Competitive Multiplayer EDH. Stick headache cards like Underworld Dreams and Megrim then cast Wheel of Fortune variants to cause the opponents to draw and discard a large number of cards, causing massive chunks of life loss. The deck utilizes a number of free counterspells and efficient low cost removal spells to interact with the opponent and stop them from disrupting your setup. Low cost dig cantrips (such as Preordain, Brainstorm, and Ponder) help draw into mana ramp and Wheel of Fortune effects, which are the bread and butter of the deck. Lastly, low cost mana rocks allows fast setup and maximum value Wheel of Fortune draws, after dropping the majority of your hand. The trick is to ramp fast out of the gate, hopefully setup a headache effect, then chain Wheels together, casting more ramp cards to continue wheeling, hopefully all within one turn.
The biggest draw of the deck is the overall synergy between low cost mana rocks that can be played out of your hand very quickly, and Wheel of Fortunes, and the headache cards to kill your opponents simultaneously. There are many duplicate effects (making it feel more like a '4 of' constructed combo deck, rather than a singleton EDH).
The deck is exceptionally well suited for taking out every opponent at once, and actually gaining more value the more players their are at the table. This does make you a giant threat by those who know how the deck works. Thankfully, due to the efficiency and duplicity of the card base, it's very hard for opponents to keep you down without killing you immediately.
Don't play this deck in a casual environment. Nekusaur is a mean jerk who will possibly ruin friendships and make games very short lived.
Card Descriptions
The General: Nekusar, the Mindrazer
The embodiment of the deck. Combining Howling Mine & Underworld Dreams with a decent toughness. While not required for the deck to perform, he acts as a reliable headache card, and can lead to much faster wins while he remains in play.
Headache Cards: Liliana's Caress, Megrim, Underworld Dreams, Fate Unraveler, Spiteful Visions & Psychosis Crawler
These are the cards that win you the game. They cause damage or life loss whenever a you or an opponent draw cards, or when opponents discard cards. If you have at least one of these out, you can pretty quickly win a game by chain casting 1-3 wheels together.
Resource Generating "Megrims": Waste Not & Geth's Grimoire
While these two don't directly let you win like Liliana's Caress and Megrim do, they both generate extra resources in the form of extra draws, mana, or even zombies whenever you do force an opponent to discard a card. Waste Not alone can allow you to continue to combo by generating black mana which can be filtered through the use of colored mana rocks to keep casting other wheel of fortunes, it is one of the stand out cards of the deck.
Wheel of Fortune Effects: Minds Aglow, Winds of Change, Jace's Archivist, Molten Psyche, Timetwister, Wheel of Fortune, Windfall, Whispering Madness, Memory Jar, Incendiary Command, Reforge the Soul & Time Spiral
These are the bread and butter of the deck. They allow you to refill your hand after dropping a chunk of mana acceleration, disrupt your opponents hands, and feed the headache cards the deck uses to win. A couple stand out cards from the list include: Incendiary Command, widely regarded as the worst of the command cycle, but a very powerful card when used correctly in this deck. It also can act as a wasteland to get rid of annoying utility lands (like glacial chasm), or a pyroclasm to wipe away token hoards or utility creatures. Minds Aglow is a mass draw effect, but doesn't discard/shuffle away the current hand. It can make use of the excessive amount of colorless or black mana (mana rocks and waste not) the deck can produce, and you don't have to pay for X until the spell actually resolves unlike prosperity or skyscribing (just don't expect anyone else to help pay for it unless you're doing 2HG commander). Lastly, Molten Psyche is actually one of your best Wheels, as it has a built in retroactive Underworld Dreams. It doesn't discard cards for Megrim/Liliana's Caress, but can actually kill opponents even without a headache card in play.
Tutors: Gamble, Mystical Tutor, Vampiric Tutor & Demonic Tutor
Generic, very mana efficient, tutors. Also planning on adding Imperial Seal (when I can afford one). Gamble has a slight risk involved, but if you combine it with library of leng, at worst it becomes an imperial seal that you don't lose life too (the card also won't be revealed if it gets discarded to the top of your deck, as it goes from a private information zone to another private info zone.)
Removal: Vandalblast, Void Snare, Cyclonic Rift, Toxic Deluge & Blasphemous Act
Some of the most efficient, high value removal spells in grixis... and void snare. Void Snare is actually one of the strongest removal spells for this deck, as it only costs 1 mana it's extremely efficient, and bounce any non-land, and when combined with a wheel of fortune, can permanently (or close to) get rid of any annoying permanent.
It was in the alpha list I had for this deck, and was cut just before going to beta.
While the card is another great howling mine that can get around giving your opponent the card first, it's not really what Combo-Nekusar is looking for. Having the howling mine effects at 2 mana (or 3 for Temple Bell because it's usable as an active to draw a tutored card off of imperial seal, or mystical/vampiric/personal, and combos for an instant win with Mind Over Matter. Or 4 mana for Font of Mythos, although I'll likely be cutting Font for Otherworld Atlas, which acts as a second temple bell) allows you to cast them on turn 1-2, and it doesn't matter if your opponents end up drawing before you or not.
Control Nekusar could probably make use of it, however I'm not a big fan of trying to run a controlling variant of Nekusar, when you are just feeding your opponent free card draw (kinda negates what you're trying to accomplish in a control deck).
I'll be creating a list of other cards I considered for the deck and their strengths and weaknesses.
Quick Match Report:
Played a couple games with the deck yesterday.
A 4 player game with Arcum Dagsson Combo, Shattergang Brothers Stax, and Grimgrin, Corpse-Born Stuff. I started the game off with a turn 3 Nekusar into turn 4 Spiteful Visions, both which got destroyed in the following turns. Arcum was land screwed (even with the extra draws) and was very slow to take off, Shattergang ramped up with Sakura-Tribe Elder, Azusa, Lost but Seeking, and Skullclamp, and was the one doing most of the control against me (with a little from Grimgrin). I flooded out without seeing a wheel for a handful of turns, recasting Nekusar a couple times (would cost 11 to recast at the end of the game). I did manage to stick an active Bloodchief Ascension for a few rounds while Shattergang had a ticking up Smokestack. Shortly after the Ascension got destroyed I drew a Demonic Tutor and Increasing Vengeance, cast both (copying the tutor) grabbing Wheel of Fortune and Waste Not. Waste Not did what it does best and generated 12 mana, a bunch of zombies, and an extra 9 cards, cast a liliana's Caress some mana rocks, then Windfall for 11 cards, netting me another 24 mana, many more dorks, and an extra 5 cards. An underworld dreams and a large Minds Aglow finished off the last player (all of this was in the same turn).
The second game was a 3 player fast game with the Arcum and Grimgrin from the previous match, which ended in short order when I cast both Megrim and Liliana's Caress on turn 3 (off a turn 2 Pentad Prism), turn 4 Whispering Madness, and turn 5 Incendiary Command which killed off both opponents (I apologized and we went on to play another game with different decks)
Edit:
Question for anyone reading this familiar with competitive level aggro EDH decks. Is there a primary color that almost super aggro decks play (the decks that can kill in just a few turns? such as Rafiq of the Many), such as White or Green?
One card that I strongly recommend after going over list and being unable to find it is Teferi's Puzzle Box. It is incredible whenever it sticks in my Nekusar deck as it's basically a wheel every turn. Plus the chaos aspect that it brings is both fun, and can throw people off their game.
One card that I strongly recommend after going over list and being unable to find it is Teferi's Puzzle Box. It is incredible whenever it sticks in my Nekusar deck as it's basically a wheel every turn. Plus the chaos aspect that it brings is both fun, and can throw people off their game.
I think Teferi's Puzzle box is one of the better cards for doing a Nekusar control varient, as it can steadily wear down your opponents with underworld dreams without giving them extra card advantage. In the combo deck, it's almost more disruptive than helpful, as normally you're dumping out your hands and setting up a wheel. If you're having to randomize your hand every time, especially after you knock it down to only a few cards early, it doesn't exactly help you. It adds damage to opponents, but the point of the combo varient is to kill your opponents by chaining wheels together in the same turn. That said, it was in my early lists, and was cut very late after I realized it's a little too expensive while not actually assisting combos.
... I may or may not have a near mint visions copy of Teferi's Puzzle box sitting in my "almost" pile for Nekusar...
A card I added on a bit of a whim has actually become my favorite removal spell for the deck. Void Snare. It's a 1 mana bounce into a wheel removal spell that is easy to fit in between wheel effects and helps to answer annoying permanents like Chains of Mephistopheles, Omen Machine, Maralen of the Mornsong. I see some lists running chain of vapor, and I think the drawback of letting your opponent bounce one of your megrims/underworld dreams/howling mines/Nekusar so you have to replay it makes it strictly worse than echoing truth, into the roil, or even disperse. Void Snare I think is better than those 3 (not as good as cyclonic rift however... that busted overload). Worse come to worse it's a 1 mana tempo answer that can set an opponent back a turn or 2 (or to walk into a counterspell), even if you can't combine it with a wheel of fortune effect to get rid of it more permanently (also adds one more card to your opponents hand size for winds of change/windfall variants. If you don't have Void Snare in your list, I definitely suggest testing it out.
Might have some free time tomorrow or this weekend to write up the list of other cards people might consider for this deck.
I'm not sure why this thread doesn't get as much traffic, but your list, sir, is beautiful. Frighteningly beautiful. When you said that a forked wheel could deal as much as 30-40 damage to each opponent with a "headache" card in play, I was aghast.
I have a slightly more lenient Nekusar build that's trying to draw as little attention to itself as possible by taking things slow and pretending to be the meekest commander in the field. I always felt that once people see Nekusar in the command zone, alarums start firing and people immediately turn their swords towards you, a scenario that I've tried to avoid because I thought Nekusar wouldn't be fast (or resilient) enough to endure. You, with all the ramping and fast mana you've included in your deck, have convinced me otherwise.
No more pretending.
I kept on scrolling up and down and could not think of anything else to add and couldn't think of anything (perhaps Tainted Strike to speed things along?).
I'm not sure why this thread doesn't get as much traffic, but your list, sir, is beautiful. Frighteningly beautiful. When you said that a forked wheel could deal as much as 30-40 damage to each opponent with a "headache" card in play, I was aghast.
I have a slightly more lenient Nekusar build that's trying to draw as little attention to itself as possible by taking things slow and pretending to be the meekest commander in the field. I always felt that once people see Nekusar in the command zone, alarums start firing and people immediately turn their swords towards you, a scenario that I've tried to avoid because I thought Nekusar wouldn't be fast (or resilient) enough to endure. You, with all the ramping and fast mana you've included in your deck, have convinced me otherwise.
No more pretending.
I kept on scrolling up and down and could not think of anything else to add and couldn't think of anything (perhaps Tainted Strike to speed things along?).
Just want to say thanks for inspiring me.
You're welcome, and thank you!
I think the thread gets less traffic because it's not a Primer and it only has a few posts in it already (I also don't have pretty card pictures at the top of the page). Primers and large threads draw more attention in general. Eventually I'll try to get enough info in here to make it an actual primer.
Tainted strike is a great card with Nekusar, makes one wheel almost lethal in itself (a good windfall can be). I don't play it personally because I try to be less reliant on Nekusar needing to be in play, but mostly because my play group plays with a 20 poison damage threshold, instead of 10 (In my opinion it should be 50% of the starting life total, as shown by 2HG rules).
I'm planning a couple small tweaks to the deck:
Cutting Forced Fruition and Nightscape Familiar for Gamble (still can't afford an Imperial Seal) and Mox Opal. Also changing the basic Mountain and Swamp and the Boseiju (coming into play tapped and the life loss has actually been hurting a bit while also being colorless). Also I haven't needed boseiju's uncounterable ability in my meta, might be more useful in others or in slower builds) into the Grixis artifact lands (not darksteel citadel though). Opal has 23 artifacts to turn it on (seems low, but remember how many cards the deck can go through in a turn), and is another 0 cost mana producing spell to help chain wheels. Forced Fruition is a great card for the deck, however after writing out my argument for Teferi's puzzle box, Fruition falls under a similar category where it is much better in the Control Nekusar (6 mana that doesn't yield immediate results doesn't belong in combo). Gamble is another cheap efficient tutor, especially after I wheel and have a full hand.
I don't like the Howling Mine effects in competitive Nekusar. I don't even like casting Nekusar until the turn you are ready to combo.
It might just be the decks I play against pretty much all are built to benefit of extra card draw just as much as I do. Whenever an opponent that uses those effects plays Nekusar against my combo/control Oloro my first thought is "thank you for winning me the game" before the game even starts. (And I'm usually right unless Niv is in the game)
Personally I'd rather play Puzzle Box (as mentioned by others), Psychosis Crawler, more personal card draw or control in those symmetrical draw spots you use.
The best Nekusar decks I've seen, the ones that don't win games for other people, play a lot like storm decks. You do a lot of deck cycling with and into wheels and use mana doublers (you might want to consider High Tide and Bubbling Muck) with stuff like Reiterate, Turnabout and untap cards like Frantic Search, Time Spiral, Snap etc...to build up massive mana then kill you in one turn casting 20 spells, most of which are wheels.
Another interesting strategy with Nekusar that I've seen used to good effect is Notion Thief. Which sounds a little counter intuitive. But what you do is aggressively tutor for Thief and a wheel. Build massive card advantage while emptying hands. Stuff your deck full of control. Then kill with Psychosis Crawler. Or use a kill spell on Thief when you are ready to wheel for lethal.
Beautiful list. I love playing with Nekusar, and have a couple suggestions: Elder Mastery - Locks people out of the game, much like Helm of the Ghast Lord. Quest for Pure Flame - A hidden gem that I've found to be incredibly helpful. Let's say Nekusar is out in a 4 player pod; Quest is up to 6 counters on your next turn. Your next Wheel of Fortune can do 102 damage to each opponent. (Activate Quest, leaving 2 counters. Nekusar trigger after first card draw [1 of 7]. 3 more counters on Quest for a total of 5. Activate quest, leaving 1 counter. Nekusar trigger 2 of 7. Activate quest. So on.)
I think cards like Elder Mastery and Helm of the Ghastlord (and to a milder extent, Curiosity, which is the Firemind's pet aura) are better suited for slower builds of Nekusar who aim to control the board first then kill their opponents (slowly) later. This would appeal to more casual (or patient?) Nekusar players, but not so much to those who run heaps of mana acceleration and just want to combo off asap. You might need to attach your auras during the same turn as Nekusar entered the battlefield, or run the risk of being disrupted (which would be easy to do if you're in such a hurry, considering the amount of cards that you're giving your opponents).
I think cards like Elder Mastery and Helm of the Ghastlord (and to a milder extent, Curiosity, which is the Firemind's pet aura) are better suited for slower builds of Nekusar who aim to control the board first then kill their opponents (slowly) later. This would appeal to more casual (or patient?) Nekusar players, but not so much to those who run heaps of mana acceleration and just want to combo off asap. You might need to attach your auras during the same turn as Nekusar entered the battlefield, or run the risk of being disrupted (which would be easy to do if you're in such a hurry, considering the amount of cards that you're giving your opponents).
Agreed. They are either way to slow or just plain pointless for a truly competitive Nekusar build. A competitive Nekusar build kills it's opponents the same turn they summon Nekusar. So those auras really don't do much of anything. Though they can make it so the wheels essential empty their hands. But that is usually win more at that point.
Agreed. They are either way to slow or just plain pointless for a truly competitive Nekusar build. A competitive Nekusar build kills it's opponents the same turn they summon Nekusar. So those auras really don't do much of anything. Though they can make it so the wheels essential empty their hands. But that is usually win more at that point.
With that logic, why not replace everything currently under "The Additional Draw"? If Curiosity is just win more, and Elder Mastery too slow, why does Helm of the Ghastlord stand out? I personally prefer the added flexibility, but if the "Competitive Build" is what you're going for, why not forgo the resilience and swap out all the Howling Mine - esque cards for additional transmutes and things more helpful without Nekusar on the board?
Agreed. They are either way to slow or just plain pointless for a truly competitive Nekusar build. A competitive Nekusar build kills it's opponents the same turn they summon Nekusar. So those auras really don't do much of anything. Though they can make it so the wheels essential empty their hands. But that is usually win more at that point.
With that logic, why not replace everything currently under "The Additional Draw"? If Curiosity is just win more, and Elder Mastery too slow, why does Helm of the Ghastlord stand out? I personally prefer the added flexibility, but if the "Competitive Build" is what you're going for, why not forgo the resilience and swap out all the Howling Mine - esque cards for additional transmutes and things more helpful without Nekusar on the board?
I already suggested that. He does have [competitive] in his thread tags after all.
what about sunder? i love, love, love it in my nekusar deck.
Sunder is fun. Especially if you are playing Mind Over Matter and Gilded Lotus. The card draw you can generate for yourself basically gives you unlimited mana without lands.
I was bored so I spent 5 minutes or so putting together a vague outline of a Nekusar list:
That's just a super rough sketch I came up with. If I really wanted it to be more competitive it would look damn near identical to my Grixis storm list. But it might give you some ideas.
I don't like the Howling Mine effects in competitive Nekusar. I don't even like casting Nekusar until the turn you are ready to combo.
It might just be the decks I play against pretty much all are built to benefit of extra card draw just as much as I do. Whenever an opponent that uses those effects plays Nekusar against my combo/control Oloro my first thought is "thank you for winning me the game" before the game even starts. (And I'm usually right unless Niv is in the game)
Personally I'd rather play Puzzle Box (as mentioned by others), Psychosis Crawler, more personal card draw or control in those symmetrical draw spots you use.
The best Nekusar decks I've seen, the ones that don't win games for other people, play a lot like storm decks. You do a lot of deck cycling with and into wheels and use mana doublers (you might want to consider High Tide and Bubbling Muck) with stuff like Reiterate, Turnabout and untap cards like Frantic Search, Time Spiral, Snap etc...to build up massive mana then kill you in one turn casting 20 spells, most of which are wheels.
Another interesting strategy with Nekusar that I've seen used to good effect is Notion Thief. Which sounds a little counter intuitive. But what you do is aggressively tutor for Thief and a wheel. Build massive card advantage while emptying hands. Stuff your deck full of control. Then kill with Psychosis Crawler. Or use a kill spell on Thief when you are ready to wheel for lethal.
So the additional card draws that I would cut would be howling mine, kami, and anvil. The temple bell and otherworld atlas combo with mind over matter, so I’ll be keeping them around. I’d lean more towards replacing with 2 or 1 mana personal draw, like ponder, preordain, impulse, etc… any others you would personally suggest?
I’m still not a fan of Puzzle Box on the combo side. Most of the time you dump your hand with acceleration and you aren’t refreshing nearly as many cards as you want, or you’re having to shuffle away wheels and just running into more rocks.
Psychosis crawler I think should probably find a place back in the deck as another headache.
High tide/bubbling muck I considered, but don’t think they generate nearly enough/consistent benefit (at least with my mana base). Muck is great with urborg, but urborg isn’t high on my land play priority. Turnabout’s a bit similar to me, in that you don’t get to choose artifacts & lands, also that it costs 4 mana. I guess it does have the nice benefit of being able to fog at its worse. Frantic search I like (especially with library of leng), although it does combine better with tide/muck.
I tried out Notion thief for awhile, and it was before I had excessive amounts of low cost ramp. I guess this is a more consistent/safe version of nekusar + helm of the ghastlord (which I’ll probably drop due to your later suggestions). I’ll give it another try.
Beautiful list. I love playing with Nekusar, and have a couple suggestions: Elder Mastery - Locks people out of the game, much like Helm of the Ghast Lord. Quest for Pure Flame - A hidden gem that I've found to be incredibly helpful. Let's say Nekusar is out in a 4 player pod; Quest is up to 6 counters on your next turn. Your next Wheel of Fortune can do 102 damage to each opponent. (Activate Quest, leaving 2 counters. Nekusar trigger after first card draw [1 of 7]. 3 more counters on Quest for a total of 5. Activate quest, leaving 1 counter. Nekusar trigger 2 of 7. Activate quest. So on.)
Keep up the mindraising!
Quest for pure flame is interesting, mostly because it’s such low cost, and every draw (even mass draw from wheels) triggers it individually with underworld dreams variants, so it clicks up very quickly on your turn. Elder mastery I omit because it’s a more expensive form of helm of the ghastlord, and I want to stay away from relying on having nekusar in play.
I think cards like Elder Mastery and Helm of the Ghastlord (and to a milder extent, Curiosity, which is the Firemind's pet aura) are better suited for slower builds of Nekusar who aim to control the board first then kill their opponents (slowly) later. This would appeal to more casual (or patient?) Nekusar players, but not so much to those who run heaps of mana acceleration and just want to combo off asap. You might need to attach your auras during the same turn as Nekusar entered the battlefield, or run the risk of being disrupted (which would be easy to do if you're in such a hurry, considering the amount of cards that you're giving your opponents).
Agreed. They are either way to slow or just plain pointless for a truly competitive Nekusar build. A competitive Nekusar build kills it's opponents the same turn they summon Nekusar. So those auras really don't do much of anything. Though they can make it so the wheels essential empty their hands. But that is usually win more at that point.
With that logic, why not replace everything currently under "The Additional Draw"? If Curiosity is just win more, and Elder Mastery too slow, why does Helm of the Ghastlord stand out? I personally prefer the added flexibility, but if the "Competitive Build" is what you're going for, why not forgo the resilience and swap out all the Howling Mine - esque cards for additional transmutes and things more helpful without Nekusar on the board?
I’m going to try out just this (although as I said above, keeping Temple Bell and Otherworld Atlas).
Helm has also proven unreliable in more competitive games, as they keep Nekusar off of the board, and 9 mana + a wheel and preferably counterspell backup is a little hard to have with all those cards too.
In terms of mana ramp, I’ve been testing out mana vault and been fairly pleased with it. Even though it’s 5 mana, do you think adding back in Gilded lotus is worth it? Yes I realize it combos well with mind over matter, but if mind over matter is in play, then I’ve already won. Also thinking about adding Mox Opal to the list.
I also made a large purchase yesterday in the form of a Timetwister, and have added that to the deck.
I’ll update my current list later tonight.
Thank you everyone for your comments and suggestions. I am trying to make this deck as strong as it can possibly be in terms of combo-ing, and all help is welcome.
So the additional card draws that I would cut would be howling mine, kami, and anvil. The temple bell and otherworld atlas combo with mind over matter, so I’ll be keeping them around. I’d lean more towards replacing with 2 or 1 mana personal draw, like ponder, preordain, impulse, etc… any others you would personally suggest?
I’m still not a fan of Puzzle Box on the combo side. Most of the time you dump your hand with acceleration and you aren’t refreshing nearly as many cards as you want, or you’re having to shuffle away wheels and just running into more rocks.
Psychosis crawler I think should probably find a place back in the deck as another headache.
High tide/bubbling muck I considered, but don’t think they generate nearly enough/consistent benefit (at least with my mana base). Muck is great with urborg, but urborg isn’t high on my land play priority. Turnabout’s a bit similar to me, in that you don’t get to choose artifacts & lands, also that it costs 4 mana. I guess it does have the nice benefit of being able to fog at its worse. Frantic search I like (especially with library of leng), although it does combine better with tide/muck.
I tried out Notion thief for awhile, and it was before I had excessive amounts of low cost ramp. I guess this is a more consistent/safe version of nekusar + helm of the ghastlord (which I’ll probably drop due to your later suggestions). I’ll give it another try.
Quest for the pure flame is interesting, mostly because it’s such low cost, and every draw (even mass draw from wheels) triggers it individually with underworld dreams variants, so it clicks up very quickly on your turn. Elder mastery I omit because it’s a more expensive form of helm of the ghast lord, and I want to stay away from relying on having nekusar in play.
I’m going to try out just this (although as I said above, keeping Temple Bell and Otherworld Atlas).
Helm has also proven unreliable in more competitive games, as they keep Nekusar off of the board, and 9 mana + a wheel and preferably counterspell backup is a little hard to have with all those cards too.
In terms of mana ramp, I’ve been testing out mana vault and been fairly pleased with it. Even though it’s 5 mana, do you think adding back in Guilded lotus is worth it? Yes I realize it combos well with mind over matter, but if mind over matter is in play, then I’ve already won. Also thinking about adding Mox Opal to the list.
I also made a large purchase yesterday in the form of a Timetiwster, and have added that to the deck.
I’ll update my current list later tonight.
Thank you everyone for your comments and suggestions. I am trying to make this deck as strong as it can possibly be in terms of combo-ing, and all help is welcome.
I'm down with keeping TBell and Atlas. Especially if you only plan to use them when you combo out. TBell + MoM + an Eldrazi Legend was once one of my favorite win cons.
I like your choices with Ponder, Preordain and Impulse. Good cards. Frantic Search might not be great for your if you aren't playing doublers but its still a very good card. I might lean towards Fact or Fiction over Frantic though.
Here's the thing about Puzzle Box: it's pretty good hand denial that keeps opponents from making long term game plans. It isn't there to bleed them off Nekusar. Its there to keep them off long term plans and to cycle your deck. For decks like Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind and Nekusar your whole plan is often deck cycling so cards like Puzzle Box and Mindmoil are often very good for you. You don't care about long term plans you just want to run through your deck ASAP to find specific cards that let your start your combo chain. If you don't think your deck benefits from that then Puzzle Box isn't for you. If you do, I would strongly suggest at least testing it out.
The thing about High Tide/Muck/Snap/Turnabout etc...The deck has to be built specifically to highly benefit off them. Like a storm deck. I put them in the quick list I made just because I know how good they can be. However, looking at them in that list now they just don't fit. Either I should take them out and replace them with more card draw or control or I should just make the list even more like my storm list. In your list they just don't belong right now. You would have to make drastic changes and at that point why not just make a storm deck...(which aren't very fun after awhile)
I'm of the strong opinion that Gilded Lotus is always worth it. Consider Jace's Archivist if you run Lotus and MoM. Lotus + Archvist + MoM usually means infinite mana and draw your deck. Heck, Jace's Archivist + MoM is sometimes all you need with Nek out.
If you are going to be looking for more cards to cut as you add things I'd say the next place to start is the discard package. Discard effects like that are better suited to slower decks. You can keep a few, especially if they deal damage (Megrim) but I wouldn't run as many as you do. I'm not sure about Waste Not...Initially when I saw the card spoiled I was like "perfect card for Nek" but honestly...a fast Nek deck only wants the mana acceleration. And black doesn't really keep your going on your wheel chain. So unless you have some filter effects...I don't know...I'd have to actually play the card to see what it does.
Congrats on your Timetwister purchase. It will very much improve the deck. Its such a good card. It should probably be in every blue deck but the price...
Final thought: I also like that Quest for Pure Flame that Kraken suggested. It's a card that is very good with slow Nekusar builds but also solid for fast builds. It has a low CMC, which is important for fast decks. It can also help speed up your combo win in a fast deck. However, it is a little "win more". More often than not you just don't need it to deal fatal damage to the table in a fast deck. Its the type of card that can go in if you absolutely can't find something that gets you to your combo pieces more quickly.
Final final thought (lol): I like Past in Flames better than Recoup. I'm down with paying a little more to give all spells flashback.
Beautiful list. I love playing with Nekusar, and have a couple suggestions: Elder Mastery - Locks people out of the game, much like Helm of the Ghast Lord. Quest for Pure Flame - A hidden gem that I've found to be incredibly helpful. Let's say Nekusar is out in a 4 player pod; Quest is up to 6 counters on your next turn. Your next Wheel of Fortune can do 102 damage to each opponent. (Activate Quest, leaving 2 counters. Nekusar trigger after first card draw [1 of 7]. 3 more counters on Quest for a total of 5. Activate quest, leaving 1 counter. Nekusar trigger 2 of 7. Activate quest. So on.)
Keep up the mindraising!
Quest doesn't work the way you think it does. Part of the cost of activating Quest is to sacrifice it.
Beautiful list. I love playing with Nekusar, and have a couple suggestions: Elder Mastery - Locks people out of the game, much like Helm of the Ghast Lord. Quest for Pure Flame - A hidden gem that I've found to be incredibly helpful. Let's say Nekusar is out in a 4 player pod; Quest is up to 6 counters on your next turn. Your next Wheel of Fortune can do 102 damage to each opponent. (Activate Quest, leaving 2 counters. Nekusar trigger after first card draw [1 of 7]. 3 more counters on Quest for a total of 5. Activate quest, leaving 1 counter. Nekusar trigger 2 of 7. Activate quest. So on.)
Keep up the mindraising!
Quest doesn't work the way you think it does. Part of the cost of activating Quest is to sacrifice it.
Wow, quest for pure flame looks great in this deck. I wonder if you take 8 counters off it that they both stack.
Edit: Nope nvm. But I do believe it is in direct competition with cards like twincast/fork. Pure flame is much easier to cast and get use out of, but is less surprising.
What about arcane denial and remand in this deck? Though not free, they are as cheap as it gets. Remand can be great for wheeling something away as well.
Kaalia's Army of AnnhilationRWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain MattersWB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator ToolboxBG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to DieRBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and TapGWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to BleedWBG
Wow, quest for pure flame looks great in this deck. I wonder if you take 8 counters off it that they both stack.
Edit: Nope nvm. But I do believe it is in direct competition with cards like twincast/fork. Pure flame is much easier to cast and get use out of, but is less surprising.
What about arcane denial and remand in this deck? Though not free, they are as cheap as it gets. Remand can be great for wheeling something away as well.
I've never been as big a fan of Denial as many others on this board. I hate giving opponents cards.
Remand is better suited for storm decks (Remand Tendrils after all the Tendril copies resolve then recast Tendrils) but it has some fun uses here. The one you point out for one. Another I like is casting Time Spiral then Fork targeting Spiral then Remand targeting Spiral. So you get the effect without Spiral getting exiled.
Haven't gotten to do more than a few solitaire games with most of the cards on the list, but so far I have to say that Gilded Lotus when combined with all the additional mana ramp that's been added to the list to make it drop on turns 2-3 has been fantastic (especially since it can instantly tap to cast Molten Psyche, Timetwister, Wheel of Fortune, and Windfall). The individual card draw spells have also been working out nicely for digging into wheels or more ramp. Also testing out some removal spell changes.
As for snapcaster mage, my issue with him in this deck is that he's not reusable out of the graveyard (well, unless you cast yawgmoth's will, in which case why aren't you just casting the instant/sorcery?) Recoup while only getting one card back (unlike past in flames, which by the way I do like, just am afraid of the excessive mana cost) is castable from the yard in a pinch. Most of the time you only need to recast one wheel effect for the game to be over, also Timetwister and Time Spiral both shuffle the yard back into the deck, so it's not uncommon to have no yard after a cast or flashback. I think Past in Flames is much better in a true storm deck that can utilize more rituals and can trip spells, this deck just wants to (in terms of instants and sorceries) recast a wheel.
5 Nekusar, the Mindrazer
Combo That:
3 Temple Bell
4 Otherworld Atlas
5 Dream Halls
6 Mind Over Matter
That Headache:
2 Liliana's Caress
3 Megrim
3 Underworld Dreams
4 Fate Unraveler
4 Spiteful Visions
5 Psychosis Crawler
Thanks For Discarding That:
2 Waste Not
4 Geth's Grimoire
I Wanna Draw That:
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
2 Impulse
4 Fact or Fiction
Let's All Draw a Lot of That:
1 Minds Aglow
1 Winds of Change
3 Jace's Archivist
3 Molten Psyche
3 Timetwister
3 Wheel of Fortune
3 Windfall
4 Whispering Madness
5 Memory Jar
5 Incendiary Command
5 Reforge the Soul
6 Time Spiral
2 Increasing Vengeance
I Don't Want to Discard That:
1 Library of Leng
Recur That:
2 Recoup
3 Yawgmoth's Will
Tutor That :
1 Gamble
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Demonic Tutor
Get Rid of That:
1 Vandalblast
1 Void Snare
2 Cyclonic Rift
3 Toxic Deluge
9 Blasphemous Act
Stop That:
0 Commandeer
0 Foil
0 Force of Will
0 Misdirection
0 Pact of Negation
0 Thwart
1 Swan Song
Ramp That:
0 Chrome Mox
0 Lotus Petal
0 Mana Crypt
0 Mox Diamond
0 Mox Opal
0 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Dark Ritual
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
2 Dimir Signet
2 Fellwar Stone
2 Izzet Signet
2 Pentad Prism
2 Rakdos Signet
2 Talisman of Dominance
2 Talisman of Indulgence
5 Gilded Lotus
10x Island
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Gemstone Caverns
1x Reliquary Tower
1x City of Brass
1x Command Tower
1x Mana Confluence
1x Reflecting Pool
1x Underground Sea
1x Watery Grave
1x Polluted Delta
1x Sunken Ruins
1x Drowned Catacomb
1x Underground River
1x Volcanic Island
1x Steam Vents
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Cascade Bluffs
1x Sulfur Falls
1x Badlands
1x Blood Crypt
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Graven Cairns
Cards I'm Testing:
Cards I Want to Add:
Updated 8/26/2014
My Common/Uncommon Cube - I need to update the online list badly...
There's a Planeswalker for that! - Child of Alara, Mono-Planeswalker EDH
Savra Sack Off - Savra, Queen of the Golgari, Grave Pact Control EDH
Anthems of Heliod - Heliod, God of the Sun, Token & Anthem EDH
Competitive Multiplayer EDH. Stick headache cards like Underworld Dreams and Megrim then cast Wheel of Fortune variants to cause the opponents to draw and discard a large number of cards, causing massive chunks of life loss. The deck utilizes a number of free counterspells and efficient low cost removal spells to interact with the opponent and stop them from disrupting your setup. Low cost dig cantrips (such as Preordain, Brainstorm, and Ponder) help draw into mana ramp and Wheel of Fortune effects, which are the bread and butter of the deck. Lastly, low cost mana rocks allows fast setup and maximum value Wheel of Fortune draws, after dropping the majority of your hand. The trick is to ramp fast out of the gate, hopefully setup a headache effect, then chain Wheels together, casting more ramp cards to continue wheeling, hopefully all within one turn.
The biggest draw of the deck is the overall synergy between low cost mana rocks that can be played out of your hand very quickly, and Wheel of Fortunes, and the headache cards to kill your opponents simultaneously. There are many duplicate effects (making it feel more like a '4 of' constructed combo deck, rather than a singleton EDH).
The deck is exceptionally well suited for taking out every opponent at once, and actually gaining more value the more players their are at the table. This does make you a giant threat by those who know how the deck works. Thankfully, due to the efficiency and duplicity of the card base, it's very hard for opponents to keep you down without killing you immediately.
Don't play this deck in a casual environment. Nekusaur is a mean jerk who will possibly ruin friendships and make games very short lived.
Card Descriptions
The General:
Nekusar, the Mindrazer
The embodiment of the deck. Combining Howling Mine & Underworld Dreams with a decent toughness. While not required for the deck to perform, he acts as a reliable headache card, and can lead to much faster wins while he remains in play.
Combo Cards:
Temple Bell, Otherworld Atlas, Dream Halls, Mind Over Matter
Temple Bell & Otherworld Atlas act as activated ability howling mines to trigger underworld dreams, and when combined with Mind over Matter, allow you to win instantly (underworld dreams variant = opponents take damage whenever they draw, library of leng lets you discard to the top of your deck when activating mind over matter, so you can avoid drawing yourself out while decking your opponents). Dream Halls and Mind Over Matter both generate free resources when casting wheel of fortunes (Dream halls gives you alternate casting options, and Mind Over Matter can untap mana rocks/lands with the cards you would discard away anyways). You occasionally generate extra value off of Liliana's Caress, Megrim, Waste Not, and Geth's Grimoire if opponents try to make use of dream halls.
Headache Cards:
Liliana's Caress, Megrim, Underworld Dreams, Fate Unraveler, Spiteful Visions & Psychosis Crawler
These are the cards that win you the game. They cause damage or life loss whenever a you or an opponent draw cards, or when opponents discard cards. If you have at least one of these out, you can pretty quickly win a game by chain casting 1-3 wheels together.
Resource Generating "Megrims":
Waste Not & Geth's Grimoire
While these two don't directly let you win like Liliana's Caress and Megrim do, they both generate extra resources in the form of extra draws, mana, or even zombies whenever you do force an opponent to discard a card. Waste Not alone can allow you to continue to combo by generating black mana which can be filtered through the use of colored mana rocks to keep casting other wheel of fortunes, it is one of the stand out cards of the deck.
Individual Card Draw
Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain, Impulse & Fact or Fiction
These help to smooth out your draws and dig for more wheel of fortune effects to keep comboing.
Wheel of Fortune Effects:
Minds Aglow, Winds of Change, Jace's Archivist, Molten Psyche, Timetwister, Wheel of Fortune, Windfall, Whispering Madness, Memory Jar, Incendiary Command, Reforge the Soul & Time Spiral
These are the bread and butter of the deck. They allow you to refill your hand after dropping a chunk of mana acceleration, disrupt your opponents hands, and feed the headache cards the deck uses to win. A couple stand out cards from the list include: Incendiary Command, widely regarded as the worst of the command cycle, but a very powerful card when used correctly in this deck. It also can act as a wasteland to get rid of annoying utility lands (like glacial chasm), or a pyroclasm to wipe away token hoards or utility creatures. Minds Aglow is a mass draw effect, but doesn't discard/shuffle away the current hand. It can make use of the excessive amount of colorless or black mana (mana rocks and waste not) the deck can produce, and you don't have to pay for X until the spell actually resolves unlike prosperity or skyscribing (just don't expect anyone else to help pay for it unless you're doing 2HG commander). Lastly, Molten Psyche is actually one of your best Wheels, as it has a built in retroactive Underworld Dreams. It doesn't discard cards for Megrim/Liliana's Caress, but can actually kill opponents even without a headache card in play.
Utility Spells:
Increasing Vengeance, Library of Leng, Recoup & Yawgmoth's Will
Increasing Vengeance can't copy opponent's instants/sorceries, but can be cast from the yard for extra value, so it can be freely discarded to wheel of fortunes or other effects. If you're looking for an effect that can copy opponent's spells and has a little more utility than just a simple reverberate/twincast, try out Reiterate. Library of Leng is a hidden gem for the deck. It allows you to save any cards you want to have in your new hand when you cast Wheel of Fortune, can save a card when you gamble, keeps you from milling out to a mind over matter, can help turn on metalcraft for Molten Psyche and Mox Opal, and even give you unlimited hand size (spellbook, eat your heart out). Recoup and Yawgmoth's Will let you recur cards in your grave, Yawgmoth's Will being the strongest of the two, but Recoup being able to be cast out of the yard (the majority of the time you only need to recast a wheel of fortune, which are almost all sorceries).
Tutors:
Gamble, Mystical Tutor, Vampiric Tutor & Demonic Tutor
Generic, very mana efficient, tutors. Also planning on adding Imperial Seal (when I can afford one). Gamble has a slight risk involved, but if you combine it with library of leng, at worst it becomes an imperial seal that you don't lose life too (the card also won't be revealed if it gets discarded to the top of your deck, as it goes from a private information zone to another private info zone.)
Removal:
Vandalblast, Void Snare, Cyclonic Rift, Toxic Deluge & Blasphemous Act
Some of the most efficient, high value removal spells in grixis... and void snare. Void Snare is actually one of the strongest removal spells for this deck, as it only costs 1 mana it's extremely efficient, and bounce any non-land, and when combined with a wheel of fortune, can permanently (or close to) get rid of any annoying permanent.
Counter Spells:
Commandeer, Foil, Force of Will, Misdirection, Pact of Negation, Thwart & Swan Song
Free counterspells (or only 1 mana for swan song)? Check. Moving on. It is worth noting, if you cast Yawgmoth's will, you are able to cast all of these counter spells for their alternative costs out of the yard.
Mana Ramp:
Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal, Mana Crypt, Mox Diamond, Mox Opal, Simian Spirit Guide, Dark Ritual, Mana Vault, Sol Ring, Dimir Signet, Fellwar Stone, Izzet Signet, Pentad Prism, Rakdos Signet, Talisman of Dominance & Talisman of Indulgence
Mana ramp is a very common strategy to EDH, the ability to play your big flashy spells before your opponent usually ends up in a win (especially if your spells disrupt theirs). Nekusar is slightly different in that it just wants to cast more and more spells, which is why all of the mana ramp is very low cost (some even free and/or one use).
Lands:
*Too Many To List Properly*
The mana base is very generic. Four gold lands, duals, shocks, fetches, filters, and buddy lands for Izzet and Dimir. Ancient Tomb. An Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. The only interesting thing is that is runs 10 basic Islands in addition to the duals and shocks, and thats to help support Foil and Thwart. Reliquary Tower and a Gemstone Caverns round out the 33 lands.
My Common/Uncommon Cube - I need to update the online list badly...
There's a Planeswalker for that! - Child of Alara, Mono-Planeswalker EDH
Savra Sack Off - Savra, Queen of the Golgari, Grave Pact Control EDH
Anthems of Heliod - Heliod, God of the Sun, Token & Anthem EDH
My Common/Uncommon Cube - I need to update the online list badly...
There's a Planeswalker for that! - Child of Alara, Mono-Planeswalker EDH
Savra Sack Off - Savra, Queen of the Golgari, Grave Pact Control EDH
Anthems of Heliod - Heliod, God of the Sun, Token & Anthem EDH
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
It was in the alpha list I had for this deck, and was cut just before going to beta.
While the card is another great howling mine that can get around giving your opponent the card first, it's not really what Combo-Nekusar is looking for. Having the howling mine effects at 2 mana (or 3 for Temple Bell because it's usable as an active to draw a tutored card off of imperial seal, or mystical/vampiric/personal, and combos for an instant win with Mind Over Matter. Or 4 mana for Font of Mythos, although I'll likely be cutting Font for Otherworld Atlas, which acts as a second temple bell) allows you to cast them on turn 1-2, and it doesn't matter if your opponents end up drawing before you or not.
Control Nekusar could probably make use of it, however I'm not a big fan of trying to run a controlling variant of Nekusar, when you are just feeding your opponent free card draw (kinda negates what you're trying to accomplish in a control deck).
I'll be creating a list of other cards I considered for the deck and their strengths and weaknesses.
Quick Match Report:
Played a couple games with the deck yesterday.
A 4 player game with Arcum Dagsson Combo, Shattergang Brothers Stax, and Grimgrin, Corpse-Born Stuff. I started the game off with a turn 3 Nekusar into turn 4 Spiteful Visions, both which got destroyed in the following turns. Arcum was land screwed (even with the extra draws) and was very slow to take off, Shattergang ramped up with Sakura-Tribe Elder, Azusa, Lost but Seeking, and Skullclamp, and was the one doing most of the control against me (with a little from Grimgrin). I flooded out without seeing a wheel for a handful of turns, recasting Nekusar a couple times (would cost 11 to recast at the end of the game). I did manage to stick an active Bloodchief Ascension for a few rounds while Shattergang had a ticking up Smokestack. Shortly after the Ascension got destroyed I drew a Demonic Tutor and Increasing Vengeance, cast both (copying the tutor) grabbing Wheel of Fortune and Waste Not. Waste Not did what it does best and generated 12 mana, a bunch of zombies, and an extra 9 cards, cast a liliana's Caress some mana rocks, then Windfall for 11 cards, netting me another 24 mana, many more dorks, and an extra 5 cards. An underworld dreams and a large Minds Aglow finished off the last player (all of this was in the same turn).
The second game was a 3 player fast game with the Arcum and Grimgrin from the previous match, which ended in short order when I cast both Megrim and Liliana's Caress on turn 3 (off a turn 2 Pentad Prism), turn 4 Whispering Madness, and turn 5 Incendiary Command which killed off both opponents (I apologized and we went on to play another game with different decks)
Edit:
Question for anyone reading this familiar with competitive level aggro EDH decks. Is there a primary color that almost super aggro decks play (the decks that can kill in just a few turns? such as Rafiq of the Many), such as White or Green?
I'm curious, mostly to see if playing Hibernation, Virtue's Ruin, or Nature's Ruin would actually be viable cards for this deck.
My Common/Uncommon Cube - I need to update the online list badly...
There's a Planeswalker for that! - Child of Alara, Mono-Planeswalker EDH
Savra Sack Off - Savra, Queen of the Golgari, Grave Pact Control EDH
Anthems of Heliod - Heliod, God of the Sun, Token & Anthem EDH
I think Teferi's Puzzle box is one of the better cards for doing a Nekusar control varient, as it can steadily wear down your opponents with underworld dreams without giving them extra card advantage. In the combo deck, it's almost more disruptive than helpful, as normally you're dumping out your hands and setting up a wheel. If you're having to randomize your hand every time, especially after you knock it down to only a few cards early, it doesn't exactly help you. It adds damage to opponents, but the point of the combo varient is to kill your opponents by chaining wheels together in the same turn. That said, it was in my early lists, and was cut very late after I realized it's a little too expensive while not actually assisting combos.
... I may or may not have a near mint visions copy of Teferi's Puzzle box sitting in my "almost" pile for Nekusar...
A card I added on a bit of a whim has actually become my favorite removal spell for the deck. Void Snare. It's a 1 mana bounce into a wheel removal spell that is easy to fit in between wheel effects and helps to answer annoying permanents like Chains of Mephistopheles, Omen Machine, Maralen of the Mornsong. I see some lists running chain of vapor, and I think the drawback of letting your opponent bounce one of your megrims/underworld dreams/howling mines/Nekusar so you have to replay it makes it strictly worse than echoing truth, into the roil, or even disperse. Void Snare I think is better than those 3 (not as good as cyclonic rift however... that busted overload). Worse come to worse it's a 1 mana tempo answer that can set an opponent back a turn or 2 (or to walk into a counterspell), even if you can't combine it with a wheel of fortune effect to get rid of it more permanently (also adds one more card to your opponents hand size for winds of change/windfall variants. If you don't have Void Snare in your list, I definitely suggest testing it out.
Might have some free time tomorrow or this weekend to write up the list of other cards people might consider for this deck.
My Common/Uncommon Cube - I need to update the online list badly...
There's a Planeswalker for that! - Child of Alara, Mono-Planeswalker EDH
Savra Sack Off - Savra, Queen of the Golgari, Grave Pact Control EDH
Anthems of Heliod - Heliod, God of the Sun, Token & Anthem EDH
I have a slightly more lenient Nekusar build that's trying to draw as little attention to itself as possible by taking things slow and pretending to be the meekest commander in the field. I always felt that once people see Nekusar in the command zone, alarums start firing and people immediately turn their swords towards you, a scenario that I've tried to avoid because I thought Nekusar wouldn't be fast (or resilient) enough to endure. You, with all the ramping and fast mana you've included in your deck, have convinced me otherwise.
No more pretending.
I kept on scrolling up and down and could not think of anything else to add and couldn't think of anything (perhaps Tainted Strike to speed things along?).
Just want to say thanks for inspiring me.
You're welcome, and thank you!
I think the thread gets less traffic because it's not a Primer and it only has a few posts in it already (I also don't have pretty card pictures at the top of the page). Primers and large threads draw more attention in general. Eventually I'll try to get enough info in here to make it an actual primer.
Tainted strike is a great card with Nekusar, makes one wheel almost lethal in itself (a good windfall can be). I don't play it personally because I try to be less reliant on Nekusar needing to be in play, but mostly because my play group plays with a 20 poison damage threshold, instead of 10 (In my opinion it should be 50% of the starting life total, as shown by 2HG rules).
I'm planning a couple small tweaks to the deck:
Cutting Forced Fruition and Nightscape Familiar for Gamble (still can't afford an Imperial Seal) and Mox Opal. Also changing the basic Mountain and Swamp and the Boseiju (coming into play tapped and the life loss has actually been hurting a bit while also being colorless). Also I haven't needed boseiju's uncounterable ability in my meta, might be more useful in others or in slower builds) into the Grixis artifact lands (not darksteel citadel though). Opal has 23 artifacts to turn it on (seems low, but remember how many cards the deck can go through in a turn), and is another 0 cost mana producing spell to help chain wheels. Forced Fruition is a great card for the deck, however after writing out my argument for Teferi's puzzle box, Fruition falls under a similar category where it is much better in the Control Nekusar (6 mana that doesn't yield immediate results doesn't belong in combo). Gamble is another cheap efficient tutor, especially after I wheel and have a full hand.
I also changed the Font of Mythos into Otherworld Atlas (now that I've finally acquired one. Ha! ... I'll shut up now...)
My Common/Uncommon Cube - I need to update the online list badly...
There's a Planeswalker for that! - Child of Alara, Mono-Planeswalker EDH
Savra Sack Off - Savra, Queen of the Golgari, Grave Pact Control EDH
Anthems of Heliod - Heliod, God of the Sun, Token & Anthem EDH
It might just be the decks I play against pretty much all are built to benefit of extra card draw just as much as I do. Whenever an opponent that uses those effects plays Nekusar against my combo/control Oloro my first thought is "thank you for winning me the game" before the game even starts. (And I'm usually right unless Niv is in the game)
Personally I'd rather play Puzzle Box (as mentioned by others), Psychosis Crawler, more personal card draw or control in those symmetrical draw spots you use.
The best Nekusar decks I've seen, the ones that don't win games for other people, play a lot like storm decks. You do a lot of deck cycling with and into wheels and use mana doublers (you might want to consider High Tide and Bubbling Muck) with stuff like Reiterate, Turnabout and untap cards like Frantic Search, Time Spiral, Snap etc...to build up massive mana then kill you in one turn casting 20 spells, most of which are wheels.
Another interesting strategy with Nekusar that I've seen used to good effect is Notion Thief. Which sounds a little counter intuitive. But what you do is aggressively tutor for Thief and a wheel. Build massive card advantage while emptying hands. Stuff your deck full of control. Then kill with Psychosis Crawler. Or use a kill spell on Thief when you are ready to wheel for lethal.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
Elder Mastery - Locks people out of the game, much like Helm of the Ghast Lord.
Quest for Pure Flame - A hidden gem that I've found to be incredibly helpful. Let's say Nekusar is out in a 4 player pod; Quest is up to 6 counters on your next turn. Your next Wheel of Fortune can do 102 damage to each opponent. (Activate Quest, leaving 2 counters. Nekusar trigger after first card draw [1 of 7]. 3 more counters on Quest for a total of 5. Activate quest, leaving 1 counter. Nekusar trigger 2 of 7. Activate quest. So on.)
Keep up the mindraising!
Agreed. They are either way to slow or just plain pointless for a truly competitive Nekusar build. A competitive Nekusar build kills it's opponents the same turn they summon Nekusar. So those auras really don't do much of anything. Though they can make it so the wheels essential empty their hands. But that is usually win more at that point.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
With that logic, why not replace everything currently under "The Additional Draw"? If Curiosity is just win more, and Elder Mastery too slow, why does Helm of the Ghastlord stand out? I personally prefer the added flexibility, but if the "Competitive Build" is what you're going for, why not forgo the resilience and swap out all the Howling Mine - esque cards for additional transmutes and things more helpful without Nekusar on the board?
I already suggested that. He does have [competitive] in his thread tags after all.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
Sunder is fun. Especially if you are playing Mind Over Matter and Gilded Lotus. The card draw you can generate for yourself basically gives you unlimited mana without lands.
I was bored so I spent 5 minutes or so putting together a vague outline of a Nekusar list:
1 Notion Thief
1 Psychosis Crawler
1 Jace's Archivist
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Wheels (7):
1 Timetwister
1 Time Spiral
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Winds of Change
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Molten Psyche
1 Windfall
Card Quality (8):
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Serum Visions
1 Preordain
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Frantic Search
1 Future Sight
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Intuition
Removal (8):
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Vandalblast
1 Blasphemous Act
1 Go for the Throat
1 Snap
1 Into the Roil
1 Chaos Warp
Counters (9):
1 Pact of Negation
1 Swan Song
1 Counterspell
1 Mana Drain
1 Spell Crumple
1 Hinder
1 Force of Will
1 Forbid
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Dimir Signet
1 Izzet Signet
1 Rakdos Signet
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Opal
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Fellwar Stone
Good Stuff (8):
1 Mind Over Matter
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Past in Flames
1 Phyresis
1 High Tide
1 Turnabout
1 Reiterate
1 Underworld Dreams
That's just a super rough sketch I came up with. If I really wanted it to be more competitive it would look damn near identical to my Grixis storm list. But it might give you some ideas.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
So the additional card draws that I would cut would be howling mine, kami, and anvil. The temple bell and otherworld atlas combo with mind over matter, so I’ll be keeping them around. I’d lean more towards replacing with 2 or 1 mana personal draw, like ponder, preordain, impulse, etc… any others you would personally suggest?
I’m still not a fan of Puzzle Box on the combo side. Most of the time you dump your hand with acceleration and you aren’t refreshing nearly as many cards as you want, or you’re having to shuffle away wheels and just running into more rocks.
Psychosis crawler I think should probably find a place back in the deck as another headache.
High tide/bubbling muck I considered, but don’t think they generate nearly enough/consistent benefit (at least with my mana base). Muck is great with urborg, but urborg isn’t high on my land play priority. Turnabout’s a bit similar to me, in that you don’t get to choose artifacts & lands, also that it costs 4 mana. I guess it does have the nice benefit of being able to fog at its worse. Frantic search I like (especially with library of leng), although it does combine better with tide/muck.
I tried out Notion thief for awhile, and it was before I had excessive amounts of low cost ramp. I guess this is a more consistent/safe version of nekusar + helm of the ghastlord (which I’ll probably drop due to your later suggestions). I’ll give it another try.
Likely additions:
Quest for pure flame is interesting, mostly because it’s such low cost, and every draw (even mass draw from wheels) triggers it individually with underworld dreams variants, so it clicks up very quickly on your turn. Elder mastery I omit because it’s a more expensive form of helm of the ghastlord, and I want to stay away from relying on having nekusar in play.
I’m going to try out just this (although as I said above, keeping Temple Bell and Otherworld Atlas).
Helm has also proven unreliable in more competitive games, as they keep Nekusar off of the board, and 9 mana + a wheel and preferably counterspell backup is a little hard to have with all those cards too.
In terms of mana ramp, I’ve been testing out mana vault and been fairly pleased with it. Even though it’s 5 mana, do you think adding back in Gilded lotus is worth it? Yes I realize it combos well with mind over matter, but if mind over matter is in play, then I’ve already won. Also thinking about adding Mox Opal to the list.
I also made a large purchase yesterday in the form of a Timetwister, and have added that to the deck.
I’ll update my current list later tonight.
Thank you everyone for your comments and suggestions. I am trying to make this deck as strong as it can possibly be in terms of combo-ing, and all help is welcome.
My Common/Uncommon Cube - I need to update the online list badly...
There's a Planeswalker for that! - Child of Alara, Mono-Planeswalker EDH
Savra Sack Off - Savra, Queen of the Golgari, Grave Pact Control EDH
Anthems of Heliod - Heliod, God of the Sun, Token & Anthem EDH
I'm down with keeping TBell and Atlas. Especially if you only plan to use them when you combo out. TBell + MoM + an Eldrazi Legend was once one of my favorite win cons.
I like your choices with Ponder, Preordain and Impulse. Good cards. Frantic Search might not be great for your if you aren't playing doublers but its still a very good card. I might lean towards Fact or Fiction over Frantic though.
Here's the thing about Puzzle Box: it's pretty good hand denial that keeps opponents from making long term game plans. It isn't there to bleed them off Nekusar. Its there to keep them off long term plans and to cycle your deck. For decks like Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind and Nekusar your whole plan is often deck cycling so cards like Puzzle Box and Mindmoil are often very good for you. You don't care about long term plans you just want to run through your deck ASAP to find specific cards that let your start your combo chain. If you don't think your deck benefits from that then Puzzle Box isn't for you. If you do, I would strongly suggest at least testing it out.
The thing about High Tide/Muck/Snap/Turnabout etc...The deck has to be built specifically to highly benefit off them. Like a storm deck. I put them in the quick list I made just because I know how good they can be. However, looking at them in that list now they just don't fit. Either I should take them out and replace them with more card draw or control or I should just make the list even more like my storm list. In your list they just don't belong right now. You would have to make drastic changes and at that point why not just make a storm deck...(which aren't very fun after awhile)
I'm of the strong opinion that Gilded Lotus is always worth it. Consider Jace's Archivist if you run Lotus and MoM. Lotus + Archvist + MoM usually means infinite mana and draw your deck. Heck, Jace's Archivist + MoM is sometimes all you need with Nek out.
If you are going to be looking for more cards to cut as you add things I'd say the next place to start is the discard package. Discard effects like that are better suited to slower decks. You can keep a few, especially if they deal damage (Megrim) but I wouldn't run as many as you do. I'm not sure about Waste Not...Initially when I saw the card spoiled I was like "perfect card for Nek" but honestly...a fast Nek deck only wants the mana acceleration. And black doesn't really keep your going on your wheel chain. So unless you have some filter effects...I don't know...I'd have to actually play the card to see what it does.
Congrats on your Timetwister purchase. It will very much improve the deck. Its such a good card. It should probably be in every blue deck but the price...
Final thought: I also like that Quest for Pure Flame that Kraken suggested. It's a card that is very good with slow Nekusar builds but also solid for fast builds. It has a low CMC, which is important for fast decks. It can also help speed up your combo win in a fast deck. However, it is a little "win more". More often than not you just don't need it to deal fatal damage to the table in a fast deck. Its the type of card that can go in if you absolutely can't find something that gets you to your combo pieces more quickly.
Final final thought (lol): I like Past in Flames better than Recoup. I'm down with paying a little more to give all spells flashback.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
Quest doesn't work the way you think it does. Part of the cost of activating Quest is to sacrifice it.
C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
Oops, I'm a dumb.
Have we all seriously forgotten about Snapcaster Mage?
Edit: Nope nvm. But I do believe it is in direct competition with cards like twincast/fork. Pure flame is much easier to cast and get use out of, but is less surprising.
What about arcane denial and remand in this deck? Though not free, they are as cheap as it gets. Remand can be great for wheeling something away as well.
Kaalia's Army of Annhilation RWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain Matters WB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator Toolbox BG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to Die RBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and Tap GWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to Bleed WBG
Yep. Lol. I put it in the quick list I made then forgot to say anything.
I've never been as big a fan of Denial as many others on this board. I hate giving opponents cards.
Remand is better suited for storm decks (Remand Tendrils after all the Tendril copies resolve then recast Tendrils) but it has some fun uses here. The one you point out for one. Another I like is casting Time Spiral then Fork targeting Spiral then Remand targeting Spiral. So you get the effect without Spiral getting exiled.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
Still trying to find a gamble, and working out a trade for a mox opal.
I put up a list of cards I'm currently testing out in the deck:
Haven't gotten to do more than a few solitaire games with most of the cards on the list, but so far I have to say that Gilded Lotus when combined with all the additional mana ramp that's been added to the list to make it drop on turns 2-3 has been fantastic (especially since it can instantly tap to cast Molten Psyche, Timetwister, Wheel of Fortune, and Windfall). The individual card draw spells have also been working out nicely for digging into wheels or more ramp. Also testing out some removal spell changes.
As for snapcaster mage, my issue with him in this deck is that he's not reusable out of the graveyard (well, unless you cast yawgmoth's will, in which case why aren't you just casting the instant/sorcery?) Recoup while only getting one card back (unlike past in flames, which by the way I do like, just am afraid of the excessive mana cost) is castable from the yard in a pinch. Most of the time you only need to recast one wheel effect for the game to be over, also Timetwister and Time Spiral both shuffle the yard back into the deck, so it's not uncommon to have no yard after a cast or flashback. I think Past in Flames is much better in a true storm deck that can utilize more rituals and can trip spells, this deck just wants to (in terms of instants and sorceries) recast a wheel.
My Common/Uncommon Cube - I need to update the online list badly...
There's a Planeswalker for that! - Child of Alara, Mono-Planeswalker EDH
Savra Sack Off - Savra, Queen of the Golgari, Grave Pact Control EDH
Anthems of Heliod - Heliod, God of the Sun, Token & Anthem EDH