Below is my take on Roon of the Hidden Realm. It's my own mix of durdly/value, that I really enjoy, and a bit of Enter The Battlefield mean-ness. A short explanation of card choices/strategy is below in the spoiler, as well as a list of long-term/costly acquisitions, but I have a few things I would really love feedback on though! I have yet to purchase these cards because I always appreciate the help I get from people like you!
Lightform/Cloudform manifesting a card, flicker them with Brago, King Eternal or Venser, the Sojourner for another free manifest! Then I can flicker manifested creatures/lands to get them face up, or bounce noncreature spells back to my hand with Venser, Shaper Savant or Temur Sabertooth! Question: are the color requirements too intensive for my (cheap) manabase? Will I reliably be able to flicker enchantments with what I currently have? What would you recommend if you think I should take them out?
Is my curve too high? What should I take out if it is? What should I replace it with/what am I missing?
Roon seems like a really important piece of the strategy - do I need more protection for my commander? What would you recommend to make sure he sticks?
The plan is to ramp up to Roon ASAP and then abuse blinking for value. Ramp and card draw are slightly tilted towards creatures like Wood Elves and Coiling Oracle which can be blinked for extra value later in the game.
- Sylvan Safekeeper Pretty weak protection: vulnerable to wrath and leaves you down resources.
- Saffi Eriksdotter Hasn't impressed me much. Definitely had some synergy with Sun Titan but the payoff wasn't enough.
+ Path to Exile Awesome FNM promo - premium removal. 'Nuff said.
+ Angel of Finality Flavorful in the deck and worth the slot in my GY heavy meta.
Changes 8/16/15
- Mimic Vat Serves as GY spot removal in a pinch and can make a creature on demand, but it seemed like a weak spot comparatively.
+ Aura Shards Awesome enchantment/artifact removal. With Roon I can just machine gun down an artifact based strategy with ease.
Changes 2/6/16:
- Island
- Angel of Finality GY hate not as necessary in my meta anymore
- Prophet of Kruphix I'll miss you ;(
- Wargate Mostly found PoK anyway, plus I want to increase my density of creatures to flicker - some games I don't hit any relevant ones and it's not particularly fun
- Sundial of the Infinite Too cute. Usually this meant using Roon on my turn to exile an opponent's creature permanently, but that doesn't open up a good attack and is worse to a wrath.
- Dauntless Escort I was always fond of the Sun Titan loop, but this didn't really ever fit thematically with the deck.
- Oblation Shuffle into library effects aren't as desirable after the rules change, I'm not facing lot of tough to deal with permanents.
- Mistmeadow Witch 4 mana activation is tough, I don't think it ever did anything good for me.
- Glacial Fortress/Sunpetal Grove Need more colorless sources.
- Forest x3
- Island
+ Sower of Temptation I love the art on this little guy. I also love stealing my opponent's things.
+ Gilded Drake I'm really looking forward to blinking him over and over =]
+ Austere Command Flexibility!
+ Eldrazi Displacer My favorite card from OGW, I like it so much that it single handedly prompted my manabase changes!
+ Adarkar Wastes/Brushland/Yavimaya Coast Need more colorless sources.
+ Mirrorpool I love this card and I LOVE its art! Tokens are a blink nonbo, but I have a bunch of good CIP creatures to copy. We'll see.
+ Wastes x2 I'm not sure if it's correct to play 0-2 but I thought I would start on the high end and see how it impacts my game.
Hey Joel, solid list! Shameless plug for my primer, listed in my signature, for Roon of the Hidden Realm. Feel free to check it out for ideas or to read the thread to see many other players' opinions on card choices for this commander.
Regarding your mana base: it's not bad at all! I think you can be greedy with those double mana symbol cards with little to no problem, especially considering the ramp/fixing you have devoted in other slots. One thing I'd question is why you're using the artifacts lands (Ancient Den, Seat of the Synod, and Tree of Tales) - a brief look at your list doesn't give me a reason to want more artifacts. Having an extra card type is usually just easier to destroy, so unless you're using them for a reason, I'd stick to just lands. The other lands I'd suggest are all on your long-term list, except for scry lands (Temple of Mystery, Temple of Enlightenment, and Temple of Plenty), which I have enjoyed.
Regarding your curve: I don't think it's too high. Considering this is designed for multiplayer, I think you'll be ok with your curve.
Regarding protection for your commander: I used to run Lightning Greaves and Swiftfoot Boots, but I've taken them out for now. Another options would be Thousand-Year Elixir. I felt that even without Roon of the Hidden Realm, the deck has a lot of "action" and can function just fine without the commander - you're still playing cards that have high impact on the board and synergy with each other.
If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask. Good luck!
but people get salty about roon w/ cards like deadeye for some reason idk why
Edit:
Asceticism and Ghostway I think would be two good fits in your deck. Ghostway + sweeper = you win usually
Could you expand on how effective manifest is when you've played it? It'd work great in creature heavy decks but it just seems cost intensive as targets for the exile abilities
Regarding your mana base: it's not bad at all! I think you can be greedy with those double mana symbol cards with little to no problem, especially considering the ramp/fixing you have devoted in other slots. One thing I'd question is why you're using the artifacts lands (Ancient Den, Seat of the Synod, and Tree of Tales) - a brief look at your list doesn't give me a reason to want more artifacts. Having an extra card type is usually just easier to destroy, so unless you're using them for a reason, I'd stick to just lands. The other lands I'd suggest are all on your long-term list, except for scry lands (Temple of Mystery, Temple of Enlightenment, and Temple of Plenty), which I have enjoyed.
I have the artifact lands in there as an emergency situation Trinket Mage target... They would definitely be the worst of my targets, but I thought the extra risk I take on by having them might be worth it? Too specific/small to matter you think?
You've found the scylands worth CIPT? I read up on them and found the consensus to be: good in two color decks but not three+. But if you disagree I'd spring for them, especially with Theros block rotating soon
Regarding protection for your commander: I used to run Lightning Greaves and Swiftfoot Boots, but I've taken them out for now. Another options would be Thousand-Year Elixir. I felt that even without Roon of the Hidden Realm, the deck has a lot of "action" and can function just fine without the commander - you're still playing cards that have high impact on the board and synergy with each other.
Definitely considering Thousand-Year Elixer. I ended up dropping it because it only really synergized with Roon - If I run into more removal than I've planned I'll keep it in mind, but I'll keep an open mind to how the deck functions w/o Roon. The new tuck rule definitely helps!
I noticed that you're not running Sundial of the Infinite in your list, but it's not in the Notable Exclusions list. Not a consideration? Too mean/clunky?
but people get salty about roon w/ cards like deadeye for some reason idk why
Edit:
Asceticism and Ghostway I think would be two good fits in your deck. Ghostway + sweeper = you win usually
Could you expand on how effective manifest is when you've played it? It'd work great in creature heavy decks but it just seems cost intensive as targets for the exile abilities
I'm definitely considering Ghostway as an option - it does provide a lot of protection for the team. I'll keep Asceticism in mind too, actually I kind of want to add it to my Marath build
I haven't actually ever played with this deck - it's all theoretical so far. I got the idea for manifest from the Brago, King Eternal,Primer actually. I suspect that it will synergize much better in that list because Brago can blink Lightform/Cloudform directly while Roon can't but I wanted to give it a shot and see how it goes. Might be a little too cute. I think Mastery of the Unseen is solid though.
Once I actually build this in paper I'll let you guys know how that aspect of it goes
Joel, regarding the artifact lands, it's probably a meta call. In mine, we see artifact sweepers a lot (Austere Command), so it would be dangerous for me. In yours, the Trinket Mage interaction might be worthwhile.
I've enjoyed the scry temples so far. I'm not always playing on curve, and my list runs quite a bit more permissioni than yours, so that might be the main difference. I wouldn't call them must-haves, but come rotation I think you'd be happy to pick up a few for this deck.
As to Sundial of the Infinite, I tried it out for a while and found it too clunky. On paper it sounds great, but in practice I found that if I've got the ability to bounce enemy permanents, I"m usually winning anyway. I also found that I was usually bouncing my own stuff with Roon of the Hidden Realm to get extra ETB effects. I think that a more efficient way to remove things permanently is to just include Mangara of Cornodor, as she is decent removal on her own, and she synergizes really well with Roon, who can make it a 1-sided perma exile of any permanent.
I don't like the artifact lands, they make the better "check lands" (Sunpetal Grove etc) worse by not having a subtype. Forests are a safe bet because they fuel your green ramp while still having a subtype (this is one of the main reasons the shock lands are so powerful - they are fetchable with Wood Elves and Nature's Lore).
I feel like the Saffi Eriksdotter is not really playing any meaningful role without sacrifice outlet - was it preforming well for you?
Do you rely on Roon a lot? if so you should add more protection (if you can play Glen Elendra Archmage, she's a total beast) and maybe Seedborn Muse to leverage him farther.
I don't like the manifest cards - while this is a creative appliance of the mechanic they seem low impact most of the time, I think you'd rather blink a ramp creature or a threat most of the time Mastery of the Unseen looks pretty ridicules but the one-time manifests don't look very powerful.
The core and the general idea seems really good, now you get to the fun part of trial by fire
I run a similar list with and one of my MVPs is Angel of Serenity. I very rarely lose once i got her going. I also love Progenitor Mimic because it does silly things. My favorite game of EDH ever played incuded both of those.
I really like your Mastery of the Unseen for Roon, never thought of manifest. Thats some serious tech, especially in my list. I run only 6 non-permanents, one of them being Primal Surge
Thanks for all the feedback! I think you are all right - artifact lands for a minuscule amount of utility is taking on too much risk for too little benefit. They're out.
Similarly I really don't feel like I have enough ways to flicker the 'form cards directly. They're much better suited for Brago so they're out too.
Looking at the color requirements based on straight proportions my manabase should be Forest:9 Island:8 Plains:7 but I think I should add more G in because lacking Forests early on will be more detrimental. I'm thinking 10:7:6, does that sound about right? I always struggle with this part!
+ 3 Land
+ Dauntless Escort I forgot to add him in - he's worked really well in my Marath, Will of the Wild build so I think he's worth a slot.
+ Rite of Replication I was concerned that it would be an "auto-win" card which I tend to dislike a bit, but really if there ever was a deck for Rite, it's got to be Roon! I'm already dreaming of 5 Eternal Witness =]
I feel like the Saffi Eriksdotter is not really playing any meaningful role without sacrifice outlet - was it preforming well for you?
Do you rely on Roon a lot? if so you should add more protection (if you can play Glen Elendra Archmage, she's a total beast) and maybe Seedborn Muse to leverage him farther.
I'm not sure how well Saffi will work yet. I had actually intended her to serve as more of a protection against Wraths - I moved her over to the protection section and I'll let you know how she performs.
Glen Elendra Archmage has been on my "to acquire" list for a long time - I know it's only $5 but I usually build a cheapish version of a deck and then slowly build it up. Definitely looking to pick up a PoK's little sister Seedborn Muse too, good suggestions!
I run a similar list with and one of my MVPs is Angel of Serenity. I very rarely lose once i got her going. I also love Progenitor Mimic because it does silly things. My favorite game of EDH ever played incuded both of those.
I'm really excited for Angel of Serenity too, such versatility! Progenitor Mimic is a cool card... but I hate the art so much I actually can't stand to play it. Crazy, I know but it's just too ugly/cheesy looking.
Thanks again for all the help, further suggestions always welcome
Played a few games with Roon recently - this list seems really strong!
Mastery of the Unseen worked well for me so far. Less than 1/5 of my list is a non-permanent so it hits pretty often. Creatures can turn up for their cost, which does lose some utility because you don't get the ETB effects. Blinking them with Roon is preferable usually and you can also get lands into play this way. I personally love how Swiftfoot Boots performed, protection is nice but the haste is awesome, so I'm REALLY considering Thousand-Year Elixir.
Had some trouble with a Daretti, Scrap Savant build utilizing Torpor Orb. It was really problematic because destroying it wasn't good enough due to Daretti's recursion engine. Any exile effects besides Return to Dust? I had originally put in Pithing Needle to deal with Torpor Orb, but realize now that it says activated ability...
Had some trouble with a Daretti, Scrap Savant build utilizing Torpor Orb. It was really problematic because destroying it wasn't good enough due to Daretti's recursion engine. Any exile effects besides Return to Dust? I had originally put in Pithing Needle to deal with Torpor Orb, but realize now that it says activated ability...
Scavenging Ooze is a good idea. I'm hesitant to put it in because it doesn't match the theme of the deck but my meta is pretty gy abuse intense so another piece of hate seems worth a slot. Relic of Progenitus might work better due to synergy with Trinket Mage but I like how much more aggressive/targeted Ooze is. I'll have to think about it. Outcryqq's exile effects also worth considering if I continue to run into it.
Thanks for the suggestions!
The build is very strong in my opinion. I'm starting to think it might be oppressive for my current meta so I'm considering making some cuts designed to slow it down a bit. Possibly cutting:
- Skyshroud Claim even without duals this has felt broken. It just ramps me so far ahead.
- Fierce Empath I feel like this one is not fun to play against because you just see Deadeye Navigator coming... with a blink engine the game feels pretty locked up. Also makes the game feel a bit linear. It's just always going to be Deadeye.
- Eternal Witness completely undoes all the removal opponents used. Even in the worst case scenario EWit + blink engine + Kodama's Reach = insane ramp/thinning
Maybe I just had a lucky few games so I'll give it some more time.
Mastery of the Unseen seems good so far but I haven't seen it enough times to be sure. Manifested Ephara, God of the Polis and that felt nice. It's a decent source of CA and if it comes down early opponents often forget about it
Unless you are really trying to win through combos, I think this deck is completely fair. I don't run a quick win so I load up on control and synergy to allow me to make it to the late game, which is where my deck shines.
The lack of Time Warp is criminal, but since you try to make it less oppressive...
If the deck is a bit above the curve for the group, the best thing to do is to keep it as it is to "force" them to make them step up their game - either by improving play skills or deck building and possibly both. The deck is not at 100% right now and it feels wrong to make it weaker, you can always keep the cards in place and instead of investing in "power" cards invest in the manabase - it will make your deck better and its good for a long run investment but at the same time it does not make it more oppressive and will give your group time to "regroup".
Scavenging Ooze is a good idea. I'm hesitant to put it in because it doesn't match the theme of the deck but my meta is pretty gy abuse intense so another piece of hate seems worth a slot. Relic of Progenitus might work better due to synergy with Trinket Mage but I like how much more aggressive/targeted Ooze is. I'll have to think about it. Outcryqq's exile effects also worth considering if I continue to run into it.
If you want graveyard hate that goes with the theme of your deck, run Angel of Finality.
Silverchase Fox is a card I enjoy using against Daretti or any other decks that are capable of recurring Torpor Orb (I actually removed Krosan Grip for it when playing people online); since it's a creature, there seem to be more ways to tutor it in green than to tutor an instant in blue. Also, with the volume of creatures and token generators you run, is there a reason you're not also running Aura Shards?
Angel of Finality is a great idea! It will be a good placeholder until I can find an Ooze.
I'll definitely consider Silverchase Fox if I keep running into Torpor Orb, it's not very synergistic otherwise so I'll wait before adding it plus a tutor but it's a great option.
Aura Shards is in my "to acquire" list, I know it would be sweet!
Hey Joel, I saw you were thinking about toning down your list a bit. If you still feel that way, one thing you might consider is permanent theft - the power of theft scales with the power of your opponents' decks. These cards aren't cheap, but great options include Gilded Drake and Sower of Temptation. Perplexing Chimera is a great option too, but he can be very oppressive in his own right.
Thanks for the suggestions Outcryqq, I'm looking for a copy of Gilded Drake and Sower of Temptation and I'll pick them up if I see them around! For now I'm going with:
Changes 7/12/15:
- Sylvan Safekeeper Pretty weak protection: vulnerable to wrath and leaves you down resources.
- Saffi Eriksdotter Hasn't impressed me much. Definitely had some synergy with Sun Titan but the payoff wasn't enough.
+ Path to Exile Awesome FNM promo - premium removal. 'Nuff said.
+ Angel of Finality Flavorful in the deck and worth the slot in my GY heavy meta.
Path probably makes the list a bit more efficient/competitive... but it's so shiny and I won it, so =]
Loving your changes! A quick question - have you considered using Whisperwood Elemental? I'm not wild about Dauntless Escort, the elemental would give you the added protection that the escort does, but it also gives you some great pressure to maintain in the form of manifest tokens, which you can flip with any of your blink engines, plus you already use Temur Sabertooth, which plays amazingly well with the elemental.
Whisperwood Elemental is a great suggestion! I'm really digging the manifest subtheme (especially Mastery of the Unseen which is ridiculous) so I'm totally game. Thanks!
Below is my take on Roon of the Hidden Realm. It's my own mix of durdly/value, that I really enjoy, and a bit of Enter The Battlefield mean-ness. A short explanation of card choices/strategy is below in the spoiler, as well as a list of long-term/costly acquisitions, but I have a few things I would really love feedback on though! I have yet to purchase these cards because I always appreciate the help I get from people like you!
I included Trinket Mage which can tutor up a few answers for problems (Tormod's Crypt for those pesky graves or a Pithing Needle for Torpor Orb). Other trinkets include Sol Ring, Skull Clamp, and/or the three artifact lands I've put in the list.
Currently I have Sundial of the Infinite in the list in order to perma-exile with Roon, Mistmeadow Witch, or Venser, the Sojourner. With Mimic Vat I can permanently recur my tokens as well! It might be too mean, honestly, but I want to at least try it out!
I anticipate that most games will be won through the steady accumulation of ETB value through flickering things like Archaeomancer and Eternal Witness, but I can also tutor up threats like Angel of Serenity and Armada Wurm with Fierce Empath.
5 Roon of the Hidden Realm
Ramp (11):
1 Sol Ring
1 Thought Vessel
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Farseek
2 Nature's Lore
2 Kiora's Follower
3 Farhaven Elf
3 Wood Elves
3 Kodama's Reach
3 Cultivate
4 Skyshroud Claim
Draw (7):
1 Skullclamp
2 Coiling Oracle
3 Mulldrifter
3 Rhystic Study
4 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Ephara, God of the Polis
6 Prime Speaker Zegana
Tutor (2):
3 Trinket Mage
3 Fierce Empath
Flicker (4):
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Brago, King Eternal
5 Venser, the Sojourner
6 Deadeye Navigator
Big Stuff (2):
5 Thragtusk
6 Armada Wurm
Copy/Steal (6):
2 Gilded Drake
2 Phantasmal Image
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Sower of Temptation
4 Clever Impersonator
9 Rite of Replication
3 Eternal Witness
4 Archaeomancer
5 Reveillark
5 Karmic Guide
6 Sun Titan
Counter (3):
2 Arcane Denial
2 Counterspell
4 Glen Elendra Archmage
Removal (11):
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Reclamation Sage
3 Reflector Mage
3 Aura Shards
3 Beast Within
4 Return to Dust
5 Ixidron
5 Acidic Slime
7 Angel of Serenity
Sweeper (4):
4 Supreme Verdict
5 Rout
6 Austere Command
7 Cyclonic Rift
Protection (3):
2 Lightning Greaves
4 Temur Sabertooth
5 Whisperwood Elemental
Hate (2):
0 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
Utility (2):
2 Mastery of the Unseen
4 Venser, Shaper Savant
0 Command Tower
0 City of Brass
0 Seaside Citadel
0 Tundra
0 Tropical Island
0 Savannah
0 Hallowed Fountain
0 Breeding Pool
0 Temple Garden
0 Adarkar Wastes
0 Brushland
0 Yavimaya Coast
0 Misty Rainforest
0 Marsh Flats
0 Flooded Strand
0 Arid Mesa
0 Verdant Catacombs
0 Windswept Heath
0 Krosan Verge
0 Temple of the False God
0 Mirrorpool
0 Alchemist's Refuge
0 Reliquary Tower
0 Halimar Depths
0 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
4 Forest
3 Island
3 Plains
2 Wastes
- Sylvan Safekeeper Pretty weak protection: vulnerable to wrath and leaves you down resources.
- Saffi Eriksdotter Hasn't impressed me much. Definitely had some synergy with Sun Titan but the payoff wasn't enough.
+ Path to Exile Awesome FNM promo - premium removal. 'Nuff said.
+ Angel of Finality Flavorful in the deck and worth the slot in my GY heavy meta.
Changes 8/16/15
- Mimic Vat Serves as GY spot removal in a pinch and can make a creature on demand, but it seemed like a weak spot comparatively.
+ Aura Shards Awesome enchantment/artifact removal. With Roon I can just machine gun down an artifact based strategy with ease.
Changes 2/6/16:
- Island
- Angel of Finality GY hate not as necessary in my meta anymore
- Prophet of Kruphix I'll miss you ;(
- Wargate Mostly found PoK anyway, plus I want to increase my density of creatures to flicker - some games I don't hit any relevant ones and it's not particularly fun
+ Minamo, School at Water's Edge Picked up a copy through Pucatrade. It feels pretty good when it's relevant.
+ Phyrexian Metamorph Potentially a 3 CMC clone effect is nice.
+ Whisperwood Elemental Shoutout to Outcryqq for the suggestion!
Changes 3/14/16:
- Sundial of the Infinite Too cute. Usually this meant using Roon on my turn to exile an opponent's creature permanently, but that doesn't open up a good attack and is worse to a wrath.
- Dauntless Escort I was always fond of the Sun Titan loop, but this didn't really ever fit thematically with the deck.
- Oblation Shuffle into library effects aren't as desirable after the rules change, I'm not facing lot of tough to deal with permanents.
- Mistmeadow Witch 4 mana activation is tough, I don't think it ever did anything good for me.
- Glacial Fortress/Sunpetal Grove Need more colorless sources.
- Forest x3
- Island
+ Sower of Temptation I love the art on this little guy. I also love stealing my opponent's things.
+ Gilded Drake I'm really looking forward to blinking him over and over =]
+ Austere Command Flexibility!
+ Eldrazi Displacer My favorite card from OGW, I like it so much that it single handedly prompted my manabase changes!
+ Adarkar Wastes/Brushland/Yavimaya Coast Need more colorless sources.
+ Mirrorpool I love this card and I LOVE its art! Tokens are a blink nonbo, but I have a bunch of good CIP creatures to copy. We'll see.
+ Wastes x2 I'm not sure if it's correct to play 0-2 but I thought I would start on the high end and see how it impacts my game.
Regarding your mana base: it's not bad at all! I think you can be greedy with those double mana symbol cards with little to no problem, especially considering the ramp/fixing you have devoted in other slots. One thing I'd question is why you're using the artifacts lands (Ancient Den, Seat of the Synod, and Tree of Tales) - a brief look at your list doesn't give me a reason to want more artifacts. Having an extra card type is usually just easier to destroy, so unless you're using them for a reason, I'd stick to just lands. The other lands I'd suggest are all on your long-term list, except for scry lands (Temple of Mystery, Temple of Enlightenment, and Temple of Plenty), which I have enjoyed.
Regarding your curve: I don't think it's too high. Considering this is designed for multiplayer, I think you'll be ok with your curve.
Regarding protection for your commander: I used to run Lightning Greaves and Swiftfoot Boots, but I've taken them out for now. Another options would be Thousand-Year Elixir. I felt that even without Roon of the Hidden Realm, the deck has a lot of "action" and can function just fine without the commander - you're still playing cards that have high impact on the board and synergy with each other.
If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask. Good luck!
Currently Playing:
Multiplayer EDH Lists (click italics for a link to the thread!)
[Primer] Lord of Tresserhorn - Don't Tell Me What I Can't Do[Primer] Roon of the Hidden Realm - Rhino Blink
5 Color Tribal Guide (Slivers, Atogs, Allies, Spirits)
Also Playing (most decklists can be found on my profile)
MarathGeistKamahlGrenzoBolasThassaGitrog
PiratesZurVial Smasher&ThrasiosYennettJhoira(cEDH)Strix(Pauper)
Legacy: Maverick
Modern:
Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebearsbut people get salty about roon w/ cards like deadeye for some reason idk why
Edit:
Asceticism and Ghostway I think would be two good fits in your deck. Ghostway + sweeper = you win usually
Could you expand on how effective manifest is when you've played it? It'd work great in creature heavy decks but it just seems cost intensive as targets for the exile abilities
I have the artifact lands in there as an emergency situation Trinket Mage target... They would definitely be the worst of my targets, but I thought the extra risk I take on by having them might be worth it? Too specific/small to matter you think?
You've found the scylands worth CIPT? I read up on them and found the consensus to be: good in two color decks but not three+. But if you disagree I'd spring for them, especially with Theros block rotating soon
Definitely considering Thousand-Year Elixer. I ended up dropping it because it only really synergized with Roon - If I run into more removal than I've planned I'll keep it in mind, but I'll keep an open mind to how the deck functions w/o Roon. The new tuck rule definitely helps!
I noticed that you're not running Sundial of the Infinite in your list, but it's not in the Notable Exclusions list. Not a consideration? Too mean/clunky?
I'm definitely considering Ghostway as an option - it does provide a lot of protection for the team. I'll keep Asceticism in mind too, actually I kind of want to add it to my Marath build
I haven't actually ever played with this deck - it's all theoretical so far. I got the idea for manifest from the Brago, King Eternal,Primer actually. I suspect that it will synergize much better in that list because Brago can blink Lightform/Cloudform directly while Roon can't but I wanted to give it a shot and see how it goes. Might be a little too cute. I think Mastery of the Unseen is solid though.
Once I actually build this in paper I'll let you guys know how that aspect of it goes
I've enjoyed the scry temples so far. I'm not always playing on curve, and my list runs quite a bit more permissioni than yours, so that might be the main difference. I wouldn't call them must-haves, but come rotation I think you'd be happy to pick up a few for this deck.
As to Sundial of the Infinite, I tried it out for a while and found it too clunky. On paper it sounds great, but in practice I found that if I've got the ability to bounce enemy permanents, I"m usually winning anyway. I also found that I was usually bouncing my own stuff with Roon of the Hidden Realm to get extra ETB effects. I think that a more efficient way to remove things permanently is to just include Mangara of Cornodor, as she is decent removal on her own, and she synergizes really well with Roon, who can make it a 1-sided perma exile of any permanent.
Currently Playing:
Multiplayer EDH Lists (click italics for a link to the thread!)
[Primer] Lord of Tresserhorn - Don't Tell Me What I Can't Do[Primer] Roon of the Hidden Realm - Rhino Blink
5 Color Tribal Guide (Slivers, Atogs, Allies, Spirits)
Also Playing (most decklists can be found on my profile)
MarathGeistKamahlGrenzoBolasThassaGitrog
PiratesZurVial Smasher&ThrasiosYennettJhoira(cEDH)Strix(Pauper)
Legacy: Maverick
Modern:
Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebearsI feel like the Saffi Eriksdotter is not really playing any meaningful role without sacrifice outlet - was it preforming well for you?
Do you rely on Roon a lot? if so you should add more protection (if you can play Glen Elendra Archmage, she's a total beast) and maybe Seedborn Muse to leverage him farther.
I don't like the manifest cards - while this is a creative appliance of the mechanic they seem low impact most of the time, I think you'd rather blink a ramp creature or a threat most of the time Mastery of the Unseen looks pretty ridicules but the one-time manifests don't look very powerful.
The core and the general idea seems really good, now you get to the fun part of trial by fire
I really like your Mastery of the Unseen for Roon, never thought of manifest. Thats some serious tech, especially in my list. I run only 6 non-permanents, one of them being Primal Surge
UR Mizzix of the Izmagnus ~~~ Build your own win-condition: Finite Spellslinging
UR Brudiclad, Telchor Engineer ~~~ We are the Borg. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic ~~~ A Guide to dying slowly
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose ~~~ Marchesa's undying Marionettes
RGW Mayael the Anima ~~~ All Hail the Big Chungus
GWU Chulane, Teller of Tales ~~~ Permanents Only ETB Shenanigans
BGU Sidisi, Brood Tyrant ~~~ Sidisi's Restless Servants
WUBRG The Ur-Dragon ~~~ Dragons eat your face
Similarly I really don't feel like I have enough ways to flicker the 'form cards directly. They're much better suited for Brago so they're out too.
Looking at the color requirements based on straight proportions my manabase should be Forest:9 Island:8 Plains:7 but I think I should add more G in because lacking Forests early on will be more detrimental. I'm thinking 10:7:6, does that sound about right? I always struggle with this part!
- Ancient Den
- Seat of the Synod
- Tree of Tales
- Cloudform
- Lightform
+ 3 Land
+ Dauntless Escort I forgot to add him in - he's worked really well in my Marath, Will of the Wild build so I think he's worth a slot.
+ Rite of Replication I was concerned that it would be an "auto-win" card which I tend to dislike a bit, but really if there ever was a deck for Rite, it's got to be Roon! I'm already dreaming of 5 Eternal Witness =]I'm not sure how well Saffi will work yet. I had actually intended her to serve as more of a protection against Wraths - I moved her over to the protection section and I'll let you know how she performs.
Glen Elendra Archmage has been on my "to acquire" list for a long time - I know it's only $5 but I usually build a cheapish version of a deck and then slowly build it up. Definitely looking to pick up a PoK's little sister Seedborn Muse too, good suggestions!
I'm really excited for Angel of Serenity too, such versatility! Progenitor Mimic is a cool card... but I hate the art so much I actually can't stand to play it. Crazy, I know but it's just too ugly/cheesy looking.
Thanks again for all the help, further suggestions always welcome
Mastery of the Unseen worked well for me so far. Less than 1/5 of my list is a non-permanent so it hits pretty often. Creatures can turn up for their cost, which does lose some utility because you don't get the ETB effects. Blinking them with Roon is preferable usually and you can also get lands into play this way. I personally love how Swiftfoot Boots performed, protection is nice but the haste is awesome, so I'm REALLY considering Thousand-Year Elixir.
Had some trouble with a Daretti, Scrap Savant build utilizing Torpor Orb. It was really problematic because destroying it wasn't good enough due to Daretti's recursion engine. Any exile effects besides Return to Dust? I had originally put in Pithing Needle to deal with Torpor Orb, but realize now that it says activated ability...
i got called out for personally not being fun and ruining the fun of another player after countering him 2 turns in a row playing roon today.
wasn't even a deadeye combo, just a mystic snake next turn restoration angel targeting mystic snake
Torpor Orb being recurred is tough to deal with. Beast Within and Qasali Pridemage are my primary ways to get rid of it. If it continues to be a problem, you might want to consider Revoke Existence, Fade Into Antiquity, or Fate Forgotten.
Currently Playing:
Multiplayer EDH Lists (click italics for a link to the thread!)
[Primer] Lord of Tresserhorn - Don't Tell Me What I Can't Do[Primer] Roon of the Hidden Realm - Rhino Blink
5 Color Tribal Guide (Slivers, Atogs, Allies, Spirits)
Also Playing (most decklists can be found on my profile)
MarathGeistKamahlGrenzoBolasThassaGitrog
PiratesZurVial Smasher&ThrasiosYennettJhoira(cEDH)Strix(Pauper)
Legacy: Maverick
Modern:
Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebearsNot anywhere near as bad as my ghostly flicker /eternal witness /zegana /mana drain loop. ... Lol
Thanks for the suggestions!
The build is very strong in my opinion. I'm starting to think it might be oppressive for my current meta so I'm considering making some cuts designed to slow it down a bit. Possibly cutting:
- Skyshroud Claim even without duals this has felt broken. It just ramps me so far ahead.
- Fierce Empath I feel like this one is not fun to play against because you just see Deadeye Navigator coming... with a blink engine the game feels pretty locked up. Also makes the game feel a bit linear. It's just always going to be Deadeye.
- Eternal Witness completely undoes all the removal opponents used. Even in the worst case scenario EWit + blink engine + Kodama's Reach = insane ramp/thinning
Maybe I just had a lucky few games so I'll give it some more time.
Mastery of the Unseen seems good so far but I haven't seen it enough times to be sure. Manifested Ephara, God of the Polis and that felt nice. It's a decent source of CA and if it comes down early opponents often forget about it
If the deck is a bit above the curve for the group, the best thing to do is to keep it as it is to "force" them to make them step up their game - either by improving play skills or deck building and possibly both. The deck is not at 100% right now and it feels wrong to make it weaker, you can always keep the cards in place and instead of investing in "power" cards invest in the manabase - it will make your deck better and its good for a long run investment but at the same time it does not make it more oppressive and will give your group time to "regroup".
Bad puns, loving it.
If you want graveyard hate that goes with the theme of your deck, run Angel of Finality.
Silverchase Fox is a card I enjoy using against Daretti or any other decks that are capable of recurring Torpor Orb (I actually removed Krosan Grip for it when playing people online); since it's a creature, there seem to be more ways to tutor it in green than to tutor an instant in blue. Also, with the volume of creatures and token generators you run, is there a reason you're not also running Aura Shards?
Sig and Avatar drawn by me.
I'll definitely consider Silverchase Fox if I keep running into Torpor Orb, it's not very synergistic otherwise so I'll wait before adding it plus a tutor but it's a great option.
Aura Shards is in my "to acquire" list, I know it would be sweet!
Thanks for the suggestions!
Currently Playing:
Multiplayer EDH Lists (click italics for a link to the thread!)
[Primer] Lord of Tresserhorn - Don't Tell Me What I Can't Do[Primer] Roon of the Hidden Realm - Rhino Blink
5 Color Tribal Guide (Slivers, Atogs, Allies, Spirits)
Also Playing (most decklists can be found on my profile)
MarathGeistKamahlGrenzoBolasThassaGitrog
PiratesZurVial Smasher&ThrasiosYennettJhoira(cEDH)Strix(Pauper)
Legacy: Maverick
Modern:
Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebearsChanges 7/12/15:
- Sylvan Safekeeper Pretty weak protection: vulnerable to wrath and leaves you down resources.
- Saffi Eriksdotter Hasn't impressed me much. Definitely had some synergy with Sun Titan but the payoff wasn't enough.
+ Path to Exile Awesome FNM promo - premium removal. 'Nuff said.
+ Angel of Finality Flavorful in the deck and worth the slot in my GY heavy meta.
Path probably makes the list a bit more efficient/competitive... but it's so shiny and I won it, so =]
- Mimic Vat Serves as GY spot removal in a pinch and can make a creature on demand, but it seemed like a weak spot comparatively.
+ Aura Shards Awesome enchantment/artifact removal. With Roon I can just machine gun down an artifact based strategy with ease.
Currently Playing:
Multiplayer EDH Lists (click italics for a link to the thread!)
[Primer] Lord of Tresserhorn - Don't Tell Me What I Can't Do[Primer] Roon of the Hidden Realm - Rhino Blink
5 Color Tribal Guide (Slivers, Atogs, Allies, Spirits)
Also Playing (most decklists can be found on my profile)
MarathGeistKamahlGrenzoBolasThassaGitrog
PiratesZurVial Smasher&ThrasiosYennettJhoira(cEDH)Strix(Pauper)
Legacy: Maverick
Modern:
Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebears- Forest x3
- Island x2
- Terramorphic Expanse
- Evolving Wilds
- Bushlands
- Adarkar Wastes
- Skycloud Expanse
- Sungrass Prairie
- Thespian's Stage
- Day of Judgment Counterable < Uncounterable
- Birds of Paradise Better manabase means fixing<ramp
- Swiftfoot Boots Equip 1>0
- Body Double 5 CMC > 1 CMC especially with all of my gravehate.
- Bant Charm Flexible but also very specific. Mana requirements are strict.
+ Hallowed Fountain
+ Breeding Pool
+ Temple Garden
+ Tundra
+ Tropical Island
+ Savannah
+ Misty Rainforest
+ Marsh Flats
+ Flooded Strand
+ Arid Mesa
+ Verdant Catacombs
+ Windswept Heath
+ Supreme Verdict Uncounterable > Counterable.
+ Thought Vessel Ramp is more important than fixing for me now, also I usually have a lot of cards with this deck.
+ Lightning Greaves Equip 1>0
+ Phantasmal Image I broke Mimeoplasm down so the Image needed a new home
+ Glen Elendra Archmage Reusable counter is good - synergy with flicker effects.
Currently Playing:
Multiplayer EDH Lists (click italics for a link to the thread!)
[Primer] Lord of Tresserhorn - Don't Tell Me What I Can't Do[Primer] Roon of the Hidden Realm - Rhino Blink
5 Color Tribal Guide (Slivers, Atogs, Allies, Spirits)
Also Playing (most decklists can be found on my profile)
MarathGeistKamahlGrenzoBolasThassaGitrog
PiratesZurVial Smasher&ThrasiosYennettJhoira(cEDH)Strix(Pauper)
Legacy: Maverick
Modern:
Melira PodRIP 1/19/15GWHatebears