Hello everyone! Long time reader, first time poster here but I figured I would come share a deck I have built and will be testing in my LGS french group. This deck is designed to be a hardcore control deck with many board sweeps, spot removal and hand disruption. Something to bear in mind while reading, this is intended to be a real life deck and I am not made of money. Some cards (i.e original duals, Bob, etc.) I don't want to spend the money on however this isn't meant to be budget so things like (Liliana of the Veil) I am planning on getting eventually because I feel it is worth the cash if/when I can afford it.
The main win cons commander damage or get something like Assemble the Legion out and then destroying the rest of the board. The massive amounts of board clears enable repeated commander hits to face if they do not answer him on their turn (or exile in response), his haste also enables you to wait for an opening and getting in for 7 damage when you can. A couple double enablers help with this but most have other uses (i.e. Boros Charm before Armageddon wins games pretty good).
So here are my first few matchups. I am still trying to work out the tweeks in the deck and figure out exactly what I should fetch when but here is how I did so far:
While Anafenza starts off fairly fast, she also dumps all her things onto board making her very suceptible to the many wrath effects we run. I seemed to be able to clear her off the board frequently to the point she is top decking and Anafenza costs too much to play leaving her with no blockers as Zurgo does the work.
This Grimgrin deck did not seem very optimized and seemed a bit slow. Zurgo's ability to hit board early when the way is clear (after clearing counters with disruption) and then wrath the board to get through proved effective both games.
Narset is a strange matchup. The best strategy seemed to be to MLD earlier than normal (even with nothing in play yourself). Cutting off her initial mana source usually has her struggle to recover and cast her as she'd like. If you can't disrupt her mana source, get rid of haste outlets pronto. Her hexproof leaves her immune to most of our instant speed removal (save for rout which I've had going in and out of the deck). 1 swing is all it takes sometimes for her to wrap up the game.
Child of Alara(Reanimator)2-2
This was a rough matchup that I didn't like. Deck consisted of Dig and pitch spells, dredge and self mills (hedron crab mostly) and then reanimations to pop lands. Not much I can do on a turn 1 counter of thoughtseize, turn 2 tutor, turn 3 flash (ashen rider exiling 2 of my lands) turn 4 dance of the dead exiling another. I am not concerned too much as this seems like a deck I'd never see IRL or at my LGS. Consisted of all original duals and such money cards that the $$ amount would be better spent into a proven better deck and I don't think anyone I know will drop that kind of money on this kind of deck. Blood Moon was a house as you'd expect and there was a game where he dredged for a while but couldn't hit any value creatures before dying to Zurgo.
This was a quick combo deck which wasnt hurt by wrath effects to the desired effect. This matchup engaged a good discussion with other posters below about lowering the curve of the deck as well as some good suggestions to help optimize. I'd like to test this matchup again. This goes back to gy manipulation being a bit of a hassle sometimes. I could add more removal of gy's but that still leaves me uncertain. I may be forced to run a Merciless Eviction or the like to exile undesirable boards but I do not like using a wrath that Zurgo cannot survive if he is on board.
I was excited to see how my deck would run against a known performer in french. My discard got there early and stuck him at 7 open mana and no cards in hand. I was a red mana short of Jokulhaups which would have sealed it but it didnt matter. While I was swinging in for win game 1 the user kicked me from the game. So that was a thing that happened.
Had no problem with this matchup. Deck seemed to have the wraths to clear the board and the evasiveness for the commander (got rogues passage both games) to really not care about blockers. Hexproof commanders are a pain especially one you cant have sac'd away. End Hostilities was an absolute value house in game 1 wrathing a Knight of the Reliquary with umezawa's jitte and Sword of Feast and Famine equipped. Love this card, such a value wrath sometimes.
Thoughts so far (post most recent changelog):
Decreasing the curve has definitely proven useful and the deck is really finding its groove now and I can tell it can be irritating to fight when clicking on all cylinders. Rouge's Passage and Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion are brutal and win their fair share of games. I am struggling a bit against reanimator's who can get a big baddie quickly (but who doesn't struggle against that seriously? Turn 2 or 3 Grizzy, Iona, Prime-time or Ashen Rider is pretty much game over unless you have counter magic or is it just me?). Kind of want to find a spot for mana tithe to disrupt these early game shenanigans that players tap out to do. Running more basics is resulting in getting hosed on colors more. May need to add Darksteel Ingot if it becomes too big of an issue.
Any thoughts or suggestions are more than welcome and please feel free to test the deck out for yourself!
Legacy URGBOops all my spellsBGRU URBYoung GrixisBRU
~Commander~ BUDralnu/ReanimatorUB GRUMaelstroM WanderiNgURG GBMerengue Clan of SalsaBG
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW UTalrand PolymorphishU UAzami, Lady of CAU BRWZurgo, Worldslayer BearerWRB BWUMerieke Ri Berit UWB UVendilion CliqueU
Modern:U Mono-U TroN U
@Lexandur Thank you for all the suggestions. I did throw this together within 2 days between the last sealed I did Sunday night and my LGS Duel Commander Group on Wednesday. Ok to go through your list:
Wear//Tear -> Disenchant: Totally agree, in fact it was sitting in my maybe pile of things I found throughout the week.
Diabolic Edict/Terminate -> Utter End: I kind of like that Utter End both exiles as well as hits anything on the field (save lands). Was considering something like Dreadbore in this spot but you listed that later so I will get there.
Chromatic Lantern -> Mind Rot: Mind Rot was thrown in after my Wednesday night session where all my discard vanished on me for most of the night and I did a slight tweak. Totally 100% agree Chromatic Lantern is the right call here.
Dreadbore -> Desise: Despise was in the same line of thinking as Mind Rot and other then the fact I'd rather get rid of a planes walker before it hits the board and can be used, I agree the dreadbore is still a better option overall.
Coalition Relic -> Mardu Charm: Mardu Charm I like because of it's versitility. Also it is instant speed duress. I am testing to see if I like it or not. Coalition Relic is still a good call though and I may try and find a slot. One of those good cards I dont have but would not mind tracking one down.
Price of Glory -> Crackling Doom: I kept crackling doom in here over Diabolic Edict because it gets rid of their biggest creature as well, in case they have swarmed the board with dudes. Price of Glory is the perfect anti-control card I wanted and need. Totally forgot about it and another add when I can track one down.
Sun Titan -> Rakdos Charm: I don't really like the charm and Sun Titan was always on the edge for me. What kept bringing me back is the possibility of him being out after an Armageddon goes off so I can get my lands back. Also I am considering adding Ajani, Caller of the pride (flying and doublestrike seems good) as well as Liliana of the Veil and since they would be Titan targets, he might be worth keeping around? Still not sold on him but as an alternate win-con should I get him out and destroy all lands.
Skullclamp -> Nevinyrral's Disk: I totally agree clamps and bitterblossum are rediculous. I have a judge promo bitterblossum too but it likes to play hide and seek with me and have yet to see it :-/. I grabbed Nevinyrral's Disk for more board clear but after all the games I have played it definately isn't required so I will probably make the list. The Clamps also works with Assemble the Legion.
Chaos Warp -> Sorin, Solemn Visitor: Without general tucking in French I find these tucks less viable. Sorin is in the deck because it turns the 1/1 Fairy or Soldier tokens into 2/1 lifelinkers which seems to help with the Emo Draw that black tends to bring. Not to mention if you can get him to live for two turns his emblem can effectively shut opponents down. I really like that emblem and Sorin usually must be answered giving you time to do other things (gaining 8 off each commander swing is a bonus too)
Darksteel Ingot -> Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker: Ingot is another good mana rock on the consider list. I disagree on Sarkhan though. I have found him extremely useful as a planeswalker killer. Also he is another win-con with Obliterate because he survives as both a planeswalker and creature. His Flamtounge Kavu minus isn't shabby either. Don't care for his ult but that isn't why he is around.
Catastrophe -> Sorin Markov: Never knew about Catastrophe and really like it. In this deck I rarely use his initial minus. The plus for shocks and lifegain mixed with his ult winning games is why he is here. I can see cutting him still though. Mindslaving someone against this deck pretty much spells the end because of how quickly they can be killed with general damage.
Aurelia, the warleader -> Thoughts of ruin: While Aurelia is interesting and I'd consider a slot for her (or gisela blade of goldnight) for sure, I have had good success with thoughts of ruin. I agree its terrible to top deck with no hand, I seem to have it early game when I am holding onto a grip of answers. Dropping turn 4 commander and then clearing away all or most lands on turn 5 has rapped up the game for me so far. It might get removed for Catastrophe which (with mana rocks) will be consistent and better. If I was in magical moneyland I'd be running Ravages of War but that place rejected my visa.
Ajani, Caller of the pride -> Perish the thought: Like other discard options I threw it in to add more revealing of their hand I have mentioned this Ajani before. Still searching for one but totally want to add it once I get it.
Imp's Mischief: I saw that while researching cards and like it although spells cant target themselves so I don't think it can really stop counterspells because unless there is another spell on the stack for it to counter, there are no other viable targets. I think its too situational personnally and would end up as a semi-dead card in hand while you wait for anything to use it on.
Mardu Bannder -> Coldsteel Heart: I realized last night that Coldsteel makes you choose a color last night and immediately replaced it with the banner already. May end up doing Darksteel Ingot because it is also indestructible.
Again thank you for all the suggestions. Lots of good ones and we are definately in the same line of thinking. I am also wondering about Vandalblast. 1 drop artifact removal or 5 drop sweep of all opposing artifacts seems relavant. Decks that ramp with lots of rocks I could hold onto it or use it as spot removal if needed. Unlike my other sweeps it only affects opponents. Who knows if I will find a spot or like it at all in the long run... Just a thought.
@KriggY I didn't see any other Zurgo decks posted but I will look again. I have been considering adding more lands but my brain wonders if adding 2 more lands in total will really fix the problem. Seems like such a small tweek and would require me to cut 2 other items. I will do some tweaking and add some lands. If I add any, I am think 3 more (one of each basic).
Quick Changelog post. Made changes to initial deck in post.
+ Chromatic Lantern
+ Skullclamp
+ Aurelia, the Warleader
+ Price of Glory
+ Wear//Tear
+ Ajani, Caller of the Pride
- Coldsteel Heart
- Nevinyrral's Disk
- Disenchant
- Skeletal Scrying
- Thoughts of Ruin
- Despise
Additionally just had some interesting matches against another Anafenza deck(2-1). Board clears for days. Deck is running a lot smoother now (maybe it just needed a few virtual shuffles). Ajani, Caller of the Pride came to immediate use and won me game 3. I had 3 other board clears and probably had the game anyway but being able to end it that turn rather than wait and pray against a topdeck was definitely the way to go.
You change counterspell's target to mischief itself, Imp's Mischief will be a valid target while both are on the stack, but when Imp's resolves the counterspells fizzles as the target is gone = great vs remand/cryptic command then.
If you are only playing Markov for the mindslaver effect, then you should just run Mindslaver itself but it is too slow imo (I love mindslave effects, they are incredibly fun believe me, but as a voltron deck I don't think it is necessary).
Sorin, Solemn Visitor, it will be so rare to get both sorin and the token generators at the same time and even if you do get them both, your opponent can shut down sorin with a disenchant or a pithing needle. Even a Whispersilk Cloak or a Steelshaper's Gift is better in my opinion.
Most of the time, you tuck a big thread with Chaos Warp and they get a land or some random mana rock. You can always run Oblivion Ring if you like, but instant speed permanent removal is very appealing, especially with that casting cost.
Moonlight Bargain, going from 0 cards in hand to 4 or 5 is a game changer. You could also run Coercive Portal [as a colourless phyrexian arena in 1 vs 1].
I don't really like board clears that mess up with our mana rocks (Akroma's Vengeance, Planar Cleansing, etc), since LD is something we run, alternative mana producers are quite valuable imo.
Legacy URGBOops all my spellsBGRU URBYoung GrixisBRU
~Commander~ BUDralnu/ReanimatorUB GRUMaelstroM WanderiNgURG GBMerengue Clan of SalsaBG
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW UTalrand PolymorphishU UAzami, Lady of CAU BRWZurgo, Worldslayer BearerWRB BWUMerieke Ri Berit UWB UVendilion CliqueU
Modern:U Mono-U TroN U
I tried to get this deck to work but i couldn't. I feel like the hard control version of this deck if severely hindered by its card choices. When i was fiddling with it, it felt like if I ran enough cards to outpace aggro, then control pooped on my face, and when i tried to clean up some of the dead draws against control, aggro ate me alive. I feel like Zurgo isn't very ideal as a control finisher, as you need smaller creatures to eat their removal otherwise Zurgo is just going to die too easily. No trample really really hurts him, and there just isnt enough room to run anything that gives trample. It's hard to run a control deck in this format without blue, as it gives you the ability to filter through your dead draws in certain match ups. I was pretty pumped to test this deck out when it got spoiled, as Jokulhaups is one of my favorite cards.
After a lot of configuring I now run much more of a aggro/tempo control version of this deck. Has a good amount of the same cards, but curving out turn 1-3 with high pressure creatures and spells really made a big difference.
Not meant to be negative in any way, happy brewing and good luck So happy we have a RWB commander to play with now in this format (sorry Kalia nobody likes you).
Ok I may look into Imp's Mischief then. I like Sorin Markov because he can remove utility creatures with his plus on the way to the mind slave. He seems to do pretty well for himself when I run into him. The main reason I am running Solemn Visitor is gaining 8 life with general is a nice swing and because of the constant board clears, if you can play him when they do not have anything to hit him with, its not too hard to keep him alive for another turn unless they have a haster (or something with flash). The emblem will cripple opponents who aren't spewing tons of tokens or free creatures (i think of Grenzo and Yisan when I think of creatures like that, so maybe they arent free but they can pump out dudes just as fast as the emblem takes them away, Genzo sometimes faster). His synergy with Bitterblossum and Assemble the Legion is just a bonus.
Agree that Moonlight is nice although so far there are games where I am being rushed down and spending 5 mana and 10 life just isnt feasibly responsible. I could get the one answer I need but usually it means I still have to wait until the following turn. I'd rather be forced to use my card draw spells on turns 2-4 and be able to smash the board on turns 4-6. Running a few games with just the 3 sign in blood stuff and I seem to not be needing a topdeck all that frequently. I do like Coercive Portal and run it in other decks. Might include just so I can get that effect more often in this but we will see when I need it.
I don't mind losing my artifacts as much. I mainly like Jokulhaupsing the board so I focus on enchantments, plainswalkers and zurgo which will stay alive and can close the game out from there.
There may be a misconception that this really isn't designed as Voltron. It is more supposed to be control (think Ruhan of the Fomori but in Dega\Mardu). Some rocks are nice to yes ramp because if you can get him out before they have answers great but I'd rather control the board and their hand so that they are reduced to top decking for answers on a limited clock or destroying all mana sources so that even if they do happen to have the answer in hand, they don't have the resources to use it.
@maxdangerous Yeah I am fully open to ideas. I seem to not be having as much problems against aggro because by the time they may have built up a second board state from wrath I have another 2 wraths in hand. I do struggle against other hard counter control match ups. Ride Down is pretty good because even when they think they have a blocker, you just pop it and run through for 7. The other option which is my favorite is to just wrath the board again before combat and the swing. I agree that they can get things down quickly but typically the first wrath drops turn 4. I'd be interested to see how you built yours I agree glad we don't have to play Kalia. I really hate her because while I want to drop Demons, Angels and Dragons in a deck, she is just too easy and dumb. I am a Junk player at heart and am building Anafenza as well but she kinda builds herself. I saw Zurgo and saw potential to play control without blue (I am definately not a blue player. Hate the color because you see the same cards in every deck with it.. i.e Big Papa Jace, Gilded Drake, Trechery etc.[yawn])
Legacy URGBOops all my spellsBGRU URBYoung GrixisBRU
~Commander~ BUDralnu/ReanimatorUB GRUMaelstroM WanderiNgURG GBMerengue Clan of SalsaBG
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW UTalrand PolymorphishU UAzami, Lady of CAU BRWZurgo, Worldslayer BearerWRB BWUMerieke Ri Berit UWB UVendilion CliqueU
Modern:U Mono-U TroN U
I've been watching your games lately, you really need something to compensate your speed and curve. Like we discussed from last night, you have to lower your curve and you might also need some cheap removals...
ie
You have really high curve and most of your most of your opponent's top bosses are cheaper and more controllish than you. They wouldn't let you have your way of fun.
Thank you guys for your input and discussion last night. I will be lowering the curve today while I watch football and post the changes aftewards. I will also be editing the original post with matchups, removing the game by game thing and going more with how the deck plays against the matchup as a whole.
To the cards suggested:
Parallax Wave: I really like this card and it would both lower my curve and let me keep swinging through should they play more blockers. My only worries with it are, it lets my opponents abuse their ebt effects again which I really don't want and it may screw up my curve into an Armageddon type effect. Would not want to have it coming back in a turn if all lands are gone (depending what it is). Will try it out as I have seen this get rid of a small grip of creatures and may help stall long enough that when they get their creatures back I can get a better value wrath and keep swinging which could be game ending.
