Hey everyone, starting to build my Azusa, Lost but Seeking deck, but have hit a snag and thought that this would be the best place to look for some help. I'm needing help cutting cards. Also, I'm getting multiple suggestions about what to add back. Seeing as you all have helped me in the past, I would ask for suggestions once again.
I've been playing Azua for a little while now, and while I can't say my deck is the best, I'll try and give you some insight into what has and hasn't worked for me.
Cards that I don't particularly like: Archetype of Endurance - I've never really liked this card. Hexproof is good, but it doesn't protect against board wipes, and if you're playing more high-value ETB creatures than big, swingy fatties, they'll have done their damage before spot removal can kick in. Asceticism works much better because the regenerate clause is occasionally relevant and its CMC is more appropriate to its effect. Colossus of Akros - Simply too much mana investment for the return. For this cost, you should have a threat doing much more damage (and not in terms of life), like the Eldrazi or Blightsteel Colossus. Worldspine Wurm - About the same problem. The stats and abilities are obviously good, but for a CMC of eleven it should win the game outright.
Azusa probably ramps harder than just about any deck in the format, but mana efficiency on cards is still a thing even for a deck like this. In my experience, I can get to about 7-8 mana extremely quickly (turn three or four), but at that point I'm running low on cards in hand and really have to establish some CA engines. At that point, I'd really hate to be stuck with something like Worldspine Wurm in my hand. A Steel Hellkite or Terastodon, comparatively, could just run away with the game.
Vigor - Seems very french vanilla in EDH to me. No protection from removal (spot removal against Vigor can be a huge blowout against you) and your team can just be flown over anyway. Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger - In my experience, mana doublers are only worth playing when you get value out of them immediately, and with Vclex's mana cost that's unlikely to happen. Quite often he just says "your Doom Blade mana doesn't untap." I don't think Azusa needs the help getting to extreme amounts of mana anyway so he could be better as something else. Squall Line - The one thing this card has going for it is that it can be used as a win-con if your life is high. If you need more help against fliers, I would consider Predator, Flagship first (if you need repeatable removal) followed by Duplicant or Brittle Effigy if a one-shot is enough. Abundance - However wrong it sounds, I feel like draw in Azusa should be more about quantity than quality - considering how badly you want to have 2-3 lands to drop every turn. Lignify - I think other removal options, like Duplicant, would be stronger here. Primeval Bounty - The most-used part of this card is going to be the lifegain, and I don't really think it's going to be worth enough. Adding extra 3/3s to the table is good, but I think there are better options. Garruk, Caller of Beasts - with only 24 creatures in your deck, this guy just mathematically doesn't work. His +1 drawing just one creature is not going to be good enough, and cheating creatures into play has much less value in Azusa, especially when those creatures have to be green and you're running Eldrazi. Beacon of Creation - This can create a lot of tokens, but I just don't find an army of 1/1s that impressive, even with a few overruns in the deck. Avenger, Baloths, or even Wolfbriar Elemental (just for the ability being on a creature) are far superior. Boundless Realms - It might feel nice to have every single land in your deck in play, but functionally, it doesn't really matter. Harmonize - Concentrate wouldn't be played in Blue, and Green isn't hurting enough for draw to play a functional reprint. I think you have enough good draw engines that you won't be hurting for cards, and if you are, I think there are better choices. Overwhelming Stampede - You have Craterhoof Behemoth and Kamahl for this effect on creatures, so I don't think the sorcery is necessary. Primal Command - Tutoring a creature is nice, but the other modes are underwhelming. The best one is the grave hate, but you still have much more efficient tutors in the deck even with that upside.
Cards I would at least consider: Primordial Sage, Soul of the Harvest, and Garruk's Packleader - you might have to increase your creature count a bit to get full value out of these, but these are the first cards I would consider including. Soul of the Harvest is, IMO, the best card to ramp into the turn after Azusa comes down. Duplicant - I said enough about it before, but exile removal on a creature body goes a long way for Mono-G. Lotus Cobra - Landfall cards are exceptionally good in Azusa and this is the guy that actually makes it possible to be casting Eldrazi on turn four or five. Expedition Map - If you need more tutors for Cradle, and you can never have enough tutors for cradle. Courser of Kruphix - A less-good version of Oracle, but that still puts it pretty high on the list.
Cycle lands - Lands with Cycling and Life From the Loam is a great way to draw cards or to just burn through your deck to win with Creeping Renaissance. Haunted Fengraf - No, seriously. Creature recursion on a land, even if it's random, can be pretty strong. It's an amazing source of bodies with Crucible. And it only takes the place of a forest. Buried Ruin - This card and Crucible protect each other, and it's a great way to get back Horn of Greed or other key artifacts.
I've been playing Azua for a little while now, and while I can't say my deck is the best, I'll try and give you some insight into what has and hasn't worked for me.
Cards that I don't particularly like: Archetype of Endurance - I've never really liked this card. Hexproof is good, but it doesn't protect against board wipes, and if you're playing more high-value ETB creatures than big, swingy fatties, they'll have done their damage before spot removal can kick in. Asceticism works much better because the regenerate clause is occasionally relevant and its CMC is more appropriate to its effect. Colossus of Akros - Simply too much mana investment for the return. For this cost, you should have a threat doing much more damage (and not in terms of life), like the Eldrazi or Blightsteel Colossus. Worldspine Wurm - About the same problem. The stats and abilities are obviously good, but for a CMC of eleven it should win the game outright.
