So, the basic concept is pretty simple. Make tokens, make more tokens, put a bunch of +1/+1 counters on your huge token army, win. Not really much more to say, other than that some things that would seem obvious were only not included for space reasons.
I had never even heard of Umbral Mantle until I looked at this list (Hey, I don't get out much), seems neat!
I actually took out Umbral Mantle for being way to insane and causing too much math.
You are correct about the altar.
I feel like March of Souls is severely underwhelming.
And I don't really feel that I need the draw power. If I did, those would be the first ones I would pick up.
Also, Heirophants produces much more mana than I need, but if it's your thing, goes infinite with Rhys, Thousand-Year Elixir, and Umbral Mantle
Edit: I actually edited the original list to get rid of all (unintentional) infinite combos, because they are heavily frowned upon in my meta, so I limit them to a couple of decks, and strive to keep them out of others.
If you want to have the ability to go infinite fairly easily and like this list, find some logical drops for these cards:
I personally avoided the above, because this deck is already pretty strong for my meta, and I don't want to be degenerate. If your meta is filled with well tuned decks, and more cutthroat players, pick all of the above up.
Ok, so I realize I shot down cards for meta reasons, namely being too strong, so I'll give you an idea as to what kinds of suggestions I'm looking for.
Are there any good boardwide buffs I'm missing? If so, what are they? What would you drop for them?
Is there anything that produces a good amount of large tokens or an absurd amount of small tokens that I'm missing? See second question above. See third question above.
Do you feel like I need more ramp? If so, what's good, but not gonna be "Oops, I win on turn 5?"
Do I need draw engines? See second question above.
Note: # of boardwipes will fluctuate, however, the only boardwipes currently printed that will ever be in this deck are:
I'm not a hug fan of Akroma's Memorial in token decks. Not that it isn't good, I just can never fit it in for thematic reasons. Just too much other stuff I'd rather do instead.
As for ramp, I think that is just a matter of deck building preference. I would tend to use what I assume is a fairly standard package of Kodama's Reach / Cultivate / Harrow / Explosive Vegetation, though looking through my current token deck I only have the Explosive Vegetation. I do run Druids' Repository and Citanul Hierophants though, just because they fit better thematically.
I've seen similar builds with Altar of Dementia and/or Hair-Strung Koto as secondary win conditions also. Something to think about if that does anything for you.
I run Armageddon in exactly one deck, and it is never fun lol! I pull that deck out only on the rarest of rare ocassions.
I'm not a hug fan of Akroma's Memorial in token decks. Not that it isn't good, I just can never fit it in for thematic reasons. Just too much other stuff I'd rather do instead.
As for ramp, I think that is just a matter of deck building preference. I would tend to use what I assume is a fairly standard package of Kodama's Reach / Cultivate / Harrow / Explosive Vegetation, though looking through my current token deck I only have the Explosive Vegetation. I do run Druids' Repository and Citanul Hierophants though, just because they fit better thematically.
I've seen similar builds with Altar of Dementia and/or Hair-Strung Koto as secondary win conditions also. Something to think about if that does anything for you.
I run Armageddon in exactly one deck, and it is never fun lol! I pull that deck out only on the rarest of rare ocassions.
I'll take the suggestion on Beastmaster Ascencion. I'll work on my ramp package and draw engines in a while, because after really putting some thought into it, I do feel like I need more of both, but don't have the time to fix it right now. I'll also probably pick up some tutors. The drop-for-combo list will probably be most of what gets cut, though.
I don't like the mill win cons, though another alt wincon that doesn't involve milling would be a plus if anyone can think of it. Maybe Blasting Station??
As someone who has played Rhys quite a bit and have a very competitive version I hope I can chime in. Though it hurts to not see Elesh Norn and Craterhoof for win cons I understand your going low power. Mentor of the Meek is very good in Rhys be sure to fit this in. A flat out awesome card with token generation is Champion of Lambholt, can win games very quickly. Every GW token deck should have a Glare of Subdual in there as well. Mirror Entity can be another wincon, and you forgot one the most awesome token generators in Hero of Bladehold.
