Hi there, Milling is not that popular and hard as hell to pull through in MP, but I have a blast with the mechanic. I'm currently using Phenax as Commander since I think he is the most efficient miller. But do I tend to be a little all over the place when building decks...Maybe there's a bit lack of direction here...so opinions are very welcomed please.
First and foremost, I'm pretty sure you should be posting here for deck assistance.
I've played around with mill quite a bit and in my experience, it's inconsistent at worst and obnoxious at best. Most importantly, an all-in mill strategy tends to fall flat in multiplayer unless you're running combo. I see you've got Mindcrank and Duskmantle Guildmage (as well as two conditional tutors, in the form of Disciple of Deceit and Dimir Infiltrator). And Eater of the Dead with your Commander, I suppose.
You've got the benefit of an indestructible Commander that cares about toughness. I feel like there's a number of less efficient mill cards you should just replace with either more Walls/Defenders or interaction (I'm looking at cards like Profane Memento, Decimator Web, Belltower Sphinx, Szadek, Lord of Secrets, the Ingest creatures, etc). You've got a few cards that don't feel like they have much relation to milling - Invisible Stalker and Dauthi Slayer stuck out to me in particular.
I'd recommend more Walls, maybe something like an Intruder Alarm would be insane for your deck with a higher creature count. Someone plays a creature, untap all yours, mill for another X cards? Seems good. Especially vs. token decks (multiple 'untap all creatures' triggers on the stack). Graveyard reanimation to give you more midgame.
I'd recommend more Walls, maybe something like an Intruder Alarm
Yeah, I thought about removing Szadek several times. And now I will. I have Invisible Stalker and Dauthi layer mostly because of Trepanation Blade. Probably not the greatest idea when they rely on the existence of a sole other card, but they do allow going for damage instead of just mill... I'll remove some ingests definitely ... Intruder Alarm would be quite amazing yeah!! Have to get that one.
Trepanation Blade is a fun card, but I've struggled to fit it into decks where milling was the primary goal. Maybe it's just my opinion, but it fits better when you're using mill to accomplish another goal (like in Lazav, Dimir Mastermind or Wrexial, the Risen Deep for instance).
In the same vein as Intruder Alarm though, and something that slipped my mind last night, would be Paradox Engine. With a low enough curve, you could mill an insane amount in a turn. Tap to mill X, cast a one or two drop, rinse and repeat.
And lastly, something I forgot to consider: graveyard hate. You should probably run a minimum of it. Graveyard shenanigans are commonplace in Commander in my experience, so you need something to prevent opponents from taking advantage of it. Or countering an Eldrazi Titan's trigger to shuffle their graveyard back in; your mortal enemy in this case. Cards like Leyline of the Void, Relic of Progenitus, Tormod's Crypt, etc. This depends on your meta/playgroup though, so if it isn't a problem, don't worry.
You're probably right about Trepanation Blade...I'll try it around after I make some changes and see how it goes... And I checked that thread, some really good ideas there,I'll use some, thank you.
I think you need to be running more removal. My Oona mill deck is running 9 mass-removal spells and 10 counters/bounce spells and it barely feels like enough to survive long enough to mill a few people out. In your current deck configuration, I only see 1 mass-removal spell, 3 other removal spells, and no counters. I would take a hard look at running more removal first and foremost.
I would also suggest some creatures that have a high toughness that can also mill your opponents when Phenax isn't around and/or in addition to tapping for Phenax. Hedron Crab and Riddlekeeper are two possibilities.
There are also some other good possibilities for milling cards for free turn after turn. Dreamborn Muse, Crumbling Sanctuary, and Mesmeric Orb are all potential cards that can mill tons of cards per mana invested.
I also agree with Grimoire that you need some more graveyard removal. Bojuka Bog and Scavenger Grounds should be run at a minimum, but having something like a Withered Wretch or Nihil Spellbomb would go a long way towards making sure you don't lose to an Eldrazi.
And one last thing about playing a deck like this; you will likely not be able to mill out more than two opponents unless one of those players is drawing tons of cards on their own. Wit this in mind, concentrate your milling on 1-2 players with the highest life totals and worry about any damage you deal on the other players with lower life totals. That way, you get help killing certain players with damage and you can focus your milling efforts (where you will likely not get any help from your opponents) on just a few players where you have a much higher potential of actually succeeding with the mill plan. When I win with my Oona deck, it is usually because I milled out two players and killed the other player with flyers (Oona, Faeries tokens, Extractor Demon) or a big beater (Consuming Aberration, Sire of Stagnation, Fleet Swallower), so the key is just figuring out which opponent is one which plan and knowing when to shift gears.
Thank you for your input Forgotten One. I usually only play against 2 friends, very casually, every so often...but that said, I do like to win! hahaha
OMG(!) how in the world have I never known about Riddlekeeper??!! That's a must have for me. And I was indeed planning to add Hedron Crab yeah. And I have a Withered Wretch somewhere so I'll add him too. Ok, I'll look into more removal as soon as I finish trying out some other changes (meaning: as soon as I convince myself to take Trepanation Blade and the unblockables out)
I've actually been looking at quite some of your Commander decks specially Progenitus' and Derevi's. And I just noticed you have a Brago King's Commander much in line with what I want, I'll borrow some inspiration from it! hehe
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1 Phenax, God of Deception
Lands
1 Choked Estuary
1 Dimir Aqueduct
1 Dimir Guildgate
1 Dismal Backwater
16 Island
1 Jwar Isle Refuge
1 Nephalia Drownyard
1 Sunken Hollow
16 Swamp
1 Temple of Deceit
Artifacts
1 Altar of the Brood
1 Decimator Web
1 Feldon's Cane
1 Howling Mine
1 Keening Stone
1 Mindcrank
1 Mirari
1 Profane Memento
1 Sword of the Animist
1 Trepanation Blade
Enchantments
1 Archmage Ascension
1 Dictate of Kruphix
1 Freed from the Real
1 Jace's Erasure
1 Memory Erosion
1 Sphinx's Tutelage
1 Archive Trap
1 Grisly Spectacle
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Psychic Spiral
Sorceries
1 Gild
1 In Garruk's Wake
1 Increasing Confusion
1 Mind Funeral
1 Mind Grind
1 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Startled Awake
1 Traumatize
Planeswalkers
1 Jace, Memory Adept
Creatures
1 Belltower Sphinx
1 Benthic Infiltrator
1 Clone
1 Consuming Aberration
1 Dauthi Slayer
1 Dimir Doppelganger
1 Dimir Infiltrator
1 Disciple of Deceit
1 Duskmantle Guildmage
1 Eater of the Dead
1 Fathom Feeder
1 Geist of the Archives
1 Geralf's Mindcrusher
1 Geth, Lord of the Vault
1 Graveblade Marauder
1 Hover Barrier
1 Invisible Stalker
1 King Macar, the Gold-Cursed
1 Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
1 Manic Scribe
1 Mirko Vosk, Mind Drinker
1 Mist Intruder
1 Nemesis of Reason
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
1 Possessed Aven
1 Servant of Tymaret
1 Silent Arbiter
1 Szadek, Lord of Secrets
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Wall of Frost
I've played around with mill quite a bit and in my experience, it's inconsistent at worst and obnoxious at best. Most importantly, an all-in mill strategy tends to fall flat in multiplayer unless you're running combo. I see you've got Mindcrank and Duskmantle Guildmage (as well as two conditional tutors, in the form of Disciple of Deceit and Dimir Infiltrator). And Eater of the Dead with your Commander, I suppose.
You've got the benefit of an indestructible Commander that cares about toughness. I feel like there's a number of less efficient mill cards you should just replace with either more Walls/Defenders or interaction (I'm looking at cards like Profane Memento, Decimator Web, Belltower Sphinx, Szadek, Lord of Secrets, the Ingest creatures, etc). You've got a few cards that don't feel like they have much relation to milling - Invisible Stalker and Dauthi Slayer stuck out to me in particular.
I'd recommend more Walls, maybe something like an Intruder Alarm would be insane for your deck with a higher creature count. Someone plays a creature, untap all yours, mill for another X cards? Seems good. Especially vs. token decks (multiple 'untap all creatures' triggers on the stack). Graveyard reanimation to give you more midgame.
Also, new card coming up in Core Set 2019: Psychic Corrosion. Unlike Sphinx's Tutelage, it mills all opponents on each draw.
Damn it, thank you. I did read the forum's guiding threads but was mildly confused...and seems I can't change it now though...
Yeah, I thought about removing Szadek several times. And now I will. I have Invisible Stalker and Dauthi layer mostly because of Trepanation Blade. Probably not the greatest idea when they rely on the existence of a sole other card, but they do allow going for damage instead of just mill... I'll remove some ingests definitely ... Intruder Alarm would be quite amazing yeah!! Have to get that one.
Yes, I'll get my hands on that one
[Thanks]
Trepanation Blade is a fun card, but I've struggled to fit it into decks where milling was the primary goal. Maybe it's just my opinion, but it fits better when you're using mill to accomplish another goal (like in Lazav, Dimir Mastermind or Wrexial, the Risen Deep for instance).
In the same vein as Intruder Alarm though, and something that slipped my mind last night, would be Paradox Engine. With a low enough curve, you could mill an insane amount in a turn. Tap to mill X, cast a one or two drop, rinse and repeat.
And lastly, something I forgot to consider: graveyard hate. You should probably run a minimum of it. Graveyard shenanigans are commonplace in Commander in my experience, so you need something to prevent opponents from taking advantage of it. Or countering an Eldrazi Titan's trigger to shuffle their graveyard back in; your mortal enemy in this case. Cards like Leyline of the Void, Relic of Progenitus, Tormod's Crypt, etc. This depends on your meta/playgroup though, so if it isn't a problem, don't worry.
Here's a link to the Phenax Primer over in Multiplayer decklists. I'd dig around there for more ideas.
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You're probably right about Trepanation Blade...I'll try it around after I make some changes and see how it goes... And I checked that thread, some really good ideas there,I'll use some, thank you.
I would also suggest some creatures that have a high toughness that can also mill your opponents when Phenax isn't around and/or in addition to tapping for Phenax. Hedron Crab and Riddlekeeper are two possibilities.
There are also some other good possibilities for milling cards for free turn after turn. Dreamborn Muse, Crumbling Sanctuary, and Mesmeric Orb are all potential cards that can mill tons of cards per mana invested.
I also agree with Grimoire that you need some more graveyard removal. Bojuka Bog and Scavenger Grounds should be run at a minimum, but having something like a Withered Wretch or Nihil Spellbomb would go a long way towards making sure you don't lose to an Eldrazi.
And one last thing about playing a deck like this; you will likely not be able to mill out more than two opponents unless one of those players is drawing tons of cards on their own. Wit this in mind, concentrate your milling on 1-2 players with the highest life totals and worry about any damage you deal on the other players with lower life totals. That way, you get help killing certain players with damage and you can focus your milling efforts (where you will likely not get any help from your opponents) on just a few players where you have a much higher potential of actually succeeding with the mill plan. When I win with my Oona deck, it is usually because I milled out two players and killed the other player with flyers (Oona, Faeries tokens, Extractor Demon) or a big beater (Consuming Aberration, Sire of Stagnation, Fleet Swallower), so the key is just figuring out which opponent is one which plan and knowing when to shift gears.
Anyway, good luck with the deck.
OMG(!) how in the world have I never known about Riddlekeeper??!! That's a must have for me. And I was indeed planning to add Hedron Crab yeah. And I have a Withered Wretch somewhere so I'll add him too. Ok, I'll look into more removal as soon as I finish trying out some other changes (meaning: as soon as I convince myself to take Trepanation Blade and the unblockables out)
I've actually been looking at quite some of your Commander decks specially Progenitus' and Derevi's. And I just noticed you have a Brago King's Commander much in line with what I want, I'll borrow some inspiration from it! hehe