MTG Salvation

Normally my playgroup uses a "Gentleman's List". We've decided to build decks using only the ban list and purposely make them degenerate (infinite combos, land destruction etc). I've settled on Prime Speaker Zegana. I've found a good list on the forums (sorry I forgot who posted originally!) but I need to add a few more combos I think. Here's the list so far.


Combos:
Deadeye Navigator+Sylvan Primordial or Woodfall Primus to blow up permanents.
Phantasmal Image+Palinchron for infinite mana (not sure what I would use the mana for?)
Any other combos that would fit nicely?

I suppose I could throw in Memnarch and steal everyone's permanents with the infinite mana.

Your main problem currently is not enough acceptation to support your curve. I would worry less about more combos and first fix your mana curve and look at your effect proportions and try to visualize how your going to work towards your combo. This will struggle in a degenerate meta your typical turn 1 will be land go and that's not very degenerate.

Quote from artaud

I can't see anything degenerate here, just few cards tossed together and many of them without reason. Kozilek - you have Zegana for draw. Shapesharer - do not work with ETB. Forgotten Ancient - what for? Ponder, Preordain - what are you digging for? Hermit Druid - is this a joke? You have 15 creatures and 5 spells with CMC 6 or greater - you will be sitting duck with such high curve card cost most of the time. Where is Tooth and Nail? Where is Prophet of Kruphix? Where are all other green creatures tutors? Finally - what's your game plan?

You are absolutely correct and make some valid points. I'll definitely make adjustments. The dig spells are probably near pointless. I have no clue how I missed Prophet. I guess the gameplan is to get large amounts of card advantage and play value creatures while countering what matters and eventually combo off?

Quote from artaud

I can't see anything degenerate here, just few cards tossed together and many of them without reason. Kozilek - you have Zegana for draw. Shapesharer - do not work with ETB. Forgotten Ancient - what for? Ponder, Preordain - what are you digging for? Hermit Druid - is this a joke? You have 15 creatures and 5 spells with CMC 6 or greater - you will be sitting duck with such high curve card cost most of the time. Where is Tooth and Nail? Where is Prophet of Kruphix? Where are all other green creatures tutors? Finally - what's your game plan?

Did you have any suggestions for some lower curve creatures I've missed?

He's right in general but dead wrong about ponder and preordain if your looking to combo in Simic don't cut them. I don't really like your plan it seems unfocused for a competitive deck. Cut the curve toppers for cheap ramp and the deck gets infinitely better do not cut your only one drops

Ok made a bunch of changes, I think the deck is starting to really take shape. Curious if I have too many counters now though. As always any input is appreciated!

Quote from moxnix

He's right in general but dead wrong about ponder and preordain if your looking to combo in Simic don't cut them.

We're talking 99-cards decks with singletons here and things like Ponder, Preordain or Brainstorm can dig only 2-3 cards deep, which won't help much in many cases. Unless I'm playing a deck that could utilize them beyond their normal capabilities (i.e. Talrand, Sky Summoner or Melek, Izzet Paragon), I wouldn't touch those cards - I'd rather prefer more tutors (i.e. Chord of Calling, Personal Tutor, Worldly Tutor or Fierce Empath).

They cost 1 mana.... If your playing control you still at least play brainstorm you get ancestral recall card quality off fetch lands .... If he is playing combo you also play ponder 100% and most likely preordain without them he's got like what 3-4 1 drops that's horrible and slow you play GSZ and those cards not running brainstorm is just wrong. If he open hand them his turn 1 land go becomes turn 1 hand craft. Later it's a single mana for superior card quality and unless it stops him from curving out which is an optimal situation anyway it cost virtually nothing. You also thin out your worst cards he could also run more tutors I agree but telling him not to run ponder it brainstorm when he's not playing even mana dorks seems like bad advise.

So far I'm running 10 sources of ramp. Should I cut some of the higher CC stuff for mana rocks or something?

Yes. Let's look at your ramp

Cmc 0-1
Sol ring
Mana crypt
GSZ ( if you add dryad arbor and you probly should using GSZ making it great in an opener)
Map isn't really ramp and doesn't really cost 1 and I don't see cradle

Cmc 2
StE
Coiling oracle (maybe not really) you don't run skull clamp your not a Mormir big deck why is this good other than you dint gave enough acceleration and your curve is slow?
Explore > still not guaranteed ramp but it's not bad.

So pretty much right now your not ramping turn 1-2 without crypt or ring which you don't run black so you can't tutor turn 1. You run zero cmc 2 natures lore type cards I guess STE who is great but most a rampant growth as you don't run survival or anything that really cares about his 1/1 body.

At cmc 3 you have.
Cultivate
k reach
Trinket Mage which eats one of the ramps from your deck

That's it yavimaya finds lands doesn't ramp.

This is not enough ramp at cmc 1-3 fir how many cmc 4+ spells you want to play

Your cmc 4 "ramp" is not very good

Solemn is only a 2/2 fir signs it ramps 1 at 4 you don't play pod why is it good?

Your general draws cards if you play mana dorks and cmc 2 ramp you can drop one value card at cmc 4-5 then refill.

I think you want to be going turn 1 mana dork crypt ring expiration etc or ponder / preordain to craft
Turn 2 ramp
Turn 3 ramp / value play
Turn 4 value play / zegana refill
Turn 5 zegana/ switch to control
Turn 6 switch to control / tutor or play key card IE prophet
Then you play counter control making value plays on turn until you close the game that's how I see this working best

Quote from moxnix

Yes. Let's look at your ramp

Cmc 0-1
Sol ring
Mana crypt
GSZ ( if you add dryad arbor and you probly should using GSZ making it great in an opener)
Map isn't really ramp and doesn't really cost 1 and I don't see cradle

Cmc 2
StE
Coiling oracle (maybe not really) you don't run skull clamp your not a Mormir big deck why is this good other than you dint gave enough acceleration and your curve is slow?
Explore > still not guaranteed ramp but it's not bad.

So pretty much right now your not ramping turn 1-2 without crypt or ring which you don't run black so you can't tutor turn 1. You run zero cmc 2 natures lore type cards I guess STE who is great but most a rampant growth as you don't run survival or anything that really cares about his 1/1 body.

At cmc 3 you have.
Cultivate
k reach
Trinket Mage which eats one of the ramps from your deck

That's it yavimaya finds lands doesn't ramp.

This is not enough ramp at cmc 1-3 fir how many cmc 4+ spells you want to play

Your cmc 4 "ramp" is not very good

Solemn is only a 2/2 fir signs it ramps 1 at 4 you don't play pod why is it good?

Your general draws cards if you play mana dorks and cmc 2 ramp you can drop one value card at cmc 4-5 then refill.

I think you want to be going turn 1 mana dork crypt ring expiration etc or ponder / preordain to craft
Turn 2 ramp
Turn 3 ramp / value play
Turn 4 value play / zegana refill
Turn 5 zegana/ switch to control
Turn 6 switch to control / tutor or play key card IE prophet
Then you play counter control making value plays on turn until you close the game that's how I see this working best

So I think I'll do this:

That's a good start but you need to axe some of those 7 drops like you don't need 10 random 7 drops like blue primordial. I would run mana dorks over the slow ramp like solemn you don't care that it dies to wrath as you don't wrath and play counters you care that it's playable turn 1 and cost 1/4 as much. Cut some more high cmc random "good stuff" for 4 or more cmc 1-2 ramp and I'll be ok with your list for a starting point

Quote from moxnix

That's a good start but you need to axe some of those 7 drops like you don't need 10 random 7 drops like blue primordial. I would run mana dorks over the slow ramp like solemn you don't care that it dies to wrath as you don't wrath and play counters you care that it's playable turn 1 and cost 1/4 as much. Cut some more high cmc random "good stuff" for 4 or more cmc 1-2 ramp and I'll be ok with your list for a starting point

Yeah, I'm thinking of cutting the Avenger of Zendikar+Craterhoof Behemoth pairing as well, it's just so cool to Tooth and Nail Entwined for them!

That is a fine win con just don't think you can run that and memnarch and double primordial and try to kick RoR etc etc were getting their though you can figure out what big cards you want to play as you test but you don't want to just test them all lets fix the basics first

Quote from moxnix

That is a fine win con just don't think you can run that and memnarch and double primordial and try to kick RoR etc etc were getting their though you can figure out what big cards you want to play as you test but you don't want to just test them all lets fix the basics first

Indeed. Thanks a lot for helping me smooth this list out!

Quote from moxnix

They cost 1 mana.... If your playing control you still at least play brainstorm you get ancestral recall card quality off fetch lands ....

That's assuming you have a fetchland at the ready when casting Brainstorm, which is far less likely than it should be. In Legacy you have 4 Brainstorms and about 6-10 fetches in a 60-cards deck while in EDH you have 1 Brainstorm and usually 3-6 fetches (4 in this particular case) in a 99-cards deck - just do the math. Sure, other shuffle effects (various tutors, ramp spells etc.) help a bit here, but unlike fetchlands, they cost mana to cast, so you may not always have the precious left.

My point is: this is not Legacy and Brainstorm isn't an autoinclude in all blue decks. If you have a lot (and by that, I mean A LOT) of shuffle effects and/or your general could utilize it beyond its usual function (Melek, Talrand etc.), then sure, Brainstorm is a good card and you should probably play it. If not, don't bother and run another tutor instead - for example, I have a GAAIV control/stax deck with 3 fetches and 6 other shuffle effect and no, I'm not playing Brainstorm there.

(Ponder and Preordain are even worse - I'd almost always run another tutor/combo piece/whatever than any of them.)

That doesn't really matter when his mana curve had sever issues like no 1 drops. There are plenty of builds I don't use the cards in except brainstorm which I would always use. First I don't think I own any decks with only 9 shuffle effects I typically run 30 or more and search my deck almost every turn in most builds. Playing diabolical tutor over ponder is not a good idea in a competitive meta as most games( for me 70-80%) are over turn 3-6 you cannot waste 4 mana on a sorcery speed tutor. Personal tutor is limited to sorcs which is fine in some builds but telegraphing your play at sorc speed for only sorcs is pretty bad in this list take a look at it. Not very good at all. My meta is much like legacy and I use brainstorm to dodge thoughtseize just like legacy. Preordain is weaker and if he plays enough mana dirks he doesn't need it but this is his thread about his decks he had 4 1 drops and you told him to cut them....

I was going to say that maybe the deck in my sig might have an idea or two for you, but it's not a highly competitive build like you seem to be working on...

Deadeye Navigator gives a redundant option for infinite mana with Palinchron.

Staff of Domination + Vorel of the Hull Clade + Triskelion for the win. With infinite mana obviously. I'm trying to remember the way my friend used to make infinite mana in his Vorel deck...

Quote from moxnix

That doesn't really matter when his mana curve had sever issues like no 1 drops. There are plenty of builds I don't use the cards in except brainstorm which I would always use. First I don't think I own any decks with only 9 shuffle effects I typically run 30 or more and search my deck almost every turn in most builds. Playing diabolical tutor over ponder is not a good idea in a competitive meta as most games (for me 70-80%) are over turn 3-6 you cannot waste 4 mana on a sorcery speed tutor. Personal tutor is limited to sorcs which is fine in some builds but telegraphing your play at sorc speed for only sorcs is pretty bad in this list take a look at it. Not very good at all. My meta is much like legacy and I use brainstorm to dodge thoughtseize just like legacy. Preordain is weaker and if he plays enough mana dirks he doesn't need it but this is his thread about his decks he had 4 1 drops and you told him to cut them....

I'm not sure what kind of format are you playing - is it some kind of 1vs1 or something? Because in multiplayer, where you're facing 3-4 opponents at the same time, cards like Thoughtseize are completely useless, having four 1-drops is completely normal, mana dorks are usually bad (most of green decks don't use them at all) and games are very, VERY rarely over after three or even six turns.

Quote from Vysogota

I'm not sure what kind of format are you playing - is it some kind of 1vs1 or something? Because in multiplayer, where you're facing 3-4 opponents at the same time, cards like Thoughtseize are completely useless, having four 1-drops is completely normal, mana dorks are usually bad (most of green decks don't use them at all) and games are very, VERY rarely over after three or even six turns.

Thoughtsieze useless?
Mana dorks are bad?
Four 1 drops is normal ?
Games don't end before turn 6?

Am I being trolled? He wants to be competitive he needs to be fast period.

What he's trying to say is that EDH plays out differently in 1v1 vs. Multiplayer. Let's break it down...

-Thoughtseize: It only targets one player, thus it's more useful in 1v1 situations. Something that makes everyone discard, like Mindslicer or the black Myojin is better suited, because hitting only one player with Thoughtseize is going to make them target you.
-Mana dorks tend to die easier in multiplayer, since the odds that one player will cast a Sweeper are more likely. In multiplayer, if you run spells that ramp land, like Skyshroud Claim, even if someone sweeps the board you haven't lost your mana. Usually the only creature dorks played in Multiplayer are at the top tier of what they can do, like Rofellos and the new Karametra Acolyte.
-Four drops are normal for multiplayer since the format is generally slower than duels. Games can take hours sometimes, and politics between players usually gives everyone the time to develop the board and player bigger creatures/spells in the late game.
-Games can end before turn 6, but then 2-5 players grumble and either start a new pod without the person that comboed out, or they keep playing as if nothing happened and go for 2nd place. The slower nature of multiplayer makes most people desire to have full opportunities to play as much as everyone else.

It is possible to be competitive for multiplayer, but 1v1 competitive (French) is different from Multiplayer competitive, and the examples given only reflective 1v1. I'd say the vast majority of the best "competitive" multiplayer decks aren't the ones that always win before the 6th turn, but always win regardless of what happens and are strong because of their consistency in winning longer matches with multiple opponents, even when everyone turns against them.

Your simply wrong but if you want to argue with me feel free to pm me instead if derailing his thread.

Quote from Comicalflop

What he's trying to say is that EDH plays out differently in 1v1 vs. Multiplayer. Let's break it down...

-Thoughtseize: It only targets one player, thus it's more useful in 1v1 situations. Something that makes everyone discard, like Mindslicer or the black Myojin is better suited, because hitting only one player with Thoughtseize is going to make them target you.
-Mana dorks tend to die easier in multiplayer, since the odds that one player will cast a Sweeper are more likely. In multiplayer, if you run spells that ramp land, like Skyshroud Claim, even if someone sweeps the board you haven't lost your mana. Usually the only creature dorks played in Multiplayer are at the top tier of what they can do, like Rofellos and the new Karametra Acolyte.
-Four drops are normal for multiplayer since the format is generally slower than duels. Games can take hours sometimes, and politics between players usually gives everyone the time to develop the board and player bigger creatures/spells in the late game.
-Games can end before turn 6, but then 2-5 players grumble and either start a new pod without the person that comboed out, or they keep playing as if nothing happened and go for 2nd place. The slower nature of multiplayer makes most people desire to have full opportunities to play as much as everyone else.

It is possible to be competitive for multiplayer, but 1v1 competitive (French) is different from Multiplayer competitive, and the examples given only reflective 1v1. I'd say the vast majority of the best "competitive" multiplayer decks aren't the ones that always win before the 6th turn, but always win regardless of what happens and are strong because of their consistency in winning longer matches with multiple opponents, even when everyone turns against them.

Yeah, I don't see myself closing out games by turn 6 (nor would I want to). I like to enjoy my games but since we are going to be playing these "fairly competitive" decks against each other I definitely need the combo option.