I noticed your deck is lacking GY interaction, I'd at least put an Ooze in there, way more versatile then Intrepid Hero (which generates no tokens).
As someone who has played Rhys quite a bit and have a very competitive version I hope I can chime in. Though it hurts to not see Elesh Norn and Craterhoof for win cons I understand your going low power. Mentor of the Meek is very good in Rhys be sure to fit this in. A flat out awesome card with token generation is Champion of Lambholt, can win games very quickly. Every GW token deck should have a Glare of Subdual in there as well. Mirror Entity can be another wincon, and you forgot one the most awesome token generators in Hero of Bladehold.
I noticed your deck is lacking GY interaction, I'd at least put an Ooze in there, way more versatile then Intrepid Hero (which generates no tokens).
Norn and Craterhoof are fine, I just forgot them originally, I'll pick them up. No one I know really considers either degenerate, even in lists like this. I am considering Mentor, just not sure what I'd drop for it. I like Champion too, and again, will find a place for it. I don't really care for Glare, it's one of those cards that's either degenerate or useless, never in a happy middle-ground. I don't like Hero for this deck, mainly because Battle Cry is overkill with the sheer volume of tokens I make, and her token generation is slow and dependent on entering the red zone, which is negative politically. As for Ooze, which one??? I'm assuming Scavenging in which case, due to low gy-value in my meta, I'd rather have the removal engine. If your meta is more gy deck heavy, it's perfect, and Hero is a logical drop.
1 Twilight Drover
1 Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sylvan Primordial
1 Armada Wurm
1 Trostani's Summoner
1 Wayfaring Temple
1 Hornet Queen
1 Rampaging Baloths
1 Voice of Resurgence
1 Requiem Angel
1 Geist-Honored Monk
1 Mikaeus the Lunarch
1 Plaguemaw Beast
1 Utopia Mycon
1 Kazandu Tuskcaller
1 Vitaspore Thallid
1 Heliod, God of the Sun
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Luminate Primordial
1 Avacyn, Angel of Hope
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Living Hive
1 Angel of Jubilation
1 Odric, Master Tactician
1 Intrepid Hero
1 Champion of Lambholt
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Ajani, Caller of the Pride
1 Ajani Goldmane
1 Cathars' Crusade
1 Beastmaster Ascencion
1 Doubling Season
1 Paralell Lives
1 Primal Vigor
1 Mirari's Wake
1 Mana Reflection
1 Sol Ring
1 Mimic Vat
1 Soul Foundry
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Rings of Brighthearth
1 Titan Forge
1 Phyrexian Altar
1 Conjurer's Closet
1 Thousand-Year Elixir
1 Aura Mutation
1 Beast Within
1 Mercy Killing
1 Krosan Grip
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Nomads' Assembly
1 Conqueror's Pledge
1 Advent of the Wurm
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Boundless Realms
1 Increasing Devotion
1 Wrath of God
1 Crush of Wurms
1 Grove of the Gaurdian
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Sunpetal Grove
1 Command Tower
1 Gavony Township
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Brushland
1 Wooded Bastion
15 Forest
13 Plains
Any comments or suggestions are quite welcome.
- Séance
+ Beastmaster Ascencion
I forget what I dropped for them, and forgot to edit this when I picked them up but:
+ Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
+ Craterhoof Behemoth
11/26/13
- Spawning Grounds
+ Champion of Lambholt
Citanul Hierophants is helpful with tokens, especially if you are running X spells.
March of Souls is an often overlooked board wipe in token strategies, most notably alongside Cathars' Crusade.
Maybe Skullmulcher and Skullclamp for card draw?
I had never even heard of Umbral Mantle until I looked at this list (Hey, I don't get out much), seems neat!
I actually took out Umbral Mantle for being way to insane and causing too much math.
You are correct about the altar.
I feel like March of Souls is severely underwhelming.
And I don't really feel that I need the draw power. If I did, those would be the first ones I would pick up.
Also, Heirophants produces much more mana than I need, but if it's your thing, goes infinite with Rhys, Thousand-Year Elixir, and Umbral Mantle
Edit: I actually edited the original list to get rid of all (unintentional) infinite combos, because they are heavily frowned upon in my meta, so I limit them to a couple of decks, and strive to keep them out of others.
If you want to have the ability to go infinite fairly easily and like this list, find some logical drops for these cards:
1 Eladamri's Call
1 Altar of Bone
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Idyllic Tutor
1 Earthcraft
1 Umbral Mantle
1 Squirrel Nest (Maybe, outside of the Earthcraft combo, it's fairly subpar)
I personally avoided the above, because this deck is already pretty strong for my meta, and I don't want to be degenerate. If your meta is filled with well tuned decks, and more cutthroat players, pick all of the above up.
I would drop this stuff for it:
1 Soul Foundry
1 Call of the Conclave
1 Fresh Meat
1 Living Hive
1 Angel of Jubilation
1 Advent of the Wurm
1 Armada Wurm
1 Twilight Drover
1 Saproling Symbiosis
What, if anything, should I drop for Akroma's Memorial?
Are there any good boardwide buffs I'm missing? If so, what are they? What would you drop for them?
Is there anything that produces a good amount of large tokens or an absurd amount of small tokens that I'm missing? See second question above. See third question above.
Do you feel like I need more ramp? If so, what's good, but not gonna be "Oops, I win on turn 5?"
Do I need draw engines? See second question above.
Note: # of boardwipes will fluctuate, however, the only boardwipes currently printed that will ever be in this deck are:
1 Akroma's Vengeance
1 Catastrophe
1 Rout
1 Planar Cleansing
1 Armageddon
1 Austere Command
I'll swap out between these, probably topping out at five wipes at a time until I settle on something that feels comfortable and plays well.
Beastmaster Ascension is the best buff I can think of with tokens. Could easily take out Séance for that.
White Sun's Zenith is notably missing. Mobilization maybe too.
As for ramp, I think that is just a matter of deck building preference. I would tend to use what I assume is a fairly standard package of Kodama's Reach / Cultivate / Harrow / Explosive Vegetation, though looking through my current token deck I only have the Explosive Vegetation. I do run Druids' Repository and Citanul Hierophants though, just because they fit better thematically.
Another draw engine I forgot about previously is Mentor of the Meek.
I've seen similar builds with Altar of Dementia and/or Hair-Strung Koto as secondary win conditions also. Something to think about if that does anything for you.
I run Armageddon in exactly one deck, and it is never fun lol! I pull that deck out only on the rarest of rare ocassions.
I'll take the suggestion on Beastmaster Ascencion. I'll work on my ramp package and draw engines in a while, because after really putting some thought into it, I do feel like I need more of both, but don't have the time to fix it right now. I'll also probably pick up some tutors. The drop-for-combo list will probably be most of what gets cut, though.
I don't like the mill win cons, though another alt wincon that doesn't involve milling would be a plus if anyone can think of it. Maybe Blasting Station??
I noticed your deck is lacking GY interaction, I'd at least put an Ooze in there, way more versatile then Intrepid Hero (which generates no tokens).
Norn and Craterhoof are fine, I just forgot them originally, I'll pick them up. No one I know really considers either degenerate, even in lists like this. I am considering Mentor, just not sure what I'd drop for it. I like Champion too, and again, will find a place for it. I don't really care for Glare, it's one of those cards that's either degenerate or useless, never in a happy middle-ground. I don't like Hero for this deck, mainly because Battle Cry is overkill with the sheer volume of tokens I make, and her token generation is slow and dependent on entering the red zone, which is negative politically. As for Ooze, which one??? I'm assuming Scavenging in which case, due to low gy-value in my meta, I'd rather have the removal engine. If your meta is more gy deck heavy, it's perfect, and Hero is a logical drop.