(*) denotes foil version needed - if you have one for trade feel free to PM me
This list originally started out with Jenara as General. I switched over to Rafiq after being attracted by its superior damage potential. From there I tried various builds:voltron Rafiq, infect Rafiq, and control/combo Rafiq. Both voltron and infect Rafiq were extremely fast but almost always ran out of steam. 1-2 players would die but the rest of the table remained. Too many resources were dedicated to acceleration and late in games being stuck in top-deck mode happened all too often. Combo Rafiq had too many dead cards. Few combo cards could stand on their own. The Lark combo for example, was good. But with insufficient tutors it was inconsistent and I hated drawing Mirror Entity. So I discarded it. Next I tried Temporal Manipulation, Capture of Jingzhou, and Time Warp. And upon trying them, I realized they obsoleted Finest Hour, Sovereigns of Lost Alara, and combat damage. However when all my opponents were assembling 2-card combos, assembling our 3-card combo and going infinite was a losing proposition. So from there this current ETB/aggro/control build evolved. Its focus is ETB and disrupting opponents. The heavy creature base puts enough blockers in play to slow down aggro decks while generating card/resource advantage. It can take out the table by forcing a concession from opponents by destroying/bouncing all their noncreature pemanents. And it puts up a lot of road blocks against combo decks. While I believe this incarnation is superior to prior versions, it does not win all or even a majority of its games. Much credit goes to ISBPathfinder for inspiring this list.
Mathematics of EDH
Good resource for figuring out the odds of getting what you want to see.
How the deck operates:
Ramp, draw, and tutor your way out to a fast start. Mystic Remora is the best card advantage engine ever printed against creature light lists. Getting it online and being able to accelerate our mana base to maintain Mystic Remora, or reset it with Venser the Sojourner, is key. Skullclamp was a previous focus of this list but while it's still good I've found it to be slower than Mystic Remora. Ramping and setting up an early draw engine is very important. We're hoping to buy enough time to combo out and take the game around turns 6-8. Throwing a wrench into our opponents plans is a large part of our game plan. Aven Mindcensor, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Linvala, Elesh Norn, and Hokori are very good at slowing opponents down. Probably the largest problem we face is if we're operating from behind. We're light in mass removal and don't have many tutors to get to Oblivion Stone.
Combos:
/*1. (Venser or Deadeye Navigator) + (Eternal Witness) + (Temporal Manipulation)
2. ((Sun Titan + Skullclamp) or Jace TMS or (Mimic Vat + (Skullclamp or High Market or Natural Order or Birthing Pod)) + (Eternal Witness) + (Temporal Manipulation)*/
3. Palinchron + Phantasmal Image
4. Palinchron + Deadeye Navigator + (ETB creature)
5. Survival of the Fittest: pitch Deadeye Navigator, Palinchron, and Venser/Terastodon getting Karmic Guide. Cast Karmic Guide. Bring back Deadeye Navigator. Bond with Karmic Guide. Blink Karmic Guide. Bring back Palinchron. Bond with Palinchron. Go infinite with Deadeye and Palinchron. Bond Venser, bounce opponents permanents. Requires 7 mana to cast Karmic Guide and blink Deadeye after we setup the turn before by casting Survival and loading the graveyard as stated. Conceivably all could be done in one turn for 13 mana but this is unlikely.
/*6. Tooth and Nail: Entwine and get Fierce Empath and Palinchron. Untap 7 land, search for Deadeye Navigator. Cast Deadeye. Bond with Palinchron. Go infinite mana. Bond with Empath and get Terastodon. Cast and bond with Terastodon. Force concession with Terastodon by nuking all nonland permanents. Requires 10 mana, 7 of which must be lands, to go off within the same turn*/
---------------------------
Card choice commentary
Utility Lands:
Cavern of Souls - Human
High Market - Works with Skullclamp. Protects against exile, tuck, and theft
Mana: 16
1x Chrome Mox - Mana rock
1x Lotus Petal - Mana acceleration
1x Mana Crypt - This is an auto include. Allows for first turn ramp critter
1x Mox Diamond - Mana rock
1x Avacyn's Pilgrim - Clampable mana dork
1x Birds of Paradise - Clampable mana dork
1x Carpet of Flowers - Mana acceleration and fixing
1x Mana Vault - Mana rock
1x Noble Hierarch - Clampable, exalted mana dork. Helpful fixing color screw early or recovering from mass LD
1x Sol Ring - Mana rock
1x Weathered Wayfarer - Land fixing
1x Bloom Tender - Clampable, mana dork
1x Lotus Cobra - Mana acceleration
1x Wood Elves - Ramp
1x Oracle of Mul Daya - Ramp
1x Prophet of Kruphix - Broken
Draw: 12
1x Mystic Remora - Draw engine
1x Sensei's Divining Top - Card filter
1x Skullclamp - Draw engine. 11 creatures to clamp directly, 30 total
1x Coiling Oracle - Clampable card advantage/Ramp
1x Elvish Visionary - Clampable card advantage
1x Sylvan Library - One of my problems is I can't stop drawing extra cards with this thing
1x Rhystic Study - Draw engine
1x Sword of Fire and Ice - Draw and board control
1x Timetwister - Draw
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor - Card advantage, value, bounce
1x Masked Admirers - Card advantage engine with Survival
1x Consecrated Sphinx - Draw engine
Tutors: 13
1x Green Sun's Zenith - Brings in Bane of Progress, Bloom Tender, or Fierce Empath
1x Eladamri's Call - Creature tutor. With no pressing threats and enough land, get Fierce Empath to combo off
1x Stoneforge Mystic - Equipment tutor. Always get Skullclamp if there is a clampable creature to abuse. Otherwise get SoFaF or SaFaI
1x Survival of the Fittest - Creature toolbox and combo. In an opening hand use it to get ramp/draw creatures as needed. Priority early on is making sure every land drop hits for the first 4 turns. After 7 lands are out we can combo out with Deadeye combo (combo#5: Karmic Guide getting Deadeye, getting Palinchron, then going infinite and getting Terastodon/Venser).
1x Chord of Calling - Instant speed creature tutor. Preferred targets are: Stoneforge Mystic for Skullclamp (card draw), Phantasmal Image or Palinchron (for infinite mana), Aven Mindcensor, Venser Shaper Savant, or Fierce Empath for Deadeye Navigator (to start our combo chain below)
1x Fierce Empath - Clampable and can get Deadeye and the rest of our combo chain (Palinchron, Terastodon). Does require 18 mana to go off all in one turn. Split between 2 turns the cost is 9 mana.
1x Idyllic Tutor - Get to Survival
1x Trinket Mage - Skullclamp or Mana rock. Almost always get Skullclamp.
1x Wargate - Tutor, its use is much the same with Chord of Calling but can also get O Stone, Survival, or answers. It's a really flexible tutor. If we have a creature in hand we can get Survival. Or if we have clampable creatures in play we could get Stoneforge for Skullclamp. Or we can get Fierce Empath for Deadeye.
1x Birthing Pod - Allows access to our creature toolbox. Key creatures to get to are Glen Elendra Archmage for counter cover, graveyard abuse guys, and Deadeye. The great thing about persist is we can use Glen Elendra twice.
1x Natural Order - Get Prime Speaker Zegana, Bane of Progress, Fierce Empath, or Sigarda
1x Bribery - Get a gamebreaker
1x Tezzeret the Seeker - Value
Removal: 8
1x Sword to Plowshares - Removal
1x Cyclonic Rift - Buys time
1x Gilded Drake - Incredibly efficient card - control magic for 2
1x Beast Within - Removal
1x Oblivion Stone - Removal
1x Bane of Progress - Removal
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite - Removal
1x Terastodon - Removal, combo piece
Graveyard Recursion: 5
1x Noxious Revival - Graveyard hate and recursion
1x Crucible of Worlds - List is land hungry
1x Eternal Witness - What green deck doesn't play this?
1x Karmic Guide - Combo, value
1x Sun Titan - Graveyard recursion, ramp
Counter/Disruption: 9
1x Pact of Negation - Unexpected counter
1x Swan Song - Cheap counter
1x Arcane Denial - Cheap counter
1x Mana Drain - Mana and its countered, best counterspell in the game
1x Aven Mindcensor - Clampable, instant speed mindlock orb on a stick. Underrated in multiplayer
1x Glen Elendra Archmage - My second favorite counter in this deck. 2 for 1 and clampable
1x Hokori, Dust Drinker - Slows opponents who tap out
1x Venser, Shaper Savant - Buys time and combo piece
1x Force of Will (*)- Unexpected counter. 26 other blue spells
Aggression/Combo/Disruption: 5
1x Cloud of Faeries - Combo piece
1x Phantasmal Image - Combo and value
1x Sword of Feast and Famine - My favorite sword, simply awesome
1x Deadeye Navigator - Value and combo. Can pair with any of our 18 ETB creatures
1x Palinchron - Infinite mana and combo
Cards I'm contemplating adding:
Cards I'm thinking about removing:
Changelog
12/12/12 Removed: Yavimaya Granger, Krosan Grip. Added: Oracle of Mul Daya, Diamond Valley
1/19/13 Removed: Angel of Serenity, Brutalizer Exarch. Added: Bribery, Sylvan Primordial
1/20/13 Removed: Diamond Valley, Blasting Station. Added Crystal Shard, Green Sun's Zenith
1/21/13 Removed: Oracle of Mul Daya, Forest, Mimic Vat. Added Natural Order, Khalni Garden, Sword of Light and Shadow
1/25/13 Removed: Solemn Simulacrum. Added: Consecrated Sphinx
2/20/13 Removed: Sol Ring, Consecrated Sphinx, Sword of Light and Shadow, Intuition, Crystal Shard. Added: Gaea's Cradle, Lotus Cobra, Oracle of Mul Daya, Expedition Map, Sylvan Scrying
2/22/13 Removed: Forest, Expedition Map, Sylvan Scrying, Archaeomancer, Time Warp, Acidic Slime, Farhaven Elf, Sakura-Tribe Elder. Added: Sol Ring, Dryad Arbor, Fact or Fiction, Terastodon, Fracturing Gust, Snapcaster Mage, Consecrated Sphinx, Mystical Tutor
3/9/13 Removed Yavimaya Dryad, Consecrated Sphinx, Mystical Tutor. Added: Farhaven Elf, Masked Admirers, Archaeomancer
3/18/13 Removed: Dryad Arbor, Lotus Cobra, Masked Admirers, Fact or Fiction. Added: Flagstones of Trokair, Consecrated Sphinx, Bant Charm, Voidslime
3/20/13 Removed: Terastodon. Added: Yavimaya Dryad
4/24/13 Removed: Tezzeret the Seeker, Consecrated Sphinx. Added: Progenitor Mimic, Crystal Shard
5/1/13 Removed: Gaea's Cradle, Progenitor Mimic, Qasali Pridgemage, Voidslime, Austere Command, Path to Exile. Added: Cavern of Souls, Consecrated Sphinx, Tezzeret the Seeker, Diluvian Primordial, Knowledge Exploitation, Mystical Tutor
5/8/13 Removed: Crystal Shard, Mystical Tutor. Added: Mana Vault, Garruk Wildspeaker
5/17/13 Removed: Bant Charm. Added: Mimic Vat
5/25/13 Removed: Ancient Tomb, Garruk Wildspeaker, Diluvian Primordial, Body Double, Fracturing Gust. Added: Diamond Valley, Gilded Lotus, Path to Exile, Nature's Claim, Mindbreak Trap
5/30/13 Removed: Nature's Claim, Sea Gate Oracle, Raven Familiar, Sword of Fire and Ice. Added: Qasali Pridemage, Recurring Insight, Birds of Paradise
6/3/13 Removed: Mindbreak Trap, Mimic Vat, Archaeomancer. Added: Prime Speaker Zegana, Progenitor Mimic, Body Double
6/11/13 Removed: Brushland, Court Hussar, Recurring Insight, Wargate, Qasali Pridemage, Knowledge Exploitation, Progenitor Mimic, Capture of Jingzhou. Added: Mystic Gate, Tormod's Crypt, Steal Enchantment, Fracturing Gust, Austere Command, Envelop, Mindbreak Trap, Sigarda
6/22/13 Removed: Fracturing Gust, Reveillark, Envelop. Added: Aven Mindcensor, Linvala, Keeper of Silence, Voidslime
6/27/13 Removed: Voidslime, Steal Enchantment, Tormod's Crypt, Academy Ruins, Temporal Manipulation, Oracle of Mul Daya. Added: Hinder, Mystic Remora, Rest in Peace, Brushland, Wargate, Coalition Relic
7/31/13 Removed: Diamond Valley, Gilded Lotus, Beast Within, Progenitor Mimic, Mindbreak Trap, Body Double. Added: Academy Ruins, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Cyclonic Rift, Muddle the Mixture, Oracle of Mul Daya, Sword of Light and Shadow
8/10/13 Removed: Sword of Light and Shadow, Mana Vault. Added: Enlightened Tutor, Carpet of Flowers
8/27/13 Removed: Yavimaya Dryad, Mulldrifter, Enlightened Tutor, Harmonic Sliver. Added: Mana Vault, Rhystic Study, Clone, Progenitor Mimic
9/16/13 Removed: Clone, Carpet of Flowers, Hinder, Austere Command. Added: Snapcaster Mage, Swan's Song, Curse of the Swine, and Elspeth, Sun's Champion
9/30/13 Removed: Kahlni Garden, Rhystic Study, Curse of the Swine, Progenitor Mimic. Added: Horizon Canopy, Garruk Wildspeaker, Cataclysm, Peacekeeper
11/09/13 Removed: Peacekeeper, Cataclysm, Horizon Canopy, Snapcaster Mage. Added: Magus of the Disk, Somberwald Sage, Bane of Progress, Yavimaya Hollow
11/13/13 Removed: Yavimaya Hollow, Garruk Wildspeaker, Somberwald Sage, Muddle the Mixture, Magus of the Disk, Elspeth Sun's Champion. Added: Horizon Canopy, Mulldrifter, Beast Within, Cataclysm, Snapcaster Mage, Arcane Denial
2/02/14 Removed: Sylvan Primordial. Added: Brutalizer Exarch
2/09/14 Removed: Coalition Relic, Snapcaster Mage, Path to Exile. Added: Courser of Kruphix, Prophet of Kruphix, and Unexpectedly Absent
3/03/14 Removed: Unexpectedly Absent, Courser of Kruphix, Phyrexian Metamorph, Island, Mana Vault, Wood Elves, Mulldrifter, Tezerret the Seeker, Rest in Peace, Brutalizer Exarch. Added: Llanowar Elves, Avacyn's Pilgrim, Somberwald Sage, Weathered Wayfarer, Snapcaster Mage, Nature's Claim, Ephara, God of the Polis, Hokori, Dust Drinker, Terastodon, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
8/19/15 Removed: 5x Forest, 2x Island, 1x Plains, Wooded Bastion, Mystic Gate, Llanowar Elves, Somberwald Sage, Ephara, Prime Speaker Zegana, Sower of Temptation, Cataclysm, Snapcaster Mage, Linvala, GAIV, Sigarda, Venser, the Sojourner. Added: Cavern of Souls, Mana Confluence, Homeward Path, Gemstone Caverns, Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal, Mox Diamond, Carpet of Flowers, Lotus Cobra, Wood Elves, SDT, Rhystic Study, Timetwister, Masked Admirers, Idyllic Tutor, Tezzeret the Seeker, Noxious Revival, Crucible of Worlds, Cloud of Faeries
My removal must be accessible from my tutors(which are geared towards getting out my combo pieces). I've got nothing to tutor for an Austere Command. If I did add Austere Command I'd also include Personal Tutor and Mystical Tutor. They don't help me get my combo pieces out directly, so I cut them a long time ago.
Carpet of Flowers is really, really good against the Arcum player in my playgroup.
You don't like the infinite mana combo with Auriok Salvagers and LED? Add in Altar or Soothsaying or Planar Portal, and the game is over if no one has permission.
My removal must be accessible from my tutors(which are geared towards getting out my combo pieces). I've got nothing to tutor for an Austere Command. If I did add Austere Command I'd also include Personal Tutor and Mystical Tutor. They don't help me get my combo pieces out directly, so I cut them a long time ago.
You don't have to tutor for everything you play. Sometimes, you won't even be able to tutor (Aven Mindcensor, Mindlock Orb, etc.) for a card. Also, Austere Command has an instant effect and is very versatile, unlike Serenity, which you have to wait until your next upkeep to destroy all enchantments and artifacts. You can also choose to destroy fat creatures if you don't want to lose your enchantments/artifacts. I vouch for this card, it is one of the best white has to offer. My only concern is you hitting 6 mana with 32 lands, though.
Carpet of Flowers is really, really good against the Arcum player in my playgroup.
Well, if it's a meta call, go nuts. In a vacuum, though, I don't like this card.
You don't like the infinite mana combo with Auriok Salvagers and LED? Add in Altar or Soothsaying or Planar Portal, and the game is over if no one has permission.
I don't like the fact that LED is a dead card if you don't have Auriok and a way to draw/tutor cards on the table. You could go for more versatile with power artifact + Grim Monolith, with either being somewhat useful without the other.
I'm simply stating the reasons why they appear to be the weakest choice in the deck. If you like all those cards, I'd tell you to cut a few transmute tutors.
One of my friends put together a pretty competitive Uril deck. And it basically took the whole table to keep him pinned down. I've since modified my decklist some, but am having a tough time cutting the last 2 cards. Suggestions on what to cut, or additions, welcomed!
Mana Reflection you already have the wake in the list I thought this could possibly be cut as it is an expensive mana double effect to get on the board. Plus you dont have that much that you need mass mana for.
Timetwister I dislike giving opponents cards especially when I am blue and can afford good draw.
Windfall same problem with timetwister except this one is worse.
Greater Good you have almost borderline no creatures in your list. Sure you can sac Jenara to this but you have hardly anything else that works with this card. I think this should probably just be fact or fiction.
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur so mana intensive that I dont like him much. He is good I guess... but he is also problematic if people start stealing / rezing him away from you.
Mangara of Corondor soooo soooo slow. I like instant speed surprise removal. Otherwise people will expect you to answer it or will kill him to stop him from answering it.
Hibernation's End I dont see all that many creatures in your list that you need this for... ehhh it just feels sort of meh.
Planar Portal its soooooooo mana intensive. I guess if you feel you really need it but owch its slow. I would never let someone untap with this in play either so I dont know if you plan on having the 12 to drop and activate in the same turn or what.
False Prophet I remember someone dropping this then trying to use a spot removal on him. I just responded with a Swords to Plowshares and foiled their wrath while 2 for 1ing them. I dislike this guy as I feel he is unpredictable at best.
Also I could see you bumping up your land cout possibly. You do have plenty of low mana stones but you could still afford to bump it up.
I threw out a bunch of options that I saw so you might be able to pick from them the ones you might agree with.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Mana Reflection you already have the wake in the list I thought this could possibly be cut as it is an expensive mana double effect to get on the board. Plus you dont have that much that you need mass mana for.
Timetwister I dislike giving opponents cards especially when I am blue and can afford good draw.
Windfall same problem with timetwister except this one is worse.
Greater Good you have almost borderline no creatures in your list. Sure you can sac Jenara to this but you have hardly anything else that works with this card. I think this should probably just be fact or fiction.
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur so mana intensive that I dont like him much. He is good I guess... but he is also problematic if people start stealing / rezing him away from you.
Mangara of Corondor soooo soooo slow. I like instant speed surprise removal. Otherwise people will expect you to answer it or will kill him to stop him from answering it.
Hibernation's End I dont see all that many creatures in your list that you need this for... ehhh it just feels sort of meh.
Planar Portal its soooooooo mana intensive. I guess if you feel you really need it but owch its slow. I would never let someone untap with this in play either so I dont know if you plan on having the 12 to drop and activate in the same turn or what.
False Prophet I remember someone dropping this then trying to use a spot removal on him. I just responded with a Swords to Plowshares and foiled their wrath while 2 for 1ing them. I dislike this guy as I feel he is unpredictable at best.
Also I could see you bumping up your land cout possibly. You do have plenty of low mana stones but you could still afford to bump it up.
I threw out a bunch of options that I saw so you might be able to pick from them the ones you might agree with.
Thanks for the quick and detailed response!
Mana Reflection: While the average cost of my spells is fairly low, I need about 10 mana to go off usually. Mana is extremely critical to my deck's success. This card is disgustingly good and if combined with Mirari's Wake you effectively have infinite mana.
Timetwister: Giving opponents cards is always a risk. But refilling my hand is sometimes necessary to get to my combo pieces. If I had no combo pieces I would not play this card. The best time to use this is 2nd turn, after a first turn Exploration.
Windfall: Same reasoning as Timetwister
Greater Good: This card is underrated. It offers protection for my creatures from being taken away on the battlefield, gives returns on my investment into creatures like Jenara, Sun Titan, Jin-Gitaxias, Woodfall Primus, Archon of Justice, Serra Acesndant, and serves as a sac outlet for Academy Rector, False Prophet, Archon of Justice, WoodFall Primus.
Jin Gitaxias: I use Loyal Retainers to get him in, usually discarding Jin Gitaxias through Survival of the Fittest, Fauna Shaman, or Greater Good
Mangara of Corondor: I agree he is slow. The nice thing about him is cheapness and recursion with Genesis or Nim Deathmantle
Hibernation's End: Haven't tried playing this yet. But theoretically it is good. 1. Serra Ascendant
2. Melira, Sylvok Outcast, Lotus Cobra, Fauna Shaman, or Voidmage Prodigy
3. Eternal Witness, Mangara of Corondor, Ertai Wizard Adept, Trinket Mage, or Loyal Retainers
4. Auriok Salvagers, Glen Elendra Archmage, Academy Rector, Phyrexian Metamorph, False Prophet
5. Archon of Justice, Seedborn Muse
If left unaddressed it WILL get me my combo pieces. Granted it is slow, but if I can get 2 creatures with it, I think that would be very sweet.
Planar Portal: This may be a win more card. If I can get it out and use it, I should have the game in the bag already. It has won me a few games but from dominant board positions. Basically it's a if no one stops it I'm going to win card.
False Prophet: Reusable removal with Genesis and a sac outlet. Otherwise not so good I'd agree. I may be a little weak in mass removal
Of the cards on my list Open the Vaults is the one I'm looking long and hard at. I have no tutors to reach it and it is a terrible opening card. Mid or end game it rocks but that's a long time to be hanging onto a card.
Swift this guy is the king of Jenara decks. His primer is exhaustive and well written. And he is absolutely right on all points- every card he mentioned is very cuttable.
/incoming rant not at all directed at anyone in particular
I don't know why people have been hot on Hibernation's End lately. I'm sorry but I think this is just a bad card. Firstly, the cumulative upkeep is non-trivial. It's a dead card for much of the early game because paying the cumulative upkeep will set you back badly. Second, if you want to assemble a combo, there is no better card in these colors than Survival of the Fittest, and since you're in white you can tutor for it any number of ways. So yes, it's actually a knock against this card that it's not Survival or a tutor for Survival. Thirdly, it's just too dang slow. It will die or you will lose before it "gets going". Birthing Pod is way faster, works the turn it comes into play and gets you death triggers too (like Archon of Justice). And again, you're in Bant colors so tutoring for an artifact should be quite easy. Add it all up and I see literally no reason to play this card.
/end rant
As for mass draw getting you combo pieces, I recommend actually tutoring for them. Bant can tutor for pretty much anything you need even without black (Wargate alone is nuts), and then you aren't giving your opponents all kinds of gas to stop you (or win first!).
I agree you could definately benefit from Survival of the Fittest. There are several specific combos that can be executed from it. One of my own favorite is a Reveillark combo. It might not quite be as good in your list due to the fact that it tends to be better in creature based decks but if you are interested in knowing about it I will just scalp the details out of my primer for you in the spoiler below:
This is usually set up by using Survival of the Fittest to tutor into several creatures. It starts out with Survival in play, activate survival throwing out any creature to accumulate the following creatures in your graveyard (Saffi Eriksdotter, Karmic Guide, Mirror Entity, Acidic Slime / Archon of Justice). Finish off the combo with Reveillark in hand. (I would actually encourage you to consider the second method of doing this combo over this one as it uses less bad cards in it. The second method is made possible by Body Double.)
1)Once you have it set up you start the combo out by Evoking the lark into play.
2) Lark dies to the evoke and rezes Entity and Guide into play. Guide rezes lark into play off its entering.
3) Activate Entity some large unimportant number of times at 0 mana (lets say 100 times). This will be used as our sac outlet to keep the combo going. Allow the first activation to kick in and kill you guys.
4) Lark triggers rezing Guide and Saffi into play. Guide rezes lark back up again.
5) Sacrifice Saffi targeting lark for a rez shield. Allow the second Entity trigger to kill your guys again.
6) Lark rezes from Saffi’s ability. Lark rezes Saffi and Guide using his ability. Guide can now rez you board clear creature, Slime or Archon whichever you fetched up. At this point you can keep doing this for as long as you need to and blow out all of your opponents permenants. It is a mean combo though, don’t do it in a casual game or you might piss people off.
I feel I should probably also include that there is a simplified way to do this as well as we have blue in our colors. Using Body Double in the combo we can actually cut out the middle man so to say. For this simplified version you would still need Survival of the Fittest and the following creatures in your yard: Mirror Entity, Body Double, and Acidic Slime in the yard with Reveillark in hand. (this means of using the combo has proven to be better due to having less bad cards utilized in it. If you want to run this combo use this method.)
1) Evoke Lark into play. It dies and rezes Entity and Double into play. The double comes in as a copy of lark.
2) Entity triggers 100 or so times on the stack. Allow the first one to trigger and kill everything.
3) Double dies and triggers the lark ability. Using lark ability you rez double back into play as lark and the slime into play wrecking a target. From here you have the combo rolling and the Double replaces a lot of the complicated parts just rezing itself + the slime over and over.
Hibernation's End whenever I look to use continuous card advantage engines I always look to see how long it will take until the expected results come. The big issue with this card is that it is a full two turns after you cast this thing before you have an option to get the first combo piece from it. It is just sooo slow. It gives a lot of time to shoot it down with little to no consequences. Once your group gets to know your list as well if you were to drop this card out the first thing I would try to do is convince everyone to attack you and get your life total down to like 25 or so so the next turn Ascendant is meaningless as well. If you draw this later in the game waiting 3 full turns for a 2 drop creature is just unacceptable. My big problem with this card is that it cost quite a bit of mana and has a good chance of not panning out at all. If you were to just use a creature tutor you are far more guaranteed to get something useful.
Mana Reflection you mentioned that you wanted to get up to the 10-12 mana range quickly. I think to be honest this isnt the best way to do it. I would examine possibly adding something like Skyshroud Claim which would get you up in mana faster in the game or Primeval Titan which I also notice you do not run. The Primeval Titan has come wayyyyy down in price over his old $40 and he is very manageable these days, or at least he was last I checked.
Timetwister if you are really set in using these I suppose I cant complain too much. Personally I would be more for seeing like Ancestral Memories which digs 7 cards deep and lets you draw 2 of them or Fact or Fiction which digs 5 cards deep and lets you draw 2-3 of your choice generally. While the timetwister effects are good at digging to combo they also stock all of your opponents up with threats and answers of their own. I really frown in general unless I am running mono R at which point you just have to run Wheel of Fortune.
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur he is good I just think that that is a lot of hoops to jump through just to get Jin into play. Generally speaking if I am going to set up cards like that I want them to win me the game on their own. Jin is still very volitile to be spot removed on the spot and or during your opponent's turns to save their hands. Consecrated Sphinx might be a decent substitute due to its mana cost being significantly lower and still drawing you tons of cards.
Greater Good believe me, greater good is not underrated. I try to jam it into every single green deck I have. I just don't think it makes the cut solely to protect commanders from tuck removal and theft (On a side note you dont even have much worth stealing). Look at my list sometime I run 30 creatures and I found it not quite good enough for my list due to the low power of them on average. If you want theft protection perhaps try Homeward Path. If you want protection from theft and rite of replication you can also try High Market
Planar Portal: I agree it is a bit of a winmore card. Sure it has potential to be crazy abusive but if you have 12 mana already there are so many other broken things you could do as well that would just break the game on the spot. This card is really slow.
False Prophet honestly I would take the ability to control the wrath over re-usability. Final Judgment would be a similar effect if you are looking for it otherwise my suggestion would probably be Rout as the instant speed option of it is amazing.
As a side note I dont see Academy Ruins anywhere in your list. It is crazy good to reuse needed utility. I have used it on my Oblivion Stone several times now for when I need to load up more wraths.
Swift this guy is the king of Jenara decks. His primer is exhaustive and well written. And he is absolutely right on all points- every card he mentioned is very cuttable.
/incoming rant not at all directed at anyone in particular
I don't know why people have been hot on Hibernation's End lately. I'm sorry but I think this is just a bad card. Firstly, the cumulative upkeep is non-trivial. It's a dead card for much of the early game because paying the cumulative upkeep will set you back badly. Second, if you want to assemble a combo, there is no better card in these colors than Survival of the Fittest, and since you're in white you can tutor for it any number of ways. So yes, it's actually a knock against this card that it's not Survival or a tutor for Survival. Thirdly, it's just too dang slow. It will die or you will lose before it "gets going". Birthing Pod is way faster, works the turn it comes into play and gets you death triggers too (like Archon of Justice). And again, you're in Bant colors so tutoring for an artifact should be quite easy. Add it all up and I see literally no reason to play this card.
/end rant
As for mass draw getting you combo pieces, I recommend actually tutoring for them. Bant can tutor for pretty much anything you need even without black (Wargate alone is nuts), and then you aren't giving your opponents all kinds of gas to stop you (or win first!).
Thank you for your input! I like getting other opinions, even if I do tend to argue some lol. I've put in almost every tutor I can. A while back I did play with selfish card draw like mind spring and braingeyser. However I found if exploration or azusa came down very early game there was nothing better than timetwister or windfall. Admittedly in mid or end game if I'd say they are less useful than braingeyser or mind spring, but not horribly so.
Birthing Pod is very similar to Hibernation's End. Both are somewhat limited in what they allow you to do. Perhaps I should add in Birthing Pod. Thinking about it, I could consistently get a 4cc creature if I sac Jenara, which isn't too bad since 3 of the most important creatures would be false prophet, glen elendra, and auriok salvagers. Birthing Pod could also serve as another backup sac outlet. It's unrealistic to assume Hibernation's End will get anymore than 1-2 creatures. And with either Birthing Pod or Hibernation's End on the table I will no doubt get lots of attention. But with Birthing Pod I can get potentially get out false prophet the turn it comes in and set it off next turn to get Genesis or Seedborn, which can get a Sun Titan later. Yes, I'll take a good look at this card
I agree you could definately benefit from Survival of the Fittest. There are several specific combos that can be executed from it. One of my own favorite is a Reveillark combo. It might not quite be as good in your list due to the fact that it tends to be better in creature based decks but if you are interested in knowing about it I will just scalp the details out of my primer for you in the spoiler below:
This is usually set up by using Survival of the Fittest to tutor into several creatures. It starts out with Survival in play, activate survival throwing out any creature to accumulate the following creatures in your graveyard (Saffi Eriksdotter, Karmic Guide, Mirror Entity, Acidic Slime / Archon of Justice). Finish off the combo with Reveillark in hand. (I would actually encourage you to consider the second method of doing this combo over this one as it uses less bad cards in it. The second method is made possible by Body Double.)
1)Once you have it set up you start the combo out by Evoking the lark into play.
2) Lark dies to the evoke and rezes Entity and Guide into play. Guide rezes lark into play off its entering.
3) Activate Entity some large unimportant number of times at 0 mana (lets say 100 times). This will be used as our sac outlet to keep the combo going. Allow the first activation to kick in and kill you guys.
4) Lark triggers rezing Guide and Saffi into play. Guide rezes lark back up again.
5) Sacrifice Saffi targeting lark for a rez shield. Allow the second Entity trigger to kill your guys again.
6) Lark rezes from Saffi’s ability. Lark rezes Saffi and Guide using his ability. Guide can now rez you board clear creature, Slime or Archon whichever you fetched up. At this point you can keep doing this for as long as you need to and blow out all of your opponents permenants. It is a mean combo though, don’t do it in a casual game or you might piss people off.
I feel I should probably also include that there is a simplified way to do this as well as we have blue in our colors. Using Body Double in the combo we can actually cut out the middle man so to say. For this simplified version you would still need Survival of the Fittest and the following creatures in your yard: Mirror Entity, Body Double, and Acidic Slime in the yard with Reveillark in hand. (this means of using the combo has proven to be better due to having less bad cards utilized in it. If you want to run this combo use this method.)
1) Evoke Lark into play. It dies and rezes Entity and Double into play. The double comes in as a copy of lark.
2) Entity triggers 100 or so times on the stack. Allow the first one to trigger and kill everything.
3) Double dies and triggers the lark ability. Using lark ability you rez double back into play as lark and the slime into play wrecking a target. From here you have the combo rolling and the Double replaces a lot of the complicated parts just rezing itself + the slime over and over.
Hibernation's End whenever I look to use continuous card advantage engines I always look to see how long it will take until the expected results come. The big issue with this card is that it is a full two turns after you cast this thing before you have an option to get the first combo piece from it. It is just sooo slow. It gives a lot of time to shoot it down with little to no consequences. Once your group gets to know your list as well if you were to drop this card out the first thing I would try to do is convince everyone to attack you and get your life total down to like 25 or so so the next turn Ascendant is meaningless as well. If you draw this later in the game waiting 3 full turns for a 2 drop creature is just unacceptable. My big problem with this card is that it cost quite a bit of mana and has a good chance of not panning out at all. If you were to just use a creature tutor you are far more guaranteed to get something useful.
Mana Reflection you mentioned that you wanted to get up to the 10-12 mana range quickly. I think to be honest this isnt the best way to do it. I would examine possibly adding something like Skyshroud Claim which would get you up in mana faster in the game or Primeval Titan which I also notice you do not run. The Primeval Titan has come wayyyyy down in price over his old $40 and he is very manageable these days, or at least he was last I checked.
Timetwister if you are really set in using these I suppose I cant complain too much. Personally I would be more for seeing like Ancestral Memories which digs 7 cards deep and lets you draw 2 of them or Fact or Fiction which digs 5 cards deep and lets you draw 2-3 of your choice generally. While the timetwister effects are good at digging to combo they also stock all of your opponents up with threats and answers of their own. I really frown in general unless I am running mono R at which point you just have to run Wheel of Fortune.
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur he is good I just think that that is a lot of hoops to jump through just to get Jin into play. Generally speaking if I am going to set up cards like that I want them to win me the game on their own. Jin is still very volitile to be spot removed on the spot and or during your opponent's turns to save their hands. Consecrated Sphinx might be a decent substitute due to its mana cost being significantly lower and still drawing you tons of cards.
Greater Good believe me, greater good is not underrated. I try to jam it into every single green deck I have. I just don't think it makes the cut solely to protect commanders from tuck removal and theft (On a side note you dont even have much worth stealing). Look at my list sometime I run 30 creatures and I found it not quite good enough for my list due to the low power of them on average. If you want theft protection perhaps try Homeward Path. If you want protection from theft and rite of replication you can also try High Market
Planar Portal: I agree it is a bit of a winmore card. Sure it has potential to be crazy abusive but if you have 12 mana already there are so many other broken things you could do as well that would just break the game on the spot. This card is really slow.
False Prophet honestly I would take the ability to control the wrath over re-usability. Final Judgment would be a similar effect if you are looking for it otherwise my suggestion would probably be Rout as the instant speed option of it is amazing.
As a side note I dont see Academy Ruins anywhere in your list. It is crazy good to reuse needed utility. I have used it on my Oblivion Stone several times now for when I need to load up more wraths.
Hibernation's End: I'm thinking you may be right on this card. I'll test it out some more before I take it out.
Mana Reflection: Primeval Titan gets stolen way too much, I took it out after watching the whole table fight over it every game. Homeward Path is not dependable given the amount of land destruction out there.
Jin Gitaxias: I had Sphinx in but cut him. It was more efficient to use Jin Gitaxias. Get Surivial (or Fauna) in play. Pitch a creature to get Genesis, pitch to get Jin-Gitaxias, pitch to get Loyal Retianers. If they answer Jin Gitaxias when he comes out, they answer it, but I get to draw 7 cards if they dont do it at instant speed, and I can put him back out next turn, mana permitting.
Greater Good: I've never been unhappy to see this card in play. As I said it is a sac outlet and card advantage engine in one. High Market is already in, and I will probably be adding Birthing Pod
False Prophet: No reason not to play him with all my sac outlets. He is cheaper than Final Judgement, and with Genesis, a reapatable bomb
Academy Ruins: There just wasn't any one artifact I must have back to warrant including Academy and losing out on my normal draw.
I'm running 100/100 cards in the list on ISBPathfinder's Primer thread.
I always suggest people to run whatever cards they like, since everyone has their own agenda for their deck. However, you should take a look at the first page of ISBPathfinder's Jenara thread, and ask yourself if you're trying to accomplish the same things that he claims his deck does. If you are looking to do similar things, then I'd strongly recommend reconsidering your reasoning behind a lot of the cards.
You don't need to match your deck to that decklist 100/100 cards, but I'll name a few more cards that are going to underperform for you here:
These are not cards I want to cast in a multiplayer game.
You run Lion's Eye Diamond to gain infinite mana. What are you going to do if you are able to get your infinite mana combo?
Same with Mirari's Wake and Mana Reflection. These cards are going to get destroyed by your opponents before you even see an untap phase. Not only will they be destroyed, but they'll be destroyed by a card that nets your opponent value, like Austere Command, or Acidic Slime, leaving you with overpaid card disadvantage.
In my opinion, it's important to run cards in EDH that are not super dependant on other cards to be good. You want everything to pull it's weight on its own.
I'm running 100/100 cards in the list on ISBPathfinder's Primer thread.
I always suggest people to run whatever cards they like, since everyone has their own agenda for their deck. However, you should take a look at the first page of ISBPathfinder's Jenara thread, and ask yourself if you're trying to accomplish the same things that he claims his deck does. If you are looking to do similar things, then I'd strongly recommend reconsidering your reasoning behind a lot of the cards.
You don't need to match your deck to that decklist 100/100 cards, but I'll name a few more cards that are going to underperform for you here:
These are not cards I want to cast in a multiplayer game.
You run Lion's Eye Diamond to gain infinite mana. What are you going to do if you are able to get your infinite mana combo?
Same with Mirari's Wake and Mana Reflection. These cards are going to get destroyed by your opponents before you even see an untap phase. Not only will they be destroyed, but they'll be destroyed by a card that nets your opponent value, like Austere Command, or Acidic Slime, leaving you with overpaid card disadvantage.
In my opinion, it's important to run cards in EDH that are not super dependant on other cards to be good. You want everything to pull it's weight on its own.
ISB's build is much less combo oriented. You're not going to find many cards for combo that can stand toe to toe with cards from a straight control or creature build individually.
LED+Aurioks can be used to grow Jenara. With Greater Good or Altar of Dementia that's game. If you just have Future Sight out, play 5-6 cards that's usually enough to get something to finish the game.
I could probably cut Fauna Shaman, Serra Ascendant, Nim Deathmantle. Wouldn't miss them too much. Weird Harvest is good however. It can get Trinket Mage, Auriok Salvagers, or Melira and Woodfall Primus.
Mirari's Wake and Mana Reflection are the fastest way to the 10-12 mana I require. They are not card disadvantage. By your reasoning all the creatures on your list are card disadvantage when someone board wipes.
Have you perhaps considered running some other combo options?
Palinchron + Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger (or either of your current mana doublers) generates infinite mana and is tutorable off of Tooth and Nail if you are interested. What I like about this is that it feels like the 2 cards are more useful in standalone situations than LED feels like it ever could be. The salvagers I suppose could be decent outside of the combo but with very select cards.
The big question would be if you are alright with slowing it down a bit. I don't know what the chance of you wanting to execute a LED combo for infinite mana in the first few turns... It sounds a bit risky in my mind. Overall I feel like the two creatures are better options if you are forced to use them as standalone cards.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Mana Reflection: While the average cost of my spells is fairly low, I need about 10 mana to go off usually. Mana is extremely critical to my deck's success. This card is disgustingly good and if combined with Mirari's Wake you effectively have infinite mana.
Timetwister: Giving opponents cards is always a risk. But refilling my hand is sometimes necessary to get to my combo pieces. If I had no combo pieces I would not play this card. The best time to use this is 2nd turn, after a first turn Exploration.
Windfall: Same reasoning as Timetwister
Greater Good: This card is underrated. It offers protection for my creatures from being taken away on the battlefield, gives returns on my investment into creatures like Jenara, Sun Titan, Jin-Gitaxias, Woodfall Primus, Archon of Justice, Serra Acesndant, and serves as a sac outlet for Academy Rector, False Prophet, Archon of Justice, WoodFall Primus.
Jin Gitaxias: I use Loyal Retainers to get him in, usually discarding Jin Gitaxias through Survival of the Fittest, Fauna Shaman, or Greater Good
Mangara of Corondor: I agree he is slow. The nice thing about him is cheapness and recursion with Genesis or Nim Deathmantle:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
Hibernation's End: Haven't tried playing this yet. But theoretically it is good. 1. Serra Ascendant
2. Melira, Sylvok Outcast, Lotus Cobra, Fauna Shaman, or Voidmage Prodigy
3. Eternal Witness, Mangara of Corondor, Ertai Wizard Adept, Trinket Mage, or Loyal Retainers
4. Auriok Salvagers, Glen Elendra Archmage, Academy Rector, Phyrexian Metamorph, False Prophet
5. Archon of Justice, Seedborn Muse
If left unaddressed it WILL get me my combo pieces. Granted it is slow, but if I can get 2 creatures with it, I think that would be very sweet.
Planar Portal: This may be a win more card. If I can get it out and use it, I should have the game in the bag already. It has won me a few games but from dominant board positions. Basically it's a if no one stops it I'm going to win card.
False Prophet: Reusable removal with Genesis and a sac outlet. Otherwise not so good I'd agree. I may be a little weak in mass removal
Of the cards on my list Open the Vaults is the one I'm looking long and hard at. I have no tutors to reach it and it is a terrible opening card. Mid or end game it rocks but that's a long time to be hanging onto a card.
I just want to point out that Mangara of Corondor exiles himself on resolution of his ability.... so the only way to cheat with him is to sac him in response to his trigger on the stack or bounce him with trigger on the stack. In my opinion you are jumping through hoops to do this but that is just me.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I just want to point out that Mangara of Corondor exiles himself on resolution of his ability.... so the only way to cheat with him is to sac him in response to his trigger on the stack or bounce him with trigger on the stack. In my opinion you are jumping through hoops to do this but that is just me.
Yeah I got it off one game (getting Lightning Greaves, Mangara, Nim Deathmantle, and a Sac outlet) but that is rare. It's just too difficult. Archon of Justice can get there with one less piece and I'm debating whether or not its worth the effort.
Birthing Pod doesn't do enough to justify its inclusion. Too situational, and sorcery speed is not convenient. I'll try Tooth and Nail. Chord of Calling I'm thinking of replacing with Drift of Phantasms. I don't have too much to get at instant speed besides maybe False Prophet, Glen Elendra or Ertai. Getting Ashnod's Altar or other 3cc spells may be more useful. I need more ways to get sac outlets besides wargate, fabricate, enlightened tutor.
Tezzeret the Seeker has been fantastic in my own experience with him. If you have a bit of an artifact package he can get 1-2 of them on a normal basis. He has been quite well in my own playtesting with him.
I could see problems with Birthing Pod as well but primarily in the fact that you have a lower creature count and a lot less ETB abilities. It is a very good card but not for every list by any means. The sorcery speed of it while being a limitation is not really a dealbreaker when it is being used in the right list.
Also how has Aura Shards panned out for you??? I feel like your creature count is sort of a bit low for a card like this but I could be mistaken. I tried it myself and found it a bit slow to operate without token swarms.
Tezzeret the Seeker has been fantastic in my own experience with him. If you have a bit of an artifact package he can get 1-2 of them on a normal basis. He has been quite well in my own playtesting with him.
I could see problems with Birthing Pod as well but primarily in the fact that you have a lower creature count and a lot less ETB abilities. It is a very good card but not for every list by any means. The sorcery speed of it while being a limitation is not really a dealbreaker when it is being used in the right list.
Also how has Aura Shards panned out for you??? I feel like your creature count is sort of a bit low for a card like this but I could be mistaken. I tried it myself and found it a bit slow to operate without token swarms.
Hmm, you are right Tezzeret the Seeker is what I wish for. It's going in. Revoke Existence removes stuff, permanently. Just like Return to Dust. The most broken cards in my meta are enchantments and artifacts (Uril, Mono Black, Arcum) so its a huge plus when they are just gone. Aura Shards is decent for its repeatable usage. With a little over 20 creatures if I can get 2-3 triggers I'm usually very satisfied. It's preferable to a board wipe as I can keep my enchantments and artifacts. I've almost always gotten at least one activation from it. I'd agree its slow, but rarely does anyone go out of their way to kill it.
Oblation is a nice tuck card, but 2 cards is bad, they can still get it back, and some cards like Uril are untargettable. Thus I've never really considered putting it in my deck.
Krosan Grip is good. Friends have used it to stop me from going off as I've tried to combo out. The thing I have against it is it's 1:1, and isn't recurrable. I've had this in and out.
Bant Charm: It's cost is the main issue I have with it. Having to keep 3 mana, 1 of each color, open to cast it is a pain
Path to Exile: Good card, just not too keen on ramping opponent.
If you are having some problems with Uril (which I used to as well) I have found Spell Crumple and Hinder to be very powerful against him. I dont run a lot of counterspells but I have found that these 2 have been very powerful against decks who rely heavily on their commanders.
Plus they are very useful outside of creature hate as they can stop combos from going off or stupid things like Tooth and Nail from executing.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
If you are having some problems with Uril (which I used to as well) I have found Spell Crumple and Hinder to be very powerful against him. I dont run a lot of counterspells but I have found that these 2 have been very powerful against decks who rely heavily on their commanders.
Plus they are very useful outside of creature hate as they can stop combos from going off or stupid things like Tooth and Nail from executing.
Null Brooch and LED tend to elimate my hand. Against Uril I'm just going to have to hope Phyrexian Metamorph and Phantasmal Image are sufficient. As far as counters go Glen Elendra is usually enough. When I get Glen Elendra out I know I can go off without interruptions.
Just a heads up. If you want you can change the thread name by double clicking in the name plate when in the multiplayer decks area. I just thought you might want to drop the whole need help cutting 3 cards part of the name now that you are down to 100.
Don't click on the actual name but like off to the right on the same line and you will be able to change it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Just a heads up. If you want you can change the thread name by double clicking in the name plate when in the multiplayer decks area. I just thought you might want to drop the whole need help cutting 3 cards part of the name now that you are down to 100.
Don't click on the actual name but like off to the right on the same line and you will be able to change it.
Have you perhaps considered running some other combo options?
Palinchron + Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger (or either of your current mana doublers) generates infinite mana and is tutorable off of Tooth and Nail if you are interested. What I like about this is that it feels like the 2 cards are more useful in standalone situations than LED feels like it ever could be. The salvagers I suppose could be decent outside of the combo but with very select cards.
The big question would be if you are alright with slowing it down a bit. I don't know what the chance of you wanting to execute a LED combo for infinite mana in the first few turns... It sounds a bit risky in my mind. Overall I feel like the two creatures are better options if you are forced to use them as standalone cards.
I thought about this and decided Vorinclex and Palinchron were too high cc. Of the two I liked Palinchron more but unless its going to finish my opponent by itself I'd prefer smaller pieces. A 0cc and 4cc are much more palatable to me than the 5 or 6cc Mirari's Wake or Mana Reflection and a 7cc. I guess another plus with Palinchron would be I could cut 2 cards and net 1 free slot, but Aurioks does let me bring back cards like skullclamp, tormod's crypt, a krosan gripped top, mana crypt, and sol ring in addition to the LED. Overall for the lower cc I prefer the LED and Aurioks route to infinite mana. Weird Harvest, Tooth and Nail can pick Trinket Mage and Aurioks. While 1 card is not able to assemble the Palinchron combo. As to the risk associated with LED, my deck plays cards fairly quickly and I rarely wind up holding much in hand after turn 5 or 6. I don't crack LED before I clear out most of my hand, unless I'm doing in response after playing windfall or timetwister
This incarnation is probably my last revision of Jenara (until the next block is released). It plays fairly well and makes a significant impact in every game I play. If anyone has suggestions or criticism, feel free to put them forth! I welcome good input.
This list originally started out with Jenara as General. I switched over to Rafiq after being attracted by its superior damage potential. From there I tried various builds:voltron Rafiq, infect Rafiq, and control/combo Rafiq. Both voltron and infect Rafiq were extremely fast but almost always ran out of steam. 1-2 players would die but the rest of the table remained. Too many resources were dedicated to acceleration and late in games being stuck in top-deck mode happened all too often. Combo Rafiq had too many dead cards. Few combo cards could stand on their own. The Lark combo for example, was good. But with insufficient tutors it was inconsistent and I hated drawing Mirror Entity. So I discarded it. Next I tried Temporal Manipulation, Capture of Jingzhou, and Time Warp. And upon trying them, I realized they obsoleted Finest Hour, Sovereigns of Lost Alara, and combat damage. However when all my opponents were assembling 2-card combos, assembling our 3-card combo and going infinite was a losing proposition. So from there this current ETB/aggro/control build evolved. Its focus is ETB and disrupting opponents. The heavy creature base puts enough blockers in play to slow down aggro decks while generating card/resource advantage. It can take out the table by forcing a concession from opponents by destroying/bouncing all their noncreature pemanents. And it puts up a lot of road blocks against combo decks. While I believe this incarnation is superior to prior versions, it does not win all or even a majority of its games. Much credit goes to ISBPathfinder for inspiring this list.
1x Rafiq of the Many
Land: 31
1x Tundra
1x Savannah
1x Tropical Island
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Breeding Pool
1x Temple Garden
1x Flooded Strand
1x Windswept Heath
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Scalding Tarn (*)
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Polluted Delta
1x Marsh Flats
1x Arid Mesa
1x Command Tower
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Mana Confluence
1x Gemstone Caverns
1x Flooded Grove
1x Horizon Canopy
1x City of Brass
1x Brushland
1x Adarkar Wastes
1x Yavimaya Coast
1x Flagstones of Trokair
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x High Market
1x Homeward Path
1x Strip Mine
1x Forest
Mana: 16
1x Chrome Mox
1x Lotus Petal
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mox Diamond
1x Avacyn's Pilgrim
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Carpet of Flowers
1x Mana Vault
1x Noble Hierarch
1x Sol Ring
1x Weathered Wayfarer
1x Bloom Tender
1x Lotus Cobra
1x Wood Elves
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
1x Prophet of Kruphix
1x Mystic Remora
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Skullclamp
1x Coiling Oracle
1x Elvish Visionary
1x Sylvan Library
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Rhystic Study
1x Timetwister
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Masked Admirers
1x Consecrated Sphinx
Tutors: 13
1x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Eladamri's Call
1x Fauna Shaman
1x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Survival of the Fittest
1x Chord of Calling
1x Fierce Empath
1x Idyllic Tutor
1x Trinket Mage
1x Birthing Pod
1x Natural Order
1x Bribery
1x Tezzeret the Seeker
Removal: 8
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Cyclonic Rift
1x Gilded Drake
1x Beast Within
1x Oblivion Stone
1x Bane of Progress
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Terastodon
1x Noxious Revival
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Eternal Witness
1x Karmic Guide
1x Sun Titan
Counter/Disruption: 9
1x Pact of Negation
1x Swan Song
1x Arcane Denial
1x Mana Drain
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Glen Elendra Archmage
1x Hokori, Dust Drinker
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Force of Will (*)
Combo/Aggression: 5
1x Cloud of Faeries
1x Phantasmal Image
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Deadeye Navigator
1x Palinchron
Deckstats: Updated 8/19/15l
Mana Curve: 2.76
Lands: 31
Creatures: 33
Artifacts: 13
Enchantments: 5
Instants: 11
Sorceries: 5
Planeswalkers: 2
Good Starting hand: 3 lands. 1 mana/ramp spell. 2 draw/tutor spells. 1 removal/counter spell
Mathematics of EDH
Good resource for figuring out the odds of getting what you want to see.
How the deck operates:
Ramp, draw, and tutor your way out to a fast start. Mystic Remora is the best card advantage engine ever printed against creature light lists. Getting it online and being able to accelerate our mana base to maintain Mystic Remora, or reset it with Venser the Sojourner, is key. Skullclamp was a previous focus of this list but while it's still good I've found it to be slower than Mystic Remora. Ramping and setting up an early draw engine is very important. We're hoping to buy enough time to combo out and take the game around turns 6-8. Throwing a wrench into our opponents plans is a large part of our game plan. Aven Mindcensor, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Linvala, Elesh Norn, and Hokori are very good at slowing opponents down. Probably the largest problem we face is if we're operating from behind. We're light in mass removal and don't have many tutors to get to Oblivion Stone.
Combos:
/*1. (Venser or Deadeye Navigator) + (Eternal Witness) + (Temporal Manipulation)
2. ((Sun Titan + Skullclamp) or Jace TMS or (Mimic Vat + (Skullclamp or High Market or Natural Order or Birthing Pod)) + (Eternal Witness) + (Temporal Manipulation)*/
3. Palinchron + Phantasmal Image
4. Palinchron + Deadeye Navigator + (ETB creature)
5. Survival of the Fittest: pitch Deadeye Navigator, Palinchron, and Venser/Terastodon getting Karmic Guide. Cast Karmic Guide. Bring back Deadeye Navigator. Bond with Karmic Guide. Blink Karmic Guide. Bring back Palinchron. Bond with Palinchron. Go infinite with Deadeye and Palinchron. Bond Venser, bounce opponents permanents. Requires 7 mana to cast Karmic Guide and blink Deadeye after we setup the turn before by casting Survival and loading the graveyard as stated. Conceivably all could be done in one turn for 13 mana but this is unlikely.
/*6. Tooth and Nail: Entwine and get Fierce Empath and Palinchron. Untap 7 land, search for Deadeye Navigator. Cast Deadeye. Bond with Palinchron. Go infinite mana. Bond with Empath and get Terastodon. Cast and bond with Terastodon. Force concession with Terastodon by nuking all nonland permanents. Requires 10 mana, 7 of which must be lands, to go off within the same turn*/
Synergies:
1. Skullclamp + Creatures
2. (Birthing Pod, Venser, Deadeye Navigator, or Jace) + ETB creatures
3. Rafiq + (Swords)
---------------------------
Card choice commentary
Utility Lands:
Cavern of Souls - Human
High Market - Works with Skullclamp. Protects against exile, tuck, and theft
Mana: 16
1x Chrome Mox - Mana rock
1x Lotus Petal - Mana acceleration
1x Mana Crypt - This is an auto include. Allows for first turn ramp critter
1x Mox Diamond - Mana rock
1x Avacyn's Pilgrim - Clampable mana dork
1x Birds of Paradise - Clampable mana dork
1x Carpet of Flowers - Mana acceleration and fixing
1x Mana Vault - Mana rock
1x Noble Hierarch - Clampable, exalted mana dork. Helpful fixing color screw early or recovering from mass LD
1x Sol Ring - Mana rock
1x Weathered Wayfarer - Land fixing
1x Bloom Tender - Clampable, mana dork
1x Lotus Cobra - Mana acceleration
1x Wood Elves - Ramp
1x Oracle of Mul Daya - Ramp
1x Prophet of Kruphix - Broken
Draw: 12
1x Mystic Remora - Draw engine
1x Sensei's Divining Top - Card filter
1x Skullclamp - Draw engine. 11 creatures to clamp directly, 30 total
1x Coiling Oracle - Clampable card advantage/Ramp
1x Elvish Visionary - Clampable card advantage
1x Sylvan Library - One of my problems is I can't stop drawing extra cards with this thing
1x Rhystic Study - Draw engine
1x Sword of Fire and Ice - Draw and board control
1x Timetwister - Draw
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor - Card advantage, value, bounce
1x Masked Admirers - Card advantage engine with Survival
1x Consecrated Sphinx - Draw engine
Tutors: 13
1x Green Sun's Zenith - Brings in Bane of Progress, Bloom Tender, or Fierce Empath
1x Eladamri's Call - Creature tutor. With no pressing threats and enough land, get Fierce Empath to combo off
1x Stoneforge Mystic - Equipment tutor. Always get Skullclamp if there is a clampable creature to abuse. Otherwise get SoFaF or SaFaI
1x Survival of the Fittest - Creature toolbox and combo. In an opening hand use it to get ramp/draw creatures as needed. Priority early on is making sure every land drop hits for the first 4 turns. After 7 lands are out we can combo out with Deadeye combo (combo#5: Karmic Guide getting Deadeye, getting Palinchron, then going infinite and getting Terastodon/Venser).
1x Chord of Calling - Instant speed creature tutor. Preferred targets are: Stoneforge Mystic for Skullclamp (card draw), Phantasmal Image or Palinchron (for infinite mana), Aven Mindcensor, Venser Shaper Savant, or Fierce Empath for Deadeye Navigator (to start our combo chain below)
1x Fierce Empath - Clampable and can get Deadeye and the rest of our combo chain (Palinchron, Terastodon). Does require 18 mana to go off all in one turn. Split between 2 turns the cost is 9 mana.
1x Idyllic Tutor - Get to Survival
1x Trinket Mage - Skullclamp or Mana rock. Almost always get Skullclamp.
1x Wargate - Tutor, its use is much the same with Chord of Calling but can also get O Stone, Survival, or answers. It's a really flexible tutor. If we have a creature in hand we can get Survival. Or if we have clampable creatures in play we could get Stoneforge for Skullclamp. Or we can get Fierce Empath for Deadeye.
1x Birthing Pod - Allows access to our creature toolbox. Key creatures to get to are Glen Elendra Archmage for counter cover, graveyard abuse guys, and Deadeye. The great thing about persist is we can use Glen Elendra twice.
1x Natural Order - Get Prime Speaker Zegana, Bane of Progress, Fierce Empath, or Sigarda
1x Bribery - Get a gamebreaker
1x Tezzeret the Seeker - Value
Removal: 8
1x Sword to Plowshares - Removal
1x Cyclonic Rift - Buys time
1x Gilded Drake - Incredibly efficient card - control magic for 2
1x Beast Within - Removal
1x Oblivion Stone - Removal
1x Bane of Progress - Removal
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite - Removal
1x Terastodon - Removal, combo piece
Graveyard Recursion: 5
1x Noxious Revival - Graveyard hate and recursion
1x Crucible of Worlds - List is land hungry
1x Eternal Witness - What green deck doesn't play this?
1x Karmic Guide - Combo, value
1x Sun Titan - Graveyard recursion, ramp
Counter/Disruption: 9
1x Pact of Negation - Unexpected counter
1x Swan Song - Cheap counter
1x Arcane Denial - Cheap counter
1x Mana Drain - Mana and its countered, best counterspell in the game
1x Aven Mindcensor - Clampable, instant speed mindlock orb on a stick. Underrated in multiplayer
1x Glen Elendra Archmage - My second favorite counter in this deck. 2 for 1 and clampable
1x Hokori, Dust Drinker - Slows opponents who tap out
1x Venser, Shaper Savant - Buys time and combo piece
1x Force of Will (*)- Unexpected counter. 26 other blue spells
Aggression/Combo/Disruption: 5
1x Cloud of Faeries - Combo piece
1x Phantasmal Image - Combo and value
1x Sword of Feast and Famine - My favorite sword, simply awesome
1x Deadeye Navigator - Value and combo. Can pair with any of our 18 ETB creatures
1x Palinchron - Infinite mana and combo
Cards I'm contemplating adding:
Cards I'm thinking about removing:
Changelog
12/12/12 Removed: Yavimaya Granger, Krosan Grip. Added: Oracle of Mul Daya, Diamond Valley
1/19/13 Removed: Angel of Serenity, Brutalizer Exarch. Added: Bribery, Sylvan Primordial
1/20/13 Removed: Diamond Valley, Blasting Station. Added Crystal Shard, Green Sun's Zenith
1/21/13 Removed: Oracle of Mul Daya, Forest, Mimic Vat. Added Natural Order, Khalni Garden, Sword of Light and Shadow
1/25/13 Removed: Solemn Simulacrum. Added: Consecrated Sphinx
2/20/13 Removed: Sol Ring, Consecrated Sphinx, Sword of Light and Shadow, Intuition, Crystal Shard. Added: Gaea's Cradle, Lotus Cobra, Oracle of Mul Daya, Expedition Map, Sylvan Scrying
2/22/13 Removed: Forest, Expedition Map, Sylvan Scrying, Archaeomancer, Time Warp, Acidic Slime, Farhaven Elf, Sakura-Tribe Elder. Added: Sol Ring, Dryad Arbor, Fact or Fiction, Terastodon, Fracturing Gust, Snapcaster Mage, Consecrated Sphinx, Mystical Tutor
3/9/13 Removed Yavimaya Dryad, Consecrated Sphinx, Mystical Tutor. Added: Farhaven Elf, Masked Admirers, Archaeomancer
3/18/13 Removed: Dryad Arbor, Lotus Cobra, Masked Admirers, Fact or Fiction. Added: Flagstones of Trokair, Consecrated Sphinx, Bant Charm, Voidslime
3/20/13 Removed: Terastodon. Added: Yavimaya Dryad
4/24/13 Removed: Tezzeret the Seeker, Consecrated Sphinx. Added: Progenitor Mimic, Crystal Shard
5/1/13 Removed: Gaea's Cradle, Progenitor Mimic, Qasali Pridgemage, Voidslime, Austere Command, Path to Exile. Added: Cavern of Souls, Consecrated Sphinx, Tezzeret the Seeker, Diluvian Primordial, Knowledge Exploitation, Mystical Tutor
5/8/13 Removed: Crystal Shard, Mystical Tutor. Added: Mana Vault, Garruk Wildspeaker
5/17/13 Removed: Bant Charm. Added: Mimic Vat
5/25/13 Removed: Ancient Tomb, Garruk Wildspeaker, Diluvian Primordial, Body Double, Fracturing Gust. Added: Diamond Valley, Gilded Lotus, Path to Exile, Nature's Claim, Mindbreak Trap
5/30/13 Removed: Nature's Claim, Sea Gate Oracle, Raven Familiar, Sword of Fire and Ice. Added: Qasali Pridemage, Recurring Insight, Birds of Paradise
6/3/13 Removed: Mindbreak Trap, Mimic Vat, Archaeomancer. Added: Prime Speaker Zegana, Progenitor Mimic, Body Double
6/11/13 Removed: Brushland, Court Hussar, Recurring Insight, Wargate, Qasali Pridemage, Knowledge Exploitation, Progenitor Mimic, Capture of Jingzhou. Added: Mystic Gate, Tormod's Crypt, Steal Enchantment, Fracturing Gust, Austere Command, Envelop, Mindbreak Trap, Sigarda
6/22/13 Removed: Fracturing Gust, Reveillark, Envelop. Added: Aven Mindcensor, Linvala, Keeper of Silence, Voidslime
6/27/13 Removed: Voidslime, Steal Enchantment, Tormod's Crypt, Academy Ruins, Temporal Manipulation, Oracle of Mul Daya. Added: Hinder, Mystic Remora, Rest in Peace, Brushland, Wargate, Coalition Relic
7/31/13 Removed: Diamond Valley, Gilded Lotus, Beast Within, Progenitor Mimic, Mindbreak Trap, Body Double. Added: Academy Ruins, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Cyclonic Rift, Muddle the Mixture, Oracle of Mul Daya, Sword of Light and Shadow
8/10/13 Removed: Sword of Light and Shadow, Mana Vault. Added: Enlightened Tutor, Carpet of Flowers
8/27/13 Removed: Yavimaya Dryad, Mulldrifter, Enlightened Tutor, Harmonic Sliver. Added: Mana Vault, Rhystic Study, Clone, Progenitor Mimic
9/16/13 Removed: Clone, Carpet of Flowers, Hinder, Austere Command. Added: Snapcaster Mage, Swan's Song, Curse of the Swine, and Elspeth, Sun's Champion
9/30/13 Removed: Kahlni Garden, Rhystic Study, Curse of the Swine, Progenitor Mimic. Added: Horizon Canopy, Garruk Wildspeaker, Cataclysm, Peacekeeper
11/09/13 Removed: Peacekeeper, Cataclysm, Horizon Canopy, Snapcaster Mage. Added: Magus of the Disk, Somberwald Sage, Bane of Progress, Yavimaya Hollow
11/13/13 Removed: Yavimaya Hollow, Garruk Wildspeaker, Somberwald Sage, Muddle the Mixture, Magus of the Disk, Elspeth Sun's Champion. Added: Horizon Canopy, Mulldrifter, Beast Within, Cataclysm, Snapcaster Mage, Arcane Denial
2/02/14 Removed: Sylvan Primordial. Added: Brutalizer Exarch
2/09/14 Removed: Coalition Relic, Snapcaster Mage, Path to Exile. Added: Courser of Kruphix, Prophet of Kruphix, and Unexpectedly Absent
3/03/14 Removed: Unexpectedly Absent, Courser of Kruphix, Phyrexian Metamorph, Island, Mana Vault, Wood Elves, Mulldrifter, Tezerret the Seeker, Rest in Peace, Brutalizer Exarch. Added: Llanowar Elves, Avacyn's Pilgrim, Somberwald Sage, Weathered Wayfarer, Snapcaster Mage, Nature's Claim, Ephara, God of the Polis, Hokori, Dust Drinker, Terastodon, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
8/19/15 Removed: 5x Forest, 2x Island, 1x Plains, Wooded Bastion, Mystic Gate, Llanowar Elves, Somberwald Sage, Ephara, Prime Speaker Zegana, Sower of Temptation, Cataclysm, Snapcaster Mage, Linvala, GAIV, Sigarda, Venser, the Sojourner. Added: Cavern of Souls, Mana Confluence, Homeward Path, Gemstone Caverns, Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal, Mox Diamond, Carpet of Flowers, Lotus Cobra, Wood Elves, SDT, Rhystic Study, Timetwister, Masked Admirers, Idyllic Tutor, Tezzeret the Seeker, Noxious Revival, Crucible of Worlds, Cloud of Faeries
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Thanks for your input! Now let's see
My removal must be accessible from my tutors(which are geared towards getting out my combo pieces). I've got nothing to tutor for an Austere Command. If I did add Austere Command I'd also include Personal Tutor and Mystical Tutor. They don't help me get my combo pieces out directly, so I cut them a long time ago.
Carpet of Flowers is really, really good against the Arcum player in my playgroup.
You don't like the infinite mana combo with Auriok Salvagers and LED? Add in Altar or Soothsaying or Planar Portal, and the game is over if no one has permission.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
You don't have to tutor for everything you play. Sometimes, you won't even be able to tutor (Aven Mindcensor, Mindlock Orb, etc.) for a card. Also, Austere Command has an instant effect and is very versatile, unlike Serenity, which you have to wait until your next upkeep to destroy all enchantments and artifacts. You can also choose to destroy fat creatures if you don't want to lose your enchantments/artifacts. I vouch for this card, it is one of the best white has to offer. My only concern is you hitting 6 mana with 32 lands, though.
Well, if it's a meta call, go nuts. In a vacuum, though, I don't like this card.
I don't like the fact that LED is a dead card if you don't have Auriok and a way to draw/tutor cards on the table. You could go for more versatile with power artifact + Grim Monolith, with either being somewhat useful without the other.
I'm simply stating the reasons why they appear to be the weakest choice in the deck. If you like all those cards, I'd tell you to cut a few transmute tutors.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Mana Reflection you already have the wake in the list I thought this could possibly be cut as it is an expensive mana double effect to get on the board. Plus you dont have that much that you need mass mana for.
Timetwister I dislike giving opponents cards especially when I am blue and can afford good draw.
Windfall same problem with timetwister except this one is worse.
Greater Good you have almost borderline no creatures in your list. Sure you can sac Jenara to this but you have hardly anything else that works with this card. I think this should probably just be fact or fiction.
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur so mana intensive that I dont like him much. He is good I guess... but he is also problematic if people start stealing / rezing him away from you.
Mangara of Corondor soooo soooo slow. I like instant speed surprise removal. Otherwise people will expect you to answer it or will kill him to stop him from answering it.
Hibernation's End I dont see all that many creatures in your list that you need this for... ehhh it just feels sort of meh.
Planar Portal its soooooooo mana intensive. I guess if you feel you really need it but owch its slow. I would never let someone untap with this in play either so I dont know if you plan on having the 12 to drop and activate in the same turn or what.
False Prophet I remember someone dropping this then trying to use a spot removal on him. I just responded with a Swords to Plowshares and foiled their wrath while 2 for 1ing them. I dislike this guy as I feel he is unpredictable at best.
Also I could see you bumping up your land cout possibly. You do have plenty of low mana stones but you could still afford to bump it up.
I threw out a bunch of options that I saw so you might be able to pick from them the ones you might agree with.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Thanks for the quick and detailed response!
Mana Reflection: While the average cost of my spells is fairly low, I need about 10 mana to go off usually. Mana is extremely critical to my deck's success. This card is disgustingly good and if combined with Mirari's Wake you effectively have infinite mana.
Timetwister: Giving opponents cards is always a risk. But refilling my hand is sometimes necessary to get to my combo pieces. If I had no combo pieces I would not play this card. The best time to use this is 2nd turn, after a first turn Exploration.
Windfall: Same reasoning as Timetwister
Greater Good: This card is underrated. It offers protection for my creatures from being taken away on the battlefield, gives returns on my investment into creatures like Jenara, Sun Titan, Jin-Gitaxias, Woodfall Primus, Archon of Justice, Serra Acesndant, and serves as a sac outlet for Academy Rector, False Prophet, Archon of Justice, WoodFall Primus.
Jin Gitaxias: I use Loyal Retainers to get him in, usually discarding Jin Gitaxias through Survival of the Fittest, Fauna Shaman, or Greater Good
Mangara of Corondor: I agree he is slow. The nice thing about him is cheapness and recursion with Genesis or Nim Deathmantle
Hibernation's End: Haven't tried playing this yet. But theoretically it is good. 1. Serra Ascendant
2. Melira, Sylvok Outcast, Lotus Cobra, Fauna Shaman, or Voidmage Prodigy
3. Eternal Witness, Mangara of Corondor, Ertai Wizard Adept, Trinket Mage, or Loyal Retainers
4. Auriok Salvagers, Glen Elendra Archmage, Academy Rector, Phyrexian Metamorph, False Prophet
5. Archon of Justice, Seedborn Muse
If left unaddressed it WILL get me my combo pieces. Granted it is slow, but if I can get 2 creatures with it, I think that would be very sweet.
Planar Portal: This may be a win more card. If I can get it out and use it, I should have the game in the bag already. It has won me a few games but from dominant board positions. Basically it's a if no one stops it I'm going to win card.
False Prophet: Reusable removal with Genesis and a sac outlet. Otherwise not so good I'd agree. I may be a little weak in mass removal
Of the cards on my list Open the Vaults is the one I'm looking long and hard at. I have no tutors to reach it and it is a terrible opening card. Mid or end game it rocks but that's a long time to be hanging onto a card.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
/incoming rant not at all directed at anyone in particular
I don't know why people have been hot on Hibernation's End lately. I'm sorry but I think this is just a bad card. Firstly, the cumulative upkeep is non-trivial. It's a dead card for much of the early game because paying the cumulative upkeep will set you back badly. Second, if you want to assemble a combo, there is no better card in these colors than Survival of the Fittest, and since you're in white you can tutor for it any number of ways. So yes, it's actually a knock against this card that it's not Survival or a tutor for Survival. Thirdly, it's just too dang slow. It will die or you will lose before it "gets going". Birthing Pod is way faster, works the turn it comes into play and gets you death triggers too (like Archon of Justice). And again, you're in Bant colors so tutoring for an artifact should be quite easy. Add it all up and I see literally no reason to play this card.
/end rant
As for mass draw getting you combo pieces, I recommend actually tutoring for them. Bant can tutor for pretty much anything you need even without black (Wargate alone is nuts), and then you aren't giving your opponents all kinds of gas to stop you (or win first!).
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
This is usually set up by using Survival of the Fittest to tutor into several creatures. It starts out with Survival in play, activate survival throwing out any creature to accumulate the following creatures in your graveyard (Saffi Eriksdotter, Karmic Guide, Mirror Entity, Acidic Slime / Archon of Justice). Finish off the combo with Reveillark in hand. (I would actually encourage you to consider the second method of doing this combo over this one as it uses less bad cards in it. The second method is made possible by Body Double.)
1)Once you have it set up you start the combo out by Evoking the lark into play.
2) Lark dies to the evoke and rezes Entity and Guide into play. Guide rezes lark into play off its entering.
3) Activate Entity some large unimportant number of times at 0 mana (lets say 100 times). This will be used as our sac outlet to keep the combo going. Allow the first activation to kick in and kill you guys.
4) Lark triggers rezing Guide and Saffi into play. Guide rezes lark back up again.
5) Sacrifice Saffi targeting lark for a rez shield. Allow the second Entity trigger to kill your guys again.
6) Lark rezes from Saffi’s ability. Lark rezes Saffi and Guide using his ability. Guide can now rez you board clear creature, Slime or Archon whichever you fetched up. At this point you can keep doing this for as long as you need to and blow out all of your opponents permenants. It is a mean combo though, don’t do it in a casual game or you might piss people off.
I feel I should probably also include that there is a simplified way to do this as well as we have blue in our colors. Using Body Double in the combo we can actually cut out the middle man so to say. For this simplified version you would still need Survival of the Fittest and the following creatures in your yard: Mirror Entity, Body Double, and Acidic Slime in the yard with Reveillark in hand. (this means of using the combo has proven to be better due to having less bad cards utilized in it. If you want to run this combo use this method.)
1) Evoke Lark into play. It dies and rezes Entity and Double into play. The double comes in as a copy of lark.
2) Entity triggers 100 or so times on the stack. Allow the first one to trigger and kill everything.
3) Double dies and triggers the lark ability. Using lark ability you rez double back into play as lark and the slime into play wrecking a target. From here you have the combo rolling and the Double replaces a lot of the complicated parts just rezing itself + the slime over and over.
Using this method you can also rez Body Double and Karmic Guide if you want. Using the Karmic Guide you can literally rez anything else into play so if you want to utilize Primeval Titan infinitely or Woodfall Primus infinitely you can do that as well.
Hibernation's End whenever I look to use continuous card advantage engines I always look to see how long it will take until the expected results come. The big issue with this card is that it is a full two turns after you cast this thing before you have an option to get the first combo piece from it. It is just sooo slow. It gives a lot of time to shoot it down with little to no consequences. Once your group gets to know your list as well if you were to drop this card out the first thing I would try to do is convince everyone to attack you and get your life total down to like 25 or so so the next turn Ascendant is meaningless as well. If you draw this later in the game waiting 3 full turns for a 2 drop creature is just unacceptable. My big problem with this card is that it cost quite a bit of mana and has a good chance of not panning out at all. If you were to just use a creature tutor you are far more guaranteed to get something useful.
Mana Reflection you mentioned that you wanted to get up to the 10-12 mana range quickly. I think to be honest this isnt the best way to do it. I would examine possibly adding something like Skyshroud Claim which would get you up in mana faster in the game or Primeval Titan which I also notice you do not run. The Primeval Titan has come wayyyyy down in price over his old $40 and he is very manageable these days, or at least he was last I checked.
Timetwister if you are really set in using these I suppose I cant complain too much. Personally I would be more for seeing like Ancestral Memories which digs 7 cards deep and lets you draw 2 of them or Fact or Fiction which digs 5 cards deep and lets you draw 2-3 of your choice generally. While the timetwister effects are good at digging to combo they also stock all of your opponents up with threats and answers of their own. I really frown in general unless I am running mono R at which point you just have to run Wheel of Fortune.
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur he is good I just think that that is a lot of hoops to jump through just to get Jin into play. Generally speaking if I am going to set up cards like that I want them to win me the game on their own. Jin is still very volitile to be spot removed on the spot and or during your opponent's turns to save their hands. Consecrated Sphinx might be a decent substitute due to its mana cost being significantly lower and still drawing you tons of cards.
Greater Good believe me, greater good is not underrated. I try to jam it into every single green deck I have. I just don't think it makes the cut solely to protect commanders from tuck removal and theft (On a side note you dont even have much worth stealing). Look at my list sometime I run 30 creatures and I found it not quite good enough for my list due to the low power of them on average. If you want theft protection perhaps try Homeward Path. If you want protection from theft and rite of replication you can also try High Market
Planar Portal: I agree it is a bit of a winmore card. Sure it has potential to be crazy abusive but if you have 12 mana already there are so many other broken things you could do as well that would just break the game on the spot. This card is really slow.
False Prophet honestly I would take the ability to control the wrath over re-usability. Final Judgment would be a similar effect if you are looking for it otherwise my suggestion would probably be Rout as the instant speed option of it is amazing.
As a side note I dont see Academy Ruins anywhere in your list. It is crazy good to reuse needed utility. I have used it on my Oblivion Stone several times now for when I need to load up more wraths.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Thank you for your input! I like getting other opinions, even if I do tend to argue some lol. I've put in almost every tutor I can. A while back I did play with selfish card draw like mind spring and braingeyser. However I found if exploration or azusa came down very early game there was nothing better than timetwister or windfall. Admittedly in mid or end game if I'd say they are less useful than braingeyser or mind spring, but not horribly so.
Birthing Pod is very similar to Hibernation's End. Both are somewhat limited in what they allow you to do. Perhaps I should add in Birthing Pod. Thinking about it, I could consistently get a 4cc creature if I sac Jenara, which isn't too bad since 3 of the most important creatures would be false prophet, glen elendra, and auriok salvagers. Birthing Pod could also serve as another backup sac outlet. It's unrealistic to assume Hibernation's End will get anymore than 1-2 creatures. And with either Birthing Pod or Hibernation's End on the table I will no doubt get lots of attention. But with Birthing Pod I can get potentially get out false prophet the turn it comes in and set it off next turn to get Genesis or Seedborn, which can get a Sun Titan later. Yes, I'll take a good look at this card
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Hibernation's End: I'm thinking you may be right on this card. I'll test it out some more before I take it out.
Mana Reflection: Primeval Titan gets stolen way too much, I took it out after watching the whole table fight over it every game. Homeward Path is not dependable given the amount of land destruction out there.
Jin Gitaxias: I had Sphinx in but cut him. It was more efficient to use Jin Gitaxias. Get Surivial (or Fauna) in play. Pitch a creature to get Genesis, pitch to get Jin-Gitaxias, pitch to get Loyal Retianers. If they answer Jin Gitaxias when he comes out, they answer it, but I get to draw 7 cards if they dont do it at instant speed, and I can put him back out next turn, mana permitting.
Greater Good: I've never been unhappy to see this card in play. As I said it is a sac outlet and card advantage engine in one. High Market is already in, and I will probably be adding Birthing Pod
False Prophet: No reason not to play him with all my sac outlets. He is cheaper than Final Judgement, and with Genesis, a reapatable bomb
Academy Ruins: There just wasn't any one artifact I must have back to warrant including Academy and losing out on my normal draw.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
I always suggest people to run whatever cards they like, since everyone has their own agenda for their deck. However, you should take a look at the first page of ISBPathfinder's Jenara thread, and ask yourself if you're trying to accomplish the same things that he claims his deck does. If you are looking to do similar things, then I'd strongly recommend reconsidering your reasoning behind a lot of the cards.
You don't need to match your deck to that decklist 100/100 cards, but I'll name a few more cards that are going to underperform for you here:
Melira, Sylvok Outcast
Weird Harvest
Fauna Shaman
Nim Deathmantle
Serra Ascendant
Lion's Eye Diamond
These are not cards I want to cast in a multiplayer game.
You run Lion's Eye Diamond to gain infinite mana. What are you going to do if you are able to get your infinite mana combo?
Same with Mirari's Wake and Mana Reflection. These cards are going to get destroyed by your opponents before you even see an untap phase. Not only will they be destroyed, but they'll be destroyed by a card that nets your opponent value, like Austere Command, or Acidic Slime, leaving you with overpaid card disadvantage.
In my opinion, it's important to run cards in EDH that are not super dependant on other cards to be good. You want everything to pull it's weight on its own.
I also include discussions about cards we took out, cards we banned, and cards we might add.
ISB's build is much less combo oriented. You're not going to find many cards for combo that can stand toe to toe with cards from a straight control or creature build individually.
LED+Aurioks can be used to grow Jenara. With Greater Good or Altar of Dementia that's game. If you just have Future Sight out, play 5-6 cards that's usually enough to get something to finish the game.
I could probably cut Fauna Shaman, Serra Ascendant, Nim Deathmantle. Wouldn't miss them too much. Weird Harvest is good however. It can get Trinket Mage, Auriok Salvagers, or Melira and Woodfall Primus.
Mirari's Wake and Mana Reflection are the fastest way to the 10-12 mana I require. They are not card disadvantage. By your reasoning all the creatures on your list are card disadvantage when someone board wipes.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Palinchron + Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger (or either of your current mana doublers) generates infinite mana and is tutorable off of Tooth and Nail if you are interested. What I like about this is that it feels like the 2 cards are more useful in standalone situations than LED feels like it ever could be. The salvagers I suppose could be decent outside of the combo but with very select cards.
The big question would be if you are alright with slowing it down a bit. I don't know what the chance of you wanting to execute a LED combo for infinite mana in the first few turns... It sounds a bit risky in my mind. Overall I feel like the two creatures are better options if you are forced to use them as standalone cards.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Mangara gets RFG with his ability bro
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Yeah I got it off one game (getting Lightning Greaves, Mangara, Nim Deathmantle, and a Sac outlet) but that is rare. It's just too difficult. Archon of Justice can get there with one less piece and I'm debating whether or not its worth the effort.
Birthing Pod doesn't do enough to justify its inclusion. Too situational, and sorcery speed is not convenient. I'll try Tooth and Nail. Chord of Calling I'm thinking of replacing with Drift of Phantasms. I don't have too much to get at instant speed besides maybe False Prophet, Glen Elendra or Ertai. Getting Ashnod's Altar or other 3cc spells may be more useful. I need more ways to get sac outlets besides wargate, fabricate, enlightened tutor.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
I could see problems with Birthing Pod as well but primarily in the fact that you have a lower creature count and a lot less ETB abilities. It is a very good card but not for every list by any means. The sorcery speed of it while being a limitation is not really a dealbreaker when it is being used in the right list.
EDIT: just looking at your list and I thought Revoke Existence was a bit of an odd add. Have you considered perhaps Oblation, Bant Charm, Krosan Grip or Path to Exile instead? Normally I would probably recommend Return to Dust instead but you already have it.
Also how has Aura Shards panned out for you??? I feel like your creature count is sort of a bit low for a card like this but I could be mistaken. I tried it myself and found it a bit slow to operate without token swarms.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Hmm, you are right Tezzeret the Seeker is what I wish for. It's going in. Revoke Existence removes stuff, permanently. Just like Return to Dust. The most broken cards in my meta are enchantments and artifacts (Uril, Mono Black, Arcum) so its a huge plus when they are just gone. Aura Shards is decent for its repeatable usage. With a little over 20 creatures if I can get 2-3 triggers I'm usually very satisfied. It's preferable to a board wipe as I can keep my enchantments and artifacts. I've almost always gotten at least one activation from it. I'd agree its slow, but rarely does anyone go out of their way to kill it.
Oblation is a nice tuck card, but 2 cards is bad, they can still get it back, and some cards like Uril are untargettable. Thus I've never really considered putting it in my deck.
Krosan Grip is good. Friends have used it to stop me from going off as I've tried to combo out. The thing I have against it is it's 1:1, and isn't recurrable. I've had this in and out.
Bant Charm: It's cost is the main issue I have with it. Having to keep 3 mana, 1 of each color, open to cast it is a pain
Path to Exile: Good card, just not too keen on ramping opponent.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Plus they are very useful outside of creature hate as they can stop combos from going off or stupid things like Tooth and Nail from executing.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Null Brooch and LED tend to elimate my hand. Against Uril I'm just going to have to hope Phyrexian Metamorph and Phantasmal Image are sufficient. As far as counters go Glen Elendra is usually enough. When I get Glen Elendra out I know I can go off without interruptions.
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Don't click on the actual name but like off to the right on the same line and you will be able to change it.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Thanks for that tidbit, and how to setup a sig =)
I thought about this and decided Vorinclex and Palinchron were too high cc. Of the two I liked Palinchron more but unless its going to finish my opponent by itself I'd prefer smaller pieces. A 0cc and 4cc are much more palatable to me than the 5 or 6cc Mirari's Wake or Mana Reflection and a 7cc. I guess another plus with Palinchron would be I could cut 2 cards and net 1 free slot, but Aurioks does let me bring back cards like skullclamp, tormod's crypt, a krosan gripped top, mana crypt, and sol ring in addition to the LED. Overall for the lower cc I prefer the LED and Aurioks route to infinite mana. Weird Harvest, Tooth and Nail can pick Trinket Mage and Aurioks. While 1 card is not able to assemble the Palinchron combo. As to the risk associated with LED, my deck plays cards fairly quickly and I rarely wind up holding much in hand after turn 5 or 6. I don't crack LED before I clear out most of my hand, unless I'm doing in response after playing windfall or timetwister
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL