I'm kind of surprised that I haven't seen this being talked about more (and maybe it has, but a quick search on the forums yielded nothing outside of Duel Commander), but as Wildfire and I were discussing, Jeleva looks to be the commander that Grixis needsto enter the big boys playground. One of the weakest points of Grixis, before Jeleva, was the lack of a commander that "did things". One could argue that Bant had a similar problem, but at least Rafiq hits hard and they have access to green ramp / Tooth / Survival. Jeleva bypasses the need for excessive amounts of ramp by being an enabler for the most powerful combo card of all: Enter the Infinite.
The question then begins: how do we approach this deck? Do we run a ton of haste enablers? What are the best top-of-deck tutors? What are the risks? Once opponents understand what the deck is capable of, how are we going to cope with it?
Gameplan (Updated 10.31.13)
1a. Artifact ramp.
1b. Find and cast a haste enabler.
2. Cast a top-of-deck tutor for ETI.
3. Cast Jeleva and attack.
4. Play ETI from exile, drawing your whole deck.
5a. Use your free mana sources to play Laboratory Maniac and then cast Brainstorm to win the game. Don't forget about Chain of Vapor to generate the extra mana.
5b. If Maniac is exiled, the backup is to play Dream Halls and cast Beacon of Tomorrows, letting it be your last card infinitely. Or put the last card from your hand as Beacon, and manually cast another piece of time magic. Requires 8 permanent mana.
Sometimes, Jevela may exile your win conditions. This deck has been set up with several power plays. There are many possibilities that involve different sets of exiled cards, but the only combination that means you cannot win off ETI is: Laboratory Maniac and Beacon of Tomorrows both permanently exiled. If that ever happens, you're going to have to rely on Jeleva triggers to win you the game.
I hate to be a naysayer, but it seems very mediocre. Every move your make will be telegraphed. Like, they already know you're ramping into your General, plus a haste/Voltron piece. The fact that you're tutoring to top in addition is just...way too obvious/vulnerable.
And considering the fact that you'll be wanting to swing safely (and connect), I'd think having at least a few (more) Voltron elements would be good. (You can ditch the lame mass haste cards for more stuff like Greaves and Swiftfoot Boots.)
You should also be running more than 1 way to actually close out the game, especially since Jelly could theoretically exile all your (current) pieces.
I hate to be a naysayer, but it seems very mediocre. Every move your make will be telegraphed (especially tutoring to top and then swinging). Plus, it seems kinda slow (even with the ramp). And considering the fact that you'll be wanting to swing safely (and connect), I'd think having at least a few (more) Voltron elements would be good. (You can ditch the lame mass haste cards for more stuff like Greaves and Swiftfoot Boots.)
You should also be running more than 1 way to actually close out the game, especially since Jelly could theoretically exile all your (current) pieces.
I'm still not sold on the idea of this deck, but more power to you for trying.
Fair enough.
I don't see this deck being any slower than say, a Sharuum deck,which was the baseline for my "competitive deck" criteria. The # of combo pieces is technically less than Sharuum requires. It runs about the same amount of tutors and accelerants. It might not be as flexible, yes, but I detail that in my notes. By adding in powerful disruptive elements, such as Cursed Totem or Stranglehold, you have access to a strategy that plays around most of the common offenders in the format. Resilience is another issue that can be addressed by playing powerful cards alongside of Jeleva. I'm all ears for ideas!
I feel you're losing a chance to use Jeleva as a great foil to other combo decks. For example she exiles whatever is on top. So imagine say using Erratic Portal or Crystal Shard to return her to hand, to foil their tutoring or sheer away part of their deck. It does cost mana each time, but it could play as a way to ruin their consistency when playing for the long game, especially if doing nothing else that turn. As always Teferi would help and anything that let you Jeleva instant speed.
I also play Weiss Schwarz, Chaos, Vanguard and Wixoss.
Weiss Schwarz Sets
Accel World, Angel Beats, Familiar of Zero, Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, Guilty Crown, Kill La Kill, Robotics;Notes, Sword Art Online.
Chaos Partners
Arpeggio of Blue Steel: Iona, Kirishima, Kongou.
Dangan Ronpa: Asahina, Togami.
Freezing: Vibration: Chiffon, Satelizer.
Vanguard Clans Favoured
Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Genesis, Neonecter, Pale Moon, Shadow Paladins, Tachikaze.
I feel you're losing a chance to use Jeleva as a great foil to other combo decks. For example she exiles whatever is on top. So imagine say using Erratic Portal or Crystal Shard to return her to hand, to foil their tutoring or sheer away part of their deck. It does cost mana each time, but it could play as a way to ruin their consistency when playing for the long game, especially if doing nothing else that turn. As always Teferi would help and anything that let you Jeleva instant speed.
That's definitely a good observation. The first idea I had with her was to use her as a disruption piece (and she still is). I think it's still more important to emphasis her Kaalia-esque ability to do broken things though.
But yes, in general, this decklist should be equipped with much more disruption and anti-disruption. This type of combo deck is much more privy to all sorts of problems, so taking all the proper precautions (looking at Teferi and friends) would be quite important.
1. your lands are ridiculous.
2. tune your list to multiplayer--drop swan song/forbidden orchard.
3. You can slow down, this doesn't have to be a turn 4 win.
a) add the mana severance/charbelcher combo and basics.
b) trinket mage package + expedition map
c) corpse connoisseur + anger/filth
d) -chain of vapor, you're running a creature/permanent dependant combo
e) what do ponder preordain and impulse really do?
I'd also say if your going to make a singleton legacy style commander, you should just add dark confidant, and the zombie muse and phyrexian arena--who cares about the life loss when you're just going to combo out.
1. your lands are ridiculous.
2. tune your list to multiplayer--drop swan song/forbidden orchard.
3. You can slow down, this doesn't have to be a turn 4 win.
a) add the mana severance/charbelcher combo and basics.
b) trinket mage package + expedition map
c) corpse connoisseur + anger/filth
d) -chain of vapor, you're running a creature/permanent dependant combo
e) what do ponder preordain and impulse really do?
I'd also say if your going to make a singleton legacy style commander, you should just add dark confidant, and the zombie muse and phyrexian arena--who cares about the life loss when you're just going to combo out.
Not sure if trolling, but let's give this a shot.
1. My mana base is not ridiculous. I've been running similar mana bases for years without any problems. Some filter lands might get taken out for basics, but that number usually doesn't exceed 1 or 2. If Blood Moon/B2B is your main concern, I've never seen running a handful of basics save anyone, and running more than a handful means you're going to get tied up in mana symbols. Also, this mana base is set up to run Tainted Pact.
2. Forbidden Orchard and Swan Song ARE multiplayer cards. You can't afford the life loss in 1v1.
3. I can, but I'd have to change more than what you've mentioned. Like I said in the OP, the version of the deck I posted is pure combo. It's not optimal, but I like some of your suggestions below.
a) Why?
b) Trinket Mage is a good call, but that goes along with changing the deck into more of a powerplay deck instead of a pure combo deck, which I am going to do.
c) Anger is already in the deck, Jeleva flies and I only need to attack one open player, so Filth is unnecessary. I run Entomb, the better version of a 5CMC Entomb.
d) I think I know not to CoV when I have things to lose. It can also be used to ramp.
e) If you've ever played a hyper-competitive combo deck, you will see the value in sculpting cantrips. But that's a lengthy discussion for another place and time.
And I usually do play with Bob, but I didn't run him in this list because I didn't care as much about raw card advantage. All things aside, I'm going to convert this into a ramp/powerplay deck that has an ETI win built in. Seems more stable that way.
EDIT:
I've modified the list to be a bit more splashy and have a few backup plans in case Jevela exiles Inner Fire or Comet Storm.
1. My mana base is not ridiculous. I've been running similar mana bases for years without any problems. Some filter lands might get taken out for basics, but that number usually doesn't exceed 1 or 2. If Blood Moon/B2B is your main concern, I've never seen running a handful of basics save anyone, and running more than a handful means you're going to get tied up in mana symbols. Also, this mana base is set up to run Tainted Pact.
2. Forbidden Orchard and Swan Song ARE multiplayer cards. You can't afford the life loss in 1v1.
3. I can, but I'd have to change more than what you've mentioned. Like I said in the OP, the version of the deck I posted is pure combo. It's not optimal, but I like some of your suggestions below.
a) Why?
b) Trinket Mage is a good call, but that goes along with changing the deck into more of a powerplay deck instead of a pure combo deck, which I am going to do.
c) Anger is already in the deck, Jeleva flies and I only need to attack one open player, so Filth is unnecessary. I run Entomb, the better version of a 5CMC Entomb.
d) I think I know not to CoV when I have things to lose. It can also be used to ramp.
e) If you've ever played a hyper-competitive combo deck, you will see the value in sculpting cantrips. But that's a lengthy discussion for another place and time.
And I usually do play with Bob, but I didn't run him in this list because I didn't care as much about raw card advantage. All things aside, I'm going to convert this into a ramp/powerplay deck that has an ETI win built in. Seems more stable that way.
EDIT:
I've modified the list to be a bit more splashy and have a few backup plans in case Jevela exiles Inner Fire or Comet Storm.
not trolling, but definitely condescending (I think it has to do with me posting from work) sorry.
1. I see the artifact basics, but no actual basics--snap judgement. The artifacts lands open you up to collateral much more than basics. I think that I wouldn't put in the mox opal thinking you'll hit metalcraft more times than you'd hit a dead draw--test it. Your list actually has odd similarity to my Oona list, if you think you'll hit critical mass of artifacts I recommend tezz2.0--the +1 is great, ignore the rest. I do see a mana base optimized for tainted pact (which I also run in my Oona), but I also don't see the card...idk.
2. What decks in your meta win via an instant that annul wouldn't do it? I actually recommend remand--you can bounce a spell of your own on the stack that is being countered+cantrip), and let someone else at the table take care of the thing that must be countered or at least timewalk them.
3. I only say you can slow down because the slower you go the less glass cannon you are and the more cards you draw--in my meta I'd slow down because I'm 50/50 the only blue player at the table. I like to take the time to enjoy other peoples decks being played out, and I don't like to apologize for combo winning too early. I also think that when you run up against a control deck, or if your meta isn't quite like mine--you need to protect your combo from up to three different players who all might have answers. The stuff that tells you its safe that's effective against multiple opponents isn't going to help you win the game as much as what you've got listed. seer's vision
a) this combo is stupid, but you can play it easily enough without your commander and its only two easily tutor-able cards. Mindcrank and duskmantle guildmage is another common one that's nice as a backup. sickening dreams +-tamiyo, the moon sage might add redundancy to what you've already got going on
b) I understand making this build as pure combo, but trinketing a meek stone or the right spellbomb while turning on the previously mentioned metalcraft might be kinda dope.
c)entomb is sweeter than my zombie suggestion but for the sake of consistency lets have three entombs (flashback included). This way you can have your library exiled or your entomb countered. (no one entombs bull****)
d)e), Go ANT. I totally get cantrip sculpting, as your build stands I'd be afraid of drawing your combo and not being able to brainstorm or timetwister it away.
I'm into it. I myself plan on a more cute-stuff value/control build with cascade and discard for alt mana cost spells playing a part. I
take a peek at portent, misinformation and clutch of the undercity--One last observation is that you do nothing to potentially exile something sweet from anyone elses deck. While I think game winning combos stacked into our deck are sweet and will be a lot more consistent--there is always more to explore.
I'm also going to try running gamble, and maybe a wish tutor (depending on how much I want to condense my combo) or mill myself out with tainted pact. Imperial seal and grim tutor are a little pricey and I only build in paper.
My version isn't as tuned due to budget + wanting to have a lower powered deck to run out. I should honestly be running Thrax tbh, but Jeleva is just too Spike to pass up
Maybe think about running some of the massive board wipes like Jokulhaups. They can be insane in heavy control as long as they aren't removing hands.
not trolling, but definitely condescending (I think it has to do with me posting from work) sorry.
1. I see the artifact basics, but no actual basics--snap judgement. The artifacts lands open you up to collateral much more than basics. I think that I wouldn't put in the mox opal thinking you'll hit metalcraft more times than you'd hit a dead draw--test it. Your list actually has odd similarity to my Oona list, if you think you'll hit critical mass of artifacts I recommend tezz2.0--the +1 is great, ignore the rest. I do see a mana base optimized for tainted pact (which I also run in my Oona), but I also don't see the card...idk.
2. What decks in your meta win via an instant that annul wouldn't do it? I actually recommend remand--you can bounce a spell of your own on the stack that is being countered+cantrip), and let someone else at the table take care of the thing that must be countered or at least timewalk them.
3. I only say you can slow down because the slower you go the less glass cannon you are and the more cards you draw--in my meta I'd slow down because I'm 50/50 the only blue player at the table. I like to take the time to enjoy other peoples decks being played out, and I don't like to apologize for combo winning too early. I also think that when you run up against a control deck, or if your meta isn't quite like mine--you need to protect your combo from up to three different players who all might have answers. The stuff that tells you its safe that's effective against multiple opponents isn't going to help you win the game as much as what you've got listed. seer's vision
a) this combo is stupid, but you can play it easily enough without your commander and its only two easily tutor-able cards. Mindcrank and duskmantle guildmage is another common one that's nice as a backup. sickening dreams +-tamiyo, the moon sage might add redundancy to what you've already got going on
b) I understand making this build as pure combo, but trinketing a meek stone or the right spellbomb while turning on the previously mentioned metalcraft might be kinda dope.
c)entomb is sweeter than my zombie suggestion but for the sake of consistency lets have three entombs (flashback included). This way you can have your library exiled or your entomb countered. (no one entombs bull****)
d)e), Go ANT. I totally get cantrip sculpting, as your build stands I'd be afraid of drawing your combo and not being able to brainstorm or timetwister it away.
I'm into it. I myself plan on a more cute-stuff value/control build with cascade and discard for alt mana cost spells playing a part. I
take a peek at portent, misinformation and clutch of the undercity--One last observation is that you do nothing to potentially exile something sweet from anyone elses deck. While I think game winning combos stacked into our deck are sweet and will be a lot more consistent--there is always more to explore.
No worries.
Just a few notes on some of the things mentioned:
1. Tezz 2.0 doesn't do much for me. I don't care to pay 4 mana to try and draw a few artifacts, that doesn't appeal to me or my game plan at all.
2. I've modified my list to be more splashy, since I realized that Jeleva doesn't "remember" her exiled cards upon subsequent re-casts. If my combo gets exiled, whatever. I've added some compact, redundant pieces, but outside of those, I'm not going out of my way to try and make ETI the sole focus of the deck.
3. Yes there is plenty to explore. I'm thinking about adding the 5CMC time walks to the deck (yes, all three of them). Not sure how good they'll be, but I think they fit the game plan decently.
I'm also going to try running gamble, and maybe a wish tutor (depending on how much I want to condense my combo) or mill myself out with tainted pact. Imperial seal and grim tutor are a little pricey and I only build in paper.
Yep. This deck is not cheap to build, and I'm not placing any budgets on it either. I'm looking to turn it into the most competitive Jeleva list possible, and with that comes expensive cards.
My version isn't as tuned due to budget + wanting to have a lower powered deck to run out. I should honestly be running Thrax tbh, but Jeleva is just too Spike to pass up
Maybe think about running some of the massive board wipes like Jokulhaups. They can be insane in heavy control as long as they aren't removing hands.
I did add in Sunder and Boom/Bust, as they are basically on-color Armageddons. My question is basically what executing one of these spells does for you. If you cast an Armageddon off of a greaved Jevela, then you'll probably win the game. If you cast a blow-up-the-world card and don't have a followup, what's the point? How will you break parity?
Sometimes, Jevela may exile your win conditions. This deck has been set up with several redundant slots. There are many possibilities that involve different sets of exiled cards, but the only combination that means you cannot win off ETI is: Laboratory Maniac, Comet Storm, and Exsanguinate all exiled. If that ever happens, you're going to have to rely on Jeleva beats to win you the game.
"The distance between genius and insanity... Is measured only by success."
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
besides jevela and a combo are there any good creature wins that you think synergize?
Yea, I would consider playing Kiki-Mite, though I steer away from it because Jeleva does run better off instants/sorceries. If there are any amazing creatures you can think of, please let me know. Though I think the only ones I would really consider are compliments to the game plan, not pure win conditions, like Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
I want to consider Seize the Day, but I always felt like extra attack steps were slightly gimmicky. It might be a path worth exploring - I'll see after I give this deck a spin.
Yea, I would consider playing Kiki-Mite, though I steer away from it because Jeleva does run better off instants/sorceries. If there are any amazing creatures you can think of, please let me know. Though I think the only ones I would really consider are compliments to the game plan, not pure win conditions, like Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
I want to consider Seize the Day, but I always felt like extra attack steps were slightly gimmicky. It might be a path worth exploring - I'll see after I give this deck a spin.
Tefiri is cool, but is basically stax because you wont be comboing out on anyone elses turn reliant on the attack trigger--though he is nearly a u-stable either way and you cant go wrong.
I also will be trying out seize the day, even though it doesn't work if Jeleva exiles it--the flashback is what is so appealing there to me. I could see liking it if you exile good stuff in spades. I don't think when jeleva exiles good stuff you can expect her to be around long at all, so you may want to extra turn/extra attack.
Rule or Dreams would likely have to be dealt with via the typical blue means... EOT bounce the offender, proceed to go off. Capsize, Echoing Truth, or even standbys like Boomerang, etc.
Could this deck borrow from Legacy Mono-U Show and Tell? Ideally they stick an Omniscience, cast ETI, put an eldrazi or another ridiculously costed card back on top and then proceed to end the game by repeatedly casting Release the Ants. Sure, it's a bit cutesy, but Omni and ETI are already viable in this style of deck, could a 1x "oops i win" slot be viable?
@sims totally viable--the problem is that besides all the reasons your combo might not go off--you may just exile part of it with your commander and lose it all forever, so you need to be a little more resilient.
Updated the OP with new decklist. Playtested the deck a few times and came to some revelations.
1. Jeleva is awesome. You don't always hit with her, but I did manage to screw some people over several times. The table gets weirded out, cause they don't want her to attack, but they can't keep killing her. I love putting that kind of stress on the table
2. Haste enablers are nice but not required. If I was playing a blitz combo version of the deck, sure, I would run almost all of them (including Need for Speed), but in this version I'm content just casting her and seeing what happens. I'm not as combo-focused as I once was with this list. Here's a breakdown of some of the haste enablers:
Tempting but bad in the wrong list
--- Entomb + Anger: Entomb is a dead card outside of Anger. Anger sucks when it is drawn in hand. Both dead cards by themselves Mass Hysteria: enabling opponents for free is too painful (see below) Ashling's Prerogative: great if Arcum Daggson and Sisay weren't some competitive commanders I expect to face Need for Speed: sacrifices a land, no-no
Playable, testing and meta required
--- Clout of the Dominus: requires +1 mana, shroud Mark of Fury: requires +1 mana, re-usable Ring of Valkas: requires +1 mana, re-usable permanent Racecourse Fury: requires +1 mana, re-usable land-based permanent
3. More sorceries. I need to add in another 2-3 sorceries, and they'll most likely be 5 CMC time magic. Time magic, unfortunately, is still probably the best thing that you could have in your hand after playing Jeleva. I'm not entirely sure I want to run too many, cause it can get clunky (ie Jeleva misses on the first cast, that time magic isn't going to help you all that much until you can reset Jeleva), but the three I have now are solid. Will consider running a few more power plays and answers as well.
4. Going to add in Army of the Damned as a backup plan. I didn't ever accidentally exile my combo pieces, but I can definitely see it happening on the third+ cast of Jeleva. Army gives me something to do with with Time Stretch. There actually aren't many win conditions like these.
5. Not a fan of extra combat. World at War is the best one, but it's situational and not always great. Tried it out and was not all that impressed.
Gonna playtest this deck more. It feels like it needs to be massaged, but getting close.
Updated the OP with new decklist. Playtested the deck a few times and came to some revelations.
1. Jeleva is awesome. You don't always hit with her, but I did manage to screw some people over several times. The table gets weirded out, cause they don't want her to attack, but they can't keep killing her. I love putting that kind of stress on the table
2. Haste enablers are nice but not required. If I was playing a blitz combo version of the deck, sure, I would run almost all of them (including Need for Speed), but in this version I'm content just casting her and seeing what happens. I'm not as combo-focused as I once was with this list. Here's a breakdown of some of the haste enablers:
Tempting but bad in the wrong list
--- Entomb + Anger: Entomb is a dead card outside of Anger. Anger sucks when it is drawn in hand. Both dead cards by themselves Mass Hysteria: enabling opponents for free is too painful (see below) Ashling's Prerogative: great if Arcum Daggson and Sisay weren't some competitive commanders I expect to face Need for Speed: sacrifices a land, no-no
Playable, testing and meta required
--- Clout of the Dominus: requires +1 mana, shroud Mark of Fury: requires +1 mana, re-usable Ring of Valkas: requires +1 mana, re-usable permanent Racecourse Fury: requires +1 mana, re-usable land-based permanent
3. More sorceries. I need to add in another 2-3 sorceries, and they'll most likely be 5 CMC time magic. Time magic, unfortunately, is still probably the best thing that you could have in your hand after playing Jeleva. I'm not entirely sure I want to run too many, cause it can get clunky (ie Jeleva misses on the first cast, that time magic isn't going to help you all that much until you can reset Jeleva), but the three I have now are solid. Will consider running a few more power plays and answers as well.
4. Going to add in Army of the Damned as a backup plan. I didn't ever accidentally exile my combo pieces, but I can definitely see it happening on the third+ cast of Jeleva. Army gives me something to do with with Time Stretch. There actually aren't many win conditions like these.
5. Not a fan of extra combat. World at War is the best one, but it's situational and not always great. Tried it out and was not all that impressed.
Gonna playtest this deck more. It feels like it needs to be massaged, but getting close.
So I've goldfished a ton with my build and found the following, to sort of expand on what you've just said.
1. exile mill in singleton is a measureably sweet effect that I picked up from running Oona. As long as you don't get land wiped, you can always recast her again. I have exiled and lost spells I'd rather have kept, so redundancy can protect you from this symmetrical effect.
2. I unfortunately bought all my pieces before coming to the conclusion that the deck doesn't need to have haste to be effective unless you don't run her with a way to bounce/sac/protect her. seems like the split in which way to gel is either haste/combo or protect/grixis control --I favor the grind, so I actually dropped hall of the bandit lord so I could still get her out turn 4 with rocks, I didn't like the lack of color mana with hall--and try to keep my land count down and spell count up.
I'll post my list later and then I can talk more about definitive and not, but entomb targets anger obviously, but also filth to great effect. I run corpse connoisseur for now too, that way I can fight through multiple graveyard clearing effects--if one sticks I'd be happy with what I can get away with. I also run faithless looting to dump bombs to spelltwine or whatever into the graveyard, so pitching whatever I want should be doable.
I'm also not afraid of conditional cards if I think it usually will work out in my favor, ie. filth. I am also interested in ashlings prerogative--hadn't seen it before--while you name two commanders I wouldn't want to see either, its pretty neat and cheap and may be brutal in the right game.
I run ring of red and blue, with the greaves instead of swiftfoot (which could change), as well as mark of fury.
right now I have a few win cons--excluding the omni-tell dreamhalls combo. I think that would be for the 'haste' flavor of deck which I'm realizing im not going for.
extra combats only seem good if you exile multiple stuff that would win you the game +the combat cards. extra turns would let you sac+haste cast again and rechoose cards. IDK which is better, I think i'll experiment with both after I do neither and see where my power level is just going for cascades and value out of the control shell.
So I've goldfished a ton with my build and found the following, to sort of expand on what you've just said.
1. exile mill in singleton is a measureably sweet effect that I picked up from running Oona. As long as you don't get land wiped, you can always recast her again. I have exiled and lost spells I'd rather have kept, so redundancy can protect you from this symmetrical effect.
2. I unfortunately bought all my pieces before coming to the conclusion that the deck doesn't need to have haste to be effective unless you don't run her with a way to bounce/sac/protect her. seems like the split in which way to gel is either haste/combo or protect/grixis control --I favor the grind, so I actually dropped hall of the bandit lord so I could still get her out turn 4 with rocks, I didn't like the lack of color mana with hall--and try to keep my land count down and spell count up.
I'll post my list later and then I can talk more about definitive and not, but entomb targets anger obviously, but also filth to great effect. I run corpse connoisseur for now too, that way I can fight through multiple graveyard clearing effects--if one sticks I'd be happy with what I can get away with. I also run faithless looting to dump bombs to spelltwine or whatever into the graveyard, so pitching whatever I want should be doable.
I'm also not afraid of conditional cards if I think it usually will work out in my favor, ie. filth. I am also interested in ashlings prerogative--hadn't seen it before--while you name two commanders I wouldn't want to see either, its pretty neat and cheap and may be brutal in the right game.
I run ring of red and blue, with the greaves instead of swiftfoot (which could change), as well as mark of fury.
right now I have a few win cons--excluding the omni-tell dreamhalls combo. I think that would be for the 'haste' flavor of deck which I'm realizing im not going for.
extra combats only seem good if you exile multiple stuff that would win you the game +the combat cards. extra turns would let you sac+haste cast again and rechoose cards. IDK which is better, I think i'll experiment with both after I do neither and see where my power level is just going for cascades and value out of the control shell.
@Hall of the Bandit Lord - I still think this should be in the deck, only because it doesn't require additional mana to enable haste (which was my problem with Swiftfoot Boots. I haven't run into it, and I can see it being awkward with mana rocks, but I'll test it before I pass final judgment.
@Entomb - from how you're describing it, you're running sub-optimal cards to make Entomb playable, which is just not efficient imo. Why would you play Filth when your general already has built-in evasion? Why are you playing GY-dumping cards when you only have, realistically, a handful of cards that allow you to cast spells from the GY? Entomb is not being maximized here, and it sticks out like a sore thumb to me. If you're going for blitz combo, then sure, the opportunity cost of Entomb is much better, but it's not that great in the splashy version.
@Ashling's Prerogative - I think I might end up running it anyways, over Swiftfoot Boots anyways. It fits well on the curve, but I probably just won't cast it against the specified generals.
I'm aiming for "just going for cascades" splashy deck with the added benefit of being able to win instantly with Enter the Infinite. It makes the deck a lot more powerful, resilient, and less boring overall than just playing haste enablers and top-of-deck tutors. The one issue that I'm having is finding strong sorcery-based win conditions. Granted, I can cast my opponents' spells, it's usually just more removal or more tutors. Bribery, Blatant Thievery, and Army of the Damned are the only TRUE non-combo game enders. I might end up running more of these types of cards, except there really aren't any more :/
The question then begins: how do we approach this deck? Do we run a ton of haste enablers? What are the best top-of-deck tutors? What are the risks? Once opponents understand what the deck is capable of, how are we going to cope with it?
Hopefully you guys can help me out here!
//Combo Pieces
1 Enter the Infinite
1 Dream Halls
1 Laboratory Maniac
//Big Plays
1 Bribery
1 Spelltwine
1 Boom // Bust
1 Knowledge Exploitation
1 Blatant Thievery
1 Army of the Damned
1 Temporal Mastery
1 Beacon of Tomorrows
1 Time Stretch
//Power Cards
1 Strionic Resonator
1 Stranglehold
//Top of Deck Tutors
1 Imperial Seal
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Personal Tutor
1 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Long-Term Plans
1 Insidious Dreams
//Tutors
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Fabricate
1 Grim Tutor
//Haste Enablers
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Swiftfoot Boots
1 Fervor
1 Hammer of Purphoros
//Card Quality
1 Mystic Remora
1 Brainstorm
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Scroll Rack
1 Timetwister
1 Time Spiral
1 Recurring Insight
1 Pact of Negation
1 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
1 Mana Drain
//Removal
1 Pongify
1 Rapid Hybridization
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Vandalblast
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Chaos Warp
1 Capsize
1 Damnation
1 Decree of Pain
1 All Is Dust
//Accleration
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Opal
1 Chrome Mox
1 Dark Ritual
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Talisman of Dominance
1 Talisman of Indulgence
1 Fellwar Stone
1 Izzet Signet
1 Dimir Signet
1 Rakdos Signet
1 Prismatic Lens
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
//Lands
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Command Tower
1 Exotic Orchard
1 Reflecting Pool
1 City of Brass
1 Forbidden Orchard
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Watery Grave
1 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Graven Cairns
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Underground River
1 Shivan Reef
1 Sulfurous Springs
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Arid Mesa
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Great Furnace
1 Vault of Whispers
Gameplan (Updated 10.31.13)
1a. Artifact ramp.
1b. Find and cast a haste enabler.
2. Cast a top-of-deck tutor for ETI.
3. Cast Jeleva and attack.
4. Play ETI from exile, drawing your whole deck.
5a. Use your free mana sources to play Laboratory Maniac and then cast Brainstorm to win the game. Don't forget about Chain of Vapor to generate the extra mana.
5b. If Maniac is exiled, the backup is to play Dream Halls and cast Beacon of Tomorrows, letting it be your last card infinitely. Or put the last card from your hand as Beacon, and manually cast another piece of time magic. Requires 8 permanent mana.
Sometimes, Jevela may exile your win conditions. This deck has been set up with several power plays. There are many possibilities that involve different sets of exiled cards, but the only combination that means you cannot win off ETI is: Laboratory Maniac and Beacon of Tomorrows both permanently exiled. If that ever happens, you're going to have to rely on Jeleva triggers to win you the game.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
And considering the fact that you'll be wanting to swing safely (and connect), I'd think having at least a few (more) Voltron elements would be good. (You can ditch the lame mass haste cards for more stuff like Greaves and Swiftfoot Boots.)
You should also be running more than 1 way to actually close out the game, especially since Jelly could theoretically exile all your (current) pieces.
Cards I'd add, just off the top of my head: Bubbling Muck, Boots, Exsanguinate.
I'm still not sold on the idea of this deck, but I'll gladly wish you luck and give you props for trying.
I'm officially proposing we retire the word "insane" from the MtG vocabulary.
"The best way to be different is to be better" - Gene Muir
Cubes:
Modern Banlist Cube
Monocolor Budget Cube
Fair enough.
I don't see this deck being any slower than say, a Sharuum deck,which was the baseline for my "competitive deck" criteria. The # of combo pieces is technically less than Sharuum requires. It runs about the same amount of tutors and accelerants. It might not be as flexible, yes, but I detail that in my notes. By adding in powerful disruptive elements, such as Cursed Totem or Stranglehold, you have access to a strategy that plays around most of the common offenders in the format. Resilience is another issue that can be addressed by playing powerful cards alongside of Jeleva. I'm all ears for ideas!
Note also that Jeleva does NOT have to connect.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Main Decks
Diaochan, Iroas, God of Victory, Kaalia, Marton, Ulasht, Volrath,
Kaervek, Prossh, Titania
Amusing or Themed
Progenitus
Pauper Guildmages
Azorius Boros Dimir Golgari Gruul Izzet Korozda
Orzhov Rakdos Rix Maadi Selesyna Simic Skarrg Zameck
I also play Weiss Schwarz, Chaos, Vanguard and Wixoss.
Accel World, Angel Beats, Familiar of Zero, Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, Guilty Crown, Kill La Kill, Robotics;Notes, Sword Art Online.
Chaos Partners
Arpeggio of Blue Steel: Iona, Kirishima, Kongou.
Dangan Ronpa: Asahina, Togami.
Freezing: Vibration: Chiffon, Satelizer.
Vanguard Clans Favoured
Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Genesis, Neonecter, Pale Moon, Shadow Paladins, Tachikaze.
Wixoss - Just trial decks for now!
That's definitely a good observation. The first idea I had with her was to use her as a disruption piece (and she still is). I think it's still more important to emphasis her Kaalia-esque ability to do broken things though.
But yes, in general, this decklist should be equipped with much more disruption and anti-disruption. This type of combo deck is much more privy to all sorts of problems, so taking all the proper precautions (looking at Teferi and friends) would be quite important.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
2. tune your list to multiplayer--drop swan song/forbidden orchard.
3. You can slow down, this doesn't have to be a turn 4 win.
a) add the mana severance/charbelcher combo and basics.
b) trinket mage package + expedition map
c) corpse connoisseur + anger/filth
d) -chain of vapor, you're running a creature/permanent dependant combo
e) what do ponder preordain and impulse really do?
Not sure if trolling, but let's give this a shot.
1. My mana base is not ridiculous. I've been running similar mana bases for years without any problems. Some filter lands might get taken out for basics, but that number usually doesn't exceed 1 or 2. If Blood Moon/B2B is your main concern, I've never seen running a handful of basics save anyone, and running more than a handful means you're going to get tied up in mana symbols. Also, this mana base is set up to run Tainted Pact.
2. Forbidden Orchard and Swan Song ARE multiplayer cards. You can't afford the life loss in 1v1.
3. I can, but I'd have to change more than what you've mentioned. Like I said in the OP, the version of the deck I posted is pure combo. It's not optimal, but I like some of your suggestions below.
a) Why?
b) Trinket Mage is a good call, but that goes along with changing the deck into more of a powerplay deck instead of a pure combo deck, which I am going to do.
c) Anger is already in the deck, Jeleva flies and I only need to attack one open player, so Filth is unnecessary. I run Entomb, the better version of a 5CMC Entomb.
d) I think I know not to CoV when I have things to lose. It can also be used to ramp.
e) If you've ever played a hyper-competitive combo deck, you will see the value in sculpting cantrips. But that's a lengthy discussion for another place and time.
And I usually do play with Bob, but I didn't run him in this list because I didn't care as much about raw card advantage. All things aside, I'm going to convert this into a ramp/powerplay deck that has an ETI win built in. Seems more stable that way.
EDIT:
I've modified the list to be a bit more splashy and have a few backup plans in case Jevela exiles Inner Fire or Comet Storm.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
not trolling, but definitely condescending (I think it has to do with me posting from work) sorry.
1. I see the artifact basics, but no actual basics--snap judgement. The artifacts lands open you up to collateral much more than basics. I think that I wouldn't put in the mox opal thinking you'll hit metalcraft more times than you'd hit a dead draw--test it. Your list actually has odd similarity to my Oona list, if you think you'll hit critical mass of artifacts I recommend tezz2.0--the +1 is great, ignore the rest. I do see a mana base optimized for tainted pact (which I also run in my Oona), but I also don't see the card...idk.
2. What decks in your meta win via an instant that annul wouldn't do it? I actually recommend remand--you can bounce a spell of your own on the stack that is being countered+cantrip), and let someone else at the table take care of the thing that must be countered or at least timewalk them.
3. I only say you can slow down because the slower you go the less glass cannon you are and the more cards you draw--in my meta I'd slow down because I'm 50/50 the only blue player at the table. I like to take the time to enjoy other peoples decks being played out, and I don't like to apologize for combo winning too early. I also think that when you run up against a control deck, or if your meta isn't quite like mine--you need to protect your combo from up to three different players who all might have answers. The stuff that tells you its safe that's effective against multiple opponents isn't going to help you win the game as much as what you've got listed. seer's vision
a) this combo is stupid, but you can play it easily enough without your commander and its only two easily tutor-able cards. Mindcrank and duskmantle guildmage is another common one that's nice as a backup. sickening dreams +-tamiyo, the moon sage might add redundancy to what you've already got going on
b) I understand making this build as pure combo, but trinketing a meek stone or the right spellbomb while turning on the previously mentioned metalcraft might be kinda dope.
c)entomb is sweeter than my zombie suggestion but for the sake of consistency lets have three entombs (flashback included). This way you can have your library exiled or your entomb countered. (no one entombs bull****)
d)e), Go ANT. I totally get cantrip sculpting, as your build stands I'd be afraid of drawing your combo and not being able to brainstorm or timetwister it away.
I'm into it. I myself plan on a more cute-stuff value/control build with cascade and discard for alt mana cost spells playing a part. I
take a peek at portent, misinformation and clutch of the undercity--One last observation is that you do nothing to potentially exile something sweet from anyone elses deck. While I think game winning combos stacked into our deck are sweet and will be a lot more consistent--there is always more to explore.
Maybe think about running some of the massive board wipes like Jokulhaups. They can be insane in heavy control as long as they aren't removing hands.
No worries.
Just a few notes on some of the things mentioned:
1. Tezz 2.0 doesn't do much for me. I don't care to pay 4 mana to try and draw a few artifacts, that doesn't appeal to me or my game plan at all.
2. I've modified my list to be more splashy, since I realized that Jeleva doesn't "remember" her exiled cards upon subsequent re-casts. If my combo gets exiled, whatever. I've added some compact, redundant pieces, but outside of those, I'm not going out of my way to try and make ETI the sole focus of the deck.
3. Yes there is plenty to explore. I'm thinking about adding the 5CMC time walks to the deck (yes, all three of them). Not sure how good they'll be, but I think they fit the game plan decently.
Yep. This deck is not cheap to build, and I'm not placing any budgets on it either. I'm looking to turn it into the most competitive Jeleva list possible, and with that comes expensive cards.
I did add in Sunder and Boom/Bust, as they are basically on-color Armageddons. My question is basically what executing one of these spells does for you. If you cast an Armageddon off of a greaved Jevela, then you'll probably win the game. If you cast a blow-up-the-world card and don't have a followup, what's the point? How will you break parity?
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Had you considered extra attack step cards to avoid that problem? Aggravated Assault, Relentless Assault, Hellkite Charger, etc.
If you need to store mana, Gemstone Array sucks, but half your mana is better than none at all.
Karona, Warden of AlcatrazWUBRG
The EPIC EDHWUBRG
Sun Quan Aggro1U
Animar GoodstuffRUG
Horobi MBCB
Medomai NerfWU
Saffi EriksdotterGW
Zur (CF)WUB
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
Yea, I would consider playing Kiki-Mite, though I steer away from it because Jeleva does run better off instants/sorceries. If there are any amazing creatures you can think of, please let me know. Though I think the only ones I would really consider are compliments to the game plan, not pure win conditions, like Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
I want to consider Seize the Day, but I always felt like extra attack steps were slightly gimmicky. It might be a path worth exploring - I'll see after I give this deck a spin.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
[c]
I recommended Kaho, Minamo historian, which would work for your build, nightscape familiar, snapcaster mage, and maybe something like galvanoth.
I have my buy it now trigger finger on the following:
snapcaster mage
djinn of wishes
sphinx ambassador
charmbreaker devils
galvanoth
Kaho, Minamo Historian
diplomatic escort
hydromorph gull
corpse connaisseur
anger
filth
olivia voldaren
defiler of souls
nightscape familiar
Tefiri is cool, but is basically stax because you wont be comboing out on anyone elses turn reliant on the attack trigger--though he is nearly a u-stable either way and you cant go wrong.
I also will be trying out seize the day, even though it doesn't work if Jeleva exiles it--the flashback is what is so appealing there to me. I could see liking it if you exile good stuff in spades. I don't think when jeleva exiles good stuff you can expect her to be around long at all, so you may want to extra turn/extra attack.
WUBRG Reaper King - Elf Tribal WUBRG | Tribal Fun
WRG Gishath, Sun's Avatar - Dinosaur Tribal WRG | Rawr!!!
WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - Enchantress Tactics WUG | Enchantments Focused
GBG The Gitrog Monster - Land Shenanigans GBG | Lands/Mill Focused
WBW Kambal, Consul of Life Allocation Matters WBW | Life Gain/Loss focused
UBR Kess, Dissident Mage of the Lotus UBR | Spellslinger
BGB Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons - Counters & Tokens BGB | -1/-1 counters focused
Could this deck borrow from Legacy Mono-U Show and Tell? Ideally they stick an Omniscience, cast ETI, put an eldrazi or another ridiculously costed card back on top and then proceed to end the game by repeatedly casting Release the Ants. Sure, it's a bit cutesy, but Omni and ETI are already viable in this style of deck, could a 1x "oops i win" slot be viable?
I think its a great combo, that being said.
1. Jeleva is awesome. You don't always hit with her, but I did manage to screw some people over several times. The table gets weirded out, cause they don't want her to attack, but they can't keep killing her. I love putting that kind of stress on the table
2. Haste enablers are nice but not required. If I was playing a blitz combo version of the deck, sure, I would run almost all of them (including Need for Speed), but in this version I'm content just casting her and seeing what happens. I'm not as combo-focused as I once was with this list. Here's a breakdown of some of the haste enablers:
Definitive
---
Tempting but bad in the wrong list
---
Entomb + Anger: Entomb is a dead card outside of Anger. Anger sucks when it is drawn in hand. Both dead cards by themselves
Mass Hysteria: enabling opponents for free is too painful (see below)
Ashling's Prerogative: great if Arcum Daggson and Sisay weren't some competitive commanders I expect to face
Need for Speed: sacrifices a land, no-no
Playable, testing and meta required
---
Clout of the Dominus: requires +1 mana, shroud
Mark of Fury: requires +1 mana, re-usable
Ring of Valkas: requires +1 mana, re-usable permanent
Racecourse Fury: requires +1 mana, re-usable land-based permanent
3. More sorceries. I need to add in another 2-3 sorceries, and they'll most likely be 5 CMC time magic. Time magic, unfortunately, is still probably the best thing that you could have in your hand after playing Jeleva. I'm not entirely sure I want to run too many, cause it can get clunky (ie Jeleva misses on the first cast, that time magic isn't going to help you all that much until you can reset Jeleva), but the three I have now are solid. Will consider running a few more power plays and answers as well.
4. Going to add in Army of the Damned as a backup plan. I didn't ever accidentally exile my combo pieces, but I can definitely see it happening on the third+ cast of Jeleva. Army gives me something to do with with Time Stretch. There actually aren't many win conditions like these.
5. Not a fan of extra combat. World at War is the best one, but it's situational and not always great. Tried it out and was not all that impressed.
Gonna playtest this deck more. It feels like it needs to be massaged, but getting close.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
So I've goldfished a ton with my build and found the following, to sort of expand on what you've just said.
1. exile mill in singleton is a measureably sweet effect that I picked up from running Oona. As long as you don't get land wiped, you can always recast her again. I have exiled and lost spells I'd rather have kept, so redundancy can protect you from this symmetrical effect.
2. I unfortunately bought all my pieces before coming to the conclusion that the deck doesn't need to have haste to be effective unless you don't run her with a way to bounce/sac/protect her. seems like the split in which way to gel is either haste/combo or protect/grixis control --I favor the grind, so I actually dropped hall of the bandit lord so I could still get her out turn 4 with rocks, I didn't like the lack of color mana with hall--and try to keep my land count down and spell count up.
I'll post my list later and then I can talk more about definitive and not, but entomb targets anger obviously, but also filth to great effect. I run corpse connoisseur for now too, that way I can fight through multiple graveyard clearing effects--if one sticks I'd be happy with what I can get away with. I also run faithless looting to dump bombs to spelltwine or whatever into the graveyard, so pitching whatever I want should be doable.
I'm also not afraid of conditional cards if I think it usually will work out in my favor, ie. filth. I am also interested in ashlings prerogative--hadn't seen it before--while you name two commanders I wouldn't want to see either, its pretty neat and cheap and may be brutal in the right game.
I run ring of red and blue, with the greaves instead of swiftfoot (which could change), as well as mark of fury.
right now I have a few win cons--excluding the omni-tell dreamhalls combo. I think that would be for the 'haste' flavor of deck which I'm realizing im not going for.
extra combats only seem good if you exile multiple stuff that would win you the game +the combat cards. extra turns would let you sac+haste cast again and rechoose cards. IDK which is better, I think i'll experiment with both after I do neither and see where my power level is just going for cascades and value out of the control shell.
@Hall of the Bandit Lord - I still think this should be in the deck, only because it doesn't require additional mana to enable haste (which was my problem with Swiftfoot Boots. I haven't run into it, and I can see it being awkward with mana rocks, but I'll test it before I pass final judgment.
@Entomb - from how you're describing it, you're running sub-optimal cards to make Entomb playable, which is just not efficient imo. Why would you play Filth when your general already has built-in evasion? Why are you playing GY-dumping cards when you only have, realistically, a handful of cards that allow you to cast spells from the GY? Entomb is not being maximized here, and it sticks out like a sore thumb to me. If you're going for blitz combo, then sure, the opportunity cost of Entomb is much better, but it's not that great in the splashy version.
@Ashling's Prerogative - I think I might end up running it anyways, over Swiftfoot Boots anyways. It fits well on the curve, but I probably just won't cast it against the specified generals.
I'm aiming for "just going for cascades" splashy deck with the added benefit of being able to win instantly with Enter the Infinite. It makes the deck a lot more powerful, resilient, and less boring overall than just playing haste enablers and top-of-deck tutors. The one issue that I'm having is finding strong sorcery-based win conditions. Granted, I can cast my opponents' spells, it's usually just more removal or more tutors. Bribery, Blatant Thievery, and Army of the Damned are the only TRUE non-combo game enders. I might end up running more of these types of cards, except there really aren't any more :/
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain