution you might just want to play 3 revelations. Now they could not draw slaughter games, or they could not board in 4, so revelation could have been better there than evolution. But that is my thinking on the matter which could be incorrect.
Also you really should have 2-3 smiters in your sideboard.
You can also watch royal's stream to see how his deck plays against control.
I haven't scanned to see if he plays bant (besides when he played me), here's him playing against UW:
Rickster,
Thanks for responding to my post and sharing your thoughts on the matter. I agree with your reccommendation on running more smiters, I don't have any in my 75 right now. Now to figure out what to cut though. I will probably end up running the exact same list of you except running 1 more selesnyia charm in the side at the expense of the psychic spiral specifically for obzedat because I really haven't found a use for the spiral. I also want to find room for deadbridge goliath in the side. I want to be able to diversify my threats a bit more against slaughter games because they almost always either name Armada Wurm or Angel first. Also, deadbridge would be huge against those decks dodging most of their removal as well as blocking obzedat profitably. Scavenge onto anything and the only thing they have that will be able to deal with it is dreadbore. My only worry is that this would shift the deck away from a control build to a more midrange and that losing those extra sideboard slots would hurt too much versus other matchups.
In my experience (however small) the bant deck seems favored against u/w because we have just as many counters, more big creatures and more draw than they do. We also have more ways to exile their angels than they have to exile ours, so we win angel wars as well. It runs well against the junk decks as well, with Vraska and obzedat being their only decent plays against us. The aggro decks matchup is pretty easy as long as we hit our colors and have 2 plays within the first 4 turns of the game. Although that is more if's than the other matchups.
Your reccomendation on not siding in the revelation definately has merit, and is why the smiters and maybe deadbridge would give us more play than them early and save our counters for Aurelia/obzedat/radkos return.
Yeah cutting psychic spiral is fine. I just have it till I figure out a plan to win the control mirrors. I've had my fair share of games coming down to who decks first without psychic spiral being a factor.
The card that's on the chopping block for me is urban evolution, at least its inclusion in the main deck. The time to get the most value out of urban evolution is on turn 5-6 when the extra land really pays off. However that means you're tapping out which isn't a good strategy for this deck. Playing it on turn 15 is mediocre, especially i'm only playing 3 sphinx's revelation. So it might be better as the 4th revelation or 4th syncopate.
Urban evolution is awesome in the sideboard games however, as it can't be dispel'd and it helps you come back vs rakdos's return and slaughter games.
I think smiters are probably enough against black boros. They should be siding out mortars as it doesn't hit very many targets. Or if you wanted to you could probably play a 7 drop flyer in place of a smiter, diluvian primordial, Archon of the Triumvirate,
This is my pick for best UW-based deck. The reason this is better than UW, Esper, or UWR control is simple: Prime Speaker Zegana. You now have 6-8 Sphinx's Revelations. Here's the best part... you can bring her back from the dead with Angel of Serenity. There is just NO WAY that any other control deck can beat that card advantage.
To give the speaker a boost, I play Deathbridge goliath. He is reasonably difficult to kill and provides virtual card advantage with his scavenge ability. Playing french-vanilla creatures like this make us vulnerable to removal. Enter Simic Keyrune: this is our SECOND way to trump the other control decks. If they don't have Merciless Eviction, they will lose to your 7/8 mutant keyrune. I really cannot stress how good this is. It's a near-unbeatable endgame.
Rakdos' return is still a legitimate threat, which is why the sideboard carries the full 4 copies of Loxodon Smiter. Discarding smiter and Deathbridge Goliath to return puts a 9/9 haste on the board for 6 mana. Frequently it's enough to get there. Smiter comes in against aggro decks. Bant control basically becomes bant midrange - your 4/4's and 5/5's are more than enough to hold back the 3/2's and 3/3's.
I've been testing and this list, card for card, and it has proven extremely powerful and resilient. The keyrune-Scavenge plan works, as does the midrange sideboard plan. I'm currently 7-3 in the 2-man room. This deck is the real deal.
Here's my latest list:
4 Selesnya Charm
3 Simic Keyrune
4 Detention Sphere
4 Lyev Skynight
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
3 Deathbridge Goliath
2 Armada Wurm
2 Prime Speaker Zegana
2 Angel of Serenity
1 Syncopate
4 Hallowed Fountain
3 Azorius Guildgate
4 Temple Garden
3 Selesnya Guildgate
2 Breeding pool
4 Forest
4 Island
1 Plains
3 Dispel
1 Syncopate
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Dryad Militant
1 Psychic Spiral
2 Supreme Verdict
Against UW-based control decks, bring in the countermagic for Azorius Charm and 1 Deathbridge goliath. Selesnya charm hits the ghost council and angel, the two most popular threats at the moment. If you are worried about being milled out (I'm not sure if this is a thing yet), then board in Worldspine wurm (It gives you an extra turn, at least...).
Against Golgari, Boros, and Selesnya Aggro, exchange 2 sphinx's revelation, 2 Prime Speaker Zegana, 1 Jace, 2 Angel of Serenity, and 3 Simic Keyrune for Loxodon Smiter, Dryad Militant, and Supreme Verdict. The goal here is to lower your curve and beat them in the long game. You're a midrange deck now, not a control deck. Dryad militants are particularly good against Deathrite Shaman, because they turn off his burn ability.
Against Rakdos Aggro, your plan is a little different. This deck has a lot of removal, so you actually want the keyrunes in. Bring in the loxodon, the dryad, verdict, and syncopate. Take out all the big guys except armada wurm, 1 sphinx's revelation, and 3 Jace. This is the toughest matchup that I've tested against so far. Another sideboard plan may be better. Simic Charm may be worth considering here for both protecting your creatures and the bounce ability.
Against Jund, bring in Mystic Genesis and Loxodon Smiter for 3 Azorius Charm and 2 Lyev Skynight. Try to set up a scavenge onto Simic Keyrune with mana open to give it hexproof. If you successfully do this, they have no way to beat it. Keep your mana up for hexproof!
Cards to try:
This (or something similar) is my pick for best block deck from RTR. It has answers to everything. A large chunk (31 cards) are dedicated to mana to make sure that it can resolve Armada Wurm and Angel of serenity. If this deck needs anything, it's more card selection, since mana or 6-drop heavy hands are certainly possible. The deck may be leaning on supreme verdict a little too much to get to the late game. If that is the case, it may be necessary to cut a few of the 6 and 7 drops for Azorius charm or other early removal.
2 Cyclonic Rift
2 Selesnya Charm
4 Detention Sphere
4 Centaur Healer
2 Azorius Keyrune
2 Loxodon Smiter
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
4 Armada Wurm
3 Angel of Serenity
4 Temple Garden
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Azorious Guildgate
4 Selesnya Guildgate
4 Forest
3 Plains
2 Island
EDIT: The version below is better. I explain a few posts down.
2 Syncopate
2 Selesnya Charm
2 Azorius Charm
2 Detention Sphere
4 Centaur Healer
3 Azorius Keyrune
2 Selesnya Keyrune
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
4 Armada Wurm
1 Angel of Serenity
2 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Temple Garden
4 Hallowed Fountain
3 Azorious Guildgate
3 Selesnya Guildgate
4 Forest
3 Plains
2 Island
2 Grove of the Guardian
2 Azorius Charm
2 Selesnya Charm
1 Precinct Captain
1 Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage
4 Lyev Skynight
4 Detention Sphere
3 Azorius Keyrune
1 Selesnya Keyrune
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
4 Deathbridge Goliath
3 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Grove of the Guardian
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Temple Garden
3 Azorius Guildgate
3 Selesnya Guildgate
5 Island
5 Forest
4 Dispel
2 Cancel
3 Supreme Verdict
2 Loxodon Smiter
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Azorius Keyrune
2 Azorius Arrester
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
More facts of magic
How do you handle anything outside of aggro?
The entire deck seems built around fending off lots of creatures.
Abrupt decay / mizzium mortars / dreadbore takes care of loxodon smiter, and then if your wincons get discarded (rakdos return) or countered (syncopate, cancel, counterflux), it seems like you won't be able to do anything else.
It seems to me like this deck has no way of winning against a control matchup. It also has no reach without jayce; once the hand is spent you're going to be topdecking.
In addition, with the gatekeepers, I really think you can tone down the lands to at least 24, if not 23. I feel in this current implementation you would be likely to get mana-flooded and then be in topdeck-mode with one win condition in your hand.
What are your thoughts on what I've said?
You're right. This deck is mostly configured to deal with Aggro and midrange decks. I suppose that's what the sideboard is for. Syncopate will be particularly good because I suspect I'll have more lands in play than my opponents.
I see what you're getting at, but isn't that true of any deck? Abrupt decay / Mortars / dreadbore kills early things, and rakdos return and counterspells can handle late things? I'm not seeing how this is different than a "dies to removal" argument. I think I have a significant number of hard-to-deal with threats. If I resolve an armada wurm, your hypothetical grixis control deck is going to have a real headache. I know there are answers to it, but hopefully you see my point.
There are no other sources in GUW of repeatable card advantage besides Jace.
Yeah, you're right. I mentioned that in the OP. Perhaps removing some basics for 2-3 of the selesnya man-land would provide a good balance. Another possiblity is to replace some of the gatecreepers with keyrunes. A mana base like that would have a little more utility. Remember that I want to cast 6 and 7 mana spells on turns... 5 to 8. I definitely need a large number of sources to do that consistently.
