I like the guy. He's got moxie. But he's also got a bit of overlap in style with an Actually Good Orzhov commander and he doesn't necessarily play to the colors' strengths. So what's Orzhov got going for it over other combinations? I'M GLAD YOU ASKED
1) An absolutely medieval amount of removal.
2) Strong, broad tutors paired with quality specific tutors.
3) Token generation and manipulation.
To start with I'm going to ignore most of that. "But that's stupid!" you say. Probably. But I want to see what the man can do by himself before I dip too heavily into the well of Orzhov.dec cards everyone knows by heart. I want to get into what space he can carve out himself to see how truly unique and distinct he is.
Now EDH is a personal thing. I understand that. However even the chillest of casual players can get frustrated by a commander that underperforms for the deck that's been built. Sometimes one commander is simply better at a playstyle than another. Especially in a color combination as broadly slow and disruptable as Orzhov can be.
If you want to play a form of enchantress you should probably play Selenia.
If you want to goof with tokens/actually win with any regularity you should probably play little Teysa.
If you want to go small and maximize early combat you should probably play Athreos.
If you want to try to grind out a slow win in the mid to possibly late game you should probably play Ghost Dad or maybe but probably not Return of Ghost Dad.
If you want to try a kitchen sink combo with a handful of Voltron you should probably play big Teysa while shoving bamboo shoots under your fingernails.
If you want to take three turns at a time to do anything substantive you should probably play Triad of Fates while openly wondering what your life has come to.
If you want to show everyone that you bought the original precons you should probably play Vish Kal.
If you want to vomit into a deckbox and call it macaroni you should probably play Daxos.
How does Karlov fit into this? I'm hoping the way he specifically encourages lifegain can be utilized in way that can succeed outside of a traditional pillowfort setting. So let's try to Weaponize The Life Total!
These balances seem off.
Maybe! It's feeling pretty good right now though.
No tutors? Really?
I want to see if I can get away with replacing them with life-draining dig spells.
I'm in a competitive meta and am looking for a way to bring Karlov into the playgroup. What can you recommend for high-end changes to this list? Click here!
Why aren't you trying out things like Righteous Cause, Polluted Bonds, Defiant Bloodlord, etc.?
Most if not all of those cards will have their time in this deck eventually. Once I get a good feel for the mana balance I'll start committing more to higher cost cards if I think I need them.
What about {better but higher CMC version of card on list}?
I like to start low CMC with Orzhov. Doesn't mean I'll stay that way later if things need tuning.
I see you have the old standby of Exquisite Blood and Sanguine Bond going on here. This isn't a question.
I like both cards individually for this deck and unless I'm facing off against Azami and Marath (HI AIRITHNE) if I find one I won't be in a rush to find the other. That combo has known value. If I have to rely on it to win here then I'll know I need to change directions.
I don't understand why you aren't running Test of Endurance or Felidar Sovereign.
Excuse me, those are Stay At High Life Cards. I don't see how they properly Weaponize The Life Total.
Rite of Consumption's already on the list, and Final Strike is the weakest of the flings but I want to use it anyway. I think between Karlov, Thief of Blood, and the Serra Avatar that's inexplicably not on my list yet it will have enough value.
All the incremental lifegain really wants me to suggest lich/necropotence/nefarious lich. Incredibly dangerous, but oh the hilarity that ensues.
I should probably already have Necropotence in there. It should probably replace Necrologia. Probably.
Nefarious Lich is super tempting. I am very, very tempted. My group runs so much spot removal that it's virtually suicide to even consider it but that just adds to the appeal.
What about False Cure to weaponize others' lifegain? Or to weaponize Beacon of Immortality. Without tutors, it may be harder to pull off, but wow, when it works!
Actually, blind obedience and alhammarret's archive probably do have applications here, though I have to admit that I love the interaction with lich/nefarious lich and archive. I may take advantage of that one myself.
What about False Cure to weaponize others' lifegain? Or to weaponize Beacon of Immortality. Without tutors, it may be harder to pull off, but wow, when it works!
I suggested Angelic Chorus becauseyou had mentioned Serra Avatar in one of your comments. The two together are funny, especially if you can get the Avatar to connect.
I suggested Angelic Chorus becauseyou had mentioned Serra Avatar in one of your comments. The two together are funny, especially if you can get the Avatar to connect.
