Right now this is more of an "ask for help" thread than anything. Regardless, the current goals of the deck...
1) 1v1. I guess I could build it under the french EDH rules too.
2) Keep it under $100 (tappedout.com currently has the deck at a low price of $98.81, although using mid price it is $136.47. When dealing with cash I like to use the low end though). I'm curious to see if under $75, under $50, or even a pauper build is possible, but for now I want to try and see how to pilot the deck properly.
I don't know of the current banlist for the french 1v1, but I know at least sol ring is on it (so I have to cut it from my current build).
I built this deck mostly because I rarely play control-type decks (frankly I'm awful at control since I'm so used to tapping out throwing creatures around) and so maybe actually playing a control deck will make me better at the game. But putting some budget constraints is also intriguing, and I also wouldn't mind having an EDH deck purely for 1v1 since I currently don't have one.
Pretty standard for Talrand builds, it just controls until it's safe to play Talrand, then get a bunch of drakes. With the drakes there's...
- Coat of Arms/Gravitational Shift for massive damage
- Bident/Coastal Piracy/Distant Melody to draw a bunch of cards
- Runechanter's pike to make 1 creature hugely strong
- Proteus Staff/Polymorph to cheat out a fatty
Right now there are 48 instants/sorceries in the deck.
If you're building this for french, you're in the wrong section. It's liable to get moved by the mods sooner or later.
French Rules can be found here: http://duelcommander.com/
If this is a budget control list, I can respect that. You seem to be trying to go Permission-Control.
Call me old fashioned, but I've always liked more than just 12 counters in a MUC (Mono-blUe-Control) EDH.
As far as additional counters go, try taking a look at these: Thassa's Rebuff - This one depends on your typical board presence. May turn out to be tasty, or a big let down. I'm not sure which way it'll fall. Spell Snare - In classic EDH, it has issues, in French, this thing is an all star. Mental Misstep - Ditto Rune Snag - Cousin of Mana Leak Miscalculate - Cyclable cousin of Mana Leak Force Spike - "I'm sorry, did you tap out for that spell?" In french, mana curves are tight and cards like this are GOOD. Daze - Like above, but u can cast it while tapped out. "You thought you could sneak one by me didn't you?" Mindbreak Trap - For those uncounterable or storm spells you'd rather not deal with. Oops, I thought this was cheaper. Abjure - If you don't have something expendable, I think something went horribly wrong. Dismiss - It's a counter, and a cantrip!
Some other cute cards: Standstill - Flavor text says it all. "Take your time". Next guy to cast a spell gives his opponent 3 cards. LOL. Hesitation - Counter the next spell played. It won't ever hit anything important (unless your opponent is drunk or something), but it can buy you a turn a lot of the time. Zur's Weirding - Drop this when you have a superior position and a few counters in hand, then trollolol your way to victory. "No you may not draw any more cards". Who cares if they deny your draws, you got the high ground, and it costs them life to do it. This can be dangerous, but it's very strong. Might be wins more in your deck though. Sunder - Funniest when played on an opponent's turn right after a land drop or EOT so they have to discard. Goes well with Reliquary Tower. Your opponent wanted a full hand right? Grant their wish! Style points for following it up with Cyclonic Rift overload! Parallax Tide - This little beast will tempo-screw an opponent for a few turns. If it leaves play with activations on the stack, the lands stay gone. Nobody who knows the card likes to see it across the table, and those who don't know will learn to hate it quickly. Portent - It's like Ponder's evil cousin. Trollolol, I'm gonna rearrange your top 3 and draw a card. Ghost Quarter - In french, it's only a matter of time before you run into Boseiju, Who Shelters All and/or Cavern of Souls. They will give you fits, so make sure you have something to kill them. This is the most budget-friendly, yet still viable option. Tectonic Edge - Same purpose as above, but will hit the wallet a fair bit harder. Still, if you want to play to win, this is a virtual requirement. Encroaching Wastes - Not viable in french, but it's better than nothing. Torpor Orb - Turn off those annoying utility ETB creatures that are so popular in EDH.
"The distance between genius and insanity... Is measured only by success."
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
Oh right, I forgot there's a separate board for 1v1 >_>
Thanks for the advice. I don't know how many counters I want that are more like "tempo" plays like daze and force spike, as I do play the deck against other decks that don't strictly follow the french rules, but you do have a point; the deck wants more counters and less bounce.
In any case, I played a few games tonight, and I also felt like I didn't have enough card draw or ramp. So here are some cuts...
- Mystical Tutor (usually this just gets fact or fiction, which is fine but not amazing when 2 cards are spent on it, and cutting this opens up some more budget)
- Windreader Sphinx (probably just better to hope for a jin gitaxias to get out from the polymorph)
- Sol ring (french banned rofl)
- whiplash trap (should cut down on the unsummon creature effects because many creatures have etb value)
- 1 island (for ghost quarter)
- vapor snag (I have two 1-mana spells that deal with creatures, and the 1 life loss isn't very important)
+ Everflowing chalice (some ramp)
+ Star compass (something I had on me that ramped, yes I somehow do not have mind stone and the like)
+ dismiss (eventually i'll have enough cards that do their best impression of cryptic command)
+ ghost quarter (yes you are definitely right, boseiju and cavern are cards and this is the only low-budget way to deal with them here)
+ ancestral vision (right now it's within budget, and I think a cheap card that helps draw is nice)
+ dispel (Not really sure, but because most kill spells are instants, this can help protect talrand at 1 mana and make a drake. also is nice in counter wars).
what are your opinions on the very narrow hard counters, like dispel or steel sabotage?
Thanks for the advice. I don't know how many counters I want that are more like "tempo" plays like daze and force spike, as I do play the deck against other decks that don't strictly follow the french rules, but you do have a point; the deck wants more counters and less bounce.
You're welcome.
French EDH is all about tempo.
Other interesting temp-counters include Memory Lapse - Screws up their next draw and slows them down a turn. Delay - Pretty funny in a counter war. Sage's Dousing - Mana Leak with a cantrip (assuming you have a wizard handy)
- Mystical Tutor (usually this just gets fact or fiction, which is fine but not amazing when 2 cards are spent on it, and cutting this opens up some more budget)
I'm not sure that cutting a tutor is a good idea. If you're most often using it to find FoF, then I would argue that you probably haven't been facing many tough matchups. If you get into some more competitive situations, I think you'll find that you start tutoring for other stuff. There's a reason why french bans Vamp Tutor and Seal. Pulling a tutor is a bit like drawing exactly what you want/need. But remember that tutors are only as good as your toolbox.
+ Everflowing chalice (some ramp)
+ Star compass (something I had on me that ramped, yes I somehow do not have mind stone and the like)
For ramp, I'd start with the blue options I mentioned. Star Compass might seem good, but the main problem I have with it is it's pretty useless after a 'Geddon effect resolves. Sky Diamond may be harder to find, but it's consistent.
+ dispel (Not really sure, but because most kill spells are instants, this can help protect talrand at 1 mana and make a drake. also is nice in counter wars).
what are your opinions on the very narrow hard counters, like dispel or steel sabotage?
Dispel is fine. Like you said, it wins counter-wars and stops a lot of removal spells. If it doesn't find a target, something went VERY weird or you're probably facing Animar. If the latter shows up, you might be in trouble.
Steel Sabotage is more of a vintage card. It's really a meta call. If artifact ramp and equipment are rampant in your meta, I say slam it and go. If not, you might be better off with something more general purpose.
"The distance between genius and insanity... Is measured only by success."
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
Yeah, for some reason I forgot that torpor orb was a card and I even have fabricate for it.
You're right about mystical tutor, but right now my spell toolbox isn't that large. I guess it can get polymorph though.
Yeah, I was probably going to add a couple better 2-mana ramp options, it's just that star compass was something I randomly had in my collection. Most of these ramp options aren't too expensive, it'll just be annoying trying to find them.
Not sure hwo good memory lapse is since whatever I counter will be back. Delay could be interesting because if it counters their general I wonder if they'll actually suspend it or just exile it to recast it earlier (at a higher mana cost).
Not sure hwo good memory lapse is since whatever I counter will be back.
Memory Lapse isn't good because it stops their spell cold, it's good because it makes them waste a turn re-casting the spell and not drawing a new card. It's not meant to be a hard counter, more of a pseudo-Time Walk.
Delay could be interesting because if it counters their general I wonder if they'll actually suspend it or just exile it to recast it earlier (at a higher mana cost).
"The distance between genius and insanity... Is measured only by success."
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
Yeah, sounds like memory lapse is a budget version of remand and delay is a hard counter usually.
I'm probably going to catch some heat for saying this, but here goes. In *SOME* ways Memory Lapse is better than Remand.
Same mana cost, similar effect. Remand replaces itself by drawing you a card Memory Lapse "replaces" itself by screwing the player's next draw
Where Memory Lapse starts to look really good is that you get to untap before they recast the spell (barring flash/instants)
When used in concert with a Winter Orb effect, it becomes a lot meaner.
Delay is only a hard counter with respect to counter wars and MAYBE generals. Every other situation treats it as just a tempo screw unless you're set up to turn off or mess with suspend.
"The distance between genius and insanity... Is measured only by success."
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
so what are some of the cards that I can cut? If I put mystical tutor back in, with torpor orb, and maybe memory lapse and delay, I need to make some cuts.
- elixir of immortality (I guess it's okay if one of my fatties gets milled and I want polymorph/proteus staff for it, but this feels very weak otherwise)
- sleight of hand (fine card but at ~$2 I think I can get a different cantrip. For reference, mystical tutor runs $3-4...)
- riptide laboratory (at ~$3 and all it does is bounce talrand at 3 mana)
+ 2 island (this deck has serious problems missing land drops despite all the cantrips, and another island is replacing riptide lab)
+ clairvoyance (a bad peek, which is a bad gitaxian probe, but being able to plan out multiple turns ahead is cool)
other potential cuts
- repeal? It cantrips, but it takes alot of mana to bounce something big. However killing tokens for 1 mana and cantripping is pretty brutal, so there's certainly merit to the card.
- capsize/forbid? They have buyback, but the costs are pretty hefty.
- is rhystic study worth it in 1v1? In multiplayer there are gonna be more chances that players skip paying the 1, but in 1v1 it seems players will more often pay the 1, which is less exciting. I could maybe try mystic remora, despite the cumulative upkeep it does cost only 1 and nobody is going to pay 4 unless it's extremely late in the game.
- cyclonic rift? overloading is still nice and at base it's a slightly weaker disperse (since it can't target my stuff if I ever want to), but the overloading feels less brutal in 1v1 than it does in multiplayer, and it also runs at ~$4.
- elixir of immortality (I guess it's okay if one of my fatties gets milled and I want polymorph/proteus staff for it, but this feels very weak otherwise)
Elixir is good in long games. It lets you outlast your opponent and gives you a pretty good out to mill. But in the end, it's not really helping you win, and you seem to have a lot of other answers to mill anyway. The 5 life is largely irrelevant in EDH, except in those close games where you win by the skin of your teeth.
- riptide laboratory (at ~$3 and all it does is bounce talrand at 3 mana)
I can see why you would. It's not all that exciting when the only wizard you have is your genearl. In a LONG LONG game, you'll see it pay off, but short of turn 17 and the 4th casting of your general, you're liable to be pretty happy without it.
+ clairvoyance (a bad peek, which is a bad gitaxian probe, but being able to plan out multiple turns ahead is cool)
Interesting. It's still an instant, and still 1 mana. But I think you may have enough cantrips. The tricky part is balancing cantrips with business spells. Drawing cards is great, but it doesn't win you games.
- repeal? It cantrips, but it takes alot of mana to bounce something big. However killing tokens for 1 mana and cantripping is pretty brutal, so there's certainly merit to the card.
I think you have a good enough bounce suite so drop this one. I've never found it tempting for EDH.
- capsize/forbid? They have buyback, but the costs are pretty hefty.
Capsize is good enough to keep. In long games, it gets really stupid. You just hit their highest CMC permanent and if they want to keep it, they have to re-cast it again, which means they are tapping a ton of mana to keep it out. All the while you're accumulating your drake tokens. Win/win.
Forbid is solid, but without Bident/Piracy, it will be a little disappointing. Once you stick one of those, it's a brick house.
- is rhystic study worth it in 1v1? In multiplayer there are gonna be more chances that players skip paying the 1, but in 1v1 it seems
players will more often pay the 1, which is less exciting. I could maybe try mystic remora, despite the cumulative upkeep it does cost only 1 and nobody is going to pay 4 unless it's extremely late in the game.[/quote]
I think you're missing the point of the card. It's not ONLY for drawing cards. It gives you cards OR slows down your opponent(s). Either way, I would be pretty happy.
- cyclonic rift? overloading is still nice and at base it's a slightly weaker disperse (since it can't target my stuff if I ever want to), but the overloading feels less brutal in 1v1 than it does in multiplayer, and it also runs at ~$4.
Overloading Cyclonic Rift is ANUS SHATTERING in the late game (the flavor text is quite accurate, it's an unnatural disaster). Few plays can compare with it. EOT, it typically induces mass discard. In response to a devotion trigger/spell, it effectively counters it. Early game it can trip an opponent up. Mid-combat, it's like a Fog with teeth. This thing is flixible (not as flexible as Cryptic, but we can't all be $50+ cards now can we?) and the only time it becomes useless is when all your opponents have virtually no board presence, in which case you're already winning.
I have a Mono-Blue Aggro EDH where I tried to keep the curve low. This card is one of two 7-drops still in the list. I'm thinking of cutting the other one.
Some cuts I might make: Thought Scour - You have no way to really abuse the bin, no flashback to speak of, and are unequipped to mill out an opponent. So the only thing this does to an opponent is occasionally luck you into value or screw up top-deck manipulation. Coat of Arms - This one is one hell of a finisher, but it may be unnecessary. Ur call. Stormtide Leviathan - This thing never really managed to impress me. It comes down pretty late, so it tends to rot in your hand. I never liked drawing this thing because I never got to the point of being able to play it, I usually win, lose, or don't draw it. However, I am referring to my experiences with it in an aggro deck.
"The distance between genius and insanity... Is measured only by success."
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
I was curious about clairvoyance because of the peeking ability. Since Talrand can't protect himself, usually I have to play him late so I can protect him with counters, but with peek abilities I can just jam him in if the opponent doesn't have anything big. The earlier talrand hits play the more value I can get with drakes.
Yes, I'll definitely cut thought scour for another counter or torpor orb or mystical tutor.
I've never been able to play coat of arms yet so I can't say how good it is. I may have enough "useful with mass drakes" cards already though (bident, piracy, Distant melody), although since it basically ends the game with multiple drakes out (rather than the other three which durdle with card draw), I'm not quite sure. Coat of arms is the one card which can be dead though if the opponent has a token theme too or such.
Stormtide leviathan is mostly in there for its moat effect. However in most cases I do want polymorph/proteus staff to hit tidespout tyrant or jin gitaxias over leviathan. I'm just worried that I may not have creatures for polymorph with just 2 targets. Maybe they get milled or stuck in my hand, or they get into play and then die.
I'll cut thought scour and repeal for mystical tutor and torpor orb. Updated list in OP. The budget is right at $98.81 at low price, so it's just barely under. Although double checking, it's largely because the site uses the From the Exiled version which is $17-18, whereas 6th and Mirage versions are ~$4.
I'm also surprised this hasn't been moved to the 1v1 board yet >_>
Should I run blue sun's zenith? It doesn't seem like this deck can quickly kill people, and it's nice to fetch a huge draw spell off merchant scroll/mystical tutor.
also not sure if i could run lightning greaves to help protect talrand so I don't always need counter backup in the nonblue matchups. greaves can also protect one of my fatties after I cheat it out.
also not sure if i could run lightning greaves to help protect talrand so I don't always need counter backup in the nonblue matchups. greaves can also protect one of my fatties after I cheat it out.
Absolutely! Lightning Greaves is standard fare in EDH. Very few (how many have haste and shroud/troll shroud?) generals would not benefit from it.
Should I run blue sun's zenith? It doesn't seem like this deck can quickly kill people, and it's nice to fetch a huge draw spell off merchant scroll/mystical tutor.
It seems like a good idea. Most decks, and especially MUC decks, like to draw lots of cards. Why would yours be any different? You can even repeatedly cast it for X = 0 in a pinch to avoid decking out. Plus you can use it offensively to finish off an opponent when they run low on cards in library and you are big on mana. I think that's a pretty solid definition of "good". EOT, deck you out. Game!
"The distance between genius and insanity... Is measured only by success."
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
1) 1v1. I guess I could build it under the french EDH rules too.
2) Keep it under $100 (tappedout.com currently has the deck at a low price of $98.81, although using mid price it is $136.47. When dealing with cash I like to use the low end though). I'm curious to see if under $75, under $50, or even a pauper build is possible, but for now I want to try and see how to pilot the deck properly.
I don't know of the current banlist for the french 1v1, but I know at least sol ring is on it (so I have to cut it from my current build).
I built this deck mostly because I rarely play control-type decks (frankly I'm awful at control since I'm so used to tapping out throwing creatures around) and so maybe actually playing a control deck will make me better at the game. But putting some budget constraints is also intriguing, and I also wouldn't mind having an EDH deck purely for 1v1 since I currently don't have one.
1 Talrand, Sky Summoner
"CANTRIPS" (gets 1-3ish cards upon casting) (16)
1 Ancestral Vision
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 Opt
1 Preordain
1 Clairvoyance
1 Peek
1 Telling Time
1 See Beyond
1 Think Twice
1 Impulse
1 Peer Through Depths
1 Frantic Search
1 Compulsive Research
1 Fact or Fiction
COUNTERS (14)
1 Spell Pierce
1 Swan Song
1 Dispel
1 Arcane Denial
1 Counterspell
1 Mana Leak
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Negate
1 Essence Scatter
1 Spell Crumple
1 Forbid
1 Hinder
1 Rewind
1 Dismiss
1 Pongify
1 Rapid Hybridization
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Into the Roil
1 Boomerang
1 Echoing Truth
1 Snap
1 Capsize
1 Repulse
1 Wash out
1 Aetherize
CREATURES (3)
1 Stormtide Leviathan
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
BIG CARD DRAW (4)
1 Rhystic Study
1 Bident of Thassa
1 Coastal Piracy
1 Distant Melody
RANDOM POWER CARDS (7)
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Runechanter's Pike
1 Proteus Staff
1 Polymorph
1 Opposition
1 Coat of Arms
1 Gravitational Shift
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Fabricate
1 Long Term Plans
OTHER (4)
1 Everflowing Chalice
1 High Tide
1 Star Compass
1 Torpor Orb
LANDS (36)
32 island
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Temple of the False God
Pretty standard for Talrand builds, it just controls until it's safe to play Talrand, then get a bunch of drakes. With the drakes there's...
- Coat of Arms/Gravitational Shift for massive damage
- Bident/Coastal Piracy/Distant Melody to draw a bunch of cards
- Runechanter's pike to make 1 creature hugely strong
- Proteus Staff/Polymorph to cheat out a fatty
Right now there are 48 instants/sorceries in the deck.
WUBRGProgenitus
URGMaelstrom Wanderer
WUBOloro, Ageless Ascetic
WURZedruu, the Greathearted
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher ($100)
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician ($100)
UGKruphix, God of Horizons ($100)(retired)UTalrand, Sky Summoner (French 1v1, $100)
French Rules can be found here: http://duelcommander.com/
If this is a budget control list, I can respect that. You seem to be trying to go Permission-Control.
Call me old fashioned, but I've always liked more than just 12 counters in a MUC (Mono-blUe-Control) EDH.
As far as additional counters go, try taking a look at these:
Thassa's Rebuff - This one depends on your typical board presence. May turn out to be tasty, or a big let down. I'm not sure which way it'll fall.
Spell Snare - In classic EDH, it has issues, in French, this thing is an all star.
Mental Misstep - Ditto
Rune Snag - Cousin of Mana Leak
Miscalculate - Cyclable cousin of Mana Leak
Force Spike - "I'm sorry, did you tap out for that spell?" In french, mana curves are tight and cards like this are GOOD.
Daze - Like above, but u can cast it while tapped out. "You thought you could sneak one by me didn't you?"
Mindbreak Trap - For those uncounterable or storm spells you'd rather not deal with. Oops, I thought this was cheaper.Abjure - If you don't have something expendable, I think something went horribly wrong.
Dismiss - It's a counter, and a cantrip!
I'd put some artifact mana in the deck. Here's a few, mostly, budget friendly options.
Coldsteel Heart
Everflowing Chalice
Sky Diamond
Mind Stone
Pristine Talisman
Favorable Winds might tickle your funny bone too.
Some other cute cards:
Standstill - Flavor text says it all. "Take your time". Next guy to cast a spell gives his opponent 3 cards. LOL.
Hesitation - Counter the next spell played. It won't ever hit anything important (unless your opponent is drunk or something), but it can buy you a turn a lot of the time.
Zur's Weirding - Drop this when you have a superior position and a few counters in hand, then trollolol your way to victory. "No you may not draw any more cards". Who cares if they deny your draws, you got the high ground, and it costs them life to do it. This can be dangerous, but it's very strong. Might be wins more in your deck though.
Sunder - Funniest when played on an opponent's turn right after a land drop or EOT so they have to discard. Goes well with Reliquary Tower. Your opponent wanted a full hand right? Grant their wish! Style points for following it up with Cyclonic Rift overload!
Parallax Tide - This little beast will tempo-screw an opponent for a few turns. If it leaves play with activations on the stack, the lands stay gone. Nobody who knows the card likes to see it across the table, and those who don't know will learn to hate it quickly.
Portent - It's like Ponder's evil cousin. Trollolol, I'm gonna rearrange your top 3 and draw a card.
Ghost Quarter - In french, it's only a matter of time before you run into Boseiju, Who Shelters All and/or Cavern of Souls. They will give you fits, so make sure you have something to kill them. This is the most budget-friendly, yet still viable option.
Tectonic Edge - Same purpose as above, but will hit the wallet a fair bit harder. Still, if you want to play to win, this is a virtual requirement.
Encroaching Wastes - Not viable in french, but it's better than nothing.
Torpor Orb - Turn off those annoying utility ETB creatures that are so popular in EDH.
Karona, Warden of AlcatrazWUBRG
The EPIC EDHWUBRG
Sun Quan Aggro1U
Animar GoodstuffRUG
Horobi MBCB
Medomai NerfWU
Saffi EriksdotterGW
Zur (CF)WUB
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
Thanks for the advice. I don't know how many counters I want that are more like "tempo" plays like daze and force spike, as I do play the deck against other decks that don't strictly follow the french rules, but you do have a point; the deck wants more counters and less bounce.
In any case, I played a few games tonight, and I also felt like I didn't have enough card draw or ramp. So here are some cuts...
- Mystical Tutor (usually this just gets fact or fiction, which is fine but not amazing when 2 cards are spent on it, and cutting this opens up some more budget)
- Windreader Sphinx (probably just better to hope for a jin gitaxias to get out from the polymorph)
- Sol ring (french banned rofl)
- whiplash trap (should cut down on the unsummon creature effects because many creatures have etb value)
- 1 island (for ghost quarter)
- vapor snag (I have two 1-mana spells that deal with creatures, and the 1 life loss isn't very important)
+ Everflowing chalice (some ramp)
+ Star compass (something I had on me that ramped, yes I somehow do not have mind stone and the like)
+ dismiss (eventually i'll have enough cards that do their best impression of cryptic command)
+ ghost quarter (yes you are definitely right, boseiju and cavern are cards and this is the only low-budget way to deal with them here)
+ ancestral vision (right now it's within budget, and I think a cheap card that helps draw is nice)
+ dispel (Not really sure, but because most kill spells are instants, this can help protect talrand at 1 mana and make a drake. also is nice in counter wars).
what are your opinions on the very narrow hard counters, like dispel or steel sabotage?
WUBRGProgenitus
URGMaelstrom Wanderer
WUBOloro, Ageless Ascetic
WURZedruu, the Greathearted
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher ($100)
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician ($100)
UGKruphix, God of Horizons ($100)(retired)UTalrand, Sky Summoner (French 1v1, $100)
You're welcome.
French EDH is all about tempo.
Other interesting temp-counters include
Memory Lapse - Screws up their next draw and slows them down a turn.
Delay - Pretty funny in a counter war.
Sage's Dousing - Mana Leak with a cantrip (assuming you have a wizard handy)
I'm not sure that cutting a tutor is a good idea. If you're most often using it to find FoF, then I would argue that you probably haven't been facing many tough matchups. If you get into some more competitive situations, I think you'll find that you start tutoring for other stuff. There's a reason why french bans Vamp Tutor and Seal. Pulling a tutor is a bit like drawing exactly what you want/need. But remember that tutors are only as good as your toolbox.
You might recall I suggested Torpor Orb for that very reason.
Yeah, it is kinda narrow. Unsummon effects are only really good for tempo plays or pseudo-removal with a counter in hand.
For ramp, I'd start with the blue options I mentioned. Star Compass might seem good, but the main problem I have with it is it's pretty useless after a 'Geddon effect resolves. Sky Diamond may be harder to find, but it's consistent.
How did I miss that one? Derp. Good call.
Dispel is fine. Like you said, it wins counter-wars and stops a lot of removal spells. If it doesn't find a target, something went VERY weird or you're probably facing Animar. If the latter shows up, you might be in trouble.
Steel Sabotage is more of a vintage card. It's really a meta call. If artifact ramp and equipment are rampant in your meta, I say slam it and go. If not, you might be better off with something more general purpose.
Karona, Warden of AlcatrazWUBRG
The EPIC EDHWUBRG
Sun Quan Aggro1U
Animar GoodstuffRUG
Horobi MBCB
Medomai NerfWU
Saffi EriksdotterGW
Zur (CF)WUB
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
You're right about mystical tutor, but right now my spell toolbox isn't that large. I guess it can get polymorph though.
Yeah, I was probably going to add a couple better 2-mana ramp options, it's just that star compass was something I randomly had in my collection. Most of these ramp options aren't too expensive, it'll just be annoying trying to find them.
Not sure hwo good memory lapse is since whatever I counter will be back. Delay could be interesting because if it counters their general I wonder if they'll actually suspend it or just exile it to recast it earlier (at a higher mana cost).
WUBRGProgenitus
URGMaelstrom Wanderer
WUBOloro, Ageless Ascetic
WURZedruu, the Greathearted
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher ($100)
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician ($100)
UGKruphix, God of Horizons ($100)(retired)UTalrand, Sky Summoner (French 1v1, $100)
Memory Lapse isn't good because it stops their spell cold, it's good because it makes them waste a turn re-casting the spell and not drawing a new card. It's not meant to be a hard counter, more of a pseudo-Time Walk.
Allowing your general to be suspended is stupidly risky. If the "cast me" trigger gets countered (Time Stop, Stifle, Trickbind, Voidslime) or the spell can't be cast (Teferi, Rule of Law, Arcane Laboratory, Curse of Exhaustion, Trinisphere, etc), they will permanently lose access to it. Suspend is an interesting mechanic with a handful of exotic weaknesses.
Karona, Warden of AlcatrazWUBRG
The EPIC EDHWUBRG
Sun Quan Aggro1U
Animar GoodstuffRUG
Horobi MBCB
Medomai NerfWU
Saffi EriksdotterGW
Zur (CF)WUB
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
WUBRGProgenitus
URGMaelstrom Wanderer
WUBOloro, Ageless Ascetic
WURZedruu, the Greathearted
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher ($100)
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician ($100)
UGKruphix, God of Horizons ($100)(retired)UTalrand, Sky Summoner (French 1v1, $100)
I'm probably going to catch some heat for saying this, but here goes. In *SOME* ways Memory Lapse is better than Remand.
Same mana cost, similar effect.
Remand replaces itself by drawing you a card
Memory Lapse "replaces" itself by screwing the player's next draw
Where Memory Lapse starts to look really good is that you get to untap before they recast the spell (barring flash/instants)
When used in concert with a Winter Orb effect, it becomes a lot meaner.
Delay is only a hard counter with respect to counter wars and MAYBE generals. Every other situation treats it as just a tempo screw unless you're set up to turn off or mess with suspend.
Karona, Warden of AlcatrazWUBRG
The EPIC EDHWUBRG
Sun Quan Aggro1U
Animar GoodstuffRUG
Horobi MBCB
Medomai NerfWU
Saffi EriksdotterGW
Zur (CF)WUB
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
WUBRGProgenitus
URGMaelstrom Wanderer
WUBOloro, Ageless Ascetic
WURZedruu, the Greathearted
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher ($100)
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician ($100)
UGKruphix, God of Horizons ($100)(retired)UTalrand, Sky Summoner (French 1v1, $100)
- elixir of immortality (I guess it's okay if one of my fatties gets milled and I want polymorph/proteus staff for it, but this feels very weak otherwise)
- sleight of hand (fine card but at ~$2 I think I can get a different cantrip. For reference, mystical tutor runs $3-4...)
- riptide laboratory (at ~$3 and all it does is bounce talrand at 3 mana)
+ 2 island (this deck has serious problems missing land drops despite all the cantrips, and another island is replacing riptide lab)
+ clairvoyance (a bad peek, which is a bad gitaxian probe, but being able to plan out multiple turns ahead is cool)
other potential cuts
- repeal? It cantrips, but it takes alot of mana to bounce something big. However killing tokens for 1 mana and cantripping is pretty brutal, so there's certainly merit to the card.
- capsize/forbid? They have buyback, but the costs are pretty hefty.
- is rhystic study worth it in 1v1? In multiplayer there are gonna be more chances that players skip paying the 1, but in 1v1 it seems players will more often pay the 1, which is less exciting. I could maybe try mystic remora, despite the cumulative upkeep it does cost only 1 and nobody is going to pay 4 unless it's extremely late in the game.
- cyclonic rift? overloading is still nice and at base it's a slightly weaker disperse (since it can't target my stuff if I ever want to), but the overloading feels less brutal in 1v1 than it does in multiplayer, and it also runs at ~$4.
WUBRGProgenitus
URGMaelstrom Wanderer
WUBOloro, Ageless Ascetic
WURZedruu, the Greathearted
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher ($100)
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician ($100)
UGKruphix, God of Horizons ($100)(retired)UTalrand, Sky Summoner (French 1v1, $100)
Elixir is good in long games. It lets you outlast your opponent and gives you a pretty good out to mill. But in the end, it's not really helping you win, and you seem to have a lot of other answers to mill anyway. The 5 life is largely irrelevant in EDH, except in those close games where you win by the skin of your teeth.
I would cut Opt before SleightDerp, check that. Opt is instant, and effectively "Scry 1, draw a card."
I think I agree with this call.
I can see why you would. It's not all that exciting when the only wizard you have is your genearl. In a LONG LONG game, you'll see it pay off, but short of turn 17 and the 4th casting of your general, you're liable to be pretty happy without it.
Gotta keep your land count up.
Interesting. It's still an instant, and still 1 mana. But I think you may have enough cantrips. The tricky part is balancing cantrips with business spells. Drawing cards is great, but it doesn't win you games.
I think you have a good enough bounce suite so drop this one. I've never found it tempting for EDH.
Capsize is good enough to keep. In long games, it gets really stupid. You just hit their highest CMC permanent and if they want to keep it, they have to re-cast it again, which means they are tapping a ton of mana to keep it out. All the while you're accumulating your drake tokens. Win/win.
Forbid is solid, but without Bident/Piracy, it will be a little disappointing. Once you stick one of those, it's a brick house.
players will more often pay the 1, which is less exciting. I could maybe try mystic remora, despite the cumulative upkeep it does cost only 1 and nobody is going to pay 4 unless it's extremely late in the game.[/quote]
I think you're missing the point of the card. It's not ONLY for drawing cards. It gives you cards OR slows down your opponent(s). Either way, I would be pretty happy.
Overloading Cyclonic Rift is ANUS SHATTERING in the late game (the flavor text is quite accurate, it's an unnatural disaster). Few plays can compare with it. EOT, it typically induces mass discard. In response to a devotion trigger/spell, it effectively counters it. Early game it can trip an opponent up. Mid-combat, it's like a Fog with teeth. This thing is flixible (not as flexible as Cryptic, but we can't all be $50+ cards now can we?) and the only time it becomes useless is when all your opponents have virtually no board presence, in which case you're already winning.
I have a Mono-Blue Aggro EDH where I tried to keep the curve low. This card is one of two 7-drops still in the list. I'm thinking of cutting the other one.
Some cuts I might make:
Thought Scour - You have no way to really abuse the bin, no flashback to speak of, and are unequipped to mill out an opponent. So the only thing this does to an opponent is occasionally luck you into value or screw up top-deck manipulation.
Coat of Arms - This one is one hell of a finisher, but it may be unnecessary. Ur call.
Stormtide Leviathan - This thing never really managed to impress me. It comes down pretty late, so it tends to rot in your hand. I never liked drawing this thing because I never got to the point of being able to play it, I usually win, lose, or don't draw it. However, I am referring to my experiences with it in an aggro deck.
An updated list would be helpful.
Karona, Warden of AlcatrazWUBRG
The EPIC EDHWUBRG
Sun Quan Aggro1U
Animar GoodstuffRUG
Horobi MBCB
Medomai NerfWU
Saffi EriksdotterGW
Zur (CF)WUB
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
Yes, I'll definitely cut thought scour for another counter or torpor orb or mystical tutor.
I've never been able to play coat of arms yet so I can't say how good it is. I may have enough "useful with mass drakes" cards already though (bident, piracy, Distant melody), although since it basically ends the game with multiple drakes out (rather than the other three which durdle with card draw), I'm not quite sure. Coat of arms is the one card which can be dead though if the opponent has a token theme too or such.
Stormtide leviathan is mostly in there for its moat effect. However in most cases I do want polymorph/proteus staff to hit tidespout tyrant or jin gitaxias over leviathan. I'm just worried that I may not have creatures for polymorph with just 2 targets. Maybe they get milled or stuck in my hand, or they get into play and then die.
I'll cut thought scour and repeal for mystical tutor and torpor orb. Updated list in OP. The budget is right at $98.81 at low price, so it's just barely under. Although double checking, it's largely because the site uses the From the Exiled version which is $17-18, whereas 6th and Mirage versions are ~$4.
I'm also surprised this hasn't been moved to the 1v1 board yet >_>
WUBRGProgenitus
URGMaelstrom Wanderer
WUBOloro, Ageless Ascetic
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BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher ($100)
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician ($100)
UGKruphix, God of Horizons ($100)(retired)UTalrand, Sky Summoner (French 1v1, $100)
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
WUBRGProgenitus
URGMaelstrom Wanderer
WUBOloro, Ageless Ascetic
WURZedruu, the Greathearted
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher ($100)
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician ($100)
UGKruphix, God of Horizons ($100)(retired)UTalrand, Sky Summoner (French 1v1, $100)
WUBRGProgenitus
URGMaelstrom Wanderer
WUBOloro, Ageless Ascetic
WURZedruu, the Greathearted
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher ($100)
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician ($100)
UGKruphix, God of Horizons ($100)(retired)UTalrand, Sky Summoner (French 1v1, $100)
WUBRGProgenitus
URGMaelstrom Wanderer
WUBOloro, Ageless Ascetic
WURZedruu, the Greathearted
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher ($100)
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician ($100)
UGKruphix, God of Horizons ($100)(retired)UTalrand, Sky Summoner (French 1v1, $100)
Absolutely! Lightning Greaves is standard fare in EDH. Very few (how many have haste and shroud/troll shroud?) generals would not benefit from it.
It seems like a good idea. Most decks, and especially MUC decks, like to draw lots of cards. Why would yours be any different? You can even repeatedly cast it for X = 0 in a pinch to avoid decking out. Plus you can use it offensively to finish off an opponent when they run low on cards in library and you are big on mana. I think that's a pretty solid definition of "good". EOT, deck you out. Game!
Karona, Warden of AlcatrazWUBRG
The EPIC EDHWUBRG
Sun Quan Aggro1U
Animar GoodstuffRUG
Horobi MBCB
Medomai NerfWU
Saffi EriksdotterGW
Zur (CF)WUB
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
WUBRGProgenitus
URGMaelstrom Wanderer
WUBOloro, Ageless Ascetic
WURZedruu, the Greathearted
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher ($100)
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician ($100)
UGKruphix, God of Horizons ($100)(retired)UTalrand, Sky Summoner (French 1v1, $100)