The idea for this deck came about as me and a friend were getting tired of playing Commander. The games took too long, people sat on their resources for a million turns until finally someone would "go off." Since our playgroup was adamant about sticking to Commander, however, we had to figure what deck would suit us.
The solution: what if people were forced to act?
Magic primarily gives us one way to achieve this: forcing attacks. Hence, the deck:
1) The main theme is trying to incentivize/force other players to attack, while using sticks and carrots to disincentivize them attacking us. To get around creature-light decks, we have ways to give our opponent creatures and/or turn their permanents into creatures.
2) There is a Defender subtheme, because our Walls ignore our "force to attack" effects. Most of our walls replace themselves, ramp beyond producing a single G or are otherwise worth a card beyond their simple toughness.
3) Besides the above, there is also some standard utility, removal and fixing, as well a pretty cool Reveillark package. Reveillark can target almost all our walls for extra blocking and card draw.
4) The generals are not too important besides allowing us to play WURG, but they do have some synergy: Ludevic encourages attacks not directed at us, while Sidar Kondo + Assault Formation allows us to attack with hard-to-block, high damage creatures.
Suggestions are welcome! Currently the deck is most in need of more ways to forcing action, whether it be by forcing attacks, forcing spellcasting or something else entirely. We do not run stuff like Bullwhip and Heckling Fiends since these are simply too inefficient. We have also shyed away from one-time effects such as Siren's Call.
The Bench - cards that didn't make the cut, but just might get another chance:
Angel's Trumpet ... a really cool card with a fun and unique effect. Sadly, it also taps our walls. Angus Mackenzie ... a great "stick" to discourage enemies from attacking us. Unfortunately as a non-wall creature without evasion, many of our cards force him to attack with ill results. Antagonism ... too inefficient. Bullwhip ... too inefficient. Doran, the Siege Tower ... we can't justify being 5-color just because of this guy, but christ damn we would love to play Doran. Dormant Sliver ... there is a case for this card: it's a wall that replaces itself, something that is surprisingly good in the deck. However, this is the absolute floor of that effect. Heckling Fiends ... too inefficient. Impatience ... while we would LOVE to play more cards that force more than just attacks, dealing 2 damage to players on the few turns where they don't play a spell is too negligible. Imperial Recruiter ... would be absolutely amazing in the deck, but costs more than a fortune. Lightmine Field ... this card can do a lot of stuff. E.g. blow up lands with Living Plane or Revolt. But the card runs counter to the deck's theme since it discourages action. Living Plane ... see Nature's Revolt. March of the Machines ... In contrast to Titania's Song, this lets opponents tap artifacts with activated abilities to avoid attacks. Mnemonic Wall ... too few targets, currently. A real pity. If there was room for ol' Johnny Mnemonic in the deck, there might be cause to play one-time force effects like Siren's Call. Nature's Revolt ... in theory, this is awesome. Turn lands into creatures, force everyone to attack = action heaven. However, tapping their lands for mana allows them to avoid this. Rolling Stones ... doesn't do enough. Shardless Agent ... even if this just plays a Wall and draws us a card, it's actually been testing pretty good, and sometimes it finds Assault Formation which is just great. But... what to cut? Siren's Call ... we don't run this or other one-off force-effects since the effect is too small. With a higher emphasis on spells and recursion, it could work though. Spike Weaver ... See Angus MacKenzie.
I like a lot of what's going on here, especially that the combination of colors gives you a lot more ways to "force the issue," as it were. A few things to start:
You could possibly run Zedruu the Greathearted here to give your opponents things with which to destroy each other, but that would probably entail a reworking of the removal/utility suite and could easily backfire. Still something to think about, though.
Forbidden Orchard is obviously good at fixing your mana but giving away 1/1 spirits is extra good here.
You've got Rage Nimbus listed twice so good news! You've got a free open slot!
With sweet stuff all up and down the curve and so many combinations of creatures which have synergy Birthing Pod looks like it'd be tremendous value here.
Gravity Sphere makes your defenders, most of which don't fly, better while also forcing the issue harder with Sidar Kondo.
You do have a bunch of cards that discourage attacks against you, but I can easily imagine some draws lining up such that your opponents are incentivized to attack you. Some things like Angus Mackenzie or Spike Weaver might be good to have as an emergency kill switch.
Thanks a whole bunch for your suggestions! Gonna ponder on them a while. I really like Sisay and I really, really like Forbidden Orchard (dunno why I didn't think of it myself, seeing as how I played a bunch of Tainted Aether back in my day). As for Mnemonic Wall, you're right, but it's just so hard to find walls/defenders worth a damn. Dazzling Ramparts ain't exactly a bomb either :/
Also, not only have I got Rage Nimbus twice, I also still have Misty Rainforest in the mana base, so I'm in need of another land there as well. Nice catch.
