So... my first shot would be to take out vicious betrayal because I just realized she's a sorcery. Then tooth and claw, [blood rites[/c], and elvish skysweeper? Still not enough space (and boy vicious betrayal would be so good in this deck...)
Original thread -
So I really just need help with the mindset of commander. How to maximize what I have to make it better over time and then stop having to ask all of these questions; questions like "what do I take out to make room for X"
eventually I will get another fallen angel and add her but.. I don't know what to take out for these guys. I feel like I need more ways to make tokens.. Here's my deck:
I don't know if anyone cares; but I've been working on my Jeleva deck and think I might make it into a Nekusaar deck which would free up Army of the Damned - which just seems to have a wonderful place in this build Also would like to get a Purphoros (and his hammer), and that eldrazi enchantmnet that makes 0/1 eldraizi mana sacs.
I figure taking out Tooth and Claw is a pretty safe bet for the eldrazi enchantment but...still not sure what to take out. The deck seems strong, but it needs more tokens, needs more board swipes, and I really wanna put purphoros, etc. in. I think Haste is really important for me playing against Marath because it seems Prossh always gets fireballed out of the sky before he can do anything. Thinking about a couple smaller haste enabling creatures but as they're mostly 1/1 they easily get burned before they can cause the haste. Marath really is a tough matchup for any of my decks =/
Sounds like you are relatively new. Hope you enjoy the format!
What does the Marath deck do that hoses you? If you face it and decks similar enough, other countermeasures might prove useful. Knowing how your are fighting Marath will help me to know what should not be cut.
There is a lot of room to cut stuff. Shattergang, Fell Shepherd, battle squadron, capricious efreet, terra ravager, and stronghold assassin, and sek'kuar are a few that could go. In their place, great token producers like rampaging baloths and avenger of zendikar could be added, as well as Puphoros and more board wipes. This is a deck in its nascent stages, but it can be formidable. Think about beastmaster ascension too.
A last thought is to play more ramp too. Prossh likes to be recast, so cards like these might help:
Xenagos, God of Revels can straight up let you one shot a player with Prossh. Pretty good if you ask me, and it can come out of nowhere. As long as Prossh connects, it is a 1 1/2 card player kill and Xenagos is really strong regardless of Prossh so I think it's an auto-include.
On cutting, you just take out what doesn't fit your theme or is either too situational. Going to throw out a bunch of ideas. Not saying to put all of it in.
Not only does Prossh like to be recast, but first he likes to die. If your opponents won't oblige.
Thanks for some of the tips guys! I really appreciate you taking the time. You're right I'm super new to Commander and my deck building in COmmander shows when the precon's tend to wipe the board with mine out of the box @_@ Marath...he's a monster. I've modified him along the way but only small things like adding mana dorks and a desolation giant[/c]. The deck is constantly able to pump out threats AND Marath keeps all the other creatures in check by just fireballing them away so all of those smaller 3/3 or less creatures just eat it after they come out so I never get to really use them (and they are often support guys so...) Then not to mention he can just burn all of the generals out if they don't have hexproof. Prossh has Greaves and Boots in there but that's hardly enough.
There's a lot of cards in there that seem like they would help a lot. I just learned about the "voltron" style and I can't say as though that's what I'm really aiming at with this deck. I like that Prossh CAN almost instantly kill an opponent but I also like that even if he gets blocked there are other ways to use the tokens to control the board or terrify my opponent (see also getting burned by marath (or stolen by my grixis creature steal deck) So I think I want to keep Shattergang and Battle Squadron. I'll see how many of those cards I have and see what I can snag up and report back
I have avenger of zendikar and rampaging baloth's in my Marath deck so I'll have to get 2 more of them Xenagos DEFINITELY but after I get some Purphoros love and parallel lives
So... my first shot would be to take out vicious betrayal because I just realized she's a sorcery. Then tooth and claw, [blood rites[/c], and elvish skysweeper? Still not enough space (and boy vicious betrayal would be so good in this deck...)
Personally, I really do not like Battle Squadron; if your tokens are not out, then the squadron ends up rather weak.
I like Vicious Shadows over Stalking Vengeance because the small tokens might not deal damage, but with Shadows out, there could be a much higher potential for damage.
Sky sweeper is worth dropping. Destroying flying creatures, but your choices to add all seem better to me.
Sadistic Glee, Blood Rites, Curse of Predation, vicious betrayal, Restore, Rough/Tumble, Curse of Shallow Graves all seem weaker than what you want to add. I think these cards could be cut.
Thanks for the input! I didn't know about vicious shadows but that seems like a really dangerous card to have in play before a huge sac to Prossh @___@
Sometimes I think my play style is much different from most people (probably for the worst) and that stems from only having the chance to play against myself and the decks I make =/ I'm with you on hosing Skysweeper and rough/tumble because I rarely use them - but I'm also building an Angel Demon deck that's chock full of fliers and my buddy that does come over sometimes to play who I'm trying to get into Commander LOVES fliers. But I guess I could take 'em out until there's a threat and keep stronghold assassin and shattergang to be less specific? I can see that logic. Do people keep "sideboards" for Commander decks?
The Curses I've found to help tremendously giving tokens and even changing strategic options. I've sometimes been unable to get my huge guys through (like if against marath and he keeps chump blocking me or fireballing Prossh) I find I'm suddenly given the choice to outnumber and overwhelm (and cards like hit // run become insane) whereas before I would be hard pressed to find a solution.
I'm not against the "voltron" style I just learned about but I think I'm more about having lots of options. But I guess it ALSO makes sense to nix Predation for Fling because that would net the same effect of getting past blockers with a huge fatty. But isn't it so much funner to attack with Battle Squadron AND Prossh. Say at first the Squadron is a 10/10 but prossh is just a 5/5 so they can block the squadron but then you sac 'em all to prossh. Block prossh in anticipation of this and you take the bigger hit (which is unsustainable and next go around still take the bigger Prossh hit). I like stuff like that Is inefficient?
So, Vicious Betrayal takes away my sneaky by being sorcery speed so she's gone for Purphoros.
Blood Rites for Anger.
Rough/Tumble for Parallel Lives.
You think maybe trade out Diligent Farmhand for Growth Spasm? Same mana in the end but I also get a token to make more mana/sac.
Tooth and Claw for fling.
Evlish Skysweeper for Sorceress Queen (maybe Fallen Angel?)
I'll keep playing the Curses and see how they treat me - you're probably right they could go.
Deathreap Ritual might be a good card to consider. Especially if you are going to be munching tokens a lot, plus creatures die a lot in EDH as I've come to find out.
Note Lot of card suggestions to follow. I've tried to recommend relatively cheap cards as I imagine you might be on a budget.
Don't worry about appeasing me, a random poster, heh! Use what you like. It's fun to win using what you like, be it turn-3 win combo decks or turn-20 win slow decks. If you like the Curses, keep them.
Fallen Angel is a decent enough choice, though I personally prefer Fallen Ideal because the art is awesome and it can be slapped onto a creature that can attack that turn, whereas Fallen Angel might need a turn.
Diligent Farmhand for Growth Spasm seems like a lateral move, but it could work. I think both are fine. Do you find that Restore works better than both of these cards? If not, maybe drop Restore. I'd also play Wayfarer's Bauble over Traveler's Amulet.
How are Plague Boiler and Sudden Demise treating you? I feel like these could be replaced by better board wipes (for example, All Is Dust or Oblivion Stone or Living Death). All Is Dust is not really budget, though. Just my opinion, and if you find they work, then stick with them.
A note on sideboards: they are not allowed per se by the official rules. It's a per-group thing as a matter of practice.
Beast Within: simply too versatile not to be amazing most of the time!
On the subject of raciing Marath; it's not the easiest thing, as Marath comes out earlier, but do consider adding more cheap ramp like Farseek to ensure that you can keep up. If Marath is winning the ramp race, maybe consider holding your ramp and land and play Jokulhaups, but that strategy would be rather bizarre I think.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
OK so here's the updated deck.
1x Battle Squadron
1x Deathbringer Thoctar
1x Diligent Farmhand
1x Elvish Skysweeper
1x Endless Cockroaches
1x Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder
1x Falkenrath Noble
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Grave Titan
1x Hua Tuo, Honored Physician
1x Inferno Titan
1x Jade Mage
1x Llanowar Elves
1x Ophiomancer
1x Phyrexian Ghoul
1x Quagmire Druid
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Scarland Thrinax
1x Shattergang Brothers
1x Silklash Spider
1x Skeletal Vampire
1x Sprouting Thrinax
1x Stronghold Assassin
1x Viscera Seer
1x Voracious Dragon
Instant (4)
1x Hit/Run
1x Jund Charm
1x Tragic Slip
1x Wrecking Ball
1x Garruk Wildspeaker
Land (38)
1x Akoum Refuge
1x Command Tower
1x Evolving Wilds
7x Forest
1x Golgari Guildgate
1x Golgari Rot Farm
1x Grim Backwoods
1x Gruul Guildgate
1x Kazandu Refuge
1x Khalni Garden
1x Kher Keep
1x Llanowar Reborn
7x Mountain
1x Opal Palace
1x Rakdos Guildgate
1x Rupture Spire
1x Savage Lands
6x Swamp
1x Temple of the False God
1x Terramorphic Expanse
1x Vivid Grove
Enchantment (9)
1x Blood Rites
1x Curse of Predation
1x Curse of Shallow Graves
1x Fecundity
1x Goblin Bombardment
1x Night Soil
1x Primal Vigor
1x Sadistic Glee
1x Vile Requiem
1x Ashnod's Altar
1x Darksteel Ingot
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Nim Deathmantle
1x Obelisk of Jund
1x Plague Boiler
1x Skullclamp
1x Sol Ring
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Swiftfoot Boots
1x Traveler's Amulet
1x Whispersilk Cloak
Sorcery (10)
1x Army of the Damned
1x Caravan Vigil
1x Life/Death
1x Rampant Growth
1x Restore
1x Rough/Tumble
1x Sudden Demise
1x Tempt with Vengeance
1x Tooth and claw
1x Vicious Betrayal
I really like playing it but I know it can be improved with these cards
1 fling
1 verdant embrace
1 sorceress Queen
1 stalking vengeance
1 purphoros, god of the forge
1 parallel lives
1 growth spasm
and also a fallen angel when I get one.
So... my first shot would be to take out vicious betrayal because I just realized she's a sorcery. Then tooth and claw, [blood rites[/c], and elvish skysweeper? Still not enough space (and boy vicious betrayal would be so good in this deck...)
Original thread -
ATM I have
1 darksteel ingot
1 falkenrath noble
1 phyrexian ghoul
eventually I will get another fallen angel and add her but.. I don't know what to take out for these guys. I feel like I need more ways to make tokens.. Here's my deck:
1x Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
Creature (29)
1x Battle Squadron
1x Brooding Saurian
1x Capricious Efreet
1x Charnelhoard Wurm
1x Deathbringer Thoctar
1x Diligent Farmhand
1x Elvish Skysweeper
1x Endless Cockroaches
1x Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder
1x Fell Shepherd
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Grave Titan
1x Hua Tuo, Honored Physician
1x Inferno Titan
1x Jade Mage
1x Llanowar Elves
1x Ophiomancer
1x Quagmire Druid
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Scarland Thrinax
1x Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper
1x Shattergang Brothers
1x Silklash Spider
1x Sorceress Queen
1x Sprouting Thrinax
1x Stalking Vengeance
1x Stronghold Assassin
1x Terra Ravager
1x Viscera Seer
1x Akoum Refuge
1x Command Tower
1x Evolving Wilds
7x Forest
1x Golgari Guildgate
1x Golgari Rot Farm
1x Grim Backwoods
1x Gruul Guildgate
1x Kazandu Refuge
1x Khalni Garden
1x Kher Keep
1x Llanowar Reborn
7x Mountain
1x Opal Palace
1x Rakdos Guildgate
1x Rupture Spire
1x Savage Lands
6x Swamp
1x Temple of the False God
1x Terramorphic Expanse
1x Vivid Grove
Sorcery (7)
1x Life/Death
1x Mass Mutiny
1x Rampant Growth
1x Restore
1x Rough/Tumble
1x Sudden Demise
1x Tempt with Vengeance
1x Hit/Run
1x Jund Charm
1x Tragic Slip
1x Wrecking Ball
Artifact (11)
1x Armillary Sphere
1x Ashnod's Altar
1x Jar of Eyeballs
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Obelisk of Jund
1x Plague Boiler
1x Skullclamp
1x Sol Ring
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Swiftfoot Boots
1x Traveler's Amulet
Enchantment (10)
1x Blood Rites
1x Curse of Predation
1x Curse of Shallow Graves
1x Fecundity
1x Goblin Bombardment
1x Night Soil
1x Primal Vigor
1x Sadistic Glee
1x Tooth and Claw
1x Vile Requiem
So thoughts on fluff to go?
I figure taking out Tooth and Claw is a pretty safe bet for the eldrazi enchantment but...still not sure what to take out. The deck seems strong, but it needs more tokens, needs more board swipes, and I really wanna put purphoros, etc. in. I think Haste is really important for me playing against Marath because it seems Prossh always gets fireballed out of the sky before he can do anything. Thinking about a couple smaller haste enabling creatures but as they're mostly 1/1 they easily get burned before they can cause the haste. Marath really is a tough matchup for any of my decks =/
What does the Marath deck do that hoses you? If you face it and decks similar enough, other countermeasures might prove useful. Knowing how your are fighting Marath will help me to know what should not be cut.
Some useful haste-granting creatures:
1 madrush cyclops
1 ogre battledriver
1 fervor
1 fires of yavimaya
If Marath's targeting is an issue, consider some shroud or hexproof cards, like these:
1 steely resolve
1 swiftfoot boots
There is a lot of room to cut stuff. Shattergang, Fell Shepherd, battle squadron, capricious efreet, terra ravager, and stronghold assassin, and sek'kuar are a few that could go. In their place, great token producers like rampaging baloths and avenger of zendikar could be added, as well as Puphoros and more board wipes. This is a deck in its nascent stages, but it can be formidable. Think about beastmaster ascension too.
A last thought is to play more ramp too. Prossh likes to be recast, so cards like these might help:
1 nissa's expedition
1 cultivate
1 kodama's reach
1 farhaven elf
1 khalni heart expedition
1 solemn simulacrum
1 burnished hart
I'll have another look tomorrow to see if I can offer more help. Bit tired tonight, heh.
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
Not only does Prossh like to be recast, but first he likes to die. If your opponents won't oblige.
Dragons' favorite meal
Eat some Saprolings
More guys that like to eat your little dudes. Good if Prossh gets tucked
Double your counters, double your critters, double your mana, double your fun
Can't get Prossh or your dudes through, throw them into your opponents' faces
Guys that like to die and be in your graveyard
Guys that like your stuff in your graveyard
Or you could go the Morbid route. This is stuff that likes when things die.
There's a lot of cards in there that seem like they would help a lot. I just learned about the "voltron" style and I can't say as though that's what I'm really aiming at with this deck. I like that Prossh CAN almost instantly kill an opponent but I also like that even if he gets blocked there are other ways to use the tokens to control the board or terrify my opponent (see also getting burned by marath (or stolen by my grixis creature steal deck) So I think I want to keep Shattergang and Battle Squadron. I'll see how many of those cards I have and see what I can snag up and report back
I have avenger of zendikar and rampaging baloth's in my Marath deck so I'll have to get 2 more of them Xenagos DEFINITELY but after I get some Purphoros love and parallel lives
1x Battle Squadron
1x Deathbringer Thoctar
1x Diligent Farmhand
1x Elvish Skysweeper
1x Endless Cockroaches
1x Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder
1x Falkenrath Noble
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Grave Titan
1x Hua Tuo, Honored Physician
1x Inferno Titan
1x Jade Mage
1x Llanowar Elves
1x Ophiomancer
1x Phyrexian Ghoul
1x Quagmire Druid
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Scarland Thrinax
1x Shattergang Brothers
1x Silklash Spider
1x Skeletal Vampire
1x Sprouting Thrinax
1x Stronghold Assassin
1x Viscera Seer
1x Voracious Dragon
Instant (4)
1x Hit/Run
1x Jund Charm
1x Tragic Slip
1x Wrecking Ball
1x Garruk Wildspeaker
Land (38)
1x Akoum Refuge
1x Command Tower
1x Evolving Wilds
7x Forest
1x Golgari Guildgate
1x Golgari Rot Farm
1x Grim Backwoods
1x Gruul Guildgate
1x Kazandu Refuge
1x Khalni Garden
1x Kher Keep
1x Llanowar Reborn
7x Mountain
1x Opal Palace
1x Rakdos Guildgate
1x Rupture Spire
1x Savage Lands
6x Swamp
1x Temple of the False God
1x Terramorphic Expanse
1x Vivid Grove
Enchantment (9)
1x Blood Rites
1x Curse of Predation
1x Curse of Shallow Graves
1x Fecundity
1x Goblin Bombardment
1x Night Soil
1x Primal Vigor
1x Sadistic Glee
1x Vile Requiem
1x Ashnod's Altar
1x Darksteel Ingot
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Nim Deathmantle
1x Obelisk of Jund
1x Plague Boiler
1x Skullclamp
1x Sol Ring
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Swiftfoot Boots
1x Traveler's Amulet
1x Whispersilk Cloak
Sorcery (10)
1x Army of the Damned
1x Caravan Vigil
1x Life/Death
1x Rampant Growth
1x Restore
1x Rough/Tumble
1x Sudden Demise
1x Tempt with Vengeance
1x Tooth and claw
1x Vicious Betrayal
I really like playing it but I know it can be improved with these cards
1 fling
1 verdant embrace
1 sorceress Queen
1 stalking vengeance
1 purphoros, god of the forge
1 parallel lives
1 growth spasm
So... my first shot would be to take out vicious betrayal because I just realized she's a sorcery. Then tooth and claw, [blood rites[/c], and elvish skysweeper? Still not enough space (and boy vicious betrayal would be so good in this deck...)
I like Vicious Shadows over Stalking Vengeance because the small tokens might not deal damage, but with Shadows out, there could be a much higher potential for damage.
Sky sweeper is worth dropping. Destroying flying creatures, but your choices to add all seem better to me.
Sadistic Glee, Blood Rites, Curse of Predation, vicious betrayal, Restore, Rough/Tumble, Curse of Shallow Graves all seem weaker than what you want to add. I think these cards could be cut.
Sometimes I think my play style is much different from most people (probably for the worst) and that stems from only having the chance to play against myself and the decks I make =/ I'm with you on hosing Skysweeper and rough/tumble because I rarely use them - but I'm also building an Angel Demon deck that's chock full of fliers and my buddy that does come over sometimes to play who I'm trying to get into Commander LOVES fliers. But I guess I could take 'em out until there's a threat and keep stronghold assassin and shattergang to be less specific? I can see that logic. Do people keep "sideboards" for Commander decks?
The Curses I've found to help tremendously giving tokens and even changing strategic options. I've sometimes been unable to get my huge guys through (like if against marath and he keeps chump blocking me or fireballing Prossh) I find I'm suddenly given the choice to outnumber and overwhelm (and cards like hit // run become insane) whereas before I would be hard pressed to find a solution.
I'm not against the "voltron" style I just learned about but I think I'm more about having lots of options. But I guess it ALSO makes sense to nix Predation for Fling because that would net the same effect of getting past blockers with a huge fatty. But isn't it so much funner to attack with Battle Squadron AND Prossh. Say at first the Squadron is a 10/10 but prossh is just a 5/5 so they can block the squadron but then you sac 'em all to prossh. Block prossh in anticipation of this and you take the bigger hit (which is unsustainable and next go around still take the bigger Prossh hit). I like stuff like that Is inefficient?
So, Vicious Betrayal takes away my sneaky by being sorcery speed so she's gone for Purphoros.
Blood Rites for Anger.
Rough/Tumble for Parallel Lives.
You think maybe trade out Diligent Farmhand for Growth Spasm? Same mana in the end but I also get a token to make more mana/sac.
Tooth and Claw for fling.
Evlish Skysweeper for Sorceress Queen (maybe Fallen Angel?)
I'll keep playing the Curses and see how they treat me - you're probably right they could go.
Thanks again!
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
Don't worry about appeasing me, a random poster, heh! Use what you like. It's fun to win using what you like, be it turn-3 win combo decks or turn-20 win slow decks. If you like the Curses, keep them.
Fallen Angel is a decent enough choice, though I personally prefer Fallen Ideal because the art is awesome and it can be slapped onto a creature that can attack that turn, whereas Fallen Angel might need a turn.
Diligent Farmhand for Growth Spasm seems like a lateral move, but it could work. I think both are fine. Do you find that Restore works better than both of these cards? If not, maybe drop Restore. I'd also play Wayfarer's Bauble over Traveler's Amulet.
you should really run Cultivate and Kodama's Reach. They're so good! Explosive Vegetation too. Darksteel Ingot and Obelisk of Jund could easily go to make some room.
I think that some more card draw would be beneficial too. Night's Whisper, Sign in Blood, Harmonize, Ambition's Cost, and Ancient Craving are all solid choices that should not be too expensive. I also really like Graveborn Muse, Bloodgift Demon, and Skullmulcher too. As suggested above, Deathreap Ritual is pretty cool. don't forget Slate of Ancestry either.
How are Plague Boiler and Sudden Demise treating you? I feel like these could be replaced by better board wipes (for example, All Is Dust or Oblivion Stone or Living Death). All Is Dust is not really budget, though. Just my opinion, and if you find they work, then stick with them.
A note on sideboards: they are not allowed per se by the official rules. It's a per-group thing as a matter of practice.
Some other suggestions for you:
Terminate: just fantastic removal.
Beast Within: simply too versatile not to be amazing most of the time!
On the subject of raciing Marath; it's not the easiest thing, as Marath comes out earlier, but do consider adding more cheap ramp like Farseek to ensure that you can keep up. If Marath is winning the ramp race, maybe consider holding your ramp and land and play Jokulhaups, but that strategy would be rather bizarre I think.