Mana Curve updated counterspell in for swan song until it comes out
Basic Piles
All like cost assume you already played BBB for DD
Cantrip
Gitaxin Probe - this is a interesting cantrip to start a DD pile becuase so many of our piles end with a probe. However it is free which elucidate the initial cost of starting the pile but if you don't tack that cost back on the end you have to sacrifice a gush split this is useful
When using predict for 1UB we can build
Predict > LM > gush>unearth>yawgwin (6)
If we are going off fast enough we can make a pile for U
Gush > Cantrip>LED>Yawgmoths Will> LabMan (5-4 if no land drop)
Note any cantrip such as ponder has the same cost to build with the cantrip being Probe.
Note this pile allows you to use extra mana to cast binned cards or pacts or 0 to defend aginst spot removal however yawgwill getting countered is unprotected. at least you can try and luck pass lab man lol....
No mana? Not good! Even with a loaded SDT you will always need at least 1 mana after DD unless you pass turn!
Ponder and preordain function in a very similar fashion the cost is just in a different part of the equation.
ThoughtScour / Mental note/ Presict in hand
These piles are Gravey!
The number if times I see people in mtgo stop and stare when after what looked like a degenerate opener I intuition for thought scour predict and mental note? Not sure what to do in truth it's doesnt really matter ! For the most part.
1U ( 5 ) no gush LED pile
LM > LED > Probe > yawgwill > Mana Crypt
In the end these 3 are very similar I'm function and are like a nessary ritual type card that changes the cost of your win con
Ideas Unbound IU can also be used in similar fashion as it also hits 3 cards this time you draw them all for UU.
This is actauly also awesome for the fast piles but we can't sneak in our sol ring or mama crypt mana like with predict
At
UU ( 5)
We can build
Lotus Petal LM GUSH> Probe > Mana Crypt
At UUU we can build the same but with Pact of negation for petal like before
Pact LM Gush > Probe Crypt
Without Gush
1UU ( 6) We can squeeze in colorless cost with our gush offline using SDT as probe 2
LED LM PRobe > Yawgwill > SDT
Gush ..... First note gush is awesome ... Now if gush is offline but in your hand with 1 island you can pile the island where you normaly would gush and if you had any back end costs is pays for them tapping reduce the cost of your piles !!
Also if you haven't made your land drop for turn you can subtract a color cost after gush you would normaly pay (unearth/Cabtrip) depending on how your hand looks Or even pays for a spell peirce in hand in a normal pile
If you just have gush you pretty much do a reverse predict or mental note pile in either case we are milling LM grabbingtge same 3-4 cards for 1U or UB piles
As for lands, Ancient Tomb could be nice to get Damia out faster. I also think you need more counterspells. Especially Hinder and Spell Crumple to wreck generals. I think Predict could come out.
The ramp like spells (Nature's Lore, Search for tomorrow, Three Visits etc.) seem out of place with the whole concept of the deck. My vote is for more mana rocks in the realm of 0-1 mana, 2 max which you've done fine picking out all the good ones.
A few thoughts and questions: Dimir Machinations is another tutor for Doomsday.
Recurring Insight is way above curve, and not really something i would say is desirable for this build in particular.
Meditate is a good draw when you're going off, and a lot easier on the mana.
Ranger's Guile and Vines of vastwood are good protection pieces for Lab man, and may prove better in a multiplayer environment than targeted Discard. Otherwise in 1v1 situation I would add in Inquisition of Kozilek to fill out your discard suite as well as Mind Twist.
Timetwister seems really strong here especially in a rock heavy hand where you can lay a few rocks cast timetwister and draw into gas.
When does Demonic Consultation become cast? I can see a few fringe cases, but are you not worried of exiling something of importance?
Tell me how Lotus Bloom works out. I've tried it in combo decks like this (Grixis if you were wondering) and wasn't super impressed with it, but it may work for you.
This should be a good enough start...I'll be following this deck's development
on my phone ill clarify better later. predict is one of the best cantrips to open a DD pile. consultation is not a tutor it's just a combo peice for if you draw it or lab man it's cheaper to tutor the other exile your deck cantrip ftw.
played a game last nite
turn 1 lotus petal S library
turn 2 nothing just use library
turn 3 Grim tutor for DD with non threshold cabal rut in hand and thoughtsour
turn 4 cabal rit 2 untapped use 3 to DD for labman /anything / gush / unearth /probe . turn 4 kill on 5 mans with extra cards in hand
on consultation it's primarily a combo card to exile your deck but if your about to lose you can always gamble with it certain card like yang win you cam just grab LAb man and recast etc the deck pilots like a puzzle duffer t prices fit together based on your hand mana etc. need a slot for mental note almost as good as scour enables 2 mana piles easy.
@ cabal good suggestion don't know how I overlooked meditate ill fix that
the ramp spells are better for gush
that tutor is playable
recurring insight is a draw 10 + is like ad naus here or damia gas to auto win
I don't own time twister I've been thinking about picking one up for awhile
thanks for suggestions see what I end up cutting
the deck should be fast enough to see it in opener enough to get it out for my win turn. bad top deck later for sure
I prefer the information from duress seize but vines etc are good as well as not needing extra mana on win turn
Which ones? I don't like the idea of paying more than 3 or using a tutor that can't hit DoomsDay. I mean transmute like the one mention and perplex are the only ones that come to mind? My main issue is you need a certain combination of cantrips mana etc getting out 2 islands makes this even more easy. At the same time we don't want extra tutors all
The time unless they are the good cheap ones I already have. It's very easy to move through a pile with a specific DD cantrip like predict thoughts out mental note ideas unbound infernal contract but we also be able to go with just SDT or a ponder a brainstorm etc . In addition you can use these cards early to reach for that tutor or get to your mama barrier muliganing properly whatever rules you use is important. But when you open hand a card like necro or recuring insight or ad naususm you can simply power one of those out turn 3-4 and be sitting at mana barrier drawing more than a new hand of cards it's hard not to hit a winning hand if your curve is low enough and you can see the lines. One game I got mindsculpted by some noob on mtgo and knew with my yawg will alone and what was in yard I could lim duhl to my DD ponder it into my hand and use the tap out to the predict in hand to easily go into my pile get my LM milled grab a gush and led gush my led into lab man probe.
Not quite a top if you ever played DD in another format being able to use top too draw into your pile and crack Led is awesome. Sylvan library is like guile but far stronger every card quality I run also cantrips so it can hit my DD pile or in the case of library or bob get me CA on the cheap by turn 1-2 in an opening hand. Morris guile is good but I'm already looking to slot in some cards and I don't rate it above what I play. I mean the deck is already light on removal counters and hand hate . With Damia even all mana is good get grim
Monolith and a cmc 1 ramp like birds flop Damia t3 or tutor DD pass drop her t4 holding a spell peirce even draw 2 extra cards a turn is big tossing in natures claim and chain of vapor cheap counters cheap tutors lets you go from
A bust looking hand to instant win. Honestly if you can cast DD and you can cantrip you should be able to win you might need 1-2 mana ...
Played this a little yesterday feels very fast now that I'm
Piloting it a little better. I tested a few cards didn't draw some of them I really liked telepathy as I can easily auto lose if I
Mis read a players hand the duress thought seize gitaxin probe cards have been awesome early on telepathy saved my ass big time the game I drew it perfect information for me and none for them worth losing a card.
Man played 5 games on mtgo 3 turn 3 wins 2 turn 4. 4 of 5 games i had protection piled gush is so good. i literaly feel like i tutor dark rit /doomsday then just go most games and i typically have a free or 1 mana counter control card the deck feels right in between ad nausam and hermit druid it has druids speed just not quite as resilient slightly less consistent people woundering if im afk when im mystical tutoring on turn 2 then take like 8 minutes to pick gush then just go off trying to get a feel for answers in hand and piling in a way you think you can dodge spot removal on lab man like grabbing a pact right before you go for your win makes goign off with LED very risky imo but worth the risk when you see a tapped out board
Long-Term Plans is a decent tutor, though it's a bit slow (as you have to wait 2 more turns to get the actual card without extra draw) but it's cheap.
I'd still run Demonic Tutor. 4mana is a bit high for your purposes, but it's still another way to get DD by turn 4 if you're having a bad day. You're going for overall density, so you can't be but so picky in my opinion.
I'd drop Damia and use Sygg, River Cutthroat. The reasoning for it is you honestly don't use the green too incredibly much besides ramping, and because Sygg is a 2 drop you can land him earlier as a way to justify running Diabolic Intent, another great tutor.
Long-Term Plans is a decent tutor, though it's a bit slow (as you have to wait 2 more turns to get the actual card without extra draw) but it's cheap.
I'd still run Demonic Tutor. 4mana is a bit high for your purposes, but it's still another way to get DD by turn 4 if you're having a bad day. You're going for overall density, so you can't be but so picky in my opinion.
I'd drop Damia and use Sygg, River Cutthroat. The reasoning for it is you honestly don't use the green too incredibly much besides ramping, and because Sygg is a 2 drop you can land him earlier as a way to justify running Diabolic Intent, another great tutor.
Honestly you could be right about going 2 color ... Not for diabolic intent so much I haven't had any real problem
Getting doomsday by turn 3-4. I do however find it harder to go off with gush offline that would be the only reason to drop green. The cheap ramping spells abd sylvan library are better than getting to run diabolic Intent perhaps I could tweak my mana base a bit. I feel like basic islands are better than alot of my rainbow lands most games I play ... Without Gush sometimes your trying to go off turn 3 and you can't go off without piling a LED yawgwill pile leaving you open to auto loss to force of will .... I like the green honestly and if I get 2 islands out its better ... Opening with birds or Slibrary or even natures lore are perfect turn 1-2 plays so I can tutor turn 2-4 then go off. Sometimes you open hand the DD and i can't always decide between pass the turn pile on T2 or setting up depending on my hand I was pretty tired last mite I miss piled and killed myself more than once from forgetting to pile unearth to being to lazy to relize I can pile my Thoughtseize when I need to discard to led and pact would be useless etc. thank you for input though I might give it a test run as U/B but I Dont think it will be I do think I want to make more changes the recursion seems uneeded those might be carpet of flowers and something else haven't decided i haven't really loved meditate and infernal contract they always seem
Meh. A cantrip gets me better piles with an
Online gush and 6 on turn is more than this deck needs to have and even then your looking at LED piles which are more risky... Those might get swapped but it's goid in finding slots I think I need slightly more mana cantrip control the basics.
Updated op with a curve picture fixed the deck tags so the make sense will work on a "how it works" later testing a couple extra islands instead of sunken ruins and hinterland harbor
1 Damia, Sage of Stone
CMC 0-1 Acceleration
2 Elves of Deep Shadow
3 Mox Diamond
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
5 Mana Crypt
6 Lotus Petal
7 Sol Ring
8 Carpet of Flowers
9 Deathrite Shaman
10 Birds of Paradise
11 Dark Ritual
12 Mana Vault
13 Search For Tommorow
14 Rain of Filth
15 Chrome mox
CMC 2 Acceleration
16 Farseek
17 Natures Lore
18 Three Visists
19 Cabal Ritual
Cantrips
20 Ponder
21 Brainstorm
22 Serum Visions
23 Preordain
24 Sensei's Divining Top
25 Impulse
26 Night's Whisper
28 Mental Note
29 Thoughtscour
30 Gush
31 Predict
32 Ideas Unbound
33 Street Wraith
Repeatable draw
34 Dark Confidant
35 Sylvan Library
Hand Refills / over draw
36 Time Twister
37 Time Spiral
38 Ad Nausuam
Combo Protection / anti Disruption
39 Counterspell
40 Pact of Negation
41 Duress
42 Inquisition of Kozilek
43 Thoughtseize
44 Chain of Vapor
45 Dispel
46 Telepathy
47 Nature's Claim
48 Swan Song
49 Mana Drain
50 Force of Will
51 Spell Perice
tutors
52 Vampiric Tutor
53 Imperial Seal
54 Personal Tutor
55 Mystical Tutor
56 Demonic tutor
57 Merchant Scroll
58 Lim-Duls Vault
59 Muddle The Mixture
60 Perplex
61 Intuition
62 Grim tutor
63 Unearth
64 Labratory Manic
65 Doomsday
66 Yawgmoth's Wil
Lands 34
67 Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth
68 Command Tower
69 Reflecting Pool
70 City of brass
71 Forbiden Orchard
72 Tarnished citadel
73 Sunken ruin
74 Drowned Catacomb
9 Fetch
3 Dual
3 Shock
7 Island
4 Swamp
Mana Curve updated counterspell in for swan song until it comes out
Basic Piles
All like cost assume you already played BBB for DD
Cantrip
Gitaxin Probe - this is a interesting cantrip to start a DD pile becuase so many of our piles end with a probe. However it is free which elucidate the initial cost of starting the pile but if you don't tack that cost back on the end you have to sacrifice a gush split this is useful
When using predict for 1UB we can build
Predict > LM > gush>unearth>yawgwin (6)
If we are going off fast enough we can make a pile for U
Gush > Cantrip>LED>Yawgmoths Will> LabMan (5-4 if no land drop)
Note any cantrip such as ponder has the same cost to build with the cantrip being Probe.
Note this pile allows you to use extra mana to cast binned cards or pacts or 0 to defend aginst spot removal however yawgwill getting countered is unprotected. at least you can try and luck pass lab man lol....
No mana? Not good! Even with a loaded SDT you will always need at least 1 mana after DD unless you pass turn!
Ponder and preordain function in a very similar fashion the cost is just in a different part of the equation.
ThoughtScour / Mental note/ Presict in hand
These piles are Gravey!
The number if times I see people in mtgo stop and stare when after what looked like a degenerate opener I intuition for thought scour predict and mental note? Not sure what to do in truth it's doesnt really matter ! For the most part.
Pile (5)
UB>> Labman > Deep analysis > gush > Unearth > Probe
Pile UB no gush Online (5)
Labman > Deep Analysis > LED> Ubearth > Probe
Anywhere you see a Probe you can slot in Pact of Negation for each draw in hand + mana cost you have open except in non yawgwill LED pile
Predict Piles
1U (5)
LM > Petal > Gush> Unearth > Probe
1UB(6) protected
LM > Pact of Negation > Gush > unearth > Probe
1U ( 5 ) no gush LED pile
LM > LED > Probe > yawgwill > Mana Crypt
In the end these 3 are very similar I'm function and are like a nessary ritual type card that changes the cost of your win con
Ideas Unbound IU can also be used in similar fashion as it also hits 3 cards this time you draw them all for UU.
This is actauly also awesome for the fast piles but we can't sneak in our sol ring or mama crypt mana like with predict
At
UU ( 5)
We can build
Lotus Petal LM GUSH> Probe > Mana Crypt
At UUU we can build the same but with Pact of negation for petal like before
Pact LM Gush > Probe Crypt
Without Gush
1UU ( 6) We can squeeze in colorless cost with our gush offline using SDT as probe 2
LED LM PRobe > Yawgwill > SDT
Gush ..... First note gush is awesome ... Now if gush is offline but in your hand with 1 island you can pile the island where you normaly would gush and if you had any back end costs is pays for them tapping reduce the cost of your piles !!
Also if you haven't made your land drop for turn you can subtract a color cost after gush you would normaly pay (unearth/Cabtrip) depending on how your hand looks Or even pays for a spell peirce in hand in a normal pile
If you just have gush you pretty much do a reverse predict or mental note pile in either case we are milling LM grabbingtge same 3-4 cards for 1U or UB piles
SDT piles
1U
Predict >Gush> LED > probe > Labman
UB
Mental note > Labman > Gush > Unearth> Probe
This should be a good idea of pile basics for now ...
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Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
Cast Doomsday ASAP, use Ideas Unbound to get the cards into your hand, win with Lab Maniac.
GUB [Retired Primer] The Mimeoplasm BUG
Modern: UR Storm RU
Cube: WUBRG Pauper Cube GRBUW
Credit for the banner goes to DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios
The ramp like spells (Nature's Lore, Search for tomorrow, Three Visits etc.) seem out of place with the whole concept of the deck. My vote is for more mana rocks in the realm of 0-1 mana, 2 max which you've done fine picking out all the good ones.
A few thoughts and questions:
Dimir Machinations is another tutor for Doomsday.
Recurring Insight is way above curve, and not really something i would say is desirable for this build in particular.
Meditate is a good draw when you're going off, and a lot easier on the mana.
Ranger's Guile and Vines of vastwood are good protection pieces for Lab man, and may prove better in a multiplayer environment than targeted Discard. Otherwise in 1v1 situation I would add in Inquisition of Kozilek to fill out your discard suite as well as Mind Twist.
Timetwister seems really strong here especially in a rock heavy hand where you can lay a few rocks cast timetwister and draw into gas.
When does Demonic Consultation become cast? I can see a few fringe cases, but are you not worried of exiling something of importance?
Tell me how Lotus Bloom works out. I've tried it in combo decks like this (Grixis if you were wondering) and wasn't super impressed with it, but it may work for you.
This should be a good enough start...I'll be following this deck's development
played a game last nite
turn 1 lotus petal S library
turn 2 nothing just use library
turn 3 Grim tutor for DD with non threshold cabal rut in hand and thoughtsour
turn 4 cabal rit 2 untapped use 3 to DD for labman /anything / gush / unearth /probe . turn 4 kill on 5 mans with extra cards in hand
on consultation it's primarily a combo card to exile your deck but if your about to lose you can always gamble with it certain card like yang win you cam just grab LAb man and recast etc the deck pilots like a puzzle duffer t prices fit together based on your hand mana etc. need a slot for mental note almost as good as scour enables 2 mana piles easy.
@ cabal good suggestion don't know how I overlooked meditate ill fix that
the ramp spells are better for gush
that tutor is playable
recurring insight is a draw 10 + is like ad naus here or damia gas to auto win
I don't own time twister I've been thinking about picking one up for awhile
thanks for suggestions see what I end up cutting
the deck should be fast enough to see it in opener enough to get it out for my win turn. bad top deck later for sure
I prefer the information from duress seize but vines etc are good as well as not needing extra mana on win turn
comment more you know what your talking about
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UBRBLACK ROSE COMMANDERUBR
WURGBTrades - Looking for ABU Duals, Fetches, Ect. Have Liliana otV, Snapcaster Mages, Chrod of Calling, Alters!WURGB
Commander
Omnath, Locus of Mana
GWBUR Genju of The Realms RUBWG
The time unless they are the good cheap ones I already have. It's very easy to move through a pile with a specific DD cantrip like predict thoughts out mental note ideas unbound infernal contract but we also be able to go with just SDT or a ponder a brainstorm etc . In addition you can use these cards early to reach for that tutor or get to your mama barrier muliganing properly whatever rules you use is important. But when you open hand a card like necro or recuring insight or ad naususm you can simply power one of those out turn 3-4 and be sitting at mana barrier drawing more than a new hand of cards it's hard not to hit a winning hand if your curve is low enough and you can see the lines. One game I got mindsculpted by some noob on mtgo and knew with my yawg will alone and what was in yard I could lim duhl to my DD ponder it into my hand and use the tap out to the predict in hand to easily go into my pile get my LM milled grab a gush and led gush my led into lab man probe.
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UBRBLACK ROSE COMMANDERUBR
WURGBTrades - Looking for ABU Duals, Fetches, Ect. Have Liliana otV, Snapcaster Mages, Chrod of Calling, Alters!WURGB
Commander
Omnath, Locus of Mana
GWBUR Genju of The Realms RUBWG
I already run demonic tutor Grimm tutor imperial seal mystical
Tutor personal tutor vampiric tutor are you talking about cruel tutor maybe?
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Btw not Demonic
Diabolic. (4 mana too much? I love tutor effects personally. Increasing Ambition might be better because of flashback though...)
UBRBLACK ROSE COMMANDERUBR
WURGBTrades - Looking for ABU Duals, Fetches, Ect. Have Liliana otV, Snapcaster Mages, Chrod of Calling, Alters!WURGB
Commander
Omnath, Locus of Mana
GWBUR Genju of The Realms RUBWG
I like these effects In a slower deck. 4 mana is too much for non
Instant speed
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Mirri's Guile? As Top #2 (Albeit weaker)
UBRBLACK ROSE COMMANDERUBR
WURGBTrades - Looking for ABU Duals, Fetches, Ect. Have Liliana otV, Snapcaster Mages, Chrod of Calling, Alters!WURGB
Commander
Omnath, Locus of Mana
GWBUR Genju of The Realms RUBWG
Monolith and a cmc 1 ramp like birds flop Damia t3 or tutor DD pass drop her t4 holding a spell peirce even draw 2 extra cards a turn is big tossing in natures claim and chain of vapor cheap counters cheap tutors lets you go from
A bust looking hand to instant win. Honestly if you can cast DD and you can cantrip you should be able to win you might need 1-2 mana ...
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UBRBLACK ROSE COMMANDERUBR
WURGBTrades - Looking for ABU Duals, Fetches, Ect. Have Liliana otV, Snapcaster Mages, Chrod of Calling, Alters!WURGB
Commander
Omnath, Locus of Mana
GWBUR Genju of The Realms RUBWG
changelog
- demonic consulation
- swamp
- Snapcaster Mage
+ Mental Note
+ Perplex
+ Meditate
Tutor in for combo piece that can counter or i can use on my own instant speed tutor to bin my hand with damia seems pretty saucy
Mental note for swamp i can always find lands this enables good piles at the cost of 5 on turn DD MN Unearth
Large Draw Spell that is great for opening a DD Pile petal probe top led Lm is a pile that cost 0 so at 6 mana i can DD MED ftw this was an oversight
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UBRBLACK ROSE COMMANDERUBR
WURGBTrades - Looking for ABU Duals, Fetches, Ect. Have Liliana otV, Snapcaster Mages, Chrod of Calling, Alters!WURGB
Commander
Omnath, Locus of Mana
GWBUR Genju of The Realms RUBWG
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Piloting it a little better. I tested a few cards didn't draw some of them I really liked telepathy as I can easily auto lose if I
Mis read a players hand the duress thought seize gitaxin probe cards have been awesome early on telepathy saved my ass big time the game I drew it perfect information for me and none for them worth losing a card.
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I'd still run Demonic Tutor. 4mana is a bit high for your purposes, but it's still another way to get DD by turn 4 if you're having a bad day. You're going for overall density, so you can't be but so picky in my opinion.
I'd drop Damia and use Sygg, River Cutthroat. The reasoning for it is you honestly don't use the green too incredibly much besides ramping, and because Sygg is a 2 drop you can land him earlier as a way to justify running Diabolic Intent, another great tutor.
UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR
Honestly you could be right about going 2 color ... Not for diabolic intent so much I haven't had any real problem
Getting doomsday by turn 3-4. I do however find it harder to go off with gush offline that would be the only reason to drop green. The cheap ramping spells abd sylvan library are better than getting to run diabolic Intent perhaps I could tweak my mana base a bit. I feel like basic islands are better than alot of my rainbow lands most games I play ... Without Gush sometimes your trying to go off turn 3 and you can't go off without piling a LED yawgwill pile leaving you open to auto loss to force of will .... I like the green honestly and if I get 2 islands out its better ... Opening with birds or Slibrary or even natures lore are perfect turn 1-2 plays so I can tutor turn 2-4 then go off. Sometimes you open hand the DD and i can't always decide between pass the turn pile on T2 or setting up depending on my hand I was pretty tired last mite I miss piled and killed myself more than once from forgetting to pile unearth to being to lazy to relize I can pile my Thoughtseize when I need to discard to led and pact would be useless etc. thank you for input though I might give it a test run as U/B but I Dont think it will be I do think I want to make more changes the recursion seems uneeded those might be carpet of flowers and something else haven't decided i haven't really loved meditate and infernal contract they always seem
Meh. A cantrip gets me better piles with an
Online gush and 6 on turn is more than this deck needs to have and even then your looking at LED piles which are more risky... Those might get swapped but it's goid in finding slots I think I need slightly more mana cantrip control the basics.
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DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429