Have you ever been told that red is weak in commander? I know I have, plenty of times.
This is usually how I respond:
To many people, the above cards represent a clean slate, a new beginning to the game. I propose a different idea: the above cards are highly abusable, able to create incredibly lopsided board states where you are the only person with permanents in play. If your deck is built right, these cards are 1-card win conditions.
So looking at some of red's most powerful tools, there are a few commanders that come to mind by which you can build around these cards. These commanders need to be able to protect your board in some way, while also providing utility on their own. To that end, there are a few that I consider top-tier or near top-tier.
The first, and I will argue one of the best:
Slobad does a lot of things. For the unaware, Slobad works like this: sacrifice half your artifacts to make the other half indestructible, then make a funeral pyre out of your opponent's boards. Easy, simple, quick, effective.
So there are a lot of destructive combos this deck can utilize. But I think the first thing you should notice is the high planeswalker count. Decree of Annihilation and its ilk don't destroy planeswalkers. Simple enough- blow up the world, leave a walker or two behind.
Secondly, Mycosynth Lattice does some busted stuff here. This plus Vandalblast and Scrap Mastery are basically one-sided boardwipes. If you throw Nevinyrral's Disk into the mix with Slobad, you blow up your opponents' permanents while saving your best few.
Staff of Domination looks a little out of place, but it goes infinite with Metalworker and Myr Welder, as long as your Worker produces 6 mana, you can untap Worker for 3, and untap Staff for 1, generating 2 mana each time. With Welder, you can imprint the Staff onto Welder along with any artifact that taps for 2 so it reads: 1 untap Welder, tap: add 2 to your mana pool, allowing you to draw your whole deck and kill them with Staff of Nin pings after imprinting it on Welder.
Flameshadow Conjuring/Minion Reflector + Worldgorger Dragon= Infinite ETB triggers/LTB triggers (damage with Warstorm Surge effects and Valakut, the Motlen Pinnacle)
So this one is a little more complex and not exactly obvious. What you do is tutor for Worldgorger Dragon with Conjuring or Reflector in play with at least one or two mana floating (to activate Flameshadow/Reflector later). Two triggers go on the stack: Worldgorger's ETB and Flameshadow/Reflector's trigger. Pay the mana for Flameshadow/Reflector, creating a token copy of Worldgorger. The tokens exile trigger will resolve before the original, exiling all your permanents except for the Worldgorger Dragon token. Then the original Worldgorger Dragon's exile trigger will resolve, exiling the token and bringing all your permanents back, lands untapped, with Flameshadow/Minion Reflector seeing Worldgorger Dragon entering the battlefield again, effectively putting you back at square one, except you have your lands untapped and more ETB triggers to resolve.
The easiest way to set up this combo is to tutor Scourge of Valkas at the end of your opponents' turn, as Zirilan only exiles at the beginning of the next end step, allowing you to keep the Valkas in play for your turn. Then on your turn, tutor out Worldgorger Dragon with Zirilan and go ham.
Remember: All of the artifacts that combo with these dragons can be effectively tutored out with Hoarding Dragon. Use this to your advantage!
This doesn't even account for the easy wins you get from tutoring out Worldgorger with your Obliterate/ Decree of Annihilation etc. on the stack (just be careful because if your opponents time their removal right they can exile your entire board).
That's it for me! Do you play Mono-R? What has been competitive for you?
The former deck is mostly cards that protect Jaya from her own Inferno, cards that recur themselves, and cards that don't mind being discarded. Being able to destroy a blue permanent on demand makes players with blue commanders have second thoughts about playing their general, and the ability to Incinerate each turn cycle keeps a lot of utility creatures off the board, too. Once I hit 7 mana and give Jaya protection from red/indestructible/prevent noncombat damage to her, an Inferno every turn tends to end the game pretty quickly, even moreso if Jaya has also been given lifelink. Distorting Lens turns Jaya's first ability into Vindicate.
The latter deck is a one-trick pony storm combo deck, although there is a lot of redundancy for the combo pieces. To go infinite requires:
I can also substitute the cost decreaser for making 2 tokens on cast/etb.
With all 3, I've got infinite storm count, and then I can win with Grapeshot, Purphoros, God of the Forge, etc.
Without #1 or #2, I've got +1 storm for R
Without #1 and #2, I've got +1 storm for 1R
Without any of #1-3, but with a free sac outlet that doesn't produce R, I've for +1 storm for 1RR (or RR if the sac outlet is Ashnod's Altar)
I wouldn't say that building mono-red would empty your wallet. It has a couple of expensive cards, but It's not like building a proper 3+ color manabase with fetches, shocks, etc.
It's also plenty powerful without mass land destruction now that WotC is giving red actual card draw.
I will say that holy hell when did Wheel of Fortune become $120 at the cheapest? &*#@ this reserved list stuff. That's absurd. It's not like Gaea's Cradle that you really don't need outside of elfball or tokens, but when Commander STAPLE cards end up $120 at the cheapest is when I start getting po'ed.
Ryusei, the Falling Star leads my Mono-R deck. In fairness though I only built it because I consider that card to be my first MTG card on a technicality (I started playing MTG just by walking into the Champions of Kamigawa Prerelease and since I can't remember my pool all that well, the Prerelease foil is hence by default the representative).
Thanks to the gem of a card called Repercussion I could try to make my Commander have a wincon that's not voltron, but admittedly I don't remember the plan actually working out spectacularly. Most of my more memorable victories involve Heartless Hidetsugu (and fittingly, since Hidetsugu was a force to be reckoned with in the novels), including one where I Hidetsugu dealt a solid 20+ damage to me but only 2 or 3 damage to my opponent (it's been a while I can't recall the exact number), but it was all worth it because Kumano, Master Yamabushi was there with sufficient mana to finish the job. Yes, that deck turned out to be way more Kamigawa then I initially thought it would be (all basics in that deck are foil Kamigawa Mountains to top it off).
Red is by no means weak, but admittedly it tends to linger at the ends of the power spectrum, where either its interaction/gameplay will either turn out to be underwhelming, or it does things too well (many game-winning-combos can easily be done in Mono-R, or even the one-sided boardwipes mentioned in the opening post tend to just tilt the game completely) that it can be argued to go the full circle and land back in "boring". I consciously chose to select the hard route for my deck (I could easily just stuff the deck with game-winning combos, and Godo even fits the flavor) but I believe that choice makes the games I win feel more memorable.
I suppose the same could apply to the entire format-at-large, but Mono-R surprisingly presents a scaled-down version of the exact same concept because of the way it functions in the format.
How is mono-red at all expensive? It might be the cheapest color identity in the format. And even with "mean" cards it's still worst or second worst color pretty easily, just not by as much. Still fun though. I've run a decent number of them but zirilan is easily my fav. Link in sig to my decklists.
I will say that holy hell when did Wheel of Fortune become $120 at the cheapest? &*#@ this reserved list stuff. That's absurd. It's not like Gaea's Cradle that you really don't need outside of elfball or tokens, but when Commander STAPLE cards end up $120 at the cheapest is when I start getting po'ed.
i'd consider cradle much better and more versatile than wheel. Anything that refills my opponents hands id avoid like the plague unless I'm playing some specific sort of combo, which I'd consider pretty niche. Cradle is worth it for basically any green deck with a decent creature count. It's just that people are used to cradle being expensive so they don't think about it.
My point wasn't that mono-red is incredibly expensive, but that in order to make mono-red play at its most effective, you really need the high-cost cards. These are cards like Mana Crypt, Metalworker, Wheel of Fortune, Karn Liberated, Blood Moon, Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, and Gauntlet of Might.
I run a non-combo Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker deck, and it's honestly one of my favorites. Since I don't run any combos, the deck wins by just generating an avalanche of value off of etb triggers and death/ltb triggers. All the fun toys to increase the impact of etbs are in there, of course. I like that without any tutors and with what little card draw I can squeeze out, every game plays out very differently. Most of the players at my shop don't have top-tier decks, so playing something like this just makes it more fun for everybody involved.
Hard to believe godo isn't somewhere in the top tier, given that he now goes infinite with no support for 11 mana. And he was pretty strong before that, too. I'd have a very hard time believing norin is anywhere close to godo in terms of power level. Hidetsugu, feldon, etali, krenko, kurkesh, neheb (?), zada...I'd put all of those above norin pretty easily.
My point wasn't that mono-red is incredibly expensive, but that in order to make mono-red play at its most effective, you really need the high-cost cards. These are cards like Mana Crypt, Metalworker, Wheel of Fortune, Karn Liberated, Blood Moon, Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, and Gauntlet of Might.
Mono-red can be really expensive.
I guess that depends on your definition of "really expensive". Any deck can be fairly expensive if you optimize it, but at least mono-red doesn't have to shell out for duals and fetches and reserved list cards in multiple colors. Plus most of the things you mentioned are powerful in any color, blood moon is only $20, and wheel of fortune sucks in most decks imo. So that basically just leaves gauntlet.
Imperial Recruiter is real expensive as well, especially before the A25 reprint. I think most decks should be running some form of a Recruiter package, I know I'm tinkering around with it in my Slobad deck to fetch Metalworker, Myr Welder, Goblin Welder, and Treasonous Ogre.
You're right, Godo should be on there. I'll put up a list tonight
Imperial Recruiter is real expensive as well, especially before the A25 reprint. I think most decks should be running some form of a Recruiter package, I know I'm tinkering around with it in my Slobad deck to fetch Metalworker, Myr Welder, Goblin Welder, and Treasonous Ogre.
You're right, Godo should be on there. I'll put up a list tonight
Can't say I've had a lot of targets for recruiter in most of my decks, I'm not sure I've ever used my copy, though he's a fine card. If $40 is expensive, though, then a lot of cards qualify. When I made a "most expensive deck evarrrr" by putting all my priciest cards into a single deck, I think the cutoff for the top 60 nonland cards was above $40, and not many of them were red (incidentally, gauntlet of might WAS in there, and it was not great in a 5-color deck, to no one's surprise. It was a very bad deck).
Idk mostly it just seems like a weird thing to say, as though expense is a defining aspect of mono-red. It could be a defining aspect of some particular mono-red deck, one that runs tabernacle and workshop and bazaar and other pricey cards, but mono-red on average is very cheap relative to most optimized (or non-optimized) lists in other color combinations, or at the very very least, mono-red is not particularly expensive to where it merits a mention. The only way mono-red can really compete on cost is if you're comparing an optimized mono-red list against a pretty casual multicolor list, which hardly seems like a valuable comparison. Just an optimized 3-color manabase is going to cost more than nearly any mono-red deck, and most of the mono-red cards that merit a mention as being expensive are niche and/or nearly unplayable, like ali from cairo and zodiac dragon.
Also, I mean...mono-red IS weaker than multicolor (and mono-colors that aren't white). That's just a fact. Doesn't mean you can't compete with a well-built mono-red deck at nearly any LGS, but it does mean that, at similar levels of optimization, mono-red is almost always going to be at a disadvantage.
Again, my point isn't that expensiveness is one of red's qualities, more that in order to achieve super competitive red decks, you are going to need to shell out money on these powerful colorless cards and a few expensive red cards.
Additionally, I'm a little curious as to why Worldgorger isn't in any of your Zirilan lists, considering it goes infinite with Flameshadow Conjuring and Minion Reflector.
Again, my point isn't that expensiveness is one of red's qualities, more that in order to achieve super competitive red decks, you are going to need to shell out money on these powerful colorless cards and a few expensive red cards.
Additionally, I'm a little curious as to why Worldgorger isn't in any of your Zirilan lists, considering it goes infinite with Flameshadow Conjuring and Minion Reflector.
It gets a mention in the combo section (although I haven't actually built that version myself since it doesn't interest me). I think it's a fine card, but I also think that it's a one-trick pony and if you play against the same people more than once or twice, it's pretty easy to disrupt and you almost guaranteed lose the game if it gets disrupted. It's a fine card, though, I think I gave it 3-4 stars. Just not my cup of tea.
I feel like saying "mono-red is expensive because it costs a lot of money to compete with other decks" is like saying "mopeds are expensive, because it costs a lot of money to make one that can go as fast as a car".
Not necessarily, because you can make really competitive decks in other colors without many of these colored staples, but for many red decks running competitive without many of these colorless staples is a lot harder.
Not necessarily, because you can make really competitive decks in other colors without many of these colored staples, but for many red decks running competitive without many of these colorless staples is a lot harder.
I don't think that contradicts my analogy at all. No one is winning the indy 500 in a moped, and mono-red has no competitive-tier decks. If you soup up your moped you might be able to outrace your buddy's beat-up Volvo at least, but that doesn't mean mopeds are a more expensive vehicle. They're only more expensive if your goal is to race with them...and even then, they're not very good.
Mono-red is just bad. If you spend enough more and/or build a better-constructed deck and/or play against scrubs, then sure, you can win. Most people ARE playing against scrubs, and if you're on here there's a good chance you can build a better deck and spend more money than your playgroup too. And playing a bad color identity like mono-red is fun, because overcoming challenges is fun.
