Time to post a decklist. This is my first "Complete" deck for Commander, and by complete, I mean I own every card on my original decklist (with modifications with new sets of course) without using filler cards for stuff I couldn't find or afford at the time. Now that it's done, I want to fine tune, move out weak/suspect cards, and upgrade to better versions of cards that make more sense for my theme. I started a thread in the main commander forum on what I should replace Fellwar Stone with, so, here's the full deck to start:
So, the deck is pretty straightforward. Early Ramp into gradual token production, into double/triple the tokens, then swing for gold and kill the table. The deck can pull some pretty incredible random wins out of nowhere with Beastmaster Ascension or Craterhoof Behemoth, or just with making my army indestructible with Eldrazi Monument or Avacyn, Angel of Hope.
Opening hands are pretty solid in this deck. I rarely need to mulligan, only if I rip no land or all high CMC cards and little mana sources. I also rarely rush Rhys out unless I dont have a reasonable token creator early, no turn 2/3 plays, or nothing CMC 3 or lower in my opening hand and first couple of draws. I often like to wait until late game to cast him, with something out or in hand to protect my field for a turn, so I can then double my tokens on my next turn.
Not, the other part of this is wanting to fine tune the deck, remove cards that are underperforming or don't fit at all in the deck well, and replace them with better options. These cards i'm considering after looking at a few deck lists on here:
I have a small list of cards that I would like to get into this deck, but are generally too expensive (either period, or for what it does). I have a few pricey cards in my deck, but most of them I got when they were very inexpensive. $200 for a Gaea's Cradle is out of my price range right now, unless I did some serious saving.
These cards are suspect, since they either do very little when played, or I never get an instance of using it effectively. Acidic Slime is a card I don't know that I need to run at it's CMC. The Deathtouch is rarely relevant for me, and I also rarely use it for it's Land mode, since I'm running Ghost Quarter and Strip Mine already. Archangel of Thune is something I don't play often, and I certainly have never searched for it with Ring of Three Wishes. It has been relevant in 1 game, where it's incrimental boosts to my army won the game, but it's one out of probably hundreds of games. Dragon Throne of Tarkir is a great idea in theory when I have a late game beast like Avacyn, Angel of Hope or Verdant Force out, but I feel like I never get it when I have a relevant creature, meaning it's usually a dead card. Finally, I'm starting to think Sakura-Tribe Elder may be better as a card that can fetch me up a dual land instead, like Nature's Lore or Farseek.
UPDATE 4/6/16: I made a 3 card change which is now reflected in the original deck list. Added a change log below the deck list.
UPDATE 4/14/16: I made another 5 card change which is now reflected in the original deck list. Edited Change Log
UPDATE 5/14/16: Got my Seedborn Muse foil finally, dropped Acidic Slime for it. Also got a Swords to Plowshares foil!
As I said in your other thread, Fellwar Stone is really weak here. Sol Ring is a million times better. I wouldn't run artifact ramp here with the possible exception of sol ring. In my Hazezon Tamar deck I don't run any mana rocks, although I have considered sol ring, and have been very happy with green ramp. Priest of Titania can make big mana easily with your general. Wood Elves is a Nature's Lore with a body. Creatures are nice because you can tutor for them easier with something like Chord of Calling (which you should consider) and recur with Sun Titan or Emeria Shepherd.
Martyr's Cause is hilarious. It straight up shuts down some decks with enough tokens. It depends on your meta and what you are up against often, but it's very good for me.
With a slow token production deck like this your big concerns are wraths and just being consistently shut down by control decks. It's all about speed, ability to survive wraths, and how fast you can rebuild your board position after one. A million token producers don't do anything if you can't build up a big enough board position to win.
Take a hard look at your planeswalkers and decide if they're pulling weight. They're cool but very vulnerable in this format. Doubling Season makes them more enticing, but they need to be able to make an impact the turn they come down without it. They don't typically last long.
I think these are all fine options. Seedborn Muse is the best and something you should really look to pick up. Just being able to double tokens EVERY turn with Rhys gets out of control very quickly. You don't run a lot of other enablers but pretty much any of them become a big threat with Muse in play. I would say Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is the next best option. One of the things I struggle with is creature control and this can keep a lot of problematic commanders off the table while pumping your army and having the benefits of being a creature. Luminarch Ascension is the last of the must pick up cards. It's just incredibly efficient at what it does. All the rest are fine cards as well and I would at least test them out. Avenger of Zendikar is also very strong as Hakim mentioned.
Gaea's Cradle is nice to have but not necessary and can create some oppressive game states. Unless your playgroup is to the point where you need it you'll probably have more fun without it and it can give you a long term goal to pick one up at some point. The other cards you listed really aren't necessary and/or have easy replacements. I would miss Acidic Slime but since you aren't running any creature tutors you probably have better options.
Congrats on the first deck, this was my first commander as well.
I'm definately going to look into some of these potential replacements, and now that you think of it, the only time Ajani has really stood strong is when I can drop him with Doubling Season and ultimate right away.
The only reason I'm really considering cutting Acidic Slime is that I have 2 Lands that can hit lands, and then Aura Shards for the other part of the effect, and I could swap in something much more powerful for it.
-Slime + Seedborn Muse
-Ajani + Elesh Norn
-Dragon Throne + Avenger of Zendikar
-Archangel + Lumiarch Ascension
-Fellwar Stone + Sol Ring or Priest of Titania
-Tribe Elder + Nature's Lore
Also, while this isn't my first or only deck, but its the first one that I actually finished a full deck list on. All my other decks are using "filler cards" so I can play them until I can get what I need for them.
I love the idea of both of those cards. Martyr's Bond would truly prevent people from doing a board wipe without removing it first, because with enough tokens they would be left with nothing, and I do like Martyr's Cause too for some spot protection. I'm not sure what I would drop for them. Right now Elspeth Tirel is in a testing phase, so if she doesn't work out, I could cut her for one. Not sure on anything else though.
Since you're running sylvan library I'd look at Abundance because reasons.
Also Elesh should be in here for sure, that -2/-2 is some brutal. And seedborn is another one to look at, especially if you can grab a Winding Canyons to go with it.
I have acquired a Second Harvest from my Pre-release kit, and am also looking to add Westvale Cult Leader and Fortified Village from Shadows over Innistrad. With my other changes I want to make once I get the cards, this is what i'm looking to change:
So, my reasoning on Honden and Swarm. Honden is definately a weaker card, as already pointed out by almost all of you. It's kind of a pet card in the deck, because I love the Kamigawa plane and the tokens are hard to find, but, I already have much better token producers that make a token a turn at the same or less mana in the deck (And numerous of them). So I'm going to swap it for Westvale Cult Leader. It's 1 less mana, takes 1 more turn to work in most cases, and can provide a massive creature that grows every turn with it's token produced. And, Second Harvest replacing Sprout Swarm is probably a change that could be bad, depending on the situation. The main reasoning behind it, is Sprout Swarm shines best when I have a lot of tokens on the board already, and Second Harvest, for 1 less mana, gets me MUCH MORE for my mana, and doesnt require me to tap down my army to keep playing it. Second Harvest, however, cannot start to make me an army like Sprout Swarm could.
I haven't made this change yet, because I want to really try to figure out if theres another card I can cut before Sprout Swarm.
Time to post a decklist. This is my first "Complete" deck for Commander, and by complete, I mean I own every card on my original decklist (with modifications with new sets of course) without using filler cards for stuff I couldn't find or afford at the time. Now that it's done, I want to fine tune, move out weak/suspect cards, and upgrade to better versions of cards that make more sense for my theme. I started a thread in the main commander forum on what I should replace Fellwar Stone with, so, here's the full deck to start:
Number = Converted Mana Cost
2 Hanweir Militia Captain (FOIL)
2 Kazandu Tuskcaller
2 Priest of Titania
3 Dauntless Escort (FOIL)
3 Eternal Witness
3 Frontline Medic
4 Jazal Goldmane
4 Loxodon Hierarch
4 Master of the Wild Hunt
4 Odric, Master Tactician
4 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Spike Weaver
4 Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
5 Seedborn Muse (FOIL)
5 Ant Queen
5 Mycoloth
7 Avenger of Zendikar
7 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite (FOIL)
8 Avacyn, Angel of Hope (FOIL)
8 Craterhoof Behemoth
8 Verdant Force (FOIL)
PLANESWALKERS
4 Elspeth, Knight-Errant (FOIL)
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
5 Elspeth Tirel
5 Garruk, Primal Hunter
6 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
ARTIFACTS
1 Skullclamp
1 Sol Ring
5 Eldrazi Monument
5 Mind's Eye
5 Ring of Three Wishes
2 Luminarch Ascension (FOIL)
2 Night Soil
2 Sylvan Library
3 Aura Shards
3 Awakening Zone
3 Beastmaster Ascension
3 Fecundity
4 From Beyond (FOIL)
4 Glare of Subdual
4 Growing Ranks
4 Parallel Lives
5 Doubling Season
5 Mirari's Wake
6 Collective Blessing
6 Mana Reflection
SORCERIES/INSTANTS
2 Regrowth
3 Cultivate
3 Kodama's Reach
4 Wrath of God
6 Nomads' Assembly
7 Hour of Reckoning
10 Storm Herd
2x Martial Coup
3x Entreat the Angels (FOIL)
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares (FOIL)
3 Beast Within
3 Oblation
3 Rootborn Defenses
4 Second Harvest (FOIL)
3x White Sun's Zenith
0 Savannah
0 Temple Garden
0 Windswept Heath
0 Terramorphic Expanse
0 Evolving Wilds (FOIL)
0 Krosan Verge
0 Myriad Landscape
0 Sunpetal Grove
0 Fortified Village (FOIL)
0 Temple of Plenty (FOIL)
0 Canopy Vista
0 Selesnya Sanctuary
0 Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree (FOIL)
0 Kjeldoran Outpost
0 Grove of the Guardian (FOIL)
0 Strip Mine
0 Ghost Quarter
0 Blighted Woodland
0 Gavony Township
0 Arcane Lighthouse
0 Tranquil Thicket
8 Plains
8 Forest
CHANGE LOG
4/6/16
- Fellwar Stone
- Sakura-Tribe Elder
- Ajani Steadfast
+ Sol Ring
+ Prist of Titania
+ Avenger of Zendikar
4/14/16
- Sprout Swarm
- Honden of Life's Web
- Archangel of Thune
- Dragon Throne of Tarkir
- Secludded Steppe
+ Hanweir Militia Captain
+ Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
+ Luminarch Ascension
+ Second Harvest
+ Fortified Village
5/14/16
- Acidic Slime
+ Seedborn Muse
So, the deck is pretty straightforward. Early Ramp into gradual token production, into double/triple the tokens, then swing for gold and kill the table. The deck can pull some pretty incredible random wins out of nowhere with Beastmaster Ascension or Craterhoof Behemoth, or just with making my army indestructible with Eldrazi Monument or Avacyn, Angel of Hope.
Opening hands are pretty solid in this deck. I rarely need to mulligan, only if I rip no land or all high CMC cards and little mana sources. I also rarely rush Rhys out unless I dont have a reasonable token creator early, no turn 2/3 plays, or nothing CMC 3 or lower in my opening hand and first couple of draws. I often like to wait until late game to cast him, with something out or in hand to protect my field for a turn, so I can then double my tokens on my next turn.
Not, the other part of this is wanting to fine tune the deck, remove cards that are underperforming or don't fit at all in the deck well, and replace them with better options. These cards i'm considering after looking at a few deck lists on here:
3 Twilight Drover
3 Arachnogenesis
4 Martyr's Cause
5 Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury
I have a small list of cards that I would like to get into this deck, but are generally too expensive (either period, or for what it does). I have a few pricey cards in my deck, but most of them I got when they were very inexpensive. $200 for a Gaea's Cradle is out of my price range right now, unless I did some serious saving.
0 Gaea's Cradle
2 Three Visits
0 Wasteland (Replace Ghost Quarter)
And finally, I probably should be running Avenger of Zendikar in this deck, and may make a change this week and get it in there.
5 Archangel of Thune
5 Acidic Slime
These cards are suspect, since they either do very little when played, or I never get an instance of using it effectively. Acidic Slime is a card I don't know that I need to run at it's CMC. The Deathtouch is rarely relevant for me, and I also rarely use it for it's Land mode, since I'm running Ghost Quarter and Strip Mine already. Archangel of Thune is something I don't play often, and I certainly have never searched for it with Ring of Three Wishes. It has been relevant in 1 game, where it's incrimental boosts to my army won the game, but it's one out of probably hundreds of games. Dragon Throne of Tarkir is a great idea in theory when I have a late game beast like Avacyn, Angel of Hope or Verdant Force out, but I feel like I never get it when I have a relevant creature, meaning it's usually a dead card. Finally, I'm starting to think Sakura-Tribe Elder may be better as a card that can fetch me up a dual land instead, like Nature's Lore or Farseek.
UPDATE 4/6/16: I made a 3 card change which is now reflected in the original deck list. Added a change log below the deck list.
UPDATE 4/14/16: I made another 5 card change which is now reflected in the original deck list. Edited Change Log
UPDATE 5/14/16: Got my Seedborn Muse foil finally, dropped Acidic Slime for it. Also got a Swords to Plowshares foil!