And yeah, Doran the Siege Tower is a ***** to miss out on.
Shardless Agent: heck of a card, but what is it specifically going to do here? The best thing it can find is a Assault Formation if I'm not mistaken, the worst it just plays a wall and draws a card. Might I suggest you change this to the best "Propaganda" effect on the market: Edric, Spymaster of Trest. Jace, Architect of Thought: his plus ability gives everything that attacks -1/-0, not just attacks you, blunting any attack that might have gone another way, possibly invalidating all cards that could "force the issue". Heckling Fiends: This card feels so.... not efficient. Academy rector: she only finds Assault Formation? Is this not better as Enlightened Tutor or Idyllic Tutor?
Forcing the issue: Avatar of Slaughter is expensive, but it forces a game like nothing else. Grenzo, Havoc Raiser and Jeering Homunculus (fits with the high toughness theme) are great ways to force an opponent to attack AND to divert them from you. Dulcet Sirens is even more direct in forcing attacks. Goblin Spymaster also forces your opponents to attack and gives them creatures to do so with. Oracle en-Vec can make your opponents promise to attack or not to attack with cards and create some very interesting combat steps. Illusionist's Gambit and Domineering Will: you dare attack me? Bitter Feud: you guys now hate each other.... have at it.
Decklist updated, many thanks for your contributions.
Oh, by the way Hunding Gjornersen, Angus Mackenzie is an excellent suggestion, but $90 is a little steep, even if I'm technically not on a budget here. I will include him first chance I get, but for now I'll leave him out. Spike Weaver is in, however!
Shardless was mostly because I had a copy and it seemed nice enough, but Edric is marvellous in this deck! Done.
Also included Plea for Guidance rather than Idyllic Tutor (agree that Academy Rector wasn't doing much but hey, could always use more excuses for card advantage) and some of your suggested walls and made a lot of your suggested cuts. Momentous Fall seems lackluster since it uses Power to draw cards. Avatar of Slaughter is already in! Heckling Fiends is very inefficient, yes, but unfortunately there aren't many of those sorts of effects.
As for your suggestions to make the deck more competitive, well, I accept that I'm going to lose to competitive decks. I mostly play limited, Legacy and Modern, but since my playgroup insists on taking out their Commander decks once in a while, I'm in a "when in Rome" sort of situation. So I'm mostly going to skip those suggestions, since I'm not really about to go sign up for Commander tournaments or anything of that sort :). I did implement some of it (like Aura Shards though), and I'll keep your list handy in the future if, when playing, I realize that I'm going to need to include more of it.
Seed the Land and Genesis Chamber have become some of my favorites in a deck I have very similar to this. I can only imagine running a version where Sidar comes down when you want, they'd be a whole lot more fun. Wish I had more to say now, but it's finals....Commenting now so i can follow from ym threads. Totally dig it, looking forward to participating. I know we can draw a lot of the same conclusions with your deck here and mine based around the 4c leader
Given how good Assault Formation is here, how about Muddle the Mixture to search for it and/or stuff a sweeper? Also, speaking of Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis, they might be good here as part of the 99 98. High toughness is certainly a plus even if they don't have defender, and the group-hug aspect gives your opponents more tools to beat each other with.
I had already ordered when you guys, wrote, but both Seed the Land, Genesis Chamber and Muddle the Mixture are excellent suggestions. Will order them first chance I get. Any suggestions as to what to take out?
Prismatic Omen doesn't really seem necessary here as your land base looks pretty good at color fixing. Akroma's Vengeance and Bane of Progress hit kind of a lot of your stuff. I understand the desire for removal/sweepers but since this deck plays to the board so much you'd really have to be in a bad way for those cards to be worth resolving.
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You would never guess, at the terrifying sight of the man, that Hunding was as charming a companion as one could wish for.
I personally think you could cut a defender or two to just push what the deck can do. Some of the blockers are pretty vanilla, I'd honestly cut them just because this theme has been a ton for me and I'm usually looking for something new and interesting to topdeck, idk how important the redundancy is, but personally I get pretty far just with cards like Edric and
Yeah, Jeskai Barricade only works if you've got one of the cantrip walls already so that's probably an easy cut. Colossus of Akros is super expensive and honestly, for that much mana, a huge trampler isn't often worth it. It does give you something to spend Overgrown Battlement/Axebane Guardian mana on, though. Shifting gears, Reliquary Tower is a great EDH card and even the four color decks can support a few colorless utility lands, but do you actually have routine problems with discarding to hand size? I feel like this card gets included in a lot of decks "just because." Finally, Academy Rector is a tremendous rattlesnake and this deck has a bunch of nice things for it to find.
