MTG Salvation

Here is the decklist:


http://deckstats.net/decks/13369/72112-the-secret-of-mim-2-

Since mass removal isn't spurring any discussion, I will start with the mana base. I have come up with a basic skeleton:
Command Tower: if you are playing more than mono color, you are running this card.
Underground Sea, Bayou, Tropical Island: best duals in the game.
Watery Grave, Overgrown Tomb, Breeding Pool: second best duals.
9x Fetches: Color fixing/library manipulation. Because of this, it is safe to include Sensei's Divining Top in the list.
Strip Mine: I want at least one form of land based removal.
3x Basic lands, one of each: I will probably add more, but for now, that is the least amount that I want of each as they are good protection against Blood Moon and other nonbasic antagonizers. The only way I would go lower is if I played Hermit Druid, but I am not making combo.

Now my questions to you all are which is more effective: filter lands like Flooded Grove or the lands like Hinterland Harbor (I have no idea if they have a nickname)?

How many decent targets before I should run Academy Ruins?

When is Volrath's Stronghold worthwhile?

Why do people run Cavern of Souls in non tribal, non voltron decks (I have seen it come up in a bunch of BUG lists and I don't know why)?

Thanks!

So, after messing around with reanimator ideas, I came to the realization that I hate big creatures. Who knew? Thus I am going for a BUG control list that centers almost entirely around utility creatures (follow the link in the OP for the decklist). I haven't really seen anything like this on here so please let me know if you have any ideas/feedback.

Just a quick question too, but Leyline of Anticipation/Teferi/Prophet allow me to use Havengul Lich during other people's turns yes?

I'll look into a more constructive post after I get off work, but I wanted to note that I love the name of this thread

Quote from MrCoupon

I'll look into a more constructive post after I get off work, but I wanted to note that I love the name of this thread

FINALLY!! No one has gotten the reference thus far and I have had it for years now.

Omg that alter...so awesome!

What about Riptide Laboratory? You have a fair amount of wizards to abuse with it.

Quote from High_Hopes

Omg that alter...so awesome!

What about Riptide Laboratory? You have a fair amount of wizards to abuse with it.

You know, I considered it but, beyond saving some creatures, I only have 4 potential targets for it to be useful. I really wanted it to work too Thanks for the suggestion!

Quote from Damnosus

Quote from High_Hopes

Omg that alter...so awesome!

What about Riptide Laboratory? You have a fair amount of wizards to abuse with it.

You know, I considered it but, beyond saving some creatures, I only have 4 potential targets for it to be useful. I really wanted it to work too Thanks for the suggestion!

Snap, venser, trinket mage, huser, reset glen's persist.

Also saves Teferi/Prophet from exile/destroy effects, and can be used in combat tricks.

Hey, so a couple things:

First, I think it would help you to get more replies if you actually posted your decklist here rather than just linking us to the deckstats list. This may or may not be a priority for you, just trying to give the ol' heads up.

Secondly, crazy sweet alter. That is just gorgeous.

As for the deck, I think that Academy Ruins is definitely a good card for you to run. I think you should potentially look into Tolaria West, as it tutors for Mana Crypt, Pact of Negation, and all of your utility lands (seven is quite a few, so having another means to access the toolbox seems good!).

This is definitely a different take on Mimeo, I have not seen it built as a resource denial deck before. As such, I have a lot more questions than suggestions. Has Opposition been doing work for you? Outside of Prophet/Muse or Static Orb, it seems a bit bland in your deck. You do have a a good number of low drops, but I have always found it hard to utilize in EDH without a good way to swarm the board in order to lock people out. Otherwise I find it better to use cards like Rising Waters and Stasis and disruption. I should note that Opposition is likely my favorite Magic card of all-time, so I definitely support its use, I just wonder if it is optimal for your list.

I personally don't like Leyline of Anticipation, especially in a deck with both Teferi and Alchemist's Refuge. I don't like the card disadvantage in the first place, but when it is additionally a dead draw, it would drive me out of my mind.

Voidmage Husher is another card I wonder about. I have flirted with the idea of using it before, but it is too slow for fetch lands, not really easy to abuse, and doesn't hit triggered abilities (much more important in this format). So I guess I just wonder if it is perhaps a bit too cute of an idea with not quite enough substance?

Phyrexian Reclamation seems oddly out of place. Not that it's a card that doesn't do work, but there are so many more powerful options available in this format, and I look at the caliber of cards that you are running which make it pale in comparison... am I missing something? Along the same lines, Mystic Snake looks out of place to me. I love the card, I have been a huge fan since its printing, but outside of Deadeye Navigator it looks like a clunky, color intensive, high mana counterspell with a meaningless body. DEN tends to do FAR more degenerate things, also.

Aside from that... I sure haven't ever seen the deck function, but it is at the very least a collection of very good cards. Only you and the guys you play against know how cohesive the strategy is and how fluidly it operates. As far as suggestions to include, I am a bit at a loss. I am not an expert on Mimeo decks (I have not had one in a good while), and the one I had was a reanimator/BUG good cards build. But maybe those give you either some card slots to tinker with or at least an opportunity to explain why those work well in your strategy.

Quote from MrCoupon

Hey, so a couple things:

First, I think it would help you to get more replies if you actually posted your decklist here rather than just linking us to the deckstats list. This may or may not be a priority for you, just trying to give the ol' heads up.

Secondly, crazy sweet alter. That is just gorgeous.

As for the deck, I think that Academy Ruins is definitely a good card for you to run. I think you should potentially look into Tolaria West, as it tutors for Mana Crypt, Pact of Negation, and all of your utility lands (seven is quite a few, so having another means to access the toolbox seems good!).

This is definitely a different take on Mimeo, I have not seen it built as a resource denial deck before. As such, I have a lot more questions than suggestions. Has Opposition been doing work for you? Outside of Prophet/Muse or Static Orb, it seems a bit bland in your deck. You do have a a good number of low drops, but I have always found it hard to utilize in EDH without a good way to swarm the board in order to lock people out. Otherwise I find it better to use cards like Rising Waters and Stasis and disruption. I should note that Opposition is likely my favorite Magic card of all-time, so I definitely support its use, I just wonder if it is optimal for your list.

I personally don't like Leyline of Anticipation, especially in a deck with both Teferi and Alchemist's Refuge. I don't like the card disadvantage in the first place, but when it is additionally a dead draw, it would drive me out of my mind.

Voidmage Husher is another card I wonder about. I have flirted with the idea of using it before, but it is too slow for fetch lands, not really easy to abuse, and doesn't hit triggered abilities (much more important in this format). So I guess I just wonder if it is perhaps a bit too cute of an idea with not quite enough substance?

Phyrexian Reclamation seems oddly out of place. Not that it's a card that doesn't do work, but there are so many more powerful options available in this format, and I look at the caliber of cards that you are running which make it pale in comparison... am I missing something? Along the same lines, Mystic Snake looks out of place to me. I love the card, I have been a huge fan since its printing, but outside of Deadeye Navigator it looks like a clunky, color intensive, high mana counterspell with a meaningless body. DEN tends to do FAR more degenerate things, also.

Aside from that... I sure haven't ever seen the deck function, but it is at the very least a collection of very good cards. Only you and the guys you play against know how cohesive the strategy is and how fluidly it operates. As far as suggestions to include, I am a bit at a loss. I am not an expert on Mimeo decks (I have not had one in a good while), and the one I had was a reanimator/BUG good cards build. But maybe those give you either some card slots to tinker with or at least an opportunity to explain why those work well in your strategy.

First off, thanks for a fantastic response. This is exactly what I was looking for to hone the deck. Onward!

I will post the full decklist, I have just been kinda lazy about it. Thankfully deckstats.net is far easier to move onto these forums than the original place that I wrote down decks, namely essentialmagic.com.

The alter is both a blessing and a curse: I love the bajeezus out of it especially as my wife got it for me. However, it kinda pigeonholes me into playing Mimeoplasm. Ultimately though, it is worth it.

I have used Tolaria West in the past and while it can be very good, it is also ridiculously slow. Dropping it at sorcery speed or playing it as an ETB Tapped just always felt wrong. Maybe I should give it another go, but I think Crop Rotation might be a better choice. Thoughts?

Opposition was added as less of a card that synergizes with the resource control and more of a card that allows my rather pathetically small creatures to compete with the standard fatties; usually Trinket Mage is just a fail chump blocker, but with Opposition he becomes useful. Do you think I should drop Static Orb for Rising Waters? Opposition actually works really well with both orbs as I can tap them at the end of the turn before mine to untap everything. Also stasis is a nombo with Muse and Prophet

I was just looking at the list and realized that Leyline was getting overly redundant. I have never been a huge fan of it, it just felt right. Thoughts on what to replace it with?

I have always loved the concept of Voidmage Husher and I think the main reason I added it was to combat graveyard hate (Tormod's Crypt, Nihil Spellbomb, etc.) but it could definitely be dropped.

