Hello all, I am finaly stepping out from the shadows, I have long browsed the forums as a silent observer, but never bothered making an account. I have been playing EDH for over 3 years, and magic for who knows how long. In my second year of EDH I switched to the 1v1 format. I never wanted to post my deck list for fear of it being stolen, but now that I have played it enough and some of the better known players like Evergreen, Tigertanaka, and Jester are familiar with it, on top of the large number of spectators on every match I figured it was about time to post the deck so that I would at least be recognized as the creator and innovator of it. I've been playing it for a good two years, and it was the fact that Emrakul was unbanned that made me make the switch to this format, it was a solid deck with Ulamog and blight-steel in classic EDH but Emrakul really makes it terrifying.
Why her?
I choose Kaho as my general as I have always been a Johnny player, I love creative deck building more then any other aspect of the game, and I allways feel that I must be orginal with what I come up with, and that It also has to be competitive, I'm the type of guy who likes to come up with metas. So on went my quest to find a general no one used who I could make something creative with and blast my competition away.
(On a side note after porting over to 1v1 to test this deck, I had began working on porting Iname death aspect, the very first edh deck I ever made, Black is my favorite color by far, I wanted to make my name with the deck, but then I ran into evergreen and not only was I amazed to see how much more refined his was...I was sad that it would not be an original deck so on I focused on this deck instead)
The deck may appear to be a slower paced control deck, and while it certainly has that option should the need arise, it is actually a lightning fast combo deck pumping out Emrakul consistently by turn 5 and sometimes sooner.
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The Basics:
The primary combo of the deck is to ramp up, cast Kaho on turn 3-4 searching only a mystical tutor, then on your upkeep tutor polymorph draw into it, play another land and polymorph Kaho into Emrakul. I usually only do this if I have a free counter spell like force of will in my hand (or when I am feeling lazy, cocky, or am to tired for a long match.) The rest of the time I ramp a little more until I have enough mana to protect my kaho with a counter spell. Should the first combo fail the back up works by fetching reweave and some protection and again waiting till you have enough mana to cast reweave and a counter. Should this fail you then resort to stalling searching counters and draw cards.
I rarely search more then one or two cards at a time with her in case she gets removed, because sadly the ruling on her is even when she is re-summoned she cant use the things she previously exiled. So I only search the full amount if I have blown the tutorable combos, or am in a position that I am not going to poly her, or that I am sure I can protect if I am not going to poly her right away.
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Onto card selection and why I have chosen the slots I have.
The first thing people notice is I am missing many of the staple draw engines like Ryhstic study. This is for two reasons, number one all of the draw cards I picked can get Emrakul out of my hand should it be necessary, number two you really don’t want to accidentally draw into emrakul so having heavy draw power in a deck were it is not needed due to the generals tutor ability is unnecessary. Also I choose instant speed ones so they are tutorable which is pretty important for when you have Emrakul in your hand.
While there may be sorcery versions of many of these cards that are stronger, I largely stuck to instants because of Kahos ability.
I run a lot of man lands and stones that can turn into creatures as they are usually preferred targets over Kaho, that way kaho can stick around with extra counters, also I am quite often am able to polymorph without even casting kaho, those are the amazing times that Emrakul comes out even sooner then turn 5. Also man lands provide protection to sacrifice cards such as the edict series and their relatives saving either Kaho, or Emrakul. And of course in a pinch you can use them to chump block and in incredibly rare occasions you can actually win the game just by mega control and pecking at people with them. On a related note I found slots for Control Magic and similar cards because not only are they wonderful on their own, they also give you food polymorph.
Tezzeret the Seeker and Fabricate Transmute artifact allows for a cheap and semi tutorable way to search up proteus staff which is another wonderful polymorph tool as well as interesting utility to use against your opponents threats, and or to put a stolen Emrakul back into your deck. They also can be used to search out swift foot boots or Elixir should they be needed and you already have your polymorph engine ready to go.
I opted out of time walks as they are relatively high mana which causes them to usually end up as dead cards to me, and are usually too risky to play because should they get countered I'm all tapped out.
I'm running an excessive amount of mana rocks because the deck needs to function quickly because unlike your classic blue control it does not have many card advantage generating sources so while you can generally out control another control deck as you have so many slots dedicated to counters, you don't have enough card advantage to shut down aggro decks for very long or beat control in the long run. I have tried a slower paced control variant and It just did not feel nearly as strong because the longer the game goes on the less effective Emrakul will be, and of course who can argue that a fast combo is a bad thing. If you truly prefer a slower paced version of the deck mikel123 kami deck is better at that.
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Slots:
Other cards I have considered and either took out or haven't gotten around to testing/couldent find things to take out for them:
Bad Matchups:
The deck does pretty well against every other competitive deck, save gaddock teeg, that deck is a nightmare for this one, it can be beaten and the trick to it is either Kaho>Pongify and or searching up a Proteus staff via Kaho>mystical>Transmute Artifact. But it is tough. Other than that the deck struggles a little against decks with heavy spot control like evergreens Iname deck, but as long as you play cautious its perfectly manageable, me and evergreen have a fairly even match history, although I’ll admit he does have a few up on me right now but ill chalk that up to lately I have only played him in the dead of night when exhausted and very prone to making mistakes :P, after all 2 jobs and college does not leave you with much free time. (I generally update this thread from my phone while at work)
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Epilogue/Looking to improve:
I truly feel that I have created a top tier deck, however I know there is room for improvement, I made this deck a long time ago, and I haven't really made any changes for quite some time other than briefly testing out a slower paced version. Rather than trying to keep my little masterpiece a secret any longer I have finally given in and am looking to improve it as it has needed an update for a while, as of late I have become interested in really getting into the competitive scene and getting recognized. I’m open to suggestions and what I'm looking for most is other instant speed win conditions that Kahoo could abuse as currently it’s either poly, or pray to win with an early Jace, or super control man land attack.
__________________ Change Log:
Since posting thread
+Everflowing chalice,-Chormantic Lantern
+Dissolve, -Cancel
+S-island, -Mox Diamond
+ Memory Lapse, -Condesend
+ Mizzium Skin, -Veil of Secrecy
+Delay, -Mage's Guile
+Spell Pierce, -Stifle
+swan song, -Trick Bind
+Sisland, -Dark Steel Ingot
+ 14 island, -14s-island.
+Transmute Artifact, -Tezzeret the Seeker
+Pongify, -Personal Tutor
+Thousand-Year Elixir, -Fabricate
+Remand, -Hinder
+Fact or Fiction, - Pulse of the Grid
+Guardian Idol, Eye of Ramos
+Arcane Denial, -Fact or Fiction
+Stifle, -Mass Polymorph
+Trickbind, -Dissipate
+Dispel, - Dissolve
+Essence Scatter, -Propganda
+Nullify, - Stoic Rebuttal
(The other thing that pushed me to make this thread was seeing mikel123's kami deck geting spotlighted, his deck was incredibly similar to mine, so I figured I better post this quickly before someone could come to the conclusion that I was just trying to improve upon his ideas when in fact I have been playing this much longer then he has, evergreen and tiger can testify to that...also I just cant stand mikel123, he is one of the rudest and most unprofessional players I have ever met, hes a good at magic Ill give him that, but I cant stand him as a person, and the idea that my deck could be associated with him is something I dearly do not want)
1) ouch... sorry? I recognize your name but I don't think we've crossed paths in a very long time, and I don't remember many specifics. I wouldn't object if you called me "impatient", which is certainly a fault I'd admit to succumbing to in most matches, but when you have a wife and two kids and somewhere in the neighborhood of 32 minutes a week to play MTG, you want to make the most of it.
2) not to be rude and unprofessional, but as far as posting quickly in response to the spotlight, you're almost a year late I think the OP was updated with the Kami deck in December 2012, and for whatever reason just hasn't been updated since.
3) give yourself more credit - our decks are entirely different. I think I first played vs. your Kaho deck while Emrakul was still banned; I have no idea what your win condition was then (maybe a Stroke of Genius or something), but I didn't think it was Polymorph the first time we played. I could be thinking of another Kaho deck/player though. The Kami deck wins more games with Stasis than it wins with Polymorph, for example, too. Just completely different strategies that happen to have color and a couple very niche cards in common. Heck, Polymorph in my deck wasn't even my idea... I think in my original thread, someone else mentions it in there (Virtus?).
Knowing when to Polymorph is probably my biggest weakness; I almost certainly err on the side of holding it back too much. And this is after 600+ games. I think if you're routinely trying to fetch it and cast it on turn 5, you're probably erring on the side of being too aggressive with it.
As far as feedback... first ask yourself if your deck is better than Talrand. For a monoblue deck, spending 4 mana in the main phase is really risky. As is waiting until later in the game against aggro to have some counter mana up. At least Talrand can come down and almost immediately have a half-dozen blockers. Your deck relies on playing Kaho and basically being able to block one creature one time in the span of two turns before it takes control.
More specific suggestions...
Eye of Ramos, Chromatic Lantern, and Chronatog Totem seem too slow. They don't help you get a turn 3 Kaho. I'd put in some two-mana stones in their place if you're hellbent on getting him down turn 3.
Are Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond really worth it? Somehow I think not. In Kami, there's two reasons to play them. One is because Kami helps you draw more cards than you know what to do with anyways. And two is because a turn 1 Kami on the play can be extremely strong against decks with mostly two-mana kill spells (i.e. black).
Mage's Guile and Veil of Secrecy seem out of place. Presumably there to protect Kaho, but if you're waiting until turn 6 to cast him, why not just play a 2-mana counterspell instead (Memory Lapse and Remand are notable absences from your deck, and Delay would be far better suited for your deck than Kami and probably should be in there). Heck, even Prohibit would seem to do most of what Veil of Secrecy does, while being far more versatile.
I think I realize why you don't play Daze, but I'd certainly try it if you haven't already. I'm also fairly happy with Disrupting Shoal, which may be worth a try in your deck.
Reweave should be played instead of Mass Polymorph; instant-speed at their EOT is fantastic for avoiding 99% of what can stop Emrakul.
I am running reweave, and i regularly tutor for it with kaho as a back up, I am also runing daze its under the (free) counter spells. I am also runing every 2 star mana rock I could think of, if there are any I missed tell me and I will absolutely make room for them! I do feel chrome is very needed for speed, but lately I have felt like id prefer mox to just be a island.
I agree with you about memory lapse, and delay I will find room for them, totally spaced about them. I tried remand and it just felt like all those one cost lightning bolts and swords to the plowshares just ignore it. Also i tried prohibit but it just didnt hit enough things. As for disrupting shoal, i haven't tried it but i just might, i figured i wouldn't have the right cost card for the occasion but its worth a shot.
In my basics section I explained that I only play kaho early if I have a free counterspell like force in my hand, and by turn 5 with the 3 cost mana rocks I am able to play kaho safety. Mages guile and the other one are actually new additions as of today :D, The decks primary weakness is to spot control it helps a ton there.They protect kaho for the turn I summon him so on my upkeep i can combo. But i am still testing them.
We have crossed paths recently as well as in the past, the first time I was running blightsteel/ulamog instead of emrakul, you were fairly rude and impatient with me that time, but we made it through the one round and you promptly left before game 2, then I avoided you for awhile and finally ran into you shortly after emrakul came around...on turn 2 I misc-licked the wrong land and quickly put it back in my hand...you said a few derogatory things and immediately set me to ignore. Then I came across you again a month or so ago since the cockatrice server had been reset and moved to woogerworks so i was un-ignored. Then that time first few turns went ok, we realized we were playing nearly a mirror match, and were both entertained by it, and things were civil. Then you played stasis which I did not notice, I proceeded with my turn as normal, played a mana rock or something and then you said something derogatory and before I could apologize I was kicked and ignored yet again. That was 3 strikes plus hearing that you had done this to quite a few other people led to that disclaimer.
I am super surprised that you were the first to post, and did so in a very constructive and civil manner which I appreciate, although I hope you will read it in more detail, as i already run several things you suggested, and have answered certain parts of it in my explanations.
(Yea i know the spot light is fairly old, didn't realize that old thought it was only a few months, but I only noticed it was your deck after our most recent encounter)
I also have 2 jobs and college so when I get time to play Im dead tired and can be a little slow on my turns and noticing things and such...
Veil of Secrecy should be replaced for Mizzium Skin. It's 1 mana cheaper, and has the added benefit of being able to protect Kamo while you're trying to go off with Polymorph (Veil gives shroud, and would cause Polymorph to fizzle).
I would replace Chromatic Lantern or Darksteel Ingot for Everlowing Chalice. It comes out a turn earlier, and can be kicked multiple times to give you a huge mana rock when you're playing the waiting game versus a deck packing removal.
I would also re-work your counter suite. You're playing way too many 3 mana counters for a combo deck like this. 3 mana counters are also just generally bad in this format - they're too slow.
Fabricate: what's up with this? Even if Proteus Staff is a combo piece, paying 9 mana for a polymorph is way too much. Your game plan is also super obvious with Fabricate. I also don't see the need for an extra tutor when Kamo tutors herself.
Trickbind / Stifle: You're not a tempo deck, and can't really take advantage of countering a fetchland search. I know why they're tempting to play, but you'll be much better off with just a reliable counter in these slots.
Propaganda: If you're having that hard a time against aggro decks, I would prefer Wash Out in this slot.
Other adds:
Tamiyo, the Moon Sage: I think this merits inclusion in every U deck. It's just an incredible win condition.
Lands: I think 37 is too low for this deck - I would play 40. You want to hit 6 lands minimum pretty much every game, and 37 is just too low to do that reliably.
(Biggest thing I would like help thinking of is instant speed win conditions, for example infinite/stroke of genius)
I am runing Chalice :D, made that exact switch about an hour ago, it used to be in the deck, but I lost my mana rock list when I accidentally saved over it with my slower control variant.
I have no clue what happened to my spell peirce it used to be in there, adding back!
Swan song is genius, its in!
Tried snare didnt like it.
Remand...sigh everyone keeps recommending it, Ill have to give it another try, still dont like it.
Fabricate absolutely can not be cut, it is often an essential win card against gaddock teeg my worst match up.
I put in stifle/trickbind to save me from cards such as Umezawa's Jitte, with the fetch lands as a secondary, But you are probaly right.
I like propaganda :(, I have considered wash out but not over prop.
As amazing as tamyio is I just dont think she fits here, but if i find an extra spot ill give her another try, she certainly wont replace jace :P.
The only thing I can really cut for for lands are mana rocks :(, i might drop another rock, maybe two, but I dont think ill make it to 40.
We have crossed paths recently as well as in the past, the first time I was running blightsteel/ulamog instead of emrakul, you were fairly rude and impatient with me that time, but we made it through the one round and you promptly left before game 2, then I avoided you for awhile and finally ran into you shortly after emrakul came around...on turn 2 I misc-licked the wrong land and quickly put it back in my hand...you said a few derogatory things and immediately set me to ignore. Then I came across you again a month or so ago since the cockatrice server had been reset and moved to woogerworks so i was un-ignored. Then that time first few turns went ok, we realized we were playing nearly a mirror match, and were both entertained by it, and things were civil. Then you played stasis which I did not notice, I proceeded with my turn as normal, played a mana rock or something and then you said something derogatory and before I could apologize I was kicked and ignored yet again. That was 3 strikes plus hearing that you had done this to quite a few other people led to that disclaimer.
I am super surprised that you were the first to post, and did so in a very constructive and civil manner which I appreciate, although I hope you will read it in more detail, as i already run several things you suggested, and have answered certain parts of it in my explanations.
I don't say derogatory things. Ever. If I don't want to play you, I don't play you. If I want to leave after our first game, I will do so. We are under no obligation to each other to play a best 2-out-of-3 set... especially in a format with no sb. And there is ZERO chance I left a game because you misclicked the wrong land.
I don't recall when the Woogerworks move was, but it had to have been a while ago... I've not played more than 20 games of MTG in 2013.
As for constructively responding to your post... I have relatively thick skin. I'm here because I like deckbuilding and sharing MTG ideas. I don't hold grudges. It's truly a waste of time.
Back to the topic at hand... sorry I missed seeing Reweave in there. Your rationale for the 3-mana rocks makes sense I guess. Isn't there a 3cc rock that gains you 1 life each time you use it? That might be better than Chromatic Lantern in 99% of games outside of Contamination.
Remand is amazing. Yes, it's not great for trying to stop a Swords to Plowshares, but it's outrageously good for anything that costs more than 2 mana. I also take extreme pleasure in Remand-ing commanders, since it kind of nullifies the card advantage of being able to cast the commander outside of your hand (at least in my deck, in which my opponent is often at 7+ cards and must discard). I think behind FoW, it's the most commonly played blue card in top tecks. May not be great for your turn 4/5 Kaho plan, but if you're forced into a more control route in a game, it's great.
Control Magic seems weak. Too many decks can deal with it and leave you with card disadvantage.
Minamo is cute with Kaho, but how many games do you lose because it gets Wasteland-ed, Dust Bowl-ed, or from Blood Moon, etc.? If you're only ever fetching one card with Kaho, there's little sense in untapping him.
Also what's with snow-covered islands? If you're not playing any snow-related cards, are you just hoping to come across an opponent who Exraplanar Lens' their own snow-covered island? Is this just game theory? Personally at this point, I'd run half snow and half regular.
Control magic serves the duel purpose of beeing poly food, and if someone burns removal at what I take, that's less to worry about with kaho, it's not great, I'd be willing to cut it if really started to struggle for room, but it stays for now.
Nailed it with the lands, good idea, I have made the change.
Cute with kajo yea...but main reason it's there is to untapp in a perma tap situation like tamyio.
-Mass Polymorph: Why is this in? A 6 mana sorcery is just way too vulnerable to combo off with. You have Polymorph to tutor for first, and then Reweave. If you're forced to tutor for Mass Polymorph, you've almost certainly lost by this point.
-Tezzeret, the Seeker: 5 mana to tutor for Proteus Staff just seems to weak. You play no creatures, so Tezzeret will almost 100% die the turn after he's played, making him a weak source of card advantage. I don't think you're this much in need of another tutor for Proteus Staff.
-Fabricate: I think playing this card just to beat Teeg is a mistake. (1) Because Teeg sees little play, and (2) There are better ways to beat Teeg (which I'll suggest below).
Adds:
-Thousand-Year Elixir: This card dramatically changes how your game plan progresses, letting you tap out for Kaho on turn 5, with her able to protect herself with Swan Song. If you have more mana, it becomes even harder to kill her, as another 2 mana lets her untap and play Mizzium Skin or Spell Pierce to protect her a second time.
-Fact or Fiction: Even if you're playing combo, this is one of the top 5 blue spells; a clear upgrade over Pulse.
-Pongify: A much better spell for dealing with Teeg. Also tutorable with Kaho, and another out for dealing with Zur.
-Spell Snare: Probably 60% of the most powerful spells in this format are at 2 CMC. I know this is an annoying card to have when they're playing their 6 mana bomb, but this will guaranteed win you more games than it loses (especially because its another cheap out to enemy countermagic).
Mass was a new add because I really liked beeing able to Polly without casting kaho via man lands and man rocks just off of a nice draw, but yea it's not important because I can't tutor for it since mystical will be used for poly, but yea I'll drop it in favor of one of your adds.
I still really like tez because he puts proteus staff strait onto the field.
But I suppose fabricate can go in favor of an add.
Pognify is a solid idea I will find room for it
I will try out fact or fiction over pulse, but I am not completly sold
I like the idea of elixir I'll give it a try, I had it in deck a lOng time ago, but didnt have things like Sean song to use it with so it got cut, but now that I am getting all these on mana in it makes alot o since.
Sigh spell snare...blaargh what would I switch it for.
If you really feel like you need more ways to tutor for Proteus Staff, I would consider Transmute Artifact. It means sacrificing a mana rock, but is an only 2 or 3 mana way to put Proteus Staff into play.
I suppose that's a valid point, and this way it will still be searchable. I'll switch tezz for it.
Though I should emphasize I don't think additional tutors are necessary in a deck where your general is a 1 card combo. I much prefer adding resiliency, simply because time is a scarce luxury in this format - most decks won't give you the space necessary to attempt the combo multiple times.
Again personal was added as a way to polymorph without even casting kaho, but on that note I think I would prefer to cut it over mass polrmorph, as mass polymorph can hit multiple man lands at a time making stopping it much harder, but i may end up cutting both.
So lately I have been getting real tired of emmy getting o-ringed so I am in the process of building a variant that has a bunch of infinite mana to fuel blue sun zenith, stroke of genius, or a hardcasted emmy. Sadly kahos inability to cast x spells makes this much more difficult, as she can be used to make the infinite mana combo super fast, but its rather slow to make sure I have a win condition in hand. Im not sure how much potential it has, Ill post it if I can get it running smoothly.
Lat-Nam's Legacy would be a nice, tutorable-with-Kaho way to get Emrakul back into your library if you draw him. I'd imagine you wouldn't have many other win conditions other than hardcasting him if he ended up in your hand.
I run frantic search, Thirst for Knowledge, and brainstorm for that very purpose, and considering kahos tutor ability I am not really in need of more of them but thank you for the suggestion.
How about taking your typical Talrand deck and putting Kaho as general, alongside Polymorph, Reweave and Emrakul? Granted it is a bit risky, but I think a tighter combo package, losing the mana rocks can make for a perfectly protected combo output.
Still, have you tested if a normal Talrand deck is just plain better?
Talrand runs a bunch of draw spells and cheap casts to abuse his ability that set up would do very little for kaho. Kaho needs strong spells and solid defensive counters, it does not need draw power as Kaho searches for the combo every time, removing the mana rocks from the deck will only slow down the combo which is really bad for this type of deck.
As for running a poly morph engine in Talrand I have tried that out, I think it is better then classic tal but not as good as kaho variant.
[ Made it into the mega thread ]
Hello all, I am finaly stepping out from the shadows, I have long browsed the forums as a silent observer, but never bothered making an account. I have been playing EDH for over 3 years, and magic for who knows how long. In my second year of EDH I switched to the 1v1 format. I never wanted to post my deck list for fear of it being stolen, but now that I have played it enough and some of the better known players like Evergreen, Tigertanaka, and Jester are familiar with it, on top of the large number of spectators on every match I figured it was about time to post the deck so that I would at least be recognized as the creator and innovator of it. I've been playing it for a good two years, and it was the fact that Emrakul was unbanned that made me make the switch to this format, it was a solid deck with Ulamog and blight-steel in classic EDH but Emrakul really makes it terrifying.
Without Further ado I present my deck list
1 Kaho, Minamo Historian
Acceleration:
1 Mind Stone
1 Everflowing Chalice
1 Coldsteel Heart
1 Coalition Relic
1 High Tide
1 Star Compass
1 Sky Diamond
1 Prismatic Lens
1 Jeweled Amulet
1 Chrome Mox
1 Chronatog Totem
1 Fellwar Stone
1 Guardian Idol
Draw:
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Frantic Search
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Brainstorm
Counters/Protection:
1 Force Spike
1 Miscalculation
1 Flusterstorm
1 Forbid
1 Remand
1 Mana Leak
1 Negate
1 Stoic Rebuttal
1 Memory Lapse
1 Counterspell
1 Dissipate
1 Faerie Trickery
1 Mizzium Skin
1 Delay
1 Dissolve
1 Spell Pierce
1 Swan Song
1 Thwart
1 Daze
1 Force of Will
1 Pact of Negation
1 Commandeer
1 Misdirection
1 Mental Misstep
Board Control:
1 Cryptic Command
1 Evacuation
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Propaganda
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Treachery
1 Control Magic
1 Boomerang
Utility:
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Swiftfoot Boots
1 Thousand-Year Elixir
1 Pongify
1 Transmute Artifact
Land:
15 S-Island
14 Island
1 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Faerie Conclave
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Mutavault
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Reweave
1 Proteus Staff
1 Polymorph
1 Mass Polymorph
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
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Why her?
I choose Kaho as my general as I have always been a Johnny player, I love creative deck building more then any other aspect of the game, and I allways feel that I must be orginal with what I come up with, and that It also has to be competitive, I'm the type of guy who likes to come up with metas. So on went my quest to find a general no one used who I could make something creative with and blast my competition away.
(On a side note after porting over to 1v1 to test this deck, I had began working on porting Iname death aspect, the very first edh deck I ever made, Black is my favorite color by far, I wanted to make my name with the deck, but then I ran into evergreen and not only was I amazed to see how much more refined his was...I was sad that it would not be an original deck so on I focused on this deck instead)
The deck may appear to be a slower paced control deck, and while it certainly has that option should the need arise, it is actually a lightning fast combo deck pumping out Emrakul consistently by turn 5 and sometimes sooner.
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The Basics:
The primary combo of the deck is to ramp up, cast Kaho on turn 3-4 searching only a mystical tutor, then on your upkeep tutor polymorph draw into it, play another land and polymorph Kaho into Emrakul. I usually only do this if I have a free counter spell like force of will in my hand (or when I am feeling lazy, cocky, or am to tired for a long match.) The rest of the time I ramp a little more until I have enough mana to protect my kaho with a counter spell. Should the first combo fail the back up works by fetching reweave and some protection and again waiting till you have enough mana to cast reweave and a counter. Should this fail you then resort to stalling searching counters and draw cards.
I rarely search more then one or two cards at a time with her in case she gets removed, because sadly the ruling on her is even when she is re-summoned she cant use the things she previously exiled. So I only search the full amount if I have blown the tutorable combos, or am in a position that I am not going to poly her, or that I am sure I can protect if I am not going to poly her right away.
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Onto card selection and why I have chosen the slots I have.
The first thing people notice is I am missing many of the staple draw engines like Ryhstic study. This is for two reasons, number one all of the draw cards I picked can get Emrakul out of my hand should it be necessary, number two you really don’t want to accidentally draw into emrakul so having heavy draw power in a deck were it is not needed due to the generals tutor ability is unnecessary. Also I choose instant speed ones so they are tutorable which is pretty important for when you have Emrakul in your hand.
While there may be sorcery versions of many of these cards that are stronger, I largely stuck to instants because of Kahos ability.
I run a lot of man lands and stones that can turn into creatures as they are usually preferred targets over Kaho, that way kaho can stick around with extra counters, also I am quite often am able to polymorph without even casting kaho, those are the amazing times that Emrakul comes out even sooner then turn 5. Also man lands provide protection to sacrifice cards such as the edict series and their relatives saving either Kaho, or Emrakul. And of course in a pinch you can use them to chump block and in incredibly rare occasions you can actually win the game just by mega control and pecking at people with them. On a related note I found slots for Control Magic and similar cards because not only are they wonderful on their own, they also give you food polymorph.
Tezzeret the Seeker and FabricateTransmute artifact allows for a cheap and semi tutorable way to search up proteus staff which is another wonderful polymorph tool as well as interesting utility to use against your opponents threats, and or to put a stolen Emrakul back into your deck.Theyalso can be used to search out swift foot boots or Elixir should they be needed and you already have your polymorph engine ready to go.I opted out of time walks as they are relatively high mana which causes them to usually end up as dead cards to me, and are usually too risky to play because should they get countered I'm all tapped out.
I'm running an excessive amount of mana rocks because the deck needs to function quickly because unlike your classic blue control it does not have many card advantage generating sources so while you can generally out control another control deck as you have so many slots dedicated to counters, you don't have enough card advantage to shut down aggro decks for very long or beat control in the long run. I have tried a slower paced control variant and It just did not feel nearly as strong because the longer the game goes on the less effective Emrakul will be, and of course who can argue that a fast combo is a bad thing. If you truly prefer a slower paced version of the deck mikel123 kami deck is better at that.
__________________
Slots:
Other cards I have considered and either took out or haven't gotten around to testing/couldent find things to take out for them:
1 Desertion
1 Recall
1 See Beyond
1 Reins of Power
1 Gather Specimens
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
1 Rhystic Study
1 Ray of Command
1 Turnabout
1 Wash Out
1 Bribery
1 Wash Out
1 Capsize
1 Envelop
1 Intervene
1 Rune Snag
1 Turn Aside
1 Turn About
1 Dispel
1 Rewind
1 Intuition
1 Exhaustion
1 Complicate
1 Envelope
1 Phyrexian Lens
1 Catalog
1 Echoing Truth
1 Temporal Mastery
1 Cancel
1 Careful Study
__________________
Bad Matchups:
The deck does pretty well against every other competitive deck, save gaddock teeg, that deck is a nightmare for this one, it can be beaten and the trick to it is either Kaho>Pongify and or searching up a Proteus staff via Kaho>mystical>Transmute Artifact. But it is tough. Other than that the deck struggles a little against decks with heavy spot control like evergreens Iname deck, but as long as you play cautious its perfectly manageable, me and evergreen have a fairly even match history, although I’ll admit he does have a few up on me right now but ill chalk that up to lately I have only played him in the dead of night when exhausted and very prone to making mistakes :P, after all 2 jobs and college does not leave you with much free time. (I generally update this thread from my phone while at work)
__________________
Epilogue/Looking to improve:
I truly feel that I have created a top tier deck, however I know there is room for improvement, I made this deck a long time ago, and I haven't really made any changes for quite some time other than briefly testing out a slower paced version. Rather than trying to keep my little masterpiece a secret any longer I have finally given in and am looking to improve it as it has needed an update for a while, as of late I have become interested in really getting into the competitive scene and getting recognized. I’m open to suggestions and what I'm looking for most is other instant speed win conditions that Kahoo could abuse as currently it’s either poly, or pray to win with an early Jace, or super control man land attack.
__________________
Change Log:
Since posting thread
+Everflowing chalice,-Chormantic Lantern
+Dissolve, -Cancel
+S-island, -Mox Diamond
+ Memory Lapse, -Condesend
+ Mizzium Skin, -Veil of Secrecy
+Delay, -Mage's Guile
+Spell Pierce, -Stifle
+swan song, -Trick Bind
+Sisland, -Dark Steel Ingot
+ 14 island, -14s-island.
+Transmute Artifact, -Tezzeret the Seeker
+Pongify, -Personal Tutor
+Thousand-Year Elixir, -Fabricate
+Remand, -Hinder
+Fact or Fiction, - Pulse of the Grid
+Guardian Idol, Eye of Ramos
+Arcane Denial, -Fact or Fiction
+Stifle, -Mass Polymorph
+Trickbind, -Dissipate
+Dispel, - Dissolve
+Essence Scatter, -Propganda
+Nullify, - Stoic Rebuttal
Decks:
Grenzo
Jalira
Talrasha's Doom
Lazav's not here
Eldrazi Bookkeeper
"I shall pass."
Doom Warden
Jalira
1) ouch... sorry? I recognize your name but I don't think we've crossed paths in a very long time, and I don't remember many specifics. I wouldn't object if you called me "impatient", which is certainly a fault I'd admit to succumbing to in most matches, but when you have a wife and two kids and somewhere in the neighborhood of 32 minutes a week to play MTG, you want to make the most of it.
2) not to be rude and unprofessional, but as far as posting quickly in response to the spotlight, you're almost a year late I think the OP was updated with the Kami deck in December 2012, and for whatever reason just hasn't been updated since.
3) give yourself more credit - our decks are entirely different. I think I first played vs. your Kaho deck while Emrakul was still banned; I have no idea what your win condition was then (maybe a Stroke of Genius or something), but I didn't think it was Polymorph the first time we played. I could be thinking of another Kaho deck/player though. The Kami deck wins more games with Stasis than it wins with Polymorph, for example, too. Just completely different strategies that happen to have color and a couple very niche cards in common. Heck, Polymorph in my deck wasn't even my idea... I think in my original thread, someone else mentions it in there (Virtus?).
Knowing when to Polymorph is probably my biggest weakness; I almost certainly err on the side of holding it back too much. And this is after 600+ games. I think if you're routinely trying to fetch it and cast it on turn 5, you're probably erring on the side of being too aggressive with it.
As far as feedback... first ask yourself if your deck is better than Talrand. For a monoblue deck, spending 4 mana in the main phase is really risky. As is waiting until later in the game against aggro to have some counter mana up. At least Talrand can come down and almost immediately have a half-dozen blockers. Your deck relies on playing Kaho and basically being able to block one creature one time in the span of two turns before it takes control.
More specific suggestions...
Eye of Ramos, Chromatic Lantern, and Chronatog Totem seem too slow. They don't help you get a turn 3 Kaho. I'd put in some two-mana stones in their place if you're hellbent on getting him down turn 3.
Are Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond really worth it? Somehow I think not. In Kami, there's two reasons to play them. One is because Kami helps you draw more cards than you know what to do with anyways. And two is because a turn 1 Kami on the play can be extremely strong against decks with mostly two-mana kill spells (i.e. black).
Mage's Guile and Veil of Secrecy seem out of place. Presumably there to protect Kaho, but if you're waiting until turn 6 to cast him, why not just play a 2-mana counterspell instead (Memory Lapse and Remand are notable absences from your deck, and Delay would be far better suited for your deck than Kami and probably should be in there). Heck, even Prohibit would seem to do most of what Veil of Secrecy does, while being far more versatile.
I think I realize why you don't play Daze, but I'd certainly try it if you haven't already. I'm also fairly happy with Disrupting Shoal, which may be worth a try in your deck.
Reweave should be played instead of Mass Polymorph; instant-speed at their EOT is fantastic for avoiding 99% of what can stop Emrakul.
I agree with you about memory lapse, and delay I will find room for them, totally spaced about them. I tried remand and it just felt like all those one cost lightning bolts and swords to the plowshares just ignore it. Also i tried prohibit but it just didnt hit enough things. As for disrupting shoal, i haven't tried it but i just might, i figured i wouldn't have the right cost card for the occasion but its worth a shot.
In my basics section I explained that I only play kaho early if I have a free counterspell like force in my hand, and by turn 5 with the 3 cost mana rocks I am able to play kaho safety. Mages guile and the other one are actually new additions as of today :D, The decks primary weakness is to spot control it helps a ton there.They protect kaho for the turn I summon him so on my upkeep i can combo. But i am still testing them.
We have crossed paths recently as well as in the past, the first time I was running blightsteel/ulamog instead of emrakul, you were fairly rude and impatient with me that time, but we made it through the one round and you promptly left before game 2, then I avoided you for awhile and finally ran into you shortly after emrakul came around...on turn 2 I misc-licked the wrong land and quickly put it back in my hand...you said a few derogatory things and immediately set me to ignore. Then I came across you again a month or so ago since the cockatrice server had been reset and moved to woogerworks so i was un-ignored. Then that time first few turns went ok, we realized we were playing nearly a mirror match, and were both entertained by it, and things were civil. Then you played stasis which I did not notice, I proceeded with my turn as normal, played a mana rock or something and then you said something derogatory and before I could apologize I was kicked and ignored yet again. That was 3 strikes plus hearing that you had done this to quite a few other people led to that disclaimer.
I am super surprised that you were the first to post, and did so in a very constructive and civil manner which I appreciate, although I hope you will read it in more detail, as i already run several things you suggested, and have answered certain parts of it in my explanations.
(Yea i know the spot light is fairly old, didn't realize that old thought it was only a few months, but I only noticed it was your deck after our most recent encounter)
I also have 2 jobs and college so when I get time to play Im dead tired and can be a little slow on my turns and noticing things and such...
Decks:
Grenzo
Jalira
Talrasha's Doom
Lazav's not here
Eldrazi Bookkeeper
"I shall pass."
Doom Warden
Jalira
It will even protect emmy on overload!
Decks:
Grenzo
Jalira
Talrasha's Doom
Lazav's not here
Eldrazi Bookkeeper
"I shall pass."
Doom Warden
Jalira
I would replace Chromatic Lantern or Darksteel Ingot for Everlowing Chalice. It comes out a turn earlier, and can be kicked multiple times to give you a huge mana rock when you're playing the waiting game versus a deck packing removal.
I would also re-work your counter suite. You're playing way too many 3 mana counters for a combo deck like this. 3 mana counters are also just generally bad in this format - they're too slow.
What you're missing:
-Spell Snare
-Spell Pierce
-Swan Song
-Remand
Other cuts:
Fabricate: what's up with this? Even if Proteus Staff is a combo piece, paying 9 mana for a polymorph is way too much. Your game plan is also super obvious with Fabricate. I also don't see the need for an extra tutor when Kamo tutors herself.
Trickbind / Stifle: You're not a tempo deck, and can't really take advantage of countering a fetchland search. I know why they're tempting to play, but you'll be much better off with just a reliable counter in these slots.
Propaganda: If you're having that hard a time against aggro decks, I would prefer Wash Out in this slot.
Other adds:
Tamiyo, the Moon Sage: I think this merits inclusion in every U deck. It's just an incredible win condition.
Lands: I think 37 is too low for this deck - I would play 40. You want to hit 6 lands minimum pretty much every game, and 37 is just too low to do that reliably.
I am runing Chalice :D, made that exact switch about an hour ago, it used to be in the deck, but I lost my mana rock list when I accidentally saved over it with my slower control variant.
I have no clue what happened to my spell peirce it used to be in there, adding back!
Swan song is genius, its in!
Tried snare didnt like it.
Remand...sigh everyone keeps recommending it, Ill have to give it another try, still dont like it.
Fabricate absolutely can not be cut, it is often an essential win card against gaddock teeg my worst match up.
I put in stifle/trickbind to save me from cards such as Umezawa's Jitte, with the fetch lands as a secondary, But you are probaly right.
I like propaganda :(, I have considered wash out but not over prop.
As amazing as tamyio is I just dont think she fits here, but if i find an extra spot ill give her another try, she certainly wont replace jace :P.
The only thing I can really cut for for lands are mana rocks :(, i might drop another rock, maybe two, but I dont think ill make it to 40.
Thank you again for your suggestions.
Decks:
Grenzo
Jalira
Talrasha's Doom
Lazav's not here
Eldrazi Bookkeeper
"I shall pass."
Doom Warden
Jalira
I don't say derogatory things. Ever. If I don't want to play you, I don't play you. If I want to leave after our first game, I will do so. We are under no obligation to each other to play a best 2-out-of-3 set... especially in a format with no sb. And there is ZERO chance I left a game because you misclicked the wrong land.
I don't recall when the Woogerworks move was, but it had to have been a while ago... I've not played more than 20 games of MTG in 2013.
As for constructively responding to your post... I have relatively thick skin. I'm here because I like deckbuilding and sharing MTG ideas. I don't hold grudges. It's truly a waste of time.
Back to the topic at hand... sorry I missed seeing Reweave in there. Your rationale for the 3-mana rocks makes sense I guess. Isn't there a 3cc rock that gains you 1 life each time you use it? That might be better than Chromatic Lantern in 99% of games outside of Contamination.
Remand is amazing. Yes, it's not great for trying to stop a Swords to Plowshares, but it's outrageously good for anything that costs more than 2 mana. I also take extreme pleasure in Remand-ing commanders, since it kind of nullifies the card advantage of being able to cast the commander outside of your hand (at least in my deck, in which my opponent is often at 7+ cards and must discard). I think behind FoW, it's the most commonly played blue card in top tecks. May not be great for your turn 4/5 Kaho plan, but if you're forced into a more control route in a game, it's great.
Control Magic seems weak. Too many decks can deal with it and leave you with card disadvantage.
Minamo is cute with Kaho, but how many games do you lose because it gets Wasteland-ed, Dust Bowl-ed, or from Blood Moon, etc.? If you're only ever fetching one card with Kaho, there's little sense in untapping him.
Nailed it with the lands, good idea, I have made the change.
Cute with kajo yea...but main reason it's there is to untapp in a perma tap situation like tamyio.
Decks:
Grenzo
Jalira
Talrasha's Doom
Lazav's not here
Eldrazi Bookkeeper
"I shall pass."
Doom Warden
Jalira
Cuts:
-Mass Polymorph: Why is this in? A 6 mana sorcery is just way too vulnerable to combo off with. You have Polymorph to tutor for first, and then Reweave. If you're forced to tutor for Mass Polymorph, you've almost certainly lost by this point.
-Pulse of the Grid: I get it's a way to shuffle Emrakul back in, but is this worth it? You already have Frantic Search and Thirst For Knowledge to tutor for with Kaho.
-Tezzeret, the Seeker: 5 mana to tutor for Proteus Staff just seems to weak. You play no creatures, so Tezzeret will almost 100% die the turn after he's played, making him a weak source of card advantage. I don't think you're this much in need of another tutor for Proteus Staff.
-Fabricate: I think playing this card just to beat Teeg is a mistake. (1) Because Teeg sees little play, and (2) There are better ways to beat Teeg (which I'll suggest below).
Adds:
-Thousand-Year Elixir: This card dramatically changes how your game plan progresses, letting you tap out for Kaho on turn 5, with her able to protect herself with Swan Song. If you have more mana, it becomes even harder to kill her, as another 2 mana lets her untap and play Mizzium Skin or Spell Pierce to protect her a second time.
-Fact or Fiction: Even if you're playing combo, this is one of the top 5 blue spells; a clear upgrade over Pulse.
-Pongify: A much better spell for dealing with Teeg. Also tutorable with Kaho, and another out for dealing with Zur.
-Spell Snare: Probably 60% of the most powerful spells in this format are at 2 CMC. I know this is an annoying card to have when they're playing their 6 mana bomb, but this will guaranteed win you more games than it loses (especially because its another cheap out to enemy countermagic).
I still really like tez because he puts proteus staff strait onto the field.
But I suppose fabricate can go in favor of an add.
Pognify is a solid idea I will find room for it
I will try out fact or fiction over pulse, but I am not completly sold
I like the idea of elixir I'll give it a try, I had it in deck a lOng time ago, but didnt have things like Sean song to use it with so it got cut, but now that I am getting all these on mana in it makes alot o since.
Sigh spell snare...blaargh what would I switch it for.
Decks:
Grenzo
Jalira
Talrasha's Doom
Lazav's not here
Eldrazi Bookkeeper
"I shall pass."
Doom Warden
Jalira
Decks:
Grenzo
Jalira
Talrasha's Doom
Lazav's not here
Eldrazi Bookkeeper
"I shall pass."
Doom Warden
Jalira
Though I should emphasize I don't think additional tutors are necessary in a deck where your general is a 1 card combo. I much prefer adding resiliency, simply because time is a scarce luxury in this format - most decks won't give you the space necessary to attempt the combo multiple times.
On that note: how good has Personal Tutor been?
Decks:
Grenzo
Jalira
Talrasha's Doom
Lazav's not here
Eldrazi Bookkeeper
"I shall pass."
Doom Warden
Jalira
Decks:
Grenzo
Jalira
Talrasha's Doom
Lazav's not here
Eldrazi Bookkeeper
"I shall pass."
Doom Warden
Jalira
You need to be able to target the general with Polymorph effects. Swiftfoot Boots gives hexproof, whereas Lightning Greaves gives shroud (which stops Polymorph).
Decks:
Grenzo
Jalira
Talrasha's Doom
Lazav's not here
Eldrazi Bookkeeper
"I shall pass."
Doom Warden
Jalira
Decks:
Grenzo
Jalira
Talrasha's Doom
Lazav's not here
Eldrazi Bookkeeper
"I shall pass."
Doom Warden
Jalira
Still, have you tested if a normal Talrand deck is just plain better?
As for running a poly morph engine in Talrand I have tried that out, I think it is better then classic tal but not as good as kaho variant.
Decks:
Grenzo
Jalira
Talrasha's Doom
Lazav's not here
Eldrazi Bookkeeper
"I shall pass."
Doom Warden
Jalira