I have not played this deck yet but this is my first draft of a deck designed to really abuse Derevi in multiple ways. The only thing I tried to limit myself from doing was using sacrifice outlets to go infinite with his activated ability; this seems un-fun and it would be kind of a pain to pull off. Tapping/Untapping looks a lot more powerful to me because it allows the deck to do things (surprisingly powerful things) and play cards few others do.
I tried to include a healthy amount of these to allow many different plays. Here are the ones I feel are highlights:
Coalition Relic can function as more than just a vulnerable Darksteel Ingot in this deck! While Derevi is around it can be used as a pseudo-Druid's Repository. This play will make you feel like a pro.
The Ravnica Karoos are included for a specific reason in this deck; they are twice as effective when untapped or tapped while Mana Reflection is on board (Eventide Filters are here for the Mana Reflection Interaction as well). Elvis Aberration and Gilded Lotus function similarly but in even more extreme ways.
These are fairly obvious additions to a Derevi deck although they aren't especially polite cards. The only extra thing I want to mention here is the possibility of abusing WinterStatic Orb (Foiled by power level errata again!) even more significantly by tapping it before your turn starts
+ / /
Filter your hand and draw whatever you want.
+ /
By using Sigil Tracer and another wizard (we have many to choose from in this deck, notably the general) you can copy an untap spell while it is on the stack. After letting the copy of the spell resolve you can feel free to use Sigil Tracer again and create another copy. Repeat this as many times as you can afford the 1U cost to use your other creature's tap abilities many times or infinite times if you have creatures that let you net mana when they untap. If you are using To Arms! then this will allow you to draw many cards and make big plays. This combo and Skyward Eye Prophets make me consider running more of these effects in the deck but I think Vitalize, To Arms!, and Turnabout are among the strongest and Kaho, Minamo Historian can potentially tutor for them. If you think some other untappers are worth including please tell me about them!
+
This can let you do goofy things. It all depends on your imagination and which other creatures you have in play. There are additional cards like Intruder Alarm that could make these kinds of combos easier to pull off but I'm reluctant to play Intruder Alarm in a deck that taps opponent's down as well. If the defensive/stax cards were removed then more raw power like these cards could be added. I'm not trying to go infinite every game anyway though, hopefully this interaction will be often strong without being infinite.
I am very excited to build and play this deck soon. Some cuts will be made to have more room for land and I am unsure if a bigger finisher will be added. Any input is very welcome.
Since you seem to be going all out anyways, Static Orb has shenanigans when you can tap it potentially at your opponents EOT and allow yourself to fully untap.
The only extra thing I want to mention here is the possibility of abusing Winter Orb even more significantly by tapping it before your turn starts
Sorry dude, I don't think that works anymore since they seem to have re-errataed Winter Orb. Oracle text no longer sports that handy "If it's untapped" clause.
If you're going to be abusing Lux Cannon, may I suggest also running Voltaic Key and Rings of Brighthearth? I've been running that trio for years to devastating effect. I was even recently accused of cheating by a whiny cry-baby of a past victim. Apparently he didn't like having all his permanents blown away in one turn.
"The distance between genius and insanity... Is measured only by success."
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
Since you seem to be going all out anyways, Static Orb has shenanigans when you can tap it potentially at your opponents EOT and allow yourself to fully untap.
Good one. It might actually be better than Winter Orb because I've been checking the oracle text and it looks like the older Orb has lost its continuous artifact functionality.
Sorry dude, I don't think that works anymore since they seem to have re-errataed Winter Orb. Oracle text no longer sports that handy "If it's untapped" clause.
If you're going to be abusing Lux Cannon, may I suggest also running Voltaic Key and Rings of Brighthearth? I've been running that trio for years to devastating effect. I was even recently accused of cheating by a whiny cry-baby of a past victim. Apparently he didn't like having all his permanents blown away in one turn.
Luckily ISBPathfinder gave me a good Winter Orb replacement. My more artifact-centered decks love running those cards with Unwinding Clock though, I'll have Seedborn here to go crazy with.
I'm thinking about the creature with tap abilities route, and I'm not sure it's precisely congruent with what the general offers. Vigilance creatures like Skyward Eye Prophets love Derevi because it's a win-win, of course. But otherwise it seems like those creatures can either tap for their ability in which they lose the ability to attack and rely on another creature to untap them, or they can attack to untap themselves or something else. First case is losing out on the attack, second case is only adding the value of the attack.
