This is my new mono-black deck. Very few combos, heavy focus on bleeding a lot of value out of every card. My playgroup is allowing me to play Kokusho because we all agree it doesn't belong on the ban list whatsoever. I want to keep it competitive, but I don't want it to turn into a combo or prison deck since that's every other deck I play.
I have absolutely zero desire to discuss the merits of Kokusho being on the banlist or otherwise. Please keep discussion pertinent to the deck list itself. I will be playing Kokusho regardless of what random people on the internet say about it being banned.
This is my new mono-black deck. Very few combos, heavy focus on bleeding a lot of value out of every card. My playgroup is allowing me to play Kokusho because we all agree it doesn't belong on the ban list whatsoever. I want to keep it competitive, but I don't want it to turn into a combo or prison deck since that's every other deck I play.
I have absolutely zero desire to discuss the merits of Kokusho being on the banlist or otherwise. Please keep discussion pertinent to the deck list itself. I will be playing Kokusho regardless of what random people on the internet say about it being banned.
Are you deliberately choosing not to go full combo? (a fine choice, really, just asking)
Edit:
Here's some suggestions.
Phyrexian Altar, this altar is great due to being able to make black mana. Combine it with.. Strands of Night for instance, and you got a sweet loop going on to kill the board easily.
There's also Phyrexian Reclamation, which, while slower, can really abuse your general.
Yes, I am choosing to not go full combo. Every deck I build is a prison and/or combo deck (see signature). I think those are the most competitive choices for a mono Black deck, but I want a change of pace (thus the lack of [Competitive] tag).
I definitely feel like I should include a couple more reanimation/regrowth effects. It was originally a Geth list, then Erebos, so it's not completely tuned for Kokusho yet. That's the main part for which I'd like suggestions.
EDIT: I was originally playing Phyrexian Reclamation. Cut it in favor of Oversold Cemetery. I'd like to play both. Strands of Night is really cool, but it necessitates the addition of Crucible of Worlds. Phyrexian Altar isn't that great in this deck beyond being a sac-outlet because the deck has no trouble generating a ton of colored mana. In this case, I feel the deck is better off with quantity over quality.
Yes, I am choosing to not go full combo. Every deck I build is a prison and/or combo deck (see signature). I think those are the most competitive choices for a mono Black deck, but I want a change of pace (thus the lack of [Competitive] tag).
Understandable, for some reason my decks eventually get more and more competitive the longer they live though. If you want to keep your choice and reasoning intact, be careful of tuning it. Kokusho is easily to get out of hand
I definitely feel like I should include a couple more reanimation/regrowth effects. It was originally a Geth list, then Erebos, so it's not completely tuned for Kokusho yet. That's the main part for which I'd like suggestions.
Yeah, I editted a couple of suggestions in my previous post.
While your group is allowing you to play Koko-Puffs as your general, the deck could be better with Chainer, Dementia Master as your general. A straight swap looks plausible, actually.
Kokusho is banned as a general incase you didnt know.
Serious suggestion time. How do you feel about Liliana of the Dark Realms? Pretty good in my experience. People usually leave her alone because its "just searching a swamp." The -is removal and ult wins games.
Dude if your playgroup is going to allow it's use... go full kokopuffs combo. Otherwise you might as well play something else. Your in a gold mine panning for copper with this deck.
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**** this site. I'd delete this account but that doesn't seem to be an option. The mods here are ******* useless ********s who ban people for simple ass normal words. **** them and **** this site.
I'm not interested in playing Kokusho because it's Kokusho. I had this deck and I just happen to like Kokusho in front of it. This deck is built with the express goal of not comboing off every game. It has a strong focus on ETB triggers and recursive engines. Kokusho seems like a great fit. Chainer is also a great (better) choice, but I'm sticking with the dragon for now.
Lili of the Dark Realms is acceptable in this deck, but I'm not sure what comes out for her. She doesn't seem much better than anything I could cut nor the potential inclusions I could have.
All these well meaning posters just trying to help you figure out koko is banned and you still can't understand you cant use him.
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The XHD I played a bit ago looks reaallllyyyyy similar to your build. My list is in my sig, but you seem to have all the essential cards for value based mbc. I changed the way I play mbc a little since then and think a 'pox mentatlity' is better then a 'big mana mentality' when approaching the deck.
One thing I think could help you out though is falling back on one of blacks old strengths: discard. You are better equipped to fight handless then opponents by a fair margin. Symetrical discard effects can tear opponents apart. Even more so if you increase your density of yard hate (card like withered wretch and leyline of the void. Ill-gotten gains is just crazy with the latter as well).
Other understated all stars are Night's Whisper and Sign in Blood. It is hard to explain how amazing these cards are... but I would try Night's whisper as my #1 recomandation to add to the deck. Read the bones fits in the same vein now. Necromancy is probably your best reanimate. And I echo the poster who said Phyrexian Alter, it is an insanely good sac outlet. MBC gets hurt from not having enough ways to deal with artifacts and enchantments, Karn Liberated and/or All is dust to supliment o-stone could come in quite handy.
Last, (personally) I would not even consider caged sun for mbc anymore. It's ramp in the 6 mana slot, its hard to recur, and while sometimes it wins games, its more likely to get you time walked when you drop it, and have it disenchanted right away. If you want the effect, I would recommend back up land recursion for coffers or Nirkana revenent who is easier to recur and does other things too (but imo just cut it, or at least keep an eye on it.. now that I am thinking about it - keep an eye on anything hard to cast, like the myojin, and exsanguinate. A lot of mbc builds drop exsangiunate because it sits in your hand and does nothing while blood artist and recursion spam are busy winning you the game).
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I believe a more stax-y list is a better overall strategy, but I'm aiming to make this deck different from my others. One-shot draw effects are not worthwhile in a MBC EDH. There are a million repeatable draw effects that are all recurrable. Tiny sorceries are not in this deck's best interest.
I disagree that Necromancy is my best reanimate spell. Definitely the best one after the ones I'm already playing. Leyline should be included, but needs a cut. Karn was in the original list, but got cut for Sorin. I still don't think I need yet another Altar. If I need another one it's obviously Phyrexian. Sometimes a deck like this generates a million mana, a means of winning the game in that scenario is necessary. That's just proper deck-building. Blood Artist doesn't do anything when you have 2 or 3 Cabal Coffers and a Deserted Temple.
I believe a more stax-y list is a better overall strategy, but I'm aiming to make this deck different from my others. One-shot draw effects are not worthwhile in a MBC EDH. There are a million repeatable draw effects that are all recurrable. Tiny sorceries are not in this deck's best interest.
I disagree that Necromancy is my best reanimate spell. Definitely the best one after the ones I'm already playing. Leyline should be included, but needs a cut. Karn was in the original list, but got cut for Sorin. I still don't think I need yet another Altar. If I need another one it's obviously Phyrexian. Sometimes a deck like this generates a million mana, a means of winning the game in that scenario is necessary. That's just proper deck-building. Blood Artist doesn't do anything when you have 2 or 3 Cabal Coffers and a Deserted Temple.
I agree with you about Myojin and Exsanguinate being choice, while Blood Artist does a lot of nothing, but as a fairly seasoned MBC player, I strongly recommend you reconsider on the Night's Whisper effects. They are incredibly strong in that they help with MBC's awkward openings, are early-game all-stars, and scale well since they are cheap (late game turn one card into two cards? Ok!). Additionally, the slightly more expensive cousins, Ambition's Cost and Ancient Craving are likewise very, very good.
So, here are some (a lot) of additional thoughts on your list:
You are running a few stax/pseudo stax elements, but not a lot. In my experience playing MBC, this is a mistake. You either dedicate to it (and simply lose if your group plays :symu::symg:/:xmana:), or your few pieces sit around and do far too much nothing. Also, if going the stax route, unless you forgo it for purposes of having a soul, might as well run Contamination, which is just the illest with the stax enablers. But outside of some pretty dedicate stax, cards like Bitterblossom, Ophiomancer, and sadly the duo of Reassembling Skeleton and Bloodghast are only good with Skullclamp or if you manage to stick a proactive sac outlet and untap with it. The sac outlet plan is cool if your meta is on the slow side, but if people are doing strong, proactive plays themselves, you fall hopelessly behind the decks that ramp, and our engines are outclassed by their power. Again, this is meta reliant, so if your group chills on the throttle enough to allow these shenanigans, the engine-based deck is very powerful. But we don't play catch up well by durdling with mana-intensive, underpowered, multi-card engines.
As such, I really fell in love with some of the more powerful spells that we have to offer like All is Dust, Karn Liberated, Mind Twist, Mind Shatter, and Mind Sludge. Those guys have really good synergy with our stone-based ramp game, and apply a strong kick in the nads to whoever needs it.
In order to keep up with the faster decks, the superficially underwhelming rocks like Everflowing Chalice, Charcoal Diamond, Coldsteel Heart, Fellwar Stone, and Mind Stone end up being really good. Plus they allow for early All is Dust, which is just nasty, and swings the game heavily in our favor. While I think stone-based ramping is very effective in a vacuum, I understand a lot of players don't favor it because they take up slots that could be used for cards that are simply more fun, and their metas don't require their decks to be quite as speedy to compete.
As such, at least in my meta, I found cards like Buried Ruin (underwhelming), High Market (disappointingly underwhelming), Thawing Glaciers (sloooooooooow), and Petrified Field (we have recursion, no need to dedicate a land slot, although I find this to be the strongest of this bunch) to be better off as swamps. I also tested and rejected guys like Winding Canyon, Terrain Generator, and Miren, the Moaning Well on the same principle. All about that swamp count!
I never tested Lake of the Dead, as I didn't know of its existence, but it is not my style to hurt my swamp count for a one-turn burst of explosiveness. Still, very intriguing card, let me know how it tests for you.
Oh, and Nykthos, Shrine to Nix I really don't like. It only does good stuff if we are already in a good position, it hurts Coffers, and is very asynergistic with our board wipes, which are one of our strong suits. If it has been working for you, don't take it out, results are what really matter, but this is a card that could never work for me.
I'm not sure what Bottomless Pit is doing for you. I don't see a lot of synergy or power from it. Obviously I could very easily be wrong, as with any of my opinions. I don't mean to espouse my opinions as gospel, I only mean to add to the conversation.
I never found Blood Artist to be worth a card slot. One measly life?? From one measly player? And you have to devote an entire card to it. And it has to survive to get any value over time. And as such, Falkenrath Noble does the same thing for twice the mana. I used these guys in my early builds and they got the axe really quickly. My opponents tended to just, you know, play good spells and not care about my pittance of life gained and pinged with my stupid dorks. Their cards did stuff and mine didn't.
Staff of Domination in my mind is a pointless mana sink. It's good with infinite mana. But in that scenario, your commander plus any means of killing it is, too. Or Exsanguinate. Or Chainer, Geth, Yawg Will, or a Tutor. Otherwise it's to draw a card. Or a Icy Manipulator effect. Yuck.
Along the same lines, I don't think Oversold Cemetary is a powerful enough effect to warrant a card slot. We have a lot of powerful spells we can play, and a dude back to the hand once per turn is not that hot. Especially when it is conditional.
Some cards have effects I like, but I don't think warrant the mana cost. Guys like Black Market, Harvester of Souls, Sadistic Hypnotist, and Fell Shepherd fall in that category in my eyes. I just think there are much better uses for our mana at those slots! Instead of Harvester, we can simply play a draw spell. Then we don't have to worry about making things die, and how many cards we'll get, and surviving for an untap with him. That dude wears a target. Black Market... a ramp spell at 5 that we have to devote another full turn to before it starts ramping? If you just play Gauntlet of Power when you untap you probably win the game instead of starting to set up a conditional ramp. Hypnotist will probably serve you better than he served me, you probably need sac outlets more than I do with my Chainer deck. On that topic, have you considered Helm of Possession? Not repeatable, but imo the best sac outlet (effect-wise) MBC has to offer by a ton. Probably Attrition in second in my mind with the altars following after that (the altars are good for infinite combos, I didn't go that route, but people who espouse the virtues of the altars over my choices have a valid point as well).
