So I'm very new to competitive 1 vs 1 French EDH. The format first became appealing to me while playing on cockatrice. I would spectate games while bored and waiting for a regular EDH game to fire. What I noticed was that most of the people playing the format were much nicer and easy to get along with. The regular EDH crowd does not sit well with me for many reasons that I wont go into here, but suffice to say, I've met some much cooler people in 1v1 games.
Griselbrand is my favorite legend in the game. He has everything that I really like, mono black, card draw, and an off the charts power level. I was sad that he was banned in regular commander so fast because I never really got a chance to use him. So when I heard that he was legal and powerful in 1v1 I was excited to try him out.
This build is mono black control. And this thread is hopefully going to be a learning experience for me. I want to learn about french EDH and I want to learn about the best mono black control options. I hope that it can one day be a resource for other players with the same goals.
Alternate Options
Honestly, I'm not sure if any other mono black commanders are good for control in the format. This is mostly due to my inexperience. There is an awesome Iname, Death Aspect deck that I've played agaisnt but it seems more like a combo deck then a control one. You guys help me out here.
Deck List
This deck was built by Damion Marion and I found the list here. Its really solid already and I only made a few changes to his initial list. I cut Thawing Glaciers for Encroaching Wastes. I feel like Wastes will be better the turns when it enters untapped and taps for the mana immediately. I also cut Lotus Bloom for Rain of Tears. Lotus is a dead draw in the late game and only helps for an early Griselbrand. Since we are aiming to control, I think pushing the LD theme is going to be better then a slow land and a combo piece.
What I really need from you guys is help learning the format. Any suggestions and potential decks I might have problems with would be a huge help. Thanks guys.
If you need testing hit me up, I'm online pretty regularly. As to the list, I think you should reconsider the Bloom. Grisel's a huge target, so if he actually lands he's public enemy #1 and gets killed almost instantaneously, so that extra mana even late game is a pretty big deal. Depending on the deck you'll probably cast him 2-3 times in a game, if not more, so every little scrap of mana becomes pretty vital. And early game it can help allow Grisel as soon as T4. Just my 2 cents.
Edit: Oh, no Distress? It's been a staple in most Grisel lists I've seen.
Nice games earlier Yeah, the Distress is pretty solid.
2 other things I didn't see on there are Toxic Deluge and Geth's Verdict. I think Geth's is better than your other instant edict by a tiny margin, and more sweepers is never a bad thing. Oh, and a lot of people really like to run the Coalition Relic as well from what I've seen. Infest is another early game sweeper to help deal with things like Ezuri elfball, Animar, Possh tokens, Marath swarms... Early game sweepers are pretty essential in a ton of matchups to slow your opponent down enough for you to get Grisl out with enough life to use his ability. Another card that I've seen run pretty exclusively in Grisel lists is Dystopia, since it's not like everyone and their mother doesn't run g or w in their decks. Another option though not vital is Tainted Aether which is hilarious against creature decks. Although you have enough removal that it might not be a problem... And last one, Snuff Out is another staple that I can remember. oh, and Sudden Death NEEDS to be in here. Best anti-Zur card ever printed. Seriously.
My 2 cents
Edit: I think you should cut the Rancid earth/Rain of Tears. I love the idea, and I think the dustbowl/sinhole are solid includes, but mono-b isn't a dedicated LD color, so I think they're just taking up slots. I think that having a few ways to deal with problem lands like the tec edge, wasteland, sinkhole etc are good, and the dustbowl can give you an excellent source of late game disruption. The extra 2 spells however I feel could better go to some extra sweepers or more card draw.
It's better to think of Griselbrand as combo - in the way that Wizards views the Wolf Run Ramp decks a year ago as combo. Mana plus more mana equals Yawgmoth's Bargain!
List is missing the standard black card draw:
Read the Bones
Sign in Blood
Night's Whisper
I'm not super excited for more artifacts. Every time I play them they get destroyed since I run so few permanents. Maybe Lion's Eye Diamond is a better choice? I can hold it until the last minute and get a cheap grisel.
I'm not super excited for more artifacts. Every time I play them they get destroyed since I run so few permanents. Maybe Lion's Eye Diamond is a better choice? I can hold it until the last minute and get a cheap grisel.
I know that in both my lists I have about 5-6 ways to kill artifacts. Most Griselface lists run 10-12 artifacts. Sure, some of them are going ot get destroyed, but the faster you get Grisel on the board the better your chances are of refilling your hand. I understand not wanting to play them to just have them get blown up, but at the very least that's a card/mana that you opponent has burned getting rid of a ramp spell. Lawl.
Testing is where it's at, obviously. Try it out, play a couple dozen games. If it doesn't feel right then cut them and put other stuff in and test that, see if you miss the accel.
I don't hate the idea of LED though, that doesn't seem terrible early game.
Ya lions eye Diamond is amazing for gettting griselbrand out quick if you know the coast is clear. as for dystopia its MVP. Deals with anything black has trouble with ie: enchantments and plainswalkers
also, this is just a personal preference but because we play bubbling muck and cabal coffers we really need to watch how many non basics we play. id probly remove
for reg swamps. honestly they arnt needed as we dont want to lose our own lands because we trying to ramp into Griselbrand. If the opponent has a land that troubles us ie: Maze of ith then we can just pay 7 life and draw into or a tutor for wasteland (or pithing needle)
I'm having little to no success with the deck lately against almost all generals and decks. I added more swamps and upped the land count to 42. I dont think this is going to help all too much though. I'm finding it almost impossible to be esper control or derevi. I'll keep you guys posted.
Yeah, those 2 are going to be really tough matchups for you. Esper control can just out-draw you and auto-counter Grisel, it's a really tough matchup. The disruption that Derevi can play is also absurdly strong, and it'll really mess with your ramp and being able to actually cast Grisel. That list is also somewhat fast, so it's hard to race.
Grisel (from what I've seen) is a really strong anti-aggro/midrange/combo deck because of the disruption, how hard Grisel is to deal with and the lifelink/carddraw. Against hard control though it seems to fall a little flat. Unfortunately I don't know of too many black cards that are just hard counters to blue/control :/ That's where green and red really come to the forefront.
Maybe you just need more hand disruption and ramp to simplify the deck? If you shred your opponents hand before you hit 7 mana, then you can cast and draw with Grisly B more consistently. Tutor for Cavern of Souls more Often, and consider running other big threats (Grave Titan, Wurmcoil Engine).
Hand disruption is really powerful when playing against a deck that packs counterspells. Tutoring for Cavern of Souls is also really good (obviously). If you're still having trouble, there's always Defense Grid (really solid against blue decks).
Edit: And if you're looking for an alternate wincon, I'd say Army of the Damned is the way to go.
Its not really blue decks that trouble me. Its mostly just tri-color good stuff decks that are hard to beat. There are a lot of decks like these in the meta game as far as I can tell. I can beat their creature draws but low CMC powerful artifacts and enchantments that support them just end games for me. Jitte, Survival, Sylvan Library, planeswalkers, and so much more. Everyone is packing the best cards in 3 colors where any permanent that sticks pretty much wins the game.
How am I supposed to beat Static Orb out of Derevi or Zur's Weirding out of Oloro? I like playing my deck but this format isn't nice to pet generals. My deck is mana and removal. I run a ton of kill spells but peoples threats are cheaper more versatile and sometimes end things immediately. I ran 40 lands and missed drops. Now I run 42 lands and draw like 5 lands of Griselbrand. The deck is fun when it works, and it wins. Its just so miserable when it doesn't.
I think with the addition of the new 2013 generals it puts Giselbrand solidly in tier 1.5, imho. It's an awesome deck, and absurdly powerful against certain decks/archetypes, but against a large percentage of the current metagame it's going to fall a little short.
So now it's time to choose whether to kepe playing Grisel and try to make it as good as you possibly can while still expecting to lose a decent amount of your matches while at the same time playing the general that you love, or; switch to a more competitive 1v1 general/decklist.
Now, one thing I will say is that while you're certainly not new to magic or EDH, you are farily new to 1v1 and it's a pretty steep learning curve. If I were in your spot (Which I was up to about 2 months ago with my Skullbriar list) and playing a deck that I loved that I felt wasn't competitive against some of the new decks out there, Iwould just keep playing. It really is at least half experience, knowing what card to rip out of whose hand, how to bait what strategy, when it's good to burn removal and play a control match and when to go balls to the wall ramp to land a griselbrand, etc etc. I would give it a good solid 3 months of extensive playtesting and tweaking before chucking it and starting fresh. Just my 2 cents.
At least get it ready and play it in my tournie! You never know, you might win ^.^
Right now I'm testing out a thraximundar list that is going a little better. It has the same strategy but better options and some sick PWs. Tons of removal and discard with some great red sweepers.
Alternate Options
Deck List
0 Everflowing Chalice
1 Expedition Map
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Grim Monolith
2 Mind Stone
2 Scepter of Fugue
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Basalt Monolith
3 Oblivion Stone
3 Worn Powerstone
4 Nevinyrral's Disk
4 Thran Dynamo
5 Gilded Lotus
4 Solemn Simulacrum
5 Kagemaro, First to Suffer
3 Phyrexian Arena
4 Night of Soul's Betrayal
5 Cure of Death's Hold
1 Cremate
1 Dark Ritual
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Go for the Throat
2 Grasp of Darkness
2 Victim of Night
3 Dismember
3 Hero's Downfall
4 Tendrils of Corruption
5 Contagion
1x Skeletal Scrying
1 Innocent Blood
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
2 Chainer's Edict
2 Cruel Edict
2 Demonic Tutor
2 Hymm to Tourach
2 Sinkhole
3 Beseech the Queen
3 Infest
3 Praetor's Grasp
3 Rain of Tears
3 Rancid Earth
3 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Damation
4 Massacre
4 Mutilate
5 Mind Sludge
6 Corrupt
7 All is Dust
8 Decree of Pain
2x Black Sun's Zenith
2x Mind Shatter
4 Liliana of the Dark Realms
6 Sorin Markov
7 Karn Liberated
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Dust Bowl
1 Encroaching Wastes
1 Maze of Ith
1 Rishadan Port
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Wasteland
30 Swamp
Closing Thoughts
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If you need testing hit me up, I'm online pretty regularly. As to the list, I think you should reconsider the Bloom. Grisel's a huge target, so if he actually lands he's public enemy #1 and gets killed almost instantaneously, so that extra mana even late game is a pretty big deal. Depending on the deck you'll probably cast him 2-3 times in a game, if not more, so every little scrap of mana becomes pretty vital. And early game it can help allow Grisel as soon as T4. Just my 2 cents.
Edit: Oh, no Distress? It's been a staple in most Grisel lists I've seen.
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2 other things I didn't see on there are Toxic Deluge and Geth's Verdict. I think Geth's is better than your other instant edict by a tiny margin, and more sweepers is never a bad thing. Oh, and a lot of people really like to run the Coalition Relic as well from what I've seen. Infest is another early game sweeper to help deal with things like Ezuri elfball, Animar, Possh tokens, Marath swarms... Early game sweepers are pretty essential in a ton of matchups to slow your opponent down enough for you to get Grisl out with enough life to use his ability. Another card that I've seen run pretty exclusively in Grisel lists is Dystopia, since it's not like everyone and their mother doesn't run g or w in their decks. Another option though not vital is Tainted Aether which is hilarious against creature decks. Although you have enough removal that it might not be a problem... And last one, Snuff Out is another staple that I can remember. oh, and Sudden Death NEEDS to be in here. Best anti-Zur card ever printed. Seriously.
My 2 cents
Edit: I think you should cut the Rancid earth/Rain of Tears. I love the idea, and I think the dustbowl/sinhole are solid includes, but mono-b isn't a dedicated LD color, so I think they're just taking up slots. I think that having a few ways to deal with problem lands like the tec edge, wasteland, sinkhole etc are good, and the dustbowl can give you an excellent source of late game disruption. The extra 2 spells however I feel could better go to some extra sweepers or more card draw.
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[Primer]BGSkullbriar: From Life, Death Eternal (1v1)GB[Primer]
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BGRProssh-Gro (1V1)RGB
+7. Also: LED.
It's better to think of Griselbrand as combo - in the way that Wizards views the Wolf Run Ramp decks a year ago as combo. Mana plus more mana equals Yawgmoth's Bargain!
List is missing the standard black card draw:
Read the Bones
Sign in Blood
Night's Whisper
Thanks so much for the tips. I'm about to head to work at the moment so I can't really digest everything.
GWUBAtraxa, Praetor's Voice PrimerGWUB
GWURoon Bant Blink WhateverGWU
BRGLord Windgrace LandsBRG
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics
[Primer]WIsamaru, the Howling BladeW[Primer]
[Primer]BGSkullbriar: From Life, Death Eternal (1v1)GB[Primer]
BGRbighaben and Feverous' Prossh, Skyraider of KherRGB
BGRProssh-Gro (1V1)RGB
Kagemaro, First to Suffer, Rain of Tears, Rancid Earth, Scepter of Fugue, Corrupt.
In:
Distress, Toxic Deluge, Sign in Blood, Read the Bones, Coalition Relic
I'm not super excited for more artifacts. Every time I play them they get destroyed since I run so few permanents. Maybe Lion's Eye Diamond is a better choice? I can hold it until the last minute and get a cheap grisel.
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I know that in both my lists I have about 5-6 ways to kill artifacts. Most Griselface lists run 10-12 artifacts. Sure, some of them are going ot get destroyed, but the faster you get Grisel on the board the better your chances are of refilling your hand. I understand not wanting to play them to just have them get blown up, but at the very least that's a card/mana that you opponent has burned getting rid of a ramp spell. Lawl.