Azusa probably ramps harder than just about any deck in the format, but mana efficiency on cards is still a thing even for a deck like this. In my experience, I can get to about 7-8 mana extremely quickly (turn three or four), but at that point I'm running low on cards in hand and really have to establish some CA engines. At that point, I'd really hate to be stuck with something like Worldspine Wurm in my hand. A Steel Hellkite or Terastodon, comparatively, could just run away with the game.
Vigor - Seems very french vanilla in EDH to me. No protection from removal (spot removal against Vigor can be a huge blowout against you) and your team can just be flown over anyway. Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger - In my experience, mana doublers are only worth playing when you get value out of them immediately, and with Vclex's mana cost that's unlikely to happen. Quite often he just says "your Doom Blade mana doesn't untap." I don't think Azusa needs the help getting to extreme amounts of mana anyway so he could be better as something else. Squall Line - The one thing this card has going for it is that it can be used as a win-con if your life is high. If you need more help against fliers, I would consider Predator, Flagship first (if you need repeatable removal) followed by Duplicant or Brittle Effigy if a one-shot is enough. Abundance - However wrong it sounds, I feel like draw in Azusa should be more about quantity than quality - considering how badly you want to have 2-3 lands to drop every turn. Lignify - I think other removal options, like Duplicant, would be stronger here. Primeval Bounty - The most-used part of this card is going to be the lifegain, and I don't really think it's going to be worth enough. Adding extra 3/3s to the table is good, but I think there are better options. Garruk, Caller of Beasts - with only 24 creatures in your deck, this guy just mathematically doesn't work. His +1 drawing just one creature is not going to be good enough, and cheating creatures into play has much less value in Azusa, especially when those creatures have to be green and you're running Eldrazi. Beacon of Creation - This can create a lot of tokens, but I just don't find an army of 1/1s that impressive, even with a few overruns in the deck. Avenger, Baloths, or even Wolfbriar Elemental (just for the ability being on a creature) are far superior. Boundless Realms - It might feel nice to have every single land in your deck in play, but functionally, it doesn't really matter. Harmonize - Concentrate wouldn't be played in Blue, and Green isn't hurting enough for draw to play a functional reprint. I think you have enough good draw engines that you won't be hurting for cards, and if you are, I think there are better choices. Overwhelming Stampede - You have Craterhoof Behemoth and Kamahl for this effect on creatures, so I don't think the sorcery is necessary. Primal Command - Tutoring a creature is nice, but the other modes are underwhelming. The best one is the grave hate, but you still have much more efficient tutors in the deck even with that upside.
Cards I would at least consider: Primordial Sage, Soul of the Harvest, and Garruk's Packleader - you might have to increase your creature count a bit to get full value out of these, but these are the first cards I would consider including. Soul of the Harvest is, IMO, the best card to ramp into the turn after Azusa comes down. Duplicant - I said enough about it before, but exile removal on a creature body goes a long way for Mono-G. Lotus Cobra - Landfall cards are exceptionally good in Azusa and this is the guy that actually makes it possible to be casting Eldrazi on turn four or five. Expedition Map - If you need more tutors for Cradle, and you can never have enough tutors for cradle. Courser of Kruphix - A less-good version of Oracle, but that still puts it pretty high on the list.
Cycle lands - Lands with Cycling and Life From the Loam is a great way to draw cards or to just burn through your deck to win with Creeping Renaissance. Haunted Fengraf - No, seriously. Creature recursion on a land, even if it's random, can be pretty strong. It's an amazing source of bodies with Crucible. And it only takes the place of a forest. Buried Ruin - This card and Crucible protect each other, and it's a great way to get back Horn of Greed or other key artifacts.
Now this is the reason I came here. To get some opinions from experienced players. I had a look at your suggestions and they made quite alot of sense to me. I believe that I will be modifying the deck now. If you have the time, please take a look at the list again and see if you can find anything I can cut to get down to 100, please.
You have Sylvan Scrying, Expedition Map, and Crop Rotation. What are those single lands you are looking for and are they so central to your plan that you need tutors for them? Could those slots be better served either being cut or replaced with something like Sprouting Vines, which interacts in cool ways with Azusa.
Also, this may not be true to Azusa, but I feel like Dryad Arbor is always a trap. Mass creature removal spells are so common in this format; the artifact lands got cut from my decks because losing lands to Austere Command just makes you not want to play. A 1/1 is almost irreverent in Commander, you would probably be better served running a Forest in its place.
Honestly, the general issue I'm seeing here is that your early game could maybe use a bit of work, which mostly would involve checking out other Azusa decklists for what their early-game plans are.
What is your playgroup like? Are you guys super competitive or laid back casual players? That distinction can determine what kind of suggestions are made.
You have Sylvan Scrying, Expedition Map, and Crop Rotation. What are those single lands you are looking for and are they so central to your plan that you need tutors for them? Could those slots be better served either being cut or replaced with something like Sprouting Vines, which interacts in cool ways with Azusa.