Faithless Looting: All the yes. Just have to get one. Due to life issues I wasn't playing magic during that set but they are cheap and I have no problem ordering.
Fire Covenant: I sort of like this. It is cheap and can clear multiple utility creatures so I may give it a shot. I think it wouldn't be effective late game as I would take too much damage trying to use it.
Toxic Deluge: As we discussed about this, I will play test it but I don't like any board clear that gets rid of Zurgo on my turn (while he is indestructible). I do like how cheap it is to drop and the only 3 drop wrath I can think of is perish so I will see how this goes.
Enlightened Tutor: I am just going to leave my big bucket of yes... wish I owned one but don't care, definately a card I will look in the case at my LGS or order online to aquire for the deck.
Path to Exile: When I added Swords to Plowshares I was considering adding in Path as well. I don't like that it gives them land making it less effective after a Destructive Force or Geddon. Still 1 drop removal is nice.
Terminate: I like most of my spot removal to be of the X or Y catagory. Look at Mortify, Dreadbore and Hero's Downfall as examples. I would hate to be playing against a heavy control deck and have them as dead draws if I add too many.
Boseiju, Who Shelters All: I agree with this addition as I play with only like 2-3 creatures. I may replace a non-land card with it so it keeps my normal color base flowing.
Magus of the Moon/Blood Moon: I agree adding in more basics could help. I never really liked the Magus because of how easy he is to remove but would he strictly be better than Blood Moon? I'll test out Blood Moon first as it is the one I own.
Land Tax: I really like it and will have to throw it in along with a compliment of basics. Suvives Obliterate effects and pretty much gives me the land race win.
Thank you again guys for you're talk on it and suggestions. I'll be back in a few hours with another change log. Oh and what do you guys think of replacing Destructive force with Burning of Xinye? Since it came out in the new FTV it isn't an arm and a leg anymore. 6cmc vs 7cmc at the cost of 1 damage and 1 less land sac?
Didn't even remember Wildfire. Functional reprint yay!! Ok so the deck is flowing a lot smoother so far. Definately need more games to test it out. Here are the changes I have made.
Mana color problems are definately cropping up but it hasnt been back breaking yet. It didn't help people are going hard after the white sources. I got to keep testing and I'll update after a few more matches.
Haven't been able to really do any more tweaking or testing over the last few days. My LGS tournament is tonight so I will post the results of that, there are only usually 6-8 of us. Also I was considering Academy Rector. Figured if I Obliterate the board I can go get something like Assemble the Legion. Because I am also a terrible person, is it bad that I am considering Barren Glory for this exact reason as well?
Barren Glory, is hard to set up and does nothing to the current board.
I found Faithless Looting to be exellent in this deck, sometimes you have multiple LD or useless spells/lands in hand and you can cicle them with looting.
Legacy URGBOops all my spellsBGRU URBYoung GrixisBRU
~Commander~ BUDralnu/ReanimatorUB GRUMaelstroM WanderiNgURG GBMerengue Clan of SalsaBG
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW UTalrand PolymorphishU UAzami, Lady of CAU BRWZurgo, Worldslayer BearerWRB BWUMerieke Ri Berit UWB UVendilion CliqueU
Modern:U Mono-U TroN U
I agree Barren Glory is hard to set up. With Decree of Annihilation, Jokulhaups and Obliterate it seemed like a possibility to have onboard with nothing else (as that seems to be my most consistent wincon its either Zurgo, Planeswalker or Assemble the legion by itself. The one thing I don't think I can ditch easily is my hand though). Ofcourse it was just if I wanted to be cheeky. Still like Academy Rector to fetch Assemble the Legion because that card has won me every game it comes out and since the tokens ramp, board clearing isn't all that bad. Was also trying to find a spot for Oblivion Ring and this could really justify its spot.
I love faithless looting in here as well. Added it to my Cockatrice deck, don't have one IRL yet but am searching through friends commons and uncommons trying to find one. Worse case I'll order it online because cheap commons are cheap. Also the flashback helps if I do end up with few cards in hand and don't like my topdecking skills (this is me far too often. My opponents all topdeck like motherf'in champions, I on the other hand have been horrid at it).
I still have Chandra, Pyromancer in my RL deck and she was initially in the deck design. I always seem to have her in hand at the wrong time but I do like her. Also her +1 stops a blocker to allow Zurgo to get through if needed.
I've lowered my curve a bit over the last few days and it is definitely running smoother now. My struggle in adding spot removals comes down to that they would probably have to replace board clears and I'd rather have a board clear than a spot remover in this deck. I will continue to look at spot removals I prefer the ones that can hit different kinds of targets (Mortify as an example). I don't know why it didn't pop into my mind but I should add Vindicate in here. Just as I said I need/want, cheap spot removal that will always have a target.
A couple other card options. I am highly considering Vandalblast so I can clear mana rocks against ramp opponents and against non ramp opponents it can spot remove an artifact for cheap. The other thing I am considering is something along the lines of Sire of Insanity. Might hurt to pitch my hand but it seems if I can force opponents into topdeck mode my odds of winning go up dramatically. Thoughts? Is there cheaper options? Possibly enchantments?
I'm using Sire and it's great, since it is NOT a one time Mind Twist but a continuous insurance for Zurgo.
Defense Grid and Pyroclasm/Whipflare/Anger of the Gods effects should be a meta call, lots of U ? Grid and discard should take more relevance; there are more midrange/aggro decks ? Pyroclasm cleans mana dorks like a champ.
I'm using Aven Mindcensor atm, tutors and fetchlands are a common thing in my group.
Also, abunchofmidrangecreatures got into my list, the more useful creatures we use the higher the chances are for Zurgo to avoid removal. They can also carry a sword if needed.
Legacy URGBOops all my spellsBGRU URBYoung GrixisBRU
~Commander~ BUDralnu/ReanimatorUB GRUMaelstroM WanderiNgURG GBMerengue Clan of SalsaBG
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW UTalrand PolymorphishU UAzami, Lady of CAU BRWZurgo, Worldslayer BearerWRB BWUMerieke Ri Berit UWB UVendilion CliqueU
Modern:U Mono-U TroN U
Ok so we had a few more people last night (woot we are up to 9) and we did 3 rounds with a top 4. Here is the meta (keep in mind most people have multiple decks so they do switch out. Since I don't have all the cards in the list just yet (should be arriving in the next couple days), I was playing with closer to my original list. I did run 43 lands and the deck still didn't like me seeing them on a consistent basis (not a color problem but an amount problem definately. I think its a curse of running MLD.
Round 1: Griselbrand 0-2 (This matchup is my roommate but not his deck just one he has been piloting the last few weeks.)
Game 1: I got stuck on 5 land for a while. Had to get cheeky to get red source to cast commander on turn 5. (Tap my 4 lands, crack ghost quarters destroying my own plains to get a mountain, tap mountain, play Zurgo and swing. Needless to say he was suprised and a bit pissed without a response in hand). Unfortunately he ripped a Toxic Deluge (value town card as it is, kinda uber against Zurgo since 2 life kills him) and I never drew another land all game. When he finally started getting in for damage with Griselbrand he had to cast it for 18. So the kill\wrath spells were there in full force but without the lands or planeswalkers to abuse the turns of stalling.
Game 2: I could not topdeck to save my life this game. Both early hand disruptions to rip 2 of his mana rocks, he top decked into another and kept the ramp. I topdeck Austere Command turn 5 with 5 open mana and 2 cards in hand. He goes and I get Stupify'd (he confessed to ripping it off the top like a boss) and he casts Griselbrand. Didn't draw an answer and he got game 2.
Game 1: Opening hand was 4 lands, Wrath of God, Damnation and Thoughtseize and I was on the play. Thoughtseize showed he had no hand disruption and 1 kill spell. Mana dork and other small dudes in hand. I wiped the board turn 4, zurgo turn 5 and then wipe blockers off the board turn 6. He killed Zurgo turn 6 but I had been drawing ample mana so recast turn 7 to swing in for game.
Game 1: Counter-spells for days. I never drew enough mana to possible cast 2 spells a turn and getting 1 through. Managed to get geist offboard early with Council of Judgement and he never replayed him. Elspeth Sun's Champion got there in the end though.
Game 2: This game was a lot closer. Early Defensive Grid (in place for Price of Glory in my RL deck. REALLY like it and does the work against these control decks). Unfortunately he dropped Big Papa Jace with blocker protection before I could Zurgo and Armageddon the board (had it in hand and was just waiting for the play). Eventually I had to settle for routing the board and then casting Armageddon. He was a bit hard up on lands early in the game but with Jace Brainstorming every turn he was starting to catch back up. I had a land left in hand (Volrath's Stronghold), mana rock in play and Sad Bot in graveyard. This definately worked to my advantage in the end. The main problem I had this game is all the self harm my deck did to me (pay life for cards). Out of 30 life, he did a total of 10 damage by the end of the game. It was necessary evil but it did hurt in the long run.
All in all, my RL deck is missing crucial pieces and still has a higher curve than I'd like but the pattern of matchups seems to hold true for me. Control deck (and I usually get mana screwed match 1 on the night), Creature deck (which I roflstomp and get perfect hands), Control deck (This Geist player runs many more counters than most and likes to "always have a counter in hand"). Still a fun night as usual. Love defensive grid and will leave it in. Gonna add Coercive Portal as well. The games I got Phyrexian Arena to stick really helped and I think more consistent CA will help. Also might run Underworld Connections and add Erebos, God of the Dead back in.
@Lexandur I am currently running Anger of the Gods and Volcanic Fallout and both are doing the work in my meta. Seems to be enough mana dorks or cheap creatures I need to remove (like geist). Aven Mindcensor might find a spot, however it does seem my group is more prone to dig rather than tutor. We do have our fair share of fetchlands but I don't know if there would be enough to warrant it. I agree with your list of midrange creatures added and may try and find some slots for them (though as I put in the original post, Bob is out of my price range), been thinking of Grand Abolisher for a while because... screw counters.
I'd also like to note that based on the decks people were playing, I think I pulled some tough matchups against this deck. Would have loved to play Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Anax and Cymede or Anafenza, the Foremost as I think my deck would have a good advantage with all the board scrubbers. That is what it is. I will keep tinkering and hopefully play a bit more tonight and post the results.
I see, I need to get my hands on one defense grid then. How good was Solemn Simulacrum for you ? too slow ? too irelevant ?
I have the same problem, card draw [it can either solve your land issue or draw disruption]. Underworld Connections is very counter-intuitive, isn't it ?
What about Ajani Vengeant ? how was his performance ?
I'm having second thoughts about Assemble the Legion, I always thought it was a dead draw late game and expensive for the early game but it can grind out certain decks.
I think we should prioritize hand disruption over anything else, stripping counterspells and removal before slaming zurgo on the table is vital imo.
Legacy URGBOops all my spellsBGRU URBYoung GrixisBRU
~Commander~ BUDralnu/ReanimatorUB GRUMaelstroM WanderiNgURG GBMerengue Clan of SalsaBG
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW UTalrand PolymorphishU UAzami, Lady of CAU BRWZurgo, Worldslayer BearerWRB BWUMerieke Ri Berit UWB UVendilion CliqueU
Modern:U Mono-U TroN U
I do feel Solemn Simulacrum is probably too slow in the end. I will say I haven't drawn it or had it in opening hand and been disappointed. He always grants you next turn Zurgo if you want it (or 5 drop wrath cards) and he turns your next wrath into a cantrip so I think it definitely could be worse. Also a way to fetch basics so Blood Moon doesn't hurt is always welcome.
I have been on the fence about Underworld Connections for that exact reason and have yet to try it out. My thought process being that if you do not need to tap out that turn, you could then draw an extra card at EOT. Still unsure but it is a card draw source that is repeatable for sure.
Defensive Grid has performed a lot better than I expected. It is usually obvious when there is a counter in hand as they have to leave 5-6 mana open. Most people aren't willing to commit that much for the chance to counter something. Also might make Mana Tithe (which I finally found amongst my stuff to add in) all that more viable (and I think it still might be viable because people don't exactly expect counters out of these colors).
I agree hand disruption is a necessity. My main issue currently is drawing any. I have tried several matches where I maximized the early disruption spells at the cost of the rest of the deck and it still doesn’t seem to work as well. Tend to draw into them late game when you need removal for things already on board.
The specter’s may be worth trying. I don’t like hypnotic specter as much because it gives them a turn to drop a blocker or use removal after untaping. I like blazing specter for the haste but his CMC seems a bit high for the cost of 1 card.
Ajani Vengeant has been really good. Useing him to keep things like griselbrand, maze of ith, cabal coffers, gaes cradle, and any other ramp tapped, spot removal and lifegain for utility creatures. In a longer drawn out game where you can pop his ult, generally gg. He is also low enough in CMC to keep me happy with his performance. How has your experience with him been if you are running him?
I did add Sire of Insanity and it is an absolute house. Even resolving for 1 turn seems to hose counter control matchups as they typically seem to topdeck a counterspell (useless as they have to pitch it at EOT, a bounce (removes him but then you just recast and trololol), a draw spell (hoping to topdeck both counterspell and bounce to keep you from recasting). Maybe a cure for the hand disruption might be some tutors or something to get him out more regularly (recursion). Thinking along the lines of Buried Alive with things like Animate Dead sprinkled in, Stupify is pretty good so I may try adding that. Also what typically happens for me against the counter decks is they have SO much draw that they end up getting back to their counters anyway :-/. I think finding a consistent way to force discard and the Specters might help with that. Additionally, what are your thoughts on Spirit of the Labyrinth to keep others from getting CA on you?
In my test Academy Rector has been a house as well. The fact you prime your own removal with the board sweeps can set up some early enchantment plays. Assemble the Legion has been solid for me as a finisher most games as it seems to be stapled to my Sorin, Solemn Visitor. With all the self hate in the deck, the life gain has been pretty good value.
With the weekend more tweaks will be on their way. I will probably be online tonight to continue testing. Thanks for your input. All in all most people in my group have expressed their frustrations as this deck improves (a good thing). Most of them are pretty experienced and as they peruse the decklist see the strengths it has and hate that it sometimes requires them to fetch a very specific answer which sometimes doesn’t help in the end. (removing on their turn just to have Zurgo drop in for another 7 because they were not left with enough mana to remove AND leave a blocker on field). Rogue’s Passage is also usually followed by an eye roll as they scramble to find removal in time.
IRL I ran a Vault of the Archangel and it was a nice compliment for the lifegain mostly. When this deck does have board state (and Zurgo isn’t on board or adequate removal isn’t in hand) it has been nice to get the lifelink when needed.
Final card for thought that just came to mind. Stoneshaker Shaman. Early enough to possibly get past a counterspell, they either have to use removal on it or will tap out every turn. If they leave themselves untapped and take the sac'd land it gives you a big indicator they are planning something. Not a perfect solution by far (and I wish it was an enchantment and not a creature).
wow, that shaman is certainly a finding
I love price of glory to grind out those pesky control decks, I have played against that enchantment and it is not very funny lol (exept for the red player).
I thought about Vault of the Archangel before, a must have vs aggro metas but I'm already using Sunhome, Rogue's Passage along with Maze of Ith and I don't want to struggle with my mana base more than I have to. Maybe I will replace sunhome with vault, which reminds me that I need to get my hands on enlightment tutor, academy rector and an urborg.
Spirit of the Labyrinth can do wonders with dark confidant and other midrange creatures, I like the direction the deck is heading.
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Legacy URGBOops all my spellsBGRU URBYoung GrixisBRU
~Commander~ BUDralnu/ReanimatorUB GRUMaelstroM WanderiNgURG GBMerengue Clan of SalsaBG
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW UTalrand PolymorphishU UAzami, Lady of CAU BRWZurgo, Worldslayer BearerWRB BWUMerieke Ri Berit UWB UVendilion CliqueU
Modern:U Mono-U TroN U
I completely agree with you. I love finding value commons and uncommons. Too many people rely on rares to do the work and miss the true gems. Price of Glory has done wonders for me as well. Sometimes them losing 2-3 lands is worth them countering the spell.
I don't know if I'd replace Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion because doublestrike is still value since it reduces you to a 2 turn clock (and for the most part is uncounterable) but I agree that Vault of the Archangel would probably need to replace it. I think it is a preference call. I think Vault of the Archangel works better because your tokens become valuable as well and the doublestrike is really only good with Zuro.
I like the direction its heading as well. I am currently sorting through all my cards in an effort to get re-organized and will post anything else I find that is interesting.
Spirit of the Labyrinth also encourages us to use Underworld Connections and Erebos, God of the Dead. Also we can get spirit of the Labyrinth with any of the enchantment tutors we have. With all the enchantments creeping into the deck, maybe there are some enchantment tutors that might make the cut (or Replenish?). Another card for thought, Dark Tutelage instead (or in addition to) of Dark Confidant? Honestly part of the appeal of Dark Confidant is we can wipe it away when it becomes too dangerous (but also its downside in that it can be removed easily). Dark Tutelage is also another enchantment which can be fetched with enchantment tutors and survives Jokulhaups when you are wanting to get CA to win the land race (if you couldn't establish a win-con before board wiping).
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1 Zurgo Helmsmasher
CREATURES (8):
1 Magister of Worth
1 Sun Titan
1 Academy Rector
1 Mother of Runes
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Stoneshaker Shaman
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Grand Abolisher
INSTANTS (6):
1 Mortify
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Boros Charm
1 Wear // Tear
1 Enlightened Tutor
SORCERIES (23):
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Burning of Xinye
1 Obliterate
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Distress
1 Wrath of God
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Austere Command
1 Castigate
1 Duress
1 Mind Shatter
1 Council's Judgment
1 End Hostilities
1 Catastrophe
1 Thoughtseize
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Armageddon
1 Dreadbore
1 Decree of Annihilation
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Night's Whisper
1 Damnation
1 Jokulhaups
1 Faithless Looting
1 Rakdos Signet
1 Boros Signet
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Expedition Map
1 Defensive Grid
1 Coercive Portal
ENCHANTMENTS (10):
1 Parallax Wave
1 Blood Moon
1 Land Tax
1 Dystopia
1 Rest in Peace
1 Parallax Nexus
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Assemble the Legion
1 Bitterblossom
1 Price of Glory
1 Dark Tutelage
PLANESWALKER (5):
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Ajani, Caller of the Pride
LANDS (40):
5 Swamp
5 Mountain
5 Plains
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Blood Crypt
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Nomad Outpost
1 Godless Shrine
1 Command Tower
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Rogue's Passage
1 City of Brass
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Windswept Heath
1 Temple of Silence
1 Temple of Malice
1 Temple of Triumph
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Vault of the Archangel
The main win cons commander damage or get something like Assemble the Legion out and then destroying the rest of the board. The massive amounts of board clears enable repeated commander hits to face if they do not answer him on their turn (or exile in response), his haste also enables you to wait for an opening and getting in for 7 damage when you can. A couple double enablers help with this but most have other uses (i.e. Boros Charm before Armageddon wins games pretty good).
So here are my first few matchups. I am still trying to work out the tweeks in the deck and figure out exactly what I should fetch when but here is how I did so far:
Anafenza 4-2
While Anafenza starts off fairly fast, she also dumps all her things onto board making her very suceptible to the many wrath effects we run. I seemed to be able to clear her off the board frequently to the point she is top decking and Anafenza costs too much to play leaving her with no blockers as Zurgo does the work.
Grimgrin, Corpse-Born 2-0
This Grimgrin deck did not seem very optimized and seemed a bit slow. Zurgo's ability to hit board early when the way is clear (after clearing counters with disruption) and then wrath the board to get through proved effective both games.
Narset, Enlightened Master4-2
Narset is a strange matchup. The best strategy seemed to be to MLD earlier than normal (even with nothing in play yourself). Cutting off her initial mana source usually has her struggle to recover and cast her as she'd like. If you can't disrupt her mana source, get rid of haste outlets pronto. Her hexproof leaves her immune to most of our instant speed removal (save for rout which I've had going in and out of the deck). 1 swing is all it takes sometimes for her to wrap up the game.
Child of Alara(Reanimator)2-2
This was a rough matchup that I didn't like. Deck consisted of Dig and pitch spells, dredge and self mills (hedron crab mostly) and then reanimations to pop lands. Not much I can do on a turn 1 counter of thoughtseize, turn 2 tutor, turn 3 flash (ashen rider exiling 2 of my lands) turn 4 dance of the dead exiling another. I am not concerned too much as this seems like a deck I'd never see IRL or at my LGS. Consisted of all original duals and such money cards that the $$ amount would be better spent into a proven better deck and I don't think anyone I know will drop that kind of money on this kind of deck. Blood Moon was a house as you'd expect and there was a game where he dredged for a while but couldn't hit any value creatures before dying to Zurgo.
Selvala, Explorer Returned 1-3 or 2-2 i dont remember I was pretty tired
This was a quick combo deck which wasnt hurt by wrath effects to the desired effect. This matchup engaged a good discussion with other posters below about lowering the curve of the deck as well as some good suggestions to help optimize. I'd like to test this matchup again. This goes back to gy manipulation being a bit of a hassle sometimes. I could add more removal of gy's but that still leaves me uncertain. I may be forced to run a Merciless Eviction or the like to exile undesirable boards but I do not like using a wrath that Zurgo cannot survive if he is on board.
Maelstrom Wanderer 1-0
I was excited to see how my deck would run against a known performer in french. My discard got there early and stuck him at 7 open mana and no cards in hand. I was a red mana short of Jokulhaups which would have sealed it but it didnt matter. While I was swinging in for win game 1 the user kicked me from the game. So that was a thing that happened.
Sigarda, Host of Herons 2-1
Had no problem with this matchup. Deck seemed to have the wraths to clear the board and the evasiveness for the commander (got rogues passage both games) to really not care about blockers. Hexproof commanders are a pain especially one you cant have sac'd away. End Hostilities was an absolute value house in game 1 wrathing a Knight of the Reliquary with umezawa's jitte and Sword of Feast and Famine equipped. Love this card, such a value wrath sometimes.
Thoughts so far (post most recent changelog):
Decreasing the curve has definitely proven useful and the deck is really finding its groove now and I can tell it can be irritating to fight when clicking on all cylinders. Rouge's Passage and Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion are brutal and win their fair share of games. I am struggling a bit against reanimator's who can get a big baddie quickly (but who doesn't struggle against that seriously? Turn 2 or 3 Grizzy, Iona, Prime-time or Ashen Rider is pretty much game over unless you have counter magic or is it just me?). Kind of want to find a spot for mana tithe to disrupt these early game shenanigans that players tap out to do. Running more basics is resulting in getting hosed on colors more. May need to add Darksteel Ingot if it becomes too big of an issue.
Any thoughts or suggestions are more than welcome and please feel free to test the deck out for yourself!
Disenchant ---> Wear//Tear
Utter End ---> Diabolic Edict/Terminate 4 mana is a heavy investment for only 1 permanent.
Mind Rot ---> Chromatic Lantern, running lots of WW, BB, RR will screw you over
Despise ---> Dreadbore, much better top deck than a discard spell when your opponent has no hand
Mardu Charm---> Coalition Relic, I need to test the charm myself, but I don't think that the effect is good enough.
Crackling Doom ---> Price of Glory, anti-"control" card, crackling is a BOMB in multiplayer, but you better run spot removal in 1 vs 1.
Skeletal Scrying ---> Moonlight Bargain, I've tested scrying, it's a burden in your opening hand if you don't play a few fetchlands, I had problems after turn 7 or 8, when I don't have more cards in hand and only 2 or 3 cards in the graveyard.
Sun Titan ---> Rakdos Charm, good stuff titan is great in long games, but we aim to do 21 commander damage asap. The charm can stop some combos, and removing graveyard instant speed is amazing.
Nevinyrral's Disk ---> Skullclamp, bitterblossom and assemble the legion best friend.
Sorin, Solemn Visitor ---> Chaos Warp/Unexpectedly Absent, ummh why is sorin here ?
Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker ---> Darksteel Ingot, sarkhan doesn't do enough
Sorin Markov ---> Catastrophe, either option will put you ahead
Thoughts of Ruin ---> Aurelia, the warleader, top decking that sorcery with no cards in hand is terrible :S
Perish the Thought ---> Ajani, Caller of the pride
Obzedat's Aid ---> Imp's mischief, this is a personal choice, it can also help you combat counterspells, spot removal or even let you draw cards.
Coldsteel Heart ---> Mardu Banner
URGBOops all my spellsBGRU
URBYoung GrixisBRU
~Commander~
BUDralnu/ReanimatorUB
GRUMaelstroM WanderiNgURG
GBMerengue Clan of SalsaBG
UTalrand PolymorphishU
UAzami, Lady of CAU
BRWZurgo, Worldslayer BearerWRB
BWUMerieke Ri Berit UWB
UVendilion CliqueU
Modern:U Mono-U TroN U
Wear//Tear -> Disenchant: Totally agree, in fact it was sitting in my maybe pile of things I found throughout the week.
Diabolic Edict/Terminate -> Utter End: I kind of like that Utter End both exiles as well as hits anything on the field (save lands). Was considering something like Dreadbore in this spot but you listed that later so I will get there.
Chromatic Lantern -> Mind Rot: Mind Rot was thrown in after my Wednesday night session where all my discard vanished on me for most of the night and I did a slight tweak. Totally 100% agree Chromatic Lantern is the right call here.
Dreadbore -> Desise: Despise was in the same line of thinking as Mind Rot and other then the fact I'd rather get rid of a planes walker before it hits the board and can be used, I agree the dreadbore is still a better option overall.
Coalition Relic -> Mardu Charm: Mardu Charm I like because of it's versitility. Also it is instant speed duress. I am testing to see if I like it or not. Coalition Relic is still a good call though and I may try and find a slot. One of those good cards I dont have but would not mind tracking one down.
Price of Glory -> Crackling Doom: I kept crackling doom in here over Diabolic Edict because it gets rid of their biggest creature as well, in case they have swarmed the board with dudes. Price of Glory is the perfect anti-control card I wanted and need. Totally forgot about it and another add when I can track one down.
Skeletal Scrying -> Moonlight Bargain: I agree it has been underwhelming. Still not sold on Moonlight bargain either. I may just leave the 3 pay life draw cards in and just take Scrying out. Maybe add Erebos, God of the Dead back in as well.
Sun Titan -> Rakdos Charm: I don't really like the charm and Sun Titan was always on the edge for me. What kept bringing me back is the possibility of him being out after an Armageddon goes off so I can get my lands back. Also I am considering adding Ajani, Caller of the pride (flying and doublestrike seems good) as well as Liliana of the Veil and since they would be Titan targets, he might be worth keeping around? Still not sold on him but as an alternate win-con should I get him out and destroy all lands.
Skullclamp -> Nevinyrral's Disk: I totally agree clamps and bitterblossum are rediculous. I have a judge promo bitterblossum too but it likes to play hide and seek with me and have yet to see it :-/. I grabbed Nevinyrral's Disk for more board clear but after all the games I have played it definately isn't required so I will probably make the list. The Clamps also works with Assemble the Legion.
Chaos Warp -> Sorin, Solemn Visitor: Without general tucking in French I find these tucks less viable. Sorin is in the deck because it turns the 1/1 Fairy or Soldier tokens into 2/1 lifelinkers which seems to help with the Emo Draw that black tends to bring. Not to mention if you can get him to live for two turns his emblem can effectively shut opponents down. I really like that emblem and Sorin usually must be answered giving you time to do other things (gaining 8 off each commander swing is a bonus too)
Darksteel Ingot -> Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker: Ingot is another good mana rock on the consider list. I disagree on Sarkhan though. I have found him extremely useful as a planeswalker killer. Also he is another win-con with Obliterate because he survives as both a planeswalker and creature. His Flamtounge Kavu minus isn't shabby either. Don't care for his ult but that isn't why he is around.
Catastrophe -> Sorin Markov: Never knew about Catastrophe and really like it. In this deck I rarely use his initial minus. The plus for shocks and lifegain mixed with his ult winning games is why he is here. I can see cutting him still though. Mindslaving someone against this deck pretty much spells the end because of how quickly they can be killed with general damage.
Aurelia, the warleader -> Thoughts of ruin: While Aurelia is interesting and I'd consider a slot for her (or gisela blade of goldnight) for sure, I have had good success with thoughts of ruin. I agree its terrible to top deck with no hand, I seem to have it early game when I am holding onto a grip of answers. Dropping turn 4 commander and then clearing away all or most lands on turn 5 has rapped up the game for me so far. It might get removed for Catastrophe which (with mana rocks) will be consistent and better. If I was in magical moneyland I'd be running Ravages of War but that place rejected my visa.
Ajani, Caller of the pride -> Perish the thought: Like other discard options I threw it in to add more revealing of their hand I have mentioned this Ajani before. Still searching for one but totally want to add it once I get it.
Imp's Mischief: I saw that while researching cards and like it although spells cant target themselves so I don't think it can really stop counterspells because unless there is another spell on the stack for it to counter, there are no other viable targets. I think its too situational personnally and would end up as a semi-dead card in hand while you wait for anything to use it on.
Mardu Bannder -> Coldsteel Heart: I realized last night that Coldsteel makes you choose a color last night and immediately replaced it with the banner already. May end up doing Darksteel Ingot because it is also indestructible.
Again thank you for all the suggestions. Lots of good ones and we are definately in the same line of thinking. I am also wondering about Vandalblast. 1 drop artifact removal or 5 drop sweep of all opposing artifacts seems relavant. Decks that ramp with lots of rocks I could hold onto it or use it as spot removal if needed. Unlike my other sweeps it only affects opponents. Who knows if I will find a spot or like it at all in the long run... Just a thought.
@KriggY I didn't see any other Zurgo decks posted but I will look again. I have been considering adding more lands but my brain wonders if adding 2 more lands in total will really fix the problem. Seems like such a small tweek and would require me to cut 2 other items. I will do some tweaking and add some lands. If I add any, I am think 3 more (one of each basic).
+ Chromatic Lantern
+ Skullclamp
+ Aurelia, the Warleader
+ Price of Glory
+ Wear//Tear
+ Ajani, Caller of the Pride
- Coldsteel Heart
- Nevinyrral's Disk
- Disenchant
- Skeletal Scrying
- Thoughts of Ruin
- Despise
Additionally just had some interesting matches against another Anafenza deck(2-1). Board clears for days. Deck is running a lot smoother now (maybe it just needed a few virtual shuffles). Ajani, Caller of the Pride came to immediate use and won me game 3. I had 3 other board clears and probably had the game anyway but being able to end it that turn rather than wait and pray against a topdeck was definitely the way to go.
If you are only playing Markov for the mindslaver effect, then you should just run Mindslaver itself but it is too slow imo (I love mindslave effects, they are incredibly fun believe me, but as a voltron deck I don't think it is necessary).
Sorin, Solemn Visitor, it will be so rare to get both sorin and the token generators at the same time and even if you do get them both, your opponent can shut down sorin with a disenchant or a pithing needle. Even a Whispersilk Cloak or a Steelshaper's Gift is better in my opinion.
Most of the time, you tuck a big thread with Chaos Warp and they get a land or some random mana rock. You can always run Oblivion Ring if you like, but instant speed permanent removal is very appealing, especially with that casting cost.
Moonlight Bargain, going from 0 cards in hand to 4 or 5 is a game changer. You could also run Coercive Portal [as a colourless phyrexian arena in 1 vs 1].
I don't really like board clears that mess up with our mana rocks (Akroma's Vengeance, Planar Cleansing, etc), since LD is something we run, alternative mana producers are quite valuable imo.
URGBOops all my spellsBGRU
URBYoung GrixisBRU
~Commander~
BUDralnu/ReanimatorUB
GRUMaelstroM WanderiNgURG
GBMerengue Clan of SalsaBG
UTalrand PolymorphishU
UAzami, Lady of CAU
BRWZurgo, Worldslayer BearerWRB
BWUMerieke Ri Berit UWB
UVendilion CliqueU
Modern:U Mono-U TroN U
After a lot of configuring I now run much more of a aggro/tempo control version of this deck. Has a good amount of the same cards, but curving out turn 1-3 with high pressure creatures and spells really made a big difference.
Not meant to be negative in any way, happy brewing and good luck So happy we have a RWB commander to play with now in this format (sorry Kalia nobody likes you).
Agree that Moonlight is nice although so far there are games where I am being rushed down and spending 5 mana and 10 life just isnt feasibly responsible. I could get the one answer I need but usually it means I still have to wait until the following turn. I'd rather be forced to use my card draw spells on turns 2-4 and be able to smash the board on turns 4-6. Running a few games with just the 3 sign in blood stuff and I seem to not be needing a topdeck all that frequently. I do like Coercive Portal and run it in other decks. Might include just so I can get that effect more often in this but we will see when I need it.
I don't mind losing my artifacts as much. I mainly like Jokulhaupsing the board so I focus on enchantments, plainswalkers and zurgo which will stay alive and can close the game out from there.
There may be a misconception that this really isn't designed as Voltron. It is more supposed to be control (think Ruhan of the Fomori but in Dega\Mardu). Some rocks are nice to yes ramp because if you can get him out before they have answers great but I'd rather control the board and their hand so that they are reduced to top decking for answers on a limited clock or destroying all mana sources so that even if they do happen to have the answer in hand, they don't have the resources to use it.
- Winds of Rath
- Utter End
- Coercion
- Planar Cleansing
- Mardu Charm
+ Catastrophe
+ March of Souls
+ Swamp
+ Mountain
+ Plains
URGBOops all my spellsBGRU
URBYoung GrixisBRU
~Commander~
BUDralnu/ReanimatorUB
GRUMaelstroM WanderiNgURG
GBMerengue Clan of SalsaBG
UTalrand PolymorphishU
UAzami, Lady of CAU
BRWZurgo, Worldslayer BearerWRB
BWUMerieke Ri Berit UWB
UVendilion CliqueU
Modern:U Mono-U TroN U
- March of Souls
+ Phyrexian Rebirth
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
ie
Since you're running R, you really need to add Magus of the Moon. With it, Land Tax.
You have really high curve and most of your most of your opponent's top bosses are cheaper and more controllish than you. They wouldn't let you have your way of fun.
Duel Commander
URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG
Duel Commander Current Projects:
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx
Created By: DarkNightCavalier
To the cards suggested:
Parallax Wave: I really like this card and it would both lower my curve and let me keep swinging through should they play more blockers. My only worries with it are, it lets my opponents abuse their ebt effects again which I really don't want and it may screw up my curve into an Armageddon type effect. Would not want to have it coming back in a turn if all lands are gone (depending what it is). Will try it out as I have seen this get rid of a small grip of creatures and may help stall long enough that when they get their creatures back I can get a better value wrath and keep swinging which could be game ending.
Faithless Looting: All the yes. Just have to get one. Due to life issues I wasn't playing magic during that set but they are cheap and I have no problem ordering.
Fire Covenant: I sort of like this. It is cheap and can clear multiple utility creatures so I may give it a shot. I think it wouldn't be effective late game as I would take too much damage trying to use it.
Toxic Deluge: As we discussed about this, I will play test it but I don't like any board clear that gets rid of Zurgo on my turn (while he is indestructible). I do like how cheap it is to drop and the only 3 drop wrath I can think of is perish so I will see how this goes.
Enlightened Tutor: I am just going to leave my big bucket of yes... wish I owned one but don't care, definately a card I will look in the case at my LGS or order online to aquire for the deck.
Path to Exile: When I added Swords to Plowshares I was considering adding in Path as well. I don't like that it gives them land making it less effective after a Destructive Force or Geddon. Still 1 drop removal is nice.
Terminate: I like most of my spot removal to be of the X or Y catagory. Look at Mortify, Dreadbore and Hero's Downfall as examples. I would hate to be playing against a heavy control deck and have them as dead draws if I add too many.
Boseiju, Who Shelters All: I agree with this addition as I play with only like 2-3 creatures. I may replace a non-land card with it so it keeps my normal color base flowing.
Magus of the Moon/Blood Moon: I agree adding in more basics could help. I never really liked the Magus because of how easy he is to remove but would he strictly be better than Blood Moon? I'll test out Blood Moon first as it is the one I own.
Land Tax: I really like it and will have to throw it in along with a compliment of basics. Suvives Obliterate effects and pretty much gives me the land race win.
Thank you again guys for you're talk on it and suggestions. I'll be back in a few hours with another change log. Oh and what do you guys think of replacing Destructive force with Burning of Xinye? Since it came out in the new FTV it isn't an arm and a leg anymore. 6cmc vs 7cmc at the cost of 1 damage and 1 less land sac?
Duel Commander
URG [Primer] Maelstrom Wanderer [Primer] URG
Duel Commander Current Projects:
RGWMarath, Will of the WildRGW
BRXMogis, God of SlaughterBRX
RWxIoras, God of VictoryRWx
WBxAthreos, God of PassageWBx
Created By: DarkNightCavalier
IN
Out
Mana color problems are definately cropping up but it hasnt been back breaking yet. It didn't help people are going hard after the white sources. I got to keep testing and I'll update after a few more matches.
I found Faithless Looting to be exellent in this deck, sometimes you have multiple LD or useless spells/lands in hand and you can cicle them with looting.
Chandra, Pyromaster could work well in here; removes utility minions (like aven mindcensor or dark confidant, or even mana dorks), remove annoying blockers or perhaps it can work as a "draw" engine.
I would love to see more spot removal and less big spells
URGBOops all my spellsBGRU
URBYoung GrixisBRU
~Commander~
BUDralnu/ReanimatorUB
GRUMaelstroM WanderiNgURG
GBMerengue Clan of SalsaBG
UTalrand PolymorphishU
UAzami, Lady of CAU
BRWZurgo, Worldslayer BearerWRB
BWUMerieke Ri Berit UWB
UVendilion CliqueU
Modern:U Mono-U TroN U
I love faithless looting in here as well. Added it to my Cockatrice deck, don't have one IRL yet but am searching through friends commons and uncommons trying to find one. Worse case I'll order it online because cheap commons are cheap. Also the flashback helps if I do end up with few cards in hand and don't like my topdecking skills (this is me far too often. My opponents all topdeck like motherf'in champions, I on the other hand have been horrid at it).
I still have Chandra, Pyromancer in my RL deck and she was initially in the deck design. I always seem to have her in hand at the wrong time but I do like her. Also her +1 stops a blocker to allow Zurgo to get through if needed.
I've lowered my curve a bit over the last few days and it is definitely running smoother now. My struggle in adding spot removals comes down to that they would probably have to replace board clears and I'd rather have a board clear than a spot remover in this deck. I will continue to look at spot removals I prefer the ones that can hit different kinds of targets (Mortify as an example). I don't know why it didn't pop into my mind but I should add Vindicate in here. Just as I said I need/want, cheap spot removal that will always have a target.
A couple other card options. I am highly considering Vandalblast so I can clear mana rocks against ramp opponents and against non ramp opponents it can spot remove an artifact for cheap. The other thing I am considering is something along the lines of Sire of Insanity. Might hurt to pitch my hand but it seems if I can force opponents into topdeck mode my odds of winning go up dramatically. Thoughts? Is there cheaper options? Possibly enchantments?
Defense Grid and Pyroclasm/Whipflare/Anger of the Gods effects should be a meta call, lots of U ? Grid and discard should take more relevance; there are more midrange/aggro decks ? Pyroclasm cleans mana dorks like a champ.
I'm using Aven Mindcensor atm, tutors and fetchlands are a common thing in my group.
Also, a bunch of midrange creatures got into my list, the more useful creatures we use the higher the chances are for Zurgo to avoid removal. They can also carry a sword if needed.
URGBOops all my spellsBGRU
URBYoung GrixisBRU
~Commander~
BUDralnu/ReanimatorUB
GRUMaelstroM WanderiNgURG
GBMerengue Clan of SalsaBG
UTalrand PolymorphishU
UAzami, Lady of CAU
BRWZurgo, Worldslayer BearerWRB
BWUMerieke Ri Berit UWB
UVendilion CliqueU
Modern:U Mono-U TroN U
Griselbrand
Ghave, Guru of Spores
Geist of Saint Traft
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Anax and Cymede
Damia, Sage of Stone
Zurgo the Helmsmasher
Anafenza, the Foremost
Rafiq of the Many (infect.. ew)
Top 4
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Damia, Sage of Stone
Griselbrand
Rafiq of the Many
Top 2
Griselbrand/Thalia (they split)
Round 1: Griselbrand 0-2 (This matchup is my roommate but not his deck just one he has been piloting the last few weeks.)
Game 1: I got stuck on 5 land for a while. Had to get cheeky to get red source to cast commander on turn 5. (Tap my 4 lands, crack ghost quarters destroying my own plains to get a mountain, tap mountain, play Zurgo and swing. Needless to say he was suprised and a bit pissed without a response in hand). Unfortunately he ripped a Toxic Deluge (value town card as it is, kinda uber against Zurgo since 2 life kills him) and I never drew another land all game. When he finally started getting in for damage with Griselbrand he had to cast it for 18. So the kill\wrath spells were there in full force but without the lands or planeswalkers to abuse the turns of stalling.
Game 2: I could not topdeck to save my life this game. Both early hand disruptions to rip 2 of his mana rocks, he top decked into another and kept the ramp. I topdeck Austere Command turn 5 with 5 open mana and 2 cards in hand. He goes and I get Stupify'd (he confessed to ripping it off the top like a boss) and he casts Griselbrand. Didn't draw an answer and he got game 2.
Round 2: Ghave, Guru of Spores 2-0
Game 1: Opening hand was 4 lands, Wrath of God, Damnation and Thoughtseize and I was on the play. Thoughtseize showed he had no hand disruption and 1 kill spell. Mana dork and other small dudes in hand. I wiped the board turn 4, zurgo turn 5 and then wipe blockers off the board turn 6. He killed Zurgo turn 6 but I had been drawing ample mana so recast turn 7 to swing in for game.
Game 2: Turn 3 Blood Moon after he reclamation sage'd one of my mana rocks. He was stuck on a swamp (and a bunch of mountains :p) for the rest of the game. Assemble the Legion, Sorin, Solemn Visitor and Ajani Vengant. Game Over
Round 3: Geist of Saint Traft 0-2
Game 1: Counter-spells for days. I never drew enough mana to possible cast 2 spells a turn and getting 1 through. Managed to get geist offboard early with Council of Judgement and he never replayed him. Elspeth Sun's Champion got there in the end though.
Game 2: This game was a lot closer. Early Defensive Grid (in place for Price of Glory in my RL deck. REALLY like it and does the work against these control decks). Unfortunately he dropped Big Papa Jace with blocker protection before I could Zurgo and Armageddon the board (had it in hand and was just waiting for the play). Eventually I had to settle for routing the board and then casting Armageddon. He was a bit hard up on lands early in the game but with Jace Brainstorming every turn he was starting to catch back up. I had a land left in hand (Volrath's Stronghold), mana rock in play and Sad Bot in graveyard. This definately worked to my advantage in the end. The main problem I had this game is all the self harm my deck did to me (pay life for cards). Out of 30 life, he did a total of 10 damage by the end of the game. It was necessary evil but it did hurt in the long run.
All in all, my RL deck is missing crucial pieces and still has a higher curve than I'd like but the pattern of matchups seems to hold true for me. Control deck (and I usually get mana screwed match 1 on the night), Creature deck (which I roflstomp and get perfect hands), Control deck (This Geist player runs many more counters than most and likes to "always have a counter in hand"). Still a fun night as usual. Love defensive grid and will leave it in. Gonna add Coercive Portal as well. The games I got Phyrexian Arena to stick really helped and I think more consistent CA will help. Also might run Underworld Connections and add Erebos, God of the Dead back in.
@Lexandur I am currently running Anger of the Gods and Volcanic Fallout and both are doing the work in my meta. Seems to be enough mana dorks or cheap creatures I need to remove (like geist). Aven Mindcensor might find a spot, however it does seem my group is more prone to dig rather than tutor. We do have our fair share of fetchlands but I don't know if there would be enough to warrant it. I agree with your list of midrange creatures added and may try and find some slots for them (though as I put in the original post, Bob is out of my price range), been thinking of Grand Abolisher for a while because... screw counters.
I'd also like to note that based on the decks people were playing, I think I pulled some tough matchups against this deck. Would have loved to play Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Anax and Cymede or Anafenza, the Foremost as I think my deck would have a good advantage with all the board scrubbers. That is what it is. I will keep tinkering and hopefully play a bit more tonight and post the results.
I have the same problem, card draw [it can either solve your land issue or draw disruption]. Underworld Connections is very counter-intuitive, isn't it ?
What about Ajani Vengeant ? how was his performance ?
I'm having second thoughts about Assemble the Legion, I always thought it was a dead draw late game and expensive for the early game but it can grind out certain decks.
I think we should prioritize hand disruption over anything else, stripping counterspells and removal before slaming zurgo on the table is vital imo.
What do you think of Hypnotic Specter and Blazing Specter ?
URGBOops all my spellsBGRU
URBYoung GrixisBRU
~Commander~
BUDralnu/ReanimatorUB
GRUMaelstroM WanderiNgURG
GBMerengue Clan of SalsaBG
UTalrand PolymorphishU
UAzami, Lady of CAU
BRWZurgo, Worldslayer BearerWRB
BWUMerieke Ri Berit UWB
UVendilion CliqueU
Modern:U Mono-U TroN U
I have been on the fence about Underworld Connections for that exact reason and have yet to try it out. My thought process being that if you do not need to tap out that turn, you could then draw an extra card at EOT. Still unsure but it is a card draw source that is repeatable for sure.
Defensive Grid has performed a lot better than I expected. It is usually obvious when there is a counter in hand as they have to leave 5-6 mana open. Most people aren't willing to commit that much for the chance to counter something. Also might make Mana Tithe (which I finally found amongst my stuff to add in) all that more viable (and I think it still might be viable because people don't exactly expect counters out of these colors).
I agree hand disruption is a necessity. My main issue currently is drawing any. I have tried several matches where I maximized the early disruption spells at the cost of the rest of the deck and it still doesn’t seem to work as well. Tend to draw into them late game when you need removal for things already on board.
The specter’s may be worth trying. I don’t like hypnotic specter as much because it gives them a turn to drop a blocker or use removal after untaping. I like blazing specter for the haste but his CMC seems a bit high for the cost of 1 card.
Ajani Vengeant has been really good. Useing him to keep things like griselbrand, maze of ith, cabal coffers, gaes cradle, and any other ramp tapped, spot removal and lifegain for utility creatures. In a longer drawn out game where you can pop his ult, generally gg. He is also low enough in CMC to keep me happy with his performance. How has your experience with him been if you are running him?
I did add Sire of Insanity and it is an absolute house. Even resolving for 1 turn seems to hose counter control matchups as they typically seem to topdeck a counterspell (useless as they have to pitch it at EOT, a bounce (removes him but then you just recast and trololol), a draw spell (hoping to topdeck both counterspell and bounce to keep you from recasting). Maybe a cure for the hand disruption might be some tutors or something to get him out more regularly (recursion). Thinking along the lines of Buried Alive with things like Animate Dead sprinkled in, Stupify is pretty good so I may try adding that. Also what typically happens for me against the counter decks is they have SO much draw that they end up getting back to their counters anyway :-/. I think finding a consistent way to force discard and the Specters might help with that. Additionally, what are your thoughts on Spirit of the Labyrinth to keep others from getting CA on you?
In my test Academy Rector has been a house as well. The fact you prime your own removal with the board sweeps can set up some early enchantment plays. Assemble the Legion has been solid for me as a finisher most games as it seems to be stapled to my Sorin, Solemn Visitor. With all the self hate in the deck, the life gain has been pretty good value.
With the weekend more tweaks will be on their way. I will probably be online tonight to continue testing. Thanks for your input. All in all most people in my group have expressed their frustrations as this deck improves (a good thing). Most of them are pretty experienced and as they peruse the decklist see the strengths it has and hate that it sometimes requires them to fetch a very specific answer which sometimes doesn’t help in the end. (removing on their turn just to have Zurgo drop in for another 7 because they were not left with enough mana to remove AND leave a blocker on field). Rogue’s Passage is also usually followed by an eye roll as they scramble to find removal in time.
IRL I ran a Vault of the Archangel and it was a nice compliment for the lifegain mostly. When this deck does have board state (and Zurgo isn’t on board or adequate removal isn’t in hand) it has been nice to get the lifelink when needed.
Final card for thought that just came to mind. Stoneshaker Shaman. Early enough to possibly get past a counterspell, they either have to use removal on it or will tap out every turn. If they leave themselves untapped and take the sac'd land it gives you a big indicator they are planning something. Not a perfect solution by far (and I wish it was an enchantment and not a creature).
I love price of glory to grind out those pesky control decks, I have played against that enchantment and it is not very funny lol (exept for the red player).
I thought about Vault of the Archangel before, a must have vs aggro metas but I'm already using Sunhome, Rogue's Passage along with Maze of Ith and I don't want to struggle with my mana base more than I have to. Maybe I will replace sunhome with vault, which reminds me that I need to get my hands on enlightment tutor, academy rector and an urborg.
Spirit of the Labyrinth can do wonders with dark confidant and other midrange creatures, I like the direction the deck is heading.
URGBOops all my spellsBGRU
URBYoung GrixisBRU
~Commander~
BUDralnu/ReanimatorUB
GRUMaelstroM WanderiNgURG
GBMerengue Clan of SalsaBG
UTalrand PolymorphishU
UAzami, Lady of CAU
BRWZurgo, Worldslayer BearerWRB
BWUMerieke Ri Berit UWB
UVendilion CliqueU
Modern:U Mono-U TroN U
I don't know if I'd replace Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion because doublestrike is still value since it reduces you to a 2 turn clock (and for the most part is uncounterable) but I agree that Vault of the Archangel would probably need to replace it. I think it is a preference call. I think Vault of the Archangel works better because your tokens become valuable as well and the doublestrike is really only good with Zuro.
I like the direction its heading as well. I am currently sorting through all my cards in an effort to get re-organized and will post anything else I find that is interesting.
Spirit of the Labyrinth also encourages us to use Underworld Connections and Erebos, God of the Dead. Also we can get spirit of the Labyrinth with any of the enchantment tutors we have. With all the enchantments creeping into the deck, maybe there are some enchantment tutors that might make the cut (or Replenish?). Another card for thought, Dark Tutelage instead (or in addition to) of Dark Confidant? Honestly part of the appeal of Dark Confidant is we can wipe it away when it becomes too dangerous (but also its downside in that it can be removed easily). Dark Tutelage is also another enchantment which can be fetched with enchantment tutors and survives Jokulhaups when you are wanting to get CA to win the land race (if you couldn't establish a win-con before board wiping).