MTG Salvation

Update 1 May 2019

Let's start by defining what this deck is. Storm decks usually run lots of cantrips, including wheels, to generate a high storm count and then win, traditionally with Tendrils but more recently with Aetherflux Reservoir (or LabMan as backup).

A wheels deck instead tries to gain tempo advantage via a one-sided Wheel combo card, like Waste Not, and then win using that resource advantage. Until now, I always assumed R was necessary. After all, Wheel is red and the best storm decks are Grixis. But after realizing that I only ran 5 cards with R in them and there are Wheels in other colors, is there a better option?

The core is (U/B), that's indisputable, but G offers us speed from mana dorks and extra land drops (which are especially good in this deck). Meanwhile, W offers us protection and additional combo pieces.

With these new colors, the goal is a turn 1 wheel, or if that's not possible, controlling the other fast decks, and then a turn 2-4 wheel combo for massive advantage to almost guarantee a win.

Considering: Echo of Eons

Comments, questions, suggestions encouraged!

I'm pretty sure that you would just be way, way better off playing this as a Nekusar, the Mindrazer deck.

I actually second that. I think the risk of going five-color and potentially getting color-screwed or losing to Blood Moon isn't worth the speed of Green and White. Besides, Nek can actually serve as a wincon, and doesn't scream Hermit Druid.

Nekusar is usually too slow, but even when he's not, I don't have access to green in that deck :c

Green is IMMEASURABLY important in this deck. The ramp is just necessary, but also being able to fetch more dual-color Islands as well as having more fetches in general that thin out the deck. Without it would be less fast and less consistent. Believe me, I tried it

Edit: If you play this deck correctly, you will NEVER get color hosed. In general you shouldn't be playing basics anyway. At a competitive table the Hermit Druid stigma isn't a problem either. So far the games I've played only 1 person thought I was playing slivers, but no one else targeted or had bias against me.

Quote from DigitalFire »

In general you shouldn't be playing basics anyway.

I'm sorry, what? I don't even know what to say to that.

Quote from ZenN »

Quote from DigitalFire »

In general you shouldn't be playing basics anyway.

I'm sorry, what? I don't even know what to say to that.

If you're playing 3+ colors, you should be playing only 1 of each basic under almost all circumstances. This is actually even MORE important than just having good lands in this deck because of Tainted Pact.

Bear in mind that this deck is Hermit Druid level, but what I said is still generally true except for Blood Moon or Land Tax decks etc.

This deck looks insane. I love this idea so much.

Curious why Force and Pact got the boot here. (Assuming you're winning the same turn with pact)

I read that other counters out preformed here but that just seems odd

Just pointing out that Summoner's Pact can only fetch green creatures so unless you want it as another lotus petal (fetching elvish spirit guide) or to fecth lotus cobra and ramp in some wierd way it's probably not worth including.

Quote from Dies_to_Doom_Blade »

This deck looks insane. I love this idea so much.

Curious why Force and Pact got the boot here. (Assuming you're winning the same turn with pact)

I read that other counters out preformed here but that just seems odd

Yeah Pact is actually probably great in this deck. I'll put it in.

Quote from pthf27 »

Just pointing out that Summoner's Pact can only fetch green creatures so unless you want it as another lotus petal (fetching elvish spirit guide) or to fecth lotus cobra and ramp in some wierd way it's probably not worth including.

And now I know what to cut! Lol I totally missed the "green" creatures part. Guess I'm cutting Pact for Pact!

I updated my second post with some great games I played today! The deck is a lot more versatile and resilient than I expected (which is great news!) The control matchup is pretty hard, but definitely doable.

The deck looks powerful, but I don't think Ad Naeuaem fits in here, your curve is way too high (Spirit guides, Delve cards etc) I'd play Thoughtseize instead as a catch all answer and disruption .

Definitely a very cool deck and would indeed be great to hear more about how it plays.
I don't think green is worth it in this deck though, I think red rituals would work better and also stabilize your mana base more, Rite of Flame, Seething Song, Desperate Ritual and Cabal Ritual could be good inclusions. Aside from Lotus Cobra and Manamorphose none of the green ramp spells seems that great in a deck like this either compared to rituals or other mana rocks (though without testing my opinion doesn't count for much). Cutting green can also allow you to shift your mana base to be able to include Necropotence.
I think Thirst for Knowledge is stronger than Forbidden Alchemy. I think you also want more protection, Dispel and Spell Pierce are quite good, and I think Thoughtsieze, Liliana as you mentioned and Duress could also be worth it through their synergy with Waste Not.

Quote from BlackVise »

1) If you're aiming for T3-4 wins Sylvan Library seems very slow. I'd suggest either Sensei's Divining Top (which has a similar effect for the same mana investment and can also just be used to help boost your storm count a bit) or Portent.

Sylvan Library is so awkward. Sometimes it's a good t1 and you draw 6 but other times it's terrible. Top isn't a terrific replacement either as ordering the top is kind of useless if you're going to wheel into all the cards on top. However, I haven't tested it and I like the uses that you mentioned.

2) In my experience even a deck like this needs to be playing basic lands for resilience. If someone drops Blood Moon or Back to Basics you're going to have a real tough time. Generally I try to play at least seven basics in 5C decks.

This is really tough. I think in a lot of circumstances, even with basics, this would be a blowout. I guess the hope is that I wheel away or disrupt those cards, or win before they can cast them but that just may not be enough. I admit I will probably wait until this happens to do something about it though...

3) Some more information on how to play this deck and expansion on exactly how you combo out in the play data would be very helpful. This is obviously quite a complex deck, so having more information on how to play it will make it easier for people to give you detailed and useful feedback.

Great suggestion, I definitely glossed over this. I have the cockatrice replays on my other computer so perhaps I will find a good place to share those and also describe the combo in more detail. I was actually very surprised at how skill-intensive this deck was. When first putting it together I thought it would be *yawn* wheel wheel win (although I guess that's the way it is for my opponents )

Quote from Cold_Hellfire »

The deck looks powerful, but I don't think Ad Naeuaem fits in here, your curve is way too high (Spirit guides, Delve cards etc) I'd play Thoughtseize instead as a catch all answer and disruption .

I was kind of against those at first but after some rough control matchups I think those would be stellar. In general though, I don't try to storm away with the Ad Naus, but draw 5-10 cards which is always good.

Quote from capitacom »

Definitely a very cool deck and would indeed be great to hear more about how it plays.
I don't think green is worth it in this deck though, I think red rituals would work better and also stabilize your mana base more, Rite of Flame, Seething Song, Desperate Ritual and Cabal Ritual could be good inclusions. Aside from Lotus Cobra and Manamorphose none of the green ramp spells seems that great in a deck like this either compared to rituals or other mana rocks (though without testing my opinion doesn't count for much). Cutting green can also allow you to shift your mana base to be able to include Necropotence.
I think Thirst for Knowledge is stronger than Forbidden Alchemy. I think you also want more protection, Dispel and Spell Pierce are quite good, and I think Thoughtsieze, Liliana as you mentioned and Duress could also be worth it through their synergy with Waste Not.

I definitely want to give Grixis another try. The deck has changed a bit since I tested that, so maybe I can make it work with some more looting and disruption. Thanks for your suggestions, will test again soon!
EDIT: We can definitely make Grixis work

I really like targeted discard in this deck.

Quote from razzliox »

I really like targeted discard in this deck.

I think it makes for a bit of a slower start, but more reliable which is great. This deck is starting to turn into moxnix's Grixis storm, haha. In fact, they're extremely similar, the only real differences being: bigger emphasis on Wheels, especially early; tutoring for Waste Not as a 2-card combo rather than cantripping (although we do that to some extent); and a primary win of LabMan into Demonic Consultation / Tainted Pact instead of Grapeshot / Tendrils of Agony (though he has Doomsday as a backup which is similar).

I think suggestions are good in general your running a giant pile of goldfish with far to few control slots cut the crap gas cards for more control slot. I find 5 color mana far from perfect splashing white to play just enlightened tutor? Heck you play mutiple white lands XD. This looks like it would be fast due to sheer amount of goldfish cards but honestly I think you lose very little in speed trimming fat for resilance. Not only to get off waste not + wheel but you can easily wheel players into FoW etc you need more dispel/ dures effect. The green splash also seems fairly useless thier is a reason I play grixis storm not 5 cc you just don't gain very much from it and believe me you have awkward hands running land ramp spells that only grab green duals but you have to fetch green to play the card then you have 2 useless green rest of game.. Also no good general if your combo gets countered / removed your always at the mercy of the top of your deck. You have plenty of cut table cards the weakest cards in each category of function are very cuttable.

Quote from Moxnix »

I think suggestions are good in general your running a giant pile of goldfish with far to few control slots cut the crap gas cards for more control slot. I find 5 color mana far from perfect splashing white to play just enlightened tutor? Heck you play mutiple white lands XD. This looks like it would be fast due to sheer amount of goldfish cards but honestly I think you lose very little in speed trimming fat for resilance. Not only to get off waste not + wheel but you can easily wheel players into FoW etc you need more dispel/ dures effect. The green splash also seems fairly useless thier is a reason I play grixis storm not 5 cc you just don't gain very much from it and believe me you have awkward hands running land ramp spells that only grab green duals but you have to fetch green to play the card then you have 2 useless green rest of game.. Also no good general if your combo gets countered / removed your always at the mercy of the top of your deck. You have plenty of cut table cards the weakest cards in each category of function are very cuttable.

Thanks Mox! Yeah, looks like I'm going Grixis. I may indeed run a few more counters, but I'm going to have to test the changes I've just made to see where the deck stands now.

I like the list. I'm not a huge expert or anything, but I like how the changes make the deck look less like a glass cannon.

I was about to say before, "what would you do if someone partial'd (or wheel'd) into an Abrupt Decay or Force", but having discard to fire off at the control players looks legit.

Hey! Checking in, since it's been awhile. How hard would you say this deck folds to countermagic? What do you think of Defense Grid?

The deck is surprisingly quite resilient to countermagic, as there is a good deal of redundancy in card choices. Lately it's become even stronger, as an early Duress on the blue player usually means I'm in the clear. I hope to post some new games soon, but hard to find the time!

Edit: I just posted an in-depth game!

Interested in the development of this deck. Is it still in the works?

I am going to pick up on this deck where he left off, as soon as i get internet.

Can't wait to read some gameplay for vial smasher and kydele, though it sounds like they'll just be for the colors after reading some of your first posts. Just curious. Do you think it'll even change the play of the deck?