I have been having a lot of fun building, playing and tinkering with this deck, so I thought I would share.
As a commander, XDOE is great because he requires hardly any build-around, beyond some light creature recursion you probably want to be running anyway. What makes XDOE unique is his ability to recur black non-creatures, something no other black legend can do. This means that you don't need to go quite so creature-heavy to get recursion as you do with other mono-black generals. The goal here is to show off the strongest elements of all of what mono-black has to offer: draw, big mana, life drain, discard, destruction, recursions, combo... without going over the top trying to optimize for the win. There are probably 30 cards that rotate in and out of here around a core of 90 or so that never change, I will try to keep the list up to date and give some details on card choices.
Creatures Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed The boss. Usually doesn't make an appearance until mid-late game, unless I am starved for options or I see an easy general damage win via Hatred Reassembling Skeleton Took me a long time to add this guy, but always happy to see him. Dark Confidant New to the deck, but based on goldfish tests with him in an opening hand he should be a fantastic fit, plus the deck has several ways to sac him once it gets going so the life loss is not too devastating. Burnished Hart Recent sets have been good to this deck, this card can feel a bit durdely if drawn mid-game, but a 2 land bump on turn 3ish is just so strong. Fleshbag Marauder He is so easy to recur in this deck, and so devastating once you get to drop him once or twice a turn. So good it might be worth running his big brother Slum Reaper Vampire Nighthawk Often ignored in EDH in favor of bigger, splashier cards, VNH is an allstar, nets you some much needed life, blocks like a champ. Also Hatred. Graveborn Muse I have never once considered cutting this, the odd time you have another zombie out is gravy. With Grave Titan things get silly (Gravey rather than gravy, ehh, ehhhh?) Crypt Ghast the perfect card. Gray Merchant of Asphodel This has become one of my primary win-cons. This deck builds devotion easily and this guy is a boss at abusing it. Chainer, Dementia Master Have played this guy surprisingly little given that he has been in the deck since the beginning. Very versatile and backup recursion for XDOE Grave Titan Took me a while to come around to him, now would never leave home without him. If you can force him out early he can win games almost singlehandedly Kokusho, the Evening Star Good if you can get some recursion going, but definitely plays second fiddle to Gray Merchant of Asphodel in this deck. Now if you can start juggling them with
Artifacts Everflowing Chalice A late addition. How did I ever live without this card, it just scales so well into the late game. It makes me wonder whether Astral Cornucopia is worth testing. Wayfarer's Bauble Ramps a swamp. this deck likes swamp. Sol Ring and mana crypt - win Expedition Map Helps assemble urborg/coffers, which is our bread and butter for long game big mana. Skullclamp Took me a while to slot this in, but with bitterblossom, reassembling skeleton and grave titan there are usually enough tokens floating around to make it worth while, not to mention the self sacking XDOE. Now considered essential draw. Rings of the Brighthearth Busted with XDOE, who can use the extra activation to return himself to hand. Combo with monolith below but also great with the planeswalkers and two thirds of the other cards in here. Probably worth running fetches if this is in here, will need to work on that. Basalt Monolith borderline worth it with rings in there and I have a sweet Alpha copy, so it stays for now. Oblivion Stone Much needed way of dealing with artifacts and enchantments. I also love the rattlesnake play of playing this out and leaving mana up for activation. Completely messes with the game.
Enchatments Phyrexian Reclamation Absurdly undercosted and always relevant with our commander. Command zone? What's a command zone? My general lives in the yard! Animate Dead Solid recursion, lets you steal from their yard and even gives you devotion! Bitterblossom Took me a while to add this one in because of the price, it is amazing what you can do with a spare fairy every turn. It warped the deck a bit, allowing me to justify skullclamp, which then brought in reassembling skeleton and then ashnod's altar and then nim deathmantle and... Gate to Phyrexia It does it's job well enough and is a weird old black card lots of people haven't heard of that gives a boost to devotion. Oubliette see above Necropotence Draw all the cards. Since I am not looking for a quick combo win I usually only use this to refill my hand to 7, but once the deck gets going I am easily dropping 3 cards per turn, so it does some great work. devotion! Phyrexian Arena draw and devotion
I change this decklist a fair bit, probably on average of 2-3 cards per week rotated in and out, because there are way more than 99 cards that deserve a spot in this deck. I won't bother tracking these minor changes unless anyone expresses interest in seeing them. Instead, here are a couple of dozen of the other cards that have spend significant time in the list:
Promise of Power Next up in line for a spot because of its versatility Erebos, God of the Dead I feel guilty not playing this, he is literally the god of the dead! Good all arounder, but not something you would tutor for when you have access to necropotence. Bloodgift Demon The closest to coming back in. Strong effect and a big evasive body. Hellfire I love this card and I love the bad old art, probably not as strong as decree of pain, but I value Legends points Ritual of the Machine Probably not good enough because of restriction, but just love stealing other generals, so it sees some time in the deck. Slaughter Pact I am a tap-out player at heart, even though I like playing instant-speed answers. This lets me do both, saves a ton of mana over a few turns if I would have been keeping it up "just in case" for removal, and has saved my butt more than a few times. Hero's Downfall should probably be in there too. We'll see how much of an impact the new planeswalkers-as-commanders have, this may have to go back in. Mindslicer Possibly my favorite black card not currently in the deck. Just a little bit too nasty for my opponents and needs to be used judiciously when the rest of the deck's power level is dialed down a bit. No Mercy A perfect card for multiplayer, gets people to leave you alone early so you can build your board and hand. Cut it recently after a massive general damage fail, but really should go back in. Also extra devotion is very good with this deck. Mikaeus, the Unhallowed Definitely miss this guy, but I was never going to play the two card combo so he became a bit easier to cut as I went more creature light. If he gave XDOE undying he would be auto-include. He could be better than Geth, but I guess Geth doesn't need any additional support to take over. Sheoldred, Whispering One The last of the fat to go from the deck, this pretty lady was a poor stand-in for Griselbrand when I wasn't playing him and never made it back in after one of his appearances. Pretty high impact if it sticks, and if it doesn't we recur it and try again, has won me plenty of games. Geth, Lord of the Vault A stand alone wincon, which this deck could use. Cut in favor of overall synergy, but one of the first things that will go back in if I ever have trouble closing out the long game. Wurmcoil Engine Realistically probably should be in there since he does it all, beats, blocks, gains life, is himself and leaves behind sac fodder and is part of a combo wincon. Now to find a spot without raising the average cmc too much. Beseech the Queen Solid, would happily play if the deck were a little more combo oriented. As is am relying more on draw for a flow of threats and answers. Dimir House Guard Was great for tutoring up Damnation or Snuff out, but since toxic deluge is usually my go-to sweeper, this tutor becomes a bit less appealing Lifegain
I cut a few dedicated lifegain slots because I often found I was ending up with heaps of life, which is not my goal, just want to be able to offset some of the pay life costs. Plus playing fast and loose with your life total is part of mono-black and I find knocking your own life total down by 10 or more points early game can help take some attention off you. Sangromancer Batterskull Umezawa's Jitte
The equipments are great since XDOE can get through every time. In practice though, my group got so afraid of Hatred that XDOE became kill-on-sight and the equipment became a bit less good Solemn Simulacrum Was hard to cut my original set foil, but he can go in everything so he is out in favor of "cool old black cards" I can't play anywhere else. Caged Sun Next card to go back in if I am going to focus more on the big-mana black style. As-is Nirkana Revenant is in this slot because it has the added versatility of also being a win-con. Jet Medallion Boarderline cut, one of the first to go back in if I ever need another 2 cmc rock. Only really great if you are casting multiple spells per turn, but you usually are with this deck. Charcoal Diamond There are days I prefer this over Jet medallion. There are enough artifacts and black spells with no colourless in their casting cost that sometimes you just want a plain old 2cmc rock.
I would love some feedback, either on how to make the deck better, blacker or more fun. If there is interest in hearing about the strategies, combos and lines of play I use in here, I am happy to add more detail. One more note, our group isn't too hung up on the banlist, so Recurring Nightmare or occasionally Griselbrand might make appearances in the list, don't be alarmed.
Your deck looks pretty on point. I am jealous of your ban list loosening. Your grislebrand wants an entomb and goryo's vengeance
My only real suggestion I think would be really good is Phyrexian Altar for ramp and loops with Living Death.