I like what you are doing with this deck. Giving me some good ideas for mine, which was going to be be more about the extortion mechanic and gaining life that way.
I like what you are doing with this deck. Giving me some good ideas for mine, which was going to be be more about the extortion mechanic and gaining life that way.
I think extort has a lot of potential in this deck! Personally I want to try bigger swings and lifesplosions because that's the kind of mood I'm in.
More specifically in a control/prison shell with a crushing amount of removal I think extort would be a very good method of lifegain bordering on the best available mechanic. It would run slower than the pure aggro builds where Karlov skyrockets immediately but I think it would be more reliable against non-hard combo decks.
The deck (ver 1.2) got a good clean win! There were knockouts by commander damage, a fling, and a Roiling Horror that was ~1,300/~1,300.
I'm weighing my options between sliding a few boardwipes into the deck or just sitting back and making other people play janitor given my win condition options.
Anything in terms of updates? I'm watching this closely, love the idea.
I don't play as much EDH as I used to so I don't go through the volume of games I need as quickly to really test out certain themes and cards. Having said that here are some quick hits:
- Trying more, cheaper mana rocks
- Minion of the Wastes, as much as I love him, seems to be the low man on the totem pole. Removing him would also make Angelic Chorus weaker.
- Testing the removal of the bigger lifelinkcreatures in exchange for angels like Angelic Skirmisher and Victory's Herald
- I'm a little less sure of the twoAjanis now than I was before but they'll likely bob in and out of my list over time
What about Sun Droplet? I like this card for a Karlov deck because it permit to gain life every turn, seems good in multi
Sun Droplet is faaaaaaantastic at maximizing Karlov and Archangel of Thune triggers and pretty bleh at everything else. If I had more of an early aggro emphasis and/or had the Mirage blocktutors in my deck it would be a much more attractive option. As it is all I can think of is what it would be like on turn 6 or later against a playgroup with a fair amount of combo and infect, i.e. my playgroup.
Encircling fissure is a nice new fog type of a spell which could also win you temporary favor with another player at your table. It will give you the opportunity to kill opposing creatures and use lifelink well
I'd remove Painful Truths and give its slot to Damnable Pact since truths can only ever draw you two cards in a two Color commander deck. The Pact also can be used to Fireball an opponent who is low on life if you need to.
Yeah there's the reason I haven't updated this recently.
This playstyle I'm going for? It fits Ayli way more than Karlov. Karlov will be better at early aggro builds but Ayli will be better at mid to late game control. So I've already retooled to fit Ayli.
I like that you state the deck's purpose is to "weaponize the life total" in response to not putting felidar sovereign in. That is great design sense. I also like your description of the other commanders in W/B. Karlov really is the only one begging to have life gain happen as the main priority. Both reason are why I built this deck too.
My main criticism would be that every "fog" card you had could just simply be replaced by the immense selection of boards wipes in W/B. I think you would upgrade your power in a heartbeat. I suppose that's why I also use some reanimation in my version. The trick being not to make the deck a reanimator/sacrifice/token deck instead of a control deck.
As for Ayli as someone mentioned, I see her as a baby/token version of a good Vish kal deck with the added benefit of exiling permanents instead of one shotting people. I think Ayli (along with felidar sovereign and beacon of immortality) would fit her into a burstier life gain deck to ensure her second abilitiy can be utilized. At worst, she is a great sac outlet for a token based deck with a very low cmc. The more I write this the more I want to make a W/B token deck utilizing bitterblossom etc, which the bonus of it not being a stax deck. Hmmm.
Any updates on the deck with Ayli at the helm? I imagine her shell would need to be a reanimation/token instead of a permanent wiping control shell. Or perhaps a stax shell while waiting for win cons of the felidar type?
Kaalia's Army of AnnhilationRWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain MattersWB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator ToolboxBG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to DieRBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and TapGWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to BleedWBG
Any updates on the deck with Ayli at the helm? I imagine her shell would need to be a reanimation/token instead of a permanent wiping control shell. Or perhaps a stax shell while waiting for win cons of the felidar type?
Yeah yeah this is from February but whatever.
Ayli, while she existed, was indeed a stax shell. I'm fine with stax 1v1 (I'm fine with basically any strat 1v1) but I don't like playing with or against it in multiplayer. It was good but it didn't last super long.
I'm currently waiting to see what happens with the upcoming Mardu vampire deck. Odds are if I build something new it'll be at least B/W. Might even be this or a variant again.
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I like the guy. He's got moxie. But he's also got a bit of overlap in style with an Actually Good Orzhov commander and he doesn't necessarily play to the colors' strengths. So what's Orzhov got going for it over other combinations? I'M GLAD YOU ASKED
1) An absolutely medieval amount of removal.
2) Strong, broad tutors paired with quality specific tutors.
3) Token generation and manipulation.
To start with I'm going to ignore most of that. "But that's stupid!" you say. Probably. But I want to see what the man can do by himself before I dip too heavily into the well of Orzhov.dec cards everyone knows by heart. I want to get into what space he can carve out himself to see how truly unique and distinct he is.
Now EDH is a personal thing. I understand that. However even the chillest of casual players can get frustrated by a commander that underperforms for the deck that's been built. Sometimes one commander is simply better at a playstyle than another. Especially in a color combination as broadly slow and disruptable as Orzhov can be.
If you want to play a form of enchantress you should probably play Selenia.
If you want to goof with tokens/actually win with any regularity you should probably play little Teysa.
If you want to go small and maximize early combat you should probably play Athreos.
If you want to try to grind out a slow win in the mid to possibly late game you should probably play Ghost Dad or maybe but probably not Return of Ghost Dad.
If you want to try a kitchen sink combo with a handful of Voltron you should probably play big Teysa while shoving bamboo shoots under your fingernails.
If you want to take three turns at a time to do anything substantive you should probably play Triad of Fates while openly wondering what your life has come to.
If you want to show everyone that you bought the original precons you should probably play Vish Kal.
If you want to vomit into a deckbox and call it macaroni you should probably play Daxos.
How does Karlov fit into this? I'm hoping the way he specifically encourages lifegain can be utilized in way that can succeed outside of a traditional pillowfort setting. So let's try to Weaponize The Life Total!
SkeletonsGhosts1.2Magic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards1 Karlov of the Ghost Council
Creature (19)
1 Archangel of Thune
1 Auriok Champion
1 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1 Divinity of Pride
1 Drana, Liberator of Malakir
1 Knight of the White Orchid
1 Kor Cartographer
1 Minion of the Wastes
1 Rhox Faithmender
1 Roiling Horror
1 Serra Ascendant
1 Serra Avatar
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Soul Warden
1 Soul's Attendant
1 Sunscorch Regent
1 Thief of Blood
1 Vizkopa Guildmage
1 Wall of Reverence
Enchantment (8)
1 Angelic Chorus
1 Celestial Mantle
1 Exquisite Blood
1 Necropotence
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Retreat to Hagra
1 Sanguine Bond
1 True Conviction
1 Ancient Craving
1 Essence Harvest
1 Night's Whisper
1 Pain's Reward
1 Painful Truths
1 Read the Bones
1 Rite of Consumption
1 Sign in Blood
1 Survival Cache
Instant (10)
1 Angel's Grace
1 Beacon of Immortality
1 Hatred
1 Mortify
1 Plunge into Darkness
1 Return to Dust
1 Riot Control
1 Spoils of the Vault
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Utter End
Artifact (14)
1 Alhammarret's Archive
1 Fellwar Stone
1 Hedron Archive
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Mind Stone
1 Orzhov Cluestone
1 Phyrexian Processor
1 Prismatic Lens
1 Sol Ring
1 Swiftfoot Boots
1 Surveyor's Scope
1 Thought Vessel
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Liliana of the Dark Realms
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Land (37)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Caves of Koilos
1 Command Tower
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Godless Shrine
1 High Market
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Kabira Crossroads
10 Plains
1 Radiant Fountain
1 Rogue's Passage
1 Scoured Barrens
1 Seraph Sanctuary
1 Shambling Vent
10 Swamp
1 Tainted Field
1 Temple of Silence
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Vault of the Archangel
UNASKED QUESTIONS AND PREEMPTIVE ANSWERS
These balances seem off.
Maybe! It's feeling pretty good right now though.
No tutors? Really?
I want to see if I can get away with replacing them with life-draining dig spells.
I'm in a competitive meta and am looking for a way to bring Karlov into the playgroup. What can you recommend for high-end changes to this list?
Click here!
Why aren't you trying out things like Righteous Cause, Polluted Bonds, Defiant Bloodlord, etc.?
Most if not all of those cards will have their time in this deck eventually. Once I get a good feel for the mana balance I'll start committing more to higher cost cards if I think I need them.
What about {better but higher CMC version of card on list}?
I like to start low CMC with Orzhov. Doesn't mean I'll stay that way later if things need tuning.
What about some conspicuously missing X spells like Exsanguinate, Debt to the Deathless, or even Bond of Agony?
I'm not putting (good) Urborg and Coffers in until I see how the rest of the cards work on their own. And the first one in will probably be Bond of Agony.
I see you have the old standby of Exquisite Blood and Sanguine Bond going on here. This isn't a question.
I like both cards individually for this deck and unless I'm facing off against Azami and Marath (HI AIRITHNE) if I find one I won't be in a rush to find the other. That combo has known value. If I have to rely on it to win here then I'll know I need to change directions.
I don't understand why you aren't running Test of Endurance or Felidar Sovereign.
Excuse me, those are Stay At High Life Cards. I don't see how they properly Weaponize The Life Total.
Is that honestly your answer?
Yes. Yes it is.
WAITING LIST
Disciple of Bolas
Obzedat's Aid
Temple of the False God
Graveborn Muse
Glimmerpost
Righteous Cause
Polluted Bonds
Emeria Shepherd
Vampiric Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Necropolis Regent
Ajani Goldmane
Ajani Steadfast
Delaying Shield
A Brief History of Change
1.0 -> 1.1
in: Minion of the Wastes, Roiling Horror, Serra Avatar, Alhammarret's Archive, Fellwar Stone, Hedron Archive, Orzhov Cluestone, Phyrexian Processor, Thought Vessel, Whip of Erebos, Angelic Chorus, Blind Obedience, Celestial Mantle, Necropotence, Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
why: swap mana rocks, more life-based creatures and support, not worrying about fogs for the moment, not worrying about death triggers as much because of the lack of sac outlets and tokens
1.1 -> 1.2
in: Riot Control, Angel's Grace, Pain's Reward, Painful Truths, Prismatic Lens, Mind Stone, Surveyor's Scope, Liliana of the Dark Realms
why: put fogs back in, more rocks, attempt at more consistent land, moving away from more mana-intensive cards to one shot effects
If you're looking for more evasion I'd add Shizo, Death's Storehouse.
CommanderEDH Decks:CommanderEDH DecksWULavinia of the Blinking TenthUW RGURiku the Epic Experimenter’s StormUGR UBRThrax and his Super FriendsRBU RWUZedruu the Hard HeartedUWR
WBU Zur the UnstoppableUBW
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
I should probably already have Necropotence in there. It should probably replace Necrologia. Probably.
Nefarious Lich is super tempting. I am very, very tempted. My group runs so much spot removal that it's virtually suicide to even consider it but that just adds to the appeal.
Alhammarret's Archive, Angelic Chorus, or Blind Obedience, perhaps?
Cheers!
Krichaiushii on PucaTrade.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
False Cure will likely get tested once I inevitably break down and buy an Actual Tutor or two. This may be as soon as this afternoon.
I like Alhammarret's Archive. I'll put it on the waiting list.
I'm currently less of a fan of Angelic Chorus because it only triggers from my creatures. I'll probably still try it but not as soon as some others.
I don't know if I'm ever going to go heavy extort but Blind Obedience still seems like a natural fit.
edit: also there's now a Waiting List
It plays nice with Phyrexian Processor, too.
Cheers!
Krichaiushii on PucaTrade.
Consider me Swayed. I also like the cut of the Processor's jib.
BURWGSliver Hivelord's alt wincon deck at Maze's EndBURWG
GWBSidar Kondo and Ikra Shidiq likes big butts
RUMizzix of the Izmagnus Super ThiefRU
BURWGGeneral Tazri, The Megazord AllyBURWG
BURJeleva Mill and Kill BUR
BRGrenzo's get out from under that deck!BR
WUG Roon's Enchanted Evening (enchantment deck) WUG
BUG The Undersea World of Tasigur CousteauBUG
BWGAnafenza, Counter QueenBWG
I think extort has a lot of potential in this deck! Personally I want to try bigger swings and lifesplosions because that's the kind of mood I'm in.
More specifically in a control/prison shell with a crushing amount of removal I think extort would be a very good method of lifegain bordering on the best available mechanic. It would run slower than the pure aggro builds where Karlov skyrockets immediately but I think it would be more reliable against non-hard combo decks.
~
Version 1.1 is live!
Cheers!
Krichaiushii on PucaTrade.
I'm weighing my options between sliding a few boardwipes into the deck or just sitting back and making other people play janitor given my win condition options.
WUBDakkon, a Tribute
BChainer, the demonlord!
RWAurelia
WBKarlov of the Ghost Council
I don't play as much EDH as I used to so I don't go through the volume of games I need as quickly to really test out certain themes and cards. Having said that here are some quick hits:
- Trying more, cheaper mana rocks
- Minion of the Wastes, as much as I love him, seems to be the low man on the totem pole. Removing him would also make Angelic Chorus weaker.
- Testing the removal of the bigger lifelink creatures in exchange for angels like Angelic Skirmisher and Victory's Herald
- I'm a little less sure of the two Ajanis now than I was before but they'll likely bob in and out of my list over time
Sun Droplet is faaaaaaantastic at maximizing Karlov and Archangel of Thune triggers and pretty bleh at everything else. If I had more of an early aggro emphasis and/or had the Mirage block tutors in my deck it would be a much more attractive option. As it is all I can think of is what it would be like on turn 6 or later against a playgroup with a fair amount of combo and infect, i.e. my playgroup.
BURWGSliver Hivelord's alt wincon deck at Maze's EndBURWG
GWBSidar Kondo and Ikra Shidiq likes big butts
RUMizzix of the Izmagnus Super ThiefRU
BURWGGeneral Tazri, The Megazord AllyBURWG
BURJeleva Mill and Kill BUR
BRGrenzo's get out from under that deck!BR
WUG Roon's Enchanted Evening (enchantment deck) WUG
BUG The Undersea World of Tasigur CousteauBUG
BWGAnafenza, Counter QueenBWG
This also seems like the perfect deck for Repay in Kind and Soul Conduit.
The new B/W legend, Ayli?
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath, Gray Merchant of Asphodel, Kokusho, the Evening Star all would synergies well?
Agent of Masks and Subversion also work.
Unspeakable Symbol could work, as could Rings of Brighthearth
Nice list! Grey Merchant of Asphodel can usually be a win con too.
BURWGSliver Hivelord's alt wincon deck at Maze's EndBURWG
GWBSidar Kondo and Ikra Shidiq likes big butts
RUMizzix of the Izmagnus Super ThiefRU
BURWGGeneral Tazri, The Megazord AllyBURWG
BURJeleva Mill and Kill BUR
BRGrenzo's get out from under that deck!BR
WUG Roon's Enchanted Evening (enchantment deck) WUG
BUG The Undersea World of Tasigur CousteauBUG
BWGAnafenza, Counter QueenBWG
Yeah there's the reason I haven't updated this recently.
This playstyle I'm going for? It fits Ayli way more than Karlov. Karlov will be better at early aggro builds but Ayli will be better at mid to late game control. So I've already retooled to fit Ayli.
My main criticism would be that every "fog" card you had could just simply be replaced by the immense selection of boards wipes in W/B. I think you would upgrade your power in a heartbeat. I suppose that's why I also use some reanimation in my version. The trick being not to make the deck a reanimator/sacrifice/token deck instead of a control deck.
As for Ayli as someone mentioned, I see her as a baby/token version of a good Vish kal deck with the added benefit of exiling permanents instead of one shotting people. I think Ayli (along with felidar sovereign and beacon of immortality) would fit her into a burstier life gain deck to ensure her second abilitiy can be utilized. At worst, she is a great sac outlet for a token based deck with a very low cmc. The more I write this the more I want to make a W/B token deck utilizing bitterblossom etc, which the bonus of it not being a stax deck. Hmmm.
Any updates on the deck with Ayli at the helm? I imagine her shell would need to be a reanimation/token instead of a permanent wiping control shell. Or perhaps a stax shell while waiting for win cons of the felidar type?
Kaalia's Army of Annhilation RWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain Matters WB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator Toolbox BG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to Die RBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and Tap GWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to Bleed WBG
Yeah yeah this is from February but whatever.
Ayli, while she existed, was indeed a stax shell. I'm fine with stax 1v1 (I'm fine with basically any strat 1v1) but I don't like playing with or against it in multiplayer. It was good but it didn't last super long.
I'm currently waiting to see what happens with the upcoming Mardu vampire deck. Odds are if I build something new it'll be at least B/W. Might even be this or a variant again.