The main reason for Phyrexian Reclamation is to make cards like Survival of the Fittest and Fauna Shaman less detrimental than they could be. Sadly the utility creatures are not super redundant so being able to grab them back after pitching them or after a boardwipe is useful. I will agree with you about Mystic Snake though. It is just so...bleh. However, it is the only card that I can instant speed creature tutor for and then counter something. Suggestions for replacements would be welcome.

Currently I cannot tell you how it functions as I have yet to buy all the pieces/play with it. I always do a lot of brainstorming/theory crafting before I spend any money. There has been many a deck that I have given up on/saved money on due to this process...

Other cards I have been considering: Willbender, Perplexing Chimera, Hex Parasite+Decree of Silence, I wish I had some lifegain (no Deathrite Shaman doesn't count) but I can't figure out a good option.

@High_Hopes: you make a decent point and I think it might warrant testing. I am not totally sold, but close to it.

Again thanks!

I have used Tolaria West in the past and while it can be very good, it is also ridiculously slow. Dropping it at sorcery speed or playing it as an ETB Tapped just always felt wrong. Maybe I should give it another go, but I think Crop Rotation might be a better choice. Thoughts?

Tolaria West is never slow. If you want to boost tempo because you drew it early it transmutes for Mana Crypt for an immediate +2 mana. If you are ahead and looking to maintain, it becomes Pact of Negation, allowing you to continue to spend your resources. If you are in somewhat of a stalemate it becomes whichever utility land best advances your position. It finds Strip Mine. It can be dropped for mana if you are land screwed. One thing I would note is that I tend to include it in a spell slot rather than a land slot, with its ability to be a land as a random bonus.

Opposition actually works really well with both orbs as I can tap them at the end of the turn before mine to untap everything. Also stasis is a nombo with Muse and Prophet

Although Static Orb was erratad and reprinted since the rules update, Winter Orb never was. So tapping Winter Orb actually does nothing.

"In the first versions of the Magic rules, the static abilities of an artifact turned off if the artifact was tapped. When this rule changed, three cards (Winter Orb, Static Orb, and Howling Mine) were issued errata to maintain this functionality. Since then, Static Orb and Howling Mine have been reprinted with this errata, but Winter Orb never was... New wording... Players can't untap more than one land during their untap steps."

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/141a&page=2

In my experience if you are using opposition defensively in EDH, you are losing. The problem is, you have to tap creatures before they are declared as attackers. As such, if you start tapping a few key creatures so they can't attack you, your opponents wise up pretty quick and realize that if they ever want their creatures to see combat, either Opposition needs to die, or you need to die. At that point you better hope they pack enchantment removal. Since it represents a potential total upkeep lockdown, especially if you hit Muse/Prophet, players react accordingly, even if you are intending to use it just to tap potentially offensive creatures.

Do you think I should drop Static Orb for Rising Waters?

If you want to go resource denial, I would recommend simply playing both. When you are built to function on low mana, it is a HUGE advantage being under oppressive conditions like these. However, you have to make sure you have a stable board presence first! As such, given the nature of Mimeo, I included Entomb and Buried Alive, as well as some saucy targets like Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger, Sheoldred, Whispering One, and Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur, alongside a limited reanimation suite like Reanimate, Animate Dead, Necromancy, and Exhume. All of the reanimation spells are cheap, making them function favorably under lock pieces, and the threats they get are unmatchable under those conditions, meaning cheap spot removal has to happen sooner rather than later. If you are worried about the spot removal, grab Jin. If you are slightly behind on the board of if you hit Buried Alive, grab Sheoldred.

The main reason for Phyrexian Reclamation is to make cards like Survival of the Fittest and Fauna Shaman less detrimental than they could be.

Depending on how your meta feels about combos, rather than grind out a game in which you resolve survival, you can just add Palinchron to your list. DEN with Palinchron is infinite mana, and then grab Geth and mill everyone out. Easy set up with Survival, although it does require a few creatures in hand.

[quote]However, it is the only card that I can instant speed creature tutor for and then counter something[/c]

That can be true. If you have used a counter at some point, tutoring for Snapcaster does the job. Or if you have a flash enabler, tutoring for GE Archmage does it. I guess it comes down to if you think the scenario in which you need to counter a spell with a creature tutor and no flash enabler (I think you have three?), no counters in the bin, and plus tutor mana open will happen more often than holding Snake and wishing you weren't. It may end up that access to Snake is important in your meta, but I have found in my time playing EDH that he has been more of a detriment than a help to me.

I think your deck is a really cool idea, so it should be fun to watch it grow. Keep us updated on that list, and hopefully you'll get a chance to see how it runs soon!

Ok I will look over my options and see if Tolaria West is worth it. I will reiterate though that I have used it in the past and I was not super happy with it. Same reason I am not using Dizzy Spell (which arguably has better targets at the cost of being less useful on its own).

Good call on the Winter Orb rules. Didn't realize that (kinda returning to magic after a bit of a hiatus). As for Opposition defensively, that is a very good point. That being said, it can be used as an incredibly political card so long as I don't look threatening, which is somewhat my goal using utility critters and all.

Whilst initially reworking my Mimeoplasm deck, I drafted a few reanimator lists, an exercise that led me to the conclusion that I hate fatties and that I really wanted to play true control (a thing which reanimator cannot do as it needs to move as fast as possible). Additionally, I don't like traditional Mimeoplasm reanimator lists because I hate having so many necessary cards for it to function (you need a discard/enabler, a fatty, and recursion to get 1 thing into play), and the loss of Sylvan Primordial was huge.

My original list (which was closer to a combo/control Damia list) included Palinchron. It is really powerful and honestly I wouldn't need to change anything except that I got really sick of getting flak for comboing out. Thus, I tried to avoid any infinites in this list.

Ok, good call on Mystic Snake. I think I will put him on the chopping block.

For the record, I made the following change: Brainstorm--->Sylvan Library
Reason: Brainstorm is great, but it is a little lackluster when I have no fetches. Sylvan Library is just a super solid draw engine, that still functions well with fetches. Now I just need to find some life gain to counter the life loss...

A few updates:
Leyline of Anticipation--->Braids, Cabal Minion: as discussed above, Leyline is kinda meh, and though I don't want to get too staxxy, Braids goes quite well with the resource denial/Bloodghst+Reassembling Skeleton. Plus, I can very easily avoid symmetry via bouncing her before my turn.

Voidmage Husher--->Kokusho, the Evening Star: I am not a huge fan of this change but only because I didn't really want to play Kokopuffs. However, I really wanted a means of lifegain because I have a few ways of hurting myself (and honestly I think I will have a hard time getting to late game without bleeding a fair amount), and I wanted another win condition that wasn't reliant on Muse/Prophet. With Koko, I can perform a slow kill with Volrath's Stronghold/Phyrexian Tower.

Mystic Snake--->Cryptic Command: I didn't like losing a counterspell, and Command let's me get a mini lock via bouncing Eternal Witness with it.

So I am still in the process of acquiring the cards (very nearly done) however, I have a couple of thoughts on slots:

I am not really digging Meekstone. Yes it is effective but it doesn't really take care of anything-creatures have to have already attacked for it to be useful. Additionally, it does hurt me if I don't have my untappers. I still want something controlly, but something that is more of a deterrent than just annoying. I was thinking of either Constant Mists or Spike Weaver (though any other suggestions would be welcome). I would appreciate some feedback on this.

Also, how good is Havengul Lich? I have never played with him/seen him played so I don't know how good of a choice he is especially as I just remembered that Oona, Queen of the Fae is a card. Should I swap the Lich for Oona or is the Lich worthwhile?

Thanks!

Alex? Maybe check the mimeo thread in my sig. It contains a list I enjoyed a while back that ran lots of evasive dudes that draw cards, sword triggers and stuff...

Hey Rob long time no see! I am gonna try returning to RCG sometime maybe in a week or two (I want to make sure that I at least have the major parts of the deck-still missing Prophet). As far as your decklist, it looks cool but it is the exact opposite of what I am going for. Reanimator decks are very aggro oriented as their main goal is to reanimate a fattie as early as possible. I, on the other hand, am trying to play for the long game: control is more my calling. Additionally, the loss of Sylvan Primordial really hurt the effectiveness of BUG reanimator (you need to update your list by the way).

More on topic though, what were your thoughts on Havengul Lich? I am leaning more towards playing with Oona because she both mills and creates chump blockers, but I have simply never played with Lich so he might be awesome and I would never know.

Again too, thoughts on control replacements for Meekstone? My current ideas were Constant Mists and Spike Weaver, but I guess it could be anything so long as it is a deterrent against attacks.

The deck I was referring to is listed as a previous version an is hidden by a spoiler. I will post it here when I get home with some comments

First, I'll try to answer some of your questions:
Havengul Lich seems decent if you want to recycle cheap value cards (Gilded Drake for example). I never drew it and thought WOAH I'm glad I have this instead of Geth, Lord of the Vault. Also, The Mimeoplasm does what you want without taking a space in the 99, and often at the same CMC.

I tend to like the Lorwyn/Shadowmoor filter lands if my mana base is heavily skewed towards one color. If it's mostly U and I don't want to run a ton of ramp then I'll play the appropriate U/B, U/W, U/G or U/R lands. If the mana base is more balanced, I'll run the ones from M12/13 and Innistraad block. I've seen them referred to as Check lands since they check for control of a basic land type.

I like Constant Mists if the deck generates lots of card advantage and Spike Weaver or Spore Frog, depending on how often you tap out and how much white you play against (Swords to Plowshares, etc.).

In considering the disruption options you listed, I think you might want to look at Magus of the Abyss, Stasis, and Smokestack. Also, I like Tangle Wire in the early game but it may not pull it's weight in your deck. Lastly, if you run Magus and Braids, I'd consider Geth, Lord of the Vault over Consecrated Sphinx. Sphinx, copied by an opponent or Briberied, loses you the game some of the time. Geth has excellent synergy with your attrition and multiple untap strategies.

Second, here's the deck I meant to direct you too. I'll edit with some suggested updates.

I want to mention that the meta at RCG is shifting. Expect fast aggro decks, resource denial and lockdown strategies. I find tucking generals a lot more important than in the past (Maelstrom Wanderer, Derevi, Empyrial Tactician, Prossh, Skyraider of Kher). I'd run some answers to Deadeye Navigator. Expect to see a lot more blue magic. Combo is also more prevalent, IMO.

Thanks for the reply Rob. Here are my thoughts:

Considering the amount of recursion I already run, my guess is that oona will be a better control option. Thanks!

I have all three filters and check lands in the manabase so I got the whole thing covered.

Tangle Wire is a fantastic idea!!! Sadly stasis doesn't combo with muse and prophet.

While really cool your decklist is pretty different from what I am trying to do.

How combo is rcg getting? Cause I am specifically changing my original mimeoplasm deck to cater to the whiners who wouldn't let me play combo to begin with. Are we talking turn 5 win combos, late game combo finishes or just synergy?

Thanks!

Nobody complains if I play a moderately original late game combo or seem to have to work for it. Simply tooth and nailing for Kiki-Jiki/Pestermites or Palinchron/Deadeye Navigator still gets a "cool story bro" response.

Also, Oona tends to underwhelm me as a win-con but more power to ya. I'd rather see something that mills to their yard. I see more 2 and 3 color decks as well, so you may not hit the permanent you want all that often.

Some ideas:

• Trading Post
  
• Dimir House Guard
  
• Sword of Feast and Famine
  
• Liliana of the Veil
  

I'm underwhelmed by:

• Crucible of Worlds
  
• Baleful Stryx
  
• Notion Thief

Quote from robtheman

I want to mention that the meta at RCG is shifting. Expect fast aggro decks, resource denial and lockdown strategies.

Sounds like my kind of meta!

Does the "resource denial" include mass land destruction?

Quote from robtheman

I'm underwhelmed by:

• Crucible of Worlds
  
• Baleful Stryx
  
• Notion Thief

Why?

Good point. Resource denial usually means Winter Orb, Stasis, Static Orb, Tangle Wire, etc. as opposed to straight up Armageddon - at least lately.

I suppose if one strategy is to lock down resources then Strip Mine and Wasteland the rest of their resources then this seems good. But if it's just for value? Run something else.

Quote from 4Lark

Quote from robtheman

I'm underwhelmed by:[cards]
Crucible of Worlds

Why?

Quote from robtheman

I suppose if one strategy is to lock down resources then Strip Mine and Wasteland the rest of their resources then this seems good. But if it's just for value? Run something else.

You mean, "run something else" besides Crucible of Worlds in a deck with nine fetchlands, Strip Mine, Wasteland, Windfall, and Braids, Cabal Minion?

Like what?

I am not going to fix my lands after the fifth or sixth turn. I am not going to beat my opponent with strip mine in this deck. Why am I using a card slot to one for one someone else's lands every turn? This is the problem with crucible. It just greases the engine and let's you poke at peoples mana. Blowing up someone's gaea's cradle is super. Blowing their mountain two turns later is not worth the land drop in a deck that wants to win with oona or geth activations. If I thought that folks would be targeting my spell lands then I would run crucible in this list.