Some other random thoughts.
I like your Dark Ritual and Muck. Cabal Ritual could pair with it nicely. Dark Confidant is a nice early Card advantage drop. Imp's Mischief, duress and Thoughtsieze have been good to me in mono black. For your deck, mischief to dodge counterspells seem thh best of those 3.
Your better suited to play out of your GY then others, I loved mindslicer in XhD too. Continual discard might be a useful tool to test. Phrased a different way: If lilianna proves good, maybe try out the other three drop enchantments that make everyone discard.
Edit: and Crucible of worlds is pretty good with some of the lands in most XhD lists and protects Coffers/swamps.
Your deck looks pretty on point. I am jealous of your ban list loosening. Your grislebrand wants an entomb and goryo's vengeance
My only real suggestion I think would be really good is Phyrexian Altar for ramp and loops with Living Death.
Some other random thoughts.
I like your Dark Ritual and Muck. Cabal Ritual could pair with it nicely. Dark Confidant is a nice early Card advantage drop. Imp's Mischief, duress and Thoughtsieze have been good to me in mono black. For your deck, mischief to dodge counterspells seem thh best of those 3.
Your better suited to play out of your GY then others, I loved mindslicer in XhD too. Continual discard might be a useful tool to test. Phrased a different way: If lilianna proves good, maybe try out the other three drop enchantments that make everyone discard.
Edit: and Crucible of worlds is pretty good with some of the lands in most XhD lists and protects Coffers/swamps.
Thanks for the suggestions, it is amazing how having Griselbrand in the list warps my deck-building towards ways of cheating him out early. I have been trying my best to resist these urges, since there are not many other giant boss targets and spamming him out every game will surely end him up back in time-out, hard to resist a little tuning though.
Entomb is a very recent cut that should probably come back in with Griselbrand in the list now. Cabal Ritual was not on my radar, thanks for the tip, I will pick up a copy and try it out. What I love about Bubbling Muck and why I play it over Dark Ritual is how well it scales into the late game. I will often cast it early for a boost of 1 or 2 mana and then XDOE it back late game for a boost of 6 or 8 the next turn. I like that Cabal Ritual also scales, how reliably to you think I can hit threshold without any loot/self-mill effects?
Imp's Mischief is something I have been meaning to try out for a long time, I worry it would be a bit narrow, but countering a counter in mono-black sounds amazing.
I agree, a crucible of worlds/ fetchland package could easily go in here at some point, only haven't because I am running it in another deck, also need a few more black fetches. Anything else that would support this? Buried Ruin and Petrified Field and Dust Bowl come to mind. Dark Confidant I would like to try, but haven't due to price and concerns that my curve is too high. It has been getting lower and lower as I tune the deck, do you think I could support it in its current form considering I am not going for fast combo wins?
I run a mono-black Erebos with a XDOE in the main and our lists are stikingly similar. I'm running a Crucible / Fetchland package - and I've found that recurring fetches is even better once I get Rings of Brighthearth out. I'm also running a little bit more search (and less maindeck card draw) than you (Grim Tutor and Demonic Consultation) with an emergency consultation package of Imp's Mischief / Snuff Out / Tainted Strike.
I've run Hatred before and while I love the card, I feel like Tainted Strike can often do the same thing in my build (I've included Lashwrithe, Cranial Plating and Dragon Throne of Tarkhir in my build to help the critters be bigger in the first place). Tainted Strike has the added benefit of putting -1/-1's on anything that survives combat with it.
I try and focus on a Nykthos-central build weighted strongly towards good enchantments and artifacts for that purpose (coffers package and magus of the coffers included. I augment the idea of big mana black with a few other artifacts - Candelabra of Tawnos (which is a superstar in my build) and Onyx Talisman (Possibly even better for making massive mana). I run a few life enablers like the lands (Diamond Valley and Miren, The Moaning Well) as well as a Disciple of Bolas that can be bonkers with Chainer in play. While I am talking about colorless lands, the only other one I run that you don't is Winding Canyons. I've gotten great political results from it by flashing in a Kokusho, Grey Merchant, Wurmcoil or Chainer when being attacked - or just using it EOT right before my turn.
I'm curious to know how your meta deals with you in terms of Graveyard hate. Mine has light to moderate amounts - I presume yours might also.
Do you have any other decks you play - or if this is the only one, have you noticed opponents adapting their decks to handle the deck they'll know you'll play ? Do you anticipate that happening ?
Cabal Ritual is ok even without threshhold. ANd very good with Yawg Win... I think Dark Ritual is just better though and would always run that first. Cabal is better with more 'all players discard' effects, and it still scales with stinkweed that you do have.
Imp's Mischief also protects you from disenchant and some forms of gy hate. I use the discard instead/in addition if I need to protect me from counterspells if I want to be doing comboey things.
Re Dark Confidant- Your list looks maybe al ittle high cmc for some folks? I really really like the suicide black thing, and in on the 'last life is the only one that matters' train. That might not be the correct way to play, but I would put bob in this deck if I were playing it. I might think about dropping some of the slower high cmc cards like Dawn of the Dead, Geth and possibly Sorrin (I would Run bob without cutting these too ). You have some decent lifegain already, but just pointing out Sangromancer and Blood Artist as decent engines. I am going to try Plunge into Darkness in the B deck I am making but cannot comment on how good it is yet.
Re Crucicble You don't want to dilute your swamp count to much. Buried Ruin, Fetches and Strands of Night are my favorite additions to your list for using Crucible. Necromancy is a pretty slick reanimate spell for shenanigans too.
Also, it seems like yourself, the longer I played mono B Control the more I moved away from big mana strategies. The smaller poxxier plays seemed just as effective, came online earlier, and were harder to disrupt.
I run a mono-black Erebos with a XDOE in the main and our lists are stikingly similar. I'm running a Crucible / Fetchland package - and I've found that recurring fetches is even better once I get Rings of Brighthearth out. I'm also running a little bit more search (and less maindeck card draw) than you (Grim Tutor and Demonic Consultation) with an emergency consultation package of Imp's Mischief / Snuff Out / Tainted Strike.
I've run Hatred before and while I love the card, I feel like Tainted Strike can often do the same thing in my build (I've included Lashwrithe, Cranial Plating and Dragon Throne of Tarkhir in my build to help the critters be bigger in the first place). Tainted Strike has the added benefit of putting -1/-1's on anything that survives combat with it.
I try and focus on a Nykthos-central build weighted strongly towards good enchantments and artifacts for that purpose (coffers package and magus of the coffers included. I augment the idea of big mana black with a few other artifacts - Candelabra of Tawnos (which is a superstar in my build) and Onyx Talisman (Possibly even better for making massive mana). I run a few life enablers like the lands (Diamond Valley and Miren, The Moaning Well) as well as a Disciple of Bolas that can be bonkers with Chainer in play. While I am talking about colorless lands, the only other one I run that you don't is Winding Canyons. I've gotten great political results from it by flashing in a Kokusho, Grey Merchant, Wurmcoil or Chainer when being attacked - or just using it EOT right before my turn.
I'm curious to know how your meta deals with you in terms of Graveyard hate. Mine has light to moderate amounts - I presume yours might also.
Do you have any other decks you play - or if this is the only one, have you noticed opponents adapting their decks to handle the deck they'll know you'll play ?
Like I said above, I am not a fan of a lot of big mana MBC plays ( Even though I like everything you suggested about it). I like the land shenanigans, and I like Onyx Talisman alot and candelabra seems pretty good too. Things that come online early I guess; I am really wary of time walking myself with 5-6 cmc mana doublers that are just going to die.
I am also not a big fan of really swinging with XhD, I almost never did that even when I gave Hatred a slot; it just felt risky and like I was time walking myself. As odd as it might sound I like XhD in my GY, not in play, and not in my Command zone.
My group packs a decent chunk of GY hate, and XhD still worked fine. I just had to play more of a grindy strategy than a big play strategy. It is pretty fun looking at these kinds of MBC lists, since each one is geared towards that players meta. They all seem to have different 'silver bullet' cards for their unique opponents.
EDIT: BurntGerbil, is songs of the damned something that might be good in your list?
