Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
Played in my first DE with this deck today and got soulcrushed for the 2-2 in the last round. Had trouble against UG in the last round... what do you think the deck's best matchups are? The worst?
Biggest difference between my build and this is I ran a Hythonia MD, and didn't have any Ashioks in the board.
Yea. I don't think that's a typical Mono B build, but its got most of the components.
The funny thing is if you go over to the UG thread they are asking how to beat Mono B lol.
This is a mid to late game deck so anything that goes more than 6 turns is normally solid. What was your other loss?
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
My other loss was RG Ramp. I beat him Game 1 and then Game 2 I was pretty low on life, but could have stabilized had he drawn anything other than Magma Jet, but he drew Magma Jet. I don't recall exactly what happened Game 3.
The more I think about it, I am ready to take Hythonia out in favor of a second copy of the Overlord. I guess I feel like, even if they remove the Overlord right away, you are still likely getting some value, even though the best case scenario on Hythonia may be better.
I"m also not sure about Erebos.. I found myself siding him (her?) out quite a lot. Obviously I don't have the experience with the deck that others might and that's why I am here!
I like 2 overlord. I'm not really sure about the board because I haven't played the deck yet, but I'm most curious about the Viper's Kiss (if they come in for RG, perhaps MD?) and I'm interested in the Returned Phalanx that even XuXa have started running
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
I'd prefer viper's kiss in the main over pharika's cure, cure is way too narrow (only optimal against heroic aggro, which is a small part of the meta). I think I'd also like a 4/2 split of agent and nighthowler (in favour of agent), rather than 3/3. Apart from that, the list seems really solid.
Re: returned phalanx, what does that card actually do? I'd much rather the 4th eidolon before the first one of that, and phalanx doesn't do basically anything against RG. At most it seems like a (fairly poor) sideboard card against heroic aggro.
How do you guys approach the rg ramp matchup? I am having difficulties with them. It seems that, I get set up into the late game, handled their first 2-3 threats, and then they just keep pulling threats before I can turn the deck around to get to the killing them phase. I have had some success with a nighthowled agent of fates draw, as well as just drawing all the removals, but I lose way more often to the deck than I feel like I should.
I plan on bringing the vipers kiss into the main, and in the rg ramp matchup, I have generally been bringing out whips and cure for eidolon and the gorgon's. I really just want another doom blade in the deck I think, but sadly there are none available.
Made a 4-2 record on rounds (40+ players) and made my way to the finals where i split against a BWR which i lost before in rounds.
Overall the deck feels great, I faced RG Ramp 5 times and went 4-1 against it, being my only loss against it in the last round but i faced the same player in the top 8 and won. The match feels very tight and sometimes unwinnable when they have multiple stormbreath dragons in hand and no downfalls in yours, since the agent of fates+nighthowler/eidolon combo its of no use because they just sac a mana dork.
Other than that, i faced no heroic decks and the same BWR two times, the other deck was some kind of UB which i had no problems with.
After this and some other testing I think pharika's cure is no longer needed at least on the main, also i have great doubts with hythonia but still giving it a last shot. On the side im taking out the 3 returned phalanx and transforming them onto pharika's cure, these are the main changes and my next list looks like this:
I only run a miser's Hythonia, but what on earth to put in if you dumped her. A 3rd Overlord?
I'm re-reading Rescue from the underworld and wondering why they didn't lower the mana cost and make it an interesting sorcery. Right now it's just EoT cast, boom.
I just noticed no MD Disciples. You don't miss them, or hard to tell because you didn't play vs blue?
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
Well, there are times where i wish I had an overlord in hand than a hythonian, i mean, i know i would be running 3 cards of 7 cmc but the only times where i found hythonian relevant is when i can activate her mounstrosity which is 8.
about the disciples i dont know for sure, the only times when i have faced a blue deck it hasnt been that relevant, 4 thoughseize main and 2 disciples side seems ok vs blue based decks, BUT, the only reason i would try a build with disciples in the main is if monoblack gets to be the most dominant deck, right now gruul seems to be in that role.
In a flash update from my last post it seems that monoB its increasing popularity, couple of tourneys, 7 rounds total, 4 of them vs monoB and the rest Gruul, not a good night 3-4 record losing to mono B two times.
Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
How do you guys approach the rg ramp matchup? I am having difficulties with them. It seems that, I get set up into the late game, handled their first 2-3 threats, and then they just keep pulling threats before I can turn the deck around to get to the killing them phase. I have had some success with a nighthowled agent of fates draw, as well as just drawing all the removals, but I lose way more often to the deck than I feel like I should.
....
I plan on bringing the vipers kiss into the main, and in the rg ramp matchup, I have generally been bringing out whips and cure for eidolon and the gorgon's. I really just want another doom blade in the deck I think, but sadly there are none available.
I've been wondering how to best SB against RG ramp too. Here is my list:
I was taking out Cure, Whip, Erebos, and Read the Bones for Disciple, Gorgon, Howler, and Kiss. My idea was that Cure doesn't kill enough, and I took out the other cards because all I want to do is either be developing my board or disrupting theirs. I like the extra Disciples to get any monsters stranded in their hand, and the Howler is good just as another body or Agent of Fates trigger.
But then I got to thinking that maybe Gorgon is too slow against them, and it can't kill their Dragons without becoming monstrous. And maybe the Gray Merchant/Whip combo is good enough to win? And maybe Read the Bones is good for digging for answers. And Hythonia and/or 2 Overlords may be too slow as well.
I am now trying taking out Cure, Erebos, Hythonia, and 1 Overlord, for Kiss, Disciple, and Nighthowler. Undecided whether or not that's correct still, though. Sometimes Whip is amazing but other times it feels like a dead draw. Then again, it's not like Gorgon in Whip's place is always better.
Gorgon 100% needs to stay in. It's one of your answers to polis crusher, and also deals with arbor colossus/polukranos. You absolutely need it. You also want hythonia for similar reasons, and it has bigger upside.
Cure obviously comes out, beyond that things get tricky. I agree that read the bones isn't great, it's too slow and the life loss is relevant - however it is better than erebos. GR will be bringing in 2-3 artifact destruction, so I'm not sure whip has any value. It's a 4 mana play which doesn't affect the board, and if they spend 2 mana to kill it and dome you for 2 then you're pretty miserable. I don't think you want 4 disciples either. It's a dead topdeck in a matchup where you need every card to be impactful, and you'll also frequently be casting it for only 2 devotion if they've used burn on your early deathtouchers. Two is the most I'd want, you can't wast too much time casting 1/3s for 4 in the m/u. In the list you have above, I'd probably go:
+3 viper's kiss
+3 keepsake gorgon
-2 Pharika's cure
-2 Read the Bones
-2 Erebos
I wouldn't take nightnhowler's out. It's not great, but it does give your discard additional value and howler bestowed on agent is one of your best win-cons if they don't have the burn.
I don't think black is favoured in this matchup until it gets more than 4 removal spells though.
THS Block Constructed Premier #6210831 on 11/04/2013
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
15 Swamp
4 Temple of Deceit
1 Temple of Mystery
2 Temple of Silence
2 Abhorrent Overlord
3 Agent of the Fates
4 Baleful Eidolon
3 Disciple of Phenax
2 Erebos, God of the Dead
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
3 Nighthowler
4 Read the Bones
4 Thoughtseize
2 Whip of Erebos
4 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
3 Dark Betrayal
1 Disciple of Phenax
1 Hythonia the Cruel
4 Pharika's Cure
2 Viper's Kiss
Biggest difference between my build and this is I ran a Hythonia MD, and didn't have any Ashioks in the board.
The funny thing is if you go over to the UG thread they are asking how to beat Mono B lol.
This is a mid to late game deck so anything that goes more than 6 turns is normally solid. What was your other loss?
The more I think about it, I am ready to take Hythonia out in favor of a second copy of the Overlord. I guess I feel like, even if they remove the Overlord right away, you are still likely getting some value, even though the best case scenario on Hythonia may be better.
I"m also not sure about Erebos.. I found myself siding him (her?) out quite a lot. Obviously I don't have the experience with the deck that others might and that's why I am here!
60 cards
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
19 Swamp
3 Temple of Deceit
1 Temple of Silence
2 Abhorrent Overlord
3 Agent of the Fates
3 Baleful Eidolon
2 Disciple of Phenax
2 Erebos, God of the Dead
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1 Hythonia the Cruel
3 Nighthowler
2 Pharika's Cure
3 Read the Bones
4 Thoughtseize
2 Whip of Erebos
4 Dark Betrayal
2 Disciple of Phenax
3 Keepsake Gorgon
1 Nighthowler
2 Pharika's Cure
3 Viper's Kiss
I like 2 overlord. I'm not really sure about the board because I haven't played the deck yet, but I'm most curious about the Viper's Kiss (if they come in for RG, perhaps MD?) and I'm interested in the Returned Phalanx that even XuXa have started running
Re: returned phalanx, what does that card actually do? I'd much rather the 4th eidolon before the first one of that, and phalanx doesn't do basically anything against RG. At most it seems like a (fairly poor) sideboard card against heroic aggro.
For reference here is my list:
3 baleful eidolon
4 agent of fates
4 nighthowler
4 gray merchant of asphodel
2 abhorrent overlord
2 erebos, god of the dead
Spells:
4 thoughtseize
4 read the bones
4 heroes downfall
2 whip of erebos
2 pharika's cure
1 nykthos
4 temple of deceit
4 islands
16 swamps
2 annul
2 vipers kiss
3 keepsake gorgon
3 disciple of Phenax
1 baleful eidolon
4 dark betrayal
I plan on bringing the vipers kiss into the main, and in the rg ramp matchup, I have generally been bringing out whips and cure for eidolon and the gorgon's. I really just want another doom blade in the deck I think, but sadly there are none available.
2 Abhorrent Overlord
3 Agent of the Fates
3 Baleful Eidolon
1 Disciple of Phenax
2 Erebos, God of the Dead
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
2 Hythonia the Cruel
4 Nighthowler
4 Hero's Downfall
3 Pharika's Cure
3 Read the Bones
3 Thoughtseize
2 Whip of Erebos
Lands
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
18 Swamp
4 Temple of Silence
3 Dark Betrayal
2 Disciple of Phenax
1 Mogis's Marauder
1 Rescue from the Underworld
3 Returned Phalanx
1 Thoughtseize
4 Viper's Kiss
Made a 4-2 record on rounds (40+ players) and made my way to the finals where i split against a BWR which i lost before in rounds.
Overall the deck feels great, I faced RG Ramp 5 times and went 4-1 against it, being my only loss against it in the last round but i faced the same player in the top 8 and won. The match feels very tight and sometimes unwinnable when they have multiple stormbreath dragons in hand and no downfalls in yours, since the agent of fates+nighthowler/eidolon combo its of no use because they just sac a mana dork.
Other than that, i faced no heroic decks and the same BWR two times, the other deck was some kind of UB which i had no problems with.
After this and some other testing I think pharika's cure is no longer needed at least on the main, also i have great doubts with hythonia but still giving it a last shot. On the side im taking out the 3 returned phalanx and transforming them onto pharika's cure, these are the main changes and my next list looks like this:
2 Abhorrent Overlord
4 Agent of the Fates
4 Baleful Eidolon
2 Erebos, God of the Dead
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
2 Hythonia the Cruel
4 Nighthowler
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Read the Bones
4 Thoughtseize
2 Whip of Erebos
Lands
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
18 Swamp
4 Temple of Silence
2 Dark Betrayal
2 Disciple of Phenax
1 Mogis's Marauder
1 Rescue from the Underworld
2 Pharika's cure
3 Keepsake Gorgon
4 Viper's Kiss
Let me know what you think! taking it for test tonight
I'm re-reading Rescue from the underworld and wondering why they didn't lower the mana cost and make it an interesting sorcery. Right now it's just EoT cast, boom.
I just noticed no MD Disciples. You don't miss them, or hard to tell because you didn't play vs blue?
about the disciples i dont know for sure, the only times when i have faced a blue deck it hasnt been that relevant, 4 thoughseize main and 2 disciples side seems ok vs blue based decks, BUT, the only reason i would try a build with disciples in the main is if monoblack gets to be the most dominant deck, right now gruul seems to be in that role.
I've been wondering how to best SB against RG ramp too. Here is my list:
2 Abhorrent Overlord
3 Agent of the Fates
3 Baleful Eidolon
2 Disciple of Phenax
2 Erebos, God of the Dead
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1 Hythonia the Cruel
3 Nighthowler
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Pharika's Cure
3 Read the Bones
4 Thoughtseize
2 Whip of Erebos
Lands
19 Swamp
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
3 Temple of Deceit
1 Temple of Silence
4 Dark Betrayal
2 Disciple of Phenax
3 Keepsake Gorgon
1 Nighthowler
2 Pharika's Cure
3 Viper's Kiss
I was taking out Cure, Whip, Erebos, and Read the Bones for Disciple, Gorgon, Howler, and Kiss. My idea was that Cure doesn't kill enough, and I took out the other cards because all I want to do is either be developing my board or disrupting theirs. I like the extra Disciples to get any monsters stranded in their hand, and the Howler is good just as another body or Agent of Fates trigger.
But then I got to thinking that maybe Gorgon is too slow against them, and it can't kill their Dragons without becoming monstrous. And maybe the Gray Merchant/Whip combo is good enough to win? And maybe Read the Bones is good for digging for answers. And Hythonia and/or 2 Overlords may be too slow as well.
I am now trying taking out Cure, Erebos, Hythonia, and 1 Overlord, for Kiss, Disciple, and Nighthowler. Undecided whether or not that's correct still, though. Sometimes Whip is amazing but other times it feels like a dead draw. Then again, it's not like Gorgon in Whip's place is always better.
Thoughts?
Cure obviously comes out, beyond that things get tricky. I agree that read the bones isn't great, it's too slow and the life loss is relevant - however it is better than erebos. GR will be bringing in 2-3 artifact destruction, so I'm not sure whip has any value. It's a 4 mana play which doesn't affect the board, and if they spend 2 mana to kill it and dome you for 2 then you're pretty miserable. I don't think you want 4 disciples either. It's a dead topdeck in a matchup where you need every card to be impactful, and you'll also frequently be casting it for only 2 devotion if they've used burn on your early deathtouchers. Two is the most I'd want, you can't wast too much time casting 1/3s for 4 in the m/u. In the list you have above, I'd probably go:
+3 viper's kiss
+3 keepsake gorgon
-2 Pharika's cure
-2 Read the Bones
-2 Erebos
I wouldn't take nightnhowler's out. It's not great, but it does give your discard additional value and howler bestowed on agent is one of your best win-cons if they don't have the burn.
I don't think black is favoured in this matchup until it gets more than 4 removal spells though.