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
More facts of magic
I guess what I mean to say is that your win seems dependent on so few cards. That might not be true in play, but that was just my first impression. I might be wrong about this though.
I want to combine this and your last point into a double solution, possibly.
While you have no repeatable forms of card advantage, I think there are some good options to stay in the game longer.
Sphinx's Revelation is a good card. It's not game breaking, but in the block constructed selection, it is good. I was thinking maybe a more controll-ish implementation with 4x Axebane Guardian and 4x Hover Barrier? Hover Barrier with sphinx's revelation will provide the sustain necessary to survive against aggro, which is what you're already doing with Centaur Healer and Loxodon Smiter. You wouldn't have as much mid-rangey aggression, but it seems like your win is mostly based on your end-cards anyway.
Axebane also provides some serious mana ramp. Two in a row is +2 mana on turn 4, and +4 on turn 5, and the more you get with hover barrier, the better he gets. You can even still keep gatekeeper as a two drop because now he's useful for something other than chump-blocking. Then, you just hold off until turn 4 or 5, and start churning out threats until they run out of answers. Isperia, Serenity, Armada Wurm, etc. If they stop them all, cast a Sphinx's for 7 and refill your hand. What do you think?
Are there any inevitable threats in this format that we want to ramp into? Niv-mizzet, dracogenius? That big wurm?
We'll have to see whether Niv-mizzet or Armada wurm proves to be more game ending. The one that seals the deal better will probably decide whether control decks are bant or URW.
Sphinx's Revelation is a good option. I can definitely see playing 1 or 2 main deck, and more in the sideboard.
After reading this: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=10779, and based on your comments, here's my new take on the deck:
2 Syncopate
2 Selesnya Charm
2 Azorius Charm
2 Detention Sphere
4 Centaur Healer
3 Azorius Keyrune
2 Selesnya Keyrune
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
4 Armada Wurm
1 Angel of Serenity
2 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Temple Garden
4 Hallowed Fountain
3 Azorious Guildgate
3 Selesnya Guildgate
4 Forest
3 Plains
2 Island
2 Grove of the Guardian
The sideboard will include additional ways to kill artifacts and enchantments, Aerial Predation, Sphinx's Revelation, more counterspells, and Loxodon Smiter if Rakdos's Return becomes popular.
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
More facts of magic
I decided I wanted more creatures. The extra creatures help win the Jace war and are pretty effective against rakdos and other aggro decks. Also, you can just win by curving out, something that UW control can't do. Imagine a turn 2 3/3, turn 3 4/4, turn 4 5/5... that alone will beat many average draws. Even if you get wrathed, it's ok, Armada wurm brings you right back. Slaughter Games is a joke of a sideboard card. Grove of the Guardian is more playable in this build, and it's addition gives us a more efficient deck than UW control. Selesnya Charm takes out anything that tries to go bigger than us: Demon, Jarad, Angel of Serenity, other Deathbridge goliaths. It's also the reason I included Archon of the Triumvirate in the sideboard.
2 Syncopate
4 Call of the Conclave
4 Selesnya Charm
1 Cyclonic Rift
4 Centaur Healer
4 Loxodon Smiter
2 Detention Sphere
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
3 Deathbridge Goliath
2 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Grove of the Guardian
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Temple Garden
3 Azorius Guildgate
3 Selesnya Guildgate
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Forest
3 Dispel
4 Cancel
3 Rootborn defenses
2 Sundering Growth
1 Archon of the Triumvirate
2 Aerial Predation
Judge's familiar -- It's an unusual choice. The reason I run it... it just slows everything down.
*Rakdos can't cast a threat and Mizzium mortars on turn 4 anymore.
*Rakdos Return hits for 1 less.
*Sphinx's Revelation draws 1 less card.
*Call of the Conclave is a lot worse at 3 mana
*You win counter wars. (Turn 4 Jace is not vulnerable to opponent's cancel on the play)
*Great with Deathbridge Goliath
*Blocks Rakdos shred-freak
It not look like you're doing much, but it effectively reads "Instants and sorcery spells your opponents cast cost an additional 1," and there are a lot of critical instants and sorceries in this format.
I ditched the keyrunes because the ramp wasn't as good as more creatures. People are starting to play more artifact removal as well. Abrupt Decay on my turn 3 keyrune happened a little too often.
4 Loxodon Smiter and 3 Deathbridge Goliath really go a long way to turning the ever popular Rakdos Return from a blowout to... well... a blowout in the other direction. Grove of the Guardian helps here too, just by being a threat you can get on the field early. These same cards also make Lotleth troll much less problematic.
Sideboard is always in flux. Trotsanti, selsnya's voice seems like a good sb card against rakdos. Pithing needle seems interesting against Jace, Lotleth troll, Jarad, Deathrite Shaman, keyrunes, etc. Leyev Skynight is a solid card, and could even be better than Centuar Healer main deck.
Last thoughts: More Syncopate and Sphinx's Revelation main deck could be very strong.
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
More facts of magic
Fr0st (3-1)
RTR Block Constructed Daily #4940472 on 01/29/2013
2 Forest
4 Hallowed Fountain
6 Island
4 Selesnya Guildgate
4 Temple Garden
3 Angel of Serenity
4 Armada Wurm
4 Gatecreeper Vine
2 Azorius Keyrune
2 Cancel
4 Detention Sphere
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Selesnya Keyrune
3 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Supreme Verdict
1 Cancel
4 Dispel
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Selesnya Charm
2 Sundering Growth
Winpo (6th Place)
RTR Block Constructed Premier #4940443 on 01/28/2013
4 Forest
4 Hallowed Fountain
7 Island
4 Selesnya Guildgate
4 Temple Garden
3 Angel of Serenity
1 Armada Wurm
1 Keening Apparition
4 Lyev Skyknight
4 Precinct Captain
3 Detention Sphere
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
3 Selesnya Charm
4 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Armada Wurm
4 Centaur Healer
4 Dispel
4 Loxodon Smiter
2 Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
More facts of magic
I know Zegana can potentially draw you more than 3 cards for 6 mana, but it's board dependant, making it a very poor top deck. I know this is not a reason to cut it, but I'd run 4 Sphinx's Revelation before adding my first Zegana into the deck. I think Urban Evolution is a safer choice over Zegana, it's one mana cheaper, always draw you 3 cards and it possibly ramps.. I imagine this situation where you have no lands in hand and cast Urban Evolution drawing 2 lands and 1 Sphinx's Revelation.. wouldn't that be awesome?
I agree about Simic Keyrune, unless you tap out, it's pretty hard to get rid of it, and it blocks 2/2 just as well as Selesnya Keyrune, without the risk of getting burned.
I think running Loxodon Smiter main can be interesting too. It's really good against control, it can force them to play a verdict early.. its only flaw is that it doesn't block Lyev. I would just throw in the loxodon instead of the deadbridge main.
I've seen list run Gyre Sage too, it can get very fat when you play Lyev, Loxodon, Wurm..
And now of course Selesnya Charm is even more useful at taking care of Obzedat.
Finally, I'd rather have a Psychic Spiral than a Worldspine Wurm in my sideboard, aside the fact that you need to cast the Spiral, it shuffles your whole graveyard into your library, it can also mill your opponent.
Haha, good point. I originally had 1 revelation in the sideboard, but I realized I did not want to take out more than 4 cards against other control decks. Dispel seemed more important.
I have run into problems in the past where I am "revelation flooded" against aggro decks. Zegana mitigates this problem, allowing me to draw more cards and effectively gain more life than revelation would. Zegana also combos well with Angel of Serenity; it's a revelation that you can use more than once. Finally, if an opponent casts angel exiling zegana, they're effectively giving you another revelation! The fact that she's a creature makes her extremely powerful. (She combos with selesnya charm too -- either the creature or the +2/+2 modes)
Against control decks, it is rare to be without a creature or keyrune to make Zegana worth at least 3 cards. You're drawing so many that an empty hand almost never happens. Against aggro the same is true.
I'll playtest Zegana more, but based on the few games I played she is the real deal.
I'm on the fence with Urban Evolution. It's a great card, but the alternatives might be better. I think the list I posted is only 59 cards, evolution seems like a great 60th.
Yeah, it seems great! If call of the conclave is popular, Selesnya might be better, but for now the hexproof seems worth it.
Deathbridge is integral to the deck against aggro game 1. It doesn't die to Abrupt Decay or Mizzium Mortars. It's just a big, fat wall. I wouldn't cut it, because it really ties the deck together: Zegana, Simic Keyrune, and Lyev all combo with it very well. Plus, a 5/5 is a pretty sick threat!
I could run loxodon maindeck, but only over skynight. I like skynight because it deals with planeswalkers pretty well, and unlike smiter you can still get marginal value if it is removed.
Hmmm... That is an interesting idea. I didn't consider any of the evolve creatures. More ramp is probably good, but I'm not sure if it's fast enough. I'll have to try it out.
Yep. Auto 4-of. I've been killing Obzedat, Angel, and bloodrushed dudes all day.
Agreed. I tested Wurm and it just doesn't do enough. Serene Remembrance could do the trick too. We'll have to see if mill is a problem; the Bant mirror is a lot different than the UW mirror.
Individually, I disagree with all your changes, but taken as a whole they could be very good! You're leaning toward more of a ramp version and I was trying to aim at specific cards in the meta. A deck with your suggestions may very well be more powerful!
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
More facts of magic
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
More facts of magic
I think there are 2 ways to go with bant.
You go creature heavy with Gyre Sage and Zegana, Prime Speaker, and try to build around Gyre Sage. Sage seems really good. As it ramps you vs control to make your revelations better, and it blocks vs aggro. It also helps you with that garbage counter syncopate.
3 Azorius Guildgate
4 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
4 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
2 Plains
3 Selesnya Guildgate
3 Simic Guildgate
4 Temple Garden
Creatures 21
2 Angel of Serenity
3 Armada Wurm
3 Centaur Healer
4 Gyre Sage
3 Loxodon Smiter
4 Lyev Skyknight
1 Prime Speaker Zegana
1 Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
2 Azorius Charm
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Selesnya Charm
3 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Urban Evolution
1 Angel of Serenity
1 Armada Wurm
2 Cancel
1 Centaur Healer
1 Detention Sphere
1 Dispel
1 Loxodon Smiter
1 Selesnya Keyrune
3 Supreme Verdict
1 Syncopate
1 Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
1 Urban Evolution
Or you go the creature light version with some cheap guys to block/chump with and big finishers while main decking 4 wraths:
3 Azorius Guildgate
4 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
4 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
2 Plains
3 Selesnya Guildgate
3 Simic Guildgate
4 Temple Garden
Creatures 10
3 Angel of Serenity
3 Armada Wurm
2 Centaur Healer
1 Gatecreeper Vine
1 Lyev Skyknight
4 Azorius Charm
2 Detention Sphere
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Selesnya Charm
1 Selesnya Keyrune
3 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Supreme Verdict
3 Syncopate
2 Urban Evolution
1 Angel of Serenity
1 Azorius Keyrune
2 Centaur Healer
2 Detention Sphere
4 Dispel
1 Selesnya Charm
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Syncopate
2 Urban Evolution
As for which one is better i'm not sure. Zegana and gyre sage seem really sweet though.
Bant has the best anti aggro card in centaur healer. It's basically a time walk when cast on turn 3. Maybe your opponents nut drew those games. Also you're running 3 d-spheres and a bunch of creatures to kill dormi rade. I'm thinking your opponents just drew better than you in those match ups.
The problem with tablet is that there's another legal card called heroes' reunion. In order for tablet to beat heroes reunion you have to cast 4-5 spells. You can't just brick on lands or draw 7 drops or draw the wrong color lands to cast your spells. But obviously the tablet is better if you gain more than 7 life. I think heroes reunion is better in bant, but tablet is better in UW. I wouldn't play heroes reunion as bant has good enough anti aggo cards.
I think one of your problems is that you play 24 creatures and you play 3 wraths. That's not really a good combination. You probably want no wraths main, or you want to cut that creature number in half. If you decide to play no wraths you can swap them for jaces.
I would try moving Selesnya charm main over Gyre Sage or some of the 3-drops. You aren't ramping into too many cards, so gyre sage is just a 3/4 or a 2/3 that takes some work to actually power up. It's good, but it's slow. The selesnya charms help against aggro by trading with 3/2's and 2/2's. It can also be cast EOT after they attack and hit Domri or Jace. I've taken down a lot of planeswalkers with a flash 2/2 token. Not to mention, the fact that it can exile a 5/x is pretty relevant against Spark Trooper.
I would try this out before tablet of the guilds or heroes' reunion. Jace over verdict seems like a solid choice as well.
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
More facts of magic
Honestly, Simic Keyrune is not a terrible choice. It doesn't get hit by any removal if it's alive, and it can block most creatures. If you have enough early instant-speed action, this is a decent card to play. If most of your stuff is sorcery speed, I would leave it out. Note that it combos with Deadbridge Goliath pretty well for a late game that UW and UWb have a tough time beating.
I've made a few changes to my original list and I'm not playing these guys anymore, but I haven't done enough testing to see if it was a positive or negative change. I have found that going to 4 revelation, 3 zegana, and 3 angel of serenity is powerful enough that you don't need the late game combo; you will simply out-card any other deck in the format (I mean, that's like 7 revelations, and you can get 3 back with angel?! Crazy!). Play out your hand, they deal with it, reload, play out your hand, they deal with it, reload... eventually they can't deal with it.
One more point - and this one is subtle - removal is A LOT better than creatures against the aggro matchups. Most of them will have cheap sorcery-speed removal for your early creatures or bloodrush to push through them. This means that if you just try to play creatures and block, they will get killed, and you will take a bunch of damage. By the time they're out of removal, they can chump-attack and kill you. I've been playing the full set of detention sphere for this reason, and I don't think I can be convinced to do otherwise.
I really like my build, I guess, because it seems like all my suggestions just are steered that way. It appears I'm biased, so take my suggestions with a grain of salt. If you find something else that works, go for it, because outside of the list posted on the first page, I haven't extensively tested other cards.
-Terror is an emotion which, when experienced, results in death.
-The pox was a disease notorious for having killed one-third, rounded up, of Europe’s population. Smallpox, on the other hand, killed only a single person.
-A person riding a horse cannot be stopped by foot soldiers, large animals, walls, archers, or even catapults.
More facts of magic
I'm not sure I really like key runes in control decks. They're too slow in aggro matches. And they're pretty weak in control mirrors when everyone has high life totals. And they're outclassed in the mid range match ups, though I guess the mana ramp might be better than playing a centaur healer in that spot.
Here's the deck I played in the 11pm pacific time daily
3 Azorius Guildgate
4 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
4 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
2 Plains
3 Selesnya Guildgate
3 Simic Guildgate
4 Temple Garden
Creatures 10
3 Angel of Serenity
3 Armada Wurm
2 Centaur Healer
1 Gatecreeper Vine
1 Lyev Skyknight
4 Azorius Charm
2 Detention Sphere
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Selesnya Charm
1 Selesnya Keyrune
3 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Supreme Verdict
3 Syncopate
2 Urban Evolution
1 Azorius Keyrune
2 Centaur Healer
2 Detention Sphere
3 Dispel
1 Selesnya Charm
1 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Cancel
2 Urban Evolution
Played against 3 mono red decks. Went 2-0 in the first two rounds and lost in the 3rd. These games are pretty dumb. It's based on the die roll and if you can draw a verdict. Sideboard games you're more favored, but then they can still draw their sideboard cards and win. I thought I stabilized with an armada wurm but he had act of treason.
I could have played one of the games I lost differently. I azorius charm'd an ash zealot when I was at 12 life. I could have cycled the charm instead to try and draw a wrath. Or I could have charm'd a Burning-Tree Emissary, but I don't know how viable that is when the opponent has 4 cards in hand. I thought preserving my life total was fine since I could stabilize with armada wurm, but the guy had act of treason. It looks like most lists play 0-2 act of treasons, so i'm not sure if the odds are better trying to dig 1 card deeper for wrath.
I still think bant is favored vs mono red. But sometimes they nut draw on you and you don't draw a verdict.
4th round was against a naya deck with main deck keening apparitions, Gideons, Domris and assemble the legion. Game 2 I sided out all my dspheres and he drew 2 apparitions. I was able to counter turn 3 domri and turn 4 gideon, but he had turn 5 assemble. I might have been able to grind him out since he was down to 12 via shock lands, but he also had an angel for my angel. Game 3 he didn't have that sick curve so I crushed him with revelations, jaces and countered all his threats. For some reason he thought he could play 7 drops as I countered his Sylvan Primordial game 3. That deck seems like a nightmare match up since we rely on d-sphere for non creature permanents and they main deck apparitions.
So I went 3-1. A junk deck went 4-0, beating the mono red deck I lost to in round 3. Junk also seems heavily favored vs aggro.
I like the deck. I think it's the best positioned control deck since it has a good aggro match up. It also has answers to obzedat.
As for the decklist. I'm not sure about keyrunes, they're pretty underwhelming. Though they can be decent at answering planeswalkers, notably gideon. Not sure I want 4 urban evolutions. I have too many cards I side in for the control/mid range match ups, so I might go down to 3. I might want a sundering growth for assemble and opposing d-spheres. Psychic spiral is another card I might consider adding.
3 Azorius Guildgate
4 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
4 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
2 Plains
3 Selesnya Guildgate
3 Simic Guildgate
4 Temple Garden
Creatures 11
3 Angel of Serenity
3 Armada Wurm
4 Centaur Healer
1 Gatecreeper Vine
4 Azorius Charm
3 Detention Sphere
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Selesnya Charm
3 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Supreme Verdict
3 Syncopate
1 Urban Evolution
1 Detention Sphere
3 Dispel
1 Selesnya Charm
1 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Cancel
2 Urban Evolution
1 Gideon, Champion Of Justice
1 Lyev Skynight
1 Sundering growth
1 Loxodon Smiter
Went 4-2, missed top 8 by a fraction Got my entry fee back for top 16ing at least.
I faced 3 sphinx's revelation decks. Went 1-2 against them. My losses were because I got flooded and then mulled to 4 against Paul Rietzl playing for top 8. Paul kept in syncopate post board, I don't think that's correct, but w/e. The 2 losses were to UW, and my win was against the mirror. I don't think the UW match up is that bad. I'd imagine bant is slightly favored because it has armada wurms and Selesnya charms.
I also beat a junk deck that appeared to be splashing red for rakdos return. Unfortunately for him my last card I hand in hand after he cast it was a sphinx's revelation. Junk just seems super underpowered.
I only faced 1 aggro deck, r/g aggro. Seems worse than mono red, though ghor clan rampager is a blow out. He won the roll, but I was able to draw verdict and stabilize. And game 3 I drew 3 verdicts to seal the deal.
My other win was because the guy didn't show. I think that's why my breakers were so bad?
I like the deck, though sphinx's revelation mirrors are pretty annoying. I won with 1 minute on the clock in the first round.
EDIT Paul won the tourney beating the r/g aggro deck in finals
pretty sure the r/g aggro deck is this one
Using the same list as above, but now i'm cutting sundering growth for dramatic rescue. I wanted growth mostly for assemble the legion, but that card is rarely played. Rescue seems sweet if people are going to ghor clan rampage you or use dynacharge as a shock. It's like a 5th azorius charm. Heroes' reunion seems interesting, but it does nothing against skull crack.
So for sideboarding vs aggro i go
-2 armada wurms (horrible vs act of treason if they have legion loyalist, still want 1 as its good if they don't have act)
-1 angel of serenity (at least this wraths their board if they have act of treason, though you should always try to play around act. And this card lets you win with damage if they won't concede by the time you cast it)
-1 urban evolution
-1 Jace (I'd keep 4, but now that I have dramatic rescue I think jace is the weakest card. He's basically a win more card if you can tap out with him and not die, plus drawing multiples is pretty bad)
+1 d-sphere
+1 smiter
+1 skynight
+1 selesynia charm
+1 dramatic rescue
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
3 Azorius Guildgate
4 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
4 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
2 Plains
3 Selesnya Guildgate
3 Simic Guildgate
4 Temple Garden
Creatures 11
3 Angel of Serenity
3 Armada Wurm
4 Centaur Healer
1 Gatecreeper Vine
4 Azorius Charm
3 Detention Sphere
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Selesnya Charm
3 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Supreme Verdict
3 Syncopate
1 Urban Evolution
1 Detention Sphere
3 Dispel
1 Selesnya Charm
1 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Cancel
2 Urban Evolution
1 Psychic Spiral
1 Lyev Skynight
1 Dramatic Rescue
1 Loxodon Smiter
I cut gideon for a psychic spiral. Gideon is just too slow if you don't have other cheap creatures to put pressure on the opponent. Spiral is a nice win condition. It's hard to win by damage since opponents gain 20+ life off of revelations, and your creatures get removed every turn. Since I don't plan on tempoing my opponent out with precinct captains and skynights, spiral fits my game plan more. And that tempo plan UW decks have is pretty annoying, as I usually shave off 1 verdict. But it's risky for them as if they don't curve out with cheap creatures they're going to draw them late where they're pretty awful.
Azorius charm is better against aggro. And there are more aggro decks than control decks. Azorius charm stops blood rush, punishes land light hands, and is good against dynacharge. Against aggro, It's never a bad top deck where selesyna charm is. In control mirrors you can keep 2 land hands if you have an azorius charm. But I normally board down to 0-2 azorius charms in control mirrors.
Playing a 4th d-sphere over a 4th azorius charm has merit. But there are people who main deck keening apparition, naya does this, and so does UW. So i'm not in a hurry to play more d-spheres. And I always side them out against straight UW decks.
The deck has been performing well. I've 3-1'd 6 of the last 7 dailies, and 2-1-1'd the other one since I was on good terms with that opponent. I'm pretty happy with the main deck. Though the sideboard could always be improved. The smiter, skynight and spiral are all questionable.
Thanks for posting here, I find your posts very informative. In fact, your detailed posts are what pushed me over the edge to finally start trying a constructed format. I've been playing MTGO for years but mostly just draft and play in the sealed dailies.
I recently put together your bant deck and have been playing in dailies and got smashed the first two that I entered, 0-2 drop. I blame it on not knowing the deck well enough, I lost to bad decisions 2 of those games and the other games I ran out of time, but I never felt like I was in a position where I couldn't win the game. Last night I did a bit better, 2-2 losing my last 2 to mono red aggro due to horrible draws and Royals BWR list.
The only decks that I have played that I felt like I have no idea how to play against are the B/R/W control decks, I just have no idea how to board against them. I played against Royal and game 1 he keyruned into radkos return for 3 into radkos return for 4 and emptied my hand and I couldn't find my only maindeck answer to odzebat before I died. I am not sure quite how to sideboard, I -4 supreme verdict, -2 azorious charm, +2 selesnya charm, + 3 cancel, +1 sphynx revelation. Is this a good sideboard plan? How would you recommend I change the sideboard/strategize for this matchup. My thoughts would be to hold counters up early to protect from radkos return until you can develop your board and hold counter magic up at the same time. Any suggestions to improve this matchup?
The bant deck, and control decks in general have lots of play to them. So you will make incorrect decisions when starting out. Though my success in the first 7 dailies i've played was due to the fact that i've drawn a fair share of timely verdicts, and white sources to cast them. The bulk of my wins come against aggro decks where i'm about 75% against them. Control and midrange on the other hand are about 50%. I'm still not quite sure how to win against other revelation decks, which is why i have psychic spiral in the board. Control and midrange are on the rise where as aggro is on the decline so winning games in the near future is definitely harder. Also when I started playing the format was relatively new, so people didn't know what they're doing. Now most people know how to play around cards and how to sideboard correctly, so being new to the format you're at a disadvantage till you get more games under your belt.
As for the BRW (black boros) deck, i haven't faced it enough to know the intricacies of the match up. That's mostly because I haven't played much block lately, not because I've managed to dodge getting paired against it or that it's not heavily played. I think Black Boros is starting to become popular enough that you want more smiters in the board, and possibly 4 syncopates main. After losing to royal playing for packs here's my 75. The main deck is the same, i've tweaked the sideboard.
3 Azorius Guildgate
4 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
4 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
2 Plains
3 Selesnya Guildgate
3 Simic Guildgate
4 Temple Garden
Creatures 11
3 Angel of Serenity
3 Armada Wurm
4 Centaur Healer
1 Gatecreeper Vine
4 Azorius Charm
3 Detention Sphere
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Selesnya Charm
3 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Supreme Verdict
3 Syncopate
1 Urban Evolution
1 Detention Sphere
3 Dispel
1 Selesnya Charm
1 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Cancel
2 Urban Evolution
1 Psychic Spiral
3 Loxodon Smiter
Some of my wins vs decks that have rakdos's return are by me getting free smiters into play. Smiter lets you tap out and not get too punished by rakdos's return.
There's also the option of moving a verdict or centaur healer from the main to the board, and adding a 4th syncopate main. But to do that you'd have to cut a card from the sideboard, probably a detention sphere or an urban evolution.
I like most of that plan. Supreme verdict is terrible versus their deck of haste creatures and keyrunes. Though it is awkward if they play turn 3 reckoner. Azorius charm is always a fine card to side out to bring in more impactful cards. Selesnya charm is great vs obzedat and so is cancel.
The card I question is revelation. If these decks are going to jam 4 slaughter games, I don't know how good revelation is. Since this deck has access to urban evolution you might just want to play 3 revelations. Now they could not draw slaughter games, or they could not board in 4, so revelation could have been better there than evolution. But that is my thinking on the matter which could be incorrect.
Also you really should have 2-3 smiters in your sideboard.
You can also watch royal's stream to see how his deck plays against control.
I haven't scanned to see if he plays bant (besides when he played me), here's him playing against UW:
http://www.twitch.tv/royalmtgo/b/376154815?t=6m16s
Thanks for responding to my post and sharing your thoughts on the matter. I agree with your reccommendation on running more smiters, I don't have any in my 75 right now. Now to figure out what to cut though. I will probably end up running the exact same list of you except running 1 more selesnyia charm in the side at the expense of the psychic spiral specifically for obzedat because I really haven't found a use for the spiral. I also want to find room for deadbridge goliath in the side. I want to be able to diversify my threats a bit more against slaughter games because they almost always either name Armada Wurm or Angel first. Also, deadbridge would be huge against those decks dodging most of their removal as well as blocking obzedat profitably. Scavenge onto anything and the only thing they have that will be able to deal with it is dreadbore. My only worry is that this would shift the deck away from a control build to a more midrange and that losing those extra sideboard slots would hurt too much versus other matchups.
In my experience (however small) the bant deck seems favored against u/w because we have just as many counters, more big creatures and more draw than they do. We also have more ways to exile their angels than they have to exile ours, so we win angel wars as well. It runs well against the junk decks as well, with Vraska and obzedat being their only decent plays against us. The aggro decks matchup is pretty easy as long as we hit our colors and have 2 plays within the first 4 turns of the game. Although that is more if's than the other matchups.
Your reccomendation on not siding in the revelation definately has merit, and is why the smiters and maybe deadbridge would give us more play than them early and save our counters for Aurelia/obzedat/radkos return.
The card that's on the chopping block for me is urban evolution, at least its inclusion in the main deck. The time to get the most value out of urban evolution is on turn 5-6 when the extra land really pays off. However that means you're tapping out which isn't a good strategy for this deck. Playing it on turn 15 is mediocre, especially i'm only playing 3 sphinx's revelation. So it might be better as the 4th revelation or 4th syncopate.
Urban evolution is awesome in the sideboard games however, as it can't be dispel'd and it helps you come back vs rakdos's return and slaughter games.
I think smiters are probably enough against black boros. They should be siding out mortars as it doesn't hit very many targets. Or if you wanted to you could probably play a 7 drop flyer in place of a smiter, diluvian primordial, Archon of the Triumvirate,