I run a mono-black Erebos with a XDOE in the main and our lists are stikingly similar. I'm running a Crucible / Fetchland package - and I've found that recurring fetches is even better once I get Rings of Brighthearth out. I'm also running a little bit more search (and less maindeck card draw) than you (Grim Tutor and Demonic Consultation) with an emergency consultation package of Imp's Mischief / Snuff Out / Tainted Strike.
Right! I always forget about rings and fetches because I have yet to run them together in a deck. I will give it a try once I get a hold of some more black fetches, hoping for a reprint of the Zendikar ones soon. I am definitely running a bit lean on tutors, mostly since I am indecisive and don't always love making up my mind what to tutor. As you pointed out I have tried to make up for this with pretty heavy draw, and it seems to work well enough. You do have my attention with Demonic Consultation! That is a big boy card if I have ever seen one, how often have you decked yourself with it? I love your idea of rolling with a sunforger style utility package along with it and I think the massive gamble of the card would probably be fun to play against. I'll give it a crack.
I've run Hatred before and while I love the card, I feel like Tainted Strike can often do the same thing in my build (I've included Lashwrithe, Cranial Plating and Dragon Throne of Tarkhir in my build to help the critters be bigger in the first place). Tainted Strike has the added benefit of putting -1/-1's on anything that survives combat with it.
I try and focus on a Nykthos-central build weighted strongly towards good enchantments and artifacts for that purpose (coffers package and magus of the coffers included. I augment the idea of big mana black with a few other artifacts - Candelabra of Tawnos (which is a superstar in my build) and Onyx Talisman (Possibly even better for making massive mana). I run a few life enablers like the lands (Diamond Valley and Miren, The Moaning Well) as well as a Disciple of Bolas that can be bonkers with Chainer in play. While I am talking about colorless lands, the only other one I run that you don't is Winding Canyons. I've gotten great political results from it by flashing in a Kokusho, Grey Merchant, Wurmcoil or Chainer when being attacked - or just using it EOT right before my turn.
I like tainted strike and it was definitely on my radar as a temporary substitute for hatred. As is with little pump or equipment for my general it is not worth it, but definitely the right tool for the job if you are going in that direction. Nykthos has definitely been good for me too and I really like the direction it and Grey merchant push my deckbuilding towards cool enchantments I might not reach for otherwise. I still find I get more mileage off of cabal coffers, but now that I think of it I can't remember drawing nykthos in a while, will have to remember to tutor it up. I am purposely trying my best to stay artifact light, which is hard at times, so I can cram in as much blackness as possible.
I'm curious to know how your meta deals with you in terms of Graveyard hate. Mine has light to moderate amounts - I presume yours might also.
Do you have any other decks you play - or if this is the only one, have you noticed opponents adapting their decks to handle the deck they'll know you'll play ? Do you anticipate that happening ?
I definitely don't run into as much graveyard hate as I deserve, and I get away with a lot of things I shouldn't in that respect. Part of that is that I do try and mix up which decks I play a fair bit, usually have 3 - 5 built that cover the whole colour pie, vary in style and have as little overlap as possible. Most of the others get dismantled after a few months for something new, this one has been around the longest and isn't going anywhere. There was a time when I was playing a somewhat tuned Karador, Ghost Chieftain that they rebelled and jammed as much grave hate as possible, but that has all worn off. I could see it coming back to a certain degree since my new mono-red deck right now is a silly Feldon of the Third Path giant dragon unearthing deck so they will be seeing shameless graveyard abuse at least half the time. I would be interested in hearing how you have dealt with the grave hate. I would have thought that not deliberately playing into your yard would be a good start, are there other measures to consider?
Re Dark Confidant- Your list looks maybe al ittle high cmc for some folks? I really really like the suicide black thing, and in on the 'last life is the only one that matters' train. That might not be the correct way to play, but I would put bob in this deck if I were playing it. I might think about dropping some of the slower high cmc cards like Dawn of the Dead, Geth and possibly Sorrin (I would Run bob without cutting these too ). You have some decent lifegain already, but just pointing out Sangromancer and Blood Artist as decent engines. I am going to try Plunge into Darkness in the B deck I am making but cannot comment on how good it is yet.
I think you have convinced me to at least give him a try. To be honest I didn't realize how lean my curve was compared to where it started with 15ish big bomb creatures and a bunch of mana doublers. It would be easy to cut Bloodgift Demon, Geth, lord of the vault, Dawn of the Dead maybe Living Death (or is that black blasphemy?) to get it a bit lower. Could slot in Crucible of Worlds, Demonic Consultation, Dark Confidant and Imp's Mischief. My biggest problem with that change would be the hit to devotion, which has been a solid win-con for me. And the fact that it will take a few weeks to scrape together the money for those and the fetches...
I have not found myself hurting for life lately, but I could see how confidant would change that. I had good success with batterskull for that, but sangromnacer is good too and black.
Someone already mentioned it, and while I think there is room for both spells if you want, Necromancy is superior to Animate Dead, and not hard to come by. With Xiahou as your general, it pulls ahead even further— I get a lot more out of casting it at instant speed in Xiahou than I do in the other decks I run it in.
I can't see cutting Living Death in Xiahou; with his ability to recur it (and the potential combo if you decide to run Phyrexian Altar), it's even better than normal. And it's still a 5 CMC Wrath that gets through indestructible and a host of other annoying protective effects.
Dawn of the Dead just seems over–costed for what it does, and periodic effects like that are less of a source of value when your general can just grab back (nearly) whatever effect you want anyhow.
I don't think mono–black needs as many rocks as you're running, but if you like them, I'd suggest something like Fellwar Stone over the Charcoal Diamond. You shouldn't need the color–fixing, so not having the CiPT restriction makes it a lot better. With Urborg in play, it'll even be guaranteed to produce B for you, anyhow.
Someone already mentioned it, and while I think there is room for both spells if you want, Necromancy is superior to Animate Dead, and not hard to come by. With Xiahou as your general, it pulls ahead even further— I get a lot more out of casting it at instant speed in Xiahou than I do in the other decks I run it in.
I can't see cutting Living Death in Xiahou; with his ability to recur it (and the potential combo if you decide to run Phyrexian Altar), it's even better than normal. And it's still a 5 CMC Wrath that gets through indestructible and a host of other annoying protective effects.
Dawn of the Dead just seems over–costed for what it does, and periodic effects like that are less of a source of value when your general can just grab back (nearly) whatever effect you want anyhow.
I don't think mono–black needs as many rocks as you're running, but if you like them, I'd suggest something like Fellwar Stone over the Charcoal Diamond. You shouldn't need the color–fixing, so not having the CiPT restriction makes it a lot better. With Urborg in play, it'll even be guaranteed to produce B for you, anyhow.
I like Necromancy and used to run it in here when it was more about big fatties. I have never thought of it as a strict upgrade over Animate Dead though, 2 mana is just so cheap for that effect. What is it you are doing with XDOE to abuse the instant speed of Necromancy, not sure I see it?
Dawn of the dead is definitely in there as a sub-optimal flavor choice. What I enjoy about it is that you don't have to pay for each use like with corpse dance. That lets you reanimate XDOE, sac him for a non-creature and still have mana up to cast what you brought back. Looking at it now, for that effect I almost might as well run Sheoldred, Whispering One and get some bonus edicts, or else a cheap one-shot liek Necromancy you mentioned above.
Rocks are at an all-time high in this deck, and I still have yet to run into a situation where I am stuck with too many. Part of that is the massive draw power of the deck that lets you play some stuff that is only really optimal early game. If you have a full hand through all of the late game then who cares if there are a couple of rocks sitting in it. Charcoal Diamond and Jet Medallion are constantly on the chopping block in that department, fellwar stone I usually don't like, but I see your point with Urborg, which I do tutor for frequently. The other think that might make a good substitute for one of the crappier rocks is swamp. This deck runs well on 36 or 37 lands, still haven't decided which is best yet.
I like Necromancy and used to run it in here when it was more about big fatties. I have never thought of it as a strict upgrade over Animate Dead though, 2 mana is just so cheap for that effect. What is it you are doing with XDOE to abuse the instant speed of Necromancy, not sure I see it?
I could have been more clear there. I don't think that Xiahou lets you abuseNecromancy so much as he removes part of the opportunity cost of using it at instant speed. Normally if you use it at instant speed you're not just only going to have the creature for one turn, you've also blown a card that could be offering a continual effect. While I think I've only used Xiahou to retrieve Necromancy twice out of all the times I've played this deck, both times were after I had used it at instant speed to bail myself out of one jam or another.
Also, I'm not sure why I mentioned Fellwar Stone when the mana rock I normally run in that slot in mono–black (when I run one at all) is Mind Stone. I don't think you need the colored mana at all, and the card draw is nice. (And more so if you run ways to retrieve it from the yard.)
Also, I'm not sure why I mentioned Fellwar Stone when the mana rock I normally run in that slot in mono–black (when I run one at all) is Mind Stone. I don't think you need the colored mana at all, and the card draw is nice. (And more so if you run ways to retrieve it from the yard.)
Mind stone I don't mind, thought I tend to reach for it more often in red or white decks that worry about running out of gas, which is less of a concern here. Do you run Everflowing Chalice? That is the 2cmc rock that has been really impressing me lately.
What does anyone think about Pawn of Ulamog in this deck? I imagine it would end up almost acting like a mana rock, but have never tried it.
Mind stone I don't mind, thought I tend to reach for it more often in red or white decks that worry about running out of gas, which is less of a concern here. Do you run Everflowing Chalice? That is the 2cmc rock that has been really impressing me lately.
What does anyone think about Pawn of Ulamog in this deck? I imagine it would end up almost acting like a mana rock, but have never tried it.
I've thought about Everflowing Chalice because it seems like it would be pretty good at soaking up the excess mana the deck sometimes has in the mid–game, but I've been playing in settings where people are really willing to destroy lands and mana rocks such that I'm typically holding back my Cabal Coffers until I'm really ready to get a lot out of it in the same turn. I also dropped Exsanguinate from my build, so large amounts of colorless mana have become less useful. I'm still considering it, though, and I'm glad to hear it's working out for someone.
I really like Pawn of Ulamog in the deck, and unlike some other token generators, players seem to be willing to let him stick around for a bit accruing value.
I think you have convinced me to at least give him a try. To be honest I didn't realize how lean my curve was compared to where it started with 15ish big bomb creatures and a bunch of mana doublers. It would be easy to cut Bloodgift Demon, Geth, lord of the vault, Dawn of the Dead maybe Living Death (or is that black blasphemy?) to get it a bit lower. Could slot in Crucible of Worlds, Demonic Consultation, Dark Confidant and Imp's Mischief. My biggest problem with that change would be the hit to devotion, which has been a solid win-con for me. And the fact that it will take a few weeks to scrape together the money for those and the fetches...
I have not found myself hurting for life lately, but I could see how confidant would change that. I had good success with batterskull for that, but sangromnacer is good too and black.
Maybe see if your playgroup will let you proxy him for a few games before you spend the money? Since each meta is different there really is no ideal mbc list. Each one kinda has to tailor the control cards to where the meta is at. I like all those changes though.
The Living Death Phyrexian altar combo is sac xhd to get back living death, sac 5 creatures /tokens for 5 black mana. Cast LD, and do it over and over. THis gets infinite EtB triggers and with one more creature infinite mana. Both the pieces are good on their own too.
I value 2 drop rocks a lot too. And please dont cut the Jet Medalion, that thing gets crazy when you start casting more than 0 black spells a turn.
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Current edh decks
Gitrog Lands
Merieke Ri Berit Flicker
Ramos, Dragon Engine Storm
Alright here is an update to the list. These were made as gradual changes over a couple of weeks, mostly to lower curve for Dark Confidant which I was finally able to acquire, Griselbrand kinda kills that, but I would pay 8 life to cast him any day. Also, turns out I only had 99 in the original list I posted, no idea what was left out initially, but this brings us to 100. Current average cmc including land is 1.8, which I am pretty comfortable with for Bob lifeloss. Any other input on higher cmc things I should cut to bring that down? I still intend on trying out Phyrexian Altar and Demonic Consultations, but haven't got my hands on copies yet. I decided cramming in a bunch of off-colour fetches and crucible went against the blackness of the deck, so I am going to skip that for now.
A few things happened here, most important was bringing in phyrexian altar, which as you all suggested is a complete house with living death and my general. This found me missing some of the creatures I had cut in previous versions of the list and so a few of those went back in. After a while I ended up taking out the ashnod's altar / nim deathmantle combo because it is a bit artifact heavy for this deck and deathmantle wasn't quite the XDOE recurrion engine I had been hoping for. On paper repeatedly paying 4 for an extra activations of my general is great, but having to keep 4 open and him on the board from turn to turn was inconvenient, especially because of his reputation as a hater (Hatred). Recurring Nightmare bounces in and out of the deck for Reanimate as my play group tolerates it. Looking at those cuts now, I am really wishing I had a spot for Oubliette in there, just because it is so so black. Any cuts you guys see?
Those changes look pretty good. What are some of your favorite entomb targets? I run that card in my mimeo deck, but haven't really considered it for ol' XDOE.
Those changes look pretty good. What are some of your favorite entomb targets? I run that card in my mimeo deck, but haven't really considered it for ol' XDOE.
I have been on the fence about entomb in the past, mostly because it is nowhere near as broken in this list as it was in my old Karador, Ghost Chieftain deck, or as I imagine it is in your mimeo. It is usually not a blowout card, more a combination of many small synergies and the fact that is is dirt cheap and instant that I think win it the spot. It can play ol' school reanimator by getting grielbrand when you have animate dead in hand (Not my plan A, B or C, but makes you feel like a king to pull it off once or twice a year). It can get you reassembling skeleton at minimal extra cost if you have clamp out or are staring down a smoke stack. Recurring with XDOE is not cheap, but when you need an answer or a missing combo piece, it is always possible and entomb can get it in the yard for you on the cheap. It competes with diabolic tutor, and I am pretty sure it wins the slot because of instant speed. Your thoughts?
Looking at those cuts now, I am really wishing I had a spot for Oubliette in there, just because it is so so black. Any cuts you guys see?
Ashes to Ashes. They fulfill very similar functions, but Oubliette is a little less conditional (also, it works really well with sac outlets like Infernal Tribute).
How are you finding Phyrexian Arena and its ilk? I actually removed them from my list as I found them to be way too slow for my tastes.
Cut Ashes to Ashes? I didn't know that was allowed. Really?
I love the incremental draw cards, even if they are not optimal. I like how it can get games rolling without appearing overly threatening. Digging 20 off Necrologia to find my missing combo piece T4 is probably stronger, but I just don't do it. I am much more of a refill my hand, keep a full grip, kind of a guy. That being said, I do almost always tutor up Necropotence if given the chance early and use that to keep my hand at 7 (see what I mean? I am just not greedy enough to be a real black master) and the incremental draw on top of that is a bit underwhelming. What are you running as alternatives?
I would like to fit in Grim Haruspex, but I feel like I just might be a bit creature light to go all-in on that effect. What I like about Harvester of souls, which kind of follows my logic above, is that it is a very strong early drop to get things rolling without appearing overly threatening. The deathtouch usually deflects a lot of attention from me if I can drop him early, so he often serves as pseudo-lifegain and, as the saying goes, "in EDH, things gonna die". Probably not as good at deflecting attention as forcefield, but I don't have one of those
Yeah, entomb for me is a combo starter/completer. With XDOE it's a powerful card. Have you considered Buried Alive? Another powerful card with the mimeo that I could see working with XDOE/Living Death as well.
Yeah, entomb for me is a combo starter/completer. With XDOE it's a powerful card. Have you considered Buried Alive? Another powerful card with the mimeo that I could see working with XDOE/Living Death as well.
Absolutely considered it, especially since I am now relying on Living Death as a primary win-con. It is more a matter of not wanting to go all-in on any one strategy. One thing I really like about this deck is it can play out in a number of different ways. Entomb is the most brutally efficient way of getting that effect, so it is included. Burried Alive is sweet, but is it worth cutting Pawn of Ulamog for? That is serving a similar effect of easily enabling living death loops while providing additional value if I am going off in a different direction.
[quote from="deegeebee »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/580139-xiahou-dun-the-one-eyed-black-showcase?comment=18"]
I should also point out that my deck makes extensive use of Ensnaring Bridge (alongside Forcefield! ), so I tend not to want to keep my hand topped up unless I'm about to combo out and win.