I find Liliana of the Veil to be insane in duels, but very underwhelming in multiplayer. I highly recommend trying out Liliana Vess for some repeatable Vamp Tutor action.
I really thought Mind Slash would be awesome, but I ended up facing too many opponents doing powerful stuff to where it wasn't able to earn its keep. Definitely a meta call, because at just per activation, if there is only one guy who needs a good targeting, that is pure business. But I would recommend the suite of Mind Twist, Mind Shatter, and (if you up the swamp count) Mind Sludge first, as you only have to dedicate one card to make those game-breaking. I found that in MBC power beats synergy, unless the synergistic cards are independently powerful.
Gray Merchant of Asphodel is almost purely a lifegain spell. It can occasionally take a little life off of people, but typically is just a way to get your permanents targeted for removal with him or his ability on the stack. At least in my meta, I find that between all of the players, someone will typically come up with a sweeper if the board is getting developed enough for him to really have an impact. But again, my meta does not mean yours, so test away. Hopefully he works out.
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief I think has a nice effect, but comes at too high of a cost. It is rare to be able to play and use her on the same turn, and if you can, I always wonder why I am dedicating that kind of mana to remove on creature. Definite upside, kills indestructibles, gets big, but is awfully slow and fragile for a creature removal engine, and I feel like I would prefer an ETB effect like Bone Shredder or Shriekmaw to do the dirty work, especially with recursion.
Grave Titan played his way out of my build once the stax elements played their way out. Without benefiting a stax strategy, he was just an evasionless dumb beater that never connected. Deathtouch on a 6/6? Why??
Erratic Portal seems fun with Fleshbag Marauder, but I don't see a ton of ETB to abuse that guy with. How is it working for you so far?
I have had the exact opposite view of Bitterblossom and friends. With the sheer value provided from proactive sac outlets such as Altars and Clamp they get nutty.
Blood Artist has also been great tech; functioning as a psuedo-Angel of Jubilation. In addition, there are several decks in my meta that rely on swarming the board (Edric, Kraj, Prossh). If I increase the quantity of my sweepers BA just gets better.
As I said, this is a value-based deck with a focus on synergy and recursive engines. I have several other brutally competitive decks (my Shattergang list in my sig being my present go-to). This is meant to be a change of pace from my prison/combo decks.
I'm concerned about upping my curve too much. I had most of the 7 mana spells you mention originally, but a curve that high leaves me dead to anything playing Strip Mine and Null Rod.
The altars function as ramp as much as sac outlets when combined with Bitterblossom and self-recurring dudes. Mind Slash also increases in power with these cards.
Gray Merchant is Kokusho #2. It's not always as good, but it's frequently better. This deck has a strong focus on ETB effects and permanent-based engines. Along with the recursion package of Oversold Cemetery, Reanimate, and friends this deck is primed to take advantage of these abilities.
I agree that some of the lands are subpar, but Nykthos and High Market have been great. I don't build a deck without High Market. The ability to always have a free sac outlet is vital to any graveyard driven deck. Lake of the Dead has been good so far, but I really miss Life From the Loam.
The discard effects are to help this slow deck continuously apply pressure.
I'll be making some changes this weekend with these comments in mind.
Slightly updated list. I have a few more cards I'd like to add, but need cuts. Falkenrath Noble and the discard suite are on the chopping block, but I want to test them a little more first. Gonna try to get some serious testing in this week.
Could we be adults? My group has made a house rule, that sort of thing is supposed to be engouraged. Do we really have nothing better to do than judge people for trying something different?
Could we be adults? My group has made a house rule, that sort of thing is supposed to be engouraged. Do we really have nothing better to do than judge people for trying something different?
I'm afraid this will only fuel the trolls, but I fully agree. The beauty of EDH is that Wizards doesn't get to stick their grimy paws all over our wonderful format. Some cards should be banned, without a doubt. But not only is it ok, and in some ways noble to use EDH house rules, but if you really think Kokusho should be banned as a general, you've probably never faced upper-echelon decks before...
Keep us in the loop on how your testing is going, with the lack of activity on the Chainer thread, it's nice to have an MBC thread to work on.
Could we be adults? My group has made a house rule, that sort of thing is supposed to be engouraged. Do we really have nothing better to do than judge people for trying something different?
I expected some trolls to pass by this thread but re-reading it it's getting really old. Oh well atleast you got an A-class post from MrCoupon.
I have absolutely zero desire to discuss the merits of Kokusho being on the banlist or otherwise. Please keep discussion pertinent to the deck list itself. I will be playing Kokusho regardless of what random people on the internet say about it being banned.
Anyways, here's the list:
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star
1x Blood Artist
1x Bloodghast
1x Chainer, Dementia Master
1x Crypt Ghast
1x Disciple of Bolas
1x Duplicant
1x Fleshbag Marauder
1x Geth, Lord of the Vault
1x Grave Titan
1x Graveborn Muse
1x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1x Massacre Wurm
1x Myojin of Night's Reach
1x Ophiomancer
1x Reassembling Skeleton
1x Rune-Scarred Demon
1x Sadistic Hypnotist
1x Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Cabal Coffers
1x Deserted Temple
1x High Market
1x Lake of the Dead
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Petrified Field
1x Phyrexian Tower
23x Snow-Covered Swamp
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Vesuva
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Entomb
1x Vampiric Tutor
Planeswalker (2)
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Sorin Markov
Artifact (15)
1x Ashnod's Altar
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Doubling Cube
1x Erratic Portal
1x Expedition Map
1x Extraplanar Lens
1x Gauntlet of Power
1x Gilded Lotus
1x Grim Monolith
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Nim Deathmantle
1x Oblivion Stone
1x Phyrexian Altar
1x Skullclamp
1x Sol Ring
1x Animate Dead
1x Attrition
1x Bitterblossom
1x Black Market
1x Grave Pact
1x Leyline of the Void
1x Mind Slash
1x Necromancy
1x Necropotence
1x Oversold Cemetery
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Phyrexian Reclamation
1x Strands of Night
1x Whip of Erebos
1x Damnation
1x Decree of Pain
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Diabolic Intent
1x Exsanguinate
1x Living Death
1x Mutilate
1x Reanimate
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Victimize
1x Yawgmoth's Will
Maybeboard (2)
1x Liliana of the Dark Realms
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/kokusho-the-value-star/
Any criticism or thoughts (on the decklist) are appreciated.
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My playgroup is allowing me to play Kokusho
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Are you deliberately choosing not to go full combo? (a fine choice, really, just asking)
Edit:
Here's some suggestions.
Phyrexian Altar, this altar is great due to being able to make black mana. Combine it with..
Strands of Night for instance, and you got a sweet loop going on to kill the board easily.
There's also Phyrexian Reclamation, which, while slower, can really abuse your general.
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
I definitely feel like I should include a couple more reanimation/regrowth effects. It was originally a Geth list, then Erebos, so it's not completely tuned for Kokusho yet. That's the main part for which I'd like suggestions.
EDIT: I was originally playing Phyrexian Reclamation. Cut it in favor of Oversold Cemetery. I'd like to play both. Strands of Night is really cool, but it necessitates the addition of Crucible of Worlds. Phyrexian Altar isn't that great in this deck beyond being a sac-outlet because the deck has no trouble generating a ton of colored mana. In this case, I feel the deck is better off with quantity over quality.
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Understandable, for some reason my decks eventually get more and more competitive the longer they live though. If you want to keep your choice and reasoning intact, be careful of tuning it. Kokusho is easily to get out of hand
Yeah, I editted a couple of suggestions in my previous post.
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
Serious suggestion time. How do you feel about Liliana of the Dark Realms? Pretty good in my experience. People usually leave her alone because its "just searching a swamp." The -is removal and ult wins games.
Lili of the Dark Realms is acceptable in this deck, but I'm not sure what comes out for her. She doesn't seem much better than anything I could cut nor the potential inclusions I could have.
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The XHD I played a bit ago looks reaallllyyyyy similar to your build. My list is in my sig, but you seem to have all the essential cards for value based mbc. I changed the way I play mbc a little since then and think a 'pox mentatlity' is better then a 'big mana mentality' when approaching the deck.
One thing I think could help you out though is falling back on one of blacks old strengths: discard. You are better equipped to fight handless then opponents by a fair margin. Symetrical discard effects can tear opponents apart. Even more so if you increase your density of yard hate (card like withered wretch and leyline of the void. Ill-gotten gains is just crazy with the latter as well).
Other understated all stars are Night's Whisper and Sign in Blood. It is hard to explain how amazing these cards are... but I would try Night's whisper as my #1 recomandation to add to the deck. Read the bones fits in the same vein now. Necromancy is probably your best reanimate. And I echo the poster who said Phyrexian Alter, it is an insanely good sac outlet. MBC gets hurt from not having enough ways to deal with artifacts and enchantments, Karn Liberated and/or All is dust to supliment o-stone could come in quite handy.
Last, (personally) I would not even consider caged sun for mbc anymore. It's ramp in the 6 mana slot, its hard to recur, and while sometimes it wins games, its more likely to get you time walked when you drop it, and have it disenchanted right away. If you want the effect, I would recommend back up land recursion for coffers or Nirkana revenent who is easier to recur and does other things too (but imo just cut it, or at least keep an eye on it.. now that I am thinking about it - keep an eye on anything hard to cast, like the myojin, and exsanguinate. A lot of mbc builds drop exsangiunate because it sits in your hand and does nothing while blood artist and recursion spam are busy winning you the game).
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I disagree that Necromancy is my best reanimate spell. Definitely the best one after the ones I'm already playing. Leyline should be included, but needs a cut. Karn was in the original list, but got cut for Sorin. I still don't think I need yet another Altar. If I need another one it's obviously Phyrexian. Sometimes a deck like this generates a million mana, a means of winning the game in that scenario is necessary. That's just proper deck-building. Blood Artist doesn't do anything when you have 2 or 3 Cabal Coffers and a Deserted Temple.
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I agree with you about Myojin and Exsanguinate being choice, while Blood Artist does a lot of nothing, but as a fairly seasoned MBC player, I strongly recommend you reconsider on the Night's Whisper effects. They are incredibly strong in that they help with MBC's awkward openings, are early-game all-stars, and scale well since they are cheap (late game turn one card into two cards? Ok!). Additionally, the slightly more expensive cousins, Ambition's Cost and Ancient Craving are likewise very, very good.
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You are running a few stax/pseudo stax elements, but not a lot. In my experience playing MBC, this is a mistake. You either dedicate to it (and simply lose if your group plays :symu::symg:/:xmana:), or your few pieces sit around and do far too much nothing. Also, if going the stax route, unless you forgo it for purposes of having a soul, might as well run Contamination, which is just the illest with the stax enablers. But outside of some pretty dedicate stax, cards like Bitterblossom, Ophiomancer, and sadly the duo of Reassembling Skeleton and Bloodghast are only good with Skullclamp or if you manage to stick a proactive sac outlet and untap with it. The sac outlet plan is cool if your meta is on the slow side, but if people are doing strong, proactive plays themselves, you fall hopelessly behind the decks that ramp, and our engines are outclassed by their power. Again, this is meta reliant, so if your group chills on the throttle enough to allow these shenanigans, the engine-based deck is very powerful. But we don't play catch up well by durdling with mana-intensive, underpowered, multi-card engines.
As such, I really fell in love with some of the more powerful spells that we have to offer like All is Dust, Karn Liberated, Mind Twist, Mind Shatter, and Mind Sludge. Those guys have really good synergy with our stone-based ramp game, and apply a strong kick in the nads to whoever needs it.
In order to keep up with the faster decks, the superficially underwhelming rocks like Everflowing Chalice, Charcoal Diamond, Coldsteel Heart, Fellwar Stone, and Mind Stone end up being really good. Plus they allow for early All is Dust, which is just nasty, and swings the game heavily in our favor. While I think stone-based ramping is very effective in a vacuum, I understand a lot of players don't favor it because they take up slots that could be used for cards that are simply more fun, and their metas don't require their decks to be quite as speedy to compete.
Those guys enable us to use the better rocks like the mana doublers, Thran Dynamo, Doubling Cube <--so good with Coffers, Worn Powerstone, and in turn Sculpting Steel.
While on the mana subject, I feel that in a Cabal Coffers deck, any land that doesn't absolutely shine its ass off absolutely should be a swamp. This also makes all of our swamp-based cards (i.e. Extraplanar Lens, Gauntlet of Power, Mind Sludge, Mutilate, Crypt Ghast, Nirkana Revenant) much more consistently strong.
As such, at least in my meta, I found cards like Buried Ruin (underwhelming), High Market (disappointingly underwhelming), Thawing Glaciers (sloooooooooow), and Petrified Field (we have recursion, no need to dedicate a land slot, although I find this to be the strongest of this bunch) to be better off as swamps. I also tested and rejected guys like Winding Canyon, Terrain Generator, and Miren, the Moaning Well on the same principle. All about that swamp count!
I never tested Lake of the Dead, as I didn't know of its existence, but it is not my style to hurt my swamp count for a one-turn burst of explosiveness. Still, very intriguing card, let me know how it tests for you.
Oh, and Nykthos, Shrine to Nix I really don't like. It only does good stuff if we are already in a good position, it hurts Coffers, and is very asynergistic with our board wipes, which are one of our strong suits. If it has been working for you, don't take it out, results are what really matter, but this is a card that could never work for me.
I'm not sure what Bottomless Pit is doing for you. I don't see a lot of synergy or power from it. Obviously I could very easily be wrong, as with any of my opinions. I don't mean to espouse my opinions as gospel, I only mean to add to the conversation.
I never found Blood Artist to be worth a card slot. One measly life?? From one measly player? And you have to devote an entire card to it. And it has to survive to get any value over time. And as such, Falkenrath Noble does the same thing for twice the mana. I used these guys in my early builds and they got the axe really quickly. My opponents tended to just, you know, play good spells and not care about my pittance of life gained and pinged with my stupid dorks. Their cards did stuff and mine didn't.
Staff of Domination in my mind is a pointless mana sink. It's good with infinite mana. But in that scenario, your commander plus any means of killing it is, too. Or Exsanguinate. Or Chainer, Geth, Yawg Will, or a Tutor. Otherwise it's to draw a card. Or a Icy Manipulator effect. Yuck.
Along the same lines, I don't think Oversold Cemetary is a powerful enough effect to warrant a card slot. We have a lot of powerful spells we can play, and a dude back to the hand once per turn is not that hot. Especially when it is conditional.
Some cards have effects I like, but I don't think warrant the mana cost. Guys like Black Market, Harvester of Souls, Sadistic Hypnotist, and Fell Shepherd fall in that category in my eyes. I just think there are much better uses for our mana at those slots! Instead of Harvester, we can simply play a draw spell. Then we don't have to worry about making things die, and how many cards we'll get, and surviving for an untap with him. That dude wears a target. Black Market... a ramp spell at 5 that we have to devote another full turn to before it starts ramping? If you just play Gauntlet of Power when you untap you probably win the game instead of starting to set up a conditional ramp. Hypnotist will probably serve you better than he served me, you probably need sac outlets more than I do with my Chainer deck. On that topic, have you considered Helm of Possession? Not repeatable, but imo the best sac outlet (effect-wise) MBC has to offer by a ton. Probably Attrition in second in my mind with the altars following after that (the altars are good for infinite combos, I didn't go that route, but people who espouse the virtues of the altars over my choices have a valid point as well).
I find Liliana of the Veil to be insane in duels, but very underwhelming in multiplayer. I highly recommend trying out Liliana Vess for some repeatable Vamp Tutor action.
I really thought Mind Slash would be awesome, but I ended up facing too many opponents doing powerful stuff to where it wasn't able to earn its keep. Definitely a meta call, because at just per activation, if there is only one guy who needs a good targeting, that is pure business. But I would recommend the suite of Mind Twist, Mind Shatter, and (if you up the swamp count) Mind Sludge first, as you only have to dedicate one card to make those game-breaking. I found that in MBC power beats synergy, unless the synergistic cards are independently powerful.
Gray Merchant of Asphodel is almost purely a lifegain spell. It can occasionally take a little life off of people, but typically is just a way to get your permanents targeted for removal with him or his ability on the stack. At least in my meta, I find that between all of the players, someone will typically come up with a sweeper if the board is getting developed enough for him to really have an impact. But again, my meta does not mean yours, so test away. Hopefully he works out.
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief I think has a nice effect, but comes at too high of a cost. It is rare to be able to play and use her on the same turn, and if you can, I always wonder why I am dedicating that kind of mana to remove on creature. Definite upside, kills indestructibles, gets big, but is awfully slow and fragile for a creature removal engine, and I feel like I would prefer an ETB effect like Bone Shredder or Shriekmaw to do the dirty work, especially with recursion.
Grave Titan played his way out of my build once the stax elements played their way out. Without benefiting a stax strategy, he was just an evasionless dumb beater that never connected. Deathtouch on a 6/6? Why??
Erratic Portal seems fun with Fleshbag Marauder, but I don't see a ton of ETB to abuse that guy with. How is it working for you so far?
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
Blood Artist has also been great tech; functioning as a psuedo-Angel of Jubilation. In addition, there are several decks in my meta that rely on swarming the board (Edric, Kraj, Prossh). If I increase the quantity of my sweepers BA just gets better.
As I said, this is a value-based deck with a focus on synergy and recursive engines. I have several other brutally competitive decks (my Shattergang list in my sig being my present go-to). This is meant to be a change of pace from my prison/combo decks.
I'm concerned about upping my curve too much. I had most of the 7 mana spells you mention originally, but a curve that high leaves me dead to anything playing Strip Mine and Null Rod.
The altars function as ramp as much as sac outlets when combined with Bitterblossom and self-recurring dudes. Mind Slash also increases in power with these cards.
Gray Merchant is Kokusho #2. It's not always as good, but it's frequently better. This deck has a strong focus on ETB effects and permanent-based engines. Along with the recursion package of Oversold Cemetery, Reanimate, and friends this deck is primed to take advantage of these abilities.
I agree that some of the lands are subpar, but Nykthos and High Market have been great. I don't build a deck without High Market. The ability to always have a free sac outlet is vital to any graveyard driven deck. Lake of the Dead has been good so far, but I really miss Life From the Loam.
The discard effects are to help this slow deck continuously apply pressure.
I'll be making some changes this weekend with these comments in mind.
My Blog About It
My Blog About It
mox jet library of alexandria yawgmoths bargain black lotus and grislebrand or sundering titan
*b-dum tsh*
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
My Blog About It
play it!!!, throw in a Mox Jet and Black Lotus while you are at it, its not like your deck is street legal anyway.
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
My Blog About It
I'm afraid this will only fuel the trolls, but I fully agree. The beauty of EDH is that Wizards doesn't get to stick their grimy paws all over our wonderful format. Some cards should be banned, without a doubt. But not only is it ok, and in some ways noble to use EDH house rules, but if you really think Kokusho should be banned as a general, you've probably never faced upper-echelon decks before...
Keep us in the loop on how your testing is going, with the lack of activity on the Chainer thread, it's nice to have an MBC thread to work on.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
I expected some trolls to pass by this thread but re-reading it it's getting really old. Oh well atleast you got an A-class post from MrCoupon.
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.