I know that there are some similar Marchesa lists running around, but when I decided to make this more wizards tribal, I could only find decks that were 100% wizards (and clearly missing some valuable Marchesa staples), so here's my list.
Marchesa Wizard Tribal (mostly) aimed at accumulating more and more essentially undying creatures, despite interaction from opponents until I can get to a winning, or psuedo-winning board state. Generally, that's achieved in one of a few ways:
Jokulhaups with Marchesa and a few other creatures in play to wipe the board, and be the only one with creatures remaining
Payoff card in play--Flayer of the Hatebound or Warstorm Surge to chip away at life totals as my creatures cycle from play to the yard and back
Infinite combo with Puppeteer Clique and either of Metallic Mimic or Sage of Fables -- this wins either by having a payoff in play to trigger with each iteration of the Clique, or by stealing all creatures in opponents' graveyards and swinging in
Sometimes just one or two Puppeteer thefts is enough if an opponent has something really juicy, like a Pathbreaker Ibex
Swing for lethal with a team of puny wizards made mighty thanks to Dethrone
Sac outlets are of the utmost importance both to keep bodies flowing and net triggers, as well as a way to protect pieces from being exiled (and ensuring that you never/rarely have to pay a commander tax for Marchesa). Greater Gargadon is an all-star, being a sac outlet that opponents cannot interact with 99% of the time.
I welcome suggestions on changes that are worth making.
Naban also may need to be cut since he doesn't have that many things to interact with, but he did a lot of work for me in a recent game where I had Warstorm Surge out, but not much value, and I was getting double triggers on puny wizards, which allowed me to take out several threats.
I'll take a look at your list later, but I would make an initial suggestion that you format your deck to help readers review it properly. For example, you might consider adding sections to your deck by separating cards by card type (Creature, Artifacts, etc) or by card function (Removal, Card Draw, etc). If you have questions about formatting decks, there's an informative link in my signature.
I had just used the import from tappedout, and hadn't ever really put together a workable list on here, but your instructions in your sig were really helpful.
I like the deck! Here are a few things I'd consider. I'll admit I haven't made a Marchesa deck yet, but I've played against a few, and I'm definitely familiar with Grixis colors.
I think some of the best removal in your deck would be forced sacrifice via Dictate of Erebos and Grave Pact. These both play well into your strategy (killing your own dudes) and sacrifice is probably more powerful than damage-based removal like Blasphemous Act.
Without doing a Gatherer search I'm not sure, but some type of Blood Artist cards might be another good win condition. I don't think Blood Artist is a wizard, but there are a number of creatures with that effect. It might even be worth running without the wizard synergy. Vela the Night-Clad could put in good work along these lines.
Force of Will is strong, but you have such a strong graveyard recursion strategy that you might want to choose something that doesn't exile your stuff. Maybe Arcane Denial for the card draw or Swan Song for the cheap cost?
I noticed twoof your tutors (Dimir House Guard and Fleshwrither) tutor for a 3 drop card. In looking at your list, none of your Combo or Win Cons are 3 cmc. Is there something specific that you want every game that's 3cmc? If not, there are likely more reliable tutors, something as simple as Vampiric Tutor or Beseech the Queen?
Have you considered Bloodline Necromancer? Seems like good recursion and fits with your wizard theme. Apprentice Necromancer probably fills that role, but she requires you to wait a turn or have haste to benefit you.
Recursion? Mikaeus, the Unhallowed. No Black Rose deck should be without it. Don't think of it as a nonwizard, but as a lord to go with your commander, Same goes with Flayer of the Hatebound which is happily already on your list.
Don't forget the Magus...Magi? Sadly Magus of the Disk is white, but Magus of the Abyss is Black, which essentially makes it a walking Conjurer's Closet that ALSO does removal.
I agree with Outcryqq, Bloodline Necromancer would go beautifully in your deck.
In as far as sac outlets, it doesn't get cheaper than Claws of Gix.
I like the deck! Here are a few things I'd consider. I'll admit I haven't made a Marchesa deck yet, but I've played against a few, and I'm definitely familiar with Grixis colors.
I think some of the best removal in your deck would be forced sacrifice via Dictate of Erebos and Grave Pact. These both play well into your strategy (killing your own dudes) and sacrifice is probably more powerful than damage-based removal like Blasphemous Act.
Without doing a Gatherer search I'm not sure, but some type of Blood Artist cards might be another good win condition. I don't think Blood Artist is a wizard, but there are a number of creatures with that effect. It might even be worth running without the wizard synergy. Vela the Night-Clad could put in good work along these lines.
Force of Will is strong, but you have such a strong graveyard recursion strategy that you might want to choose something that doesn't exile your stuff. Maybe Arcane Denial for the card draw or Swan Song for the cheap cost?
I noticed twoof your tutors (Dimir House Guard and Fleshwrither) tutor for a 3 drop card. In looking at your list, none of your Combo or Win Cons are 3 cmc. Is there something specific that you want every game that's 3cmc? If not, there are likely more reliable tutors, something as simple as Vampiric Tutor or Beseech the Queen?
Have you considered Bloodline Necromancer? Seems like good recursion and fits with your wizard theme. Apprentice Necromancer probably fills that role, but she requires you to wait a turn or have haste to benefit you.
Lot's of good suggestions. Thanks!
I had considered Grave Pact effects, but I already have two decks that run these, and I feel like they benefit a lot from having more creatures on the board than I typically do (3-5, even if they do keep coming back). Additionally, I feel like in the games I've played so far, I don't get hated out of the game too quickly, because I'm not messing up everyone else's strategy constantly, so I'm given some time to get rolling, whereas these cards draw a lot of hate when they hit the table.
Oh, and while not a major point, I have played one game where I essentially used Blasphemous Act as a sac outlet, because someone had a Linvala in play that was indestructible and I couldn't activate my available sac outlets. BA cost R at the time, and I had an Archaeomancer, which died and came back to return BA to hand, then the sweep cost 2R on the next two turns.
Similar to the above, I have a few decks already that have Blood Artist and company. On top of that, their not being wizards is kind of a big deal, since they don't get recurred easily with Marchesa. I had been running Arcane Adaptation, which was occasionally very strong, but the rest of the time it was essentially a dead card in hand, and with the heavier wizards theme, it feels much less relevant.
Vela I have been debating, but I feel like she goes in for either Flayer or Warstorm, but they both seem better, since they can hit creatures, and can result in bigger chunks of life coming off at a time. That said, if I end up feeling like pushing tribal a little harder, or feel like I want to be able to attack for effectively, I think I would bring her in.
My inclusion of FoW over AD and Swan Song (both of which I had had in the deck previously) is partly due to having several games where I needed to counter something, but didn't have mana open--in the early turns, especially, I always feel like I'm short on mana, and it can be hard to keep up a land or two for a counterspell. I feel like a lot of decks don't care too much about what happens in the first few turns (unless you're in cEDH), then are very concerned with protecting their board later in the game, but this deck is kind of the reverse: I need to ensure that Marchesa is safe until I can get a +1/+1 counter on her and a sac outlet in play, and I need to protect my sac outlet, but once I've got a little board presence, it can become very difficult to mess up my game. So, a 0-mana counterspell fits perfectly. Also, I had a FoW without a deck to put it in, which seemed like a travesty, and when I retooled this to be more wizard-heavy, and therefore more blue-heavy, it looked like a no-brainer.
Dimir House Guard and Fleshwrither tutor for FOUR mana cards/creatures (Transmute fetches a card with mana cost equal to the card that had Transmute on it, so Drift of Phantasms fetches a 3-mana card, and Muddle the Mixture fetches a 2-mana card), not 3. They cost 3 to activate, but they fetch each other (the dream with Fleshwrither is to get a +1/+1 counter on it and tutor out a 4-mana creature on each of my turns), which means I can use Fleshy to get a sac outlet (DHG), they can get a +1/+1 counter generator (Cytoplast), theft (Cyto or Sower of Temptation), counterspell (Gle Elendra Archmage, Venser), some removal (Vindictive Lich, Profaner of the Dead), card draw (Corpse Augur, Disciple of Bolas), Haste (Anger, Sneak Attack), or instant/sorcery recursion (Archaeomancer).
If I had a Vampiric Tutor, I'd probably run it over one of these, but it's pricey, and I think Beseech the Queen is not very good. Triple black can be tough, and at 4 mana, I could just cast Diabolic Tutor, get anything irrespective of land, and not have to reveal the card I fetched up.
I had thought about Bloodline Necromancer, and am still considering it. I like Apprentice a little better (I think), because it comes down sooner, allows me to reanimate something at instant speed, gives that thing haste (which may be relevant), sets up a delayed sacrifice of that creature (which may be relevant), and can grab the few non-wizards I have in the decks still if I need them. Still, Bloodline is near the top of my "maybes" list.
Recursion? Mikaeus, the Unhallowed. No Black Rose deck should be without it. Don't think of it as a nonwizard, but as a lord to go with your commander, Same goes with Flayer of the Hatebound which is happily already on your list.
Don't forget the Magus...Magi? Sadly Magus of the Disk is white, but Magus of the Abyss is Black, which essentially makes it a walking Conjurer's Closet that ALSO does removal.
I agree with Outcryqq, Bloodline Necromancer would go beautifully in your deck.
In as far as sac outlets, it doesn't get cheaper than Claws of Gix.
Yeah, Mikaeus is at the top of my list for consideration. Right now, the things holding him back are: I only have one, and it's in another deck, several of the cards I want to recur here are humans, which he doesn't help, and I want to limit how many 6-mana spells I have in the deck. Not sure what I would drop for him.
Magus of the Abyss was under consideration, and I went with Vindictive Lich instead (I could run both, but again, what to drop?). Initially, I had actually been thinking that I wanted Ravenous Chupacabra in here, but it was looking too hard to recur, not being a wizard. Then the choice was between giving an opponent the choice of killing their least valuable creature once per turn, and having to wait until each upkeep to do that (and they can choose an indestructible creature), or forcing a sacrifice at instant-speed when I want it, possibly targeting the same player once each turn for the turn cycle (4 creatures removed on 1 player, instead of 1 creature removed for 3 players AND killing one of my own guys), plus some additional value in discards and life loss.
Two votes for Bloodline probably brings him in...but what to cut? Maybe Naban? I like the two of them together, but I feel like the Dean of Iteration doesn't work with many cards in the deck as it stands.
Claws are a consideration. As is Thoughtpicker Witch who is a wizard and has an interesting effect attached to the sac outlet, and if I'm going to have to pay mana to sac something, I feel like I want the effect I get to be relevant. Life gain isn't bad, and sometimes is necessary here, but most of the time I'm trying to lower myself off the throne, rather than creep back up.
My only response for picking Claws over Witch (aside from cmc) is that it allows you to take someone's Moat with Conscripts and then sacrifice it before they get it back. I do however agree that life-gain might work against your decks goal and for how cheap witch is, she is probably a better fit.
I admit that having an effect that works with only 2/3 of your creatures might seem subpar, but it is still one heck of an effect in terms of Mikaeus. In as far as subbing out a card for Mikaeus or Bloodline Necromancer, I would recommend taking out your Anger (heh heh, taking out your anger). The reason for this is that you only have 4 lands in your deck that count as mountains, which means most of the time this is a hasty 2/2 for 4cmc.
It is hard to say whether to cut Naban or not. He seems to only work with ten cards, but some of them are cause for high shenanigans. Also he has a low CMC.
In as far creature theft, have you though about running Dragon's Blood or something like it? Marchesa's recursion is for creatures you control and returns them under your control. I know that you have Cytoplast Manipulator, but you also have Sower of Temptation and other theft cards that have unsung potential if there was more ability to add +1/+1 counters to kidnapped creatures. Just a thought.
That's a good point regarding Claws, and after the game I was in last night, I'm inclined to feel it needs to be in the deck--I had no way to put a +1/+1 counter on a stolen creature at end of turn when Conscripts would come back in, but one opponent had several powerful artifacts that I would have liked to get rid of, rather than steal them for a single end step (although I did hilariously steal a Vedalken Orrery with Conscripts, then copied Conscripts with one of my clone variants and stole his Sol Ring in order to cast a Metallic Mimic at end of turn).
Anger I'm torn on. While I do only have 5 (3 Mountains, Steam Vents, and Blood Crypt) cards that activate him, I have 3 fetchlands and 2 land tutors in the deck--so far, I have never had Anger and not had a Mountain. In one game it was relevant that my guys had haste, as I had to sacrifice the team in response to a board wipe on one turn, then on the next my opponent dropped a rather nasty creature (can't recall what) and I was able to graft a counter onto it from Cytoplast, then activate Cytoplast to steal it in response to a Lightning Greaves equip, which would have been impossible without universal haste.
Hasting the whole team is also useful with Sower, since it allows me to play the Sower, steal a creature, and attack with it to gain a +1/+1 counter via Dethrone in the same turn.
Dragon Blood would be useful, but the 3 activation is rough. Unfortunately, there aren't all that many ways to put a +1/+1 counter on a creature whenever you want. I've considered Power Conduit, but that only works if I have other guys with counters on them (and ideally more than one so I'm not risking one creature to save another). Simic Fluxmage was also a consideration, but it's slow, and again costs mana to activate that I often don't have available. Sparring Construct could be a possibility, as it could be sacrificed to throw a counter on something, but it's not a wizard, so it can't easily get a counter on itself, and it requires a repeatable sac outlet, which I want, but on its own, it doesn't do anything. Amok is a thing, but I don't know that I would be happy randomly discarding all that often. That's all to say, Unspeakable Symbol is super-good, but I've only seen it in 1 out of probably 20+ games at this point!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
1x Marchesa, the Black Rose
Draw
1x Alchemist's Apprentice
1x Azami, Lady of Scrolls
1x Corpse Augur
1x Disciple of Bolas
1x Grim Haruspex
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x River Kelpie
1x Sage of Fables
1x Sea Gate Oracle
Haste
1x Anger
1x Flamekin Village
1x Hall of the Bandit Lord
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Sneak Attack
Recursion
1x Apprentice Necromancer
1x Archaeomancer
1x Living Death
Sac Outlet
1x Ashnod's Altar
1x Dimir House Guard
1x Goblin Bombardment
1x Greater Gargadon
1x High Market
1x Miren, the Moaning Well
1x Phyrexian Altar
1x Viscera Seer
Land
1x Bad River
1x Blood Crypt
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Bojuka Bog
1x City of Brass
1x Command Tower
1x Crosis's Catacombs
1x Flamekin Village
1x Hall of the Bandit Lord
1x High Market
5x Island
1x Mana Confluence
1x Miren, the Moaning Well
3x Mountain
1x Opal Palace
1x Path of Ancestry
1x Polluted Delta
1x Riptide Laboratory
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Steam Vents
1x Strip Mine
1x Sulfurous Springs
3x Swamp
1x Tarnished Citadel
1x Tolaria West
1x Underground River
1x Watery Grave
1x Blasphemous Act
1x Cyclonic Rift
1x Jokulhaups
1x Chaos Warp
1x Living Death
1x Profaner of the Dead
1x Sidisi's Faithful
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Vindictive Lich
Utility
1x Clever Impersonator
1x Dack's Duplicate
1x Naban, Dean of Iteration
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
+1/+1 Counters
1x Cytoplast Manipulator
1x Metallic Mimic
1x Sage of Fables
1x Unspeakable Symbol
1x Vigean Graftmage
Theft
1x Cytoplast Manipulator
1x Mark of Mutiny
1x Sower of Temptation
1x Zealous Conscripts
Ramp
1x Darksteel Ingot
1x Dimir Signet
1x Izzet Signet
1x Pilgrim's Eye
1x Rakdos Signet
1x Sol Ring
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Stonybrook Banneret
1x Talisman of Dominance
1x Talisman of Indulgence
Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Diabolic Intent
1x Dimir House Guard
1x Fleshwrither
1x Vedalken AEthermage
1x Flayer of the Hatebound
1x Jokulhaups
1x Puppeteer Clique
1x Warstorm Surge
Control
1x Force of Will
1x Glen Elendra Archmage
1x Pact of Negation
1x Patron Wizard
1x Siren Stormtamer
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
Combo
1x Glen Elendra Archmage
1x Puppeteer Clique
1x River Kelpie
Link to deck @ TappedOut.net
Marchesa Wizard Tribal (mostly) aimed at accumulating more and more essentially undying creatures, despite interaction from opponents until I can get to a winning, or psuedo-winning board state. Generally, that's achieved in one of a few ways:
I welcome suggestions on changes that are worth making.
I'll take a look at your list later, but I would make an initial suggestion that you format your deck to help readers review it properly. For example, you might consider adding sections to your deck by separating cards by card type (Creature, Artifacts, etc) or by card function (Removal, Card Draw, etc). If you have questions about formatting decks, there's an informative link in my signature.
Currently Playing:
Multiplayer EDH Lists (click italics for a link to the thread!)
[Primer] Lord of Tresserhorn - Don't Tell Me What I Can't Do[Primer] Roon of the Hidden Realm - Rhino Blink
5 Color Tribal Guide (Slivers, Atogs, Allies, Spirits)
Also Playing (most decklists can be found on my profile)
MarathGeistKamahlGrenzoBolasThassaGitrog
PiratesZurVial Smasher&ThrasiosYennettJhoira(cEDH)Strix(Pauper)
Legacy: Maverick
Modern:
Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebearsI had just used the import from tappedout, and hadn't ever really put together a workable list on here, but your instructions in your sig were really helpful.
I would definitely appreciate any feedback!
Currently Playing:
Multiplayer EDH Lists (click italics for a link to the thread!)
[Primer] Lord of Tresserhorn - Don't Tell Me What I Can't Do[Primer] Roon of the Hidden Realm - Rhino Blink
5 Color Tribal Guide (Slivers, Atogs, Allies, Spirits)
Also Playing (most decklists can be found on my profile)
MarathGeistKamahlGrenzoBolasThassaGitrog
PiratesZurVial Smasher&ThrasiosYennettJhoira(cEDH)Strix(Pauper)
Legacy: Maverick
Modern:
Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebearsDon't forget the Magus...Magi? Sadly Magus of the Disk is white, but Magus of the Abyss is Black, which essentially makes it a walking Conjurer's Closet that ALSO does removal.
I agree with Outcryqq, Bloodline Necromancer would go beautifully in your deck.
In as far as sac outlets, it doesn't get cheaper than Claws of Gix.
Lot's of good suggestions. Thanks!
Yeah, Mikaeus is at the top of my list for consideration. Right now, the things holding him back are: I only have one, and it's in another deck, several of the cards I want to recur here are humans, which he doesn't help, and I want to limit how many 6-mana spells I have in the deck. Not sure what I would drop for him.
Magus of the Abyss was under consideration, and I went with Vindictive Lich instead (I could run both, but again, what to drop?). Initially, I had actually been thinking that I wanted Ravenous Chupacabra in here, but it was looking too hard to recur, not being a wizard. Then the choice was between giving an opponent the choice of killing their least valuable creature once per turn, and having to wait until each upkeep to do that (and they can choose an indestructible creature), or forcing a sacrifice at instant-speed when I want it, possibly targeting the same player once each turn for the turn cycle (4 creatures removed on 1 player, instead of 1 creature removed for 3 players AND killing one of my own guys), plus some additional value in discards and life loss.
Two votes for Bloodline probably brings him in...but what to cut? Maybe Naban? I like the two of them together, but I feel like the Dean of Iteration doesn't work with many cards in the deck as it stands.
Claws are a consideration. As is Thoughtpicker Witch who is a wizard and has an interesting effect attached to the sac outlet, and if I'm going to have to pay mana to sac something, I feel like I want the effect I get to be relevant. Life gain isn't bad, and sometimes is necessary here, but most of the time I'm trying to lower myself off the throne, rather than creep back up.
So, thoughts on what to cut for Bloodline Necromancer?
I admit that having an effect that works with only 2/3 of your creatures might seem subpar, but it is still one heck of an effect in terms of Mikaeus. In as far as subbing out a card for Mikaeus or Bloodline Necromancer, I would recommend taking out your Anger (heh heh, taking out your anger). The reason for this is that you only have 4 lands in your deck that count as mountains, which means most of the time this is a hasty 2/2 for 4cmc.
It is hard to say whether to cut Naban or not. He seems to only work with ten cards, but some of them are cause for high shenanigans. Also he has a low CMC.
In as far creature theft, have you though about running Dragon's Blood or something like it? Marchesa's recursion is for creatures you control and returns them under your control. I know that you have Cytoplast Manipulator, but you also have Sower of Temptation and other theft cards that have unsung potential if there was more ability to add +1/+1 counters to kidnapped creatures. Just a thought.
Anger I'm torn on. While I do only have 5 (3 Mountains, Steam Vents, and Blood Crypt) cards that activate him, I have 3 fetchlands and 2 land tutors in the deck--so far, I have never had Anger and not had a Mountain. In one game it was relevant that my guys had haste, as I had to sacrifice the team in response to a board wipe on one turn, then on the next my opponent dropped a rather nasty creature (can't recall what) and I was able to graft a counter onto it from Cytoplast, then activate Cytoplast to steal it in response to a Lightning Greaves equip, which would have been impossible without universal haste.
Hasting the whole team is also useful with Sower, since it allows me to play the Sower, steal a creature, and attack with it to gain a +1/+1 counter via Dethrone in the same turn.
Dragon Blood would be useful, but the 3 activation is rough. Unfortunately, there aren't all that many ways to put a +1/+1 counter on a creature whenever you want. I've considered Power Conduit, but that only works if I have other guys with counters on them (and ideally more than one so I'm not risking one creature to save another). Simic Fluxmage was also a consideration, but it's slow, and again costs mana to activate that I often don't have available. Sparring Construct could be a possibility, as it could be sacrificed to throw a counter on something, but it's not a wizard, so it can't easily get a counter on itself, and it requires a repeatable sac outlet, which I want, but on its own, it doesn't do anything. Amok is a thing, but I don't know that I would be happy randomly discarding all that often. That's all to say, Unspeakable Symbol is super-good, but I've only seen it in 1 out of probably 20+ games at this point!