So I finally got my superfriends cards in the mail and I'm trying an experiment on how to put the deck together.
Instead of finishing my list before ordering cards, this time I'm taking the long way and making the list as I play with it (like you are "supposed" to.) So the idea is Superfriends, with tokens and control, with a bit of proliferation. I do have a retaliation theme (I tend to retaliate in game, and Mind Twist and Rakdo's Return are some of the most evil cards out there.)(This was cut)
I realized this deck wants to play as a control deck.
Ramp and control until you drop PWs as a source of advantage. You want to pay 3 types of planeswalkers. Those who deal with problems/defend themselves; those who general tokens; and those that provide CA over time. I got to ult Nicol Bolas twice on the same dude. I could have ulted Venser (I'd start exiling my stuff pretty quickly after though) and Ajani 100 life (who needs life though) I ulted Ral (got two extra turs and that + Conntagion engine allowed so many ults) I ulted Garruk, Apex Predator and just so much crazies.
It's a fun deck. But apart from ramp, CA, removal, and counters, I feel like the deck shouldn't play non planeswalker non land cards. Inexorable Tide felt win more. Genesis Wave too. Spread the sickness is too expensive. I need to be more color concious (double colored mana costs are harsh at times.)
What about Vraska has been under-performing for you? Every time she comes up in my meta she is a total house.
She draws so much attention that I guess it can be a double-edged sword, but most of the time opponents just squander resources all day trying to keep her from ulting.
While it isn't a planeswalker I think Gilder Bairn is probably worth checking out.
What about Vraska has been under-performing for you? Every time she comes up in my meta she is a total house.
She draws so much attention that I guess it can be a double-edged sword, but most of the time opponents just squander resources all day trying to keep her from ulting.
While it isn't a planeswalker I think Gilder Bairn is probably worth checking out.
So stupid curse ate my post.
TL;DR: Updated deck, will post updates soonish. Vraska has been doing much better, I quite like her now, although I don't think I've ever gotten use out of anything but her -3. She works Wonderfully with Venser, just like Liliana and Jace tend to work well together. I don't really like Gilder Bairn.
I'm thinking Ajani Steadfast and Rings of Brighthart will not make it into the deck. I feel like 2 Ajanis is enough and I don't like his +1 and his -2 is basically a worse proliferate. I don't see him ever ulting. Rings of Brighthart, like the Bairn are essentially win more cards. If I've got planeswalkers sticking they are decent, otherwise they don't do anything (I do give a bit more credit to the Rings tough). I cut Innexorable Tide for the same reason.
I'd recommended more card draw and tutor's for consistency.
Where's baby Jace? He's a great political tool. And how has Lilly of the Dark Realms been fairing? I cant imagine too well, perhaps replace here? Or atleast include an Urborg. Her dependacy on Swamps is hard to utilize in 5 color.
My biggest interest is in commander choice. Why Child? He doesnt play nice with your Super Freiends. Any of the the other 5 color legends seem better. Particular favorites are:
I'd recommended more card draw and tutor's for consistency.
Where's baby Jace? He's a great political tool. And how has Lilly of the Dark Realms been fairing? I cant imagine too well, perhaps replace here? Or atleast include an Urborg. Her dependacy on Swamps is hard to utilize in 5 color.
My biggest interest is in commander choice. Why Child? He doesnt play nice with your Super Freiends. Any of the the other 5 color legends seem better. Particular favorites are:
I don't really like tutors. Card draw is something missing, but I can't see myself putting enough non permanent based card draw to make a difference and permanent (non planeswalker) based card draw will just end up colateral damage to my spells. The PWs are my source of repeatable CA even if it's isn't draw. I've already got quite a few jaces (3 IIRC) and so I don't want to add another. I don't actually like baby jace as a form of CA (he could be decent with venser I guess). I really don't like that he gives others extra draw*. Lili of the dark realms has actually been doing fine. I've been mostly using her as a way to hit my land drops consistently (she is disgustingly good with JtMS) and I've yet to use her as removal or to use her ult. I do like her with the shocks.
* I think I play this deck differently than most superfriends. First, I usually mulligan away any planewalkers in my opening hand. I tend not to drop them early (unlike the other superfriends deck I saw, he played one on turn 4). I try to stay back as much as possible, and reserve my cards as much as possible. When the board has been wiped a few times, the commanders cost a bit and the players have all been beating on each other (and I'm out of remvoal) I play any planeswalker able to defend itself, followed by those that generate CA. I do that and play the ones that remove stuff whenever I need to. This tends to prevent much retaliation. Usually the first few bite the dust but by that point the table can't deal with more than 3 in a row. Then I take over and play archenemy. People are usually in topdeck mode (my enchantment and artifact wipe tends to get rid of all the phyrexian arenas type cards.
This must affect the way I evaluate planeswalkers.
When Chandra, Pyromaster essentially doubles my draw while everyone is in topdeck mode, I'm happy. When Liliana of the Dark Realms makes me hit my land drops consistently while thinning my deck, I'm happy. Baby Jace giving me 3 cards to worry about coming my way is not a good thing. Child of Alara has never actually been casted. However, it was used as the commander because Sliver Queen is $40, progenitus is 10 mana, and Cromat does nothing. Child can be played before I play planeswalkers as one last Cleansing to make sure the board is devoid of anything annoying before I got into the 2nd phase of my plan.
Vindicate is out of my budget. It's been one of those cards that I ended up hearing about when I started out playing that was way out of my budget. I don't actually know the price but I've always thought it was really high. It might be like only $20 now... I believe it was around that when I started. Utter End I do like, I would like to fit in at one point.
STE won't be replacing Rampant Growth. It might however replace another card, I quite want it in the deck, I forgot about it while looking for cheap ramp.
Prophetic Prism might be a good cut, but it has synergy with Tezzeret and Venser while not being strong enough to get targeted. Fixing mana and cantriping makes it an MVP.
Rhystic Study hasn't been too hot... Not in this deck at least. It might take the fall.
I think the reason I like some of the C14 PWs more than others might have to do with my playstyle. When I feel the game is "ripe" and I can start dropping them, they do a lot.
Teferi enables me to get more mana, and drop PWs faster (the faster I drop them, the less they are likely to deal with all of them as they come) and provide CA once the ones in hand are on the field. He is perfect for the job.
Ob Nixilis gets a 5/5 FLYING. This is HUGE for protecting them, as this was the last thing I had a hard time dealing with when resources were low. The + helps me as my win con is a bit slow and thus opens me up to random damage over time things/ helps me kill them a tiny bit faster.
Freyalise (while being the new one that people seem to like the most from C14 for Superfriends) is the lowest ranking one from them (well the lowest I want). The tokens aren't super special, and the removal is ok (but I feel like I don't have a hard time with it) however, extra mana/blockers is indeed good, and the removal is great.
I tend to ignore the ultimates of playeswalkers while rating them (but not the threat of their ultimates, Venser). This affects my choices as well. Ob Nixilis and Freyalise aren't that great in the ultimate department.
Hey. I really like the list. I'm working on Bant Superfriends, myself, so this thread has given me a lot of good ideas. (I've had Humility sitting in my binder for the longest time; now I know what to do with it!)
Anyways, I'm wondering how you feel about artifact ramp, either instead of or in conjunction with Green's spell-based ramp. PWs tend to be expensive to cast, so I thought early, fast mana might help give a Superfriends deck a leg up. Have you tried mana rocks in this deck, and, if so, what was your experience with them? Were they too slow? Unreliable? If you haven't had much experience with them, what do you speculate?
Hey! Great to see other super friends decks. I've considered Chandra numerous times, but I've always been unsure of it. How has she been?
Which chandra? I don't think I've actually ever casted the Firebrand. Thinking about it, she doesn't fit the game plan as much as she's better if she comes down early, before everything has cooled off. Doubling your removal or your ramp is nice. Doubling your wrath effect or your rampant growth on turn 12 less so. She might come out. The other one, with my game plan has been quite good. Her "draw" works well since I have no counter spells, and I've often paired her with JtMS or Liliana to get the most from it. Using it at the beginning of the turn before playing a land garantees the CA. The worse that can happen is removal on an empty board. Is that such a bad thing?
Hey. I really like the list. I'm working on Bant Superfriends, myself, so this thread has given me a lot of good ideas. (I've had Humility sitting in my binder for the longest time; now I know what to do with it!)
Anyways, I'm wondering how you feel about artifact ramp, either instead of or in conjunction with Green's spell-based ramp. PWs tend to be expensive to cast, so I thought early, fast mana might help give a Superfriends deck a leg up. Have you tried mana rocks in this deck, and, if so, what was your experience with them? Were they too slow? Unreliable? If you haven't had much experience with them, what do you speculate?
Thanks!
I'm glad you like it
There are two types of artifact ramp: The unfair one one that accelerates you far a head and the fair one that merely ramps.
The first category is broken, if you are looking for pure power, run as many as you can.
The second category is a bit harder to evaluate. I don't know of any 2 mana artifacts that ramp you one mana of any color (filtering does not count). So either you're opening yourself to color screw or they cost 3 to get 1. Unlike regular ramp, they often tap for 1 on the turn you cast them. However, they don't filter your deck(I don't think this is a thing in this deck, but other decks I play with more ramp benefit) or provide a shuffle effect (not that great for me ~ yet). In my experience, once you reach a certain ammount, people will wipe them. They also prevent you from running a few of the cool old "Destroy all Creatures, Artifacts, and Lands" cards that are really good with this deck and might end up being casualties as collateral damage to stuff your opponent plays.
Now, I've not tried them in this deck, but this is speaking of experience with other decks that ran quite a few mana rocks (at 4 on the field, people spend a wipe on them).
However, on the flip side, they don't die to mass land destruction. Because of this, I say it is entirely up to your meta. I've seem much more artifact wipes than land wipes (even if having artifacts while you get land wiped gives you way more than having some during an artifact wipe makes you lose).
I also got a SSDT(or 4). I might add it in stead of Chandra. I also want to add the fetches in a bit.
Hey! Great to see other super friends decks. I've considered Chandra numerous times, but I've always been unsure of it. How has she been?
Which chandra? I don't think I've actually ever casted the Firebrand. Thinking about it, she doesn't fit the game plan as much as she's better if she comes down early, before everything has cooled off. Doubling your removal or your ramp is nice. Doubling your wrath effect or your rampant growth on turn 12 less so. She might come out. The other one, with my game plan has been quite good. Her "draw" works well since I have no counter spells, and I've often paired her with JtMS or Liliana to get the most from it. Using it at the beginning of the turn before playing a land garantees the CA. The worse that can happen is removal on an empty board. Is that such a bad thing?
Hey. I really like the list. I'm working on Bant Superfriends, myself, so this thread has given me a lot of good ideas. (I've had Humility sitting in my binder for the longest time; now I know what to do with it!)
Anyways, I'm wondering how you feel about artifact ramp, either instead of or in conjunction with Green's spell-based ramp. PWs tend to be expensive to cast, so I thought early, fast mana might help give a Superfriends deck a leg up. Have you tried mana rocks in this deck, and, if so, what was your experience with them? Were they too slow? Unreliable? If you haven't had much experience with them, what do you speculate?
Thanks!
I'm glad you like it
There are two types of artifact ramp: The unfair one one that accelerates you far a head and the fair one that merely ramps.
The first category is broken, if you are looking for pure power, run as many as you can.
The second category is a bit harder to evaluate. I don't know of any 2 mana artifacts that ramp you one mana of any color (filtering does not count). So either you're opening yourself to color screw or they cost 3 to get 1. Unlike regular ramp, they often tap for 1 on the turn you cast them. However, they don't filter your deck(I don't think this is a thing in this deck, but other decks I play with more ramp benefit) or provide a shuffle effect (not that great for me ~ yet). In my experience, once you reach a certain ammount, people will wipe them. They also prevent you from running a few of the cool old "Destroy all Creatures, Artifacts, and Lands" cards that are really good with this deck and might end up being casualties as collateral damage to stuff your opponent plays.
Now, I've not tried them in this deck, but this is speaking of experience with other decks that ran quite a few mana rocks (at 4 on the field, people spend a wipe on them).
However, on the flip side, they don't die to mass land destruction. Because of this, I say it is entirely up to your meta. I've seem much more artifact wipes than land wipes (even if having artifacts while you get land wiped gives you way more than having some during an artifact wipe makes you lose).
I also got a SSDT(or 4). I might add it in stead of Chandra. I also want to add the fetches in a bit.
Have you considered the new Nissa? if you have her on the field with 4 forests, The Chain Veil and Tezzeret the Seeker, you get infinite planeswalker abilites on each of your turns. if you were to throw in the new Teferi you can use that on any turn.
And even if you dont want to go infinite, Nissa can help with ramp.
I had, she is a bit expensive (and I anticipate her dropping). The only ability I anticipate using is her "Untap 4 Forest". This is restrictive, as I don't own fetches yet and such I will mostly be untapping basic forests, but with my ramp (the one that gets Forests and not basic lands) + fetches should allow me to get enough non basic forests to get a lot of user from her ability. She's interesting as to when she is "useful".
As said previously, I tend to play differently than most superfriends. I don't want to play them ASAP, and I'd rather play like a ramp+control deck at a table before the game gets at a point where everyone is running low no resource. Then I start to drop planeswalkers fast. The reasoning is that my opponents might have a "answer" density of 40% (creatures and removal count as answers both :/, so for each of my turns, I'm letting 3 players have a 40% chance of getting an answer per card drawn. If I drop a planeswalker per turn cycle, it's likely to be answered. If I manage to drop 3 per turn cycle, they are likely to be overwhelmed. Then it's just ride the ones that stick (getting Card Advantage and protection* from them) to victory.
So there are 3(4) phases of the game for me:
1(ish counts). Mulligans: I want to keep CA, Ramp, and Control. I tend to mulligan away all planeswalkers on the free mulligan.
2. Control / Ramp: Ramp and don't die. Try to let others prey on each other and prevent people from getting to ahead.
3. Planeswalkers: Once stuff dies down, drop planeswalkers as fast as possible. The order is usually those that protect themselves, followed by those that let you drop more faster, followed by those that generate CA.
4. Win: win.
Protection (for me, in this deck, at least) has these forms: Removal of problematic permanent, opponent card selection (discard or top of library manipulation) and tokens to defend from creatures.
So coming back to Nissa, she only helps in the third phase. She could work in the fourth one, but I'm scared that with me not running counters, I'm asking to get my lands blown out by a sweeper. But she does provide a faster win con (4/4s kill faster than 2/2s).
For the infinite combo, sure it works, it's a win condition, and I was excited when Nissa came out. But thinking about it more, I realised that (and this is entirely subjective) infinite comboes are not as pleasant to win with. Sure they end the game on the spot, and tend to be more powerful, but I have an innate dislike for them. I also realised that I feel similarly about doubling season and instant ulting planeswalkers, so as soon as I make a token deck, the card is getting cut. But if it works for you, by all means.
I've upped the ante and played against the strongest decks in my group.
I casted Child of Alara for the first time in the first game. And for the second and third in another (someone else exiled my graveyard).
Child of Alara is staying the general, and I don't want it replaced. A 6/6 body that people don't want to removal is a GREAT way to stall the game. You can attack elsewhere with your 12/12. It keeps you alive and wipes the board clean when it dies. Try not to keep it alive too long as it makes people stockpile cards in their hands. It's done a wonderful job at both keeping me alive and wiping the board and saved me and gave me the win both games.
I did, however, end up doing the incredibly gross "Drop Garruk, Apex Predator, -3 Targeting Child" 12 mana board wipe...
I also realised that with the cutting of Chandra, the Firebrand, I am down to 5 double walker pairs.
I'd definitely suggest including more nonbasics. If not fetches and such then I would at least suggest adding some of the M10 and Innistrad Check Lands, maybe the Pain Lands, or even some Vivid lands from Lorwyn. Reflecting Pool is pretty cheap now with the Conspiracy reprint, so I'd add that in a heartbeat. Exotic Orchard is also both very good and very cheap, and I'd probably play a City of Brass and / or Mana Confluence as well.
Cut one of each basic land for the 5 fetches, Cut Tezzeret, Prophetic Prism for Hinder and Spell Crumple.
I'n thinking of reversing the last one. I really liked Tezz, even if he didn't seem to fit. In addition I'm starting to question Contagion Engine. I do need counters though.
Have you been happy with Into the Roil? It does not seem to fit your gameplan.
You have a lot of powerful sweepers in your list, but I was surprised to see no Oblivion Stone. Easy on the mana, and you can save your own walkers if you have the time/mana.
I'd never cut Hinder or Spell Crumple, unless you are having trouble with the double blue on the casting cost. If that's the case, you might like Arcane Denial instead, which also allows you to draw! Depending on what gives you problems, you might also try Swan Song.
So I finally got my superfriends cards in the mail and I'm trying an experiment on how to put the deck together.
Instead of finishing my list before ordering cards, this time I'm taking the long way and making the list as I play with it (like you are "supposed" to.) So the idea is Superfriends, with tokens and control, with a bit of proliferation.
I do have a retaliation theme (I tend to retaliate in game, and Mind Twist and Rakdo's Return are some of the most evil cards out there.)(This was cut)So here's the list:
5 Child of Alara
// Recursion
2 Regrowth
3 Recollect
3 Eternal Witness
5 All Suns' Dawn
// Ramp
3 Kodama's Reach
3 Cultivate
3 Deep Reconnaissance
4 Explosive Vegetation
4 Skyshroud Claim
// Misc.
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Prophetic Prism
2 Torpor Orb
3 Savor the Moment
4 Humility
4 The Chain Veil
// Single Target Control
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Beast Within
3 Counterflux
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Mortify
3 Putrefy
3 Voidslime
4 Utter End
// Multitarget Control
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Nevinyrral's Disk
4 Supreme Verdict
5 Hallowed Burial
6 Terminus
6 Austere Command
6 Akroma's Vengeance
7 Cyclonic Rift
2x Black Sun's Zenith
7x Martial Coup
0 Maze of Ith
0 Command Tower
0 Hallowed Fountain
0 Godless Shrine
0 Sacred Foundry
0 Temple Garden
0 Watery Grave
0 Steam Vents
0 Breeding Pool
0 Blood Crypt
0 Overgrown Tomb
0 Stomping Ground
0 Polluted Delta
0 Flooded Strand
0 Windswept Heath
0 Wooded Foothills
0 Bloodstained Mire
7 Forest
5 Plains
5 Island
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
// Planeswalkers
4 Ajani Vengeant
4 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Garruk Relentless
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
4 Liliana of the Dark Realms
4 Ral Zarek
4 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
4 Xenagos, the Reveler
5 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
5 Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury
5 Jace, Memory Adept
5 Liliana Vess
5 Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
5 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
5 Tezzeret the Seeker
5 Venser, the Sojourner
5 Vraska the Unseen
6 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
6 Teferi, Temporal Archmage
7 Garruk, Apex Predator
7 Karn Liberated
8 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
8 Ugin the Spirit Dragon
5 Child of Alara
// Recursion
2 Regrowth
3 Recollect
3 Eternal Witness
5 All Suns' Dawn
// Ramp
1 Search for Tomorrow
2 Rampant Growth
2 Farseek
3 Kodama's Reach
3 Cultivate
3 Deep Reconnaissance
4 Explosive Vegetation
// Misc.
2 Explore
2 Torpor Orb
2 Constant Mists
2 Contagion Clasp
4 Humility
4 The Chain Veil
6 Contagion Engine
1x Mind Twist
2x Rakdos's Return
3x Genesis Wave
// Counter
4 Fuel for the Cause
1 Swords to Plowshare
1 Path to Exile
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Beast Within
3 Mortify
3 Putrefy
3 Volt Charge
4 Into the Roil
4 Grim Affliction
5 Spread the Sickness
// Wipes
4 Supreme Verdict
5 Hallowed Burial
6 Terminus
6 Austere Command
6 Akroma's Vengeance
7 Cyclonic Rift
2x Black Sun's Zenith
7x Martial Coup
// Draw
3 Rhystic Study
4 Tezzeret's Gambit
// Non basics
0 Maze of Ith
0 Command Tower
0 Academy Ruins
9 Forest
7 Plains
7 Island
6 Swamps
4 Mountain
4 Ajani Vengeant
5 Ajani Mentor of Heroes
4 Chandra, Pyromancer
4 Chandra, the Friebrand
4 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
6 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
7 Garruk, Apex Predator
4 Garruk Relentless
4 Jace, Architect of Thought
5 Jace, Memory Adept
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Liliana of the Dark Realms
5 Liliana Vess
7 Nicol Bolas
4 Ral Zarek
4 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
5 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
5 Tezzeret the Seeekr
5 Venser, the Sojourner
5 Vraska the Unseen
Thanks!
TheEndIsNear
My decks:
-Modern UWR gifts control
-Modern Mono-G aggro elves
-Azami, Lady of Scrolls EDH
-Glissa the Traitor EDH
-Modern UWR Counterbalance Control
-Modern UW enchantment control: primer, on tapped out
-Modern regular UWR control
Here are the changes and thoughts:
Remove
And possibly explore.
Add
I kinda want to cut Innexorable Tide.
I realized this deck wants to play as a control deck.
Ramp and control until you drop PWs as a source of advantage. You want to pay 3 types of planeswalkers. Those who deal with problems/defend themselves; those who general tokens; and those that provide CA over time. I got to ult Nicol Bolas twice on the same dude. I could have ulted Venser (I'd start exiling my stuff pretty quickly after though) and Ajani 100 life (who needs life though) I ulted Ral (got two extra turs and that + Conntagion engine allowed so many ults) I ulted Garruk, Apex Predator and just so much crazies.
It's a fun deck. But apart from ramp, CA, removal, and counters, I feel like the deck shouldn't play non planeswalker non land cards. Inexorable Tide felt win more. Genesis Wave too. Spread the sickness is too expensive. I need to be more color concious (double colored mana costs are harsh at times.)
Thoughts?
She draws so much attention that I guess it can be a double-edged sword, but most of the time opponents just squander resources all day trying to keep her from ulting.
While it isn't a planeswalker I think Gilder Bairn is probably worth checking out.
So stupid curse ate my post.
TL;DR: Updated deck, will post updates soonish. Vraska has been doing much better, I quite like her now, although I don't think I've ever gotten use out of anything but her -3. She works Wonderfully with Venser, just like Liliana and Jace tend to work well together. I don't really like Gilder Bairn.
I'm thinking Ajani Steadfast and Rings of Brighthart will not make it into the deck. I feel like 2 Ajanis is enough and I don't like his +1 and his -2 is basically a worse proliferate. I don't see him ever ulting. Rings of Brighthart, like the Bairn are essentially win more cards. If I've got planeswalkers sticking they are decent, otherwise they don't do anything (I do give a bit more credit to the Rings tough). I cut Innexorable Tide for the same reason.
Here are the changes I've made:
Out:
In:
I quite like the additions.
I also posted about how my deck won a 4 player 60/4/20 game. With another super friends control deck.
Where's baby Jace? He's a great political tool. And how has Lilly of the Dark Realms been fairing? I cant imagine too well, perhaps replace here? Or atleast include an Urborg. Her dependacy on Swamps is hard to utilize in 5 color.
My biggest interest is in commander choice. Why Child? He doesnt play nice with your Super Freiends. Any of the the other 5 color legends seem better. Particular favorites are:
Cromat
Progenitus
Sliver Queen
Interesting design though/.
I don't really like tutors. Card draw is something missing, but I can't see myself putting enough non permanent based card draw to make a difference and permanent (non planeswalker) based card draw will just end up colateral damage to my spells. The PWs are my source of repeatable CA even if it's isn't draw. I've already got quite a few jaces (3 IIRC) and so I don't want to add another. I don't actually like baby jace as a form of CA (he could be decent with venser I guess). I really don't like that he gives others extra draw*. Lili of the dark realms has actually been doing fine. I've been mostly using her as a way to hit my land drops consistently (she is disgustingly good with JtMS) and I've yet to use her as removal or to use her ult. I do like her with the shocks.
* I think I play this deck differently than most superfriends. First, I usually mulligan away any planewalkers in my opening hand. I tend not to drop them early (unlike the other superfriends deck I saw, he played one on turn 4). I try to stay back as much as possible, and reserve my cards as much as possible. When the board has been wiped a few times, the commanders cost a bit and the players have all been beating on each other (and I'm out of remvoal) I play any planeswalker able to defend itself, followed by those that generate CA. I do that and play the ones that remove stuff whenever I need to. This tends to prevent much retaliation. Usually the first few bite the dust but by that point the table can't deal with more than 3 in a row. Then I take over and play archenemy. People are usually in topdeck mode (my enchantment and artifact wipe tends to get rid of all the phyrexian arenas type cards.
This must affect the way I evaluate planeswalkers.
When Chandra, Pyromaster essentially doubles my draw while everyone is in topdeck mode, I'm happy. When Liliana of the Dark Realms makes me hit my land drops consistently while thinning my deck, I'm happy. Baby Jace giving me 3 cards to worry about coming my way is not a good thing. Child of Alara has never actually been casted. However, it was used as the commander because Sliver Queen is $40, progenitus is 10 mana, and Cromat does nothing. Child can be played before I play planeswalkers as one last Cleansing to make sure the board is devoid of anything annoying before I got into the 2nd phase of my plan.
STE won't be replacing Rampant Growth. It might however replace another card, I quite want it in the deck, I forgot about it while looking for cheap ramp.
Prophetic Prism might be a good cut, but it has synergy with Tezzeret and Venser while not being strong enough to get targeted. Fixing mana and cantriping makes it an MVP.
Rhystic Study hasn't been too hot... Not in this deck at least. It might take the fall.
+
-
I think the reason I like some of the C14 PWs more than others might have to do with my playstyle. When I feel the game is "ripe" and I can start dropping them, they do a lot.
Teferi enables me to get more mana, and drop PWs faster (the faster I drop them, the less they are likely to deal with all of them as they come) and provide CA once the ones in hand are on the field. He is perfect for the job.
Ob Nixilis gets a 5/5 FLYING. This is HUGE for protecting them, as this was the last thing I had a hard time dealing with when resources were low. The + helps me as my win con is a bit slow and thus opens me up to random damage over time things/ helps me kill them a tiny bit faster.
Freyalise (while being the new one that people seem to like the most from C14 for Superfriends) is the lowest ranking one from them (well the lowest I want). The tokens aren't super special, and the removal is ok (but I feel like I don't have a hard time with it) however, extra mana/blockers is indeed good, and the removal is great.
I tend to ignore the ultimates of playeswalkers while rating them (but not the threat of their ultimates, Venser). This affects my choices as well. Ob Nixilis and Freyalise aren't that great in the ultimate department.
Anyways, I'm wondering how you feel about artifact ramp, either instead of or in conjunction with Green's spell-based ramp. PWs tend to be expensive to cast, so I thought early, fast mana might help give a Superfriends deck a leg up. Have you tried mana rocks in this deck, and, if so, what was your experience with them? Were they too slow? Unreliable? If you haven't had much experience with them, what do you speculate?
Thanks!
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Palladia-Mors of {The Spirit of EDH}
EDH
WLinvala, Queen of the AngelsW
WUThe Prison of the Grand ArbiterUW [Primer]
URNiv-Mizzet, Handcycling ComboRU
UTalrand, Drake-Slinging to VictoryU
WUGDerevi, Tactical ShufflingGUW
BCao Cao, Discard Stax of Absolute MiseryB
Which chandra? I don't think I've actually ever casted the Firebrand. Thinking about it, she doesn't fit the game plan as much as she's better if she comes down early, before everything has cooled off. Doubling your removal or your ramp is nice. Doubling your wrath effect or your rampant growth on turn 12 less so. She might come out. The other one, with my game plan has been quite good. Her "draw" works well since I have no counter spells, and I've often paired her with JtMS or Liliana to get the most from it. Using it at the beginning of the turn before playing a land garantees the CA. The worse that can happen is removal on an empty board. Is that such a bad thing?
I'm glad you like it
There are two types of artifact ramp: The unfair one one that accelerates you far a head and the fair one that merely ramps.
The first category is broken, if you are looking for pure power, run as many as you can.
The second category is a bit harder to evaluate. I don't know of any 2 mana artifacts that ramp you one mana of any color (filtering does not count). So either you're opening yourself to color screw or they cost 3 to get 1. Unlike regular ramp, they often tap for 1 on the turn you cast them. However, they don't filter your deck(I don't think this is a thing in this deck, but other decks I play with more ramp benefit) or provide a shuffle effect (not that great for me ~ yet). In my experience, once you reach a certain ammount, people will wipe them. They also prevent you from running a few of the cool old "Destroy all Creatures, Artifacts, and Lands" cards that are really good with this deck and might end up being casualties as collateral damage to stuff your opponent plays.
Now, I've not tried them in this deck, but this is speaking of experience with other decks that ran quite a few mana rocks (at 4 on the field, people spend a wipe on them).
However, on the flip side, they don't die to mass land destruction. Because of this, I say it is entirely up to your meta. I've seem much more artifact wipes than land wipes (even if having artifacts while you get land wiped gives you way more than having some during an artifact wipe makes you lose).
I also got a SSDT(or 4). I might add it in stead of Chandra. I also want to add the fetches in a bit.
Which chandra? I don't think I've actually ever casted the Firebrand. Thinking about it, she doesn't fit the game plan as much as she's better if she comes down early, before everything has cooled off. Doubling your removal or your ramp is nice. Doubling your wrath effect or your rampant growth on turn 12 less so. She might come out. The other one, with my game plan has been quite good. Her "draw" works well since I have no counter spells, and I've often paired her with JtMS or Liliana to get the most from it. Using it at the beginning of the turn before playing a land garantees the CA. The worse that can happen is removal on an empty board. Is that such a bad thing?
I'm glad you like it
There are two types of artifact ramp: The unfair one one that accelerates you far a head and the fair one that merely ramps.
The first category is broken, if you are looking for pure power, run as many as you can.
The second category is a bit harder to evaluate. I don't know of any 2 mana artifacts that ramp you one mana of any color (filtering does not count). So either you're opening yourself to color screw or they cost 3 to get 1. Unlike regular ramp, they often tap for 1 on the turn you cast them. However, they don't filter your deck(I don't think this is a thing in this deck, but other decks I play with more ramp benefit) or provide a shuffle effect (not that great for me ~ yet). In my experience, once you reach a certain ammount, people will wipe them. They also prevent you from running a few of the cool old "Destroy all Creatures, Artifacts, and Lands" cards that are really good with this deck and might end up being casualties as collateral damage to stuff your opponent plays.
Now, I've not tried them in this deck, but this is speaking of experience with other decks that ran quite a few mana rocks (at 4 on the field, people spend a wipe on them).
However, on the flip side, they don't die to mass land destruction. Because of this, I say it is entirely up to your meta. I've seem much more artifact wipes than land wipes (even if having artifacts while you get land wiped gives you way more than having some during an artifact wipe makes you lose).
I also got a SSDT(or 4). I might add it in stead of Chandra. I also want to add the fetches in a bit.
And even if you dont want to go infinite, Nissa can help with ramp.
As said previously, I tend to play differently than most superfriends. I don't want to play them ASAP, and I'd rather play like a ramp+control deck at a table before the game gets at a point where everyone is running low no resource. Then I start to drop planeswalkers fast. The reasoning is that my opponents might have a "answer" density of 40% (creatures and removal count as answers both :/, so for each of my turns, I'm letting 3 players have a 40% chance of getting an answer per card drawn. If I drop a planeswalker per turn cycle, it's likely to be answered. If I manage to drop 3 per turn cycle, they are likely to be overwhelmed. Then it's just ride the ones that stick (getting Card Advantage and protection* from them) to victory.
So there are 3(4) phases of the game for me:
1(ish counts). Mulligans: I want to keep CA, Ramp, and Control. I tend to mulligan away all planeswalkers on the free mulligan.
2. Control / Ramp: Ramp and don't die. Try to let others prey on each other and prevent people from getting to ahead.
3. Planeswalkers: Once stuff dies down, drop planeswalkers as fast as possible. The order is usually those that protect themselves, followed by those that let you drop more faster, followed by those that generate CA.
4. Win: win.
Protection (for me, in this deck, at least) has these forms: Removal of problematic permanent, opponent card selection (discard or top of library manipulation) and tokens to defend from creatures.
So coming back to Nissa, she only helps in the third phase. She could work in the fourth one, but I'm scared that with me not running counters, I'm asking to get my lands blown out by a sweeper. But she does provide a faster win con (4/4s kill faster than 2/2s).
For the infinite combo, sure it works, it's a win condition, and I was excited when Nissa came out. But thinking about it more, I realised that (and this is entirely subjective) infinite comboes are not as pleasant to win with. Sure they end the game on the spot, and tend to be more powerful, but I have an innate dislike for them. I also realised that I feel similarly about doubling season and instant ulting planeswalkers, so as soon as I make a token deck, the card is getting cut. But if it works for you, by all means.
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+
I casted Child of Alara for the first time in the first game. And for the second and third in another (someone else exiled my graveyard).
Child of Alara is staying the general, and I don't want it replaced. A 6/6 body that people don't want to removal is a GREAT way to stall the game. You can attack elsewhere with your 12/12. It keeps you alive and wipes the board clean when it dies. Try not to keep it alive too long as it makes people stockpile cards in their hands. It's done a wonderful job at both keeping me alive and wiping the board and saved me and gave me the win both games.
I did, however, end up doing the incredibly gross "Drop Garruk, Apex Predator, -3 Targeting Child" 12 mana board wipe...
I also realised that with the cutting of Chandra, the Firebrand, I am down to 5 double walker pairs.
I wanted to cut it, then remembered it doubled my tokens as well.
Now I want to cut it again.
I played the most one sided game ever. It was a 1 vs 1, and I got a Karn reset, starting with Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker on turn one. GG.
This deck needs a bit of grave hate. It's a bit weak to decks that rely on the graveyard (like my Karador).
Cut Doubling Season for Savor the Moment.
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I'n thinking of reversing the last one. I really liked Tezz, even if he didn't seem to fit. In addition I'm starting to question Contagion Engine. I do need counters though.
Good luck!
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