Also, this may not be true to Azusa, but I feel like Dryad Arbor is always a trap. Mass creature removal spells are so common in this format; the artifact lands got cut from my decks because losing lands to Austere Command just makes you not want to play. A 1/1 is almost irreverent in Commander, you would probably be better served running a Forest in its place.
Mostly tutoring for Gaea's Cradle and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. The tutors will help with that. I might be able to cut one.
As for the Dryad Arbor, I'm had previous success with it in other decks and using Green Sun's Zenith to get it out turn one for even more ramp.
Honestly, the general issue I'm seeing here is that your early game could maybe use a bit of work, which mostly would involve checking out other Azusa decklists for what their early-game plans are.
I can see that with the fetches, but I don't already own them, so it would take some time to be able to get the extra money up. Thank you for that idea, though. Also, Burgeoning was originally in the list, but somehow got cut. I believe I might add it back in.
What is your playgroup like? Are you guys super competitive or laid back casual players? That distinction can determine what kind of suggestions are made.
We tend to be a fairly laid back group, but there are two guys that don't take the time to actually get all the cards for their decks and just proxy half a deck at a time. That has increased the overall power level of the group. So, if I had to qualify it, I would say mild-competitive.
I noticed you're on 102 cards, so I sugegst droppping Genesis and Soul of New Phyrexia.
Genesis looks good on paper, but in reality is slow and making it go to graveyard and keeping it there is a problem -- especially when the Eldrazi shuffle your GY back into library.
Soul of New Phyrexia OTOH is a very defensive card -- it promotes leaving relatively lot of mana untapped every turn just for protection sake and I can't see how you could pull it off reliably with your list.
To be honest, though, you're not running enough lands. Azusa is all about ramp. Having enough lands to follow up turn 2/3 Azusa is a must. Right now you could be running, say, Kamahl in her place and the deck wouldn't play much differently.
I have considered it, but I really want to play Azusa. Also, you recommend more land. About what amount do you recommend for this deck? I tend to agree with the dropping of Genesis and Soul of New Phyrexia. They tend to be some of the least integral pieces of the deck.
I have considered it, but I really want to play Azusa. Also, you recommend more land. About what amount do you recommend for this deck?
Oh, I didn't sugegst switching Azusa to some other green commander. What I meant was you're not taking advantage of what your commander offers, which is early game ramp. I'm running 52 lands currently and would love to squeeze 3-4 more in but my list is as tight as it can possibly be (al least in my books). My build is an aggressive land based Azusa. There are other builds but reliable competitive Azusa lists run, AFAIR, 44 lands at the very least.
Ah, I solitaire'd the deck a few times on cockatrice and I see why you talk about more lands. I will have to see what I can cut to make room for a few more.
I've always felt playing ramp spells in Azusa is kinda silly. Fill your hand up and protect her, instead of worrying about ramp spells, especially non-efficient ones. Focus on ramp spells that get Azusa out a turn early and protecting her, of which there are very few other than mana dorks. Burgeoning and Exploration are pretty much worse than a mana dork most of the time in my mind for this specific deck - if your general was a Howling Mine, you wouldn't play one, right?
Mana doublers that don't do much, similarly, are something of trap cards in EDH. They give you huge negative tempo swings and are functionally card disadvantage.
When you think about mana dorks with Azusa, think about a hand that's keepable if Burgeoning is a mana dork: land, land, burgeoning, X, X, X, X is not a keepable hand.
Land land, elvish mystic, x, x, x, x, is totally keepable.
I'd avoid enchantments except the absolute strongest ones (e.g. Sylvan Library, Survival of the Fittest, Asceticism maybe) and try to use dudes to do your work wherever you can. Green excels at finding creatures, undercosted fatties, and destroying non-creature permanents. You don't want to be in a situation where you have no blockers and a bunch of useless enchantments.
Glimpse of nature is a card I would absolutely play that you're not. Additionally, Natural Order, Survival of the Fittest, and Oath of druids. Possibly Wild Pair if you feel like it. Birthing Pod is critical imho also.
Also, there are some very good lands you're not running. Yavimaya Hollow is one I can think of.
Another sleeper in EDH that I'd give a look at is Arbor Colossus. He's a big fat bastard and there's always a flier to kill. Plus he turns on Nykthos, birthing pods into Soul of the Harvest, and is cool looking to boot.
Bane of Progress I feel is an auto-include in green EDH. Even if you have enchantments of your own you'll want to be able to birthing pod or survival him up to stop many kinds of bullsquat.
I've always felt playing ramp spells in Azusa is kinda silly. Fill your hand up and protect her, instead of worrying about ramp spells, especially non-efficient ones. Focus on ramp spells that get Azusa out a turn early and protecting her, of which there are very few other than mana dorks. Burgeoning and Exploration are pretty much worse than a mana dork most of the time in my mind for this specific deck - if your general was a Howling Mine, you wouldn't play one, right?
Mana doublers that don't do much, similarly, are something of trap cards in EDH. They give you huge negative tempo swings and are functionally card disadvantage.
When you think about mana dorks with Azusa, think about a hand that's keepable if Burgeoning is a mana dork: land, land, burgeoning, X, X, X, X is not a keepable hand.
Land land, elvish mystic, x, x, x, x, is totally keepable.
I'd avoid enchantments except the absolute strongest ones (e.g. Sylvan Library, Survival of the Fittest, Asceticism maybe) and try to use dudes to do your work wherever you can. Green excels at finding creatures, undercosted fatties, and destroying non-creature permanents. You don't want to be in a situation where you have no blockers and a bunch of useless enchantments.
Glimpse of nature is a card I would absolutely play that you're not. Additionally, Natural Order, Survival of the Fittest, and Oath of druids. Possibly Wild Pair if you feel like it. Birthing Pod is critical imho also.
Also, there are some very good lands you're not running. Yavimaya Hollow is one I can think of.
I tend to like the idea of mana dorks. Do you recommend I drop the ramp spells and throw in some to help ramp? Sounds like a definite possibility. I'm not sure how I feel about the cards like exploration and burgeoning. I think I can do without Burgeoning and put a mana dork in it's place. I like Exploration, so I don't think I can bring myself to remove it. Also, the mana doublers, you really think they hinder a deck like this? I can see the point, they really don't do much if a hand of little land. Kinda makes sense. I will consider the removal. Also, I had cut Yavimaya Hollow from the list back a while ago for some reason and I'm not sure why. Will have to include it again.
Another sleeper in EDH that I'd give a look at is Arbor Colossus. He's a big fat bastard and there's always a flier to kill. Plus he turns on Nykthos, birthing pods into Soul of the Harvest, and is cool looking to boot.
Bane of Progress I feel is an auto-include in green EDH. Even if you have enchantments of your own you'll want to be able to birthing pod or survival him up to stop many kinds of bullsquat.
Not sure how I feel about Arbor Colossus. I like it, it can handle flyers, and it destroys a flier with Monstrosity. I'm not sure, I might have to include it. I can definitely see including Bane of Progress. Will have to add it to the list. Not sure about Birthing Pod in this list. Will have to think about that one.
NP. I tend to not like the mana doublers much, although if I was going to pick two it'd be Vorinclex and Mana Reflection (since it at least works on all mana sources, unlike caged sun). It doesn't seem like you really need 20 or 30 mana to win with Azusa; you win by being first to big fattie, not necessarily by generating 8 million manas.
Think about most games, and whether you'd rather be resolving a high impact play at 6 mana or mana reflection. My experience has been that most games, wasting "power play" turns like when you hit 6 or 7 mana giving up an entire turn of tempo is not the best.
With creatures like Soul of the Harvest and Primordial Sage and Regal Force, you need to be putting creatures in play not do nothing enchantments. So much of your card draw is creature dependent, so you need to be drawing more than one every 4 turns, and you need to be tutoring for them.
The only enchantments I would run in Azusa are (and some of them are dudes also :)).
Courser of Kruphix (because card advantage)
Nylea, God of the Hunt (tramples and mana sink)
Survival of the Fittest (yay)
Greater Good (cards)
Sylvan Library (cards)
Maybe Utopia Sprawl (enables t2 Azusa almost all of the time)
From an Artifact perspective, I'd like to see:
Sol Ring
Crucible of Worlds
Maybe Lightning Greaves
Expedition Map (maybe; I'd probably chuck that one and use Crop Rotation, since sweet landfall trigger action)
Ramp package:
1
Elvish Mystic
Fyndhorn Elves
Llanowar Elves
Boreal Druid
Arbor Elf
Maaaybe Skyshroud Ranger or Sakura tribe scout.
Possibly Utopia Sprawl or Wild Growth, although dubious on those
2
Lotus Cobra
3
Maybe Wood Elves or Farhaven elf as a birthing pod guy only
Here's a rough list of cuts that I would make, and try to get more creatures and creature tutors in there.
Cuts I would make:
Worldly tutor
Momentous Fall
Summoner's Pact
Regrowth
City of Solitude (-> Dosan of the Fallen Leaf)
Recycle
Concordant Crossroads
Mind's Eye
Gauntlet of Power
Caged Sun
Nevinyrral's Disk (I'd probably keep either this OR O Stone; Ostone has the advantage of being hilarious with Seedborn Muse, which you may want to try)
Oblivion Stone (keep if you stick Seedborn Muse in there, maybe replace with bane of Progress)
Predator Flagship (-> Arbor Colossus - draws you cards! Maybe Arashi the Sky Asunder instead. Nice thing about Arby is he really juices up Nykthos)
Exploration
Burgeoning
Mana reflection (-> Vorinclex, if you keep a mana doubler)
Expedition Map
Also, don't think twice about Birthing pod. It is frigging insanely good in EDH. Birthing Pod and Survival of the Fittest are the two cornerstones to monogreen in my opinion, allowing you to fish out answers and turn your crappy late game draws into huge value. I like Natural Order too and Fauna Shaman is worth considering.
I'd agree with you on every count except Bane and Survival. My experience playing even a slightly enchantment heavy deck [Wort Tokens with all the doublers] was that Bane almost always proved to be asymmetrical, shutting down any possibility of people coming back. It answers a lot of busted board states and leaves you with a sizable creature. Never regretted playing it.