I think you nailed the difference between our decks here, and it probably boils down to meta. You protect yourself until you can combo off. I keep on drawing answers and minor threats to eat an opponent's answers until I have overwhelmed them with card advantage, and then often combo off. Interesting.
Right now I have actually got permission from my playgroup to try out Griselbrand in the 99
A Griselbrand flip off Dark Confidant is definitely a concern, but they are both so strong, I just have to risk it. The rest of the curve is low enough that on average I am only taking 2 damage per turn off bob, and I can more than live with that.
The list seems to trend towards being a Griselbrand list that happens to run Xiahou Dun as the general, sadly, but I suppose that isn't so much of an issue, per se.
I find basic-to-hand fetching to be remarkably underwhelming in mono-black... And Everflowing Chalice is pretty underwhelming in general...
I have explanations in my post for why I cut some of the higher CMC cards in your deck. You do seem to be focusing in more on the "Let's make tons of mana and battlecruise away" though.
Even with Vampire Nighthawk as a second option, I think Hatred opens yourself up too easily to being smacked back for lethal or eating a removal spell after you've paid half your life.
I would also definitely suggest Sadistic Sacrament as an all-around all-star card that deals with basically everything.
All in all, a fine list, even if a lot of it isn't in the direction I would go for Xiahou Dun.
The list seems to trend towards being a Griselbrand list that happens to run Xiahou Dun as the general, sadly, but I suppose that isn't so much of an issue, per se.
I find basic-to-hand fetching to be remarkably underwhelming in mono-black... And Everflowing Chalice is pretty underwhelming in general...
I have explanations in my post for why I cut some of the higher CMC cards in your deck. You do seem to be focusing in more on the "Let's make tons of mana and battlecruise away" though.
Even with Vampire Nighthawk as a second option, I think Hatred opens yourself up too easily to being smacked back for lethal or eating a removal spell after you've paid half your life.
I would also definitely suggest Sadistic Sacrament as an all-around all-star card that deals with basically everything.
All in all, a fine list, even if a lot of it isn't in the direction I would go for Xiahou Dun.
Not sure why everyone is so worried about Bob. It doesn't make any sense to talk about the average CMC of non-land cards in a deck in relation to his flips, you have to consider lands as well. On average this deck loses just under 2 life per turn to Dark Confidant, and I am very happy with that.
101: You are right, I still had Strip Mine listed even though I swapped out with something else for sinkhole and swamp a while back. Since I am not interested in playing off-colored fetches and crucible in this deck (I have other decks running of that engine), being able to recur sinkhole has been useful.
I have done enough testing that I am pretty sure this deck likes 37 lands as is. An boy does it ever love swamp, so many black mana symbols, especially in the early drops, and cabal coffers of course.
If your modus operandi is static control and low curve at any cost, mine is "cheap ramp + cheap draw = more action cards played". Since we don't play dedicated fast combo in my meta, this leads to smooth interactive games with lots of threats and answers to play throughout. Not giving you advice, just sharing my motivation for this build.
Everflowing Chalice is fantastic if you are at all interested in playing into the medium/long game. Not saying you should to run it, but it is a midrange-control allstar.
The way I see it, XDOE is like having eternal witness as your general in mono-black, unique and invaluable utility at your fingertips. As a purely utility general he can be built to suit your interests and your meta, combo-control, midrange-control, voltron-stax, stax-stax, you name it. This list is my attempt at midrange-control.
- Ashes to Ashes + Oubliette (BV know what he is talking about, better give it a try)
- Pawn of Ulamog + Dismember (Needed one more instant speed removal, might actually change this to Hero's Downfall)
Would love to find a spot to get Pawn of Ulamog back in, as well as thoughtseize, as I have found myself missing that functionality lately. Thoughts?
Not sure why everyone is so worried about Bob. It doesn't make any sense to talk about the average CMC of non-land cards in a deck in relation to his flips, you have to consider lands as well. On average this deck loses just under 2 life per turn to Dark Confidant, and I am very happy with that.
Should be just over, even w/o Griselbrand, and accounting for lands, but no biggie.
The way I see it, XDOE is like having eternal witness as your general in mono-black, unique and invaluable utility at your fingertips. As a purely utility general he can be built to suit your interests and your meta, combo-control, midrange-control, voltron-stax, stax-stax, you name it. This list is my attempt at midrange-control.
There's a lot of other possibilities, too. Just saying... Though if you're focusing on midrange, there seems to be a lot of high drops and less of the midrange cards than I might expect. Not implying that there's a lack of focus, necessarily, but it's still something to think about, even in a more casual or higher curve deck.
As a commander, XDOE is great because he requires hardly any build-around, beyond some light creature recursion you probably want to be running anyway. What makes XDOE unique is his ability to recur black non-creatures, something no other black legend can do. This means that you don't need to go quite so creature-heavy to get recursion as you do with other mono-black generals. The goal here is to show off the strongest elements of all of what mono-black has to offer: draw, big mana, life drain, discard, destruction, recursions, combo... without going over the top trying to optimize for the win. There are probably 30 cards that rotate in and out of here around a core of 90 or so that never change, I will try to keep the list up to date and give some details on card choices.
4 Xiahou Dun, the One-EyedFoil
Creatures
2 Reassembling Skeleton
2 Dark Confidant
3 Pilgrim's Eye
3 Fleshbag Marauder
3 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Dimir House Guard
4 Mindslicer
4 Graveborn Muse
4 Crypt Ghast
5 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
5 Chainer, Dementia Master
5 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
5 Puppeteer Clique
6 Grave Titan
6 Massacre Wurm
6 Kokusho, the Evening Star
Artifacts
0 Mana Crypt
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Sol Ring
1 Expedition Map
1 Skullclamp
2 Jet Medallion
3 Rings of Brighthearth
3 Oblivion Stone
3 Phyrexian Altar
1 Phyrexian Reclamation
2 Animate Dead
2 Bitterblossom
2 Gate to Phyrexia
3 Oubliette
3 Recurring Nightmare
3 Necropotence
3 Phyrexian Arena
Sorceries
1 Innocent Blood
1 Bubbling Muck
2 Sinkhole
2 Diabolic Intent
2 Sign in Blood
2 Night's Whisper
2 Demonic Tutor
3 Read the Bones
3 Yawgmoth's Will
3 Toxic Deluge
4 Damnation
4 Mutilate
5 Living Death
2 Profane Command
2 Exsanguinate
Instants
1 Dark Ritual
1 Darkness
1 Entomb
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Cabal Ritual
3 Dismember
3 Corpse Dance
3 Hero's Downfall
4 Snuff Out
4 Silence the Believers
5 Hatred
4 Liliana of the Dark Realms
6 Sorin Markov
7 Karn Liberated
Land
23 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 High Market
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Myriad Landscape
1 Vesuva
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Deserted Temple
1 Tower of the Magistrate
Creatures
Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed The boss. Usually doesn't make an appearance until mid-late game, unless I am starved for options or I see an easy general damage win via Hatred
Reassembling Skeleton Took me a long time to add this guy, but always happy to see him.
Dark Confidant New to the deck, but based on goldfish tests with him in an opening hand he should be a fantastic fit, plus the deck has several ways to sac him once it gets going so the life loss is not too devastating.
Burnished Hart Recent sets have been good to this deck, this card can feel a bit durdely if drawn mid-game, but a 2 land bump on turn 3ish is just so strong.
Fleshbag Marauder He is so easy to recur in this deck, and so devastating once you get to drop him once or twice a turn. So good it might be worth running his big brother Slum Reaper
Vampire Nighthawk Often ignored in EDH in favor of bigger, splashier cards, VNH is an allstar, nets you some much needed life, blocks like a champ. Also Hatred.
Graveborn Muse I have never once considered cutting this, the odd time you have another zombie out is gravy. With Grave Titan things get silly (Gravey rather than gravy, ehh, ehhhh?)
Crypt Ghast the perfect card.
Gray Merchant of Asphodel This has become one of my primary win-cons. This deck builds devotion easily and this guy is a boss at abusing it.
Chainer, Dementia Master Have played this guy surprisingly little given that he has been in the deck since the beginning. Very versatile and backup recursion for XDOE
Grave Titan Took me a while to come around to him, now would never leave home without him. If you can force him out early he can win games almost singlehandedly
Kokusho, the Evening Star Good if you can get some recursion going, but definitely plays second fiddle to Gray Merchant of Asphodel in this deck. Now if you can start juggling them with
Artifacts
Everflowing Chalice A late addition. How did I ever live without this card, it just scales so well into the late game. It makes me wonder whether Astral Cornucopia is worth testing.
