The idea is simple, don't lose early game sit behind counters tutors board wipe attack mana base, do so because you can still ramp with mana rocks while still sitting on counters, then win with combos outright helm of obedience+rest in peace
Note: also this isn't fully optimized since I do not own duals mishra's workshopmana drain but will take any feedback you have to offer thank you for your time.
Also: zur tutors out win conditions with rip and power artifact can also answer with detention sphere and o ring
Look at Zur as basically necro in your command zone
Note: this is still rough draft of deck, have not played tested to fine tune it yet, will update.. This deck is supposed to work for both 1v1 and multiplayer.. That's how I wanted to make the deck
Your list looks fine. A few suggestions though if you want to make it meaner.
Reliquary Tower/Spellbook are really nice. Early Necropotence, activate 20 times, keep all of them, laugh menacingly.
Draw 7s are the best disruption spells in the early game. I've won by and lost to plays like first or second turn Mana Crypt, Island, Timetwister/Windfall many times. There is a reason you keep an opening hand and then to have it replaced by seven random cards is usually brutal. Also they're great to have since Zur has a tendency to play multiple cards early on an then be in need of reloading. Look into Windfall at least.
I don't like Helm/RiP. Zur needs an alternate win condition that does not involve Power Artifact but the Helm combo restricts you from playing Yawgmoth's Will, one of the most broken cards in Magic. Seemingly random cards in your grave can turn into a win out of nowhere with YawgWin. I'm currently experimenting with Doomsday/Laboratory Maniac as an alternate win con. It's sketchy.
Stroke of Genius is a great secondary target for infinite mana. Sometimes you don't have BB for but you have U. Just a redundant mana outlet.
Consider reworking your mana base. My theory when designing mine was that if I cast Angel's Grace and Ad Nauseam with no mana available can I still win? I put in lots of tricks to make sure I can win no matter what cards are where. Key cards are Turnabout and Chain of Vapor. Chain of Vapor allows you to target your own artifacts when you have infinite mana and replay them to convert colorless to colored at the cost of your already tapped lands.
The next couple of suggestions are meant for metas that specifically target Zur which is any meta that has experience playing against Zur.
You need more targeted removal. This is not for opponents' creatures but for Zur himself. Every time I cast Zur I'm expecting a Gilded Drake to come down after I pass my turn. This is because of the great paradox of playing Zur. You want to get Zur out as fast as possible but if you do that you usually can't protect him but if you wait to protect him you usually play him too late. Removal/bounce is nice to have.
Contamination/Bitterblossom ruins non-black decks. Many players are under the assumption that green doesn't need to run creature or artifact ramp. This combo will change their mind. Also both pieces can be tutored with Zur.
Here is the core version of my Zur the Cutthroat deck.
Concept is solid. My buddy's Zur has a very similar game plan. His list is more streamlined.
Aw shucks. My hate for Derevi is what allows Zur to continue evolving.
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():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered,
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win."
Thank you for that, you have given me something to think about, the reason I run rip helm combo is because my biggest threat in my play group is someone who plays doomsday/storm jeleva, nephalia's scourge and when I face him I will meta more counters and mayb Leyline of the void because it shuts down his yawgwin, but this have given me a load to think about if I want to take it into the storm or doomsday territory with cards like turnabout and yawgwin(I had a dralnu deck all based upon that concept with ad naseum recuring insight and necro)
Note: reliquary is in my actual deck just forgot to put it in list, my feelings are I just don't know if I want to race my buddy who plays storm, if we sit down at a table of rather put the focus on him manipulate players to taking him out, then I can lock down board and combo after.. I still need to play test, haven't played in several months and I'm sure it will be clear once I sit down and mess with the deck a dozen or so times it will be more tuned to how I want it.
Also draw sevens are great, it's what zur is for, he is basically necro in my command zone, but I hear you with this, before I had memory jar in the first stage of rough draft and the ritual effects, I just still need to playtest it to see if I like where it's at, goldfishing only gives so much insight
That being said I will definitly look into the windfall effects
The more I think about it the more I'm pulled to put hurkyl's recall back in the deck, since it's such a good tempo play combined with my go to control card winter orb
I've seen the deck and the original before. I got the idea for Zur from the same source, Bryant Cook's Pile of Broken. I changed the Pile a lot but your friend seems to have most of the original and so it should have a lot of the same weaknesses. Cook's list is slow and from the videos I watched so is your friend's list. Also he prioritizes speed over control which is easy to punish.
Early disruption is key to the match up. So if you want to make your friend into your enemy the key card for this match up is Sadistic Sacrament. Just put it in for one or two games to keep him honest. Cast it turn one or two targeting Tendrils of Agony, Grapeshot and Laboratory Maniac and he'll probably concede or at least look very sad for the rest of the game. It's one of the big weaknesses to both decks that if a few key cards are removed they can no longer win with anything but general damage. He mentions Tidespout Tyrant but it isn't in his list. Side in Bribery if he runs Tidespout. It's easier to get to 3UU than it is to get to 5UUU so you should be able to use it much more often to great effect.
Good luck.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered,
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win."
I've seen the deck and the original before. I got the idea for Zur from the same source, Bryant Cook's Pile of Broken. I changed the Pile a lot but your friend seems to have most of the original and so it should have a lot of the same weaknesses. Cook's list is slow and from the videos I watched so is your friend's list. Also he prioritizes speed over control which is easy to punish.
Early disruption is key to the match up. So if you want to make your friend into your enemy the key card for this match up is Sadistic Sacrament. Just put it in for one or two games to keep him honest. Cast it turn one or two targeting Tendrils of Agony, Grapeshot and Laboratory Maniac and he'll probably concede or at least look very sad for the rest of the game. It's one of the big weaknesses to both decks that if a few key cards are removed they can no longer win with anything but general damage. He mentions Tidespout Tyrant but it isn't in his list. Side in Bribery if he runs Tidespout. It's easier to get to 3UU than it is to get to 5UUU so you should be able to use it much more often to great effect.
Good luck.
Hey now did you just call my deck slow I can't tell if your trying to bait me or not but I'll bite ;). I'll preface by saying your decks looks great and when my buddy Tyler here told me to give it a look yesterday my exact words were "that deck looks a lot more like mine than what you have right now". Looking at our lists side by side yours looks almost strictly slower in that my slowest cards line up with your extra control cards like wraths and your not using doomsday or lions eye Diamond meaning you get less turn 1-3 kills. My decks killing by turn 1-4 8-9 out of 10 games undisrupted the only deck in format with a faster goldfish is hermit Druid and that's just simply slightly more turn 2-3 kills due to a 1G mana barrier. Mostly the difference is in style I would rather go for a faster kill eat a counter and have good odds of just throwing another gas card out and going for the win the next turn while you may prefer waiting that turn and covering that kill with a counter the next. I like the red splash over the white splash due to a few higher impact cards like wheel and I prefer having many routes to victory it's simply more fun. Hermit Druid may be the "best" deck in the format but at a good table that means they get teamed first so that does not mean much. Also meta has a lot to do with things you face dervi so wraths are better for you where I get to skimp. I'm also not sure how you mull but we do not use partial pars mulligans we use regular mulligans this is probly why your optimized land base is 3 lands lighter. That being said we use the same best cards and the weaker cards are the differnve so in the end head to head who gets more sol ring and vamp tutor early is probably sitting better. Now that I'm done ripping you back I invite you to make suggestions in my thread as thier are very few players experienced enough to make meaningful suggestions and I would love to hear your input.
Moving on to my buddy's deck hi Tyler. I think he is more going fir a Brian weissman type build not a Bryant cook type build thier are many viable ways to play zur. While I admit sadistic sacrament is a scary card for me I don't know that it's good for him. I'm a spiteful guy if he wastes a turn stripping my kill cons not only dies he lose tempo but now unless I have a double windfall draw line off notion wheel or ad Nauseam I'm just going to play kingmaker and play to make him lose. So if his plans to make me sad or lose good card but if it's for him to win not so good. I do agree early dusruption is key attack my mana stop my refill but keep in mind this is FFA I'm not the only player at the table letting me take the combo role and teaming me is a solid strategy he's more if a control player anyway. Glad your playing again Tyler we will get some games in this week I look forward to it.
Hey now did you just call my deck slow I can't tell if your trying to bait me or not but I'll bite ;).
By slow I mean in setting up your control presence. It's the difference in control/combo and combo/control. In your videos you prioritize combo and use your control primarily for protection. I'm a focused control player with a combo finisher. Playing Zur during the dark times when first or second turn Sylvan Primordial was a common play and clones were sure to follow has left me with lasting scars so I play with the mentality that I need to stop atrocities from happening even in the early turns. Even now I know that allowing Bloom Tender to become active in Derevi is usually bad times. Also prison strategies are prevalent in my meta and getting to six mana can be difficult unless you have early disruption so I cut my cut off for higher casting cost cards is stricter.
As for Sadistic Sacrament I just imagined what the worst thing that could happen to me early on was and suggested it. I've had Bitter Ordeal come down on me and angry kingmaker is a good description of what I did for the rest of the game.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered,
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win."
Ah I see I misinterpreted you sorry for that I get misinterpreted quite often so I understand . Yes that is exactly how I play. Swift is one if the most knowledgable players on this site when it comes to competitive edh so I know you have a great meta. Your deck does look incredibly tight by the way I love it just not my style I'm very much combo/control. Yet again sorry for getting defensive taking what you said the wrong way when I saw you say my deck is slow I nearly ***** myself yes I agree you need to hit me in my early turns as if I get interacted with early I will often stumble and be forced to all in or lose and yes I think I even say in my thread SS scares the crap out if me though the last few times it hit me was against noobs on mtgo and they grabbed all the wrong cards. Thanks for your input here my buddy appreciates it.
hey sorry, how do you get infinite mana? im new to that sort of thing so the combo doesnt stick out to me
So you cast either Grim Monolith or Basalt Monolith and then attach Power Artifact to it by either casting it or using Zur's ability to put it into play. The Monolith with Power produces a positive gain of colorless mana whenever you tap it for colorless and then pay to untap it with its activated ability. So tap for mana, pay to untap at the reduced cost and repeat ad nauseam.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered,
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win."
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1 zur the enchanter
Mana rocks: 17
1 mana crypt
1 sol ring
1 mana vault
1 Mox opal
1 Mox diamond
1 chrome Mox
1 grim monolith
1 gilded lotus
1 Azorious signet
1 dimir signet
1 talisman of dominance
1 talisman of progress
1 thran Dynamo
1 coalition relic
1 fel war stone
1 ever flowing chalice
1 khalni gem
Artifacts: 5
1 sensei's divining top
1 scroll rack
1 winter orb
1 helm of obedience
1 sculpting steel
Cantrips: 9
1 brainstorm
1 ponder
1 impulse
1 frantic search
1 fact or fiction
1 ad nauseam
1 dig through time
1 thirst for knowledge
1 treasure cruise
1 vampiric tutor
1 enlightened tutor
1 mystical tutor
1 demonic tutor
1 intuition
1 fabricate
1 tezzeret the seeker
1 transmute artifact
Spells: 9
1 armageddon
1 cyclonic rift
1 mindtwist
1 angel's grace
1 hurkyl's recall
1 disenchant
1 exsanguinate
1 thoughtsieze
1 terminus
Counterspells: 13
1 counter spell
1 force of will
1 muddle the mixture
1 mana leak
1 remand
1 pact of negation
1 hinder
1 forbid
1 arcane denial
1 delay
1 spell crumple
1 fluster storm
1 cryptic command
Enchantments: 7
1 necropotence
1 rest in peace
1 oblivion ring
1 detention sphere
1 copy artifact
1 land tax
1 power artifact
1 Phyrexian metamorph
1 trinket mage
Lands: 29
1 command tower
1 reflecting pool
1 forbidden orchard
1 exotic orchard
1 mystic gate
1 sunken ruins
1 hallowed fountain
1 watery grave
1 godless shrine
1 misty rainforest
1 scalding tarn
1 arid mesa
1 windswept heath
1 marsh flats
1 verdant catacombs
1 polluted delta
1 flooded strand
1 bloodstained mire
1 strip mine
1 tolaria west
1 cavern of souls
1 underground river
1 ardarkar wastes
1 ancient tomb
2 island
1 swamp
1 plains
The idea is simple, don't lose early game sit behind counters tutors board wipe attack mana base, do so because you can still ramp with mana rocks while still sitting on counters, then win with combos outright helm of obedience+rest in peace
exsanguinate+power artifact+grim monolith
ad naseum+angel's grace
Honorable mentions:
hurkyl's recall
swan song
etherium sculptor
future sight
memory lapse
Note: also this isn't fully optimized since I do not own duals mishra's workshop mana drain but will take any feedback you have to offer thank you for your time.
Also: zur tutors out win conditions with rip and power artifact can also answer with detention sphere and o ring
Look at Zur as basically necro in your command zone
Note: this is still rough draft of deck, have not played tested to fine tune it yet, will update.. This deck is supposed to work for both 1v1 and multiplayer.. That's how I wanted to make the deck
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Reliquary Tower/Spellbook are really nice. Early Necropotence, activate 20 times, keep all of them, laugh menacingly.
Draw 7s are the best disruption spells in the early game. I've won by and lost to plays like first or second turn Mana Crypt, Island, Timetwister/Windfall many times. There is a reason you keep an opening hand and then to have it replaced by seven random cards is usually brutal. Also they're great to have since Zur has a tendency to play multiple cards early on an then be in need of reloading. Look into Windfall at least.
I don't like Helm/RiP. Zur needs an alternate win condition that does not involve Power Artifact but the Helm combo restricts you from playing Yawgmoth's Will, one of the most broken cards in Magic. Seemingly random cards in your grave can turn into a win out of nowhere with YawgWin. I'm currently experimenting with Doomsday/Laboratory Maniac as an alternate win con. It's sketchy.
Stroke of Genius is a great secondary target for infinite mana. Sometimes you don't have BB for but you have U. Just a redundant mana outlet.
Consider reworking your mana base. My theory when designing mine was that if I cast Angel's Grace and Ad Nauseam with no mana available can I still win? I put in lots of tricks to make sure I can win no matter what cards are where. Key cards are Turnabout and Chain of Vapor. Chain of Vapor allows you to target your own artifacts when you have infinite mana and replay them to convert colorless to colored at the cost of your already tapped lands.
The next couple of suggestions are meant for metas that specifically target Zur which is any meta that has experience playing against Zur.
You need more targeted removal. This is not for opponents' creatures but for Zur himself. Every time I cast Zur I'm expecting a Gilded Drake to come down after I pass my turn. This is because of the great paradox of playing Zur. You want to get Zur out as fast as possible but if you do that you usually can't protect him but if you wait to protect him you usually play him too late. Removal/bounce is nice to have.
Contamination/Bitterblossom ruins non-black decks. Many players are under the assumption that green doesn't need to run creature or artifact ramp. This combo will change their mind. Also both pieces can be tutored with Zur.
Here is the core version of my Zur the Cutthroat deck.
1 Zur the Enchanter
Creatures (3)
1 Dark Confidant
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Trinket Mage
Spells (44)
1 Angel's Grace
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Arcane Denial
1 Boomerang
1 Brainstorm
1 Bribery
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Cataclysm
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Counterspell
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Exsanguinate
1 Force of Will
1 Frantic Search
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 High Tide
1 Imperial Seal
1 Mana Drain
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Misdirection
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Pact of Negation
1 Ponder
1 Pongify
1 Preordain
1 Rapid Hybridization
1 Reanimate
1 Rewind
1 Silence
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Terminus
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Thoughtseize
1 Timetwister
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Turnabout
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Wash Out
1 Windfall
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Bitterblossom
1 Contamination
1 Detention Sphere
1 Land Tax
1 Necromancy
1 Necropotence
1 Power Artifact
1 Prison Term
Artifacts (18)
1 Azorius Signet
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Chrome Mox
1 Dimir Signet
1 Expedition Map
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Grim Monolith
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Opal
1 Scroll Rack
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Spellbook
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Talisman of Progress
Lands (26)
1 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Brass
1 Command Tower
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Flooded Strand
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Scrubland
1 Seachrome Coast
9 Snow-Covered Island
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Tolaria West
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Watery Grave
If you have any more questions let me know.
Aw shucks. My hate for Derevi is what allows Zur to continue evolving.
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win."
Note: reliquary is in my actual deck just forgot to put it in list, my feelings are I just don't know if I want to race my buddy who plays storm, if we sit down at a table of rather put the focus on him manipulate players to taking him out, then I can lock down board and combo after.. I still need to play test, haven't played in several months and I'm sure it will be clear once I sit down and mess with the deck a dozen or so times it will be more tuned to how I want it.
Also draw sevens are great, it's what zur is for, he is basically necro in my command zone, but I hear you with this, before I had memory jar in the first stage of rough draft and the ritual effects, I just still need to playtest it to see if I like where it's at, goldfishing only gives so much insight
That being said I will definitly look into the windfall effects
Ps: this is my buddy btw the one who I'm going up against http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/572535-jeleva-grixis-storm
I've seen the deck and the original before. I got the idea for Zur from the same source, Bryant Cook's Pile of Broken. I changed the Pile a lot but your friend seems to have most of the original and so it should have a lot of the same weaknesses. Cook's list is slow and from the videos I watched so is your friend's list. Also he prioritizes speed over control which is easy to punish.
Early disruption is key to the match up. So if you want to make your friend into your enemy the key card for this match up is Sadistic Sacrament. Just put it in for one or two games to keep him honest. Cast it turn one or two targeting Tendrils of Agony, Grapeshot and Laboratory Maniac and he'll probably concede or at least look very sad for the rest of the game. It's one of the big weaknesses to both decks that if a few key cards are removed they can no longer win with anything but general damage. He mentions Tidespout Tyrant but it isn't in his list. Side in Bribery if he runs Tidespout. It's easier to get to 3UU than it is to get to 5UUU so you should be able to use it much more often to great effect.
Good luck.
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win."
Hey now did you just call my deck slow I can't tell if your trying to bait me or not but I'll bite ;). I'll preface by saying your decks looks great and when my buddy Tyler here told me to give it a look yesterday my exact words were "that deck looks a lot more like mine than what you have right now". Looking at our lists side by side yours looks almost strictly slower in that my slowest cards line up with your extra control cards like wraths and your not using doomsday or lions eye Diamond meaning you get less turn 1-3 kills. My decks killing by turn 1-4 8-9 out of 10 games undisrupted the only deck in format with a faster goldfish is hermit Druid and that's just simply slightly more turn 2-3 kills due to a 1G mana barrier. Mostly the difference is in style I would rather go for a faster kill eat a counter and have good odds of just throwing another gas card out and going for the win the next turn while you may prefer waiting that turn and covering that kill with a counter the next. I like the red splash over the white splash due to a few higher impact cards like wheel and I prefer having many routes to victory it's simply more fun. Hermit Druid may be the "best" deck in the format but at a good table that means they get teamed first so that does not mean much. Also meta has a lot to do with things you face dervi so wraths are better for you where I get to skimp. I'm also not sure how you mull but we do not use partial pars mulligans we use regular mulligans this is probly why your optimized land base is 3 lands lighter. That being said we use the same best cards and the weaker cards are the differnve so in the end head to head who gets more sol ring and vamp tutor early is probably sitting better. Now that I'm done ripping you back I invite you to make suggestions in my thread as thier are very few players experienced enough to make meaningful suggestions and I would love to hear your input.
Moving on to my buddy's deck hi Tyler. I think he is more going fir a Brian weissman type build not a Bryant cook type build thier are many viable ways to play zur. While I admit sadistic sacrament is a scary card for me I don't know that it's good for him. I'm a spiteful guy if he wastes a turn stripping my kill cons not only dies he lose tempo but now unless I have a double windfall draw line off notion wheel or ad Nauseam I'm just going to play kingmaker and play to make him lose. So if his plans to make me sad or lose good card but if it's for him to win not so good. I do agree early dusruption is key attack my mana stop my refill but keep in mind this is FFA I'm not the only player at the table letting me take the combo role and teaming me is a solid strategy he's more if a control player anyway. Glad your playing again Tyler we will get some games in this week I look forward to it.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
By slow I mean in setting up your control presence. It's the difference in control/combo and combo/control. In your videos you prioritize combo and use your control primarily for protection. I'm a focused control player with a combo finisher. Playing Zur during the dark times when first or second turn Sylvan Primordial was a common play and clones were sure to follow has left me with lasting scars so I play with the mentality that I need to stop atrocities from happening even in the early turns. Even now I know that allowing Bloom Tender to become active in Derevi is usually bad times. Also prison strategies are prevalent in my meta and getting to six mana can be difficult unless you have early disruption so I cut my cut off for higher casting cost cards is stricter.
As for Sadistic Sacrament I just imagined what the worst thing that could happen to me early on was and suggested it. I've had Bitter Ordeal come down on me and angry kingmaker is a good description of what I did for the rest of the game.
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win."
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
So you cast either Grim Monolith or Basalt Monolith and then attach Power Artifact to it by either casting it or using Zur's ability to put it into play. The Monolith with Power produces a positive gain of colorless mana whenever you tap it for colorless and then pay to untap it with its activated ability. So tap for mana, pay to untap at the reduced cost and repeat ad nauseam.
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win."