I guess if your point is that playing with a significant downside (like being mono-red) requires you to make up the deficit in other areas - such as by spending a bunch of money on cards that should be in every competitive deck like mana crypt - then...sure, I guess. But it sounds to me like you're trying to argue mopeds are expensive because you strapped some rocket boosters onto yours in order to race against your buddy's Volvo.
I don't think the analogy fits. EDH isn't the Indy 500. It's closer to a street race on a school night, and sometimes Volvos surprise you.
I don't think you're following the analogy.
Indy 500 = cEDH
street race = regular EDH
volvo = normal budgety multicolor deck
moped = mono-red deck
souped-up moped = mono-red deck with mana crypt and such
A moped just isn't winning the indy 500, period. It CAN win a street race if you soup it up, and it can win sometimes even if you don't, but my point is that it's kind of silly to say that mopeds are expensive vehicles because you're souping one up in order to win street races more reliably.
It's expensive in the same way that, say, homarid tribal is expensive. In itself it's not expensive, it's just that it sucks hard enough that you have to compensate by buying expensive cards (or rocket boosters, in the moped analogy) just to even have a decent chance in a street race. By that logic ANY strategy that sucks is expensive, because the easiest way to make up %points is by shoving money at the problem.
I get the picture you are trying to paint. I just don't think it's an accurate portrayal of EDH. The thing that makes it tricky is all of this is relative to the player's meta. I know there's a huge spectrum of levels of competitiveness. I also know that super casual players aren't sitting down to play with cut-throat competitive ones... At least not for long. Nobody has fun when Derevi, Empyrial Tactician mops the floor with Ashling the Pilgrim and 99 Mountains in every conceivable game. On the flip side, I played the archenemy so many times it got boring with Purphoros, God of the Forge.
As for the OP, I will give you there are some expensive red cards. Every single red deck gets better with the inclusion of Gauntlet of Might. Imperial Recruiter and Blood Moon were very pricey until the recent reprints. Of course those aren't auto includes. Wheel of Fortune on the other hand has gone in all of my mono red decks. There simply aren't better options. Hell, Goblin Lore is a 30 dollar uncommon.
So I will agree with you Dirk, a moped won't win the INDY 500, even if all the other drivers are scrubs. But if you ever find yourself at a stop light and you see me revving the engine of my buddy's Volvo, you better buckle up... It's going to be a wild ride!
I get the picture you are trying to paint. I just don't think it's an accurate portrayal of EDH. The thing that makes it tricky is all of this is relative to the player's meta. I know there's a huge spectrum of levels of competitiveness. I also know that super casual players aren't sitting down to play with cut-throat competitive ones... At least not for long. Nobody has fun when Derevi, Empyrial Tactician mops the floor with Ashling the Pilgrim and 99 Mountains in every conceivable game. On the flip side, I played the archenemy so many times it got boring with Purphoros, God of the Forge.
As for the OP, I will give you there are some expensive red cards. Every single red deck gets better with the inclusion of Gauntlet of Might. Imperial Recruiter and Blood Moon were very pricey until the recent reprints. Of course those aren't auto includes. Wheel of Fortune on the other hand has gone in all of my mono red decks. There simply aren't better options. Hell, Goblin Lore is a 30 dollar uncommon.
So I will agree with you Dirk, a moped won't win the INDY 500, even if all the other drivers are scrubs. But if you ever find yourself at a stop light and you see me revving the engine of my buddy's Volvo, you better buckle up... It's going to be a wild ride!
mono-red is the moped, not the volvo, and the indy 500 implies that the other pilots are actually good...anyway this argument has gotten pretty silly and way too long, but I just think it's a little strange to call mono-red expensive when it's only ever viable in a non-competitive setting, where the cost of a deck is always essentially arbitrary, and especially given that the ceiling for mono-red is very low. I'd say the most you could reasonably spend on a mono-red deck is probably less than 1K, which is very low compared to almost any other color combination.
The only sanctioned competitive setting this format has (French EDH) just banned Zurgo Bellstriker because he is "too good".
You may notice up in the URL that it says "multiplayer-commander-decklists".
As far as I'm concerned, 1v1 commander is a completely different format with no more relevance to multiplayer EDH than standard.
Although as long as we're looking, it's worth pointing out that the list only looks like it cost about $500, which is crazy low for a 100-card legacy-like competitive deck. Not terribly relevant though since nearly every nonland card in the deck is awful in multiplayer.
I know what forum we are in. The fact still stands that when it comes to sanctioned and competitive and EDH there is only one option. French. Arguably the best in Aggro but certainly the most represented deck is Zurgo. Saying mono red is just bad and only ever viable in a non-competitive setting is just not true.
Back to the topic at hand... I can spend the rest of the night agreeing with you about how inexpensive mono red is compared to other colors or combinations.
I know what forum we are in. The fact still stands that when it comes to sanctioned and competitive and EDH there is only one option. French. Arguably the best in Aggro but certainly the most represented deck is Zurgo. Saying mono red is just bad and only ever viable in a non-competitive setting is just not true.
french edh has a different banlist and life totals start at 20, in addition to the enormous difference that multiplayer has. Obviously aggro is way more effective vs one opponent at 20 life than 3 opponents at 40. Obviously mono-red looks a lot better there. Even without multiplayer, if french EDH had 40-point life totals I guarantee zurgo wouldn't be anywhere close to a banhammer.
I don't see how your argument holds any more water than mono-red being good in standard or legacy. As far as the meta composition goes, french EDH is EDH in name only.
Where mono-red is good (i.e. french or standard or legacy), it's almost always because of a fast aggro deck, using cards that are effective in a 20-life format. In EDH, many of red's best cards are worthless against high life totals and multiple opponents. That's why red is usually relatively well-balanced in other formats, and weak in commander.
This is usually how I respond:
To many people, the above cards represent a clean slate, a new beginning to the game. I propose a different idea: the above cards are highly abusable, able to create incredibly lopsided board states where you are the only person with permanents in play. If your deck is built right, these cards are 1-card win conditions.
So looking at some of red's most powerful tools, there are a few commanders that come to mind by which you can build around these cards. These commanders need to be able to protect your board in some way, while also providing utility on their own. To that end, there are a few that I consider top-tier or near top-tier.
The first, and I will argue one of the best:
Slobad does a lot of things. For the unaware, Slobad works like this: sacrifice half your artifacts to make the other half indestructible, then make a funeral pyre out of your opponent's boards. Easy, simple, quick, effective.
1 Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer
Artifacts:
1 Mox Opal
1 Mox Amber
1 Mana Crypt
1 Everflowing Chalice
1 Sol Ring
1 Expedition Map
1 Mana Vault
1 Ichor Wellspring
1 Winter Orb
1 Mycosynth Wellspring
1 Mind Stone
1 Grim Monolith
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Worn Powerstone
1 Rings of Brighthearth
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Staff of Domination
1 Gauntlet of Might
1 Aetherworks Marvel
1 Unwinding Clock
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Sisay's Ring
1 Hedron Archive
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Gauntlet of Power
1 Mind's Eye
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Ugin's Nexus
1 Caged Sun
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Planar Bridge
1 Staff of Nin
1 Dreamstone Hedron
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Darksteel Forge
1 Obliterate
1 Jokulhaups
1 Decree of Annihilation
1 Devastation
1 Ruination
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Vandalblast
1 Gamble
1 Scrap Mastery
1 All is Dust
1 Chaos Warp
Creatures:
1 Goblin Welder
1 Myr Welder
1 Palladium Myr
1 Metalworker
1 Treasonous Ogre
1 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Soul of New Phyrexia
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Blightsteel Colossus
Planeswalkers:
1 Daretti, Scrap Savant
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
1 Karn Liberated
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Blood Moon
1 Stranglehold
Lands:
1 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Dwarven Ruins
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Buried Ruin
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Great Furnace
1 City of Traitors
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Sandstone Needle
1 Crystal Vein
24 Mountain
So there are a lot of destructive combos this deck can utilize. But I think the first thing you should notice is the high planeswalker count. Decree of Annihilation and its ilk don't destroy planeswalkers. Simple enough- blow up the world, leave a walker or two behind.
Secondly, Mycosynth Lattice does some busted stuff here. This plus Vandalblast and Scrap Mastery are basically one-sided boardwipes. If you throw Nevinyrral's Disk into the mix with Slobad, you blow up your opponents' permanents while saving your best few.
Staff of Domination looks a little out of place, but it goes infinite with Metalworker and Myr Welder, as long as your Worker produces 6 mana, you can untap Worker for 3, and untap Staff for 1, generating 2 mana each time. With Welder, you can imprint the Staff onto Welder along with any artifact that taps for 2 so it reads: 1 untap Welder, tap: add 2 to your mana pool, allowing you to draw your whole deck and kill them with Staff of Nin pings after imprinting it on Welder.
Unwinding Clock breaks both Planar Bridge and Kuldotha Forgemaster, as you can essentially assemble any infinite mana combo on your opponents' turns, usually Rings of Brighthearth + Basalt Monolith OR the Nevinyrral's Disk combo from earlier.
Now on to the next commander, a little more briefly:
Zirilan partners well with the cards that blow up the world and one other card-
So let's look at the second list!
1x Basalt Monolith
1x Coalition Relic
1x Commander's Sphere
1x Darksteel Ingot
1x Dreamstone Hedron
1x Everflowing Chalice
1x Expedition Map
1x Fellwar Stone
1x Gilded Lotus
1x Hedron Archive
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mind Stone
1x Minion Reflector
1x Mirror of the Forebears
1x Oblivion Stone
1x Panharmonicon
1x Rings of Brighthearth
1x Scroll Rack
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sol Ring
1x Swiftfoot Boots
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Thran Dynamo
1x Worn Powerstone
1x All Is Dust
1x Apocalypse
1x Decree of Annihilation
1x Devastation
1x Faithless Looting
1x Gamble
1x Insurrection
1x Jokulhaups
1x Mana Geyser
1x Obliterate
1x Shattering Spree
1x Vandalblast
1x Reiterate
1x Wild Ricochet
Creatures:
1x Balefire Dragon
1x Burnished Hart
1x Hellkite Charger
1x Hellkite Tyrant
1x Hoarding Dragon
1x Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1x Knollspine Dragon
1x Scourge of the Throne
1x Scourge of Valkas
1x Skyline Despot
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Thunder Dragon
1x Utvara Hellkite
1x Worldgorger Dragon
1x Blood Moon
1x Flameshadow Conjuring
1x Sneak Attack
1x Sunbird's Invocation
1x Warstorm Surge
1x Where Ancients Tread
Planeswalkers:
1x Karn Liberated
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Lands:
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Crystal Vein
1x Dwarven Ruins
1x Endless Sands
1x Haven of the Spirit Dragon
1x Myriad Landscape
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Scrying Sheets
26x Snow-Covered Mountain
1x Spinerock Knoll
1x Strip Mine
1x Terrain Generator
1x Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
While not as effective and fast as the Slobad deck, this list has a quite a few things going for it.
Combos:
Hellkite Charger + Sword of Feast and Famine= infinite combat steps given that you have 7 lands. This allows you to clock opponents infinitely.
Rings of Brighthearth + Basalt Monolith= Infinite mana. While not a cornerstone combo, this gives you plenty of mana to play around with.
Flameshadow Conjuring/Minion Reflector + Worldgorger Dragon= Infinite ETB triggers/LTB triggers (damage with Warstorm Surge effects and Valakut, the Motlen Pinnacle)
So this one is a little more complex and not exactly obvious. What you do is tutor for Worldgorger Dragon with Conjuring or Reflector in play with at least one or two mana floating (to activate Flameshadow/Reflector later). Two triggers go on the stack: Worldgorger's ETB and Flameshadow/Reflector's trigger. Pay the mana for Flameshadow/Reflector, creating a token copy of Worldgorger. The tokens exile trigger will resolve before the original, exiling all your permanents except for the Worldgorger Dragon token. Then the original Worldgorger Dragon's exile trigger will resolve, exiling the token and bringing all your permanents back, lands untapped, with Flameshadow/Minion Reflector seeing Worldgorger Dragon entering the battlefield again, effectively putting you back at square one, except you have your lands untapped and more ETB triggers to resolve.
The easiest way to set up this combo is to tutor Scourge of Valkas at the end of your opponents' turn, as Zirilan only exiles at the beginning of the next end step, allowing you to keep the Valkas in play for your turn. Then on your turn, tutor out Worldgorger Dragon with Zirilan and go ham.
Remember: All of the artifacts that combo with these dragons can be effectively tutored out with Hoarding Dragon. Use this to your advantage!
This doesn't even account for the easy wins you get from tutoring out Worldgorger with your Obliterate/ Decree of Annihilation etc. on the stack (just be careful because if your opponents time their removal right they can exile your entire board).
That's it for me! Do you play Mono-R? What has been competitive for you?
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The former deck is mostly cards that protect Jaya from her own Inferno, cards that recur themselves, and cards that don't mind being discarded. Being able to destroy a blue permanent on demand makes players with blue commanders have second thoughts about playing their general, and the ability to Incinerate each turn cycle keeps a lot of utility creatures off the board, too. Once I hit 7 mana and give Jaya protection from red/indestructible/prevent noncombat damage to her, an Inferno every turn tends to end the game pretty quickly, even moreso if Jaya has also been given lifelink. Distorting Lens turns Jaya's first ability into Vindicate.
The latter deck is a one-trick pony storm combo deck, although there is a lot of redundancy for the combo pieces. To go infinite requires:
- Decrease Squee's cost by 1 (eg, Hazoret's Monument)
- Create a token when I cast/etb Squee (eg, Genesis Chamber)
- Sacrifice creatures for R (eg, Phyrexian Altar)
I can also substitute the cost decreaser for making 2 tokens on cast/etb.With all 3, I've got infinite storm count, and then I can win with Grapeshot, Purphoros, God of the Forge, etc.
Without #1 or #2, I've got +1 storm for R
Without #1 and #2, I've got +1 storm for 1R
Without any of #1-3, but with a free sac outlet that doesn't produce R, I've for +1 storm for 1RR (or RR if the sac outlet is Ashnod's Altar)
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
It's also plenty powerful without mass land destruction now that WotC is giving red actual card draw.
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
B Toshiro Umezawa
BG Pharika, God of Affliction - Necromancy and Politics
WWW The Church of Heliod
WBR Zurgo, Helmsmasher
RG Wort, the Raidmother
UBR Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge
UG Vorel of the Hull Clade
Thanks to the gem of a card called Repercussion I could try to make my Commander have a wincon that's not voltron, but admittedly I don't remember the plan actually working out spectacularly. Most of my more memorable victories involve Heartless Hidetsugu (and fittingly, since Hidetsugu was a force to be reckoned with in the novels), including one where I Hidetsugu dealt a solid 20+ damage to me but only 2 or 3 damage to my opponent (it's been a while I can't recall the exact number), but it was all worth it because Kumano, Master Yamabushi was there with sufficient mana to finish the job. Yes, that deck turned out to be way more Kamigawa then I initially thought it would be (all basics in that deck are foil Kamigawa Mountains to top it off).
Red is by no means weak, but admittedly it tends to linger at the ends of the power spectrum, where either its interaction/gameplay will either turn out to be underwhelming, or it does things too well (many game-winning-combos can easily be done in Mono-R, or even the one-sided boardwipes mentioned in the opening post tend to just tilt the game completely) that it can be argued to go the full circle and land back in "boring". I consciously chose to select the hard route for my deck (I could easily just stuff the deck with game-winning combos, and Godo even fits the flavor) but I believe that choice makes the games I win feel more memorable.
I suppose the same could apply to the entire format-at-large, but Mono-R surprisingly presents a scaled-down version of the exact same concept because of the way it functions in the format.
My Helpdesk
[Pr] Marath | [Pr] Lovisa | Jodah | Saskia | Najeela | Yisan | Lord Windgrace | Atraxa | Meren | Gisa and Geralf
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Mono-red can be really expensive.
EDIT: Imperial Recruiter as well.
Here's the link: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/autocardanywhere/eobkhgkgoejnjaiofdmphhkemmomfabg?hl=en
Here's the link: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/autocardanywhere/eobkhgkgoejnjaiofdmphhkemmomfabg?hl=en
Hard to believe godo isn't somewhere in the top tier, given that he now goes infinite with no support for 11 mana. And he was pretty strong before that, too. I'd have a very hard time believing norin is anywhere close to godo in terms of power level. Hidetsugu, feldon, etali, krenko, kurkesh, neheb (?), zada...I'd put all of those above norin pretty easily.
I guess that depends on your definition of "really expensive". Any deck can be fairly expensive if you optimize it, but at least mono-red doesn't have to shell out for duals and fetches and reserved list cards in multiple colors. Plus most of the things you mentioned are powerful in any color, blood moon is only $20, and wheel of fortune sucks in most decks imo. So that basically just leaves gauntlet.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
You're right, Godo should be on there. I'll put up a list tonight
Here's the link: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/autocardanywhere/eobkhgkgoejnjaiofdmphhkemmomfabg?hl=en
Idk mostly it just seems like a weird thing to say, as though expense is a defining aspect of mono-red. It could be a defining aspect of some particular mono-red deck, one that runs tabernacle and workshop and bazaar and other pricey cards, but mono-red on average is very cheap relative to most optimized (or non-optimized) lists in other color combinations, or at the very very least, mono-red is not particularly expensive to where it merits a mention. The only way mono-red can really compete on cost is if you're comparing an optimized mono-red list against a pretty casual multicolor list, which hardly seems like a valuable comparison. Just an optimized 3-color manabase is going to cost more than nearly any mono-red deck, and most of the mono-red cards that merit a mention as being expensive are niche and/or nearly unplayable, like ali from cairo and zodiac dragon.
Also, I mean...mono-red IS weaker than multicolor (and mono-colors that aren't white). That's just a fact. Doesn't mean you can't compete with a well-built mono-red deck at nearly any LGS, but it does mean that, at similar levels of optimization, mono-red is almost always going to be at a disadvantage.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Additionally, I'm a little curious as to why Worldgorger isn't in any of your Zirilan lists, considering it goes infinite with Flameshadow Conjuring and Minion Reflector.
Here's the link: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/autocardanywhere/eobkhgkgoejnjaiofdmphhkemmomfabg?hl=en
I feel like saying "mono-red is expensive because it costs a lot of money to compete with other decks" is like saying "mopeds are expensive, because it costs a lot of money to make one that can go as fast as a car".
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Here's the link: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/autocardanywhere/eobkhgkgoejnjaiofdmphhkemmomfabg?hl=en
Mono-red is just bad. If you spend enough more and/or build a better-constructed deck and/or play against scrubs, then sure, you can win. Most people ARE playing against scrubs, and if you're on here there's a good chance you can build a better deck and spend more money than your playgroup too. And playing a bad color identity like mono-red is fun, because overcoming challenges is fun.
I guess if your point is that playing with a significant downside (like being mono-red) requires you to make up the deficit in other areas - such as by spending a bunch of money on cards that should be in every competitive deck like mana crypt - then...sure, I guess. But it sounds to me like you're trying to argue mopeds are expensive because you strapped some rocket boosters onto yours in order to race against your buddy's Volvo.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Indy 500 = cEDH
street race = regular EDH
volvo = normal budgety multicolor deck
moped = mono-red deck
souped-up moped = mono-red deck with mana crypt and such
A moped just isn't winning the indy 500, period. It CAN win a street race if you soup it up, and it can win sometimes even if you don't, but my point is that it's kind of silly to say that mopeds are expensive vehicles because you're souping one up in order to win street races more reliably.
It's expensive in the same way that, say, homarid tribal is expensive. In itself it's not expensive, it's just that it sucks hard enough that you have to compensate by buying expensive cards (or rocket boosters, in the moped analogy) just to even have a decent chance in a street race. By that logic ANY strategy that sucks is expensive, because the easiest way to make up %points is by shoving money at the problem.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
As for the OP, I will give you there are some expensive red cards. Every single red deck gets better with the inclusion of Gauntlet of Might. Imperial Recruiter and Blood Moon were very pricey until the recent reprints. Of course those aren't auto includes. Wheel of Fortune on the other hand has gone in all of my mono red decks. There simply aren't better options. Hell, Goblin Lore is a 30 dollar uncommon.
So I will agree with you Dirk, a moped won't win the INDY 500, even if all the other drivers are scrubs. But if you ever find yourself at a stop light and you see me revving the engine of my buddy's Volvo, you better buckle up... It's going to be a wild ride!
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
As far as I'm concerned, 1v1 commander is a completely different format with no more relevance to multiplayer EDH than standard.
Although as long as we're looking, it's worth pointing out that the list only looks like it cost about $500, which is crazy low for a 100-card legacy-like competitive deck. Not terribly relevant though since nearly every nonland card in the deck is awful in multiplayer.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Back to the topic at hand... I can spend the rest of the night agreeing with you about how inexpensive mono red is compared to other colors or combinations.
I don't see how your argument holds any more water than mono-red being good in standard or legacy. As far as the meta composition goes, french EDH is EDH in name only.
Where mono-red is good (i.e. french or standard or legacy), it's almost always because of a fast aggro deck, using cards that are effective in a 20-life format. In EDH, many of red's best cards are worthless against high life totals and multiple opponents. That's why red is usually relatively well-balanced in other formats, and weak in commander.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6