Survival - well, it's a great outlet for mana dorks if you get your creature count high enough, and especially strong with some toolbox creatures like Reclamation Sage, Eternal Witness, Acidic Slime, etc.
Also, it'll take some experimentation to get the # of mana dorks right. In my experience with decks trying to accelerate commander by a turn, the number of ramp slots you want dedicated to that ranges from 5-8 depending on how serious you are. With Azusa, pretty effing serious that you want to start emptying your hand of lands by turn 2 - before people have Hinder / Spell Crumple mana up.
Azusa is one of the lists where Boseiju is pretty decent, because it doesn't kill your land drop so badly. I'd definitely try it out.
Much like birthing pod, Survival really goes with using toolbox creatures. If you're not using them I wouldn't bother; Tooth & Nail / GSZ / maybe Natural Order will get the job done.
That said, I feel like Azusa is better with a higher creature count. Green can do almost everything with creatures and while they are more vulnerable, if you've got a solid card
advantage / selection engine going they're going to be stronger.
I can see the argument to using fewer things that make you overextend, and just trying to ramp into dropping huge threats, but I generally think it's a less consistent strategy than curving out creatures and turning them into cards. Green doesn't draw a lot of cards without creature fuel. Just this man's opinion though, YMMV, etc.
Predator Flagship
Garruk's Packleader
Mind's Eye (I just feel like it's usually a questionable card)
Rampaging Baloths - it's good, but not amazing.
Praetor's counsel - as good as it is I think it's one of your better cuts; Creeping Renaissance will do the job and it flashes back.
-You have Courser of Kruphix listed twice
One or two forests
Predator Flagship
Garruk's Packleader
Mind's Eye (I just feel like it's usually a questionable card)
Rampaging Baloths - it's good, but not amazing.
Praetor's counsel - as good as it is I think it's one of your better cuts; Creeping Renaissance will do the job and it flashes back.
-You have Courser of Kruphix listed twice
One or two forests
I'd ditch:
Arbor Colossus — 11 mana to destroy a single flier with reach? I’d pass…
Dosan — shines only in blue heavy metas…
Lotus Cobra — people like the mana, but forget they need to have something to play…
Primordial Sage — promotes overextending…
Soul of the Harvest — same thing…
Asceticism — does not protect from serious boardwipes (which do not allow regenertaion)…
Concordant Crossroads — yes, haste is nice, but this card is extremely unreliable…
Karn - other cards destroy stuff and one activation for 7 mana is steep…
Genesis Wave — call me crazy, but I found this card to be unreliable. Too many times I flipped great instants and sorceries, that I don’t play it anymore…
and then played some games, tested the deck and maybe brought something back.
The more I look at Arbor Colossus, the more I'm not sure. Will take some more thought.
When it comes to Dosan the Falling Leaf, my meta has two player that are heavy blue players. He will stay.
I originally had cut Lotus Cobra, but I have multiple people tell me it was a really good idea. I will have to definitely consider how much use I will get out of it. Primordial Sage and Soul of the Harvest will most likely stay. I will need the card draw to be able to deal with some of the faster decks in my meta.
With Asceticism, I am still on the fence. My meta doesn't run alot of board wipes, so I'm not sure.
I don't have alot of ways to interact with my opponents, so I believe I will leave Karn Liberated.
I really want to run Genesis Wave, so I will learn the lesson the hard way if it's not worth keeping.
Thank you very much, I really appreciate your suggestions. The knowledge you have imparted to me is greatly appreciated.
All your points are valid, so sure... do test them. Two observations, though:
If you really need the flier protection, Hornet Queen will be miles better than Arbor Colossus, especially with Craterhoof.
Lotus Cobra is outstanding in the early game. Later, when you have the mana laying around or your hand is not full of lands, it's very very meh.
Good luck with your list! Please do report back your observations -- not many Azusa players left here nowadays, so I any discussion is much appreciated ;-)
If you have the time, would you mind sharing your list with me? Would definitely help with fine tuning mine.
Curve is an important thing to remember; a lot of times you need something blocking a Baneslayer on turn 3 or 4, not turn 5 or 6. Hornet Queen is CMC 7.
Personally I think Arby is better than Arashi most of the time - more mana symbols, actually flat out destroys something, and doesn't have to tap, and can block fliers as a 9/9.
I understand the why you like Arbor Colossus and I am not really hip to the Hornet Queen idea too much either. Neither are re-usable. I do appreciate the points that the two of you bring up here.
Hornet Queen sets up Craterhoof. It's an upgrade from Arbor Colossus, but a bit on the expensive cmc side. When I was still playing Azusa the second best token producer was Deranged Hermit. Primordial Sage and Soul of the Harvest are too slow. By the time you can cast them you will have played most of the creatures in your hand. For their cost they provide inadequate returns. Better options are: Regal Force, Collective Unconcious, and that new green draw spell. Lotus Cobra cannot be simply thrown into a list. It's good but Lotus Cobra must have fetches and additional landfall synergies to support it. Genesis Wave is unnecessary. Build a board and get to Craterhoof. That is Azusa. How good you build Azusa determines how reliably and how quickly you can get there.
Current Card Count: 104
Here is my list:
1x Acidic Slime
1x Arashi, the Sky Asunder
1x Avenger of Zendikar
1x Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Dosan the Falling Leaf
1x Duplicant
1x Elvish Mystic
1x Eternal Witness
1x Fyndhorn Elves
1x Garruk's Packleader
1x Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1x Llanowar Elves
1x Lotus Cobra
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
1x Primordial Sage
1x Rampaging Baloths
1x Regal Force
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Silklash Spider
1x Soul of the Harvest
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Terastodon
1x Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1x Woodfall Primus
1x Beast Within
1x Chord of Calling
1x Crop Rotation
1x Krosan Grip
1x Momentous Fall
1x Worldly Tutor
Land (50)
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1x Buried Ruin
1x Deserted Temple
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Dust Bowl
1x Eye of Ugin
27x Forest
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Haunted Fengraf
1x High Market
1x Homeward Path
1x Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Mosswort Bridge
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Petrified Field
1x Strip Mine
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Vesuva
1x Winding Canyons
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Yavimaya Hollow
1x Asceticism
1x Exploration
1x Greater Good
1x Mana Reflection
1x Sylvan Library
Planeswalker (2)
1x Garruk, Primal Hunter
1x Karn Liberated
Sorcery (9)
1x All Is Dust
1x Creeping Renaissance
1x Genesis Wave
1x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Life from the Loam
1x Praetor's Counsel
1x Scapeshift
1x Sylvan Scrying
1x Tooth and Nail
Artifact (6)
1x Birthing Pod
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Expedition Map
1x Horn of Greed
1x Oblivion Stone
1x Sol Ring
Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.
Cards that I don't particularly like:
Archetype of Endurance - I've never really liked this card. Hexproof is good, but it doesn't protect against board wipes, and if you're playing more high-value ETB creatures than big, swingy fatties, they'll have done their damage before spot removal can kick in. Asceticism works much better because the regenerate clause is occasionally relevant and its CMC is more appropriate to its effect.
Colossus of Akros - Simply too much mana investment for the return. For this cost, you should have a threat doing much more damage (and not in terms of life), like the Eldrazi or Blightsteel Colossus.
Worldspine Wurm - About the same problem. The stats and abilities are obviously good, but for a CMC of eleven it should win the game outright.
Azusa probably ramps harder than just about any deck in the format, but mana efficiency on cards is still a thing even for a deck like this. In my experience, I can get to about 7-8 mana extremely quickly (turn three or four), but at that point I'm running low on cards in hand and really have to establish some CA engines. At that point, I'd really hate to be stuck with something like Worldspine Wurm in my hand. A Steel Hellkite or Terastodon, comparatively, could just run away with the game.
Vigor - Seems very french vanilla in EDH to me. No protection from removal (spot removal against Vigor can be a huge blowout against you) and your team can just be flown over anyway.
Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger - In my experience, mana doublers are only worth playing when you get value out of them immediately, and with Vclex's mana cost that's unlikely to happen. Quite often he just says "your Doom Blade mana doesn't untap." I don't think Azusa needs the help getting to extreme amounts of mana anyway so he could be better as something else.
Squall Line - The one thing this card has going for it is that it can be used as a win-con if your life is high. If you need more help against fliers, I would consider Predator, Flagship first (if you need repeatable removal) followed by Duplicant or Brittle Effigy if a one-shot is enough.
Abundance - However wrong it sounds, I feel like draw in Azusa should be more about quantity than quality - considering how badly you want to have 2-3 lands to drop every turn.
Lignify - I think other removal options, like Duplicant, would be stronger here.
Primeval Bounty - The most-used part of this card is going to be the lifegain, and I don't really think it's going to be worth enough. Adding extra 3/3s to the table is good, but I think there are better options.
Garruk, Caller of Beasts - with only 24 creatures in your deck, this guy just mathematically doesn't work. His +1 drawing just one creature is not going to be good enough, and cheating creatures into play has much less value in Azusa, especially when those creatures have to be green and you're running Eldrazi.
Beacon of Creation - This can create a lot of tokens, but I just don't find an army of 1/1s that impressive, even with a few overruns in the deck. Avenger, Baloths, or even Wolfbriar Elemental (just for the ability being on a creature) are far superior.
Boundless Realms - It might feel nice to have every single land in your deck in play, but functionally, it doesn't really matter.
Harmonize - Concentrate wouldn't be played in Blue, and Green isn't hurting enough for draw to play a functional reprint. I think you have enough good draw engines that you won't be hurting for cards, and if you are, I think there are better choices.
Overwhelming Stampede - You have Craterhoof Behemoth and Kamahl for this effect on creatures, so I don't think the sorcery is necessary.
Primal Command - Tutoring a creature is nice, but the other modes are underwhelming. The best one is the grave hate, but you still have much more efficient tutors in the deck even with that upside.
Cards I would at least consider:
Primordial Sage, Soul of the Harvest, and Garruk's Packleader - you might have to increase your creature count a bit to get full value out of these, but these are the first cards I would consider including. Soul of the Harvest is, IMO, the best card to ramp into the turn after Azusa comes down.
Duplicant - I said enough about it before, but exile removal on a creature body goes a long way for Mono-G.
Lotus Cobra - Landfall cards are exceptionally good in Azusa and this is the guy that actually makes it possible to be casting Eldrazi on turn four or five.
Expedition Map - If you need more tutors for Cradle, and you can never have enough tutors for cradle.
Courser of Kruphix - A less-good version of Oracle, but that still puts it pretty high on the list.
Cycle lands - Lands with Cycling and Life From the Loam is a great way to draw cards or to just burn through your deck to win with Creeping Renaissance.
Haunted Fengraf - No, seriously. Creature recursion on a land, even if it's random, can be pretty strong. It's an amazing source of bodies with Crucible. And it only takes the place of a forest.
Buried Ruin - This card and Crucible protect each other, and it's a great way to get back Horn of Greed or other key artifacts.
Draft my Peasant Cube.
Now this is the reason I came here. To get some opinions from experienced players. I had a look at your suggestions and they made quite alot of sense to me. I believe that I will be modifying the deck now. If you have the time, please take a look at the list again and see if you can find anything I can cut to get down to 100, please.
Also, this may not be true to Azusa, but I feel like Dryad Arbor is always a trap. Mass creature removal spells are so common in this format; the artifact lands got cut from my decks because losing lands to Austere Command just makes you not want to play. A 1/1 is almost irreverent in Commander, you would probably be better served running a Forest in its place.
I'd also suggest Burgeoning.
Honestly, the general issue I'm seeing here is that your early game could maybe use a bit of work, which mostly would involve checking out other Azusa decklists for what their early-game plans are.
Mostly tutoring for Gaea's Cradle and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. The tutors will help with that. I might be able to cut one.
As for the Dryad Arbor, I'm had previous success with it in other decks and using Green Sun's Zenith to get it out turn one for even more ramp.
I can see that with the fetches, but I don't already own them, so it would take some time to be able to get the extra money up. Thank you for that idea, though. Also, Burgeoning was originally in the list, but somehow got cut. I believe I might add it back in.
We tend to be a fairly laid back group, but there are two guys that don't take the time to actually get all the cards for their decks and just proxy half a deck at a time. That has increased the overall power level of the group. So, if I had to qualify it, I would say mild-competitive.
I have considered it, but I really want to play Azusa. Also, you recommend more land. About what amount do you recommend for this deck? I tend to agree with the dropping of Genesis and Soul of New Phyrexia. They tend to be some of the least integral pieces of the deck.
Ah, I solitaire'd the deck a few times on cockatrice and I see why you talk about more lands. I will have to see what I can cut to make room for a few more.
I can't tell if this is serious or sarcastic......:)
Mana doublers that don't do much, similarly, are something of trap cards in EDH. They give you huge negative tempo swings and are functionally card disadvantage.
When you think about mana dorks with Azusa, think about a hand that's keepable if Burgeoning is a mana dork: land, land, burgeoning, X, X, X, X is not a keepable hand.
Land land, elvish mystic, x, x, x, x, is totally keepable.
I'd avoid enchantments except the absolute strongest ones (e.g. Sylvan Library, Survival of the Fittest, Asceticism maybe) and try to use dudes to do your work wherever you can. Green excels at finding creatures, undercosted fatties, and destroying non-creature permanents. You don't want to be in a situation where you have no blockers and a bunch of useless enchantments.
Glimpse of nature is a card I would absolutely play that you're not. Additionally, Natural Order, Survival of the Fittest, and Oath of druids. Possibly Wild Pair if you feel like it. Birthing Pod is critical imho also.
Also, there are some very good lands you're not running. Yavimaya Hollow is one I can think of.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Bane of Progress I feel is an auto-include in green EDH. Even if you have enchantments of your own you'll want to be able to birthing pod or survival him up to stop many kinds of bullsquat.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I tend to like the idea of mana dorks. Do you recommend I drop the ramp spells and throw in some to help ramp? Sounds like a definite possibility. I'm not sure how I feel about the cards like exploration and burgeoning. I think I can do without Burgeoning and put a mana dork in it's place. I like Exploration, so I don't think I can bring myself to remove it. Also, the mana doublers, you really think they hinder a deck like this? I can see the point, they really don't do much if a hand of little land. Kinda makes sense. I will consider the removal. Also, I had cut Yavimaya Hollow from the list back a while ago for some reason and I'm not sure why. Will have to include it again.
Not sure how I feel about Arbor Colossus. I like it, it can handle flyers, and it destroys a flier with Monstrosity. I'm not sure, I might have to include it. I can definitely see including Bane of Progress. Will have to add it to the list. Not sure about Birthing Pod in this list. Will have to think about that one.
Thank You Very Much
Think about most games, and whether you'd rather be resolving a high impact play at 6 mana or mana reflection. My experience has been that most games, wasting "power play" turns like when you hit 6 or 7 mana giving up an entire turn of tempo is not the best.
With creatures like Soul of the Harvest and Primordial Sage and Regal Force, you need to be putting creatures in play not do nothing enchantments. So much of your card draw is creature dependent, so you need to be drawing more than one every 4 turns, and you need to be tutoring for them.
The only enchantments I would run in Azusa are (and some of them are dudes also :)).
Courser of Kruphix (because card advantage)
Nylea, God of the Hunt (tramples and mana sink)
Survival of the Fittest (yay)
Greater Good (cards)
Sylvan Library (cards)
Maybe Utopia Sprawl (enables t2 Azusa almost all of the time)
From an Artifact perspective, I'd like to see:
Sol Ring
Crucible of Worlds
Maybe Lightning Greaves
Expedition Map (maybe; I'd probably chuck that one and use Crop Rotation, since sweet landfall trigger action)
Ramp package:
1
Elvish Mystic
Fyndhorn Elves
Llanowar Elves
Boreal Druid
Arbor Elf
Maaaybe Skyshroud Ranger or Sakura tribe scout.
Possibly Utopia Sprawl or Wild Growth, although dubious on those
2
Lotus Cobra
3
Maybe Wood Elves or Farhaven elf as a birthing pod guy only
Here's a rough list of cuts that I would make, and try to get more creatures and creature tutors in there.
Cuts I would make:
Worldly tutor
Momentous Fall
Summoner's Pact
Regrowth
City of Solitude (-> Dosan of the Fallen Leaf)
Recycle
Concordant Crossroads
Mind's Eye
Gauntlet of Power
Caged Sun
Nevinyrral's Disk (I'd probably keep either this OR O Stone; Ostone has the advantage of being hilarious with Seedborn Muse, which you may want to try)
Oblivion Stone (keep if you stick Seedborn Muse in there, maybe replace with bane of Progress)
Predator Flagship (-> Arbor Colossus - draws you cards! Maybe Arashi the Sky Asunder instead. Nice thing about Arby is he really juices up Nykthos)
Exploration
Burgeoning
Mana reflection (-> Vorinclex, if you keep a mana doubler)
Expedition Map
Also, don't think twice about Birthing pod. It is frigging insanely good in EDH. Birthing Pod and Survival of the Fittest are the two cornerstones to monogreen in my opinion, allowing you to fish out answers and turn your crappy late game draws into huge value. I like Natural Order too and Fauna Shaman is worth considering.
Anywho, that post got away from me, sorry
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Survival - well, it's a great outlet for mana dorks if you get your creature count high enough, and especially strong with some toolbox creatures like Reclamation Sage, Eternal Witness, Acidic Slime, etc.
Also, it'll take some experimentation to get the # of mana dorks right. In my experience with decks trying to accelerate commander by a turn, the number of ramp slots you want dedicated to that ranges from 5-8 depending on how serious you are. With Azusa, pretty effing serious that you want to start emptying your hand of lands by turn 2 - before people have Hinder / Spell Crumple mana up.
Azusa is one of the lists where Boseiju is pretty decent, because it doesn't kill your land drop so badly. I'd definitely try it out.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
That said, I feel like Azusa is better with a higher creature count. Green can do almost everything with creatures and while they are more vulnerable, if you've got a solid card
advantage / selection engine going they're going to be stronger.
I can see the argument to using fewer things that make you overextend, and just trying to ramp into dropping huge threats, but I generally think it's a less consistent strategy than curving out creatures and turning them into cards. Green doesn't draw a lot of cards without creature fuel. Just this man's opinion though, YMMV, etc.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Predator Flagship
Garruk's Packleader
Mind's Eye (I just feel like it's usually a questionable card)
Rampaging Baloths - it's good, but not amazing.
Praetor's counsel - as good as it is I think it's one of your better cuts; Creeping Renaissance will do the job and it flashes back.
-You have Courser of Kruphix listed twice
One or two forests
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I cut Predator Flagship in favor or Arashi, the Sky Asunder.
Mind's Eye has been removed seeing as I believe I already have enough card draw engine.
Garruk's Packleader, Rampaging Baloths, and Praetor's Counsel are cuts that I would really have to think about.
I fixed the Courser of Kruphix error.
I'm still kinda stuck on a minimum of 50 lands, but I will definitely have to test it when I get the list to a workable state.
Thank you as always for the suggestions. I really appreciate them and they are making me see some value of the cards I might not have considered.
The more I look at Arbor Colossus, the more I'm not sure. Will take some more thought.
When it comes to Dosan the Falling Leaf, my meta has two player that are heavy blue players. He will stay.
I originally had cut Lotus Cobra, but I have multiple people tell me it was a really good idea. I will have to definitely consider how much use I will get out of it.
Primordial Sage and Soul of the Harvest will most likely stay. I will need the card draw to be able to deal with some of the faster decks in my meta.
With Asceticism, I am still on the fence. My meta doesn't run alot of board wipes, so I'm not sure.
I don't have alot of ways to interact with my opponents, so I believe I will leave Karn Liberated.
I really want to run Genesis Wave, so I will learn the lesson the hard way if it's not worth keeping.
Thank you very much, I really appreciate your suggestions. The knowledge you have imparted to me is greatly appreciated.
If you have the time, would you mind sharing your list with me? Would definitely help with fine tuning mine.
Personally I think Arby is better than Arashi most of the time - more mana symbols, actually flat out destroys something, and doesn't have to tap, and can block fliers as a 9/9.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL