Hi guys, I once had a Karametra, God of Harvests deck that was built around big creature. But it was boring after a while. So I want to approach different built on this general. I believe she is so underrated as a general. She actually fix one of the problem in the game itself, which is ramp. Although she is very expensive to cast (5CMC), she is indestructible and easily abuse-able with low cost creatures.
Recently I was thinking of building a hate-bears deck. I started with mono-white hate bears, it was great, but having a limited ability to ramp is killing me. So I decided to add green which led me to Karametra (not picking Gaddock Teeg cause it just too mean for my playgroup). However, there is another general that also fits the bill, Anafenza, the Foremost. She has a built in graveyard-hate, but i am not sure adding black in the deck would out-perform the ramp that Karametra gives.
So the game plan of the deck is too ramp, control the board with hate-bears, then beat them up with Sword-wielding angels on the sky.
I have concern about how the deck will hold up in a late game, once my opponents have their big creatures out. There is one guy in my play group that play Omnath, Locus of Rage, and once he got his armies up it will be dicey situation. I wonder if I should add the usual duo, Avenger of Zendikar and Craterhoof Behemoth to close it out on some grindy game. Anyway, what do you guys think about the deck?
I personally feel that using mana dorks (Birds, Arbor Elf, Avacyn's Pilgrim, etc.) over land ramp is a mistake. The problem is that turn 1 Birds or an elf is great to get moving, but if the board is ever wrathed, you lose all that. I also understand that in this deck they land ramp as well with Karametra but so does everything else. And if you ever need to wipe the board, it feels bad to destroy 3-6 of your own mana producers.
Most of these also work better with cards like Whitemane Lion and Temur Sabertooth as you keep ramping if you end up bouncing one of them. Though, they are turned off by your Hushwing Gryff.
Eladamri's Call is a better Worldly Tutor. I think slotting in Momentous Fall is worthwhile though it (and a couple other cards) are turned off by your Angel of Jubilation. I would probably cut that card as it does stop you from doing a few things.
Avenger + Craterhoof is a decent way to close out the game so if you feel your creatures are not quite getting there (a common issue with hate-bears as they tend to be small) I think finding a place for this is a good idea.
I personally feel that using mana dorks (Birds, Arbor Elf, Avacyn's Pilgrim, etc.) over land ramp is a mistake. The problem is that turn 1 Birds or an elf is great to get moving, but if the board is ever wrathed, you lose all that. I also understand that in this deck they land ramp as well with Karametra but so does everything else. And if you ever need to wipe the board, it feels bad to destroy 3-6 of your own mana producers.
Most of these also work better with cards like Whitemane Lion and Temur Sabertooth as you keep ramping if you end up bouncing one of them. Though, they are turned off by your Hushwing Gryff.
Eladamri's Call is a better Worldly Tutor. I think slotting in Momentous Fall is worthwhile though it (and a couple other cards) are turned off by your Angel of Jubilation. I would probably cut that card as it does stop you from doing a few things.
Avenger + Craterhoof is a decent way to close out the game so if you feel your creatures are not quite getting there (a common issue with hate-bears as they tend to be small) I think finding a place for this is a good idea.
Actually, it seems like the cheap mana dorks, i.e. Llanowar Elves, Birds of Paradise, etc., can be very strong in Karametra, since he gets a land each time he casts one of them. Paying G for both an Arbor Elf and a Nature's Lore actually seems amazing, not to mention the elves are much better than land ramp early game.
Also, Momentous Fall is amazing in a fatties deck like Xenagos, God of Revels, but very underwhelming here. Angel of Jubilation is strictly a meta call in my opinion, much more so than dependent on what he's currently trying to do.
I played three games last night and won one.
The MVP of the games were Umezawa's Jitte, Spirit of the Labyrinth and Archangel of Tithes. I will cut Solemnity out. While it shut down experience counters (which is very common in my playgroup), it also provides an 'unexpected' interaction to my opponents. During one of the game, I had solemnity out and my opponent play Glen Elendra Archmage, and he can just keep playing U to counter non-creature spell..GG
Regarding the cheap mana dorks, I like them because I can cycle them (with Birthing Pod or Evolutionary Leap) once I got Karametra out. The same can't be said with cards like Sakura-Tribe Elder and Dawntreader Elk. Also some of the creature-ramp that brings land on ETB usually a bit slow.
[card]
Angel of Jubilation[/card], the jury still out for her. She does shut down some of the niche play-style in commander. I will give it a try one more time before make the decision on here (plus, she is an angel, I don't want to exclude her..lol)
Fyndhorn Elder & Greenweaver Druid. I do like their cmc at 3, because once they help the ramp I can fetch any of the 4cmc angels with birthing pod, or 5cmc with Eldritch Evolution. Heliod, God of the Sun. I like the vigilance that he gives, but early game he is a dead weight in my hand . But surprisingly, it's not so hard to turn his devotion online. Archangel of Tithes. I think she is underrated. She is like mini-ghostly prison for offense and defense. Ramunap Excavator. I agree with this, I will cut him. There is a few armageddon effect on my play-group but often times he just sits there do nothing on the board. Thalia's Lancers. I would never get enough of tutor. I know she is not the best, but she can fetch any legendary, from Umezawa's Jitte to Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. Flickerwisp. Agree with this, should be cut. Selfless Squire. Still not sure about her, I had her twice last night but she didn't do much. Glory. I think he is underrated too. He can make all my creatures unblockable and protect them with spot-removal. With all the mana I have late-game, he can be a great mana-sink.
Stonecloaker is great, having the ability to exile graveyard on flash is huge. Whitemane Lion, he can abuse Karametra ability and save a creature if you need him to be. There are a few stealing-your-creature going on in my meta, having them on my hand does make them think twice to steal my creature.
Thanks for the link to the Anafenza's deck. I will check it out. Gaddock Teeg, strickly a personal call to exclude him in my deck. I don't really like to shut the board down without giving the opportunity for my opponent to get rid of the problem. It just too oppressive in my book. Sanctum Prelate, wow this is a good card. She is like a 'nicer' version of Teeg. Her ability also very 'mono-white control'vwithout being too oppressive. I will try to get here next time.
Went to play a few more games tonight and the results were great.
Sylvan Library definitely a power house. I am thinking to add more similar effects like Sensei's Divining Top and Mirri's Guile. But I can see a point by having 3 of them in the deck would be a bit too much.
Angel of Jubilation would be cut. Like some of the suggestion above, she shut down some of the effect in my deck while not really doing anything. I think I will replace her with Sigarda, Heron's Grace.
Will try out Silent Arbiter or Crawlspace on my next playtime. I think it would be a great addition against swarm deck.
If you were playing bant you could have played Stoic Angel.
Several more suggestions:
You seem to be interested in locking down the board and preventing attackers. Glare of Subdual is great at this, but mostly Dueling Grounds. Windborn Muse is usually an upgrade over your Archangel of Tithes.
I would consider keeping Caustic Caterpillar and slotting in Ranger of Eos to tutor for it.
I think you should leave Green Sun's Zenith in. It is such a strong card, and you can fetch stuff like Dromoka, Mirri, Ooze, etc.
Recently I was thinking of building a hate-bears deck. I started with mono-white hate bears, it was great, but having a limited ability to ramp is killing me. So I decided to add green which led me to Karametra (not picking Gaddock Teeg cause it just too mean for my playgroup). However, there is another general that also fits the bill, Anafenza, the Foremost. She has a built in graveyard-hate, but i am not sure adding black in the deck would out-perform the ramp that Karametra gives.
So here is the decklist:
1x Angel of Jubilation
1x Llanowar Elf
1x Archangel of Tithes
1x Avacyn's Pilgrim
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Containment Priest
1x Dauntless Escort
1x Dragonlord Dromoka
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Elvish Mystic
1x Eternal Witness
1x Fyndhorn Elder
1x Fyndhorn Elves
1x Glory
1x Greenweaver Druid
1x Heliod, God of the Sun
1x Hushwing Gryff
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1x Mirri, Weatherlight Duelist
1x Recruiter of the Guard
1x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Selfless Squire
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Spirit of the Labyrinth
1x Stonecloaker
1x Sublime Archangel
1x Sun Titan
1x Temur Sabertooth
1x Thalia's Lancers
1x Whitemane Lion
1x Canopy Vista
1x Command Tower
1x Evolving Wilds
1x Windswept Heath
11x Forest
1x Grasslands
1x High Market
1x Homeward Path
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Winding Canyon
1x Fortified Village
9x Plains
1x Rogue's Passage
1x Scattered Groves
1x Sunpetal Grove
1x Temple Garden
1x Terramorphic Expanse
Artifact (8)
1x Birthing Pod
1x Eldrazi Monument
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Mind's Eye
1x Skullclamp
1x Sol Ring
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
Sorcery (6)
1x Eldritch Evolution
1x Harmonize
1x Hour of Revelation
1x Praetor's Counsel
1x Wrath of God
1x Aura of Silence
1x Aura Shards
1x Evolutionary Leap
1x Ground Seal
1x Marshal's Anthem
1x Mirari's Wake
1x Sacred Mesa
1x Sandwurm Convergence
1x Sylvan Library
Instant (6)
1x Chord of Calling
1x Hallowed Moonlight
1x Return to Dust
1x Selesnya Charm
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Unexpectedly Absent
1x Worldly Tutor
So the game plan of the deck is too ramp, control the board with hate-bears, then beat them up with Sword-wielding angels on the sky.
I have concern about how the deck will hold up in a late game, once my opponents have their big creatures out. There is one guy in my play group that play Omnath, Locus of Rage, and once he got his armies up it will be dicey situation. I wonder if I should add the usual duo, Avenger of Zendikar and Craterhoof Behemoth to close it out on some grindy game. Anyway, what do you guys think about the deck?
Update:
Relic Seeker > Stoneforge Mystic
Flickerwisp > Skullclamp
Caustic Caterpillar > Qasali Pridemage
Arbor elf > Llanowar elf
Ramunap Excavator > Sylvan Library
Green Sun's Zenith > Chord of calling/Eladamri's Call
Solemnity > Sublime Archangel
I would slot in things like the following:
Most of these also work better with cards like Whitemane Lion and Temur Sabertooth as you keep ramping if you end up bouncing one of them. Though, they are turned off by your Hushwing Gryff.
Eladamri's Call is a better Worldly Tutor. I think slotting in Momentous Fall is worthwhile though it (and a couple other cards) are turned off by your Angel of Jubilation. I would probably cut that card as it does stop you from doing a few things.
Avenger + Craterhoof is a decent way to close out the game so if you feel your creatures are not quite getting there (a common issue with hate-bears as they tend to be small) I think finding a place for this is a good idea.
Actually, it seems like the cheap mana dorks, i.e. Llanowar Elves, Birds of Paradise, etc., can be very strong in Karametra, since he gets a land each time he casts one of them. Paying G for both an Arbor Elf and a Nature's Lore actually seems amazing, not to mention the elves are much better than land ramp early game.
Also, Momentous Fall is amazing in a fatties deck like Xenagos, God of Revels, but very underwhelming here. Angel of Jubilation is strictly a meta call in my opinion, much more so than dependent on what he's currently trying to do.
However, here's a list of things that should be removed:
Expensive mana dudes (Fyndhorn Elder & Greenweaver Druid). Instead of those you can definitely slot in land ramp.
Heliod, God of the Sun
Archangel of Tithes
Ramunap Excavator
Thalia's Lancers
Flickerwisp
Selfless Squire
Glory
Let me know how Whitemane Lion and Stonecloaker work out for you. In my Ephara, God of the Polis deck they are obsene, but I'm not sure if they are good enough for you here.
Things you can add:
Honestly, this Anafenza primer can probably cover most of the hatebear options you can have. I'm mainly missing Gaddock Teeg, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Sanctum Prelate, etc.
I played three games last night and won one.
The MVP of the games were Umezawa's Jitte, Spirit of the Labyrinth and Archangel of Tithes. I will cut Solemnity out. While it shut down experience counters (which is very common in my playgroup), it also provides an 'unexpected' interaction to my opponents. During one of the game, I had solemnity out and my opponent play Glen Elendra Archmage, and he can just keep playing U to counter non-creature spell..GG
Regarding the cheap mana dorks, I like them because I can cycle them (with Birthing Pod or Evolutionary Leap) once I got Karametra out. The same can't be said with cards like Sakura-Tribe Elder and Dawntreader Elk. Also some of the creature-ramp that brings land on ETB usually a bit slow.
[card]
Angel of Jubilation[/card], the jury still out for her. She does shut down some of the niche play-style in commander. I will give it a try one more time before make the decision on here (plus, she is an angel, I don't want to exclude her..lol)
Fyndhorn Elder & Greenweaver Druid. I do like their cmc at 3, because once they help the ramp I can fetch any of the 4cmc angels with birthing pod, or 5cmc with Eldritch Evolution.
Heliod, God of the Sun. I like the vigilance that he gives, but early game he is a dead weight in my hand
Archangel of Tithes. I think she is underrated. She is like mini-ghostly prison for offense and defense.
Ramunap Excavator. I agree with this, I will cut him. There is a few armageddon effect on my play-group but often times he just sits there do nothing on the board.
Thalia's Lancers. I would never get enough of tutor. I know she is not the best, but she can fetch any legendary, from Umezawa's Jitte to Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite.
Flickerwisp. Agree with this, should be cut.
Selfless Squire. Still not sure about her, I had her twice last night but she didn't do much.
Glory. I think he is underrated too. He can make all my creatures unblockable and protect them with spot-removal. With all the mana I have late-game, he can be a great mana-sink.
Stonecloaker is great, having the ability to exile graveyard on flash is huge.
Whitemane Lion, he can abuse Karametra ability and save a creature if you need him to be. There are a few stealing-your-creature going on in my meta, having them on my hand does make them think twice to steal my creature.
Thanks for the link to the Anafenza's deck. I will check it out.
Gaddock Teeg, strickly a personal call to exclude him in my deck. I don't really like to shut the board down without giving the opportunity for my opponent to get rid of the problem. It just too oppressive in my book.
Sanctum Prelate, wow this is a good card. She is like a 'nicer' version of Teeg. Her ability also very 'mono-white control'vwithout being too oppressive. I will try to get here next time.
Update:
Relic Seeker > Stoneforge Mystic (Straight Upgrade)
Flickerwisp > Skullclamp (Turn mana-dorks into draw engine, not to mention the dorks can tap himself to equip, what an irony)
Caustic Caterpillar > Qasali Pridemage (cmc 2, a viable target for birthing pod with mana-dorks in it)
Arbor elf > Llanowar elf (a few times, I don't have forest, but a check land on the board that makes Arbor elf useless)
Ramunap Excavator > Sylvan Library (I finally have this card)
Green Sun's Zenith > Chord of calling/Eladamri's Call (I have too many non-green creature that can't be targeted with the green sun, I think Chord is better, also at instant speed)
Solemnity > Sublime Archangel > Another angel
Sylvan Library definitely a power house. I am thinking to add more similar effects like Sensei's Divining Top and Mirri's Guile. But I can see a point by having 3 of them in the deck would be a bit too much.
Angel of Jubilation would be cut. Like some of the suggestion above, she shut down some of the effect in my deck while not really doing anything. I think I will replace her with Sigarda, Heron's Grace.
Will try out Silent Arbiter or Crawlspace on my next playtime. I think it would be a great addition against swarm deck.
Several more suggestions:
You seem to be interested in locking down the board and preventing attackers. Glare of Subdual is great at this, but mostly Dueling Grounds.
Windborn Muse is usually an upgrade over your Archangel of Tithes.
I would consider keeping Caustic Caterpillar and slotting in Ranger of Eos to tutor for it.
I think you should leave Green Sun's Zenith in. It is such a strong card, and you can fetch stuff like Dromoka, Mirri, Ooze, etc.
Speaking of links, here is a Karametra Primer for you to look at! You don't have to include all the list, but stuff like Defense of the Heart along with Sterling Grove/Greater Auramancy seem to synergize with her really well.