On the subject of Angus Mackenzie being ninety freaking dollars, Imperial Recruiter has a lot of great targets in this list, too. Probably not worth the price tag in this instance, but options are options.
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You would never guess, at the terrifying sight of the man, that Hunding was as charming a companion as one could wish for.
I personally think you could cut a defender or two to just push what the deck can do. Some of the blockers are pretty vanilla, I'd honestly cut them just because this theme has been a ton for me and I'm usually looking for something new and interesting to topdeck, idk how important the redundancy is, but personally I get pretty far just with cards like Edric and
You're probably right, maybe I can make do with all the replaces-itself-walls and a few of the key ones like Vent Sentinel. We'll see come testing - I have plenty of cards to supplant walls with if the deck turns out to run fine with less defenders.
Shifting gears, Reliquary Tower is a great EDH card and even the four color decks can support a few colorless utility lands, but do you actually have routine problems with discarding to hand size?
I figured it was "free" to run considering my mana base is decent, and when I resolve a good Recurring Insight it might come in handy.
Finally, Academy Rector is a tremendous rattlesnake and this deck has a bunch of nice things for it to find.
I had it in the deck, at the start, but took it out due to this advice:
Academy rector: she only finds Assault Formation? Is this not better as Enlightened Tutor or Idyllic Tutor?
The main reason was that I didn't have any ways to kill the rector myself, but I do run Reveillark and I do force combat, meaning the rector could block/discourage attacks at me... damn, I dunno.
On the subject of Angus Mackenzie being ninety freaking dollars, Imperial Recruiter has a lot of great targets in this list, too. Probably not worth the price tag in this instance, but options are options.
Actually, I found out the Italian MacKenzie was available for just 35 USD, so one is one its way! Recruiter... now THAT'S outside of my budget
Spike Weaver is out since I have not been able to find a copy anywhere. It will probably get back in once that happens, and until then, Angus will have to make do.
If I do that, I have another slot. I also still have seventeen defenders in there, including non-optimal stuff like Soulsworn Jury. I might cut even more defenders after testing.
As for the remaining open slot, what do you think about putting Akroma's Vengeance back in, just to have *some* sweeping-power? It can always be cycled. Another option is to take in another removal option - maybe one of the ones suggested by Viroid?
I would also like to find room in the manabase for another basic Island - there deck has become a bit more blue.
You've got more than just Assault Formation to find with Academy Rector, though I guess not as much as I originally thought. Still, there's a lot of utility among the enchantments you do run. Aura Shards is an unbelievably powerful card so being able to tutor for it is great. Grand Melee isn't by itself essential to the deck (at least as far as I understand it), but having an effective additional copy of it is probably good. None of your enchantments really count as "payoffs" for the Rector since you aren't getting a discount on the mana cost, so maybe she is better off as Enlightened Tutor. Tough call. Depending on how wacky you're feeling, there's also Rolling Stones.
Having sweepers in an EDH deck is definitely a good thing. I'm sold on that. Austere Command is good at leaving your stuff alone, and I'm starting to come around on Akroma's Vengeance. If you have so many things in play that you don't want to sweep, as you say it does cycle away.
And now some random thoughts:
Wall of Nets might be funny combined with forced attacking.
Soulsworn Jury is only suboptimal in the sense that you'd rather be running 20 copies of Wall of Blossoms. Having a Remove Soul sitting on the table seems just fine.
With all the legends you're running (plus Angus and even some of your lands) you've got a lot of productive things to do with Minamo, School at Water's Edge. Just imagine being able to activate Captain Sisay twice per turn cycle. Hell, Minamo can even be your first recruit. Might be better than a second basic Island since you're not running Myriad Landscape or Blighted Woodland. Of course, by "better" I mean "more expensive."
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You would never guess, at the terrifying sight of the man, that Hunding was as charming a companion as one could wish for.
I will not suggest cards, but ask you how would your deck work in this scenarios:
Let say you friend is playing marchesa, he then plays dictate of erebos, he is now forced to attack, but as it not convenient he sacrifices those creatures to goblin bombardment since they already have counters on them.
Scenario two:
you friend is playing tasigur, he almost dosen't have any board, only mesmeric orb and maybe 1-2 other permanents. He plays control.
Scenario three:
your friend plays Hanna, she is using a lot of taxing enchantments and artifacts, none of them creatures. Spells now are more difficult to play and the board has many artifacts in play making synergies together.
I will be playing my first live matches with the deck tonight. Missing a few of the cards which are on their way in the mail, but we should still get somewhat of a picture of whether the deck can actually work at all.
Thank you for your continued phenomenal suggestions, Hunding.
- Minamo is definetely great. Can we afford to cut something like Terramorphic Expanse and Evolving Wilds maybe? Another potential land cut is Miren, the Moaning Well.
- Myriad and Blighted seem great in theory, we're just running so few basics that even running Kodama's, Cultivate and Wild-Field Scarecrow seems like enough of a stretch.
- I actually ran Wall of Nets in the original permutation, but cut it since all other Walls do more than just being walls, except for Denial, which is obviously fantastic, and Aether, which potentially is better. What could we cut for nets?
Let say you friend is playing marchesa, he then plays dictate of erebos, he is now forced to attack, but as it not convenient he sacrifices those creatures to goblin bombardment since they already have counters on them.
I have no solution to this board state, but is there one that doesn't take away the theme of the deck? As I told Viroid, the idea here is definetely not to be "competitive", but to make this particular theme function as well as it can.
you friend is playing tasigur, he almost dosen't have any board, only mesmeric orb and maybe 1-2 other permanents. He plays control.
Seed the Land + Forbidden Orchard, baby! We can fetch the first one in a couple of ways, and can even upgrade the 1/1s to 2/2s with Ixidron.
your friend plays Hanna, she is using a lot of taxing enchantments and artifacts, none of them creatures. Spells now are more difficult to play and the board has many artifacts in play making synergies together.
Sweeper + the above.
But I mean, there is no question that running into a competitive combo-deck that plays Eldrazi or whatever, we are dead. Fortunately, I think the playgroup's decks are even less optimized than this thing. Some of them run barely edited copies of the Commander set decks I believe.
That's kind of a problem since almost all this deck's ruckus comes from ruling how combat works. There are two main ways to help against decks that don't cooperate. The first is to give away creatures/creature tokens. The deck already has Forbidden Orchard and Seed the Land for that purpose, but there's also
I highly advise Nature's Revolt. Living Plane is insanely expensive and honestly it's a lot more fun when they have two power. I'm even more interested in your list because the most tutored card in my deck is Sidar. So I really wanna hammer in you trying Lightmine Field. I personally have a much more mutual build and it does so much for me a lot of games end up being players only able to send a land or creature at a player at a time, and games with Sidar were hilarious. You could potentially run a small package of buffing your creature's toughness in exchange for some defenders. I think you could actually eventually shift to 2-3 defenders or none at all and instead just run lots of big butts or recurrable blockers, and run more damage on attack effects. That's when the land (and to extend it as Hunding mentioned, March of the Machines and Opalescence) becomes crazy fun and lets you turn
I like the idea of turning their other permanents into creatures. Titania's Song is and old favorite. I think that wakestone gargoyle isn't woth the slot, because if you attack with walls it's like not attacking at all, that the big difference with assault formation. I would consider either trostani or angelic chorus, they should give you a ton of life.
Well, this thread continues being gold: turning their permanents into creatures is a sweet, sweet idea. Really does something for both theme and efficiency. Living plane is kindda affordable in Italian on Troll & Toad, though unfortunately they're out of stock. However March of the Machines and Opalescence are interesting ideas, and Nature's Revolt is Capital N: iN. Definetely continuing down that route.
I played 5-6 matches in some 4-man commander with the deck so far this week. It is really, really fun. As far as functionality it has mixed success. Against a pretty high tier Rhys deck it was fairly good and very annoying, against less tuned decks it was hilarious, but I lost nearly every game. It is vulnerable to board clear, and though it always affects the game, it takes some work to set up a winning board state. One consistent thing I did notice was that games ended way, waaay sooner than they would have if I had been playing another deck. The deck throws a wrench into normal Commander politics and it almost succeed in forcing players to be proactive. Even if you die first, by that time you've done so much damage that life totals are low. I never lost without all of my opponents being reduced to less than 20 life.
So mission accomplished in that regard.
As far as cards/interactions:
- Angel's Trumpet is out. It taps our own walls... yeah. It's a really fun card with a unique effect that I'd like to keep, but it ruins any kind of hope of the deck being tuned for defence. Also, giving our opponents vigilance is surprisingly annoying. It is even worse considering:
- Players are often incentivized to attack us instead of each other. Some of you saw it coming. I suspect this will get much, much better once Angus and Spike Weaver get in there, but the deck could definetely use more sticks and carrots. Having Crawlspace out feels good, unsurprisingly, as does Gisela and Isperia. Regarding the sphinx, man would it be better if it was 4/6 rather than 6/4. But still, I found myself tutoring for Isperia almost every time I cast Eladamri's Call. She is not a lightning rod like Gisela and as far as defending us, does almost an equal amount of work.
- Defenders worked better than I would have thought. Having those replaces-it-self defenders really smoothes out the early game early-mid game, and they sit there waiting for assault formation for later. If you've got out three walls of varying functionality + something that forces attack, the deck is pretty much where it wants to be. As such I don't think I'll reduce that theme to the extent Welgo suggests, though I do thinking making it a Plan B win con with Assault Formation rather than a central strategy is what I'll be going for. Except for Wall of Denial, I think the vanilla walls like Aether Membrane will be out.
- Just want to reiterate: how did we miss Goblin Spymaster? One of the players lend it to me when we played. It really does do it all. Forces them to attack, gives them creatures to do it with - it even adds multiple permanents that forces them to attack, so they can't just remove our 1 enchantment or whatever.
- Defenders worked better than I would have thought. Having those replaces-it-self defenders really smoothes out the early game early-mid game, and they sit there waiting for assault formation for later.
If you really want to scrape the bottom of the barrel for this kind of effect, there's Dormant Sliver. Nothin' quite like running exactly 1 sliver in a deck...
- Just want to reiterate: how did we miss Goblin Spymaster? One of the players lend it to me when we played. It really does do it all. Forces them to attack, gives them creatures to do it with - it even adds multiple permanents that forces them to attack, so they can't just remove our 1 enchantment or whatever.
It's also another sweet Imperial Recruiter target. My only issue with this card is that each player gets a whole turn cycle, during which people are being encouraged to attack, to chump block with the goblin token before it actually forces them to attack.
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You would never guess, at the terrifying sight of the man, that Hunding was as charming a companion as one could wish for.
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The solution: what if people were forced to act?
Magic primarily gives us one way to achieve this: forcing attacks. Hence, the deck:
1) The main theme is trying to incentivize/force other players to attack, while using sticks and carrots to disincentivize them attacking us. To get around creature-light decks, we have ways to give our opponent creatures and/or turn their permanents into creatures.
2) There is a Defender subtheme, because our Walls ignore our "force to attack" effects. Most of our walls replace themselves, ramp beyond producing a single G or are otherwise worth a card beyond their simple toughness.
3) Besides the above, there is also some standard utility, removal and fixing, as well a pretty cool Reveillark package. Reveillark can target almost all our walls for extra blocking and card draw.
4) The generals are not too important besides allowing us to play WURG, but they do have some synergy: Ludevic encourages attacks not directed at us, while Sidar Kondo + Assault Formation allows us to attack with hard-to-block, high damage creatures.
Suggestions are welcome! Currently the deck is most in need of more ways to forcing action, whether it be by forcing attacks, forcing spellcasting or something else entirely. We do not run stuff like Bullwhip and Heckling Fiends since these are simply too inefficient. We have also shyed away from one-time effects such as Siren's Call.
The list:
1 Ludevic, Necro-Alchemist
2 Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa
Forcing the Action: (9)
3 Avatar of Slaughter
4 Basandra, Battle Seraph
5 Curse of the Nightly Hunt
6 Fumiko the Lowblood
7 Goblin Diplomats
8 Goblin Spymaster
9 Grand Melee
10 Rage Nimbus
11 Warmonger Hellkite
Sticks & Carrots: (12)
12 Collective Restraint
13 Crawlspace
14 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
15 Gahiji, Honored One
16 Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
17 Ghostly Prison
18 Isperia, Supreme Judge
19 Opalescence
20 Propaganda
21 Seed the Land
22 Sphere of Safety
23 Titania's Song
Defenders: (16)
24 Axebane Guardian
25 Carven Caryatid
26 Colossus of Akros
27 Jungle Barrier
28 Overgrown Battlement
29 Soulsworn Jury
30 Sunscape Familiar
31 Sylvan Caryatid
32 Tree of Redemption
33 Vent Sentinel
34 Wakestone Gargoyle
35 Wall of Blossoms
36 Wall of Denial
37 Wall of Mulch
38 Wall of Omens
39 Wild-Field Scarecrow
40 Academy Rector
41 Akroma's Vengeance
42 Aura Shards
43 Assault Formation
44 Austere Command
45 Birthing Pod
46 Captain Sisay
47 Eladamri's Call
48 Eternal Witness
49 Ixidron
50 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
51 Muddle the Mixture
52 Maze of Ith
53 Mulldrifter
54 Recurring Insight
55 Reveillark
56 Sun Titan
57 Wargate
Fixing: (5)
58 Chromatic Lantern
59 Coalition Relic
60 Cultivate
61 Kodama's Reach
62 Solemn Simulacrum
Mana Base: (38)
63 Breeding Pool
64 Canopy Vista
65 Cinder Glade
66 City of Brass
67 Command Tower
68 Exotic Orchard
69 Flooded Strand
70 Forbidden Orchard
71 Forest
72 Forest
73 Frontier Bivouac
74 Hallowed Fountain
75 Island
76 Jungle Shrine
77 Krosan Verge
78 Mana Confluence
79 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
80 Miren, the Moaning Well
81 Mountain
82 Mountain
83 Mystic Monastery
84 Plains
85 Plains
86 Prairie Stream
87 Reliquary Tower
88 Sacred Foundry
89 Seaside Citadel
90 Steam Vents
91 Stomping Ground
92 Temple Garden
93 Temple of Abandon
94 Temple of Enlightenment
95 Temple of Epiphany
96 Temple of Mystery
97 Temple of Plenty
98 Temple of Triumph
99 Windswept Heath
100 Wooded Foothills
The Bench - cards that didn't make the cut, but just might get another chance:
Angel's Trumpet ... a really cool card with a fun and unique effect. Sadly, it also taps our walls.
Angus Mackenzie ... a great "stick" to discourage enemies from attacking us. Unfortunately as a non-wall creature without evasion, many of our cards force him to attack with ill results.
Antagonism ... too inefficient.
Bullwhip ... too inefficient.
Doran, the Siege Tower ... we can't justify being 5-color just because of this guy, but christ damn we would love to play Doran.
Dormant Sliver ... there is a case for this card: it's a wall that replaces itself, something that is surprisingly good in the deck. However, this is the absolute floor of that effect.
Heckling Fiends ... too inefficient.
Impatience ... while we would LOVE to play more cards that force more than just attacks, dealing 2 damage to players on the few turns where they don't play a spell is too negligible.
Imperial Recruiter ... would be absolutely amazing in the deck, but costs more than a fortune.
Lightmine Field ... this card can do a lot of stuff. E.g. blow up lands with Living Plane or Revolt. But the card runs counter to the deck's theme since it discourages action.
Living Plane ... see Nature's Revolt.
March of the Machines ... In contrast to Titania's Song, this lets opponents tap artifacts with activated abilities to avoid attacks.
Mnemonic Wall ... too few targets, currently. A real pity. If there was room for ol' Johnny Mnemonic in the deck, there might be cause to play one-time force effects like Siren's Call.
Nature's Revolt ... in theory, this is awesome. Turn lands into creatures, force everyone to attack = action heaven. However, tapping their lands for mana allows them to avoid this.
Rolling Stones ... doesn't do enough.
Shardless Agent ... even if this just plays a Wall and draws us a card, it's actually been testing pretty good, and sometimes it finds Assault Formation which is just great. But... what to cut?
Siren's Call ... we don't run this or other one-off force-effects since the effect is too small. With a higher emphasis on spells and recursion, it could work though.
Spike Weaver ... See Angus MacKenzie.
Also, not only have I got Rage Nimbus twice, I also still have Misty Rainforest in the mana base, so I'm in need of another land there as well. Nice catch.
And yeah, Doran the Siege Tower is a ***** to miss out on.
Shardless Agent: heck of a card, but what is it specifically going to do here? The best thing it can find is a Assault Formation if I'm not mistaken, the worst it just plays a wall and draws a card. Might I suggest you change this to the best "Propaganda" effect on the market: Edric, Spymaster of Trest.
Jace, Architect of Thought: his plus ability gives everything that attacks -1/-0, not just attacks you, blunting any attack that might have gone another way, possibly invalidating all cards that could "force the issue".
Heckling Fiends: This card feels so.... not efficient.
Academy rector: she only finds Assault Formation? Is this not better as Enlightened Tutor or Idyllic Tutor?
What really jumps out is: what are you going to do vs decks that do no aim to win via combat damage? There are little to no tools to keep combo in check, little to no tools to keep the graveyard in check and little to no tools to combat planeswalkers/enchantments/artifacts. I would look into the "worst" cards that are curently in your deck and remove some of them in favor of cards like: Stonecloaker, Glen Elendra Archmage, Venser, Shaper Savant, Acidic Slime, Bane of Progress, Reclamation Sage, Terastodon, Woodfall Primus, Harmonic Sliver, Mystic Snake, Trygon Predator, Aura of Silence, Council's Judgment, return to Dust, Rest in Peace, Capsize, Mystic Confluence, Swan Song, Chaos Warp, Shattering Spree, vandalblast, Beast Within, Krosan Grip, Song of Dryads, Aura Shards, Bant Charm, Hull Breach...... well, you get the gist I think.
Wall subtheme cards:
Miren, the Moaning Well might be a good addition with all the high toughness creatures running about. Also good against/with mind control effects.
Momentous Fall and Trostani, Selesnya's Voice also fall into this category.
Aether Membrane, wall of Tears: Seems better than some of the other walls you have listed.
Jeskai Barricade: Rebuying Wall of Blossoms or Eternal Witness at instant speed is not the worst thing
Soulsworn Jury: Countering problematic creatures
Stalwart Shield-Bearers: giving two extra damage to each wall you control sounds alright
Sunscape Familiar: discounts half your deck
Tree of Redemption: switch life with the tree, then smack in there for 30+ damage?
Wall of Roots: mana? I don't know on this one
Forcing the issue:
Avatar of Slaughter is expensive, but it forces a game like nothing else.
Grenzo, Havoc Raiser and Jeering Homunculus (fits with the high toughness theme) are great ways to force an opponent to attack AND to divert them from you. Dulcet Sirens is even more direct in forcing attacks.
Goblin Spymaster also forces your opponents to attack and gives them creatures to do so with.
Oracle en-Vec can make your opponents promise to attack or not to attack with cards and create some very interesting combat steps.
Illusionist's Gambit and Domineering Will: you dare attack me?
Bitter Feud: you guys now hate each other.... have at it.
Oh, by the way Hunding Gjornersen, Angus Mackenzie is an excellent suggestion, but $90 is a little steep, even if I'm technically not on a budget here. I will include him first chance I get, but for now I'll leave him out. Spike Weaver is in, however!
FANTASTIC suggestions, thanks!
Shardless was mostly because I had a copy and it seemed nice enough, but Edric is marvellous in this deck! Done.
Also included Plea for Guidance rather than Idyllic Tutor (agree that Academy Rector wasn't doing much but hey, could always use more excuses for card advantage) and some of your suggested walls and made a lot of your suggested cuts. Momentous Fall seems lackluster since it uses Power to draw cards. Avatar of Slaughter is already in! Heckling Fiends is very inefficient, yes, but unfortunately there aren't many of those sorts of effects.
As for your suggestions to make the deck more competitive, well, I accept that I'm going to lose to competitive decks. I mostly play limited, Legacy and Modern, but since my playgroup insists on taking out their Commander decks once in a while, I'm in a "when in Rome" sort of situation. So I'm mostly going to skip those suggestions, since I'm not really about to go sign up for Commander tournaments or anything of that sort :). I did implement some of it (like Aura Shards though), and I'll keep your list handy in the future if, when playing, I realize that I'm going to need to include more of it.
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9998. High toughness is certainly a plus even if they don't have defender, and the group-hug aspect gives your opponents more tools to beat each other with.Edit: Bullwhip
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
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On the subject of Angus Mackenzie being ninety freaking dollars, Imperial Recruiter has a lot of great targets in this list, too. Probably not worth the price tag in this instance, but options are options.
You're probably right, maybe I can make do with all the replaces-itself-walls and a few of the key ones like Vent Sentinel. We'll see come testing - I have plenty of cards to supplant walls with if the deck turns out to run fine with less defenders.
I figured it was "free" to run considering my mana base is decent, and when I resolve a good Recurring Insight it might come in handy.
I had it in the deck, at the start, but took it out due to this advice:
The main reason was that I didn't have any ways to kill the rector myself, but I do run Reveillark and I do force combat, meaning the rector could block/discourage attacks at me... damn, I dunno.
Actually, I found out the Italian MacKenzie was available for just 35 USD, so one is one its way! Recruiter... now THAT'S outside of my budget
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+Linvala
+Angus MacKenzie
+Academy Rector
+Evolving Wilds
-Jeskai Barricade
-Spike Weaver
-Reliquary Tower
-Heckling Fiends
-Psychic Membrane
Spike Weaver is out since I have not been able to find a copy anywhere. It will probably get back in once that happens, and until then, Angus will have to make do.
If I do that, I have another slot. I also still have seventeen defenders in there, including non-optimal stuff like Soulsworn Jury. I might cut even more defenders after testing.
As for the remaining open slot, what do you think about putting Akroma's Vengeance back in, just to have *some* sweeping-power? It can always be cycled. Another option is to take in another removal option - maybe one of the ones suggested by Viroid?
I would also like to find room in the manabase for another basic Island - there deck has become a bit more blue.
Having sweepers in an EDH deck is definitely a good thing. I'm sold on that. Austere Command is good at leaving your stuff alone, and I'm starting to come around on Akroma's Vengeance. If you have so many things in play that you don't want to sweep, as you say it does cycle away.
And now some random thoughts:
Let say you friend is playing marchesa, he then plays dictate of erebos, he is now forced to attack, but as it not convenient he sacrifices those creatures to goblin bombardment since they already have counters on them.
Scenario two:
you friend is playing tasigur, he almost dosen't have any board, only mesmeric orb and maybe 1-2 other permanents. He plays control.
Scenario three:
your friend plays Hanna, she is using a lot of taxing enchantments and artifacts, none of them creatures. Spells now are more difficult to play and the board has many artifacts in play making synergies together.
Thank you for your continued phenomenal suggestions, Hunding.
- Minamo is definetely great. Can we afford to cut something like Terramorphic Expanse and Evolving Wilds maybe? Another potential land cut is Miren, the Moaning Well.
- Myriad and Blighted seem great in theory, we're just running so few basics that even running Kodama's, Cultivate and Wild-Field Scarecrow seems like enough of a stretch.
- I actually ran Wall of Nets in the original permutation, but cut it since all other Walls do more than just being walls, except for Denial, which is obviously fantastic, and Aether, which potentially is better. What could we cut for nets?
I have no solution to this board state, but is there one that doesn't take away the theme of the deck? As I told Viroid, the idea here is definetely not to be "competitive", but to make this particular theme function as well as it can.
Seed the Land + Forbidden Orchard, baby! We can fetch the first one in a couple of ways, and can even upgrade the 1/1s to 2/2s with Ixidron.
Sweeper + the above.
But I mean, there is no question that running into a competitive combo-deck that plays Eldrazi or whatever, we are dead. Fortunately, I think the playgroup's decks are even less optimized than this thing. Some of them run barely edited copies of the Commander set decks I believe.
EDIT: DOH, Viroid already suggested it! Thanks mate, dunno how I missed that.
That's kind of a problem since almost all this deck's ruckus comes from ruling how combat works. There are two main ways to help against decks that don't cooperate. The first is to give away creatures/creature tokens. The deck already has Forbidden Orchard and Seed the Land for that purpose, but there's also
One could also run cards to force every players' strategy to converge on creature combat. That is, turn all their stuff into creatures:
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I played 5-6 matches in some 4-man commander with the deck so far this week. It is really, really fun. As far as functionality it has mixed success. Against a pretty high tier Rhys deck it was fairly good and very annoying, against less tuned decks it was hilarious, but I lost nearly every game. It is vulnerable to board clear, and though it always affects the game, it takes some work to set up a winning board state. One consistent thing I did notice was that games ended way, waaay sooner than they would have if I had been playing another deck. The deck throws a wrench into normal Commander politics and it almost succeed in forcing players to be proactive. Even if you die first, by that time you've done so much damage that life totals are low. I never lost without all of my opponents being reduced to less than 20 life.
So mission accomplished in that regard.
As far as cards/interactions:
- Angel's Trumpet is out. It taps our own walls... yeah. It's a really fun card with a unique effect that I'd like to keep, but it ruins any kind of hope of the deck being tuned for defence. Also, giving our opponents vigilance is surprisingly annoying. It is even worse considering:
- Players are often incentivized to attack us instead of each other. Some of you saw it coming. I suspect this will get much, much better once Angus and Spike Weaver get in there, but the deck could definetely use more sticks and carrots. Having Crawlspace out feels good, unsurprisingly, as does Gisela and Isperia. Regarding the sphinx, man would it be better if it was 4/6 rather than 6/4. But still, I found myself tutoring for Isperia almost every time I cast Eladamri's Call. She is not a lightning rod like Gisela and as far as defending us, does almost an equal amount of work.
- Defenders worked better than I would have thought. Having those replaces-it-self defenders really smoothes out the early game early-mid game, and they sit there waiting for assault formation for later. If you've got out three walls of varying functionality + something that forces attack, the deck is pretty much where it wants to be. As such I don't think I'll reduce that theme to the extent Welgo suggests, though I do thinking making it a Plan B win con with Assault Formation rather than a central strategy is what I'll be going for. Except for Wall of Denial, I think the vanilla walls like Aether Membrane will be out.
- Just want to reiterate: how did we miss Goblin Spymaster? One of the players lend it to me when we played. It really does do it all. Forces them to attack, gives them creatures to do it with - it even adds multiple permanents that forces them to attack, so they can't just remove our 1 enchantment or whatever.
I can't believe we all missed this. Wow.
If you really want to scrape the bottom of the barrel for this kind of effect, there's Dormant Sliver. Nothin' quite like running exactly 1 sliver in a deck...
It's also another sweet Imperial Recruiter target. My only issue with this card is that each player gets a whole turn cycle, during which people are being encouraged to attack, to chump block with the goblin token before it actually forces them to attack.