So it seems to me that the deck wants: A) tons of creatures, whether with tap abilities, on-hit abilities, or no abilities at all, and B) permanents with tap activations, whether or not creatures, that absorb all of the triggers. So, that's potentially broader.
On getting tons of creatures, cards like Mobilization and Sacred Mesa start paying for themselves and more with Derevi out. Creatures like Glen-Elendra Archmage and Trygon Predator also pick up the on-damage trigger and become a Sorcery-speed Arbor Elf in addition, at the very least. Basically anything that's a creature is good in Derevi, of course including, but not limited to, the creatures with tap abilities.
And on perms with activations, creatures are fine, certainly. But I do really like Lux Canon also, and that's the kind of find I'd lean more toward. Just a few off the top of my head, the Monolith-style of mana rocks: Mana Vault, Grim Monolith, etc. are really just a straight Thran Dynamo in Derevi. Also, there's probably lots of stuff in the style of Merieke Ri Berit that you're not supposed to be able to untap but now can.
Also in addition, Meekstone and Marble Titan are two non-land lockout pieces that you could run well here if you don't feel like being hostile toward people's mana.
Untapping Preacher and Rubinia Soulsinger between activation and resolution of the ability would cause it to do nothing.
10/1/2009: If Rubinia Soulsinger stops being tapped before its ability resolves -- even if it becomes tapped again right away -- you won't gain control of the targeted creature at all. The same is true if you lose control of Rubinia Soulsinger before the ability resolves.
"The distance between genius and insanity... Is measured only by success."
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
However Myr Turbine could indeed be quite fun, acting like a recurring Flash Mob.
Mass Double Strike enablers like True Conviction could also prove to be quite entertaining.
I BELIEVE that that ruling only matters if it's still untapped when the ability resolves. In between activation and resolution I don't think it matters.
However, it'd be impossible to stack combat triggers so that you could gain control of multiple things. You could flash in Derevi in between activation and resolution, though, and I believe that would work.
Nice decklist, gives me some ideas for my own. Hadn't even thought about lux cannon.
I BELIEVE that that ruling only matters if it's still untapped when the ability resolves. In between activation and resolution I don't think it matters.
Then you would be mistaken. Try reading the WHOLE ruling quote this time. It clearly states that it has to stay tapped the entire time between activation and resolution.
"The distance between genius and insanity... Is measured only by success."
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
Omega is correct that it will fizzle if they untap or leave play while their ability is on the stack that it wont steal the target. It can still be productive but you need sac outlets so you steal things, sac them, then untap. Untapping these several times without sac outlets is less productive.
Personally, I like sac outlets anyways as sacing Derevi means you can be ready to pull him/her out of the command zone again when needed as well as duck tuck effects.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Then you would be mistaken. Try reading the WHOLE ruling quote this time. It clearly states that it has to stay tapped the entire time between activation and resolution.
I did, repeatedly, and honestly I still think it's ambiguous whether "right away" means "before the first ability resolves", but I guess I must be wrong because everyone seems to think I am (I also added a thread in the rules forum). It might be that I'm confusing her with Merieke, who does let you control multiple creatures.
As long as we're talking sac outlets, voidmage prodigy seems like a must-have.
10/1/2009: If Rubinia Soulsinger leaves the battlefield, you no longer control it, so the duration of its control-change effect ends.
10/1/2009: If Rubinia Soulsinger stops being tapped before its ability resolves -- even if it becomes tapped again right away -- you won't gain control of the targeted creature at all. The same is true if you lose control of Rubinia Soulsinger before the ability resolves.
10/1/2009: Once the ability resolves, it doesn't care whether the targeted permanent remains a legal target for the ability, only that it's on the battlefield. The effect will continue to apply to it even if it gains shroud, stops being a creature, or would no longer be a legal target for any other reason.
I really like voidmage prodigy, my concern though is that everyone will just team up and target him out. I never like leaving repeatable counterspell sticks in play.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I've already been over this in the rulings forum, but I don't consider "right away" to explicitly mean "before the first ability resolves". I don't contest that, if she's untapped when it resolves, it does nothing.
Basically, the question is, does duration start when the ability is put on the stack or when it resolves? I thought it was resolution, but I guess I'm wrong. The comp rules don't say anything explicit about it, though, which bothers me.
