Pure theorycrafting because I was bored. May test it on Cockatrice later on. Not sure. EDIT: Changed commander to Isao because my playgroup hasn't been too pleased with Thrun and has made me Prime Enemy #1 as a result. I'm using Isao to lower the threat level a bit until I can even the deck's kinks out.
Your list was actually a big inspiration for this deck. :3
Of those that you listed, I like Soul's Majesty and possibly Garruk, Primal Hunter - my only concern about the latter is that planeswalkers have an abnormally short lifetime in my playgroup, even less so than in others. (It's very rare for them to survive once around the table.)
Also, this is a semi-budget deck; so although I'll be testing online first, I plan on eventually accruing the missing cards for it to put into a "side pool" with my other IRL mono-G decks. (I like green cards, who'd a thunk it?) Thus, although both Berserk and Dilu are very good, they're also both way outside my budget and too niche to this setup: I can't justify dropping ~$150 on two cards just yet, and probably not for a while. Right now I'd rather figure out what'd fit better in a real-life scenario.
Finally, any suggestions at what seems sub-optimal in my current list, from what you've experienced?
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EDH/Commander
(W/U)(W/U)Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage: The New da Vinci (historic control)
(W/B)(W/B)Teysa Karlov: Death Be Not Kind (aristocrats)
(R/G)(R/G)Hallar, the Firefletcher: Yavimaya Burning (kicker and counters)
(B/G)(G/U)Sidisi, Brood Tyrant: Queen of the Damned (dredge)
Maybe Build
(W/U)(U/B)Aminatou, the Fateshifter: And a Child Shall Lead Them (superfriends)
There is a lot of flying in my meta and I'm rocking Godo voltron. I've fallen in love with moonsilver spear as a heck of a token generator. I get a little more mileage due to two attack steps but first strike isn't irrelevant and 4/4 flying angels aren't either.
You have quite a bit of ramp at the 3-4 mana range. I try for the most part to ramp into thrun as I keep a fairly low curve. My question would be what are you trying to ramp into that you would spend 3-4 mana ramping for? These type of ramp effects dont ramp you into thrun and can be awkward when considering ramping instead of thrun or ramping after thrun. I would suggest shooting for the 1-2 mana ramp instead.
Fauna Shaman - being sort of a low creature count deck, she is very fragile and its hard to have the creature in hand to cycle off for her. I would suggest cutting her for another tutor or just cutting her for another card for the most part.
Sword of Light and Shadow - its... ok but its not very aggressive and it depends a lot on how many creatures you run as to how effective it might be. If you dont own it already, I really wouldnt put the money into it. Its ok... but its sort of not as aggressive as I would like it to be in general.
Melira, Sylvok Outcast I have to sort of assume there is something in your meta you are running this for? It just seems like a really odd card to include.
Spider Umbra reach is a little awkward. If you are having issues with flyers I would suggest perhaps Storm Front instead. I have had good luck with Snake Umbra though as a draw effect / totem armor.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Re: ramp - Good point. My other deck (well, mainly Yeva) have generally had higher overall curves and could afford some of the more expensive ramp. Would any combination of Rampant Growth, Explore and Emerald Medallion work?
Melira, Sylvok Outcast - Her inclusion's primarily meta-dependent, but she's not entirely necessary. Fauna Shaman - Point taken. She seems to survive more often than not for me, though: I've had pretty good luck in my Yeva deck with her, and some of the more niche protection effects in the list are creature-based. Won't be sad to cut her, though. Sword of Light and Shadow - Mainly in here for the pro-white and pro-black. Spider Umbra - My thoughts behind this was that it's cheap insurance against any board wipes: the reach isn't as important as being able to survive a Wrath of God. Haven't seen Storm Front before, though. I may want to look into it.
@happier: 8 to both play and equip the spear seems a bit... intensive.
Horn of Ramos, Wood Elves, Yavimaya Dryad, and Skyshroud Claim still feel like they could go in my mind. I think Cultivate / Kodama's are probably the better options in the above 2 mana ramp that you run that you could consider keeping in. I like the Wood Elf varients but honestly, without creature abuse like Skullclamp and such you are at best getting an edict sac and I would say that sort of thing is really meta dependant still. I myself run manlands like Inkmoth Nexus as my edict outs. Horn of Ramos seems really sub optimal in my opinion.
The importance of ramp after Thrun is in play is a lot less prevalent. You could easily turn some of this into additional card draw.
Garruk, Primal Hunter - you mentioned earlier that you were worried about him living through additional turns. I can say I have almost never played him and not used his -3 in the same turn in this deck. I use him as a more versatile Soul's Majesty as they cost the same mana to use at the same speed but you could if you wanted use Garruk's +1 ability if you really felt like it. Otherwise, I treet him as another Soul's Majesty as that is how I use him.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
My thoughts on Horn of Ramos was that it'd be better than, say, Moss Diamond if I got it out turn 3+, and could always be sac'd for that extra bit of mana. Think I have enough sac outlets to avoid tucks, though, so I'll drop Momentous Fall. (And my meta does have enough opposing sac effects for me to want to have a few extra bodies floating around.)
Also, since I have a lot of artifacts, maybe Ancient Stirrings could be fun to grab something? Not sure if it'd be worth anything in the long run, but just had a random thought.
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EDH/Commander
(W/U)(W/U)Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage: The New da Vinci (historic control)
(W/B)(W/B)Teysa Karlov: Death Be Not Kind (aristocrats)
(R/G)(R/G)Hallar, the Firefletcher: Yavimaya Burning (kicker and counters)
(B/G)(G/U)Sidisi, Brood Tyrant: Queen of the Damned (dredge)
Maybe Build
(W/U)(U/B)Aminatou, the Fateshifter: And a Child Shall Lead Them (superfriends)
I did consider Ancient Stirrings myself but on average it doesn't really offer much for versatility in what you choose on a regular basis. I felt that it was better to just try to draw a few cards usually but the mana cost on Stirrings is very low so it could be alright.
You might like Gaea's Touch as well. It can still ramp into a faster Thrun and works better with less utility lands and can be sacrificed in a pinch for the cost of a regen.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
EDITS:
- Explore, + Gaea's Touch
- Wickerbough Elder, + Oxidize(Low curves are nice. Only thing is that I can't use a creature tutor to grab it: if that becomes a problem, I'll swap it for Viridian Zealot. Also getting the full art version, which I like too much to be using something better. :3)
- Forest, + Dryad Arbor(A friend from Indiana came to visit and was selling off his collection. Bought one off of him on instinct, because why pay for shipping?)
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EDH/Commander
(W/U)(W/U)Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage: The New da Vinci (historic control)
(W/B)(W/B)Teysa Karlov: Death Be Not Kind (aristocrats)
(R/G)(R/G)Hallar, the Firefletcher: Yavimaya Burning (kicker and counters)
(B/G)(G/U)Sidisi, Brood Tyrant: Queen of the Damned (dredge)
Maybe Build
(W/U)(U/B)Aminatou, the Fateshifter: And a Child Shall Lead Them (superfriends)
Still testing it a bit. Haven't gotten enough conclusive evidence yet: most/all of the changes I've made so far have been through friends' advice.
(LATE) EDITS:
- Hall of the Bandit Lord, + Forest
- Tower of the Magistrate, + Forest (Both budgetary concerns - they're expensive for lands that are rather niche.)
- O-Naginata, Skullclamp(The naginata's a subpar draw in the late game, and there are many creatures that can be clamped once they've served their purpose.)
EDITS:
- Magus of the Vineyard, + Carpet of Flowers(Magus proved to be exactly what I feared: a creature that helped my opponents out more than it did myself. Carpet's good in my meta because I see a lot of blue floating around.)
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EDH/Commander
(W/U)(W/U)Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage: The New da Vinci (historic control)
(W/B)(W/B)Teysa Karlov: Death Be Not Kind (aristocrats)
(R/G)(R/G)Hallar, the Firefletcher: Yavimaya Burning (kicker and counters)
(B/G)(G/U)Sidisi, Brood Tyrant: Queen of the Damned (dredge)
Maybe Build
(W/U)(U/B)Aminatou, the Fateshifter: And a Child Shall Lead Them (superfriends)
Lots of edits made, as well as changing the commander to Isao, partially to reduce the threat level and partially due to personal preference. Need help cutting ~5 of the weaker equipment/auras for some more utility pieces.
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EDH/Commander
(W/U)(W/U)Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage: The New da Vinci (historic control)
(W/B)(W/B)Teysa Karlov: Death Be Not Kind (aristocrats)
(R/G)(R/G)Hallar, the Firefletcher: Yavimaya Burning (kicker and counters)
(B/G)(G/U)Sidisi, Brood Tyrant: Queen of the Damned (dredge)
Maybe Build
(W/U)(U/B)Aminatou, the Fateshifter: And a Child Shall Lead Them (superfriends)
Lots of edits made, as well as changing the commander to Isao, partially to reduce the threat level and partially due to personal preference. Need help cutting ~5 of the weaker equipment/auras for some more utility pieces.
Kamahl, Fist of Krosa generally I would want to see him in a swarm based deck rather than a voltron. He costs too much for his overruns. He is a wrath deterrant but he doesnt come online until very late at which point it seems like its not a strong enough effect to me. Grafted Exoskeleton its an all or nothing effect which I dont like. If you slap someone for 8 poison and then they answer it, you esssentially loose out on your commander damage. I dont like splitting my damage sources which is why I dont like it much outside of a poison deck. It also doesnt give any evasion or card advantage. Skullclamp you dont have enough tokens and or utility creatures in here. You really cant use it on your commander either other than as a small p/t shift assuming you have more buffs on him already. I dont think this is going to work well with your creature count or general strategy. Kusari-Gama I feel like its a bit overpriced for what it does and its also usually unlikely for people to have swarms of blockers to the point where this is effective. Giving flying / unblockable is usually just as relevant if not more because if they drop blockers one at a time this sort of sucks. Alpha Authority its, not that impressive to me I guess. I would usually rather respond to an issue with indestructable or hexproof than pay 2 mana for an enchantment to do it. You might also just consider Asceticism as it cuts off their targeting options and doesnt leave you with a gap of time where they can shoot him down in response to a spell.
Yeah, I know. The hatred against Thrun was frankly astounding. I liked playing him, but I don't want to be as big a target. Hence the change.
Re: changes - Those are all good points. I guess my only thought was that since Isao can regenerate and since my group runs a lot of odd forms of removal, having hexproof would limit the ways he can be dealt with, and Alpha Authority makes him difficult to block to boot. Do you think indestructability is better? If so, I'll run Withstand Death and Shield of Kaldra and figure out some stuff to swap out.
Possible additions:
- Lignify: Gets rid of those really annoying creatures in my playgroup (I'm looking at you, Blightsteel).
- Mwonvuli Acid-Moss and/or Reap and Sow: Targeted land destruction is always a nice thing, particularly because people in my group love Mystifying Maze.
- Vines of Vastwood: Similar to Ranger's Guile, but can punch through that extra bit of damage.
- Wall of Roots: Ramp and block at the same time?
- Silent Arbiter: Was in the original list but was cut due to potential cost concerns. A colorless Dueling Grounds will certainly help.
- Spike Weaver: Fog machine!
Asceticism's a possibility, but the only thing is that the CMC seems a bit too high. I'll try fitting it in, though.
Re: Kusari-Gama: ...crap. Misread it all this time. Thought it could hit both attacking and blocking creatures.
EDIT: Changed commander to Isao because my playgroup hasn't been too pleased with Thrun and has made me Prime Enemy #1 as a result. I'm using Isao to lower the threat level a bit until I can even the deck's kinks out.
3 Isao, Enlightened Bushi
Creatures
1 Diligent Farmhand
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
2 Lotus Cobra
2 Myr Retriever
2 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Silhana Ledgewalker
3 Boon Satyr
3 Eternal Witness
3 Wood Elves
4 Chameleon Colossus
5 Acidic Slime
5 Arashi, the Sky Asunder
5 Seedborn Muse
5 Silklash Spider
6 Brutalizer Exarch
6 Vigor
Instants
1 Oxidize
1 Vines of Vastwood
1 Worldly Tutor
2 Deglamer
2 Spring Cleaning
2 Unravel the Æther
3 Beast Within
3 Krosan Grip
3 Lace with Moonglove
1 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Nature's Lore
2 Rampant Growth
2 Regrowth
2 Time of Need
3 Kodama's Reach
3 Recollect
3 Recross the Paths
4 Harmonize
4 Increasing Savagery
4 Reap and Sow
4 Skyshroud Claim
5 Hunter's Prowess
5 Primal Command
6 Tower Above
Enchantments
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Rancor
1 Spider Umbra
2 Canopy Cover
2 Gaea's Touch
2 Sylvan Library
3 Snake Umbra
3 Vow of Wildness
4 Bear Umbra
Artifacts
1 Infiltration Lens
1 Sol Ring
2 Swiftfoot Boots
2 Trailblazer's Boots
3 Champion's Helm
3 Darksteel Plate
3 Fireshrieker
3 Kusari-Gama
3 Loxodon Warhammer
3 Strata Scythe
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Sword of Vengeance
25 Forest
1 Buried Ruin
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Homeward Path
1 Mosswort Bridge
1 Mystifying Maze
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Rogue's Passage
1 Slippery Karst
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Treetop Village
1 Berserk
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Cobbled Wings
1 Crawlspace
1 Dawntreader Elk
1 Defense Grid
1 Duplicant
1 Hunter's Prowess
1 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
1 Ordeal of Nylea
1 Predator Ooze
1 Prey Upon
1 Recross the Paths
1 Riding the Dilu Horse
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sylvan Tutor
1 Three Visits
1 Tower Above
1 Utopia Sprawl
1 Wild Growth
- Skullclamp, + Reap and Sow
- Kamahl, Fist of Krosa; + Vines of Vastwood
- Alpha Authority, + Canopy Cover
- Grafted Exoskeleton, + Seedborn Muse
- Forest, + Thespian's Stage
Riding the Dilu Horse and Berserk are great buffs too for Thrun. Berserk is awkward in the fact that you can regen through the kill effect too lol.
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[Modern] Allies
Of those that you listed, I like Soul's Majesty and possibly Garruk, Primal Hunter - my only concern about the latter is that planeswalkers have an abnormally short lifetime in my playgroup, even less so than in others. (It's very rare for them to survive once around the table.)
Also, this is a semi-budget deck; so although I'll be testing online first, I plan on eventually accruing the missing cards for it to put into a "side pool" with my other IRL mono-G decks. (I like green cards, who'd a thunk it?) Thus, although both Berserk and Dilu are very good, they're also both way outside my budget and too niche to this setup: I can't justify dropping ~$150 on two cards just yet, and probably not for a while. Right now I'd rather figure out what'd fit better in a real-life scenario.
Finally, any suggestions at what seems sub-optimal in my current list, from what you've experienced?
Fauna Shaman - being sort of a low creature count deck, she is very fragile and its hard to have the creature in hand to cycle off for her. I would suggest cutting her for another tutor or just cutting her for another card for the most part.
Sword of Light and Shadow - its... ok but its not very aggressive and it depends a lot on how many creatures you run as to how effective it might be. If you dont own it already, I really wouldnt put the money into it. Its ok... but its sort of not as aggressive as I would like it to be in general.
Melira, Sylvok Outcast I have to sort of assume there is something in your meta you are running this for? It just seems like a really odd card to include.
Spider Umbra reach is a little awkward. If you are having issues with flyers I would suggest perhaps Storm Front instead. I have had good luck with Snake Umbra though as a draw effect / totem armor.
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[Modern] Allies
Melira, Sylvok Outcast - Her inclusion's primarily meta-dependent, but she's not entirely necessary.
Fauna Shaman - Point taken. She seems to survive more often than not for me, though: I've had pretty good luck in my Yeva deck with her, and some of the more niche protection effects in the list are creature-based. Won't be sad to cut her, though.
Sword of Light and Shadow - Mainly in here for the pro-white and pro-black.
Spider Umbra - My thoughts behind this was that it's cheap insurance against any board wipes: the reach isn't as important as being able to survive a Wrath of God. Haven't seen Storm Front before, though. I may want to look into it.
@happier: 8 to both play and equip the spear seems a bit... intensive.
EDIT: Let's look at these changes.
- Fauna Shaman, + Rampant Growth
- Farhaven Elf, + Explore
The importance of ramp after Thrun is in play is a lot less prevalent. You could easily turn some of this into additional card draw.
Garruk, Primal Hunter - you mentioned earlier that you were worried about him living through additional turns. I can say I have almost never played him and not used his -3 in the same turn in this deck. I use him as a more versatile Soul's Majesty as they cost the same mana to use at the same speed but you could if you wanted use Garruk's +1 ability if you really felt like it. Otherwise, I treet him as another Soul's Majesty as that is how I use him.
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[Modern] Allies
- Momentous Fall, + Soul's Majesty
Also, since I have a lot of artifacts, maybe Ancient Stirrings could be fun to grab something? Not sure if it'd be worth anything in the long run, but just had a random thought.
You might like Gaea's Touch as well. It can still ramp into a faster Thrun and works better with less utility lands and can be sacrificed in a pinch for the cost of a regen.
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[Modern] Allies
- Explore, + Gaea's Touch
- Wickerbough Elder, + Oxidize (Low curves are nice. Only thing is that I can't use a creature tutor to grab it: if that becomes a problem, I'll swap it for Viridian Zealot. Also getting the full art version, which I like too much to be using something better. :3)
- Forest, + Dryad Arbor (A friend from Indiana came to visit and was selling off his collection. Bought one off of him on instinct, because why pay for shipping?)
- Horn of Ramos, + Silent Arbiter
- Mask of Memory, + Kusari-Gama
- Melira, Sylvok Outcast, + Magus of the Vineyard
- Yavimaya Dryad, + Lotus Cobra
- Summoner's Pact, + Pattern of Rebirth
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[Modern] Allies
(LATE) EDITS:
- Hall of the Bandit Lord, + Forest
- Tower of the Magistrate, + Forest (Both budgetary concerns - they're expensive for lands that are rather niche.)
- O-Naginata, Skullclamp (The naginata's a subpar draw in the late game, and there are many creatures that can be clamped once they've served their purpose.)
- Magus of the Vineyard, + Carpet of Flowers (Magus proved to be exactly what I feared: a creature that helped my opponents out more than it did myself. Carpet's good in my meta because I see a lot of blue floating around.)
Kamahl, Fist of Krosa generally I would want to see him in a swarm based deck rather than a voltron. He costs too much for his overruns. He is a wrath deterrant but he doesnt come online until very late at which point it seems like its not a strong enough effect to me.
Grafted Exoskeleton its an all or nothing effect which I dont like. If you slap someone for 8 poison and then they answer it, you esssentially loose out on your commander damage. I dont like splitting my damage sources which is why I dont like it much outside of a poison deck. It also doesnt give any evasion or card advantage.
Skullclamp you dont have enough tokens and or utility creatures in here. You really cant use it on your commander either other than as a small p/t shift assuming you have more buffs on him already. I dont think this is going to work well with your creature count or general strategy.
Kusari-Gama I feel like its a bit overpriced for what it does and its also usually unlikely for people to have swarms of blockers to the point where this is effective. Giving flying / unblockable is usually just as relevant if not more because if they drop blockers one at a time this sort of sucks.
Alpha Authority its, not that impressive to me I guess. I would usually rather respond to an issue with indestructable or hexproof than pay 2 mana for an enchantment to do it. You might also just consider Asceticism as it cuts off their targeting options and doesnt leave you with a gap of time where they can shoot him down in response to a spell.
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[Modern] Allies
Yeah, I know. The hatred against Thrun was frankly astounding. I liked playing him, but I don't want to be as big a target. Hence the change.
Re: changes - Those are all good points. I guess my only thought was that since Isao can regenerate and since my group runs a lot of odd forms of removal, having hexproof would limit the ways he can be dealt with, and Alpha Authority makes him difficult to block to boot. Do you think indestructability is better? If so, I'll run Withstand Death and Shield of Kaldra and figure out some stuff to swap out.
Possible additions:
- Lignify: Gets rid of those really annoying creatures in my playgroup (I'm looking at you, Blightsteel).
- Mwonvuli Acid-Moss and/or Reap and Sow: Targeted land destruction is always a nice thing, particularly because people in my group love Mystifying Maze.
- Vines of Vastwood: Similar to Ranger's Guile, but can punch through that extra bit of damage.
- Wall of Roots: Ramp and block at the same time?
- Silent Arbiter: Was in the original list but was cut due to potential cost concerns. A colorless Dueling Grounds will certainly help.
- Spike Weaver: Fog machine!
Asceticism's a possibility, but the only thing is that the CMC seems a bit too high. I'll try fitting it in, though.
Re: Kusari-Gama: ...crap. Misread it all this time. Thought it could hit both attacking and blocking creatures.
Also made a few changes from last night, listed in the "Changes" spoiler on the first post.