Legacy - GW Enchantress
Modern - U Urzatron (In construction)
Multiplayer - B ZOMBIES
Casual - B Suicide Black
Casual - WURx Krark-Clan Ironworks
Pauper - URBx Affinity
Pauper - B Pestilence
Pauper - W Steel Soldiers
EDH - W Isamaru, Hound of Konda 1V1
EDH - GRB Kresh the Bloodbraided
EDH - GW Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
EDH - UR Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
EDH - RB Lyzolda, The Blood Witch
EDH - UW Bruna, Light of Alabaster (Reworking)
EDH - UB Grimgrin, Corpse-Born
EDH - UG Vorel of the Hull Clade
EDH - WUG Phelddagrif
EDH - BGR Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
Pauper EDH - G Garruk's Packleader
Pauper EDH - RG Bloodbraid Elf
CUBE:
500 Peasant Cube (52% Foil) Cube Tutor Page
Avenger of Zendikar is powerful. Especially compared to Honden of Life's Web, which seems weaker than Avenger. Or Rampaging Baloths. Or Emeria Angel.
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is also really good. I see her pulling more weight in here than Ajani Steadfast.
Twilight Drover is pretty solid. Requiem Angel also does a similar job but is better against wraths.
Martyr's Cause is hilarious. It straight up shuts down some decks with enough tokens. It depends on your meta and what you are up against often, but it's very good for me.
With a slow token production deck like this your big concerns are wraths and just being consistently shut down by control decks. It's all about speed, ability to survive wraths, and how fast you can rebuild your board position after one. A million token producers don't do anything if you can't build up a big enough board position to win.
Take a hard look at your planeswalkers and decide if they're pulling weight. They're cool but very vulnerable in this format. Doubling Season makes them more enticing, but they need to be able to make an impact the turn they come down without it. They don't typically last long.
3 Twilight Drover
5 Seedborn Muse
7 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Luminarch Ascension
4 Martyr's Cause
2 Nature's Lore
I think these are all fine options. Seedborn Muse is the best and something you should really look to pick up. Just being able to double tokens EVERY turn with Rhys gets out of control very quickly. You don't run a lot of other enablers but pretty much any of them become a big threat with Muse in play. I would say Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is the next best option. One of the things I struggle with is creature control and this can keep a lot of problematic commanders off the table while pumping your army and having the benefits of being a creature. Luminarch Ascension is the last of the must pick up cards. It's just incredibly efficient at what it does. All the rest are fine cards as well and I would at least test them out. Avenger of Zendikar is also very strong as Hakim mentioned.
Gaea's Cradle is nice to have but not necessary and can create some oppressive game states. Unless your playgroup is to the point where you need it you'll probably have more fun without it and it can give you a long term goal to pick one up at some point. The other cards you listed really aren't necessary and/or have easy replacements. I would miss Acidic Slime but since you aren't running any creature tutors you probably have better options.
Congrats on the first deck, this was my first commander as well.
I'm definately going to look into some of these potential replacements, and now that you think of it, the only time Ajani has really stood strong is when I can drop him with Doubling Season and ultimate right away.
The only reason I'm really considering cutting Acidic Slime is that I have 2 Lands that can hit lands, and then Aura Shards for the other part of the effect, and I could swap in something much more powerful for it.
Seriously considering Nature's Lore, Priest of Titania, or Sol Ring over Fellwar Stone and finding cuts for Seedborn Muse, Avenger of Zendikar, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, and Luminarch Ascension
May be able to do
-Slime + Seedborn Muse
-Ajani + Elesh Norn
-Dragon Throne + Avenger of Zendikar
-Archangel + Lumiarch Ascension
-Fellwar Stone + Sol Ring or Priest of Titania
-Tribe Elder + Nature's Lore
Also, while this isn't my first or only deck, but its the first one that I actually finished a full deck list on. All my other decks are using "filler cards" so I can play them until I can get what I need for them.
Legacy - GW Enchantress
Modern - U Urzatron (In construction)
Multiplayer - B ZOMBIES
Casual - B Suicide Black
Casual - WURx Krark-Clan Ironworks
Pauper - URBx Affinity
Pauper - B Pestilence
Pauper - W Steel Soldiers
EDH - W Isamaru, Hound of Konda 1V1
EDH - GRB Kresh the Bloodbraided
EDH - GW Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
EDH - UR Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
EDH - RB Lyzolda, The Blood Witch
EDH - UW Bruna, Light of Alabaster (Reworking)
EDH - UB Grimgrin, Corpse-Born
EDH - UG Vorel of the Hull Clade
EDH - WUG Phelddagrif
EDH - BGR Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
Pauper EDH - G Garruk's Packleader
Pauper EDH - RG Bloodbraid Elf
CUBE:
500 Peasant Cube (52% Foil) Cube Tutor Page
Karona, False God | Sliver King | Horde of Notions | Marchesa, the Black Rose | Rhys the Redeemed | Selvala, Explorer Returned | Angus Mackenale
Vela the Night-Clad | Kaalia of the Vast | Merieke Ri Berit | Jhoira of the Ghitu | Ashling the Pilgrim | Arcum Dagsson
Ertai, Wizard Adept | Glissa, the Traitor | Oona, Queen of the Fae
I love the idea of both of those cards. Martyr's Bond would truly prevent people from doing a board wipe without removing it first, because with enough tokens they would be left with nothing, and I do like Martyr's Cause too for some spot protection. I'm not sure what I would drop for them. Right now Elspeth Tirel is in a testing phase, so if she doesn't work out, I could cut her for one. Not sure on anything else though.
Legacy - GW Enchantress
Modern - U Urzatron (In construction)
Multiplayer - B ZOMBIES
Casual - B Suicide Black
Casual - WURx Krark-Clan Ironworks
Pauper - URBx Affinity
Pauper - B Pestilence
Pauper - W Steel Soldiers
EDH - W Isamaru, Hound of Konda 1V1
EDH - GRB Kresh the Bloodbraided
EDH - GW Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
EDH - UR Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
EDH - RB Lyzolda, The Blood Witch
EDH - UW Bruna, Light of Alabaster (Reworking)
EDH - UB Grimgrin, Corpse-Born
EDH - UG Vorel of the Hull Clade
EDH - WUG Phelddagrif
EDH - BGR Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
Pauper EDH - G Garruk's Packleader
Pauper EDH - RG Bloodbraid Elf
CUBE:
500 Peasant Cube (52% Foil) Cube Tutor Page
Also Elesh should be in here for sure, that -2/-2 is some brutal. And seedborn is another one to look at, especially if you can grab a Winding Canyons to go with it.
- Acidic Slime
- Archangel of Thune
- Dragon Throne of Tarkir
- Honden of Life's Web
- Sprout Swarm
+ Seedborn Muse
+ Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
+ Luminarch Ascension
+ Second Harvest
+ Westvale Cult Leader
So, my reasoning on Honden and Swarm. Honden is definately a weaker card, as already pointed out by almost all of you. It's kind of a pet card in the deck, because I love the Kamigawa plane and the tokens are hard to find, but, I already have much better token producers that make a token a turn at the same or less mana in the deck (And numerous of them). So I'm going to swap it for Westvale Cult Leader. It's 1 less mana, takes 1 more turn to work in most cases, and can provide a massive creature that grows every turn with it's token produced. And, Second Harvest replacing Sprout Swarm is probably a change that could be bad, depending on the situation. The main reasoning behind it, is Sprout Swarm shines best when I have a lot of tokens on the board already, and Second Harvest, for 1 less mana, gets me MUCH MORE for my mana, and doesnt require me to tap down my army to keep playing it. Second Harvest, however, cannot start to make me an army like Sprout Swarm could.
I haven't made this change yet, because I want to really try to figure out if theres another card I can cut before Sprout Swarm.
I am also considering another pair of cards, but don't know if they're worth it or what to cut for them. Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury and Arachnogenesis
Legacy - GW Enchantress
Modern - U Urzatron (In construction)
Multiplayer - B ZOMBIES
Casual - B Suicide Black
Casual - WURx Krark-Clan Ironworks
Pauper - URBx Affinity
Pauper - B Pestilence
Pauper - W Steel Soldiers
EDH - W Isamaru, Hound of Konda 1V1
EDH - GRB Kresh the Bloodbraided
EDH - GW Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
EDH - UR Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
EDH - RB Lyzolda, The Blood Witch
EDH - UW Bruna, Light of Alabaster (Reworking)
EDH - UB Grimgrin, Corpse-Born
EDH - UG Vorel of the Hull Clade
EDH - WUG Phelddagrif
EDH - BGR Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
Pauper EDH - G Garruk's Packleader
Pauper EDH - RG Bloodbraid Elf
CUBE:
500 Peasant Cube (52% Foil) Cube Tutor Page