Wayfarer's Bauble Ramps a swamp. this deck likes swamp.
Sol Ring and mana crypt - win
Expedition Map Helps assemble urborg/coffers, which is our bread and butter for long game big mana.
Skullclamp Took me a while to slot this in, but with bitterblossom, reassembling skeleton and grave titan there are usually enough tokens floating around to make it worth while, not to mention the self sacking XDOE. Now considered essential draw.
Rings of the Brighthearth Busted with XDOE, who can use the extra activation to return himself to hand. Combo with monolith below but also great with the planeswalkers and two thirds of the other cards in here. Probably worth running fetches if this is in here, will need to work on that.
Basalt Monolith borderline worth it with rings in there and I have a sweet Alpha copy, so it stays for now.
Oblivion Stone Much needed way of dealing with artifacts and enchantments. I also love the rattlesnake play of playing this out and leaving mana up for activation. Completely messes with the game.
Enchatments
Phyrexian Reclamation Absurdly undercosted and always relevant with our commander. Command zone? What's a command zone? My general lives in the yard!
Animate Dead Solid recursion, lets you steal from their yard and even gives you devotion!
Bitterblossom Took me a while to add this one in because of the price, it is amazing what you can do with a spare fairy every turn. It warped the deck a bit, allowing me to justify skullclamp, which then brought in reassembling skeleton and then ashnod's altar and then nim deathmantle and...
Gate to Phyrexia It does it's job well enough and is a weird old black card lots of people haven't heard of that gives a boost to devotion.
Oubliette see above
Necropotence Draw all the cards. Since I am not looking for a quick combo win I usually only use this to refill my hand to 7, but once the deck gets going I am easily dropping 3 cards per turn, so it does some great work. devotion!
Phyrexian Arena draw and devotion
I change this decklist a fair bit, probably on average of 2-3 cards per week rotated in and out, because there are way more than 99 cards that deserve a spot in this deck. I won't bother tracking these minor changes unless anyone expresses interest in seeing them. Instead, here are a couple of dozen of the other cards that have spend significant time in the list:
Promise of Power Next up in line for a spot because of its versatility
Erebos, God of the Dead I feel guilty not playing this, he is literally the god of the dead! Good all arounder, but not something you would tutor for when you have access to necropotence.
Bloodgift Demon The closest to coming back in. Strong effect and a big evasive body.
Hellfire I love this card and I love the bad old art, probably not as strong as decree of pain, but I value Legends points
Ritual of the Machine Probably not good enough because of restriction, but just love stealing other generals, so it sees some time in the deck.
Slaughter Pact I am a tap-out player at heart, even though I like playing instant-speed answers. This lets me do both, saves a ton of mana over a few turns if I would have been keeping it up "just in case" for removal, and has saved my butt more than a few times.
Hero's Downfall should probably be in there too. We'll see how much of an impact the new planeswalkers-as-commanders have, this may have to go back in.
Mindslicer Possibly my favorite black card not currently in the deck. Just a little bit too nasty for my opponents and needs to be used judiciously when the rest of the deck's power level is dialed down a bit.
No Mercy A perfect card for multiplayer, gets people to leave you alone early so you can build your board and hand. Cut it recently after a massive general damage fail, but really should go back in. Also extra devotion is very good with this deck.
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed Definitely miss this guy, but I was never going to play the two card combo so he became a bit easier to cut as I went more creature light. If he gave XDOE undying he would be auto-include. He could be better than Geth, but I guess Geth doesn't need any additional support to take over.
Sheoldred, Whispering One The last of the fat to go from the deck, this pretty lady was a poor stand-in for Griselbrand when I wasn't playing him and never made it back in after one of his appearances. Pretty high impact if it sticks, and if it doesn't we recur it and try again, has won me plenty of games.
Geth, Lord of the Vault A stand alone wincon, which this deck could use. Cut in favor of overall synergy, but one of the first things that will go back in if I ever have trouble closing out the long game.
Wurmcoil Engine Realistically probably should be in there since he does it all, beats, blocks, gains life, is himself and leaves behind sac fodder and is part of a combo wincon. Now to find a spot without raising the average cmc too much.
Beseech the Queen Solid, would happily play if the deck were a little more combo oriented. As is am relying more on draw for a flow of threats and answers.
Dimir House Guard Was great for tutoring up Damnation or Snuff out, but since toxic deluge is usually my go-to sweeper, this tutor becomes a bit less appealing
Lifegain
I cut a few dedicated lifegain slots because I often found I was ending up with heaps of life, which is not my goal, just want to be able to offset some of the pay life costs. Plus playing fast and loose with your life total is part of mono-black and I find knocking your own life total down by 10 or more points early game can help take some attention off you.
Sangromancer
Batterskull
Umezawa's Jitte
The equipments are great since XDOE can get through every time. In practice though, my group got so afraid of Hatred that XDOE became kill-on-sight and the equipment became a bit less good
Solemn Simulacrum Was hard to cut my original set foil, but he can go in everything so he is out in favor of "cool old black cards" I can't play anywhere else.
Caged Sun Next card to go back in if I am going to focus more on the big-mana black style. As-is Nirkana Revenant is in this slot because it has the added versatility of also being a win-con.
Jet Medallion Boarderline cut, one of the first to go back in if I ever need another 2 cmc rock. Only really great if you are casting multiple spells per turn, but you usually are with this deck.
Charcoal Diamond There are days I prefer this over Jet medallion. There are enough artifacts and black spells with no colourless in their casting cost that sometimes you just want a plain old 2cmc rock.
UGUPrime Speaker Seamonster RampUGU
WUGDerevi Does NothingWUG
RRRFeldon's Lovely LadiesRRR
My only real suggestion I think would be really good is Phyrexian Altar for ramp and loops with Living Death.
Some other random thoughts.
I like your Dark Ritual and Muck. Cabal Ritual could pair with it nicely.
Dark Confidant is a nice early Card advantage drop.
Imp's Mischief, duress and Thoughtsieze have been good to me in mono black. For your deck, mischief to dodge counterspells seem thh best of those 3.
Your better suited to play out of your GY then others, I loved mindslicer in XhD too. Continual discard might be a useful tool to test. Phrased a different way: If lilianna proves good, maybe try out the other three drop enchantments that make everyone discard.
Edit: and Crucible of worlds is pretty good with some of the lands in most XhD lists and protects Coffers/swamps.
Gitrog Lands
Merieke Ri Berit Flicker
Ramos, Dragon Engine Storm
Thanks for the suggestions, it is amazing how having Griselbrand in the list warps my deck-building towards ways of cheating him out early. I have been trying my best to resist these urges, since there are not many other giant boss targets and spamming him out every game will surely end him up back in time-out, hard to resist a little tuning though.
Entomb is a very recent cut that should probably come back in with Griselbrand in the list now. Cabal Ritual was not on my radar, thanks for the tip, I will pick up a copy and try it out. What I love about Bubbling Muck and why I play it over Dark Ritual is how well it scales into the late game. I will often cast it early for a boost of 1 or 2 mana and then XDOE it back late game for a boost of 6 or 8 the next turn. I like that Cabal Ritual also scales, how reliably to you think I can hit threshold without any loot/self-mill effects?
Imp's Mischief is something I have been meaning to try out for a long time, I worry it would be a bit narrow, but countering a counter in mono-black sounds amazing.
I agree, a crucible of worlds/ fetchland package could easily go in here at some point, only haven't because I am running it in another deck, also need a few more black fetches. Anything else that would support this? Buried Ruin and Petrified Field and Dust Bowl come to mind.
Dark Confidant I would like to try, but haven't due to price and concerns that my curve is too high. It has been getting lower and lower as I tune the deck, do you think I could support it in its current form considering I am not going for fast combo wins?
UGUPrime Speaker Seamonster RampUGU
WUGDerevi Does NothingWUG
RRRFeldon's Lovely LadiesRRR
I've run Hatred before and while I love the card, I feel like Tainted Strike can often do the same thing in my build (I've included Lashwrithe, Cranial Plating and Dragon Throne of Tarkhir in my build to help the critters be bigger in the first place). Tainted Strike has the added benefit of putting -1/-1's on anything that survives combat with it.
I try and focus on a Nykthos-central build weighted strongly towards good enchantments and artifacts for that purpose (coffers package and magus of the coffers included. I augment the idea of big mana black with a few other artifacts - Candelabra of Tawnos (which is a superstar in my build) and Onyx Talisman (Possibly even better for making massive mana). I run a few life enablers like the lands (Diamond Valley and Miren, The Moaning Well) as well as a Disciple of Bolas that can be bonkers with Chainer in play. While I am talking about colorless lands, the only other one I run that you don't is Winding Canyons. I've gotten great political results from it by flashing in a Kokusho, Grey Merchant, Wurmcoil or Chainer when being attacked - or just using it EOT right before my turn.
I'm curious to know how your meta deals with you in terms of Graveyard hate. Mine has light to moderate amounts - I presume yours might also.
Do you have any other decks you play - or if this is the only one, have you noticed opponents adapting their decks to handle the deck they'll know you'll play ? Do you anticipate that happening ?
Imp's Mischief also protects you from disenchant and some forms of gy hate. I use the discard instead/in addition if I need to protect me from counterspells if I want to be doing comboey things.
Re Dark Confidant- Your list looks maybe al ittle high cmc for some folks? I really really like the suicide black thing, and in on the 'last life is the only one that matters' train. That might not be the correct way to play, but I would put bob in this deck if I were playing it. I might think about dropping some of the slower high cmc cards like Dawn of the Dead, Geth and possibly Sorrin (I would Run bob without cutting these too ). You have some decent lifegain already, but just pointing out Sangromancer and Blood Artist as decent engines. I am going to try Plunge into Darkness in the B deck I am making but cannot comment on how good it is yet.
Re Crucicble You don't want to dilute your swamp count to much. Buried Ruin, Fetches and Strands of Night are my favorite additions to your list for using Crucible. Necromancy is a pretty slick reanimate spell for shenanigans too.
A couple other silver bullets I liked recurring in XhD are Massacre Wurm and (sort of ) Kagemaro, First to Suffer.
Also, it seems like yourself, the longer I played mono B Control the more I moved away from big mana strategies. The smaller poxxier plays seemed just as effective, came online earlier, and were harder to disrupt.
Like I said above, I am not a fan of a lot of big mana MBC plays ( Even though I like everything you suggested about it). I like the land shenanigans, and I like Onyx Talisman alot and candelabra seems pretty good too. Things that come online early I guess; I am really wary of time walking myself with 5-6 cmc mana doublers that are just going to die.
I am also not a big fan of really swinging with XhD, I almost never did that even when I gave Hatred a slot; it just felt risky and like I was time walking myself. As odd as it might sound I like XhD in my GY, not in play, and not in my Command zone.
My group packs a decent chunk of GY hate, and XhD still worked fine. I just had to play more of a grindy strategy than a big play strategy. It is pretty fun looking at these kinds of MBC lists, since each one is geared towards that players meta. They all seem to have different 'silver bullet' cards for their unique opponents.
EDIT: BurntGerbil, is songs of the damned something that might be good in your list?
Gitrog Lands
Merieke Ri Berit Flicker
Ramos, Dragon Engine Storm
Right! I always forget about rings and fetches because I have yet to run them together in a deck. I will give it a try once I get a hold of some more black fetches, hoping for a reprint of the Zendikar ones soon. I am definitely running a bit lean on tutors, mostly since I am indecisive and don't always love making up my mind what to tutor. As you pointed out I have tried to make up for this with pretty heavy draw, and it seems to work well enough. You do have my attention with Demonic Consultation! That is a big boy card if I have ever seen one, how often have you decked yourself with it? I love your idea of rolling with a sunforger style utility package along with it and I think the massive gamble of the card would probably be fun to play against. I'll give it a crack.
I like tainted strike and it was definitely on my radar as a temporary substitute for hatred. As is with little pump or equipment for my general it is not worth it, but definitely the right tool for the job if you are going in that direction. Nykthos has definitely been good for me too and I really like the direction it and Grey merchant push my deckbuilding towards cool enchantments I might not reach for otherwise. I still find I get more mileage off of cabal coffers, but now that I think of it I can't remember drawing nykthos in a while, will have to remember to tutor it up. I am purposely trying my best to stay artifact light, which is hard at times, so I can cram in as much blackness as possible.
I definitely don't run into as much graveyard hate as I deserve, and I get away with a lot of things I shouldn't in that respect. Part of that is that I do try and mix up which decks I play a fair bit, usually have 3 - 5 built that cover the whole colour pie, vary in style and have as little overlap as possible. Most of the others get dismantled after a few months for something new, this one has been around the longest and isn't going anywhere. There was a time when I was playing a somewhat tuned Karador, Ghost Chieftain that they rebelled and jammed as much grave hate as possible, but that has all worn off. I could see it coming back to a certain degree since my new mono-red deck right now is a silly Feldon of the Third Path giant dragon unearthing deck so they will be seeing shameless graveyard abuse at least half the time. I would be interested in hearing how you have dealt with the grave hate. I would have thought that not deliberately playing into your yard would be a good start, are there other measures to consider?
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I think you have convinced me to at least give him a try. To be honest I didn't realize how lean my curve was compared to where it started with 15ish big bomb creatures and a bunch of mana doublers. It would be easy to cut Bloodgift Demon, Geth, lord of the vault, Dawn of the Dead maybe Living Death (or is that black blasphemy?) to get it a bit lower. Could slot in Crucible of Worlds, Demonic Consultation, Dark Confidant and Imp's Mischief. My biggest problem with that change would be the hit to devotion, which has been a solid win-con for me. And the fact that it will take a few weeks to scrape together the money for those and the fetches...
I have not found myself hurting for life lately, but I could see how confidant would change that. I had good success with batterskull for that, but sangromnacer is good too and black.
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I can't see cutting Living Death in Xiahou; with his ability to recur it (and the potential combo if you decide to run Phyrexian Altar), it's even better than normal. And it's still a 5 CMC Wrath that gets through indestructible and a host of other annoying protective effects.
Dawn of the Dead just seems over–costed for what it does, and periodic effects like that are less of a source of value when your general can just grab back (nearly) whatever effect you want anyhow.
I don't think mono–black needs as many rocks as you're running, but if you like them, I'd suggest something like Fellwar Stone over the Charcoal Diamond. You shouldn't need the color–fixing, so not having the CiPT restriction makes it a lot better. With Urborg in play, it'll even be guaranteed to produce B for you, anyhow.
I like Necromancy and used to run it in here when it was more about big fatties. I have never thought of it as a strict upgrade over Animate Dead though, 2 mana is just so cheap for that effect. What is it you are doing with XDOE to abuse the instant speed of Necromancy, not sure I see it?
Dawn of the dead is definitely in there as a sub-optimal flavor choice. What I enjoy about it is that you don't have to pay for each use like with corpse dance. That lets you reanimate XDOE, sac him for a non-creature and still have mana up to cast what you brought back. Looking at it now, for that effect I almost might as well run Sheoldred, Whispering One and get some bonus edicts, or else a cheap one-shot liek Necromancy you mentioned above.
Rocks are at an all-time high in this deck, and I still have yet to run into a situation where I am stuck with too many. Part of that is the massive draw power of the deck that lets you play some stuff that is only really optimal early game. If you have a full hand through all of the late game then who cares if there are a couple of rocks sitting in it. Charcoal Diamond and Jet Medallion are constantly on the chopping block in that department, fellwar stone I usually don't like, but I see your point with Urborg, which I do tutor for frequently. The other think that might make a good substitute for one of the crappier rocks is swamp. This deck runs well on 36 or 37 lands, still haven't decided which is best yet.
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I could have been more clear there. I don't think that Xiahou lets you abuse Necromancy so much as he removes part of the opportunity cost of using it at instant speed. Normally if you use it at instant speed you're not just only going to have the creature for one turn, you've also blown a card that could be offering a continual effect. While I think I've only used Xiahou to retrieve Necromancy twice out of all the times I've played this deck, both times were after I had used it at instant speed to bail myself out of one jam or another.
Also, I'm not sure why I mentioned Fellwar Stone when the mana rock I normally run in that slot in mono–black (when I run one at all) is Mind Stone. I don't think you need the colored mana at all, and the card draw is nice. (And more so if you run ways to retrieve it from the yard.)
Mind stone I don't mind, thought I tend to reach for it more often in red or white decks that worry about running out of gas, which is less of a concern here. Do you run Everflowing Chalice? That is the 2cmc rock that has been really impressing me lately.
What does anyone think about Pawn of Ulamog in this deck? I imagine it would end up almost acting like a mana rock, but have never tried it.
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I've thought about Everflowing Chalice because it seems like it would be pretty good at soaking up the excess mana the deck sometimes has in the mid–game, but I've been playing in settings where people are really willing to destroy lands and mana rocks such that I'm typically holding back my Cabal Coffers until I'm really ready to get a lot out of it in the same turn. I also dropped Exsanguinate from my build, so large amounts of colorless mana have become less useful. I'm still considering it, though, and I'm glad to hear it's working out for someone.
I really like Pawn of Ulamog in the deck, and unlike some other token generators, players seem to be willing to let him stick around for a bit accruing value.
Maybe see if your playgroup will let you proxy him for a few games before you spend the money? Since each meta is different there really is no ideal mbc list. Each one kinda has to tailor the control cards to where the meta is at. I like all those changes though.
The Living Death Phyrexian altar combo is sac xhd to get back living death, sac 5 creatures /tokens for 5 black mana. Cast LD, and do it over and over. THis gets infinite EtB triggers and with one more creature infinite mana. Both the pieces are good on their own too.
I value 2 drop rocks a lot too. And please dont cut the Jet Medalion, that thing gets crazy when you start casting more than 0 black spells a turn.
Gitrog Lands
Merieke Ri Berit Flicker
Ramos, Dragon Engine Storm
out:
in:
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in:
out:
A few things happened here, most important was bringing in phyrexian altar, which as you all suggested is a complete house with living death and my general. This found me missing some of the creatures I had cut in previous versions of the list and so a few of those went back in. After a while I ended up taking out the ashnod's altar / nim deathmantle combo because it is a bit artifact heavy for this deck and deathmantle wasn't quite the XDOE recurrion engine I had been hoping for. On paper repeatedly paying 4 for an extra activations of my general is great, but having to keep 4 open and him on the board from turn to turn was inconvenient, especially because of his reputation as a hater (Hatred). Recurring Nightmare bounces in and out of the deck for Reanimate as my play group tolerates it. Looking at those cuts now, I am really wishing I had a spot for Oubliette in there, just because it is so so black. Any cuts you guys see?
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B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GUB The Mimeoplasm
WBR Kaalia of the Vast
I have been on the fence about entomb in the past, mostly because it is nowhere near as broken in this list as it was in my old Karador, Ghost Chieftain deck, or as I imagine it is in your mimeo. It is usually not a blowout card, more a combination of many small synergies and the fact that is is dirt cheap and instant that I think win it the spot. It can play ol' school reanimator by getting grielbrand when you have animate dead in hand (Not my plan A, B or C, but makes you feel like a king to pull it off once or twice a year). It can get you reassembling skeleton at minimal extra cost if you have clamp out or are staring down a smoke stack. Recurring with XDOE is not cheap, but when you need an answer or a missing combo piece, it is always possible and entomb can get it in the yard for you on the cheap. It competes with diabolic tutor, and I am pretty sure it wins the slot because of instant speed. Your thoughts?
Cut Ashes to Ashes? I didn't know that was allowed. Really?
I love the incremental draw cards, even if they are not optimal. I like how it can get games rolling without appearing overly threatening. Digging 20 off Necrologia to find my missing combo piece T4 is probably stronger, but I just don't do it. I am much more of a refill my hand, keep a full grip, kind of a guy. That being said, I do almost always tutor up Necropotence if given the chance early and use that to keep my hand at 7 (see what I mean? I am just not greedy enough to be a real black master) and the incremental draw on top of that is a bit underwhelming. What are you running as alternatives?
I would like to fit in Grim Haruspex, but I feel like I just might be a bit creature light to go all-in on that effect. What I like about Harvester of souls, which kind of follows my logic above, is that it is a very strong early drop to get things rolling without appearing overly threatening. The deathtouch usually deflects a lot of attention from me if I can drop him early, so he often serves as pseudo-lifegain and, as the saying goes, "in EDH, things gonna die". Probably not as good at deflecting attention as forcefield, but I don't have one of those
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B Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
GUB The Mimeoplasm
WBR Kaalia of the Vast
Absolutely considered it, especially since I am now relying on Living Death as a primary win-con. It is more a matter of not wanting to go all-in on any one strategy. One thing I really like about this deck is it can play out in a number of different ways. Entomb is the most brutally efficient way of getting that effect, so it is included. Burried Alive is sweet, but is it worth cutting Pawn of Ulamog for? That is serving a similar effect of easily enabling living death loops while providing additional value if I am going off in a different direction.
I think you nailed the difference between our decks here, and it probably boils down to meta. You protect yourself until you can combo off. I keep on drawing answers and minor threats to eat an opponent's answers until I have overwhelmed them with card advantage, and then often combo off. Interesting.
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Good News / Bad News, Isn't Griselbrand banned in EDH / Commander currently? On the plus this make Dark Confidant less likely to burn you for 8.
Yep, but reading the OP before posting sure isn't! Sorry, that was cheeky, but couldn't resist.
A Griselbrand flip off Dark Confidant is definitely a concern, but they are both so strong, I just have to risk it. The rest of the curve is low enough that on average I am only taking 2 damage per turn off bob, and I can more than live with that.
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The list seems to trend towards being a Griselbrand list that happens to run Xiahou Dun as the general, sadly, but I suppose that isn't so much of an issue, per se.
I find basic-to-hand fetching to be remarkably underwhelming in mono-black... And Everflowing Chalice is pretty underwhelming in general...
I have explanations in my post for why I cut some of the higher CMC cards in your deck. You do seem to be focusing in more on the "Let's make tons of mana and battlecruise away" though.
Even with Vampire Nighthawk as a second option, I think Hatred opens yourself up too easily to being smacked back for lethal or eating a removal spell after you've paid half your life.
I would also definitely suggest Sadistic Sacrament as an all-around all-star card that deals with basically everything.
All in all, a fine list, even if a lot of it isn't in the direction I would go for Xiahou Dun.
Not sure why everyone is so worried about Bob. It doesn't make any sense to talk about the average CMC of non-land cards in a deck in relation to his flips, you have to consider lands as well. On average this deck loses just under 2 life per turn to Dark Confidant, and I am very happy with that.
101: You are right, I still had Strip Mine listed even though I swapped out with something else for sinkhole and swamp a while back. Since I am not interested in playing off-colored fetches and crucible in this deck (I have other decks running of that engine), being able to recur sinkhole has been useful.
I have done enough testing that I am pretty sure this deck likes 37 lands as is. An boy does it ever love swamp, so many black mana symbols, especially in the early drops, and cabal coffers of course.
If your modus operandi is static control and low curve at any cost, mine is "cheap ramp + cheap draw = more action cards played". Since we don't play dedicated fast combo in my meta, this leads to smooth interactive games with lots of threats and answers to play throughout. Not giving you advice, just sharing my motivation for this build.
Everflowing Chalice is fantastic if you are at all interested in playing into the medium/long game. Not saying you should to run it, but it is a midrange-control allstar.
The way I see it, XDOE is like having eternal witness as your general in mono-black, unique and invaluable utility at your fingertips. As a purely utility general he can be built to suit your interests and your meta, combo-control, midrange-control, voltron-stax, stax-stax, you name it. This list is my attempt at midrange-control.
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- Ashes to Ashes + Oubliette (BV know what he is talking about, better give it a try)
- Pawn of Ulamog + Dismember (Needed one more instant speed removal, might actually change this to Hero's Downfall)
Would love to find a spot to get Pawn of Ulamog back in, as well as thoughtseize, as I have found myself missing that functionality lately. Thoughts?
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Should be just over, even w/o Griselbrand, and accounting for lands, but no biggie.
There's a lot of other possibilities, too. Just saying... Though if you're focusing on midrange, there seems to be a lot of high drops and less of the midrange cards than I might expect. Not implying that there's a lack of focus, necessarily, but it's still something to think about, even in a more casual or higher curve deck.