Well, I have a few friends already proxying up the Grixus legend so I guess I might dabble a bit in the Jund. I currently have a GB death based deck build around Varolz and I was looking at the possibility of going to Jund here with the fact that Prossh is a sac outlet and also builds in a fun token optional build. I dont know what my intentions are so far but I figured I would push together a list for kicks.
I'm guessing I already know the answer to this question, but are you avoiding Food Chain and Mana Echoes combos?
I've always found Sprouting Thrinax to be useful in Jund "sacrifice matters" builds. He gives you a lot of bodies to feed things for not a whole lot of mana.
I'm guessing I already know the answer to this question, but are you avoiding Food Chain and Mana Echoes combos?
Nope, purposely passing on those. There are already several combos with Kiki + conscripts and Ashnod's Alter + Nim Deathmantle (not with commander obviously).
I generally don't build with combo as my objective. For the most part Food Chain is worse than both of the alters outside of combo shinanigans.
I've always found Sprouting Thrinax to be useful in Jund "sacrifice matters" builds. He gives you a lot of bodies to feed things for not a whole lot of mana.
Its an interesting suggestion. I guess in general I am not sure how much each sacrifice trigger itself really matters to me. I could see some great potential off of the mana producing sac outlets but I have a harder time seeing myself make it worthwhile if I am just dropping it through bombardment.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Yeah bro this is more the way I plan on taking prossh I don't want to be com king to much but your list looks strong it's actually close to my Kresh deck I just finished which will be 100% replacing kresh! Ill look at the list a little more later but I'm running seedborn muse which is pretty nice. And worldspine wurm is fun to with survival forgot to mention no mercy
I have been working on a more combo oriented list, but beastmaster ascension is rather horrifying in this deck. The first cast and swing of Prossh will activate it giving you 40 power worth of attackers
I've always had a soft spot for massacre wurm and mimic vat in these types of decks but we have a few token strategies at our shop! I'm curious how seed guide ash works with the vat I really like that ash guy I never seen him before
Akroma's Memorial - Give relevant protection and abilities, most importantly haste. Alternately you could run some other effect that gives haste to your board for less mana like Fires of Yavimaya etc.
Kher Keep - More tokens. At the very least they are chump blockers and clamp fodder.
It That Betrays - I like the synergy of sac'ing tokens and making your opponent sac stuff as well. It That Betrays plays pretty nicely with that.
Garruk, Caller of Beats - Almost 1/3 of your deck is creatures so this seems like a worthwhile investment.
I'm really interested in seeing how this comes out, keep us updated!
Akroma's Memorial - Give relevant protection and abilities, most importantly haste. Alternately you could run some other effect that gives haste to your board for less mana like Fires of Yavimaya etc.
Kher Keep - More tokens. At the very least they are chump blockers and clamp fodder.
It That Betrays - I like the synergy of sac'ing tokens and making your opponent sac stuff as well. It That Betrays plays pretty nicely with that.
Garruk, Caller of Beats - Almost 1/3 of your deck is creatures so this seems like a worthwhile investment.
I'm really interested in seeing how this comes out, keep us updated!
Also something I meant to suggest but forgot to Death Cloud. You'll generally have more permanents than anyone else so it disproportionately wipes out your opponents.
I'll be honest - I've never been a huge fan of Attrition. In a B-heavy meta, there's often a lot it can't hit (not even including things with shroud or hexproof to boot), and it's a nonbo with Grave Pact out.
I'm probably here, but I like Mind Slash as an alternative. It has the exact same costs (although you are losing instant speed activation), but the ability to shred the combo players' hands I often find more valuable than being able to Doom Blade things.
I'll be honest - I've never been a huge fan of Attrition. In a B-heavy meta, there's often a lot it can't hit (not even including things with shroud or hexproof to boot), and it's a nonbo with Grave Pact out.
I'm probably here, but I like Mind Slash as an alternative. It has the exact same costs (although you are losing instant speed activation), but the ability to shred the combo players' hands I often find more valuable than being able to Doom Blade things.
I totally agree that Mind Slash > Attrition, although both are good cards. But Bismuth has a good point that a lot of the most dangerous threats are immune to black spot removal that says "destroy."
I have been working on a more combo oriented list, but beastmaster ascension is rather horrifying in this deck. The first cast and swing of Prossh will activate it giving you 40 power worth of attackers
Craterhoof Behemoth will likely yield better consistent results than the beastmaster. Tutoring for creatures is easier and generally speaking by the time you have enough guys to use these sort of things the mana cost shouldn't be an issue.
Craterhoof is just really high on my annoyance cards because I think hes really lame but thats just why he isn't in my own list.
I've always had a soft spot for massacre wurm and mimic vat in these types of decks but we have a few token strategies at our shop! I'm curious how seed guide ash works with the vat I really like that ash guy I never seen him before
Massacre Wurm - I have had too many situational not so great times with him. I think he is amazing when you blow someone out of a game but its just been too situational when I get those sort of effects from him in general. I don't like holding onto him all game to end up not being able to use him (its happened several times for me).
Mimic Vat - I like it in a sac based deck but in my Varolz deck its been sort of clunky so far. Its mostly been just a worse Nim Deathmantle for me all in all so far.
Akroma's Memorial - Give relevant protection and abilities, most importantly haste. Alternately you could run some other effect that gives haste to your board for less mana like Fires of Yavimaya etc.
Kher Keep - More tokens. At the very least they are chump blockers and clamp fodder.
It That Betrays - I like the synergy of sac'ing tokens and making your opponent sac stuff as well. It That Betrays plays pretty nicely with that.
Garruk, Caller of Beats - Almost 1/3 of your deck is creatures so this seems like a worthwhile investment.
I'm really interested in seeing how this comes out, keep us updated!
Rohgahh of Kher Keep - too much of a flavor add in my opinion. I would be far better off with just a Coat of Arms or a different anthem.
Beastmaster Ascension I would be better off with Craterhoof Behemoth if thats the direction I wanted to go.
Akroma's Memorial Haste isnt that big of a focus in this deck and thats what I primarily look at with Memorial. My group also plays a lot of attrition style decks so its hard to stick such an obvious threat. Plus I dont really get that much out of it in this deck vs a lot of other decks. Generally speaking I like to look at this card when pushing hard on haste.
Kher Keep oh it will be in there. I just havent filled in the landbase.
It That Betrays it doesnt really have any synergy with what I am doing at the moment other than the fact that it has annihilate and will steal what it annihilates. If I wanted to go the eldrazi route I would likely be pushing a lot harder on haste outlets too but I think it would take a rather sizeable package of cards to go that direction.
Garruk, Caller of Beasts - its not even close to high enough to yield any sort of serious card draw. On average at 30 creatures in a list it hits 1.5 cards per activation. His -3 is junk and his +1 just doesnt yield enough results. He costs a ton to drop and then I have to defend him. I dont like it.
Blade of the Bloodchief its an interesting effect and I have actually been thinking of trying to push a third equipment just to give Godo some versatility. Beyond that though I have to say I feel like its too easily disrupted. Generally I didnt design the deck as I was building it with a focus on trying to one shot my opponents. I built in more with a control orientation to try to establish board state and remove my opponents if possible. Due to the direction I am going I think I would be a lot more likely to go with something more like a Sword of Fire and Ice or possibly something lifegain based as an additional equipment. Mortapod might end up being something I need to play with too though but my concern there is that Barrage of Expendables is a thing and other than needing a red mana specifically for it, it costs less to use and can chain together at instant speed.
Didn't even know about that card. Strictly better than Rohgahh except it can't swing for five in a pinch, but it has no upkeep.
Also something I meant to suggest but forgot to Death Cloud. You'll generally have more permanents than anyone else so it disproportionately wipes out your opponents.
Death Cloud - I actually willingly left it out. I recently removed it from my Varolz deck because its really just always more brutal than Obliterate if it resolves. I ended up always having way more lands than opponents so it was like clear their hands and board and sit behind 6-10 lands afterwards for myself. Its REALLY good, I just decided it wasn't for me. It really is a mass LD effect but even better because it isn't fair in how its used.
I'll be honest - I've never been a huge fan of Attrition. In a B-heavy meta, there's often a lot it can't hit (not even including things with shroud or hexproof to boot), and it's a nonbo with Grave Pact out.
I'm probably here, but I like Mind Slash as an alternative. It has the exact same costs (although you are losing instant speed activation), but the ability to shred the combo players' hands I often find more valuable than being able to Doom Blade things.
Actually, I think I need to agree with you. I always have a hard time with Attrition as well and I never get around to running the slash so I suppose I will give it a shot this time.
Blade of the Bloodchief its an interesting effect and I have actually been thinking of trying to push a third equipment just to give Godo some versatility. Beyond that though I have to say I feel like its too easily disrupted. Generally I didnt design the deck as I was building it with a focus on trying to one shot my opponents. I built in more with a control orientation to try to establish board state and remove my opponents if possible. Due to the direction I am going I think I would be a lot more likely to go with something more like a Sword of Fire and Ice or possibly something lifegain based as an additional equipment.
I just realized that I forgot to add Helm of Possession to the list. Being that it is a sacrifice based deck its probably something I want to make room for...
Jitte - I like the equipment but a lot more in a voltron deck or a deck designed to have multiple combat phases.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
What about Vicious Shadows? With critters dieing left and right, this may do a ton of damage.
It was in the deck but I ended up cutting it before posting it because its not entirely token based. I felt like Warp World and Insurrection had better impact and I didn't entirely want to cram too many high mana variations of this type of effect in the deck.
I could possibly add it in place of like Kokusho though but it depends on how much I want to push for the kill vs just play sort of a control sac based deck. I just felt that of the cards I was looking at it didn't entirely fit the deck as I am not pushing super hard on tokens.
Its likely though that I should just consider adding Craterhoof Behemoth over it though. I super don't like that card though (for reasons of it being lame).
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
It was in the deck but I ended up cutting it before posting it because its not entirely token based. I felt like Warp World and Insurrection had better impact and I didn't entirely want to cram too many high mana variations of this type of effect in the deck.
I could possibly add it in place of like Kokusho though but it depends on how much I want to push for the kill vs just play sort of a control sac based deck. I just felt that of the cards I was looking at it didn't entirely fit the deck as I am not pushing super hard on tokens.
Its likely though that I should just consider adding Craterhoof Behemoth over it though. I super don't like that card though (for reasons of it being lame).
Out of curiosity, what is it about Craterhoof that brings the lameness? Just personal taste or some other reason?
Out of curiosity, what is it about Craterhoof that brings the lameness? Just personal taste or some other reason?
Its generally what I loose to a lot. It annoys me because it often comes out of nowhere with just a few non threatening guys sitting arround then suddenly someone is smashing for lethal on everyone or possibly just me.
I just feel like it is too easy to do. Its probably easier to set up craterhoof than palenchron combo in most decks. Green is really good at tutoring for creatures and I see a regular token presence in my meta.
TLDR - personal annoyance.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Its generally what I loose to a lot. It annoys me because it often comes out of nowhere with just a few non threatening guys sitting arround then suddenly someone is smashing for lethal on everyone or possibly just me.
I just feel like it is too easy to do. Its probably easier to set up craterhoof than palenchron combo in most decks. Green is really good at tutoring for creatures and I see a regular token presence in my meta.
TLDR - personal annoyance.
I agree with this. I only run him in one deck, and that's my single "cutthroat" deck I keep around, which happens to be Riku. Riku, a couple of dorks, and a Sneak Attack can quickly turn into "Ummm, attack for 80? TRAMPLE?".
I think that even without a heavy token theme vicious shadows deserves a slot. Any deck that abuses sac effects makes great use of this card. Although a wise man once said " vicious shadows wins games, not friends". It is possibly the single strongest enchantment red has to offer.
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"Fair? At what point in our negotiations did you convince yourself my goal was to be fair?"
I think that even without a heavy token theme vicious shadows deserves a slot. Any deck that abuses sac effects makes great use of this card. Although a wise man once said " vicious shadows wins games, not friends". It is possibly the single strongest enchantment red has to offer.
It also has defensive uses against board wipes and other removal, as well as political uses.
I don't see Sadistic Hypnotist in a list. It's strictly better than Attrition (2 for 1), easier to tutor for and always a sac fodder for Prossh.
That's not what "strictly better" means. Sol Ring is strictly better than Worn Powerstone. Mind Twist is strictly better than Mind Shatter. There are very few cards that actually fit the criteria.
Sadistic Hypnotist is a great card and should probably be in here though if the goal is highest win ratio possible, but there are things Attrition can do that it can't, such as dealing with things on the board, killing Commanders, and disrupting the tempo of opponents (since they have wasted mana on whatever you kill, as opposed to just having to discard it). It's also cheaper to cast, more durable, and can be used at instant speed.
Ups, I meant Mind Slash not Attrition. Same cost different functions. In this case Hypnotist seems strictly better than M.Slash - no activation cost and 2 for 1. Sure, Mind Slash lets you choose a card which can be important if an opp drew 20+ with Sphinx and you don't have so many tokens to make him discard all but this is situation a Mindslicer is for.
Again, not the definition of "strictly better". "Strictly better" is when two cards are otherwise identical but one has an extra downside (or upside) the other does not (Wrath of God is strictly better than Day of Judgment, for example, or any of Giogante's examples). Mind Slash is harder to remove, comes down two turns earlier, and lets you cherry-pick cards out of your opponents' hands. I'm not saying Sadistic Hypnotist is a bad card - it's a great card in fact, but it fills different niche than Mind Slash.
1 Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
CREATURES (27)
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Farhaven Elf
1 Fierce Empath
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Goblin Matron
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Wood Elves
1 Anger
1 Dimir House Guard
1 Disciple of Bolas
1 Falkenrath Aristocrat
1 Mindslicer
1 Olivia Voldaren
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Acidic Slime
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Puppeteer Clique
1 Seedguide Ash
1 Zealous Conscripts
1 Godo, Bandit Warlord
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Molten Primordial
1 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Sylvan Primordial
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Skullclamp
1 Sol Ring
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Nim Deathmantle
1 Ashnod's Altar
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Phyrexian Altar
1 Birthing Pod
ENCHANTMENT (10)
1 Goblin Bombardment
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Sylvan Library
1 Mind Slash
1 Necromancy
1 Necropotence
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Grave Pact
1 Greater Good
INSTANT (7)
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Beast Within
1 Chaos Warp
1 Chord of Calling
1 Corpse Dance
1 Momentous Fall
1 Tears of Rage
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Living Death
1 Insurrection
1 Warp World
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[Modern] Allies
I've always found Sprouting Thrinax to be useful in Jund "sacrifice matters" builds. He gives you a lot of bodies to feed things for not a whole lot of mana.
stuff
Nope, purposely passing on those. There are already several combos with Kiki + conscripts and Ashnod's Alter + Nim Deathmantle (not with commander obviously).
I generally don't build with combo as my objective. For the most part Food Chain is worse than both of the alters outside of combo shinanigans.
Its an interesting suggestion. I guess in general I am not sure how much each sacrifice trigger itself really matters to me. I could see some great potential off of the mana producing sac outlets but I have a harder time seeing myself make it worthwhile if I am just dropping it through bombardment.
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[Modern] Allies
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB
Rohgahh of Kher Keep - I like the idea of running him because he immediately makes the tokens on the board more threatening.
Beastmaster Ascension - Similar to above.
Akroma's Memorial - Give relevant protection and abilities, most importantly haste. Alternately you could run some other effect that gives haste to your board for less mana like Fires of Yavimaya etc.
Kher Keep - More tokens. At the very least they are chump blockers and clamp fodder.
It That Betrays - I like the synergy of sac'ing tokens and making your opponent sac stuff as well. It That Betrays plays pretty nicely with that.
Garruk, Caller of Beats - Almost 1/3 of your deck is creatures so this seems like a worthwhile investment.
I'm really interested in seeing how this comes out, keep us updated!
Kamahl, Fist of Krosa | Korlash, Heir to Blackblade | Karador Apostles | Brago, King Eternal | Talrand the Sky Summoner | Mageta the Lion
You might as well just run Muraganda Petroglyphs, unless it's for flavor reasons.
ISB, have you considered Blade of the Bloodchief? It turns Prossh, Skyraider of Kher into a 1HKO once you start paying Commander tax, and it has a nice synergy with Olivia Voldaren and Falkenrath Aristocrat, as well as all the ways you have of killing things.
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths
Also something I meant to suggest but forgot to Death Cloud. You'll generally have more permanents than anyone else so it disproportionately wipes out your opponents.
Kamahl, Fist of Krosa | Korlash, Heir to Blackblade | Karador Apostles | Brago, King Eternal | Talrand the Sky Summoner | Mageta the Lion
I'm probably here, but I like Mind Slash as an alternative. It has the exact same costs (although you are losing instant speed activation), but the ability to shred the combo players' hands I often find more valuable than being able to Doom Blade things.
stuff
I totally agree that Mind Slash > Attrition, although both are good cards. But Bismuth has a good point that a lot of the most dangerous threats are immune to black spot removal that says "destroy."
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths
Craterhoof Behemoth will likely yield better consistent results than the beastmaster. Tutoring for creatures is easier and generally speaking by the time you have enough guys to use these sort of things the mana cost shouldn't be an issue.
Craterhoof is just really high on my annoyance cards because I think hes really lame but thats just why he isn't in my own list.
Massacre Wurm - I have had too many situational not so great times with him. I think he is amazing when you blow someone out of a game but its just been too situational when I get those sort of effects from him in general. I don't like holding onto him all game to end up not being able to use him (its happened several times for me).
Mimic Vat - I like it in a sac based deck but in my Varolz deck its been sort of clunky so far. Its mostly been just a worse Nim Deathmantle for me all in all so far.
Rohgahh of Kher Keep - too much of a flavor add in my opinion. I would be far better off with just a Coat of Arms or a different anthem.
Beastmaster Ascension I would be better off with Craterhoof Behemoth if thats the direction I wanted to go.
Akroma's Memorial Haste isnt that big of a focus in this deck and thats what I primarily look at with Memorial. My group also plays a lot of attrition style decks so its hard to stick such an obvious threat. Plus I dont really get that much out of it in this deck vs a lot of other decks. Generally speaking I like to look at this card when pushing hard on haste.
Kher Keep oh it will be in there. I just havent filled in the landbase.
It That Betrays it doesnt really have any synergy with what I am doing at the moment other than the fact that it has annihilate and will steal what it annihilates. If I wanted to go the eldrazi route I would likely be pushing a lot harder on haste outlets too but I think it would take a rather sizeable package of cards to go that direction.
Garruk, Caller of Beasts - its not even close to high enough to yield any sort of serious card draw. On average at 30 creatures in a list it hits 1.5 cards per activation. His -3 is junk and his +1 just doesnt yield enough results. He costs a ton to drop and then I have to defend him. I dont like it.
Blade of the Bloodchief its an interesting effect and I have actually been thinking of trying to push a third equipment just to give Godo some versatility. Beyond that though I have to say I feel like its too easily disrupted. Generally I didnt design the deck as I was building it with a focus on trying to one shot my opponents. I built in more with a control orientation to try to establish board state and remove my opponents if possible. Due to the direction I am going I think I would be a lot more likely to go with something more like a Sword of Fire and Ice or possibly something lifegain based as an additional equipment. Mortapod might end up being something I need to play with too though but my concern there is that Barrage of Expendables is a thing and other than needing a red mana specifically for it, it costs less to use and can chain together at instant speed.
Death Cloud - I actually willingly left it out. I recently removed it from my Varolz deck because its really just always more brutal than Obliterate if it resolves. I ended up always having way more lands than opponents so it was like clear their hands and board and sit behind 6-10 lands afterwards for myself. Its REALLY good, I just decided it wasn't for me. It really is a mass LD effect but even better because it isn't fair in how its used.
Actually, I think I need to agree with you. I always have a hard time with Attrition as well and I never get around to running the slash so I suppose I will give it a shot this time.
Attrition -> Mind Slash and done.
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[Modern] Allies
Kamahl, Fist of Krosa | Korlash, Heir to Blackblade | Karador Apostles | Brago, King Eternal | Talrand the Sky Summoner | Mageta the Lion
Jitte - I like the equipment but a lot more in a voltron deck or a deck designed to have multiple combat phases.
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[Modern] Allies
This might not be too bad of an idea. You can get six triggers off the bat with Prossh, and your curve doesn't look too high at the moment.
stuff
It was in the deck but I ended up cutting it before posting it because its not entirely token based. I felt like Warp World and Insurrection had better impact and I didn't entirely want to cram too many high mana variations of this type of effect in the deck.
I could possibly add it in place of like Kokusho though but it depends on how much I want to push for the kill vs just play sort of a control sac based deck. I just felt that of the cards I was looking at it didn't entirely fit the deck as I am not pushing super hard on tokens.
Its likely though that I should just consider adding Craterhoof Behemoth over it though. I super don't like that card though (for reasons of it being lame).
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[Modern] Allies
Kamahl, Fist of Krosa | Korlash, Heir to Blackblade | Karador Apostles | Brago, King Eternal | Talrand the Sky Summoner | Mageta the Lion
Its generally what I loose to a lot. It annoys me because it often comes out of nowhere with just a few non threatening guys sitting arround then suddenly someone is smashing for lethal on everyone or possibly just me.
I just feel like it is too easy to do. Its probably easier to set up craterhoof than palenchron combo in most decks. Green is really good at tutoring for creatures and I see a regular token presence in my meta.
TLDR - personal annoyance.
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[Modern] Allies
I agree with this. I only run him in one deck, and that's my single "cutthroat" deck I keep around, which happens to be Riku. Riku, a couple of dorks, and a Sneak Attack can quickly turn into "Ummm, attack for 80? TRAMPLE?".
stuff
WGSaffi EriksdotterGW
UBGThe MimeoplasmGBU
It also has defensive uses against board wipes and other removal, as well as political uses.
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths
That's not what "strictly better" means. Sol Ring is strictly better than Worn Powerstone. Mind Twist is strictly better than Mind Shatter. There are very few cards that actually fit the criteria.
Sadistic Hypnotist is a great card and should probably be in here though if the goal is highest win ratio possible, but there are things Attrition can do that it can't, such as dealing with things on the board, killing Commanders, and disrupting the tempo of opponents (since they have wasted mana on whatever you kill, as opposed to just having to discard it). It's also cheaper to cast, more durable, and can be used at instant speed.
Mono Red's Strengths and Mono White's Strengths
Again, not the definition of "strictly better". "Strictly better" is when two cards are otherwise identical but one has an extra downside (or upside) the other does not (Wrath of God is strictly better than Day of Judgment, for example, or any of Giogante's examples). Mind Slash is harder to remove, comes down two turns earlier, and lets you cherry-pick cards out of your opponents' hands. I'm not saying Sadistic Hypnotist is a bad card - it's a great card in fact, but it fills different niche than Mind Slash.
stuff
-Arel the Whisperer