I'm looking for some feedback as I'm kinda stuck on what to change to get it more powerful. This deck is build around Lazav and the main idea is to mill/remove cards from the opponent hand and library in order to get Lazav more powerful and to get creatures that gets bigger based on the graveyards. As you can understand, decking out an opponent isn't my first strategy for winning but it can be done using the different cards on my deck. This deck will mainly be played against multiple opponents but I would think it can be used in a 1 on 1 scenario too.
Thank you very much for your answer svdormolen. Really appreciated!
Here's my thought on your input:
Mirko Vosk, Mind Drinker: While Mirko is a great creature and a big threat to deal with, it has one big issue: it has to hit the player! It has flying, yes, but still the card can be the target of spells and can be blocked by flying creatures. Lazav, Dimir Mastermind may seem like less of a threat but this creature as my commander has one big advantage other than copying every creatures that goes to an opponent's graveyard: it's hexproof by default. Meaning that other than a board wipe, it can stay on the board and keep getting better over time when milling the opponents.
Keep in mind, my goal in this deck is not to deck out any opponents, it's to mill their cards to get those big, harsh and tough creatures and to copy them with Lazav or the reanimator cards I have. Decking out someone with 100 cards is too much to ask and too slow. Regardless, I will sure keep in mind that Mirko could do a great commander and might even perform some tests with him up front!
Geth, Lord of the Vault: That was a hard one to cut... I recently removed it to put Erebos, God of the Dead instead. I kinda agree that this card must have its place on the deck but the reason I cut it was its CMC. A bit too big for my taste.
True-Name Nemesis: Been thinking about removing this one, due in part by your main point; this card is only good in 1on1. Still, I sometimes play this deck 1on1 sooooo... I don't know, really!
Oona, Queen of the Fae: Great card, didn't get my attention before but now that you mention it, sure looks like lots of fun! Problem, again, is its CMC. As the group of people I play with tend to have more aggro decks than anything else, it's kinda hard to put this kind of creature into play.
Pongify: Interesting school of thought but here again, its CMC of 1 is a great plus! Sure, a 3/3 token can be an edge for an opponent but removing any threat (including black and artifact creatures) is a must in my deck. This card, including Rapid Hybridization, has saved me more times that I can think of. Curse of the Swine is a great card but again, its CMC is a show stopper for me. Also, as this card is a sorcery, it loses my interest a bit for a spot removal.
Daze: This one will (hopefully) be replaced by my incoming Mana Drain. Hard to use in a situation where my opponent has all its lands tapped.
Glimpse the Unthinkable: Here again, its CMC is a big plus; milling 10 cards for UB is a big plus for me. It has a one time use, agreed, and can only target one player, but I find its use pretty polyvalent.
So, you said you wanted to say more? PLEASE DO! I'm dying for input and I really like your ideas. I would love to hear more from you.
Great deck so far! Mill is tough but can be done. I've made a few mill decks and I've found that adding in G was super worth it, especially in an aggressive meta. It give you access to ramp and big finishers like Lord of Extinction and The Mimeoplasm. (You can see mine in my sig if you're interested)
Thanks for the reply MikeCline83, it's appreciated!
Although I agree that there are some great cards in G, that would mean a complete rewrite of my deck as I would like to stay in a two color deck. Maybe in a near future, I will change my mind and try something else but for now, I will concentrate on a UB deck. Thanks though!
After second thoughts, I kept Talisman of Dominance for its 2CMC; with 40hp, 1hp for a mana is negligible.
Same goes for Oona, Queen of the Fae, after re-reading it, I realized that cards milled this way gets exiled; not really what I'm looking for with Lazav, Dimir Mastermind as there might be some really good cards that gets milled that way. The same can be said about Leyline of the Void.
Please keep the ideas comming! If you think I'm mistaken somewhere in my line of thoughts, please let me know too. I'm always ready to learn new ways of playing! Thanks!
You're right about the game pace being a bit slower in EDH. That being said, I still want a fast deck to destroy my opponents before they destroy me!
Your second post brings a lot of question to me... I'm pretty sure you're right about the mana ramping but I'm already having a hard time selecting which card to replace and putting another 5 cards in there seems impossible to me. That would mean removing some key cards in order to add more ramping. While I agree that it will help a lot, I looked at my current mana curve and I see that most of my spells are in the 1 to 5 CMC to cast. Do I really need the 5 additional cards even if this deck has a "low" mana curve (from my point of view)? Should I lower the numbers of lands from 38 to 36 (already tried that one and I had some issues I must say) to make some additional space?
I have re-read Curse of the Swine and I must say, it is a pretty good card. The fact that it's a sorcery bother me a lot, so does the fact that the cards gets exiled (and usually, when "spot removing" a creature, I want Lazav to become that creature!). You're right though about the fact that it removes any indestructible creatures so it's a big plus for me. I will add it to my next order and see how it plays.
I don't understand why I haven't changed Sword of Body and Mind instead of Glimpse the Unthinkable earlier! Seems like a no-brainer now that you guys have said it. Must be related to the actual price I paid for Glimpse...
Mesmeric Orb is in fact a card that I already own and while I understand your point, it bothers me to see all my good cards going as soon as I untap permanents. I guess I don't like tasting my own medicine!
Regarding the graveyard hate, I have just changed Evil Twin for Dimir Doppelganger to exile cards once the latest is on the board. It cleans the graveyard AND exile cards. Still, does cards like Kozilek, Butcher of Truth and Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre actually goes into the graveyard prior to get back into the opponent's library? Or as a state base effect, it doesn't even touch the graveyard?
About Withered Wretch, I already own it so it might go into my sideboard for testing purposes
Keening Stone might seem harsh at first, but rarely does it make any real damage to an opponent (from what I have played yet). It usually doesn't stay more than 1-2 turns and gets destroyed.
I have played this deck about 10-12 times in its first form, mostly in multiplayer games (3-4-5 opponents) and I can see that it has a lot of potential. As I'm not the center of attention at first, it gives me the time to prepare a bit and counter early menaces. Lazav is the first big card that must get on the board, then the rest unfolds by itself. This is the exact same moment where this deck gets all the attention from the opponents!! Win/loss ratio is about 8/3 on for multi.
Playing in 1on1 was a mess and I understand why; it was not meant to be played that way. I don't even plan to play it anymore in 1on1 as I think these games aren't as fun as multi, IMO. Win/loss ratio is about 2/4.
I think Orb is a must. But final decision is up to you, of course
Interesting, I do agree that milling myself versus milling all my opponents for each untaped permanent is a big advantage. Add all the reanimator cards I already have (ReanimateAnimate DeadNecromancyDimir Doppelganger), it is a great addition.
I can understand where you're coming from, basically you're afraid your deck won't work as well if not all of the cards work towards one of the main goals. Keep in mind that support is just as important as finishing of your opponent. Support isn't just limited to a counterspell here and a spot removal there, it starts at the mana base and ends with mass-removal (this is my really belligerent opinion anyways :-)). So if the support of your deck is in order, the rest will follow suit. That means sometimes you have to cut in "live" cards to make the rest work better or be more powerfull.
You made me realize something; I do not have a lot of creatures helping me that does not need my opponent's graveyards. Most, if not all, of my creatures benefits from the graveyards around me so at the start of a game, where there are no cards, I'm pretty much powerless.
You should not cut any land cards. 38 is perfect for this deck. So, what cards to cut? (in my opinion):
That was my understanding, 38 seems about right.
- Dark Ritual: A one time card that will be a dead draw if you don't get it in your opening hand.
You're right about this one. I played tonight and had it in my starting hand. I've won the game with this card still in my hand...
- Twincast: Not enough viable targets. You have quite some Instants and Sorceries but alot of them don't have a use when copied.
I like the versatility of this one as I can use it against a counterspell to counter it. It can be used for many more things too.
- Mind Twist: Not really for this deck, I would sooner play a Syphon Mind wich gives you card advantage as well.
- Thoughtseize: A nice card in Standard or Modern, but it just doesn't do enough here to warrant a slot.
Those two can help me getting cards out for Lazav but they do target only one opponent. They might be the next ones to go...
- Tunnel Vision: High CMC and not a stable enabler. Unless of course, you know what's on the bottom of his deck.
Good points here. I have just replaced a Swamp by Rogue's Passage. Now I can't wait to play with my new deck! Thanks again svdormolen, I'll keep this tread updated with my results.
I actually used to have a Lazav mill deck quite similiar to yours and recently switched over to Mirko. Best decision I ever made for this deck, because it solves two major problems the deck used to have. For one, Lazav is really great the first time you cast him. You get him for 4 mana, then next turn maybe you cast traumatize and turn him into the best creature in your opponent's deck. But then the board gets wiped and he dies, and suddenly you have to pay six mana to recast a creature that ALSO needs another enabler to actually do something. I found myself playing Lazav more and more infrequently as games went on.
The second problem was that when mill is not your wincon, many milling cards become dead draws later in the game. If you're in top deck mode and the enemy has a better board position than you, you want to draw your Rise of the Dark Realms to use the graveyards that are already stacked - you don't want to draw Traumatize, which does nothing but set you up for an even better Rise a few turns later.
Mirko solves these two problems rather elegantly. He can actually be your only mill card in the deck - as he is the commander, you will have reliable access to him. Since you don't want to win by milling, all you really need is hit an enemy once or twice in the beginning. This fast-tracks the process of filling the enemy's graveyard, which will otherwise be woefully empty in the early game. Even if Mirko never hits someone again, he has already enabled cards like Wrexial, Rise of the Dark Realms, Consuming Aberration and many more by giving them plenty of fodder. That way, you can stack your entire deck with cards that use the enemy's graveyard, and devote only a single card to filling it.
It does mean that you can get unlucky and have Mirko tucked, which sucks. However, it's not the end of the world because graveyards will still grow during the normal course of the game and you can play cards like Decree of Pain to keep yourself safe while killing things.
(as an aside, if you do actually want to win via mill I think Phenax is your best bet - but you have to build the deck around him. If you do, he can mill like crazy.)
Thanks for the feedback Zordrath. You're bringing new pieces to the puzzle and I like that. I understand the problematic with the current commander but so far, one of my best way of winning with this deck is by using the commander and its morphing ability. I really don't know what I should do but I realized that the only way of dealing with this deck (and any deck, really) is to play with it. I'll keep your arguments in mind and might play with Mirko as my main commander in a futur match, just for the sake of it.
Yeah, you certainly should play Lazav yourself before taking my word for it. If he turns out to work well for you, then all the better He's a really unique creature and actually brought me back into Commander after a long hiatus because I really wanted to build a deck around him. Switching him out for the less exciting Mirko was painful, though it turned out for the best of the deck. If you don't run into the same problems I did, great!
I'm looking for some feedback as I'm kinda stuck on what to change to get it more powerful. This deck is build around Lazav and the main idea is to mill/remove cards from the opponent hand and library in order to get Lazav more powerful and to get creatures that gets bigger based on the graveyards. As you can understand, decking out an opponent isn't my first strategy for winning but it can be done using the different cards on my deck. This deck will mainly be played against multiple opponents but I would think it can be used in a 1 on 1 scenario too.
Here's the decklist. All feedback welcome!
1 Bad River
1 Command Tower
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Darkwater Catacombs
1 Dimir Aqueduct
1 Dimir Guildgate
1 Drowned Catacomb
9 Island
1 Jwar Isle Refuge
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Nephalia Drownyard
1 Salt Marsh
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Sunken Ruins
8 Swamp
1 Tainted Isle
1 Temple of Deceit
1 Temple of the False God
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Underground River
1 Underground Sea
1 Vesuva
1 Watery Grave
Instant
1 Pact of Negation
1 Brainstorm
1 Dark Ritual
1 Pongify
1 Rapid Hybridization
1 Counterspell
1 Mana Drain
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Go for the Throat
1 Mana Drain
1 Twincast
1 Dismember
1 Hinder
1 Spell Crumple
1 Cryptic Command
1 Memory Plunder
1 Force of Will
1 Spin into Myth
Sorceries
1 Mind Twist
1 Reanimate
1 Thoughtseize
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mind Grind
1 Mind Funeral
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Traumatize
1 Life's Finale
1 Tunnel Vision
1 Animate Dead
1 Memory Erosion
1 Necromancy
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Control Magic
Artifact
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Dimir Signet
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Mindcrank
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Whispersilk Cloak
1 Bonehoard
1 Keening Stone
Creatures
1 Wight of Precinct Six
1 Nighthowler
1 Thassa, God of the Sea
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
1 Evil Twin
1 Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
1 Mortivore
1 Sakashima the Impostor
1 Sewer Nemesis
1 Body Double
1 Consuming Aberration
1 Guiltfeeder
1 Mirko Vosk, Mind Drinker
1 Nemesis of Reason
1 Phenax, God of Deception
1 Geth, Lord of the Vault
1 Avatar of Woe
Planeswalker
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Jace, Memory Adept
1 Liliana Vess
1 Daze
1 Despise
1 Increasing Confusion
1 Distress
1 Glimpse the Unthinkable
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Mask of Riddles
1 Duskmantle Guildmage
1 Swiftfoot Boots
1 Sands of Delirium
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Archive Trap
Here's my thought on your input:
Mirko Vosk, Mind Drinker: While Mirko is a great creature and a big threat to deal with, it has one big issue: it has to hit the player! It has flying, yes, but still the card can be the target of spells and can be blocked by flying creatures. Lazav, Dimir Mastermind may seem like less of a threat but this creature as my commander has one big advantage other than copying every creatures that goes to an opponent's graveyard: it's hexproof by default. Meaning that other than a board wipe, it can stay on the board and keep getting better over time when milling the opponents.
Keep in mind, my goal in this deck is not to deck out any opponents, it's to mill their cards to get those big, harsh and tough creatures and to copy them with Lazav or the reanimator cards I have. Decking out someone with 100 cards is too much to ask and too slow. Regardless, I will sure keep in mind that Mirko could do a great commander and might even perform some tests with him up front!
Geth, Lord of the Vault: That was a hard one to cut... I recently removed it to put Erebos, God of the Dead instead. I kinda agree that this card must have its place on the deck but the reason I cut it was its CMC. A bit too big for my taste.
True-Name Nemesis: Been thinking about removing this one, due in part by your main point; this card is only good in 1on1. Still, I sometimes play this deck 1on1 sooooo... I don't know, really!
Oona, Queen of the Fae: Great card, didn't get my attention before but now that you mention it, sure looks like lots of fun! Problem, again, is its CMC. As the group of people I play with tend to have more aggro decks than anything else, it's kinda hard to put this kind of creature into play.
Talisman of Dominance: Great point, I will bring this modification for sure.
Pongify: Interesting school of thought but here again, its CMC of 1 is a great plus! Sure, a 3/3 token can be an edge for an opponent but removing any threat (including black and artifact creatures) is a must in my deck. This card, including Rapid Hybridization, has saved me more times that I can think of. Curse of the Swine is a great card but again, its CMC is a show stopper for me. Also, as this card is a sorcery, it loses my interest a bit for a spot removal.
Daze: This one will (hopefully) be replaced by my incoming Mana Drain. Hard to use in a situation where my opponent has all its lands tapped.
Glimpse the Unthinkable: Here again, its CMC is a big plus; milling 10 cards for UB is a big plus for me. It has a one time use, agreed, and can only target one player, but I find its use pretty polyvalent.
So, you said you wanted to say more? PLEASE DO! I'm dying for input and I really like your ideas. I would love to hear more from you.
That being said, it can still be done in UB.
A couple of cards that you may want to consider:
Mesmeric Orb
Helm of Obedience (silly combo with Leyline of the Void)
Sword of Body and Mind
Wrexial, the Risen Deep - Expensive cmc but it gives you free spells so it kind of pays for itself..
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon, the Destroyer of Darksteel
BGW Teneb, the Harvester, my Pimped Out Reanimator
GUB The Mimeoplasm Ooze-Mill
GWU Rafiq the Exalted
Although I agree that there are some great cards in G, that would mean a complete rewrite of my deck as I would like to stay in a two color deck. Maybe in a near future, I will change my mind and try something else but for now, I will concentrate on a UB deck. Thanks though!
I took advice on your idea about Sword of Body and Mind and removed Glimpse the Unthinkable instead. The 10 cards milling effect will occur more than once this way.
Other than that, I have only removed True-Name Nemesis and replaced it with Geth, Lord of the Vault as it has its place in that deck.
After second thoughts, I kept Talisman of Dominance for its 2CMC; with 40hp, 1hp for a mana is negligible.
Same goes for Oona, Queen of the Fae, after re-reading it, I realized that cards milled this way gets exiled; not really what I'm looking for with Lazav, Dimir Mastermind as there might be some really good cards that gets milled that way. The same can be said about Leyline of the Void.
Please keep the ideas comming! If you think I'm mistaken somewhere in my line of thoughts, please let me know too. I'm always ready to learn new ways of playing! Thanks!
You're right about the game pace being a bit slower in EDH. That being said, I still want a fast deck to destroy my opponents before they destroy me!
Your second post brings a lot of question to me... I'm pretty sure you're right about the mana ramping but I'm already having a hard time selecting which card to replace and putting another 5 cards in there seems impossible to me. That would mean removing some key cards in order to add more ramping. While I agree that it will help a lot, I looked at my current mana curve and I see that most of my spells are in the 1 to 5 CMC to cast. Do I really need the 5 additional cards even if this deck has a "low" mana curve (from my point of view)? Should I lower the numbers of lands from 38 to 36 (already tried that one and I had some issues I must say) to make some additional space?
I have re-read Curse of the Swine and I must say, it is a pretty good card. The fact that it's a sorcery bother me a lot, so does the fact that the cards gets exiled (and usually, when "spot removing" a creature, I want Lazav to become that creature!). You're right though about the fact that it removes any indestructible creatures so it's a big plus for me. I will add it to my next order and see how it plays.
I don't understand why I haven't changed Sword of Body and Mind instead of Glimpse the Unthinkable earlier! Seems like a no-brainer now that you guys have said it. Must be related to the actual price I paid for Glimpse...
Mesmeric Orb is in fact a card that I already own and while I understand your point, it bothers me to see all my good cards going as soon as I untap permanents. I guess I don't like tasting my own medicine!
Regarding the graveyard hate, I have just changed Evil Twin for Dimir Doppelganger to exile cards once the latest is on the board. It cleans the graveyard AND exile cards. Still, does cards like Kozilek, Butcher of Truth and Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre actually goes into the graveyard prior to get back into the opponent's library? Or as a state base effect, it doesn't even touch the graveyard?
About Withered Wretch, I already own it so it might go into my sideboard for testing purposes
Keening Stone might seem harsh at first, but rarely does it make any real damage to an opponent (from what I have played yet). It usually doesn't stay more than 1-2 turns and gets destroyed.
I have played this deck about 10-12 times in its first form, mostly in multiplayer games (3-4-5 opponents) and I can see that it has a lot of potential. As I'm not the center of attention at first, it gives me the time to prepare a bit and counter early menaces. Lazav is the first big card that must get on the board, then the rest unfolds by itself. This is the exact same moment where this deck gets all the attention from the opponents!! Win/loss ratio is about 8/3 on for multi.
Playing in 1on1 was a mess and I understand why; it was not meant to be played that way. I don't even plan to play it anymore in 1on1 as I think these games aren't as fun as multi, IMO. Win/loss ratio is about 2/4.
Interesting, I do agree that milling myself versus milling all my opponents for each untaped permanent is a big advantage. Add all the reanimator cards I already have (Reanimate Animate Dead Necromancy Dimir Doppelganger), it is a great addition.
You made me realize something; I do not have a lot of creatures helping me that does not need my opponent's graveyards. Most, if not all, of my creatures benefits from the graveyards around me so at the start of a game, where there are no cards, I'm pretty much powerless.
That was my understanding, 38 seems about right.
You're right about this one. I played tonight and had it in my starting hand. I've won the game with this card still in my hand...
I like the versatility of this one as I can use it against a counterspell to counter it. It can be used for many more things too.
Those two can help me getting cards out for Lazav but they do target only one opponent. They might be the next ones to go...
I have a lot of cards to support Tunnel Vision: Spin into myth, Spell Crumple, Hinder, Jace, the mind sculptor. While Decking out an opponent is pretty rare, it is still an interesting win condition that always comes up as a surprise.
Now that is interesting! I will replace it for sure!
For the record, I have played 3 games tonight: lost 2 to Grand Arbiter Augustin IV because he is a real PITA and won the other one because I had Sword of body and mind attached to a double strike creature with Consuming Aberration out, adding 20 to it each turn!
Thanks again for the input! I still have a lot to learn with this deck so yeah, I'm always open to suggestions.
Dark Ritual -> Phyrexian Metamorph More flexibility here
Mind Twist -> Expedition Map Nice Land fetching combo for those hard times
Vesuva -> Academy Ruins See above
Control Magic -> Confiscate I want your Planeswalker!
Bad River -> Volrath's Stronghold If I ever mill my own creatures.
Thoughtseize -> Mesmeric Orb Still not 100% convinced but now I've put the infrastructure to back me up on this one.
Rogue's Passage: I already have Shizo, Death's Storehouse that does the job a bit, might even add Mask of Riddles for the added draw effect but I don't want to remove a land for it.
The second problem was that when mill is not your wincon, many milling cards become dead draws later in the game. If you're in top deck mode and the enemy has a better board position than you, you want to draw your Rise of the Dark Realms to use the graveyards that are already stacked - you don't want to draw Traumatize, which does nothing but set you up for an even better Rise a few turns later.
Mirko solves these two problems rather elegantly. He can actually be your only mill card in the deck - as he is the commander, you will have reliable access to him. Since you don't want to win by milling, all you really need is hit an enemy once or twice in the beginning. This fast-tracks the process of filling the enemy's graveyard, which will otherwise be woefully empty in the early game. Even if Mirko never hits someone again, he has already enabled cards like Wrexial, Rise of the Dark Realms, Consuming Aberration and many more by giving them plenty of fodder. That way, you can stack your entire deck with cards that use the enemy's graveyard, and devote only a single card to filling it.
It does mean that you can get unlucky and have Mirko tucked, which sucks. However, it's not the end of the world because graveyards will still grow during the normal course of the game and you can play cards like Decree of Pain to keep yourself safe while killing things.
(as an aside, if you do actually want to win via mill I think Phenax is your best bet - but you have to build the deck around him. If you do, he can mill like crazy.)