Testing is where it's at, obviously. Try it out, play a couple dozen games. If it doesn't feel right then cut them and put other stuff in and test that, see if you miss the accel.
I don't hate the idea of LED though, that doesn't seem terrible early game.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics
[Primer]WIsamaru, the Howling BladeW[Primer]
[Primer]BGSkullbriar: From Life, Death Eternal (1v1)GB[Primer]
BGRbighaben and Feverous' Prossh, Skyraider of KherRGB
BGRProssh-Gro (1V1)RGB
32 Swamp
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Wasteland
1 Homeward Path
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Petrified Field
Accel:
1 Fellwar stone
1 Mind Stone
1 Coldsteel Heart
1 Charcoal Diamond
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Bloom
1 Dark Ritual
1 Bubbling Muck
1 Grim Monolith
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Worn Powerstone
1 Duress
1 Blackmail
1 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Unmask
1 Mire's Toll
1 Infest
1 Snuff Out
1 Victim of Night
1 Innocent Blood
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Devour Flesh
1 Geth's Verdict
1 Dismember
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Go for the Throat
1 Sudden Death
1 Tendrils of Corruption
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Dystopia
1 Damnation
1 Mutilate
1 All Is Dust
1 Decree of Pain
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Beseech the Queen
1 Diabolic Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
1 Sign in Blood
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Night's Whisper
1 Read the Bones
1 Pithing Needle
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Mindslaver
1 Karn Liberated
Commander:
1 Griselbrand
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Ya lions eye Diamond is amazing for gettting griselbrand out quick if you know the coast is clear. as for dystopia its MVP. Deals with anything black has trouble with ie: enchantments and plainswalkers
also, this is just a personal preference but because we play bubbling muck and cabal coffers we really need to watch how many non basics we play. id probly remove
for reg swamps. honestly they arnt needed as we dont want to lose our own lands because we trying to ramp into Griselbrand. If the opponent has a land that troubles us ie: Maze of ith then we can just pay 7 life and draw into or a tutor for wasteland (or pithing needle)
i Play Petrified Field as a means of getting back cabal coffers in case it gets wasteland and Thespian's Stage as a 2nd coffers or swamp as needed
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Grisel (from what I've seen) is a really strong anti-aggro/midrange/combo deck because of the disruption, how hard Grisel is to deal with and the lifelink/carddraw. Against hard control though it seems to fall a little flat. Unfortunately I don't know of too many black cards that are just hard counters to blue/control :/ That's where green and red really come to the forefront.
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[Primer]WIsamaru, the Howling BladeW[Primer]
[Primer]BGSkullbriar: From Life, Death Eternal (1v1)GB[Primer]
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BGRProssh-Gro (1V1)RGB
Sygg, River Cutthroat (U/B Disruptive Aggro)
Edit: And if you're looking for an alternate wincon, I'd say Army of the Damned is the way to go.
How am I supposed to beat Static Orb out of Derevi or Zur's Weirding out of Oloro? I like playing my deck but this format isn't nice to pet generals. My deck is mana and removal. I run a ton of kill spells but peoples threats are cheaper more versatile and sometimes end things immediately. I ran 40 lands and missed drops. Now I run 42 lands and draw like 5 lands of Griselbrand. The deck is fun when it works, and it wins. Its just so miserable when it doesn't.
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GWURoon Bant Blink WhateverGWU
BRGLord Windgrace LandsBRG
So now it's time to choose whether to kepe playing Grisel and try to make it as good as you possibly can while still expecting to lose a decent amount of your matches while at the same time playing the general that you love, or; switch to a more competitive 1v1 general/decklist.
Now, one thing I will say is that while you're certainly not new to magic or EDH, you are farily new to 1v1 and it's a pretty steep learning curve. If I were in your spot (Which I was up to about 2 months ago with my Skullbriar list) and playing a deck that I loved that I felt wasn't competitive against some of the new decks out there, Iwould just keep playing. It really is at least half experience, knowing what card to rip out of whose hand, how to bait what strategy, when it's good to burn removal and play a control match and when to go balls to the wall ramp to land a griselbrand, etc etc. I would give it a good solid 3 months of extensive playtesting and tweaking before chucking it and starting fresh. Just my 2 cents.
At least get it ready and play it in my tournie! You never know, you might win ^.^
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics
[Primer]WIsamaru, the Howling BladeW[Primer]
[Primer]BGSkullbriar: From Life, Death Eternal (1v1)GB[Primer]
BGRbighaben and Feverous' Prossh, Skyraider of KherRGB
BGRProssh-Gro (1V1)RGB
GWUBAtraxa, Praetor's Voice PrimerGWUB
GWURoon Bant Blink WhateverGWU
BRGLord Windgrace LandsBRG