Really, though, this is the wrong forum for this, which is why I tried to steer the thread away from it. How about that voidmage prodigy? eh? eh?
I really like voidmage prodigy, my concern though is that everyone will just team up and target him out. I never like leaving repeatable counterspell sticks in play.
Well don't just windmill slam it turn 2, but when you have 15 mana off your thawing glaciers and superior board position, it just autowins the game.
Rubia only gains control of the creature so long as she is in play and is tapped (and has not untapped) since the ability went on the stack. You can stop her from ever getting a creature by removing her with her ability on the stack. For her to be really good, you probably want sac outlets.
I view Voidmage + 15 mana sort of like Deadeye Navigator. Its great in theory, but people will 3v1 you until its gone. It is also very very blue heavy to try to activate it in a three color deck. Especially when you look at activating it and bringing things out and activating it again.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Rubia only gains control of the creature so long as she is in play and is tapped (and has not untapped) since the ability went on the stack. You can stop her from ever getting a creature by removing her with her ability on the stack. For her to be really good, you probably want sac outlets.
I view Voidmage + 15 mana sort of like Deadeye Navigator. Its great in theory, but people will 3v1 you until its gone. It is also very very blue heavy to try to activate it in a three color deck. Especially when you look at activating it and bringing things out and activating it again.
forget it, it's all in the rules forum.
With the etb untap, it basically just costs 1GWUU, not terribly heavy. With gilded lotus, it's 1GW. And you can use combat untaps to cast stuff on your turn, to say nothing of seedborn muse or her sister. Seems like a deal to me. 3v1 all you like, you'll still lose.
I made an effort to remove "do-nothing" or unnecessary tapping creatures to make room for some more guys with "when ~ deals combat damage triggers" and evasion. The criticism of too many tappers and too few guys that will get in there for damage was definitely true. I went overboard thinking of all thee juicy tap abilities I could reuse
I'm going to make room for Jodah's Avenger too (unblockable with TWO combat damage triggers, give this guy a Sword of Fire and Ice). and I'm considering these cards too:
Order of Whiteclay (I don't have to risk attacking with him to use the untap ability so he's a strong little necromancer)
Voidmage Prodigy seems nasty so I will find a cut to fit him in too. Maybe the creature version of Survival of the Fittest deserves a spot too, just for redundancy. My favorite plays are the ones where you completely change your board state to respond to something and SotF and Fauna Shaman really allow those to happen. I want to flash in a Kaho and then Bant charm someone's spell, or bring in this Voidmage Prodigy in response to someone's spell and counter it then.
With the etb untap, it basically just costs 1GWUU, not terribly heavy. With gilded lotus, it's 1GW. And you can use combat untaps to cast stuff on your turn, to say nothing of seedborn muse or her sister. Seems like a deal to me. 3v1 all you like, you'll still lose.
And if they start using spot removal in response to your commander???? It gets really spotty really quick. Plus, that leaves like zero room to try to do anything yourself and keep that sort of thing up.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
And if they start using spot removal in response to your commander???? It gets really spotty really quick. Plus, that leaves like zero room to try to do anything yourself and keep that sort of thing up.
You have combat triggers to untap after playing stuff on your turn. And you can recast your general with flash to counter whatever as long as you have mana. Not to mention you might have a regular counter if things get dicey.
I mean sure, if they have 6 instant removal spells headed your way, they'll break it, but big deal, you just lost 1 card. And if they come up short by 1, they have to start collecting instant speed removal all over again while you build up even more mana.
Unbreakable, no, but really really tough. Hard to see how it wouldn't be worth the inclusion. Plus you can morph him, so you can even keep it available on the board without revealing your combo.
You have combat triggers to untap after playing stuff on your turn. And you can recast your general with flash to counter whatever as long as you have mana. Not to mention you might have a regular counter if things get dicey.
I mean sure, if they have 6 instant removal spells headed your way, they'll break it, but big deal, you just lost 1 card. And if they come up short by 1, they have to start collecting instant speed removal all over again while you build up even more mana.
Unbreakable, no, but really really tough. Hard to see how it wouldn't be worth the inclusion. Plus you can morph him, so you can even keep it available on the board without revealing your combo.
I think it will be possible enough to flash him in to respond to stuff anyway. Just having it in the deck means that I can Survival for it and flash it in with Winding Canyons, Prophet of Kruphix, or Vedalken Orrery.
edit: or Alchemist's Refuge! forgot about that one but now it's added. These lands get absolutely filthy with Seedborn Muse.
Permission is rarely advisable in multi-player. Your opponents do more stuff as a group than you can alone. You won't have the mana or cards to keep up.
"The distance between genius and insanity... Is measured only by success."
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
Permission is rarely advisable in multi-player. Your opponents do more stuff as a group than you can alone. You won't have the mana or cards to keep up.
I'm not going to counter spells willy-nilly and you can see from the decklist I don't run that many answers but the access to some answers is nice.
It's not about countering every spell but rather trying to survive the spell that would kill me. And if Seedborn Muse is in play with Voidmage Prodigy I probably will actually have enough mana and cards to keep up and counter a hell of a lot of spells.
Permission is rarely advisable in multi-player. Your opponents do more stuff as a group than you can alone. You won't have the mana or cards to keep up.
I like how you're saying this as though I'm only dimly aware of how to play multiplayer.
Obviously rocking 50 counterspell clique won't cut it in multiplayer, but voidmage prodigy will definitely counter at least a few spells, and in the right circumstances he's a hard lock on the table. Even better than DEN + mystic snake, imo, since you can counter any (spell) responses with enough mana. Sure, it's not unstoppable, but worst case scenario is still pretty damn good. Sudden it's not worth running a card unless it's a guaranteed lockdown?
Yeah, a repeatable counterspell for 1GWUUU on board is strong and it should be included. If it draws hate so you get dogpiled and lose it, then you probably just played it at the wrong time. And people can just spot you out and dogpile you to begin with because you're potentially playing a repeatable counterspell setup already. Basically, you should be playing things to stop people from messing with your stuff because of the strategy you're playing in the first place.
Two cards I think should be in nearly every Derevi are Sakura Tribe Scout and Skyshroud Ranger. Exploration effects are super performers in every color, much less UGx where you can keep your hand stocked. In here, they are potentially 2x or even 3x Exploration on Turn 2, then even after you're out of land, they're potential attackers that can be used to twiddle things. I would even consider including Walking Atlas (as in OP) and Budoka Gardner at 2cmc in addition if they work out well, and I suspect that they will.
Otherwise in the mana department, Lotus Cobra, Coiling Oracle and Bloom Tender seem basically essential. I'm also including as many 1 and 2 drops that make sense. Attempting a Turn 3 Derevi when no one's representing a counter seems strong with 2 attacks, repping a 1U counterspell ourselves. After that point, the deck has lots of potential to just explode off mana and draw.
I also think that Silverblade Paladin has a place before Jodah's Avenger. Just in terms of raw power the additional double-strike is probably better than the evasion. Then particularly in conjunction with 2-drops with their own triggers like Looter il-Kor and Vedalken Heretic. If you are talking turn 2-3 you can generally find someone who is wide open. Then you can worry about evasion and blockers later.
Skyward Eye Prophets have a new best friend and he's a general too.
I have not played this deck yet but this is my first draft of a deck designed to really abuse Derevi in multiple ways. The only thing I tried to limit myself from doing was using sacrifice outlets to go infinite with his activated ability; this seems un-fun and it would be kind of a pain to pull off. Tapping/Untapping looks a lot more powerful to me because it allows the deck to do things (surprisingly powerful things) and play cards few others do.
1 Derevi, Empyrial Tactician
Creatures with Tap Abilities (19)
1 Kaho, Minamo Historian
1 Overtaker
1 Skyward Eye Prophets
1 Arcanis the Omnipotent
1 Order of Whiteclay
1 Bloom Tender
1 Experiment Kraj
1 Voyaging Satyr
1 Stonehewer Giant
1 Argothian Elder
1 Jushi Apprentice
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
1 Tradewind Rider
1 Sigil Tracer
1 Nullmage Shepherd
1 Budoka Gardener
1 Archivist
1 Jace's Archivist
1 Magus of the Unseen
Other Creatures (12)
1 Silverblade Paladin
1 Jodah's Avenger
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1 Prophet of Kruphix
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Copperhorn Scout
1 Village Bell-Ringer
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Sun Quan, Lord of Wu
1 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
1 Soltari Visionary
1 Looter il-Kor
1 Vitalize
1 Energy Arc
1 To Arms!
1 Turnabout
1 Rite of Replication
1 Arcane Denial
1 Bant Charm
1 Wargate
1 Timetwister
Enchantments (13)
1 Concordant Crossroads
1 Freed from the Real
1 Opposition
1 Glare of Subdual
1 Stasis
1 Mana Reflection
1 Mirari's Wake
1 Coastal Piracy
1 Nature's Will
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Rhystic Study
1 Mind Over Matter
1 Luminarch Ascension
Artifacts (13)
1 Citanul Flute
1 Akroma's Memorial
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Thousand-Year Elixir
1 Diviner's Wand
1 Umbral Mantle
1 Illusionist's Bracers
1 Vedalken Orrery
1 Sol Ring
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Static Orb
1 Coalition Relic
1 Lux Cannon
1 Reliquary Tower
1 High Market
1 Gavony Township
1 Thawing Glaciers
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Winding Canyon
1 Alchemist's Refuge
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Mystic Gate
1 Flooded Grove
1 Wooded Bastion
1 Simic Growth Chamber
1 Azorius Chanery
1 Selesnya Sanctuary
1 Calciform Pools
1 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Sunpetal Grove
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Command Tower
I tried to include a healthy amount of these to allow many different plays. Here are the ones I feel are highlights:
The Ravnica Karoos are included for a specific reason in this deck; they are twice as effective when untapped or tapped while Mana Reflection is on board (Eventide Filters are here for the Mana Reflection Interaction as well). Elvis Aberration and Gilded Lotus function similarly but in even more extreme ways.
These are fairly obvious additions to a Derevi deck although they aren't especially polite cards. The only extra thing I want to mention here is the possibility of abusing
WinterStatic Orb (Foiled by power level errata again!) even more significantly by tapping it before your turn startsFilter your hand and draw whatever you want.
By using Sigil Tracer and another wizard (we have many to choose from in this deck, notably the general) you can copy an untap spell while it is on the stack. After letting the copy of the spell resolve you can feel free to use Sigil Tracer again and create another copy. Repeat this as many times as you can afford the 1U cost to use your other creature's tap abilities many times or infinite times if you have creatures that let you net mana when they untap. If you are using To Arms! then this will allow you to draw many cards and make big plays. This combo and Skyward Eye Prophets make me consider running more of these effects in the deck but I think Vitalize, To Arms!, and Turnabout are among the strongest and Kaho, Minamo Historian can potentially tutor for them. If you think some other untappers are worth including please tell me about them!
This can let you do goofy things. It all depends on your imagination and which other creatures you have in play. There are additional cards like Intruder Alarm that could make these kinds of combos easier to pull off but I'm reluctant to play Intruder Alarm in a deck that taps opponent's down as well. If the defensive/stax cards were removed then more raw power like these cards could be added. I'm not trying to go infinite every game anyway though, hopefully this interaction will be often strong without being infinite.
1 Magus of the Library
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tidewater Minion
1 Weathered Wayfarer
1 Cerulean Wisps
1 Stoic Angel
1 Swiftfoot Boots
1 Empress Galina
1 Banishing Knack
1 Sword of the Paruns
1 Walking Atlas
1 Elvish Aberration
1 Timbermare
1 Savor the Moment
I totally forgot about Lux Cannon, nice find.
It looks like you could use more tutors and draw though.
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Sorry dude, I don't think that works anymore since they seem to have re-errataed Winter Orb. Oracle text no longer sports that handy "If it's untapped" clause.
If you're going to be abusing Lux Cannon, may I suggest also running Voltaic Key and Rings of Brighthearth? I've been running that trio for years to devastating effect. I was even recently accused of cheating by a whiny cry-baby of a past victim. Apparently he didn't like having all his permanents blown away in one turn.
Karona, Warden of AlcatrazWUBRG
The EPIC EDHWUBRG
Sun Quan Aggro1U
Animar GoodstuffRUG
Horobi MBCB
Medomai NerfWU
Saffi EriksdotterGW
Zur (CF)WUB
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
Good one. It might actually be better than Winter Orb because I've been checking the oracle text and it looks like the older Orb has lost its continuous artifact functionality.
Luckily ISBPathfinder gave me a good Winter Orb replacement. My more artifact-centered decks love running those cards with Unwinding Clock though, I'll have Seedborn here to go crazy with.
So it seems to me that the deck wants: A) tons of creatures, whether with tap abilities, on-hit abilities, or no abilities at all, and B) permanents with tap activations, whether or not creatures, that absorb all of the triggers. So, that's potentially broader.
On getting tons of creatures, cards like Mobilization and Sacred Mesa start paying for themselves and more with Derevi out. Creatures like Glen-Elendra Archmage and Trygon Predator also pick up the on-damage trigger and become a Sorcery-speed Arbor Elf in addition, at the very least. Basically anything that's a creature is good in Derevi, of course including, but not limited to, the creatures with tap abilities.
And on perms with activations, creatures are fine, certainly. But I do really like Lux Canon also, and that's the kind of find I'd lean more toward. Just a few off the top of my head, the Monolith-style of mana rocks: Mana Vault, Grim Monolith, etc. are really just a straight Thran Dynamo in Derevi. Also, there's probably lots of stuff in the style of Merieke Ri Berit that you're not supposed to be able to untap but now can.
Also in addition, Meekstone and Marble Titan are two non-land lockout pieces that you could run well here if you don't feel like being hostile toward people's mana.
Rubinia Soulsinger
Myr Turbine
Preacher
could be fun
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
Untapping Preacher and Rubinia Soulsinger between activation and resolution of the ability would cause it to do nothing.
Preacher has a similar ruling.
However Myr Turbine could indeed be quite fun, acting like a recurring Flash Mob.
Mass Double Strike enablers like True Conviction could also prove to be quite entertaining.
Karona, Warden of AlcatrazWUBRG
The EPIC EDHWUBRG
Sun Quan Aggro1U
Animar GoodstuffRUG
Horobi MBCB
Medomai NerfWU
Saffi EriksdotterGW
Zur (CF)WUB
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
I BELIEVE that that ruling only matters if it's still untapped when the ability resolves. In between activation and resolution I don't think it matters.
However, it'd be impossible to stack combat triggers so that you could gain control of multiple things. You could flash in Derevi in between activation and resolution, though, and I believe that would work.
Nice decklist, gives me some ideas for my own. Hadn't even thought about lux cannon.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Then you would be mistaken. Try reading the WHOLE ruling quote this time. It clearly states that it has to stay tapped the entire time between activation and resolution.
Karona, Warden of AlcatrazWUBRG
The EPIC EDHWUBRG
Sun Quan Aggro1U
Animar GoodstuffRUG
Horobi MBCB
Medomai NerfWU
Saffi EriksdotterGW
Zur (CF)WUB
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
Personally, I like sac outlets anyways as sacing Derevi means you can be ready to pull him/her out of the command zone again when needed as well as duck tuck effects.
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[Modern] Allies
I did, repeatedly, and honestly I still think it's ambiguous whether "right away" means "before the first ability resolves", but I guess I must be wrong because everyone seems to think I am (I also added a thread in the rules forum). It might be that I'm confusing her with Merieke, who does let you control multiple creatures.
As long as we're talking sac outlets, voidmage prodigy seems like a must-have.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I really like voidmage prodigy, my concern though is that everyone will just team up and target him out. I never like leaving repeatable counterspell sticks in play.
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[Modern] Allies
Your bolding is weird.
I've already been over this in the rulings forum, but I don't consider "right away" to explicitly mean "before the first ability resolves". I don't contest that, if she's untapped when it resolves, it does nothing.
Basically, the question is, does duration start when the ability is put on the stack or when it resolves? I thought it was resolution, but I guess I'm wrong. The comp rules don't say anything explicit about it, though, which bothers me.
Really, though, this is the wrong forum for this, which is why I tried to steer the thread away from it. How about that voidmage prodigy? eh? eh?
Well don't just windmill slam it turn 2, but when you have 15 mana off your thawing glaciers and superior board position, it just autowins the game.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I view Voidmage + 15 mana sort of like Deadeye Navigator. Its great in theory, but people will 3v1 you until its gone. It is also very very blue heavy to try to activate it in a three color deck. Especially when you look at activating it and bringing things out and activating it again.
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[Modern] Allies
forget it, it's all in the rules forum.
With the etb untap, it basically just costs 1GWUU, not terribly heavy. With gilded lotus, it's 1GW. And you can use combat untaps to cast stuff on your turn, to say nothing of seedborn muse or her sister. Seems like a deal to me. 3v1 all you like, you'll still lose.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
- E Wit
- Weathered Wayfarer
- Tidewater Minion
+ Looter il-Kor
+ Soltari Visionary
+ Timetwister
I'm going to make room for Jodah's Avenger too (unblockable with TWO combat damage triggers, give this guy a Sword of Fire and Ice). and I'm considering these cards too:
Voidmage Prodigy seems nasty so I will find a cut to fit him in too. Maybe the creature version of Survival of the Fittest deserves a spot too, just for redundancy. My favorite plays are the ones where you completely change your board state to respond to something and SotF and Fauna Shaman really allow those to happen. I want to flash in a Kaho and then Bant charm someone's spell, or bring in this Voidmage Prodigy in response to someone's spell and counter it then.
And if they start using spot removal in response to your commander???? It gets really spotty really quick. Plus, that leaves like zero room to try to do anything yourself and keep that sort of thing up.
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[Modern] Allies
You have combat triggers to untap after playing stuff on your turn. And you can recast your general with flash to counter whatever as long as you have mana. Not to mention you might have a regular counter if things get dicey.
I mean sure, if they have 6 instant removal spells headed your way, they'll break it, but big deal, you just lost 1 card. And if they come up short by 1, they have to start collecting instant speed removal all over again while you build up even more mana.
Unbreakable, no, but really really tough. Hard to see how it wouldn't be worth the inclusion. Plus you can morph him, so you can even keep it available on the board without revealing your combo.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I think it will be possible enough to flash him in to respond to stuff anyway. Just having it in the deck means that I can Survival for it and flash it in with Winding Canyons, Prophet of Kruphix, or Vedalken Orrery.
edit: or Alchemist's Refuge! forgot about that one but now it's added. These lands get absolutely filthy with Seedborn Muse.
Karona, Warden of AlcatrazWUBRG
The EPIC EDHWUBRG
Sun Quan Aggro1U
Animar GoodstuffRUG
Horobi MBCB
Medomai NerfWU
Saffi EriksdotterGW
Zur (CF)WUB
-Elliot Carver, Tomorrow Never Dies
"If violence isn't solving it, you're obviously not using enough!"
-Me
A kid at my local gameshop wanted to break a twenty.
"You got 2 tens?" he asked me.
"No, but I probably got 3 fives." I replied.
"Perfect!"
"You might want to check your math there."
I'm not going to counter spells willy-nilly and you can see from the decklist I don't run that many answers but the access to some answers is nice.
It's not about countering every spell but rather trying to survive the spell that would kill me. And if Seedborn Muse is in play with Voidmage Prodigy I probably will actually have enough mana and cards to keep up and counter a hell of a lot of spells.
I like how you're saying this as though I'm only dimly aware of how to play multiplayer.
Obviously rocking 50 counterspell clique won't cut it in multiplayer, but voidmage prodigy will definitely counter at least a few spells, and in the right circumstances he's a hard lock on the table. Even better than DEN + mystic snake, imo, since you can counter any (spell) responses with enough mana. Sure, it's not unstoppable, but worst case scenario is still pretty damn good. Sudden it's not worth running a card unless it's a guaranteed lockdown?
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Two cards I think should be in nearly every Derevi are Sakura Tribe Scout and Skyshroud Ranger. Exploration effects are super performers in every color, much less UGx where you can keep your hand stocked. In here, they are potentially 2x or even 3x Exploration on Turn 2, then even after you're out of land, they're potential attackers that can be used to twiddle things. I would even consider including Walking Atlas (as in OP) and Budoka Gardner at 2cmc in addition if they work out well, and I suspect that they will.
Otherwise in the mana department, Lotus Cobra, Coiling Oracle and Bloom Tender seem basically essential. I'm also including as many 1 and 2 drops that make sense. Attempting a Turn 3 Derevi when no one's representing a counter seems strong with 2 attacks, repping a 1U counterspell ourselves. After that point, the deck has lots of potential to just explode off mana and draw.
I also think that Silverblade Paladin has a place before Jodah's Avenger. Just in terms of raw power the additional double-strike is probably better than the evasion. Then particularly in conjunction with 2-drops with their own triggers like Looter il-Kor and Vedalken Heretic. If you are talking turn 2-3 you can generally find someone who is wide open. Then you can worry about evasion and blockers later.
Thank you! I had only included Walking Atlas because I couldn't remember or find Sakura Tribe Scout. I might benefit from using both.
Magistrate's Scepter
throw in Voltaic Key/Rings of Brighthearth/Doubling Season, a hand full of evasive weeny creatures (Think Edric) and some fat mana rocks or Gaea's Cradle and you lock the table.
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort