So, with the recent unban of Braids,Cabal Minion,nobody trying to use her as commander?
i saw a recent tournament where she made 5th, but i didnt find the list consistent, like, the list didnt had ophiomancer, which i donno, see as a really good card in the deck.
Anyway, im here to ask if someone has a deck list or if someone is testing it out and make some points around it with me
Thank you so much! i wasnt remembering the creatures names! and that other deck list wasnt running them!...
your list is solid, but you are not running any equip to protect? either swords to finish it quicker?
how is this list running? did you won all the matches?
also i donno about running guardian idol and those kind of stuffs, more global cleanense (in emergency) or more tutor wouldnt it be better? you are running a single tutor
@firefox BR I'm working on a list right now, but won't post it until I've gathered more results. It's different, in a way, than many Braids lists since I think people rely too much on Braids to lock opponents out of the game. The MTGTOP8 list has a few good ideas, but yes, there are a lot of bad choices.
Since you have BR in your nickname, I'd assume you're brazilian. In that case you might be interested in listening to my podcast (www.magicdesvendado.com.br). It's focused in Duel Commander and my next episode (due the end of the month) will be solely about Braids. I'll then post decklists here on Salvation (feel free to PM me)
Now, about the list here: since Braids is a battle for permanents and board presence, I feel cards like Gemstone Caverns, Crystal Vein, Ebon Stronghold and Mox Diamond are simply sub-optimal. You're trading speed for permanents, and that seems bad. If you play a Braids turn 2 but had to sacrifice or discard lands to do that, chances are you're bound to sacrifice Braids soon, and that's a bad proposition. If you want that, City of Traitors is better since you can play Braids early and then sacrifice City the next turn to her.
I'd also recommend a few more tutors, and running at least Umezawa's Jitte as equipment, since it gains life and takes out creatures. Sword of Feast and Famine works nice with Tangle Wire and Winter Orb and Sword of Fire and Ice draws cards and takes his creatures out, which greatly helps the Braids plan. But I don't feel protecting Braids is that necessary if you manage to keep removal out of your opponents hand with discard. Since you seem to be running a more "play Braids as soon as possible" list, I'd recomend cutting 2 mana rocks and Solemn Simulacrum for Lightning Greaves, Jitte and Sword of FaF.
@Bal sure im just asking and trying to make an improvement to everyone, i guessmore control is better than jumping her quickly and sacrificing our own lands, ofc we can do that, but once we have like, a creature that comes back and her i guess its better and we dont locked on our lock as well
@fsecco, i knew you were Fernando Secco lol, yea, im indeed brasilian, and i actually know you from facebook
Yea i saw that list, and i was like, wtf he isnt running low on creatures that can come back, and the tutors choice...i donno but diabolic intent doesnt seem that good, i would prefer running cruel tutor for example
Protecting her isnt necessary indeed, but not having any protection at all... the player can always have 1 mana exile stuff.
In my current list im running all those equips, the list you are talking about its @Bal list
and in the worst scenario, how to deal with Nevermore? i played against an GGAV and i just concede when he do that lol
Hahaha did we talk on Facebook and I forgot? I tend to do that sometimes
I play Ratchet Bomb to deal with enchantments and Shred Memory to go get it and also double as graveyard hate. Memory gets a lot of good stuff so I find it a good tutor for the deck. Just by getting Ratchet Bomb, Bitterblossom and Umezawa's Jitte it's good enough.
I also play Smokestack and am currently trying out Descent into Madness. But yeah, an early Nevermore hurts.
I'd say that if your opponent is being Braided for a few turns and he manages to topdeck a Swords, it's fine. Braids is also a tempo play sometimes. The only thing I haven't extensively tested yet is a reanimation pack so I can let Braids go to the graveyard if removed, and then reanimate it.
I'm currently playing 0 protection for Braids aside from discard. I wish I had slots for Lightning Greaves and Sword of FaF, but I currently don't.
Oh, and Diabolic Intent is there so he can sac Abyssal Persecutor for the win. It's also a good choice if you have a lot of token-makers. I don't play either.
@Bal, I said you should cut Simulacrum, not add it.
yea i see the interact from diabolic intent, but its TOO situtional dont you think? and that can cost us a land, on next upkeep, i donno, i prefer cruel tutor 1 land more but its safe
rachet bomb! forgot it...
descent into madness i donno, 5cmc for exiling stuffs, didnt appreciate either
protection and finisher tho, with winter orb in game, if you have FaF thats pretty much game in any situation
well im curious to see your list as well
hm yea... i guess i tried to buy something from you, but as a good br student, i dont have money
i only want to test a braids deck, because mostly i have all tutors and fetch lands, since i play as a combo Grenzo
Descent into Madness is the only 5cc card I play. I doubted it too but it hurts your opponent BAD. Takes out his entire hand and table. Coupled with Phyrexian Arena, Confidant, Tutelage and any token producer, man it does great damage. That said, it's a card I'm still testing out, so I can't vouch for it.
Yeah, Swords are nice with Braids. Greaves is also, specially since I'm running The Abyss. I'm really trying to find slots for them. Maybe I could cut the Nihil Spellbomb I've been playing? I don't want to feel soft to reanimator. Cut Geralf's Messenger? Maybe... but Messenger is so good... I don't know. For now I'll keep Jitte as the only equip and see how it goes.
EDIT: Maybe my post answers itself and tells me I should cut Descent into Madness for Sword of Feast and Famine! Hehehe
Also, don't play cards that cost more than 4 mana unless they're REALLY, REALLY amazing. That's because you want to play Braids at 4 mana so the only guarantee you have is that you'll have 3-4 mana every given turn.
EDIT: Also, how's Praetor's Grasp? I'd say you can get a Swords or a Wasteland out of almost every opponent's deck, right? And in the mirror it should shine.
As far as I like Abyssal Persecutor, I'd say you probably don't need it. Geralf's Messenger fills a similar role, but also buys you a turn with Braids.
I'm biased to compliment your list, since I helped you a little with card choices over Facebook, but it's the nicest list I've seem so far. Very similar to mine, with a few personal taste changes.
EDIT:
Also, to help you understand your deck better, I'd change some cards from categories.
Liliana is not a discard spell, since it removes creatures as well. You should create a planeswalkers or other category.
Ichor Wellspring is in the DRAW category, and Mycosynth in the Mana Rocks.
Praetor's Grasp is more of a tutor.
Sorry about the double post but I wonder if Magus of the Abyss isn't a better card overall, for Braids, than The Abyss. You can safely play him with Braids on the table since you can just sac himself and spare Braids. And is also is uncounterable via Cavern (he's a human, just as Braids).
He dies to creature removal, I know. But if your opponent is spending creature removal on him and not on Braids, it's good right? The problem is that if he's your only creature he's worthless...
Hi guys, I'm working on a list as well.
I talked a bit with @fsecco on facebook and our deck view is a bit different, as I said to him I see the list as a control deck, where I can finish in the middle of the game.
I'm playing with virtually no mana ramp... which can really harm me, but I believe that this list is not so bad and is very well close to being finished...
I'm sure some cards will be questioned, as overwhelming forces, then you notice that it is a card to the late game, where when I play is pretty much a win condition ...
We talked about it on Facebook, and I still think your deck is very heavy for a Braids deck. You have a lot of 5+ mana spells and I think it's too much.
My problem with this kind of strategy is that it may work, but it relies too much on Braids herself. Half your deck becomes sub-optimal if your opponent can answer Braids.
Even it can be bad positioned in the current meta, I think we can upgrade it to become a better positioned, since we have now many tools to improve the control during the match. Even without the big ramps (like mana vault) we still have some ramps. As you, I like this card, and I think that, since it became recently unbanned, many tools of the deck wasn't explored, and will be. I've looked at many lists, and your too (you and ubiratan), and i'll try to make something more optimized for the field here in my city (fortaleza)
Hey, nice to hear from another listener! Are you the Lucas that commented on the podcasts site? I'm in debt with you guys, but I'm swamped at work. Will do an Origins spoiler episode, though.
So, my problem with Braids it that is has little wiggle room besides your starting 7 and, say, 3-4 top cards. If that won't help you lock your opponent, there's little you can do afterwards but watch them thrive.
That saide, my take on Braids is probably not the best for the deck. Cards like Chalice of the Void and Chains of Mephistopheles are just bad in Commander, I guess. Also, I realized cutting land destruction is just plain wrong. You need those cards, since they're important to keep your opponent from getting out of hand. I've also seen lists that pack Nature's Ruin and Perish, and I think those are good ideas.
Two cards I flirted with but don't remember mentioning in the cast were Pack Rat and Tombstalker. I've seen them in lists and think they're both solid choices. I tried a delve-heavy version of the deck right when Braids was unbanned, but wasn't very good (Gurmag Angler, Empty the Pits, Murderous Cut, Necropolis Fiend and Tombstalker).
So yeah, I think my list isn't the best Braids can be and the deck deserves better. But it's an uphill battle, and you should know that.
Here's the list I came up during the podcast, for reference.
Hehe wasn't me, was other Lucas. I know its thought, but I wanna buy this fight =D
I agree with you about land destruction. A Braids deck is all about land destruction in the early stage of the game. It's very difficult to mantain the control if the opponent have 3-4 lands to play spells to be sac (like Marath), and, since we run mana ramps, is easier to get a land in turn 2 if we dont get the braids, or, better, mantain the control after playing braids/lock destroying lands in turns 3/4/5 =)
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i saw a recent tournament where she made 5th, but i didnt find the list consistent, like, the list didnt had ophiomancer, which i donno, see as a really good card in the deck.
Anyway, im here to ask if someone has a deck list or if someone is testing it out and make some points around it with me
thanks in advance
your list is solid, but you are not running any equip to protect? either swords to finish it quicker?
how is this list running? did you won all the matches?
also i donno about running guardian idol and those kind of stuffs, more global cleanense (in emergency) or more tutor wouldnt it be better? you are running a single tutor
Since you have BR in your nickname, I'd assume you're brazilian. In that case you might be interested in listening to my podcast (www.magicdesvendado.com.br). It's focused in Duel Commander and my next episode (due the end of the month) will be solely about Braids. I'll then post decklists here on Salvation (feel free to PM me)
Now, about the list here: since Braids is a battle for permanents and board presence, I feel cards like Gemstone Caverns, Crystal Vein, Ebon Stronghold and Mox Diamond are simply sub-optimal. You're trading speed for permanents, and that seems bad. If you play a Braids turn 2 but had to sacrifice or discard lands to do that, chances are you're bound to sacrifice Braids soon, and that's a bad proposition. If you want that, City of Traitors is better since you can play Braids early and then sacrifice City the next turn to her.
I'd also recommend a few more tutors, and running at least Umezawa's Jitte as equipment, since it gains life and takes out creatures. Sword of Feast and Famine works nice with Tangle Wire and Winter Orb and Sword of Fire and Ice draws cards and takes his creatures out, which greatly helps the Braids plan. But I don't feel protecting Braids is that necessary if you manage to keep removal out of your opponents hand with discard. Since you seem to be running a more "play Braids as soon as possible" list, I'd recomend cutting 2 mana rocks and Solemn Simulacrum for Lightning Greaves, Jitte and Sword of FaF.
@fsecco, i knew you were Fernando Secco lol, yea, im indeed brasilian, and i actually know you from facebook
Yea i saw that list, and i was like, wtf he isnt running low on creatures that can come back, and the tutors choice...i donno but diabolic intent doesnt seem that good, i would prefer running cruel tutor for example
Protecting her isnt necessary indeed, but not having any protection at all... the player can always have 1 mana exile stuff.
In my current list im running all those equips, the list you are talking about its @Bal list
and in the worst scenario, how to deal with Nevermore? i played against an GGAV and i just concede when he do that lol
I play Ratchet Bomb to deal with enchantments and Shred Memory to go get it and also double as graveyard hate. Memory gets a lot of good stuff so I find it a good tutor for the deck. Just by getting Ratchet Bomb, Bitterblossom and Umezawa's Jitte it's good enough.
I also play Smokestack and am currently trying out Descent into Madness. But yeah, an early Nevermore hurts.
I'd say that if your opponent is being Braided for a few turns and he manages to topdeck a Swords, it's fine. Braids is also a tempo play sometimes. The only thing I haven't extensively tested yet is a reanimation pack so I can let Braids go to the graveyard if removed, and then reanimate it.
I'm currently playing 0 protection for Braids aside from discard. I wish I had slots for Lightning Greaves and Sword of FaF, but I currently don't.
Oh, and Diabolic Intent is there so he can sac Abyssal Persecutor for the win. It's also a good choice if you have a lot of token-makers. I don't play either.
@Bal, I said you should cut Simulacrum, not add it.
I find it weird that you're winning against fast decks like Kaalia and losing against Maelstrom. How come?
I'm also toying with the idea of playing Engineered Plague against Elfball, Elspeth, tokens in general (and Bitterblossom)
EDIT: OH! Dystopia deals with Nevermore too. Man, Dystopia is a frigging awesome card, how I love it.
rachet bomb! forgot it...
descent into madness i donno, 5cmc for exiling stuffs, didnt appreciate either
protection and finisher tho, with winter orb in game, if you have FaF thats pretty much game in any situation
well im curious to see your list as well
hm yea... i guess i tried to buy something from you, but as a good br student, i dont have money
i only want to test a braids deck, because mostly i have all tutors and fetch lands, since i play as a combo Grenzo
Yeah, Swords are nice with Braids. Greaves is also, specially since I'm running The Abyss. I'm really trying to find slots for them. Maybe I could cut the Nihil Spellbomb I've been playing? I don't want to feel soft to reanimator. Cut Geralf's Messenger? Maybe... but Messenger is so good... I don't know. For now I'll keep Jitte as the only equip and see how it goes.
EDIT: Maybe my post answers itself and tells me I should cut Descent into Madness for Sword of Feast and Famine! Hehehe
but exile is the problem, because like, sac lands with crucible isnt a problem at all but exiling, if you are missing bitterblossom can be dangerous
It just so happens that I've been playing since 94 so I own Nether Void and The Abyss but not stupid things like Gatekeeper of Malakir or Volrath's Stronghold.
On my podcast I'll definitely tackle "budget" options, so check it out once it comes out.
@Magicmarvin91 How's Plunge into Darkness? I don't know if we can ever use the first mode, but gaining life and drawing cards seems awesome. Mycosynth Wellspring and Ichor Wellspring seem nice mini-enablers.
Also, don't play cards that cost more than 4 mana unless they're REALLY, REALLY amazing. That's because you want to play Braids at 4 mana so the only guarantee you have is that you'll have 3-4 mana every given turn.
EDIT: Also, how's Praetor's Grasp? I'd say you can get a Swords or a Wasteland out of almost every opponent's deck, right? And in the mirror it should shine.
You meant Impulse right?
ps: man, edit your posts instead of posting multiple times. Helps us read.
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Lightning Greaves
Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Cruel Tutor
1 Dimir Machinations
1 Shred Memory
discard
1 Distress
1 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
1 Unmask
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Praetor's Grasp
1 Stupor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
creature removal
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Innocent Blood
1 Snuff Out
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Dismember
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Damnation
1 Murderous Cut
1 Sudden Death
Lock
1 Contamination
1 Defense Grid
1 Tangle Wire
1 Smokestack
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
1 Winter Orb
draw
1 Dark Confidant
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Dark Tutelage
1 Plunge into Darkness
1 Read the Bones
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Bitterblossom
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ichor Wellspring
1 Mycosynth Wellspring
1 Tenacious Dead
1 Bloodghast
1 Bloodsoaked Champion
1 Brood of Cockroaches
1 Ophiomancer
1 Reassembling Skeleton
1 Nether Traitor
Land
1 Wasteland
1 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Rishadan Port
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Lake of the Dead
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Homeward Path
23 Snow-Covered Swamp
kill what bothers me
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Dystopia
1 No Mercy
1 Phyrexian Obliterator
1 Abyssal Persecutor
mana rocks
1 Chrome Mox
1 Jet Medallion
1 Charcoal Diamond
1 Mind Stone
Also, Hypnotic Specter is better than Stupor, and I'd even argue that maybe Mesmeric Fiend is better than both.
As far as I like Abyssal Persecutor, I'd say you probably don't need it. Geralf's Messenger fills a similar role, but also buys you a turn with Braids.
I don't like the creatures that are there only as enablers (Tenacious Dead, Bloodsoaked Champion, Brood of Cockroaches and Nether Traitor). I don't have a reason other than personal taste. I'd run 4 land destruction spells over them any day. That said, if you're really going this route, you NEED Skullclamp.
I'm biased to compliment your list, since I helped you a little with card choices over Facebook, but it's the nicest list I've seem so far. Very similar to mine, with a few personal taste changes.
ps: what are you trying to do with Boseiju, Who Shelters All? Seems like such a bad card here...
EDIT:
Also, to help you understand your deck better, I'd change some cards from categories.
Liliana is not a discard spell, since it removes creatures as well. You should create a planeswalkers or other category.
Ichor Wellspring is in the DRAW category, and Mycosynth in the Mana Rocks.
Praetor's Grasp is more of a tutor.
He dies to creature removal, I know. But if your opponent is spending creature removal on him and not on Braids, it's good right? The problem is that if he's your only creature he's worthless...
I talked a bit with @fsecco on facebook and our deck view is a bit different, as I said to him I see the list as a control deck, where I can finish in the middle of the game.
I'm playing with virtually no mana ramp... which can really harm me, but I believe that this list is not so bad and is very well close to being finished...
I'm sure some cards will be questioned, as overwhelming forces, then you notice that it is a card to the late game, where when I play is pretty much a win condition ...
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Cruel Tutor
1 Rhystic Tutor
1 Increasing Ambition
Discart
1 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Wrench Mind
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Blackmail
1 Mind Shatter
1 Hypnotic Specter
Creature Removal
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Geth's Verdict
1 Cruel Edict
1 Damnation
1 Overwhelming Forces
1 Gatekeeper of Malakir
Lock
1 Contamination
1 The Abyss
1 Nether Void
1 Smokestack
1 Grave Pact
Draw
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Underworld Connections
Land Destroys
1 Befoul
1 Sinkhole
1 Stream of Acid
1 Icequake
1 Rain of Tears
1 Rancid Earth
Reanimators
1 Reanimate
1 Beacon of Unrest
1 Necromancy
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
Planeswalkers
1 Liliana Vess
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sorin Markov
1 Bitterblossom
1 Nuisance Engine
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Bloodghast
1 Bloodsoaked Champion
1 Endless Cockroaches
1 Ophiomancer
1 Reassembling Skeleton
1 Nether Traitor
1 Nether Spirit
1 Geralf's Messenger
1 Grave Titan
Mana Ramp
1 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Jet Medallion
1 Black Market
Equipaments
1 Lightning Greaves
Good Stuff's
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Drain Life
Creatures to Beat
1 Nantuko Shade
1 Phyrexian Obliterator
Land
1 Wasteland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Rishadan Port
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Cavern of Souls
1 City of Traitors
1 Desert
1 Dust Bowl
1 High Market
1 Maze of Ith
1 Peat Bog
1 Springjack Pasture
1 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
20 Swamp
My problem with this kind of strategy is that it may work, but it relies too much on Braids herself. Half your deck becomes sub-optimal if your opponent can answer Braids.
Also, Abyssal Persecutor is way better than Nantuko Shade.
I'd also trade Underworld Connections for Dark Tutelage and Beacon of Unrest for Animate Dead.
Even it can be bad positioned in the current meta, I think we can upgrade it to become a better positioned, since we have now many tools to improve the control during the match. Even without the big ramps (like mana vault) we still have some ramps. As you, I like this card, and I think that, since it became recently unbanned, many tools of the deck wasn't explored, and will be. I've looked at many lists, and your too (you and ubiratan), and i'll try to make something more optimized for the field here in my city (fortaleza)
So, my problem with Braids it that is has little wiggle room besides your starting 7 and, say, 3-4 top cards. If that won't help you lock your opponent, there's little you can do afterwards but watch them thrive.
That saide, my take on Braids is probably not the best for the deck. Cards like Chalice of the Void and Chains of Mephistopheles are just bad in Commander, I guess. Also, I realized cutting land destruction is just plain wrong. You need those cards, since they're important to keep your opponent from getting out of hand. I've also seen lists that pack Nature's Ruin and Perish, and I think those are good ideas.
Two cards I flirted with but don't remember mentioning in the cast were Pack Rat and Tombstalker. I've seen them in lists and think they're both solid choices. I tried a delve-heavy version of the deck right when Braids was unbanned, but wasn't very good (Gurmag Angler, Empty the Pits, Murderous Cut, Necropolis Fiend and Tombstalker).
So yeah, I think my list isn't the best Braids can be and the deck deserves better. But it's an uphill battle, and you should know that.
Here's the list I came up during the podcast, for reference.
23 Swamp
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Cavern of Souls
1 City of Traitors
1 Crystal Vein
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
1 Dust Bowl
1 Rishadan Port
1 Wasteland
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Dark Ritual
1 Chrome Mox
1 Expedition Map
1 Jet Medallion
1 Lotus Bloom
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Lodestone Golem
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Dystopia
1 Contamination
1 Infernal Darkness
1 Pithing Needle
1 Smokestack
1 Tangle Wire
1 Winter Orb
1 Nether Void
1 Descent into Madness
1 Nether Spirit
1 Ophiomancer
1 Strionic Resonator
1 Geralf's Messenger
1 Empty the Pits
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Hex Parasite
1 Devour Flesh
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Engineered Plague
1 Drown in Sorrow
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Damnation
1 Blackmail
1 Distress
1 Duress
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
1 Dark Confidant
1 Dark Tutelage
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Night's Whisper
1 Sign in Blood
1 Plunge into Darkness
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Read the Bones
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Cruel Tutor
1 Praetor's Grasp
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Trading Post
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Yawgmoth's Will
I agree with you about land destruction. A Braids deck is all about land destruction in the early stage of the game. It's very difficult to mantain the control if the opponent have 3-4 lands to play spells to be sac (like Marath), and, since we run mana ramps, is easier to get a land in turn 2 if we dont get the braids, or, better, mantain the control after playing braids/lock destroying lands in turns 3/4/5 =)