This is my mono black control build. I've been tinkering with this deck idea for a while. It started out as a Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter W/B control deck. I decided to switch it over to mono black in order to deal with ramp better and so I always have recursion as an option with my general. I generally play in a multiplayer setting (about 3-4 other players on average). Currently, this is a non-combo build. I'm thinking of trying to keep this non-combo focused (I know there's at least 1 combo in here currently by accident) because my current play group isn't super competitive and I don't find it very enjoyable to combo off for a win in a noncompetitive meta/a group that plays without many instant responses to these, but my win cons may be a bit too unreliable, so I may have to give in and add some combos (i.e. Leyline of the Void and Helm of Obedience and other combos). My current win cons, excluding swing with creatures, are a general damage package (viewable in the deck list based on function) and life drain. My current playgroup sadly does not play with the ban list, considering they all love fastbond and primeval titan so much, so the recurring nightmare and Braids, cabal minion are not an issue. I don't want to push the limit, so I'm not including Yawgmoth's Bargain even though recurring nightmare is already super janky.
My main concern is: alternative/better win cons or additional cards to help these current win cons while trying to avoid combos along with any other cards that I may have missed and did not consider to include in the deck. Also, my creature curve seems a bit too high. Any suggestions would be appreciated! Thanks!
Cards I'm considering: Harvester of Souls-considering replacing Bloodgift Demon with this, but I already have a lot of 6 CMC creatures Falkenrath Noble-seems a bit too slow Nirkana Revenant-If ramp package ends up not being enough, but I already have a very high amount of 6 CMC creatures. Extraplanar Lens-If ramp package ends up not being enough Diabolic Tutor-might just want another tutor even though it's pretty expensive to cast
Nice deck! Griselbrand is about as good as it gets for win conditions if you are not worried about the ban list. Toss in Entomb, Reanimate and Animate Dead and you can make a pretty good impression of a legacy reanimator deck. Might be too over the top if you are trying to stay friendly, but everyone should try it at least once. Beyond that I would probably cut a few of the bigger creatures, a few equipments, maybe the pricier mana sources in favor of a bit more cheap ramp, rituals and cheap draw. This is the gas that fuels mono-black and allows you to get set up with you big draw and big mana engines quickly enough to take over.
Thanks! I like your Xiahou Dun deck as well! That was one of the three lists I used to fine tune this quite a bit. I can't believe that I completely forgot about Griselbrand. I feel that may push the boundaries, but I'm going to try it and see how it goes. I had the reanimate type cards in my first draft, but I tried to focus more on the grave pact aspect of the current draft, but I feel I should go a little more reanimator based in order to speed things up a bit more and lower the mana curve. Based off of your suggestions and a couple more times play testing this in 1v1 only, this is what I'm thinking of:
Remove:
1) Bloodgift Demon-I feel he's just too slow and underwhelming for me. I also already have a high amount of 5 drops, and I think Chainer, Dementia Master, Sidisi, Undead Vizier, and Gray Merchant of Asphodel provide more benefit quicker and fit more in this deck.
2) Caged Sun-I have so many other 6 drops in this deck, I definitely need to cut it down a bit. I feel on this turn I will probably be dropping one of those creatures. I also feel like Extraplanar Lens is a better option for me if I think I need another mana doubler. If Black Market doesn't end up performing well, this or Extraplanar Lens will probably take its place
3) Nightmare Lash
4) Strata Scythe-I feel 2 equipments may be enough. It also had the most expensive equip cost and I lose a swamp.
5) Lashwrithe-I think I'll keep it to one equipment and tutor it up as needed. I just think Bonehoard fits the flavor of this deck better and will scale better in the late game.
6) Sheoldred, Whispering One-Expensive and I already have a lot of recursion for my own creatures and sacrifice effects. I feel Geth, Lord of the Vault and Chainer, Dementia Master fulfill Sheoldred's role better because I can reanimate my opponents' creatures.
7) Steel Hellkite-This guy just doesn't belong really. I only included it because my playgroup loves Aura shards and there aren't many ways to deal with enchantments in mono black. He might go back in if I have a horrific time with that card.
I'll add the changes to the above 2 deck lists. What are your opinions on what I chose to remove?
Edit: Also, I've never been a fan of ritual effects in EDH. I tend to always get them as dead draws in the later game. How have they treated you in your deck? I'm considering trying them again in this deck to see how they go.
Thanks! definitely the deck I have the most fun tinkering with.
Those sound like very solid changes, exactly what I was getting at. Not sure I would cut Lashwrithe over Bonehoard, probably doesn't matter much. The main reason I cut equipment all together is that after a few times Hatreding people out of the game XDOE became more or less kill on sight in my group so the idea of getting incremental value out of his attacks or killing over a few turns just didn't work that often. I feel like that hate has calmed down a bit now that Hatred is more of a backup in the deck, maybe I will try out Lashwrithe again.
I would consider taking out Ogre Slumlord and Dawn of the dead too. Sweet cards no doubt, but probably the weakest of your "sac fodder" section and "recursion" sections. I think the main thing to remember with XDOE is that you are running 6+ very strong, recurrable tutor anything cards, so you don't need quite as much redundancy as you normally do.
As for rituals, the only one I ran for a long time was bubbling muck, and I would never ever cut it. It is not useful T1-T2 where Dark Ritual shines, but allows you to get a turn or two ahead in the early-mid game and get established. Then it is often worth recurring it with XDOE late game to set up a big game winning turn, either with a big life drain of some sort or casting out your last few creatures to start your living death loop all in one turn. Basically it scales into the late game in a way that doesn't really make it a horrible draw later on. Same is true for Everflowing Chalice.
Yeah, Lashwrithe probably is more solid. The reason I'm keeping an equipment in is because my group doesn't really use much for spot removal for some reason. They love their wraths though, so it sounds like it might be better in my meta than yours, and with the amount of recursion I have, I figured I could also just have Xiahou Dun eat some removal if I wanted to protect something else, since there isn't much spot removal already. It looks like you ran equipments at one time in your build. Did you ever run Lashwrithe and if so, how did it compare to batterskull or Umezawa's Jitte when you were actually able to cast them and Xiahou Dun would survive removal? I'd be leaning more toward Umezawa's Jitte out of the two because of the horsemanship on Xiahou Dun and it's low CMC/equip cost.
This looks like it will help my curve quite a bit more. I like the Bubbling Muck definitely. I used to run the Everflowing Chalice in an old deck and wasn't a huge fan of it then. I'm going to test it out later today to see how it works or if I just wish I had something else instead.
I don't recall ever doing much with Lashwrithe in this deck, was in there for a while. I had a B-team black deck that used Commander Greven Il-vec to do a little voltron control and there it was very scary, should easily be a 2-turn kill most of the time mid-game in this list. I did get a fair bit of mileage out of Umezawa's Jitte and Batterskull and agree Jitte is probably the better of the two. Nice when you can sneak a couple of hits in early with a vampire nighthawk or bloodghast or something to tick the counters up while you use XDOE to recur some stuff and get set up. Then go voltron to close the game out once things are under control. That said, the germ token is always nice to have for clamping or an early diabolic intent, but you already run way more sac fodder than I do so you might not need it as much. The life gain you get from Batterskull is significant, but if that is what you were looking for I would consider Wurmcoil Engine first, since you already have Nim Deathmantle and Ashnod's Altar.
Edit: Also, I've never been a fan of ritual effects in EDH. I tend to always get them as dead draws in the later game. How have they treated you in your deck? I'm considering trying them again in this deck to see how they go.
I do find that the rituals are useful, but that said, all bragging aside, my deck is also one of the most fast-focused of any that I've seen. However, Cabal Ritual becomes absolutely ridiculous late-game as well. I don't actually like Wayfarer's Bauble, but Expedition Map is a consideration even for people who aren't going ham on the Cabal Coffers-and-other-big-mana route.
I don't know. I haven't been sold on this card for this deck. I'm not a big fan of the non-instant speed spot removal, recursion (which is done well in my deck already), and the drain of life being on only one opponent. The fear ability is nice though, but I'm not sure how well Grave Pact/Wraths will actually be working to keep my opponents' fields cleared/controlled when I want them to be. I might include this if I find it difficult to keep my opponents' field empty enough. How have your experiences been with using this card? Same goes to anyone that uses this card in a similar deck.
That was one of the three lists I used to fine tune this quite a bit.
Hmm... I like this list as well.
Yeah, yours and the other primer were the other two of the three decks decks I mentioned that I mainly looked at. I would have gone your deck's route if my summer playgroup wasn't as noncompetitive as they are. I already have Arcum Dagsson, Edric, and Azusa decks for my competitive group during the rest of the year, and my summer group doesn't find those very enjoyable, which is understandable for some of them. So, I had to go the slow, control route so they find it more enjoyable and the games last longer. That said, onto the deck building.
I do find that the rituals are useful, but that said, all bragging aside, my deck is also one of the most fast-focused of any that I've seen. However, Cabal Ritual becomes absolutely ridiculous late-game as well. I don't actually like Wayfarer's Bauble, but Expedition Map is a consideration even for people who aren't going ham on the Cabal Coffers-and-other-big-mana route.
I agree. I tried this out and when I did have Wayfarer's Bauble in my hand at the start, I found myself just not using it's ability. This is because I felt a T2 Tutor, T3 Buried Alive, or some T2/T3 card draw would be better, and by having the option of playing it on Turn 4, I found I would probably have drawn a T4 drop by then to play instead or would have just done it then. Either way, I found it to be not very good for me or too late. I figured I'd add it for Cabal Coffers support, but that card doesn't really need anything for support with how bonkers it gets quickly. I do think rituals are a better option for me instead of land ramp because of the instant benefit they provide instead of having to wait another turn to activate. So, these are the new changes:
Geth, Lord of the Vault is the next card I'm considering removing. I think its usefulness will come to late, and it doesn't have much for instant benefit, which I would prefer if it did. I'm not a big fan of relying on my opponents' GY for creatures as well. I also prefer Chainer, Dementia Master because I can bring back my own guys, sacrifice those guys in response if Chainer were to be removed, and use it as a form of GY removal for my opponents. His ability is also cheaper in mana cost. Considering maybe Slaughter Pact as a replacement; Hero's Downfall is my only spot removal in this deck right now. Removing him would also help my mana curve a bit more.
Black Market is next on the chopping block after this probably. I do know how quickly this will go off and how useful it will be, so I don't know if the benefit is worth it with how much this enchantment costs to cast. Haven't had the chance to play either of these in a multiplayer game yet, so I can't really say definitely for both.
Thanks for all of the help everyone! I appreciate it!
Remove: Black Market-Way too slow and I find myself not playing it until it's the last card in my hand every time. Probably a sign that it shouldn't be in here. I love this card and tried to keep it in longer than I definitely should have. Geth, Lord of the Vault-I'm going to decrease the curve a bit more. He doesn't have much for synergy in this deck, also he's expensive with no immediate benefit that requires 2 turns of syncing mana into. Everflowing Chalice-I just wasn't satisfied with this card when I drew it. It's probably just because I prefer more early game/cheaper ramp. Sign in Blood-I just replaced this with Night's Whisper because of the mana cost.
For these, I pretty much just think I need more removal. I only have one spot removal, so these should help. Thinking of trying to make room for Innocent Blood as well.
I don't know. I haven't been sold on this card for this deck. I'm not a big fan of the non-instant speed spot removal, recursion (which is done well in my deck already), and the drain of life being on only one opponent. The fear ability is nice though, but I'm not sure how well Grave Pact/Wraths will actually be working to keep my opponents' fields cleared/controlled when I want them to be. I might include this if I find it difficult to keep my opponents' field empty enough. How have your experiences been with using this card? Same goes to anyone that uses this card in a similar deck.
I love Profane Command with XHD so much that I went ahead and foiled it for my deck. You already play infinite mana combo and Cabal Coffers... This just gives you one more way to finish the table. With XHD in the yard or not, cast profane command, drain the opponent for X, and whatever else (recurring XHD if he is in the g.y.), XHD comes into play..sac XHD to get back Profane Command...Rinse and Repeat. I have finished off tables with this card and where you play 1v1 sometimes..It doesnt matter if it hits everyone.
Thinking of trying to make room for Innocent Blood as well.
That card is much better removal than a lot of people seem to realize. I certainly approve.
I'll second this.
Lastly, I would like to make a pitch to play both Sign in Blood along with Night's Whisper along with Ancient Craving, Ambition's Cost and Promise of Power. I am a huge believer in card draw wins games.
I don't know. I haven't been sold on this card for this deck. I'm not a big fan of the non-instant speed spot removal, recursion (which is done well in my deck already), and the drain of life being on only one opponent. The fear ability is nice though, but I'm not sure how well Grave Pact/Wraths will actually be working to keep my opponents' fields cleared/controlled when I want them to be. I might include this if I find it difficult to keep my opponents' field empty enough. How have your experiences been with using this card? Same goes to anyone that uses this card in a similar deck.
I love Profane Command with XHD so much that I went ahead and foiled it for my deck. You already play infinite mana combo and Cabal Coffers... This just gives you one more way to finish the table. With XHD in the yard or not, cast profane command, drain the opponent for X, and whatever else (recurring XHD if he is in the g.y.), XHD comes into play..sac XHD to get back Profane Command...Rinse and Repeat. I have finished off tables with this card and where you play 1v1 sometimes..It doesnt matter if it hits everyone.
Thinking of trying to make room for Innocent Blood as well.
That card is much better removal than a lot of people seem to realize. I certainly approve.
I'll second this.
Lastly, I would like to make a pitch to play both Sign in Blood along with Night's Whisper along with Ancient Craving, Ambition's Cost and Promise of Power. I am a huge believer in card draw wins games.
Profane command is the real deal for exactly this reason, it loops itself with XODE, give it a try. Innocent blood is also the real deal, this deck is rarely rushing to pump out an early creature that it needs to stick, so this is often a 3 for 1 for 1 mana. I also think you want both night's whisper and sign in blood. Adding the 4-cc draw is probably not going to hurt the deck, but I think by that point you can expect to have one of your big draw engines like skullclamp/ bitterblossom or necropotence or graveborn muse/grave titan. Once you have one of those online you are not really going to be wasting mana onAmbition's cost, are you? The 2-cc draw is different, it plays along side your rituals and cheap ramp to get you ahead of the game on cards and mana simultaneously early enough for the deck to be relevant. If you draw it once you are online, you just pitch it, no harm done.
I love Profane Command with XHD so much that I went ahead and foiled it for my deck. You already play infinite mana combo and Cabal Coffers... This just gives you one more way to finish the table. With XHD in the yard or not, cast profane command, drain the opponent for X, and whatever else (recurring XHD if he is in the g.y.), XHD comes into play..sac XHD to get back Profane Command...Rinse and Repeat. I have finished off tables with this card and where you play 1v1 sometimes..It doesnt matter if it hits everyone.
Wow, I did not connect the dots initially on that one with the recursion of Xiahou Dun. That's definitely nice. Thanks for explaining that well! I'll make room for that.
Sadly, I won't be able to meet with this current playgroup for a long time, so I'm going to adjust this a tiny bit, so I have the option of using this at my LGS when I choose to, so I'm going to remove the banned cards. I don't think this affects a lot, but I will miss being able to play recurring nightmare the most with its insane broken-ness.
ophiomancer / bitterblossom = contamination OR gravepact
contamination shuts them down (just like infernal darkness wich i also play)
tokens + gravepact is always fun
Contamination effects are the one effect I'd rather not use in this deck even though it would be great in here. (This is more of I don't like playing against cards like that that much, so I'd rather not use them myself. It's only a personal reason for this card even though it is amazing in this deck!)
I'm considering Ophiomancer as well, but I just don't know what I would remove for this. The each upkeep is nice.
Dimir House Guard I feel he will be good if I end up having room for it, which I plan to, but I've reached that point where it's really hard to find more to remove.
Shred Memory-I just feel I don't have enough great 2 CMC cards worth it to have this included. Bitterblossom is great, but I'm not a big fan of tutoring for a tutor and a decent number of cards take priority over bitterblossom for me.
Also i kinda like puppeteer clique and phyrexian obliterator (no body wants to attack you)
And dystopia is cheap and very annoying for a lot of generals.
Phyrexian Obliterator is close to my favorite creature to play, but, sadly, I just don't think it has much synergy in here and I feel other cards would be better suited that are supported more by other cards like the Puppeteer Clique that you suggested that I feel would work well as well.
Changes:
Remove: Braids, Cabal Minion Recurring Nightmare Griselbrand Burnished Hart-I see this played in a decent amount of mono black control decks when I looked online, so I stuck it in here. When I played with my playgroup the other day, this was just the most disappointing draw I had by far. I figured it fit in with the sac ability, but it just felt too slow and too late to be very useful.
Any suggestions on what people feel is unnecessary in the deck currently would be appreciated if anything should be removed for some of these or other opinions on these. Also, thanks for all of the suggestions! It's coming along nicely I'd say.
You are right, decklist is getting tight. Some day maybe we will see Recurring Nightmare unbanned, man would that be sweet for this deck. Beseech the Queen is alright because it is a tutor and tutors are good, but I would prefer to play diabolic tutor over this since you don't have to reveal your card, and the mana cost is not much different at the end of the day. Dimir House Guard is also a solid tutor that I play over beseech because it helps out with the living death endgame later on. Mindslicer is an awesome option to have in your tool box if you can find room, just wrecks the table.
Was inspired by your discussion to swap out Everflowing Chalice for Cabal Ritual for a test run in my list, will let you know how it goes. A week or two ago I swapped Burnished Hart out for Pilgrim's Eye, so I agree with you on that cut. Thinking about maybe doing a bit more of an overhaul at some point, like the idea of a little more sac-for-value like you have going on.
My main concern is: alternative/better win cons or additional cards to help these current win cons while trying to avoid combos along with any other cards that I may have missed and did not consider to include in the deck. Also, my creature curve seems a bit too high. Any suggestions would be appreciated! Thanks!
Deck list based on type of card:
4 Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
Creatures (20)
1 Viscera Seer
2 Blood Artist
2 Nether Traitor
2 Bloodghast
2 Reassembling Skeleton
3 Grim Haruspex
3 Pawn of Ulamog
3 Fleshbag Marauder
4 Crypt Ghast
4 Graveborn Muse
4 Solemn Simulacrum
5 Chainer, Dementia Master
5 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
5 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
6 Grave Titan
6 Kokusho, the Evening Star
6 Massacre Wurm
Sorcery/Instant (22)
0 Slaughter Pact
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Entomb
1 Innocent Blood
1 Reanimate
1 Bubbling Muck
2 Cabal Ritual
2 Demonic Tutor
2 Sign in Blood
2 Diabolic Intent
2 Night's Whisper
2x Profane Command
2x Exsanguinate
3 Buried Alive
3 Read the Bones
3 Corpse Dance
3 Yawgmoth's Will
3 Beseech the Queen
3 Hero's Downfall
3 Toxic Deluge
4 Damnation
4 Silence the Believers
4 Snuff Out
5 Hatred
5 Living Death
8 Decree of Pain
1 Phyrexian Reclamation
2 Bitterblossom
2 Gate to Phyrexia
3 Dark Prophecy
3 Necromancy
3 Necropotence
3 Phyrexian Arena
4 Grave Pact
5 Dictate of Erebos
Artifacts (14)
0 Mana Crypt
1 Expedition Map
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Skullclamp
1 Sol Ring
2 Jet Medallion
2 Nim Deathmantle
3 Ashnod's Altar
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Phyrexian Altar
3 Rings of Brighthearth
4 Lashwrithe
Lands (36)
0 Bloodstained Mire
0 Buried Ruin
0 Cabal Coffers
0 Deserted Temple
0 High Market
0 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
0 Phyrexian Tower
0 Polluted Delta
0 Thawing Glaciers
0 Thespian's Stage
0 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
0 Vesuva
0 Volrath's Stronghold
23 Swamp
Deck list based on function of cards:
0 High Market
0 Phyrexian Tower
1 Viscera Seer
3 Ashnod's Altar
3 Phyrexian Altar
Ramp (8)
0 Mana Crypt
1 Bubbling Muck
1 Sol Ring
2 Cabal Ritual
2 Jet Medallion
4 Crypt Ghast
4 Solemn Simulacrum
Land Ramp Package (7)
0 Cabal Coffers
0 Deserted Temple
0 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
0 Thawing Glaciers
0 Thespian's Stage
0 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
0 Vesuva
Card Draw (10)
1 Skullclamp
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Night's Whisper
2 Sign in Blood
3 Read the Bones
3 Dark Prophecy
3 Necropotence
3 Phyrexian Arena
3 Grim Haruspex
4 Graveborn Muse
0 Buried Ruin
0 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Reanimate
1 Phyrexian Reclamation
2 Nim Deathmantle
3 Necromancy
3 Corpse Dance
3 Yawgmoth's Will
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
5 Chainer, Dementia Master
Wraths/Mass Creature Control (9)
1 Innocent Blood
3 Toxic Deluge
3 Fleshbag Marauder
4 Damnation
4 Grave Pact
5 Dictate of Erebos
5 Living Death
6 Massacre Wurm
8 Decree of Pain
Tutors (7)
1 Expedition Map
1 Entomb
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Demonic Tutor
2 Diabolic Intent
3 Buried Alive
3 Beseech the Queen
5 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
2 Nether Traitor
2 Bitterblossom
2 Bloodghast
2 Reassembling Skeleton
3 Pawn of Ulamog
6 Grave Titan
General Damage Package (2)
4 Lashwrithe
5 Hatred
Drain Effects (4)
2 Blood Artist
2x Exsanguinate
2x Profane Command
5 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
6 Kokusho, the Evening Star
Spot Removal (5)
0 Slaughter Pact
2 Gate to Phyrexia
3 Hero's Downfall
4 Snuff Out
4 Silence the Believers
General Shenanigans (1)
3 Rings of Brighthearth
Other Lands (25)
0 Bloodstained Mire
0 Polluted Delta
23 Swamp
Cards I'm considering:
Harvester of Souls-considering replacing Bloodgift Demon with this, but I already have a lot of 6 CMC creatures
Falkenrath Noble-seems a bit too slow
Nirkana Revenant-If ramp package ends up not being enough, but I already have a very high amount of 6 CMC creatures.
Extraplanar Lens-If ramp package ends up not being enough
Diabolic Tutor-might just want another tutor even though it's pretty expensive to cast
UGUPrime Speaker Seamonster RampUGU
WUGDerevi Does NothingWUG
RRRFeldon's Lovely LadiesRRR
Remove:
1) Bloodgift Demon-I feel he's just too slow and underwhelming for me. I also already have a high amount of 5 drops, and I think Chainer, Dementia Master, Sidisi, Undead Vizier, and Gray Merchant of Asphodel provide more benefit quicker and fit more in this deck.
2) Caged Sun-I have so many other 6 drops in this deck, I definitely need to cut it down a bit. I feel on this turn I will probably be dropping one of those creatures. I also feel like Extraplanar Lens is a better option for me if I think I need another mana doubler. If Black Market doesn't end up performing well, this or Extraplanar Lens will probably take its place
3) Nightmare Lash
4) Strata Scythe-I feel 2 equipments may be enough. It also had the most expensive equip cost and I lose a swamp.
5) Lashwrithe-I think I'll keep it to one equipment and tutor it up as needed. I just think Bonehoard fits the flavor of this deck better and will scale better in the late game.
6) Sheoldred, Whispering One-Expensive and I already have a lot of recursion for my own creatures and sacrifice effects. I feel Geth, Lord of the Vault and Chainer, Dementia Master fulfill Sheoldred's role better because I can reanimate my opponents' creatures.
7) Steel Hellkite-This guy just doesn't belong really. I only included it because my playgroup loves Aura shards and there aren't many ways to deal with enchantments in mono black. He might go back in if I have a horrific time with that card.
Add:
1) Griselbrand
2) Necromancy
3) Reanimate
4) entomb
5) Wayfarer's Bauble
6) Sign in Blood
7) Read the Bones
I'll add the changes to the above 2 deck lists. What are your opinions on what I chose to remove?
Edit: Also, I've never been a fan of ritual effects in EDH. I tend to always get them as dead draws in the later game. How have they treated you in your deck? I'm considering trying them again in this deck to see how they go.
Those sound like very solid changes, exactly what I was getting at. Not sure I would cut Lashwrithe over Bonehoard, probably doesn't matter much. The main reason I cut equipment all together is that after a few times Hatreding people out of the game XDOE became more or less kill on sight in my group so the idea of getting incremental value out of his attacks or killing over a few turns just didn't work that often. I feel like that hate has calmed down a bit now that Hatred is more of a backup in the deck, maybe I will try out Lashwrithe again.
I would consider taking out Ogre Slumlord and Dawn of the dead too. Sweet cards no doubt, but probably the weakest of your "sac fodder" section and "recursion" sections. I think the main thing to remember with XDOE is that you are running 6+ very strong, recurrable tutor anything cards, so you don't need quite as much redundancy as you normally do.
As for rituals, the only one I ran for a long time was bubbling muck, and I would never ever cut it. It is not useful T1-T2 where Dark Ritual shines, but allows you to get a turn or two ahead in the early-mid game and get established. Then it is often worth recurring it with XDOE late game to set up a big game winning turn, either with a big life drain of some sort or casting out your last few creatures to start your living death loop all in one turn. Basically it scales into the late game in a way that doesn't really make it a horrible draw later on. Same is true for Everflowing Chalice.
UGUPrime Speaker Seamonster RampUGU
WUGDerevi Does NothingWUG
RRRFeldon's Lovely LadiesRRR
Remove:
1) Bonehoard
2) Dawn of the Dead
3) Ogre Slumlord
Add:
1) Bubbling Muck
2) Lashwrithe
3) Everflowing Chalice
This looks like it will help my curve quite a bit more. I like the Bubbling Muck definitely. I used to run the Everflowing Chalice in an old deck and wasn't a huge fan of it then. I'm going to test it out later today to see how it works or if I just wish I had something else instead.
UGUPrime Speaker Seamonster RampUGU
WUGDerevi Does NothingWUG
RRRFeldon's Lovely LadiesRRR
Hmm... I like this list as well.
I do find that the rituals are useful, but that said, all bragging aside, my deck is also one of the most fast-focused of any that I've seen. However, Cabal Ritual becomes absolutely ridiculous late-game as well. I don't actually like Wayfarer's Bauble, but Expedition Map is a consideration even for people who aren't going ham on the Cabal Coffers-and-other-big-mana route.
I don't know. I haven't been sold on this card for this deck. I'm not a big fan of the non-instant speed spot removal, recursion (which is done well in my deck already), and the drain of life being on only one opponent. The fear ability is nice though, but I'm not sure how well Grave Pact/Wraths will actually be working to keep my opponents' fields cleared/controlled when I want them to be. I might include this if I find it difficult to keep my opponents' field empty enough. How have your experiences been with using this card? Same goes to anyone that uses this card in a similar deck.
Yeah, yours and the other primer were the other two of the three decks decks I mentioned that I mainly looked at. I would have gone your deck's route if my summer playgroup wasn't as noncompetitive as they are. I already have Arcum Dagsson, Edric, and Azusa decks for my competitive group during the rest of the year, and my summer group doesn't find those very enjoyable, which is understandable for some of them. So, I had to go the slow, control route so they find it more enjoyable and the games last longer. That said, onto the deck building.
I agree. I tried this out and when I did have Wayfarer's Bauble in my hand at the start, I found myself just not using it's ability. This is because I felt a T2 Tutor, T3 Buried Alive, or some T2/T3 card draw would be better, and by having the option of playing it on Turn 4, I found I would probably have drawn a T4 drop by then to play instead or would have just done it then. Either way, I found it to be not very good for me or too late. I figured I'd add it for Cabal Coffers support, but that card doesn't really need anything for support with how bonkers it gets quickly. I do think rituals are a better option for me instead of land ramp because of the instant benefit they provide instead of having to wait another turn to activate. So, these are the new changes:
Remove: Wayfarer's Bauble
Add: Cabal Ritual
Geth, Lord of the Vault is the next card I'm considering removing. I think its usefulness will come to late, and it doesn't have much for instant benefit, which I would prefer if it did. I'm not a big fan of relying on my opponents' GY for creatures as well. I also prefer Chainer, Dementia Master because I can bring back my own guys, sacrifice those guys in response if Chainer were to be removed, and use it as a form of GY removal for my opponents. His ability is also cheaper in mana cost. Considering maybe Slaughter Pact as a replacement; Hero's Downfall is my only spot removal in this deck right now. Removing him would also help my mana curve a bit more.
Black Market is next on the chopping block after this probably. I do know how quickly this will go off and how useful it will be, so I don't know if the benefit is worth it with how much this enchantment costs to cast. Haven't had the chance to play either of these in a multiplayer game yet, so I can't really say definitely for both.
Thanks for all of the help everyone! I appreciate it!
Remove:
Black Market-Way too slow and I find myself not playing it until it's the last card in my hand every time. Probably a sign that it shouldn't be in here. I love this card and tried to keep it in longer than I definitely should have.
Geth, Lord of the Vault-I'm going to decrease the curve a bit more. He doesn't have much for synergy in this deck, also he's expensive with no immediate benefit that requires 2 turns of syncing mana into.
Everflowing Chalice-I just wasn't satisfied with this card when I drew it. It's probably just because I prefer more early game/cheaper ramp.
Sign in Blood-I just replaced this with Night's Whisper because of the mana cost.
Add:
Slaughter Pact
Silence the Believers
Snuff Out
Night's Whisper-replace sign in blood
For these, I pretty much just think I need more removal. I only have one spot removal, so these should help. Thinking of trying to make room for Innocent Blood as well.
Also, I do like the Sign in Blood and Read the Bones effects a lot more than I thought I would. Thanks for the suggestion! The Cabal Ritual and Bubbling Muck were working well also!
That card is much better removal than a lot of people seem to realize. I certainly approve.
I love Profane Command with XHD so much that I went ahead and foiled it for my deck. You already play infinite mana combo and Cabal Coffers... This just gives you one more way to finish the table. With XHD in the yard or not, cast profane command, drain the opponent for X, and whatever else (recurring XHD if he is in the g.y.), XHD comes into play..sac XHD to get back Profane Command...Rinse and Repeat. I have finished off tables with this card and where you play 1v1 sometimes..It doesnt matter if it hits everyone.
I'll second this.
Lastly, I would like to make a pitch to play both Sign in Blood along with Night's Whisper along with Ancient Craving, Ambition's Cost and Promise of Power. I am a huge believer in card draw wins games.
Profane command is the real deal for exactly this reason, it loops itself with XODE, give it a try. Innocent blood is also the real deal, this deck is rarely rushing to pump out an early creature that it needs to stick, so this is often a 3 for 1 for 1 mana. I also think you want both night's whisper and sign in blood. Adding the 4-cc draw is probably not going to hurt the deck, but I think by that point you can expect to have one of your big draw engines like skullclamp/ bitterblossom or necropotence or graveborn muse/grave titan. Once you have one of those online you are not really going to be wasting mana onAmbition's cost, are you? The 2-cc draw is different, it plays along side your rituals and cheap ramp to get you ahead of the game on cards and mana simultaneously early enough for the deck to be relevant. If you draw it once you are online, you just pitch it, no harm done.
UGUPrime Speaker Seamonster RampUGU
WUGDerevi Does NothingWUG
RRRFeldon's Lovely LadiesRRR
Wow, I did not connect the dots initially on that one with the recursion of Xiahou Dun. That's definitely nice. Thanks for explaining that well! I'll make room for that.
Sadly, I won't be able to meet with this current playgroup for a long time, so I'm going to adjust this a tiny bit, so I have the option of using this at my LGS when I choose to, so I'm going to remove the banned cards. I don't think this affects a lot, but I will miss being able to play recurring nightmare the most with its insane broken-ness.
Contamination effects are the one effect I'd rather not use in this deck even though it would be great in here. (This is more of I don't like playing against cards like that that much, so I'd rather not use them myself. It's only a personal reason for this card even though it is amazing in this deck!)
I'm considering Ophiomancer as well, but I just don't know what I would remove for this. The each upkeep is nice.
I'm definitely a fan of Beseech the queen.
Dimir House Guard I feel he will be good if I end up having room for it, which I plan to, but I've reached that point where it's really hard to find more to remove.
Shred Memory-I just feel I don't have enough great 2 CMC cards worth it to have this included. Bitterblossom is great, but I'm not a big fan of tutoring for a tutor and a decent number of cards take priority over bitterblossom for me.
Phyrexian Obliterator is close to my favorite creature to play, but, sadly, I just don't think it has much synergy in here and I feel other cards would be better suited that are supported more by other cards like the Puppeteer Clique that you suggested that I feel would work well as well.
Changes:
Remove:
Braids, Cabal Minion
Recurring Nightmare
Griselbrand
Burnished Hart-I see this played in a decent amount of mono black control decks when I looked online, so I stuck it in here. When I played with my playgroup the other day, this was just the most disappointing draw I had by far. I figured it fit in with the sac ability, but it just felt too slow and too late to be very useful.
Add:
Profane Command
Innocent Blood
Sign in Blood
Beseech the Queen
Cards I'm considering adding, but can't find the room for at the moment:
Puppeteer Clique
Ophiomancer
Dimir House Guard
Mindslicer
Any suggestions on what people feel is unnecessary in the deck currently would be appreciated if anything should be removed for some of these or other opinions on these. Also, thanks for all of the suggestions! It's coming along nicely I'd say.
Was inspired by your discussion to swap out Everflowing Chalice for Cabal Ritual for a test run in my list, will let you know how it goes. A week or two ago I swapped Burnished Hart out for Pilgrim's Eye, so I agree with you on that cut. Thinking about maybe doing a bit more of an overhaul at some point, like the idea of a little more sac-for-value like you have going on.
UGUPrime Speaker Seamonster RampUGU
WUGDerevi Does NothingWUG
RRRFeldon's Lovely LadiesRRR