This thread is past its 6-Year Anniversary!! I am celebrating with a major overhaul for the mobile users out there - making the Primer both more beautiful and more navigable (clickable links to/from the Table of Contents!) Thanks to all of you for the views, comments, and support over these years. I'm excited to keep it going in the future!
Hello everyone, and welcome to my Niv-Mizzet thread! This boss of a dragon was the very first in-the-flesh general I ever built around - way back in the day when this format was called "EDH". Unfortunately, the first iteration wasn't so hot, and the deck was disassembled only a few weeks later.... now, after extensive research and over EIGHT YEARS of playtesting, iterating, and tuning, I present to you this deck! As an avid MTG fan, I've been around the game (on and off) for about fifteen years and have dabbled in virtually every format. Fortunately for me and unfortunately for my wallet, I discovered EDH (Commander) back in 2008 - I immediately made like a fish and got hooked. Aside from the occasional Limited / Sealed event, I haven't played a single game of another format since!
As for me, I'm a graduate student in engineering at MIT - so, needless to say, I'm the type that loves not only challenges and puzzles, but also lots of socializing - Magic is the perfect medium! Not to mention, it's a great way to spend some quality time with old friends.
That said, I sometimes get caught up in my work, so if you have any questions or would like to discuss anything here, please feel free to email me at the address above (please also post in this thread, so I can respond publicly). I look forward to hearing from you!
Niv-Mizzet is the draconic leader and parun of the Izzet League and is at least 15,000 years old. His intellect exceeds the intellect of standard mortals by several echelons, and he is known for many ingenious inventions that currently serve the citizens of Ravnica, the most well known being the almost indestructible, yet easily usable and forgeable metal, mizzium.
Niv Mizzet, the Firemind is arguably my most favorite card in all of magic. Why? Because he's just so fun. No, he isn't the most powerful dragon in the game, but he's far and away the most interesting! Extra card draw, obvious room for building around, EXTREMELY fun colors, and the opportunity to utilize cards that might otherwise never see play? Yes, please! Niv-Mizzet is, bar-none, my personal favorite general. However, he's also well-liked by those I play with, making him unique among other powerful control / combo generals. This is a combo deck where EVERYONE has fun with - regardless of whether they're the pilot or the enemy!
While Niv-Mizzet is deeply interesting on his own, the Izzet Guild brings something entirely new to the table: a delicate - but wildly entertaining - combination of chaos and control. In all my years playing Commander, I'venever seen another deck cause anywhere near as many unique and interesting gamestates.
Let's summarize:
Why play Niv-Mizzet?
His triggered ability is fun, abusable, and unique in all of Magic.
His colors grant access to a whole slew of unique strategies, mixing the control of blue with the chaos of red.
Disclaimer: Though seemingly simple on the surface, this deck can offers unique interactions, numerous on-the-fly options, and complicated decisions. It requires a pilot who will not only respect what it is, but love it enough to dive in and truly understand the incredible depth of interaction at his hands. However, I don't say this to dissuade you - only to encourage you to spend some genuine time with it! This deck will be fun and interesting from the get-go, and will continue to deliver, game after game. Even after hundreds of games, I continually discover neat "tricks", and I've not only grown to love the deck even more, but have also grown as a M:tG player. So, try it out... and keep trying it out! I'd bet my money you'll walk away with a smile.
You will enjoy this deck if:
You love drawing cards
You trust your deck to get the job done...
...in wild and unexpected ways
You like "living on the edge, man, because doing things the normal way is boring"
You never want to see the same gamestate twice. Ever.
You like a deck with puzzles... the "solutions" to which change with every action, turn, and match.
You value fun and interactivity over a straightforward gameplan
You like counterspells. There, I said it.
You like making CRAZY plays to get out of sticky situations (I was once decked by another player down to one card, about to die to my own Thought Reflection.... at upkeep, I cast Brainstorm and used my own Hinder on it. Drew the top (and previously, the only) card in my library along with Brainstorm, avoided death-by-decking, played Elixir of Immortality, and activated it to get my entire graveyard back into my library... ultimately going on to win the game!)
Capture of Jingzhou - I suspect this will see a reprint before long, either as a promo or in an eternal reprint set. More turns are very, very good.
Diminishing Returns - I've avoided this one for quite a while for fear of its drawback; but it may make an appearance yet, swapping in for the more expensive Reforge the Soul. Cmon Wizards, give us something new and spicy in Amonkhet!
Dissolve - Stapling card filtering to a 3 cmc hard counter is quite strong - but I just don't know what would go...
Mystic Confluence - In the vein of Cryptic Command... but 4 -> 5 cmc really is a massive difference. Again, not sure what would go.
Plea for Power - Likely will never see day in this list, but something I'm considering with the recent addition of so many Cost-Reducers.
Serum Visions - Perhaps the strongest candidate for inclusion, it trails closely behind Brainstorm and its ilk in power.
Coalition Relic - A good mana rock, but I've already removed most of the rocks at 3 cmc and I'm not sure if this will stay.
Reforge the Soul - RR is a bummer (the last dual-R in the list, excluding our commander), and 5 cmc is overcosted due to the Miracle effect (which we rarely ever hit). Diminishing Returns may make its entrance in this slot.
There are TONS of Niv-Mizzet decks out there... why should I try yours?
Because, in my honest opinion, the vast majority of Niv decks are flat-out boring.
A New Idea
It takes only a quick forum search to find plenty of run-of-the-mill Niv-Mizzet control decks - most often, Red/Blue "goodstuff" with a side of Curiosity, Ophidian Eye, or Mind Over Matter for tasty infinite-combo wins. When I originally built this deck, I wanted to go in another direction, and so I invented handcycling:
Handcycling: /hand-sahy-kling/ - Noun
The abuse of powerful, efficient, and aggressively costed Timetwister
effects for the purpose of generating overwhelming card advantage, dominating
the boardstate, rushing to victory, and most importantly, having fun.
You'll notice I mentioned Timetwister. And that Timetwister is directly to the right. And that Timetwister is right there at the top of the page, too. Yeah, Timetwister is good, and it's the perfect card for explaining this deck's play philosophy. Remember it for later.
Let's take a closer look at Niv-Mizzet's rules text:
This is the phrase it all began with - reason being, Niv-Mizzet only cares that you DRAW cards. It doesn't matter what happens to them after that, or where they go. We'll come back to this in a bit.
"Typical" Niv-Mizzet Decks
Now, as I mentioned, plenty of other decks take the Red/Blue "goodstuff" approach, and will almost universally toss in the high-cost "bomb" draw spells: Braingeyser, Blue Sun's Zenith, Mind Spring, Stroke of Genius, etc. There are two common themes between all of them: you can add a LOT of cards to your hand, and they are usually RIDICULOUSLY expensive. The reason these decks play these cards is quite clear - to activate Niv-Mizzet! However, this comes at the cost of efficiency, speed, and resources. And, there's an even more important question:
You just spent 6UU drawing cards...
...now how the heck do you actually play all of them before discard?
Short Answer:
You Can't.
...Unless you have something like Dream Halls on the board, but I'll discuss it at length later on.
The sad truth is, in most cases, card draw in Niv-Mizzet decks is NOT optimized to find answers and generate TRUE card advantage - it's used to slowly ping away at your opponent, wasting time, mana, and, most importantly, versatility. Niv pilots are wasting their card slots on more and more draw cards - which, when used, draw into... more draw cards! There must be a better way....
Old vs. New
Now, let's take a look at that card Timetwister - I think I mentioned it before. It lets you draw seven cards and recycle your entire graveyard for the incredible cost of 2U. Let's compare it to a Mind Spring which you decide to cast for 7UU. There are three key differences:
Timetwister hits both you and your opponent(s).
Timetwister forces you - and your opponent(s) - to abandon your current hands.
Timetwister is actually playable. Just kidding - but, it IS much cheaper at only a THIRD the mana cost!
By playing Timetwister, you're giving up your entire hand for a completely random set of new cards... something which most magic players are absolutely terrified of. Yet, is this really a bad thing? When you have AMAZING cards in your hand, you usually play them out very quickly, leaving yourself with narrow - and potentially useless - cards in-hand.... cards you often wouldn't mind tossing away. Very often, a new set of 7 will only be a good thing - and a VERY good thing if your deck is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to encounter these situations regularly.
But, of course, your opponent gets a new hand too! Isn't that bad? Well, sometimes yes, and sometimes no. Worst-case, you're giving him new ammunition, and the both of you will be on fairly even ground. However, more commonly, you're destroying his plans. That fat bomb he's been sitting on for 5 turns? Shuffled back into the deck. The key combo piece he just tutored for and which is sitting on the top of his deck? He shouldn't have wasted the mana to find it. His mental state? Shaken, because all of a sudden he can't plan his moves - his deck isn't designed for this style of play, and you're robbing him of some of the most powerful tools in the game. Paired with a bounce spell, Handcycling is a brutal form of removal. Not to mention, Timetwister resets your graveyard too, replenishing silver bullets and ensuring you don't accidentally deck yourself (don't laugh - it's a VERY real concern with most Niv decks!)
Let's take a moment now to return to something I mentioned a little earlier:
Niv-Mizzet only cares that you DRAW cards. It doesn't matter what happens to them after that, or where they go.
So, as far as Nivvy is concerned, Mind Spring for 7UU and Timetwister for 2U may as well be the same thing.
Still think that extra 5U is worth it?
Handcycling at Work
So by now you may agree with me that Timetwister is pretty darn good. But it's far from the only one - we have access to Wheel of Fortune, Time Spiral, Winds of Change, interesting tech like Whirlpool Warrior, and others. There are lots of options out there, all of which are efficient and well-suited to this sort of deck.
As you've probably deduced, the central theme to a handcycling strategy is:
Don't ADD to your hand. REPLACE it.
To summarize the main benefits of a handcycling card like Timetwister:
Reload your hand
Disrupt your opponent's gameplan
Open slots in the deck for other, much-needed spells
Recycle spent ammunition in the graveyard
Protect yourself against mill strategies
Dig for answers and combo pieces, often at instant-speed (i.e. paired with Vedalken Orrery)
Leave mana open for counterspells and protection
Activate Niv-Mizzet for a fraction of the cost of hard card-draw
Ever tried them? They're powerful, quick, and efficient. Fun? Perhaps. But isn't there a more exciting way? Interesting? No, because the same thing happens every time. Creative? Heh.
Long story short, this deck skips the infinite combos. Yet, it gives up very little in power and is orders of magnitude more fun because of it! But, if you absolutely can't be swayed from going infinite, well... the obvious candidate for inclusion is Mox Lotus
Now if infinitely abusing Niv-Mizzet is what you want (I'm guessing that's what you actually meant), take a stab at Ophidian Eye, Curiosity, and/or Mind Over Matter.
I actually highly, highly recommend playing with these three cards for a while.
When you and your playgroup are bored of seeing the same combo (and often, an uninspiring and inefficient list for managing the combo), come back here and see what a truly competitive, yet non-infinite list can do
It is well accepted that Magic decks tend to fall within the confines of three general archetypes: Aggro, Combo, and Control, discussed further here. While Commander offers many opportunities to blur these lines, Niv-Mizzet plays very heavily on the "Combo" side of things, with a small dash of Control. Before going any further, let's clear up one thing:
In general, combo is the least-liked Commander archetype. In fact, people don't just dislike it, they HATE it. They hate playing WITH it, and they hate playing AGAINST it.
Let me explain:
Historically, combo decks win a game by way of abusing a combination of cards. In most cases, these cards aren't merely good together - they're GREAT together! So great, in fact, that once a combo begins "going off", no one else can typically do anything to stop it.
There are two main problems with combo in Commander:
Commander is all about INTERACTION, between both cards and people. Combo decks actively neglect both of these - they choose the most streamlined, efficient path to victory, at the expense of human interaction. When they win, the game just... "ends", suddenly and uninterestingly.
Combo tends to win or fizzle very quickly. Which means, either the game is linear and boring for everyone else (combo wins), or the player quickly becomes irrelevant to the game (combo fails).
In most cases, players respond to combo decks in a straightforward manner - by just killing them. Yes, a powerful combo deck pilot will get his glorious victory the first time. But from then on, a heavy combo deck will just be targeted before it goes off, and you'll never actually get to pilot the deck as intended. In short, multiplayer commander players WANT interaction, and they DON'T WANT predictable, linear victories. If you try to change this, you will die - and even the BEST combo deck won't be able to handle 3-4 strong, competitive decks breathing down its neck.
For a Combo deck to survive in a multiplayer environment, game after game, it must break the standard "archetype" of combo - it must be FUN, both to play with, and to play against. In my experience, there are three "golden rules" which must be followed to achieve this:
If you win with a rapid and linear/boring combo, you will be hated out. Raw speed is not necessarily the issue; linearity with speed is... because it gives the illusion of non-interactivity. It's OK to win quickly, but if you do so, it is best to do so in an interesting way and while granting (at the very least) the illusion of interactivity for the other players (even if there is nothing they can truly do to stop you!!)
Do not deny players interaction with the game. Hard-locks are not well-liked - for example, even if both stick around for just one turn cycle, there is a massive difference in perception between The Abyss and Merciless Executioner. The end result (after one turn) is more or less the same, but the perception is not; be aware of this.
Do not win with a linear, 2-3 card combo - "Win with Flair". Not only do 2-3 card combos become predictable (and frankly, not that fun to play with), but they contribute to the sudden and surprising "Game-Over" situations, ultimately creating an arms-race between pilots to include the right silver bullets in their decks to counter one another and ensure their own victory. Building an efficient and versatile deck means your win condition can be both less linear AND more powerful; having many options for action/reaction is always a good thing.
So, can I play combo at all?
Yes, of course! When you follow these golden rules, combo magically becomes "acceptable" at Commander tables - all you need to do is ensure the game remains interesting and interactive - and that, when you win, you are not always met with a chorus of groans. In short, combo decks are "OK" if they are built and played keeping in mind that this is a social, multiplayer format (though, that doesn't mean it can't be a strong list!)
This is the philosophy which makes this particular Niv-Mizzet list unique among the others - this decklist was constructed by considering not only the potential paths (and obstacles) to achieving victory, but also how other players at the table will be thinking and feeling.
Players are far more powerful than cards are - remember that!
This deck doesn't want to dominate the board - it simply can't, as we are primarily in Blue. The deck is tuned for smooth tempo on turns 1-4; establishing an engine turns 3-7; and seeking a win on turns 5-8+, all the while maintaining a healthy hand size and versatile suite of answers (primarily, counters to both spells and abilities). Pushing much faster than this risks both a drop in consistency AND greater likelihood that your opponents can predict your pace. It is very important that you understand the following: Perhaps the greatest asset of this build is that the exact timing/turn of the "win" is hard to predict. It is very important not to telegraph how close you are to going off... by appearing 1-2 turns further than you truly are, your opponents will invest in their own board states 1-2 turns longer than they should, granting you just enough runway to combo out. This is a major goal of the list - to maintain fast tempo, build card advantage, and assemble a win condition just slightly more quickly than anyone actually expects.
More overtly "aggro" decks will attract more early-game hate; slower decks will simply not be able to keep up. By generating tempo and card advantage without creating a menacing board presence, you indirectly buy yourself some protection - and someone else usually sticks out as the "pressing issue" at the table.
Early Game: Turns 1-4
The early game is all about ramp and draw filtering (unless you need to hold a counter for a crucial opponent). We play spells each turn, but tend not to build a menacing board presence; hitting land drops, 1-2 ramp pieces, and 1-2 other card-advantage permanents is plenty of steam. In the grand scheme of things, the deck comes out of the gates very quickly... after all, it is built to compete at a high level. However, it does not explode in the way Hermit Druid combo, and others, do. If you are among less competitive decks, you may be able to simply race them to a fast (but FUN AND INTERESTING!) win. If your opponents are likewise playing competitive builds, you'll need to time your drops carefully - you want to generate tempo, but ideally, let someone else eat the first round or two of removal.
Mid Game: Turns 4-6
The mid-game is typically where the various decks begin to sharply diverge in their plays. Here, we still want to hit land drops and mana rocks - but the focus begins to shift towards finding the appropriate combo pieces and holding up answers to our opponents' wincons. Permanents like Rhystic Study, Leyline of Anticipation, and Vedalken Orrery may be able to get through - though at this point, there are likely other, more threatening (or at least, perceived-to-be-threatening) things on the board. Draw filtering a-la Sensei's Divining Top and the many low-cmc spells continues, while expending fetchlands as needed to refresh the top of your library and keep sorting through your deck. You should still be careful not to telegraph your timeline; don't make yourself a target. For opposing threats - you are actually quite well equipped to deal with threatening spells at this point in the game - but you don't want to counter things unless you have to, as the tempo is best spent quietly pushing towards your own win (and you don't want to attract unneeded attention). Unless something is going to kill you VERY quickly / with a HIGH degree of certainty, or generates massive disparities in card advantage, consider simply letting it go. You'll attract less negative attention while conserving resources for your own use. This deck is VERY counterspell heavy, but they are NOT here for you to counter spells willy-nilly. Rather, the counterspell number is high to ensure that you can protect your win condition and prevent opponent victories.
Late Game: Turns 7+
Late-game is when this deck absolutely shines. If you make it there with even a single "engine" or two, you're in GREAT shape. However, LATE GAME IS VERY COMPLEX! I have NEVER seen another deck with anywhere near the number of choices, decisions, and options as this deck offers in the late-game. As such, I see it fitting to discuss this part of the game in a section which is entirely its own.
In the most condensed explanation possible, this deck achieves victory by:
Casting Niv-Mizzet
Drawing cards until all opponents have received lethal damage
There are obviously quite a few ways this can be done. However, this deck focuses on the aforementioned "handcycling" effect. That is, it seeks to create a boardstate where Niv-Mizzet is in play, with a handcycling card in hand - say, Timetwister. You cast Timetwister, recycling graveyards and giving yourself an entirely new hand. In the process, you draw seven (or more) new cards - the idea being, you can then cast another handcycling card, repeating the process so-on-and-so-forth until everyone else has taken lethal damage. See, at its core, this deck is actually pretty simple!
"That sounds so risky! How do you know you can kill everyone?
And how do you avoid drawing into a poor hand and dropping the combo?"
You're right! With this approach, you need to be able to chain multiple rounds of handcycling into one another without dropping the combo or running out of mana - a VERY real concern! You'll also notice that the number of handcycling cards in the deck is actually fairly low - at the time of writing this, only nine are in the deck... chances actually aren't very great that you'll draw into another handcycling effect! Remember, however: the entire rest of the deck is devoted to supporting or protecting those nine spells. So, how does this work?
Cards in this deck can generally be classified as:
Handcyclers - Cards which actually cause "drawing" to occur, dealing damage and "reloading" your hand.
Draw multipliers - Just what the description sounds like. These allow your handcycling cards to quickly propel you to victory, quickening the combo and significantly reducing your chances of "running out of steam".
Flash-Enablers - The ability to cast sorceries, Niv-Mizzet, Consecrated Sphinx, etc. at instant speed is a CRUCIAL element in snowballing just before the table thinks you're ready to.
Cost-Reducers - These provide massive early/mid-game tempo and also go far to enable late-game combos. Cost-Reducers combined with a very low curve mean that casting cards for 1/3 or 1/2 their usual cost is not uncommon... in a deck which relies on chaining multiple spells for the victory, doubling your threat density is very strong. In a pinch, these can be strong enough to combo off of alone. Some even come with a looting/scrying bonus on top, which is pure gravy for us!
Cost-Cheaters - The true combo enablers of the deck, these allow you to play spells ad infinitum (assuming you continue to draw new hands). This game is ALL about mana - so eliminating that from your list of "problems" makes you far, far more likely to combo off. Show and Tell is easily fetched and used to cheat Dream Halls/Omniscience into play.
Looting & Draw-Filtering - These smooth the early game and help chain together the late-game; chances are, none of these are unfamiliar to you, such is their prevalence in other formats. I truly believe it's a mistake that most Commander players overlook these in favor of flashier, higher-CMC spells... simply put, every list should be running most or all of these!
Mana Rocks - As with every competitive list, tempo and ramp is crucial in the early game. That said, each mana rock must have a very specific purpose - either providing great return-on-investment (taps for multiple mana), or entering the battlefield very quickly. Many stalwarts of Commander are noticeably missing, primarily due to the low curve and fast tempo of the deck; we simply don't have the slots for anything but the very best.
Lands - Compared to many, the land suite here is actually rather bland, with a heavy focus on basic Islands. This is not without its purpose and there are two very good reasons for this choice: (a) High Tide, which is so strong it simply can't be ignored in a primarily blue list; and (b) nonbasic land hate. We play the best dual lands and 7 fetches, which is more than enough to satisfy the few R costs here; there is only one RR cost, and most utility lands simply don't cut it compared to Island and High Tide.
Top-Deck Toolbox - Enabling you to abuse interactions (e.g. Future Sight + Sensei's Divining Top) or more efficiently dig for answers / key combo pieces. Do not ignore the power of fetchlands in this regard! A (virtually) free topdeck shuffle effect is very, very strong here.
Protection / Support / Tutors - Everything else. Tutors, counterspells, board wipes, and a smattering of cards designed to help out in all stages of the game.
Flash-Enablers grow in importance as the game goes on, and as your opponents will be better-equipped to respond to your actions. They are crucial in top-deck toolboxing (discussed below!), tutoring for responses on-the-fly, or handcycling in response to another spell (often with the intent of cycling into a response to that spell). It is not uncommon for this deck to "Timetwister in response", draw a counterspell, and defuse the threat - a play that is not only fun and exciting, but also quite effective ("Flash for everything" really opens up some amazing options!). Luckily, the power of these cards is often overshadowed by other things on the board, and people often forget the true strength of flashing anything in whenever you like - so you may not have to be quite as careful about protecting these.
Sticking a "Draw Multiplier" to the battlefield greatly improves your chances of comboing out. Yet, don't be willy-nilly; you want to be able to protect these, and abuse them immediately. Not only are Alhammarret's Archive and Consecrated Sphinx your primary win-conditions, they are also generally MASSIVE targets in Commander. Don't drop them unless you are confident you can get the most out of them immediately, and/or have great options for protecting them (or, are in desperate need of a way to claw back into a nearly-lost game). Don't just "drop one" because you can pay for it - they will eat removal almost immediately, and you'll be significantly set back on your timeline!
Omniscience and Dream Halls are incredibly powerful, and can single-handedly lead your deck to victory. Once casting costs have been avoided using one of these, the full resources of the deck become available, allowing you to tutor, handcycle, and cast spells without any regard for leaving mana open (not to mention.... counterspells!). Keep in mind that Dream Halls can be a two-edged sword, though - it can enable you to combo out much more quickly than you otherwise could (or lets you endlessly recast Niv-Mizzet, avoiding the growing mana cost), but your opponents gain the same advantage... ahem, the word "Teferi" comes to mind Be careful!
In a perfect world, an "ideal combo" would look like:
Have 1-2 counterspells in-hand to answer opponents
Chain various handcycling effects to win the game through damage
In reality, this exact path is rarely possible - very often one (or more) components in the above list won't be available to you... but that's why this deck has so many tools at your disposal! Counterspells and Vedalken Orrery / Leyline of Anticipation allow you to respond in a multitude of ways; extra turns and lots of mana (lands, High Tide, Cost-Reducers, and artifacts) can get you there when you don't have Dream Halls and Omniscience; and the topdeck toolbox can often find the right tools for you when Alhammarret's Archive / Consecrated Sphinx are nowhere to be seen. There are a million and one ways to win the game - have fun exploring its capabilities, and always take a second look at your options before you ever pass a turn!
Unfortunately, there is no easy answer to this question, as it ALL depends on your playgroup. If you're playing against less competitive "goldfish" decks (or decks light on removal in general), an early Niv can be a major tempo boost, drawing you extra cards and picking off small utility creatures. However, at more competitive tables you will be very lucky if he survives a round of turns - people know these are "combo" colors and they know Niv is a "combo" general. When he hits the table, people rush to respond, simply because they don't know what you're up to. At a table with strong opponents, Niv will immediately attract attention. Competitive EDH players know what he can do once he lands. But, this can be used to your advantage: by refusing to play Niv-Mizzet until the very moment you are ready to combo off, you will avoid attention and hate and people will think you're a turn or two behind where you really are (remember, most people are used to wincons relying on Niv-Mizzet's tap ability, which is subject to summoning sickness). If multiple turns pass where you could have played him and didn't, other players will likely notice this and deem you a less important threat than others.
In the end, it all depends on your playgroup. In some cases it may actually be beneficial to squeak him out early - in others, you'll need to drop him the very turn you win, using Omniscience / Dream Halls to cast everything. This said, as a general rule: The better your playgroup, the less "Battlefield" time Niv-Mizzet should see. To pilot this deck at its best, you will need to learn who you're playing with!
While you may already be familiar with cards like Sensei's Divining Top and Future Sight, you may not have seen them abused in the way this deck does. In this application, the strength of top-deck manipulation is that it allows you to quickly and efficiently answer significant problems or continue combo chains. Most often, this means gaining access to additional counterspells or handcycling cards. The "Top-Deck Suite" consists of:
Of these, Sensei's Divining Top and Future Sight are the most powerful, as they grant immediate access to playing the top card(s) of your deck. With this package, not only can you rearrange your topdeck and fix your draws, but you can gain access to cards you otherwise couldn't "nab" in a pinch. Obviously, these topdeck manipulation tools are powerful for digging through your deck more quickly, but the effects are magnified many-fold by the inclusion of shuffle effects and top-deck tutors.Mystical Tutor, for example, becomes far better as you have immediate access to the card you just found. This means you can search for a crucial counterspell or quickly access the final handcycling effect you need to close out the game. Moreover, the incredible number of shuffle effects (fetchlands, tutors, and Timetwister-effects) means your topdeck will constantly be changing. This is the reason for including all seven compatible fetchlands - by paying a single life, you open up multiple new opportunities for responding to your opponents or continuing your combo. Don't have an answer to an opponent's Planar Cleansing? Pop a fetchland and see what turns up.
This package works well with Leyline of Anticipation / Vedalken Orrery, with Future Sight being the star of the show (toss Dream Halls in there and things escalate quickly!). This allows you to quickly burn through multiple cards, or to handcycle in response to a threatening spell. Also, with both Sensei's Top and Future Sight in play, you gain the ability to draw as many cards as you like, for the measly price of 1 per card - a classic combo and truly powerful indeed!
Though many experienced players will already know this, I CANNOT stress enough the importance of finding Sensei's Divining Top early in the game. It is a $15 uncommon for a reason! It will help your early-game curve enormously and landing an early Top is a SIGNIFICANT advantage - not to mention the extra benefits I mentioned above. Do not carelessly cut this card from your deck as it's one of the very best in this format and only improves with the interactions available here.
Time Reversal / Time Spiral / Timetwister - Draw-7's with graveyard recycling, these are, in my opinion, the core handcycling cards. Unfortunately, these are all that are available without drawbacks.
Winds of Change / Tolarian Winds / Wheel of Fortune - Cheapest handcycling available, some at instant speed. Selected for efficiency, as multiple spells will need to be chained the turn you're pushing to win.
Reforge the Soul - A final Draw-7. More mana-intensive than I'd like (I don't plan on hitting the miracle cost often, if at all), but very, very useful when you need to reload an empty hand.
Whirlpool Warrior - Creature-based cycling, and offers a second cycling effect which only costs R and can be activated at instant speed.
DRAW MULTIPLIERS
Alhammarret's Archive / Consecrated Sphinx- Simply the best options out there. Somewhat expensive, but well-worth the cost. Land one and you instantly gain the opportunity to combo-out, but be careful about drawing hate and removal. Sphinx is great when you're forcing the table to draw (Draw-7's or Mikokoro), while Archive works with virtually everything else you use.
COST-REDUCERS
Baral, Chief of Compliance - Baral is simply incredible here. We play ~40 instants and sorceries, so making them all 1 cheaper for just 2 CMC is good enough on its own. Add in the card advantage from his looting bonus and we have a winner.
Sapphire Medallion - Here for the same reasons as Baral - reduced costs are incredibly powerful when playing multiple spells per turn (if you play three spells, this is effectively a Thran Dynamo for 2, with a smaller target on its back).
Jace's Sanctum - Starting to repeat myself here... reduced costs are amazing! Scrying is amazing! We pack a massive density of instants and sorceries - what more is there to say?
Mizzix of the Izmagnus - Mizzix has a larger target on his back, but he quickly spirals out of control here. I was initially unsure about him due to the relatively high cost, but he's simply game-winning if not immediately answered.
COST-CHEATERS
Show and Tell - In here specifically for the purpose of cheating out Dream Halls and Omniscience (not only is it cheaper, but it also benefits from Cost-Reducers, often only costing you U). In a pinch it can also drop Consecrated Sphinx. Fetchable via tutors, it circumvents many usual mana restrictions and allows you to explode very quickly.
Dream Halls - This card should speak for itself, but in a deck packed with so many Draw-7's, this allows you to combo virtually endlessly. You get to play things for FREE, but so does everyone else - so be careful about when you play it and how you use it (it's nice to have Teferi out for this reason, so you're protected during combo). It takes some practice to build intuition for when to play this card, and how to use it properly.
Omniscience - Incredibly powerful, just as you would imagine. If this resolves, you SHOULD be able to win the turn you cast it (and you shouldn't cast it that turn if you can't, or the table will kill you immediately). Useful for getting out of tight spaces in a pinch, eliminates the need for stressful (and unfun / time-wasting) math, and just "cool". Expensive, but still worth it here.
FLASH-ENABLERS
Leyline of Anticipation / Vedalken Orrery - Discussed at length above, these allow for wild responses to other players' threats, or for incredible, extended combos. The ability to play any spell at instant speed is absolutely game-changing.
Trinket Mage / Fabricate - Basically, these are only here to quickly find Sensei's Divining Top / Sol Ring / Mana Crypt.
LOOTING AND DRAW FILTERING
Brainstorm / Faithless Looting / Ponder / Preordain / Impulse - I don't think I've ever been sad to see these, they are simply too good not to include. They are fantastic at generating tempo and card advantage in the early game, and allow the combo to be chained in the late-game.
Dack Fayden - A fantastic repeatable looting effect with the potential to nab Sol Rings and Gilded Lotuses. He is everything we need.
Fact or Fiction - The fact this is an instant makes this one of the strongest digging cards in the game (and I should have included it much sooner than I did). Like Impulse, this can do wonders to improve the early-game curve, as well as enable your late-game combos (or, find a key counterspell!). More notes:
- FoF can be cast at instant speed, meaning any mana I might have left open for counterspells can be used instead of wasted (if there is nothing worth countering). This means - not only can I cast a shadow of power and potentially prevent a big spell or two (opponents getting timid seeing open mana for counterspells), but I can then use that mana for something useful regardless of what happens
- Having the power to dig 5-cards deep at literally any time cannot be overstated (you can FoF in response to something!!)
- Although an opponent separates the piles, you make the final choice on what you keep. Meaning you are guaranteed access to the most important card you dig out (if not more than just one card). Whether you need sweep, lands/mana rocks, handcycling, or a counter (a big bomb is on the stack) etc. you get to make that choice, while simultaneously clearing the chaff from the top of your deck (brand new fodder for Sensei's Top!).
- The draw-trigger is unimportant as that's what the handcycling is there for, and I have enough of that; increased toolboxing is what I need.
- Early-game it can find you the two sources of mana you might need to start setting things up; late game it can dig for a crucial combo piece or answer
- Together with Cost-Reducers, this is often an instant-speed Brilliant Ultimatum on-the-cheap.
Rhystic Study - Great in the early-game, especially in large multiplayer games. This pays for itself very quickly, during a phase when many people are ignoring you due to a relatively small board presence.
Cyclonic Rift - Sometimes you just need a board reset, and Rift is the best there is to offer. Together with a handcycling effect, this is incredible removal!
COUNTERSPELLS
Force of Will / Pact of Negation / Arcane Denial / Counterspell / Mana Drain - Low-cost hard-counters, allowing you to (hopefully) have the last say on key spells. Can solve early threats (before they become problems) or protect yourself later in the game.
Negate - Very strong in EDH, and, similar to Remand, excellent at protecting your combo - this deck generally doesn't care about other creatures anyway.
Counterflux / Dissipate / Forbid - 3cc hard counters, more expensive than those above but still quite effective and efficient.
Cryptic Command - Arguably (well, almost surely) the most versatile counterspell of all time, it's more expensive but can solve a host of problems by bouncing expensive / threatening permanents, or even drawing a crucial card when needed.
Glen Elendra Archmage - Aside from the initial casting cost, she is extremely cost-efficient - effectively two negates for U each. Additionally, she stays on the battlefield, meaning you can handcycle without fear of losing valuable counterspell capability.
EXTRA TURNS
Temporal Manipulation / Time Warp - Extra turns at 5cc, these are fairly aggressively costed and quite efficient. Also, these can be critical for "super-long" games - in some cases, you will draw your entire deck in a single turn - you will need this to ensure you can continue endlessly (at discard, you will discard essentially your whole library, then Elixir of Immortality / Timetwister to setup for the next turn)
Mana Crypt / Sol Ring - Stable artifact mana sources, generating 2 per tap.
Mana Vault / Grim Monolith - For powering out an early Future Sight, or extending your reach to play the game-winning Omniscience. These allow you to land big spells, whether to fly ahead of your opponents and shoot for an early combo, or to claw back from a slow start.
Everflowing Chalice - One of the best mana rocks ever printed (for EDH), this can be a just-enough small accelerant or a Thran Dynamo (or more!) later on.
Sapphire Medallion - Easy to cast early-on, this is a very useful piece of acceleration (and not nearly as threatening as Sol Ring / Gilded Lotus). Helps quite a bit in counter-wars, and this deck is very heavily in blue, so it's not a big deal that it doesn't reduce the red casting costs.
UTILITY LANDS
Ancient Tomb - It's anyone's guess why a multiplayer Commander deck wouldn't run this!
Boseiju, Who Shelters All - At a large table, this is an invaluable blanket of protection, especially for punching a combo through. You really only use it when it needs to count, but boy does it fulfill that role like a champ.
Mikokoro, Center of the Sea - Great for working with Sensei's Divining Top, or digging a little more in a pinch. Also great when used with the top-deck tutors. With Niv out, these two allow you to quickly dig through three spells per turn, increasing the viability of the topdeck package.
Minamo, School at Water's Edge - Nothing stellar, but can potentially net you an extra card per turn with Niv, which can be crucial in digging through your deck (or, to block in a pinch!).
Oboro, Palace in the Clouds - Avoids mass land destruction. Otherwise, essentially an island (at a table where others might be played, you may just play an island to avoid the legend rule headache)
Shinka, the Bloodsoaked Keep - Similar to Oboro - might be useful in the right situation, but otherwise, essentially a mountain.
This decklist is far from cheap - as a rough estimate, the cards included will run you $2500-3000 to assemble everything.
That said, I would STRONGLY encourage you to proxy up the full list and play around with it first! This way, you will have some first-hand experience playing this (very unique) version, and can make the appropriate changes for your budget.
Of course, because this is a combo deck, every mana counts... the most powerful instant-speed interactions often have no direct budget substitute. Proxy the list and sleeve it up for 10 games, and then once you've got a good feel for both how it works AND why it works, you will be able to make better decisions for budget replacement and meta tuning. Hopefully your playgroup is OK with proxies, especially the more expensive cards (e.g. Timetwister, which in my opinion simply cannot be replaced). Remember that EDH is a fun format; most playgroups are perfectly OK with letting you use a few proxies!
If you do decide to make changes, I would replace cards in the following order:
Fetchlands; can be replaced by Evolving Wilds, Terramorphic Expanse (be careful about substituting out the fetchlands - the cheap shuffle effect is crucial for comboing with the topdeck toolbox)
The following replacements may seriously influence the playstyle of the deck and I don't recommend them, but they are a last-ditch option if absolutely necessary:
Day's Undoing can replace Timetwister, but with more tight constraints (you really need a flash-enabler with this one).
Temporal Cascade can also replace Timetwister, albeit for three times the mana investment (note, with Omniscience, you will still need to pay the entwine cost)
Tutors are rather pricey, and it's hard to get around that. Planar Portal could be a solution, albeit a mana-intensive one.
Again, I strongly encourage you to proxy the deck in its prime form before making changes. Unfortunately, the very spirit of this deck rests with some of the most expensive cards, and making substitutions will quickly shift the playstyle away from that discussed here.
Remember, Commander/EDH exists as a fun and social format; encourage (a reasonable number of) proxies in your playgroup, as they open countless doors for fun and creativity!
- Cost - Is the effect worth the cost? Is the card cheap enough to be relevant at all points in the game? If not, is the effect gamebreaking enough to justify it?
- Speed - Can it be played at instant speed on an opponent's end step?
- Synergy - Does it help the deck to win in the ways it wants to? Does it synergize with the handcycling combo, or setup crazy instant-speed plays?
- Slots - Do we already have enough cards which have a certain effect?
Creatures
Arcanis the Omnipotent - Cost, Speed - At 6 mana, he's not only expensive, but he also has a massive target painted on his back. Lack of haste means he generally provides little to no return and is dead and gone by the time we could activate him. We have no way to abuse his ability; doing so would require multiple card slots which we don't have. Unlike Consecrated Sphinx, he does not enable any game-breaking combos either.
Clone/Gilded Drake - Synergy - Without a juicy target on the battlefield, these aren't very useful. Even if strong creatures are out, if they don't somehow enable our victory (i.e. copying an opponent's Consecrated Sphinx), it doesn't provide much real utility towards achieving victory.
Dominus of Fealty - Speed, Synergy - A strong card, but it really has nothing to do with the rest of the deck, costs far too much, and doesn't have any immediate impact. It's predictable, draws hate immediately, and never lives long enough to actually make an impact.... and if he does, he can only steal one thing. Very underwhelming.
Dragon Mage - Cost, Speed - Wheel of Fortune, every turn! ....If you every play him that is, and succeed in damaging someone. Slow, not combo-compatible, draws hate, and overall inefficient. In an early version of the deck which included him for about a year or so, I never once actually played him (much less swung) because I never found an opportunity where he'd actually be that good.
Duplicant / Spin into Myth / Starstorm - Cost, Synergy - Our removal comes in the form of bounce effects; moreover, removal is not what this deck should be trying to do. If we can't counter something or bounce it, our best bet is to play innocent and let the rest of the board duke it out.
Glen Elendra Archmage - Cost - Though undoubtedly one of the best blue creatures in Commander, I find her up-front investment is just hard to stomach most of the time. She's better in a control shell which can abuse her repeatedly; here, it feels like she just holds back the tempo. I had a very tough time cutting her.
Izzet Chronarch - Cost - Similarly to Academy Ruins, spending time and mana recycling cards is an inefficient use of resources. The better thing to do is keep digging for additional useful spells and ultimately recycle those which we'll need back. At 2-3cmc he might justify a slot, but 5 is simply too much.
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth - Cost, Synergy - Huge, powerful, and a graveyard recycler. Not much else, and not synergistic with the deck. I ran him for about a day to avoid decking myself (my friend runs a mill deck), but found that I was never excited to see him, and this deck has plenty of other ways to recycle its graveyard
Laboratory Maniac - Synergy - An alternate win condition, but otherwise not useful. If we can deck ourselves and can't win, there are other issues that should be solved earlier in the game (or with our combo execution!). That said, this is an excellent out to an accidental Mindmoil + Thought Reflection which is truly a suicidal combination...
Nucklavee - Cost - Simply too expensive, way too expensive.
Psychosis Crawler - Cost, Synergy - This card appears to synergize well, but isn't actually useful until you're comboing off, when it tended to just be very win-more. Doesn't actually help you REACH that stage where you are able to abuse it. 5cmc is also a steep price. HOWEVER, if your playgroup abuses cards such as Urza's Armor / Runed Halo / Ivory Mask / Solitary Confinement effects, this is potentially the best answer.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir - This is an extreme meta choice. I've cut him because my counterspells are enough to power my wincon past the other blue players at the table - but you may find otherwise. Trouble is, he's at the top of the curve and doesn't do anything to actually generate you card advantage or ramp.
Venser, Shaper Savant - Cost - At 3cmc I would thoroughly consider including Venser, but 4 is just too high for what he does and we don't have outlets for abusing him.
Viashino Heretic - Speed, Synergy - An anti-artifact machine, this guy can be a fantastic tool, but he's just too slow to really prove his worth. If artifacts are a problem, Vandalblast is a better option
Whirlpool Drake - Slots - Unfortunately for this guy we're already saturated on handcycling effects!
Instants
Capsize - Cost, Synergy - Too expensive and we don't have the mana to make big combos with this (which is the typical reason for its inclusion). We burn through cards quickly in this deck and the Timetwister effects can get things back for us, so one-shot effects are a better choice for us as we don't bog ourselves down paying penalties to reuse spells multiple times.
Evacuation - Cost, Synergy - Simply put, our meta has shifted more towards combo in recent months, so I've taken this out because of that. However, it's probably worth including if you face aggro-heavy lists.
Hinder - Slots - We have enough counterspells already. 2cmc or less hard counters are preferred, and at 3cmc we have a few better effects.
Time Stop - Cost, Synergy - Often just an expensive counterspell, it just doesn't fit with the philosophy of cheap, efficient spells.
Twincast - Synergy - It has some great potential interactions with the rest of the list, but on its own (topdeck mode, or when stalled out) it doesn't pull its weight. Still considering it, however.
Beacon of Tomorrows - Cost - Just too expensive. A fantastic card, but this deck's rough spots are in the early/mid-game, and an early Beacon in-hand is a dead draw.
Blatant Thievery - Cost, Synergy - Again, extremely expensive and doesn't synergize with the deck's goals. Might make for some crazy plays, but does not enable the deck to win how it wants to.
Bribery - Synergy - A hard card to cut from the decklist, especially because it's so similar to Acquire. That said, Acquire's strength is its ability to ramp mana by finding Gilded Lotus or Thran Dynamo; Acquire has a very specific purpose (ramping the deck into its big spells) and is good at achieving it. Bribery is more of a mystery bullet, and its inclusion should depend on your playgroup. Keep in mind that if the creature you found dies, your opponent is now free to abuse any graveyard shenanigans he might have (a major factor in my not including this card).
Capture of Jingzhou - Slots - Fantastic card, but we don't really need any more extra-turn cards (plus, these tend to turn the table against you...)
Chaos Warp - Synergy - A card I'm still heavily considering because it's just such a fantastic answer to so many things. However, in the current build it's out because it doesn't push the deck to achieve its own endgame.
Day's Undoing - Speed - I really liked this card at first, but it's just a bit too restrictive to be truly useful. It's more or less a dead-draw in the early game (where we are weakest) so it came out.
Insurrection - Cost, Synergy - Too hit-or-miss and doesn't help the deck achieve its desired victory. Can win you games, but oftentimes it just clogs up the hand and ruins the early game. Does not synergize with this deck's endgoal of a massive combo.
Molten Psyche - Speed, Slots - There are simply better Handcyclers in the deck - this spell, at 3cmc and sorcery-speed, just isn't as good as the rest and we don't need mroe.
Past in Flames - Speed, Synergy - Like Academy Ruins, spending time toolboxing with the graveyard tends to be a waste of time and resources. Better to continue digging into the deck and efficiently setting up for the win!
Shattering Spree - Synergy - Largely unneeded now due to lower curve, greater density of counterspells, and Dack Fayden.
Temporal Cascade - Cost - Effectively a high-cost Timetwister, this card is just too expensive for what it does. At 5-6cmc for both effects, it'd probably be in... 9cmc for both is just too much.
Temporal Mastery - Cost, Slots - With so much draw and handcycling, the likelihood of a miracle-instance is much lower. Also, we don't need more Time Walk effects, especially from a political perspective - people will hate playing with you if you do it too much!
Time Stretch - Cost, Speed - A fantastic spell and one which is VERY hard to cut because it can blow games completely open. However, it's just too much of an early-game detriment to deserve a spot. Late-game it's a complete bomb, but as with Temporal Mastery above, people tend to resent too many extra turns (and we don't have trouble getting the job done with the turns we already have!)
Elixir of Immortality - Synergy - It's great when you need it, but useless the rest of the time... and "the rest of the time" is most of the time.
Howling Mine - Speed, Synergy - Doesn't benefit us until the turn after it's played, and the symmetric draw helps our opponents (multiple of them) more than it helps us!
Lightning Greaves - Niv virtually never hits the field until it's time to win, and when he does, he has great protection in the form of counterspells or Teferi. These are great in other decks and are quite powerful for what they are, but they just aren't needed here.
Mizzium Transreliquat - Cost, Synergy - 6cmc to copy an artifact just isn't worth it, if there are even worthwhile artifacts in play (in the early-game, a signet would just be a much better draw). Our deck doesn't rely on artifacts to win, only to ramp - this isn't abusable and isn't included.
Neko-Te - Synergy - Niv-Mizzet doesn't typically come out until just before the combo begins (and you're on the way to victory), so there is little use for this as it doesn't help us do a better job of actually reaching that combo stage.
Spellbook - This deck understands that you draw cards to kill your opponents, but lots of times you need to be able to recycle those cards. Getting rid of a hand limit means you have no way to pitch cards and re-draw them. Not to mention, there is enough redundancy that holding 20-30 card hands is just pointless.
Teferi's Puzzle Box - Speed - Such an interesting and exciting card, but we just can't abuse it as we'd like to; it's too slow.
- Once it hit, I was the main target for everyone. Rather than protecting me it actually gave me more attention than I would have liked. Future threats were directed at me, and anything already on the board was aimed at me. Oftentimes the easiest solution to Counterbalance is for everyone to just kill the person who played it.
- The spells that were really worth countering tended to be high-CMC, where the hit-rate with Counterbalance was low. Low-CMC spells had a higher hit-rate, but it didn't matter so much whether they were countered anyway - it just drew hate.
- Without a top-deck toolbox (Sensei's top) Counterbalance is really ineffective; with it, I wasted resources trying to setup Counterbalance rather than setting myself up for the win
- Counterbalance does not immediately pay for itself and can be answered before it actually counters anything; a typical counter gives you just one answer, but guarantees you that answer
- My goal with counterspells is ONLY to protect key combo pieces and snipe off the most game-breaking threats. 3-4 person games often equilibrate naturally and you don't have to be responsible for answering everything... trying to domineer the game at all times just brings unwanted backlash
Curiosity / Ophidian Eye / Mind Over Matter - Synergy - Great cards, and quite often instant-killers. But really, where's the fun in that? These don't leave much room for design space and make the deck stale and repetitive. More on these in the main post.
Mindmoil - Suicide - This card is incredible, and would be a superweapon if only Thought Reflection were an optional choice. Unfortunately, that is not the case, making Mindmoil a ticking timebomb of self-destruction. I've lost more "won" games than I can remember because of this card. It was extremely difficult to cut this from the list... but ultimately the choice I had to make, especially as it's not particularly strong early-game either.
Standstill - Synergy - Strong in a 1v1 game, but not so much here; we want to be playing lots of cheap, efficient spells, and this directly opposes that philosophy.
Treachery - Synergy - Just doesn't help us achieve the win we are looking for. Moreover, lots of the best creatures in the format have Shroud or Hexproof, for which this doesn't help. A powerful blue effect but it doesn't contribute to the goal of comboing off.
Planeswalkers
Ral Zarek - Synergy - Though powerful, he draws more hate than we would like - people greatly fear his ultimate. His other skills are strong, but ultimately not that useful in this deck.
Lands
Academy Ruins - Cost, Speed, Synergy - It's crucial that we hit colors early-on, so the "cost" is that an early Ruins might prevent us from playing an early Counterspell. Also, we just don't play any artifacts that really require this. Our artifact selection focuses heavily on ramping mana and using up draws to recur an artifact or two in the graveyard is just not an efficient use of time - the more important thing is to keep digging through the deck to setup a combo. This card shines when it sets up powerful combos; we just don't have those here.
Desolate Lighthouse - Cost - Producing colorless mana is just too steep a cost to justify its inclusion.
Niv-Mizzet offers significant design space for future deckbuilders, so do not be afraid to blaze your own path! For a well-documented alternative to this Primer, please visit Rowan's Niv-Mizzet Primer: Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind: Firemind's Fury. Rowan and I have developed our lists over the past few years and each is well-documented and exhaustively playtested. Despite the similarities, they offer wildly different gamestates, and Rowan's is a thoroughly impressive Niv-Mizzet variation. I encourage you to stop by his Primer!
In general, there are a few other strategies Niv-Mizzet could be built around, which I have never seen truly fleshed out:
Creature-Based Draw - Abusing Arcanis the Omnipotent, Azami, Lady of Scrolls, and other such cards to net card draw. More permanent-based, but this would offer more classic and consistent draw.
Laboratory Maniac Combo - Here, Niv-Mizzet would be a source of card advantage and board control, but not the win-condition. Instead, Laboratory Maniac offers an intriguing alternative win condition, especially when paired with combos like Crystal Ball + Tunnel Vision. Depending on your meta, you may include Laboratory Maniac in my own decklist, as he is an EXCELLENT alternative win condition and allows you to get around many other tough situations (i.e. Urza's Armor)
This weakness is problematic, as these cards cause the deck's core win condition to turn on itself. Furthermore, being that we're in Red/Blue, it's very tough to deal with enchantments (Kederekt Parasite is less of a problem). Unfortunately, the best way to overcome the enchantment challenges is a Cyclonic Rift / Devastation Tide + handcycling effect, or to counter them in the first place. Luckily very few decks run these cards so you may not have a problem, but be aware that these are out there.
Though not necessarily the biggest problems, these can cause a headache by nullifying your tutors and reducing toolboxing potential. Luckily, Aven Mindcensor is easily killed by Niv-Mizzet, but the orb is harder to deal with. Depending on the game-state, it may not be worth dealing with at all, however, so don't rush to eliminate it. Decks packing these cards often use them to shield other - more threatening - spells, so take your time and learn WHY these are being played (and whether they're worth countering / removing).
This deck relies on constant shuffle effects, with a strong leaning towards graveyard recycling. If your opponent is able to remove cards from the graveyard (or the entire graveyard), you will lose access to key spells and may not be able to combo-out as needed. Dryad Militant, Leyline of the Void, Rest in Peace, and Planar Void are the big problem children here. They prevent graveyard recycling and fundamentally limit this deck's damage output - you may only deal damage equal to the size of your library. Chances are, this means you won't be able to kill the rest of the table, so you'll need to find a solution. If your meta sees these cards, take care to prepare counterspells and perhaps add some more bounce into the mix.
Unfortunately, these are probably the BIGGEST problems this deck will ever face. A resolved Sadistic Sacrament (even non-kicked) can instantly gut the deck of the vital handcycling cards, tearing victory from your grasp at the simple cost of BBB. It can be very, very hard to remain relevant in a game after one of these spells, and you should counter these cards at all costs. If you find that someone at your table is playing with them, ALWAYS-ALWAYS-ALWAYS leave counters up to protect yourself - it can quite literally be the difference between winning and losing. On the plus-side, however, there are lots of "seemingly great" targets in this deck which might be picked over the handcycling cards, so there is potential that against inexperienced players (or those not familiar with your deck's mechanics) will simply make the wrong choices.
Fast Beatdown
This deck inherently packs very few answers to creatures, much less many of them at a very early point in the game. If you find these at your table quite often, the only answer is to modify the decklist to add sweepers: Chain Reaction, Earthquake, Rolling Earthquake, Incendiary Command, Mizzium Mortars, Pyroclasm, Pyrohemia, Slagstorm, Volcanic Fallout, and Whipflare are all good options, depending on what you're facing. Luckily, with the tutors and topdeck manipulation available to us, these cards should be fairly easy to access and you should be able to wipe the board before taking lethal damage. Also, Nevinyrral's Disk is always an option if you're having a particularly hard time fending off attacks. Don't forget about Cyclonic Rift and Devastation Tide - these are always there, just in case.
These cards come in two varieties - those that deny the ability to respond, and those that deny the ability to combo.
Response denial can be good or bad, depending on the circumstances. City of Solitude and Dosan prevent you from answering large threats, but they also protect you while you're comboing out. Defense grid acts similarly, though spells can still be punched through if needed. In the Eye of Chaos is one of my all-time favorite blue cards, but it's VERY strong against this deck (luckily, very few people even know it exists, and it's not the best friend-maker). Ultimately, Teferi is the biggest threat we can face, for two reasons - first, we can no longer counter spells, and second, our opponent is playing blue, meaning he CAN... Teferi should never be allowed to hit the table, if you can help it.
Combo deniers (Arcane Laboratory, Curse of Exhaustion, and Rule of Law) are very difficult to play around, for obvious reasons. Finishing combos become difficult (or impossible) to pull off, due to the incredible tempo loss. Even if you have a way to solve these permanents, it may take multiple turns. Counter these IMMEDIATELY, and be wary if you know someone runs them in their deck (they're not common, luckily). If it's a major problem, add Chaos Warp and possibly another bounce spell or two to improve your ability to respond (Boomerang / Eye of Nowhere, Disperse, and Into the Roil are likely the best options, though you might consider Capsize, Echoing Truth, and Wipe Away).
Resource denial is tough to deal with, as even 1-2 permanents can really change the tempo of the game for all involved. For ramp-oriented decks with large bombs, resource denial is not a problem - here, however, it is, as we like to chain lots of low-cost spells together. On the bright side, many of the cost-raisers are artifacts, and we're playing red - you might swap out a few counterspells for artifact removal (the tutors help get access to them, as well). Additionally, these decks are not the biggest "crowd-pleasers" at multiplayer tables, so others might already be solving the problem for you.
I love the deck! Been looking for a great primer for niv forever. Have you considered running erratic portal as a 3rd shard? Or Kozilek as a draw four / shuffle when needed?
Jori En simply doesn't work here... we aren't playing enough spells early-on (when we need the extra draw), she needs at least two triggers just to net you any benefit, and she doesn't really interact with anything else. Just clunky.
Recent evolutions in my playgroup's meta have shifted towards combo/control over aggro and midrange. Thus, speed is of the utmost importance, as is having an expanded range of tools to deal with unusual effects and wincons. See this post for more details.
Merchant Scroll often just found me a counterspell, so I've currently got the lovely Swan Song in its place. Scroll will likely come back (it's just too good), but for now, I just wanted to get Swan Song in the list. EDIT: Merchant Scroll returns in the next deck version!
With the recent addition of Day's Undoing to the decklist (AKA a second infinitely-repeatable Timetwister effect, if paired with a flash-enabler), as well as the elimination of Mindmoil, the likelihood of self-mill is greatly reduced to the point that Elixir doesn't really justify its slot anymore. It still has niche utility, but most times it's a dead draw, especially early game where this deck is shooting for good tempo and card advantage. Thought Reflection is replaced by the much-cheaper Alhammarret's Archive. We DO give up one extra draw per turn, but the jump from 5 to 7 cmc is significant. There are a few distinct advantages to Archive: (a) it comes online more quickly, which means you get "ahead" sooner than you would with Thought Reflection; (b) the jump from 5cmc to 7cmc, especially if you want to keep counter-mana open, is quite significant; (c) draw-doubling in this deck cares mostly about combo, not about your once-per-turn draw, so we don't care all that much about losing that; (d) it is tutorable with Fabricate; (e) triple-U can be a pain, if you want to combo other spells that turn - Archive's colorless cost is much more flexible.
March 19, 2016: Top-Deck Tempo
+1 Day's Undoing
+1 Evacuation
+1 Jace's Sanctum
+1 Ponder
+1 Preordain
-1 Acquire
-1 Cunning Wish
-1 Gamble
-1 Mindmoil
-1 Mystic Remora
Not many changes in the last year or so, and what changes there are focus on smoothing the early-game and continuing combo chains. Mindmoil, though RIDICULOUSLY powerful, has caused unintended self-KO's much more frequently than desired. Paired with Thought Reflection, it means you can easily draw out your deck if you get into an Instant war (if only Thought Reflection's ability was elective and not mandatory...). I was always afraid to drop it because of this, and the deck already has a pretty easy time combo'ing out when the momentum gets moving. Day's Undoing replaces it as a Handcycler. Just look at this thing - it's ridiculous! It's basically Timetwister (well, almost). Doesn't exile itself, 3 cmc, shuffles everything up... and pairs great with instant-speed enablers.
Gamble was just that - a Gamble. Great in a pinch but most of the time I didn't want to cast it. Early it's not so great (the rest of the table can often stabilize the game if needed) and most other times, it risks throwing away key cards. This deck really wants to continuously cast spells and this made me afraid to do so. Similarly, Mystic Remora is a tabletop hero and hidden gem of a card, but it's just hurts the tempo too much (and directs attention to you early-on). It was hard cutting this one, but I feel it's for the best. Ponder and Preordain take these two slots.
Acquire is out for now - it's great finding an opponent's Gilded Lotus, and it's one of the very best cards in blue, but it just doesn't synergize with the rest of the deck very well. It's a fantastic card, but only if you get it when you hit 7-8 mana on the board. Any earlier and it's useless (forcing you to tap out and give up a turn), any later and it doesn't really synergize with what the rest of the deck is doing. For now, Evacuation is in. its0v3r9000 mentioned it in the thread, and I think it's a great solution to one of the deck's key weaknesses (swarm and creature-heavy games). This may eventually be replaced, but for now I'm liking it.
The last change sees Jace's Sanctum swapping in for Cunning Wish. The wish is arguably more powerful, but only if it's allowed to be used, and in my opinion it doesn't really fit the spirit of Commander. Jace's Sanctum is a perfect addition, giving us acceleration and enhanced top-decking abilities.
These changes involve minor tweaks to the deck's performance and consistency. Red Elemental Blast, Pyroblast, and Stifle were great fun when they had juicy targets, but I found myself rarely playing them. Though useful in certain scenarios, they did not perform consistently enough to keep their slots. Windfall was removed as it was, for me, the weakest handcycler. Fact or Fiction is stronger here in the early game, and late-game I had no problem hitting enough handcycling anyway. Crystal Ball was often underwhelming and expensive; it doesn't have the versatility (or, critically, cheap cmc) of Sensei's Top. Tezzeret is simply too expensive for what he was here - a tutor for Sensei's Top / Sol Ring / Mana Crypt.
The additions seek to improve the deck's weak points in both the early game (more mana acceleration and draw/dig) and the late (the draw/dig cards are equally useful for continuing / setting up game-winning combos). All Is Dust is included as a last-ditch option to unlock a difficult board state (especially if opponents control multiple powerful enchantments, which are otherwise difficult to deal with).
These changes reflect a desire to improve the consistency of the deck. Reforge the Soul, though expensive, has been added as the deck needs another Draw-7 to better establish board presence (an early Whirlpool Rider was simply a dead card). It will be less effective for "comboing out" due to the increased cost, but the Draw-7 effect helps the deck stabilize. Counterbalance has been replaced by Glen Elendra Archmage, as Counterbalance tends to draw hate and often didn't answer key spells as I would have liked (whereas an early Archmage solves lots of problems and doesn't require much untapped mana). Omniscience has been re-added to the list, as it is quite powerful in getting out of very sticky situations, especially when using Windfall effects to search for answers (when pitching cards to Dream Halls is a very bad thing). The cost is still steep, but I feel that it's worth it here. The last two additions reflects the deck's performance when artifact mana acceleration is available. Early artifacts significantly smooth the deck's ability to "setup" for the combo and respond to problems, and these significantly help the early-game. Also, the counterspell count is quite high, and I feel it's better to lose one counterspell (net, not including Counterbalance, which I don't include due to its variability) for much-improved early-game consistency.
These are all very interesting changes for me. Lots of the cards I'm leaving behind are VERY strong - often, staples in blue. As a result, it's been very tough to even consider cutting them, much less following through on it. However, they simply did not synergize that well, and I feel like the deck is at a critical mass for playing extremely smoothly. By removing these cards, I expect the consistency of the deck to increase even more (though, it's actually quite good already). Also, this deck is already SO flavorful, and I feel that these last cards take away from that... so we'll give it a shot!
The aim of the additions was increased deck manipulation and smoothing of the early game - Intuition, Show and Tell, and Mana Crypt will all help with that. Temporal Manipulation can be played much earlier than Time Stretch, so that change was made. Stifle has so many targets in this game, that I'd be remiss not to at least try it for a while, especially with so many ways to find it in a pinch.
I cannot stress how strong Sensei's Top and Future Sight are in this deck. They're freaking incredible. So, some these changes were made to interact directly with these cards. Which brings me to why Gamble is here - one, it's GREAT and very efficient when hand sizes are so large, but it also shuffles the library, allowing you to refresh the "Top package" or find new ways to combo off with Future Sight. It's very useful without them, but even stronger WITH them. Resetting the deck for 1cc to keep a combo juggling, or "get there", is a big deal here.
Tezzeret and Counterbalance are now here for the same reason (NOTE: Counterbalance is not so great in large groups - right now I'm typically playing against 1-2 people, where it's more effective. I would NOT recommend running it unless the table is small). Finding Sol Ring / Sensei's Top is a HUGE boon to the deck, so having another way to tutor for them is a big deal. Not to mention, the untap ability grants access to bigger mana earlier on (and, Tezzeret does not pose as direct a threat to other players as many planeswalkers, so I expect he'll be around a little longer).
First major overhaul in a long while! Changes focused on the following areas:
Efficiency, Relevance, & Generality - Arcanis, Duplicant, Venser, Capsize, Quicken, Starstorm, Insurrection, Crystal Shard, and Academy Ruins rarely saw play, unless I was already winning. They're simply too narrow - they don't contribute directly to the "Prime Directive", clog your hand, raise the deck's CC cost, and.... I just never really used them.
Mana Curve / Early Game - Replaced a few colorless lands with colored ones, hopefully making for less rocky starts. Trinket Mage, Chromatic Lantern, and Scroll Rack should help with tempo and mana fixing.
Well, over the last 10 months I have made a number of changes to the decklist, and it has slowly ended up like this. The deck in its current form plays very quietly, until it unexpectedly pounds through a win. This usually happens in a single turn, and often I am never at a loss for damage (when I combo out, there is virtually never any concern that I'll "run out of steam" before killing everyone). Now remember - this deck RECYCLES the graveyard, so there's no concern with decking yourself. As a result, Psychosis Crawler and Neko-Te proved to be dead weight every single time I drew them.... I don't think I was once happy to see them (Neko-Te in particular would draw me hate the second it hit play).
Continuing with this logic, protection for Niv-Mizzet was also rather meaningless - Dream Halls is this deck's path to victory (generally), and thus I would typically cast him the turn I'm winning, with plenty of counter backup or Teferi in play.
Nucklavee was too expensive, and I had yet to cast Dragon Mage even a SINGLE time in this deck's entire history. Kozilek was dead weight, and much less efficient than simply adding another recycler (Elixir of Immortality). A little acceleration was thrown in to speed things up, and a few minor changes were made to the landbase.
Diplomatic Immunity is inferior to the Greaves in most cases, this was a pretty simple change. Elixir was less than stellar unless needed, and Kozilek gives plenty more options when I can cast him (and simply gets recycled when I can't). Razormane Masticore is great, but I was always too afraid to actually play him, and most creatures are too big in EDH to really get killed anyway. Dream Halls is in, and it should have been from the beginning (see its section above).
You might want to put Curiosity and Ophidian Eye in your notable exclusions since just about every Niv-Mizzet deck I've ever seen plays them or specifically excludes them because they make the deck too linear and boring.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
Firstly, where's Rite of Replication? It is one of the best blue cards ever printed for this format. It belongs in this deck. Since you don't have any creature recursion, it's better than Clone anyway.
Where's Basilisk Collar? I'd normally flip over its exclusion but Neko-Te could work I guess. It's a notable exclusion either way. You should justify why you took one over the other.
If you include Crystal Shard for ETB abuse, you have to justify why you didn't take Mimic Vat over it or alongside it. The vat is a house with the guys you are trying to abuse with it. Duplicants for is insane enough that I feel a primer should have a good reason why the deck doesn't want such a powerful synergy.
Volition Reins is a strictly better Confiscate. I prefer Gather Specimens or Draining Whelk to either anyway as you don't set yourself up to be blown out by a well-timed Disenchant or Acidic Slime.
Another poster suggested Kozilek, Butcher of Truth. I also feel you should say why he's not in here- he's a fantastic way to shuffle your graveyard when you aren't playing with Reliquary Tower and friends and he's a house if you ever actually cast him. He might be worth the spot over Elixir of Immortality.
I was going to say this. Auras suck. Play equipments whenever possible.
Also, you owe it to the readers to explain why you aren't playing Mind over Matter, Curiosity and/or Ophidian Eye. I don't because it's not my style, but why don't you? It would be cool if you had a separate section in the primer for "Why I don't play these infini-combo cards", where you explain the apparent no-infinite ideology and how it affected your card choices. Speaking of which, I see Beacon of Tomorrows without Planar Portal. Was that also intentional?
I'll also say, good points on Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast. Any competitive EDH playgroup will have more than one blue deck and these cards are such powerful and versatile hosers I'd say it's worth their inclusion. I will try to find a spot in my T+L deck for one.
Good start for the primer. Gotta work on some of the missed cards in either your deck or your "notable exclusions" section but it seems like it could get there
Why the hell does he need to explain why he doesn't play Mind Over matter, Curiosity, Ophidian Eye? Isn't it obvious? Those cards are obviously degenerate with Niv-Mizzet out and ruin the fun for everyone because its literally an instant win.
Anyways, after I killed two people in 4 consecutive turns with Arcanis, Niv-Mizzet, Top, Time Stretch, and Beacon of tomorrow comboed with windfall, mindmoil, and wheel of fortune, I'm pretty sure they've banned my deck from the playgroup
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
---
Team Brolo
PTQ Honolulu Top 8, 2010 Wisconsin Regionals 2nd place
How has wheel of fortune been for you in multiplayer? I'm considering running it in my child of alara but am worried about WoF giving the whole table a refill.
Why the hell does he need to explain why he doesn't play Mind Over matter, Curiosity, Ophidian Eye? Isn't it obvious? Those cards are obviously degenerate with Niv-Mizzet out and ruin the fun for everyone because its literally an instant win.
If this wasn't a [PRIMER], then it's no big deal. Since it is though, you have to assume new players will find this thread and build from it. Don't you think they have the right to know that the combos exist, degenerate or not?
It's obviously up to the OP but I think if you're going to have a notable exclusions section, it'd be kind of silly to leave them out.
Why the hell does he need to explain why he doesn't play Mind Over matter, Curiosity, Ophidian Eye? Isn't it obvious? Those cards are obviously degenerate with Niv-Mizzet out and ruin the fun for everyone because its literally an instant win.
Because this is supposed to be a [PRIMER] about "one of the most powerful (if not THE most powerful) multiplayer decks" and there's blatant powerful exclusions that would make the deck better that aren't covered in the "notable exclusions" section of the OP. That's why.
Ultimately, it's his choice... but I think a thread calling itself a "Primer" for a general should include discussion on such cards.
You might want to put Curiosity and Ophidian Eye in your notable exclusions since just about every Niv-Mizzet deck I've ever seen plays them or specifically excludes them because they make the deck too linear and boring.
There are many ways to make a good Niv-Mizzet deck. Curiosity-Mind over Matter version are very boring as you said.
This version is quiet interesting but again, it falls into the obvious. Blue-Red is the color combination of Chaos in Magic, so why not try to stick with its roots. Maybe a crazy Artifact-theme. Or a Coin-flip version, or a all-in Howlling mine theme with awesome and creative ways to finish the game.
Niv-Mizzet is a Fun and powerfull general. However it's easy for anybody to make a deck that actually do good.
Why the hell does he need to explain why he doesn't play Mind Over matter, Curiosity, Ophidian Eye? Isn't it obvious? Those cards are obviously degenerate with Niv-Mizzet out and ruin the fun for everyone because its literally an instant win.
Anyways, after I killed two people in 4 consecutive turns with Arcanis, Niv-Mizzet, Top, Time Stretch, and Beacon of tomorrow comboed with windfall, mindmoil, and wheel of fortune, I'm pretty sure they've banned my deck from the playgroup
Not trying to jump on the bandwagon, but a Primer tag should better deliver the notable, yet really lame, combos a general offers.
I like how you point out the degenerate wins of Mind Over Matter, curiosity, and Ophidian eye. Indulge me a little, take a second to look closely at the rest of your post. You did the exact same thing those three cards would do, only it took you more cards and you playing with yourself (aka, multiple turns) for awhile.
Though I may have neglected to mention it above, Curiosity / Ophidian Eye / Mind Over Matter have been purposefully excluded from my decklist. I find them to be uninteractive, stale, and frankly un-fun. They don't make for creative game-states and turn the deck into a boring two-card-combo finisher. HOWEVER, my apologies for not mentioning the reasons behind this in the OP itself - I fully intended to the following day, but completely forgot to come back to do so. Thanks to all for pointing out my oversight!
You make a few excellent points! To be honest, I haven't tried either of those cards. However, in my meta I have found that Darksteel Plate wouldn't be quite so useful, as there are a multitude of steal or exile effects. Clout of the Dominus is there to stay, it's extremely strong 1-mana protection with relevant boosts and grants the ability to draw one extra card (that could be pivotal in winning on that turn) for one mana. I'd go so far as to say that it's better than Lightning Greaves for the simple fact that it's cheaper and makes him that much harder to kill (and better on the attack if things get tough). Greaves is great, and if anything will probably replace Diplomatic Immunity, though I've always had a special place in my heart for that enchantment :). Memory Jar I definitely like, but my biggest problem with it is that it doesn't recycle my graveyard, and I don't have any problems finding D7's for equal or lesser cost which are able to do so. Perhaps it will find a place down the road, but when I tested it before it wasn't quite as good as I had hoped.
Firstly, where's Rite of Replication? It is one of the best blue cards ever printed for this format. It belongs in this deck. Since you don't have any creature recursion, it's better than Clone anyway.
Where's Basilisk Collar? I'd normally flip over its exclusion but Neko-Te could work I guess. It's a notable exclusion either way. You should justify why you took one over the other.
If you include Crystal Shard for ETB abuse, you have to justify why you didn't take Mimic Vat over it or alongside it. The vat is a house with the guys you are trying to abuse with it. Duplicants for is insane enough that I feel a primer should have a good reason why the deck doesn't want such a powerful synergy.
Volition Reins is a strictly better Confiscate. I prefer Gather Specimens or Draining Whelk to either anyway as you don't set yourself up to be blown out by a well-timed Disenchant or Acidic Slime.
Another poster suggested Kozilek, Butcher of Truth. I also feel you should say why he's not in here- he's a fantastic way to shuffle your graveyard when you aren't playing with Reliquary Tower and friends and he's a house if you ever actually cast him. He might be worth the spot over Elixir of Immortality.
I was going to say this. Auras suck. Play equipments whenever possible.
Also, you owe it to the readers to explain why you aren't playing Mind over Matter, Curiosity and/or Ophidian Eye. I don't because it's not my style, but why don't you? It would be cool if you had a separate section in the primer for "Why I don't play these infini-combo cards", where you explain the apparent no-infinite ideology and how it affected your card choices. Speaking of which, I see Beacon of Tomorrows without Planar Portal. Was that also intentional?
I'll also say, good points on Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast. Any competitive EDH playgroup will have more than one blue deck and these cards are such powerful and versatile hosers I'd say it's worth their inclusion. I will try to find a spot in my T+L deck for one.
Good start for the primer. Gotta work on some of the missed cards in either your deck or your "notable exclusions" section but it seems like it could get there
I love Rite, but I haven't really found a place where it really fits in quite yet. Generally speaking, it is actually inferior to Clone, surprisingly enough, and that is because Clone does not target (something that a startling number of people don't know). This means I can kill opposing Legendary creatures with protection and shroud without thinking twice. I will look for a place for Rite, though.
Basilisk Collar I may have to find a place for, but Neko-Te is particularly useful because it stops abilities and generals in their tracks. Killing something is never a bad thing, but much of the time EDH decks have ways to make them come back, or to just use this to their advantage with ETB triggers. I like the Collar, but Neko-Te kills the table more quickly and has a unique way of solving many problems.
Quite honestly, I have not tested Mimic Vat in this deck yet. Perhaps the biggest reason it wouldn't be included is that my creatures don't really hit the graveyard very often, surprisingly enough. I really want to test this card, however, because it has massive potential and I haven't really had the time in the last few months to really take it for a spin.
Volition Reins is not strictly better, especially when this deck is so hungry for blue sources. Remember that many counterspells require double blue, and tying up three sources with Volition Reins can be somewhat rough.... especially when nearly every other spell also costs at least one U. More often than not I am simply denying my opponents of an advantage (often a planeswalker), so I've found the untapping is not very relevant, whereas the ability to more consistently cast other blue spells is very helpful. Draining Whelk and Gather Specimens are excellent options, but it is important to understand that Confiscate is there to solve problems you didn't have the mana to counter in the first place. It SHOULD be noted that my playgroup is rather light on enchantment removal, so I don't have to worry as much about something like this.
An excellent point on Kozilek, I actually agree with that change.
As explained above, I choose not to include the infinite combos for much the same reason as you; my apologies for not having elaborated upon that initially, but I have since edited and fixed that! Planar Portal is exempt because it's simply too clunky. It's a huge target and a huge investment, and honestly it breaks down the consistency of the deck. If I draw it when I have a mana engine and counter-backup ready it's obviously good, but to be honest it's far from spectacular at any other time and wastes space in an otherwise great hand. Beacon of Tomorrows is there because it's a great way to take extra turns when you're constantly shuffling and burning through your deck.
If this wasn't a [PRIMER], then it's no big deal. Since it is though, you have to assume new players will find this thread and build from it. Don't you think they have the right to know that the combos exist, degenerate or not?
It's obviously up to the OP but I think if you're going to have a notable exclusions section, it'd be kind of silly to leave them out.
Because this is supposed to be a [PRIMER] about "one of the most powerful (if not THE most powerful) multiplayer decks" and there's blatant powerful exclusions that would make the deck better that aren't covered in the "notable exclusions" section of the OP. That's why.
Ultimately, it's his choice... but I think a thread calling itself a "Primer" for a general should include discussion on such cards.
My apologies folks, it was quite early in the morning then and I was rushing to finish up the OP (I had spent a good deal of time on it and planned to come back later, but never got the chance to and forgot to edit and fix it).
Once again, thanks to all for the suggestions and pointers. I've edited things and hopefully fixed them up to your liking. PLEASE feel free to let me know if you have further comments or criticisms!
Thanks for updating the OP on the infinicombos. Much better.
You should definitely consider our points a bit more about Clout of the Dominus and Diplomatic Immunity. You lose those auras to a board wipe or a removal spell in response. I know you do some GY cycling but it's hurting you CA wise. Not to mention shroud is a non-bo with your Crystal Shard/Riptide Laboratory setup. Equipments are almost always the better choice. Sometime, take one out for Plate and see how you like it. It's not that big a deal if someone steals Niv anyway because they can't abuse him like you can and you can always legend-rule him out anyway with clone effects.
If an aura is doing something for you, consider how you can accomplish the same thing with other permanents. Card advantage is king in Commander and you should never set yourself up to be on the losing end of a two-for-one unless the reward is going to give you a fantastic advantage.
As for rite versus clone, Clone for you seems to have a very narrow purpose- killing shrouded generals. Rite, on the other hand, is way more versatile. It's a clone for the same cost, the only difference being targeting. Then, it's also a ravaging, answer-demanding haymaker at :9mana:. Have you ever hit a kicked rite on a Woodfall Primus? How bout a Terastodon? Guess what happens, my friend- that game is over. You win, and in fantastic fashion. The only reason should play Clone over Rite is if your meta has a lot of voltron Commanders you just can't kill otherwise because maybe you're light on wrath effects. If you were also playing White and/or Black, I could see it as well because they have a knack for recurring creatures. Even if you don't agree with me, at least test it out sometime. I can't tell you how many times I've Mystical Tutor-ed for Rite of Replication EOT and just owned the table after that.
On Confiscate, I find it surprising that any group is light on enchantment removal. All white decks have disenchant effects and all green decks have Acidic Slime, Krosan Grip, Woodfall Primus and friends. You play against Nicol Bolas and Thraximundar?
Thanks for updating the OP on the infinicombos. Much better.
You should definitely consider our points a bit more about Clout of the Dominus and Diplomatic Immunity. You lose those auras to a board wipe or a removal spell in response. I know you do some GY cycling but it's hurting you CA wise. Not to mention shroud is a non-bo with your Crystal Shard/Riptide Laboratory setup. Equipments are almost always the better choice. Sometime, take one out for Plate and see how you like it. It's not that big a deal if someone steals Niv anyway because they can't abuse him like you can and you can always legend-rule him out anyway with clone effects.
If an aura is doing something for you, consider how you can accomplish the same thing with other permanents. Card advantage is king in Commander and you should never set yourself up to be on the losing end of a two-for-one unless the reward is going to give you a fantastic advantage.
As for rite versus clone, Clone for you seems to have a very narrow purpose- killing shrouded generals. Rite, on the other hand, is way more versatile. It's a clone for the same cost, the only difference being targeting. Then, it's also a ravaging, answer-demanding haymaker at :9mana:. Have you ever hit a kicked rite on a Woodfall Primus? How bout a Terastodon? Guess what happens, my friend- that game is over. You win, and in fantastic fashion. The only reason should play Clone over Rite is if your meta has a lot of voltron Commanders you just can't kill otherwise because maybe you're light on wrath effects. If you were also playing White and/or Black, I could see it as well because they have a knack for recurring creatures. Even if you don't agree with me, at least test it out sometime. I can't tell you how many times I've Mystical Tutor-ed for Rite of Replication EOT and just owned the table after that.
On Confiscate, I find it surprising that any group is light on enchantment removal. All white decks have disenchant effects and all green decks have Acidic Slime, Krosan Grip, Woodfall Primus and friends. You play against Nicol Bolas and Thraximundar?
And I'm testing out Pyroblast
Also, you have no card tags around Dream Halls.
I will most definitely try these cards just to test them out - seems like a lot of people are pushing for them!
However, initial thoughts before testing: Clout of the Dominus - The most significant thing about this card is that it's only a one-mana investment. More often than not it only needs to stick around for maybe a turn or two, and usually less. The biggest advantage here is that it's very conducive to quick wins, in the sense that with a single U or R you have protected him so that you may combo off that very turn. It MAY be card disadvantage if he is hit by a sweeper, but do remember that this deck doesn't really care so much about dropping CA on single cards - it is drawing so often that it is way ahead in that department anyway, so many times it really comes down to how many cards you can play to win (i.e. mana-efficiency is king), and less so whether or not one may be an otherwise inferior choice. For me, only needing to invest (R/U) is a huge enabler for comboing off, rather than needing to devote 5 (or 2 if it's already in play). Rite of Replication - No qualms about this card, I'm excited to test it. Biggest "lack" of power, I guess, comes from the fact that my playgroup (surprisingly enough) tends to avoid green like it's the plague, so I don't always have the very useful ETB effects that it provides. TO go along with that, shrouded generals are a BIG problem (Uril is the only general of one of my friends, and Whispersilk Cloak effects are really popular). However, I am still DEFINITELY going to slip it in for a bit - I'm excited to try it! Confiscate - It is pretty sad how little enchantment destruction my group plays, especially when there are so many enchantment-heavy decks running around in our group. But, it does make this card significantly better. However, I'm going to mess around with turning this into Rite of Replication or Vesuvan Doppelganger
Good luck with Pyroblast! I almost threw it in as a joke at first, thinking, "Eh, it'll probably hit something!" ....and then I realized it's singlehandedly (along with REB) one of the most powerful cards in multiplayer EDH. You flat out WILL ALWAYS have a use for it, and at R it's ridiculously aggressively costed, too.
When i first built my Niv deck (about 3 years ago) I used the Dream Halls engine with all the wheel effects i could possible find.There are many things that i found out after playing with it for a while:
Be sure to run a good ration between Blue and Red cards.
Also, be carefull with the Artifact count. Just play the ones that are extremly necessary.
Don't run too many counterspells. Your hand It's going to be constantly changing, and counterspell are good when you plan to use by holding them in your hand for a while.
You use lots of Time Walk cards, and I don't, so that might slightly change a little bit what I just pointed out.
Cards that I think dont fit the Wheeling theme of Niv's: Isurrection (A kill card? ...Maybe can't take its full potential by not having a sac outlet)
I understand their purpose, but like I mentioned before, It's very important to minimize the Artifact count as much as possible, and I dont see this two being extremly important for the deck.
My built is very similar, but I try to run lots of bounce so I can deal away the cards that I bounced back to opponents hands. It's fun to shuffle way Generals and Echantments that are so hard for the Blue/Red mage to deal with.
I have a Niv deck where i originally had mindmoil, teferi's puzzle box and thought reflection. Whenever I had one of the first with Thought reflection out, i ended up milling myself to death. /w puzzle box is was effectively, draw 7, then draw 14, then 28, etc. It is worth noting that I have a reliquary tower in my deck, perhaps I could pull it, but then I end up discarding a ton of cards into my grave.
EDIT: oops, I saw your exclusions after writing this. You have this point already covered. My bad
When i first built my Niv deck (about 3 years ago) I used the Dream Halls engine with all the wheel effects i could possible find.There are many things that i found out after playing with it for a while:
Be sure to run a good ration between Blue and Red cards.
Also, be carefull with the Artifact count. Just play the ones that are extremly necessary.
Don't run too many counterspells. Your hand It's going to be constantly changing, and counterspell are good when you plan to use by holding them in your hand for a while.
You use lots of Time Walk cards, and I don't, so that might slightly change a little bit what I just pointed out.
Cards that I think dont fit the Wheeling theme of Niv's: Isurrection (A kill card? ...Maybe can't take its full potential by not having a sac outlet)
I understand their purpose, but like I mentioned before, It's very important to minimize the Artifact count as much as possible, and I dont see this two being extremly important for the deck.
My built is very similar, but I try to run lots of bounce so I can deal away the cards that I bounced back to opponents hands. It's fun to shuffle way Generals and Echantments that are so hard for the Blue/Red mage to deal with.
I do try to stick with colored spells as best I can, but I have found that the artifacts still in the decklist are quite valuable in accelerating and color fixing. I find that I have a good color distribution and almost always draw relevant spells off of the D7's, so I don't really run into any hiccups. As far as counterspells, there has not been a time when I'm unhappy to draw one. I agree that they're better when you have the opportunity to pick and choose your targets, but one of the hard things about playing this deck is you have to be willing and able to toss a Mana Drain back into the deck for a new hand. I know this may sound crazy, but in the end the higher density of counterspells means you're likely to get another in the new hand anyway.
Insurrection is straight-up a game-winner, no questions asked. It has zero synergy with the rest of the deck, but honestly that's its biggest strength. That eight mana can completely flip the gamestate, and there have been plenty of times where Iwas positive that my deck wouldn't really be able to produce an answer, and then I drew this baby and everything changed. No, it's not that flavorful or relevant to the rest of the stack but sometimes it's just the ticket you need when you can't drive things home by conventional means (or need to turn the tides).
Mizzium Transreliquat is powerful because it's essentially a second Gilded Lotus or Sol Ring for the deck, and often can copy things which are even better. At a table with 3-4 people, there's almost always a juicy target for this and it's nondescript too, which means you won't be attacked for killing someone's permanent. It doesn't have any immediate synergies with MY list, but it always finds a way to work, and work well. Neko-Te is unbelievably good, it stops some of the best creature combos in the game and can serve as the nail in the coffin when you're comboing off. Remember that this not only completely disables most creature abilities, but also makes Niv do double-damage to players, which can bring you the extra distance at the end of a combo.
I have a Niv deck where i originally had mindmoil, teferi's puzzle box and thought reflection. Whenever I had one of the first with Thought reflection out, i ended up milling myself to death. /w puzzle box is was effectively, draw 7, then draw 14, then 28, etc. It is worth noting that I have a reliquary tower in my deck, perhaps I could pull it, but then I end up discarding a ton of cards into my grave.
As for the 1 Mountain / 1 Island comment I'm not sure quite what you're referencing there..... Diminishing Returns I don't like because I feel there are less risky ways to draw cards, and exiling a key combo piece is never a good thing.
EDIT: oops, I saw your exclusions after writing this. You have this point already covered. My bad
So you probably haven't look at this thread since march 25th or so... but Jin Gitaxias seems like it could be a good fit. Also I would run reflecting pool over city of brass, or when avaliable, command tower.
So you probably haven't look at this thread since march 25th or so... but Jin Gitaxias seems like it could be a good fit. Also I would run reflecting pool over city of brass, or when avaliable, command tower.
Jin-Gitaxias seems strong, but I'm not sure how well it would fit in the deck. There are just a few fundamental problems I have with it:
- Because discard phases are only at the end of turn, opponents would still get to utilize cards that they draw, whether through their ordinary draw step or through other means. This alone makes me think he isn't really worth it because by the time the game is late enough that he could land, people are usually playing out their hand when they draw.... and the control decks that don't usually have plenty of ways to abuse the graveyard anyway.
- My deck plays a lot of Draw7's, so there is plenty of time for opponents to use their fresh new hands in the same way as in the previous point
- The first "turn round" he hits, everyone might still have a lot of cards in-hand... thus, there are likely a lot of answers to him.
- He's overall weak in general, with low toughness and no protection. If a spell in someone's hand doesn't kill him, it's almost certain an ability can.
- Niv-Mizzet decks are already hated on like crazy, but the first time I land this I can almost guarantee I'll be the first deck killed almost every game. People hate not having a hand.
- Cost is extremely prohibitive, I don't see him ever "winning" the game for me. It's a neat effect but this deck is Combo and not Control, so it's a lot better to have efficiently-costed "hand-recycling" cards than it is to have big guns like this.
What I am considering running though is a new card recently spoiled in M12:
:symu:, :symtap:: Each player discards his or
her hand, then draws cards equal to
the greatest number of cards a
player discarded this way.
Illus. James Ryan #59/2492/2
Cheap cost and extremely reusable affect. Isn't an immediate board threat and doesn't benefit anyone to steal it for themselves (other than keeping me away from activating him). Also weak and un-intimidating enough that people won't want to waste removal on him. This card has me super excited, the deck is already extremely reliable once it gets moving but having a backup reusable effect that can singlehandedly win the game for me (through previously explained combos) is a huge threat, plus it's great if I just need a fresh hand of answers.
I really have trouble running Reflecting Pool because this deck NEEDS to hit both red and blue early on. City of Brass does that for me but Reflecting Pool doesn't. I'm out of town for the summer for an internship but Command Tower will definitely see a spot once I get back and have a bit of time to update the list!
Awesome primer dude, thanks! I put together my own list based on it and it's been super fun so far! My main note was how right you were about the Curiosity / Ophidian Eye / Mind Over Matter cards. NOT fun! Although I took it one step further and excluded Mindmoil as well...
Not sure if anyone else suggested this, but Charisma is a fantastic aura with Niv. I run it in my Mizzet deck. It turns card draws into creature steals, allowing you to plink away at the board. I have used this card in conjunction with, say, Blue Sun's Zenith, to literally take control of the entire board.
Unfortunately we (the community) have recently been informed (1) (2) that the future of MTGS is uncertain. Please see:
Welcome, and enjoy your stay!
Handcycling in Commander!
Contact:      nivmizzetprimer@gmail.com
Updated:     30th March, 2017
Background & Bio:
Hello everyone, and welcome to my Niv-Mizzet thread! This boss of a dragon was the very first in-the-flesh general I ever built around - way back in the day when this format was called "EDH". Unfortunately, the first iteration wasn't so hot, and the deck was disassembled only a few weeks later.... now, after extensive research and over EIGHT YEARS of playtesting, iterating, and tuning, I present to you this deck! As an avid MTG fan, I've been around the game (on and off) for about fifteen years and have dabbled in virtually every format. Fortunately for me and unfortunately for my wallet, I discovered EDH (Commander) back in 2008 - I immediately made like a fish and got hooked. Aside from the occasional Limited / Sealed event, I haven't played a single game of another format since!
As for me, I'm a graduate student in engineering at MIT - so, needless to say, I'm the type that loves not only challenges and puzzles, but also lots of socializing - Magic is the perfect medium! Not to mention, it's a great way to spend some quality time with old friends.
That said, I sometimes get caught up in my work, so if you have any questions or would like to discuss anything here, please feel free to email me at the address above (please also post in this thread, so I can respond publicly). I look forward to hearing from you!
The Commander & Dragonlord:
Niv Mizzet, the Firemind is arguably my most favorite card in all of magic. Why? Because he's just so fun. No, he isn't the most powerful dragon in the game, but he's far and away the most interesting! Extra card draw, obvious room for building around, EXTREMELY fun colors, and the opportunity to utilize cards that might otherwise never see play? Yes, please! Niv-Mizzet is, bar-none, my personal favorite general. However, he's also well-liked by those I play with, making him unique among other powerful control / combo generals. This is a combo deck where EVERYONE has fun with - regardless of whether they're the pilot or the enemy!
While Niv-Mizzet is deeply interesting on his own, the Izzet Guild brings something entirely new to the table: a delicate - but wildly entertaining - combination of chaos and control. In all my years playing Commander, I'venever seen another deck cause anywhere near as many unique and interesting gamestates.
Why play Niv-Mizzet?
Pros and Cons: Does the Deck Fit You?
Though seemingly simple on the surface, this deck can offers unique interactions, numerous on-the-fly options, and complicated decisions. It requires a pilot who will not only respect what it is, but love it enough to dive in and truly understand the incredible depth of interaction at his hands. However, I don't say this to dissuade you - only to encourage you to spend some genuine time with it! This deck will be fun and interesting from the get-go, and will continue to deliver, game after game. Even after hundreds of games, I continually discover neat "tricks", and I've not only grown to love the deck even more, but have also grown as a M:tG player. So, try it out... and keep trying it out! I'd bet my money you'll walk away with a smile.
The Decklist by Card Function
Quick Stats:
Spells < 4 CMC: 45
Spells = 4 CMC: 8
Spells > 4 CMC: 13
Spells w/ No Color Req: 13
U Costs: 30
UU Costs: 17
UUU Costs: 3
R Costs: 6
RR Costs: 2
6 Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
HANDCYCLING
1 Winds of Change
2 Tolarian Winds
3 Timetwister
3 Wheel of Fortune
3 Whirlpool Warrior
5 Reforge the Soul
5 Time Reversal
6 Time Spiral
DRAW MULTIPLIERS
5 Alhammarret's Archive
6 Consecrated Sphinx
COST-REDUCERS
2 Baral, Chief of Compliance
2 Sapphire Medallion
4 Jace's Sanctum
4 Mizzix of the Izmagnus
COST-CHEATERS
3 Show and Tell
5 Dream Halls
10 Omniscience
FLASH-ENABLERS
4 Leyline of Anticipation
4 Vedalken Orrery
TUTOR
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Personal Tutor
2 Merchant Scroll
3 Fabricate
3 Intuition
3 Trinket Mage
LOOTING & DRAW FILTERING
1 Brainstorm
1 Faithless Looting
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
2 Impulse
3 Dack Fayden
3 Frantic Search
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 High Tide
2 Cyclonic Rift
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Rhystic Study
4 Turnabout
COUNTERSPELLS
0 Force of Will
0 Pact of Negation
1 Stifle
1 Swan Song
2 Arcane Denial
2 Counterspell
2 Mana Drain
2 Negate
2 Remand
2 Trickbind
3 Counterflux
3 Disallow
3 Dissipate
3 Forbid
4 Cryptic Command
EXTRA TURNS
5 Temporal Manipulation
5 Time Warp
TOP-DECK SUITE
1 Sensei's Divining Top
5 Future Sight
MANA ROCKS
0 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
2 Coldsteel Heart
2 Grim Monolith
3 Coalition Relic
5 Gilded Lotus
0 Cascade Bluffs
0 Command Tower
0 Steam Vents
0 Sulfur Falls
0 Volcanic Island
UTILITY LANDS
0 Ancient Tomb
0 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
0 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
0 Strip Mine
0 Wasteland
FETCHLANDS / TOPDECK SHUFFLE
0 Arid Mesa
0 Bloodstained Mire
0 Flooded Strand
0 Misty Rainforest
0 Polluted Delta
0 Scalding Tarn
0 Wooded Foothills
BASIC LANDS
15x Island
2x Mountain
6 Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
CREATURE
2 Baral, Chief of Compliance
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Trinket Mage
3 Whirlpool Warrior
4 Mizzix of the Izmagnus
6 Consecrated Sphinx
PLANESWALKER
3 Dack Fayden
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
INSTANT
0 Force of Will
0 Pact of Negation
1 Brainstorm
1 High Tide
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Stifle
1 Swan Song
1 Trickbind
2 Arcane Denial
2 Counterspell
2 Cyclonic Rift
2 Impulse
2 Mana Drain
2 Negate
2 Remand
2 Tolarian Winds
3 Counterflux
3 Disallow
3 Dissipate
3 Forbid
3 Frantic Search
3 Intuition
4 Cryptic Command
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Turnabout
1 Faithless Looting
1 Personal Tutor
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Winds of Change
2 Merchant Scroll
3 Fabricate
3 Show and Tell
3 Timetwister
3 Wheel of Fortune
5 Reforge the Soul
5 Temporal Manipulation
5 Time Reversal
5 Time Warp
6 Time Spiral
ENCHANTMENT
3 Rhystic Study
4 Jace's Sanctum
4 Leyline of Anticipation
5 Dream Halls
5 Future Sight
10 Omniscience
ARTIFACT
0 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
2 Coldsteel Heart
2 Grim Monolith
2 Sapphire Medallion
3 Coalition Relic
4 Vedalken Orrery
5 Alhammarret's Archive
5 Gilded Lotus
0 Cascade Bluffs
0 Command Tower
0 Steam Vents
0 Sulfur Falls
0 Volcanic Island
UTILITY LANDS
0 Ancient Tomb
0 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
0 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
0 Strip Mine
0 Wasteland
FETCHLANDS (SHUFFLE)
0 Arid Mesa
0 Bloodstained Mire
0 Flooded Strand
0 Misty Rainforest
0 Polluted Delta
0 Scalding Tarn
0 Wooded Foothills
BASIC LANDS
15x Island
2x Mountain
1 Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
CREATURE
1 Baral, Chief of Compliance
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Mizzix of the Izmagnus
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Trinket Mage
1 Whirlpool Warrior
PLANESWALKER
1 Dack Fayden
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
INSTANT
1 Arcane Denial
1 Brainstorm
1 Counterflux
1 Counterspell
1 Cryptic Command
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Disallow
1 Dissipate
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Forbid
1 Force of Will
1 Frantic Search
1 High Tide
1 Impulse
1 Intuition
1 Mana Drain
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Negate
1 Pact of Negation
1 Remand
1 Stifle
1 Swan Song
1 Tolarian Winds
1 Trickbind
1 Turnabout
1 Fabricate
1 Faithless Looting
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Personal Tutor
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Show and Tell
1 Temporal Manipulation
1 Time Reversal
1 Time Spiral
1 Time Warp
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Winds of Change
ENCHANTMENT
1 Dream Halls
1 Future Sight
1 Jace's Sanctum
1 Leyline of Anticipation
1 Omniscience
1 Rhystic Study
ARTIFACT
1 Alhammarret's Archive
1 Coalition Relic
1 Coldsteel Heart
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Grim Monolith
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sapphire Medallion
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Vedalken Orrery
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Command Tower
1 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Volcanic Island
UTILITY LANDS
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland
FETCHLANDS (SHUFFLE)
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Wooded Foothills
BASIC LANDS
15x Island
2x Mountain
Click here for DeckStats.net Analysis
Currently Under Consideration:
Handcycling: Definition & Philosophy
Because, in my honest opinion, the vast majority of Niv decks are flat-out boring.
A New Idea
It takes only a quick forum search to find plenty of run-of-the-mill Niv-Mizzet control decks - most often, Red/Blue "goodstuff" with a side of Curiosity, Ophidian Eye, or Mind Over Matter for tasty infinite-combo wins. When I originally built this deck, I wanted to go in another direction, and so I invented handcycling:
/hand-sahy-kling/ - Noun
The abuse of powerful, efficient, and aggressively costed Timetwister
effects for the purpose of generating overwhelming card advantage, dominating
the boardstate, rushing to victory, and most importantly, having fun.
You'll notice I mentioned Timetwister. And that Timetwister is directly to the right. And that Timetwister is right there at the top of the page, too. Yeah, Timetwister is good, and it's the perfect card for explaining this deck's play philosophy. Remember it for later.
Let's take a closer look at Niv-Mizzet's rules text:
Now, as I mentioned, plenty of other decks take the Red/Blue "goodstuff" approach, and will almost universally toss in the high-cost "bomb" draw spells: Braingeyser, Blue Sun's Zenith, Mind Spring, Stroke of Genius, etc. There are two common themes between all of them: you can add a LOT of cards to your hand, and they are usually RIDICULOUSLY expensive. The reason these decks play these cards is quite clear - to activate Niv-Mizzet! However, this comes at the cost of efficiency, speed, and resources. And, there's an even more important question:
...now how the heck do you actually play all of them before discard?
Short Answer:
You Can't.
...Unless you have something like Dream Halls on the board, but I'll discuss it at length later on.
The sad truth is, in most cases, card draw in Niv-Mizzet decks is NOT optimized to find answers and generate TRUE card advantage - it's used to slowly ping away at your opponent, wasting time, mana, and, most importantly, versatility. Niv pilots are wasting their card slots on more and more draw cards - which, when used, draw into... more draw cards! There must be a better way....
Old vs. New
Now, let's take a look at that card Timetwister - I think I mentioned it before. It lets you draw seven cards and recycle your entire graveyard for the incredible cost of 2U. Let's compare it to a Mind Spring which you decide to cast for 7UU. There are three key differences:
But, of course, your opponent gets a new hand too! Isn't that bad? Well, sometimes yes, and sometimes no. Worst-case, you're giving him new ammunition, and the both of you will be on fairly even ground. However, more commonly, you're destroying his plans. That fat bomb he's been sitting on for 5 turns? Shuffled back into the deck. The key combo piece he just tutored for and which is sitting on the top of his deck? He shouldn't have wasted the mana to find it. His mental state? Shaken, because all of a sudden he can't plan his moves - his deck isn't designed for this style of play, and you're robbing him of some of the most powerful tools in the game. Paired with a bounce spell, Handcycling is a brutal form of removal. Not to mention, Timetwister resets your graveyard too, replenishing silver bullets and ensuring you don't accidentally deck yourself (don't laugh - it's a VERY real concern with most Niv decks!)
Still think that extra 5U is worth it?
So by now you may agree with me that Timetwister is pretty darn good. But it's far from the only one - we have access to Wheel of Fortune, Time Spiral, Winds of Change, interesting tech like Whirlpool Warrior, and others. There are lots of options out there, all of which are efficient and well-suited to this sort of deck.
As you've probably deduced, the central theme to a handcycling strategy is:
Infinite Combos
Ever tried them? They're powerful, quick, and efficient.
Fun? Perhaps. But isn't there a more exciting way?
Interesting? No, because the same thing happens every time.
Creative? Heh.
Long story short, this deck skips the infinite combos. Yet, it gives up very little in power and is orders of magnitude more fun because of it! But, if you absolutely can't be swayed from going infinite, well... the obvious candidate for inclusion is Mox Lotus
Now if infinitely abusing Niv-Mizzet is what you want (I'm guessing that's what you actually meant), take a stab at Ophidian Eye, Curiosity, and/or Mind Over Matter.
I actually highly, highly recommend playing with these three cards for a while.
When you and your playgroup are bored of seeing the same combo (and often, an uninspiring and inefficient list for managing the combo), come back here and see what a truly competitive, yet non-infinite list can do
Niv-Mizzet Combo & "Making Friends"
The Problem with Combo in Multiplayer Commander
It is well accepted that Magic decks tend to fall within the confines of three general archetypes: Aggro, Combo, and Control, discussed further here. While Commander offers many opportunities to blur these lines, Niv-Mizzet plays very heavily on the "Combo" side of things, with a small dash of Control. Before going any further, let's clear up one thing:
Let me explain:
Historically, combo decks win a game by way of abusing a combination of cards. In most cases, these cards aren't merely good together - they're GREAT together! So great, in fact, that once a combo begins "going off", no one else can typically do anything to stop it.
There are two main problems with combo in Commander:
For a Combo deck to survive in a multiplayer environment, game after game, it must break the standard "archetype" of combo - it must be FUN, both to play with, and to play against. In my experience, there are three "golden rules" which must be followed to achieve this:
A Typical Game with Niv-Mizzet
This deck doesn't want to dominate the board - it simply can't, as we are primarily in Blue. The deck is tuned for smooth tempo on turns 1-4; establishing an engine turns 3-7; and seeking a win on turns 5-8+, all the while maintaining a healthy hand size and versatile suite of answers (primarily, counters to both spells and abilities). Pushing much faster than this risks both a drop in consistency AND greater likelihood that your opponents can predict your pace. It is very important that you understand the following: Perhaps the greatest asset of this build is that the exact timing/turn of the "win" is hard to predict. It is very important not to telegraph how close you are to going off... by appearing 1-2 turns further than you truly are, your opponents will invest in their own board states 1-2 turns longer than they should, granting you just enough runway to combo out. This is a major goal of the list - to maintain fast tempo, build card advantage, and assemble a win condition just slightly more quickly than anyone actually expects.
More overtly "aggro" decks will attract more early-game hate; slower decks will simply not be able to keep up. By generating tempo and card advantage without creating a menacing board presence, you indirectly buy yourself some protection - and someone else usually sticks out as the "pressing issue" at the table.
Early Game: Turns 1-4
Mid Game: Turns 4-6
Late Game: Turns 7+
How to Play: Combos, Interactions, Effects, and Engines
General Path to Victory
In the most condensed explanation possible, this deck achieves victory by:
And how do you avoid drawing into a poor hand and dropping the combo?"
You're right! With this approach, you need to be able to chain multiple rounds of handcycling into one another without dropping the combo or running out of mana - a VERY real concern! You'll also notice that the number of handcycling cards in the deck is actually fairly low - at the time of writing this, only nine are in the deck... chances actually aren't very great that you'll draw into another handcycling effect! Remember, however: the entire rest of the deck is devoted to supporting or protecting those nine spells. So, how does this work?
Cards in this deck can generally be classified as:
Sticking a "Draw Multiplier" to the battlefield greatly improves your chances of comboing out. Yet, don't be willy-nilly; you want to be able to protect these, and abuse them immediately. Not only are Alhammarret's Archive and Consecrated Sphinx your primary win-conditions, they are also generally MASSIVE targets in Commander. Don't drop them unless you are confident you can get the most out of them immediately, and/or have great options for protecting them (or, are in desperate need of a way to claw back into a nearly-lost game). Don't just "drop one" because you can pay for it - they will eat removal almost immediately, and you'll be significantly set back on your timeline!
Omniscience and Dream Halls are incredibly powerful, and can single-handedly lead your deck to victory. Once casting costs have been avoided using one of these, the full resources of the deck become available, allowing you to tutor, handcycle, and cast spells without any regard for leaving mana open (not to mention.... counterspells!). Keep in mind that Dream Halls can be a two-edged sword, though - it can enable you to combo out much more quickly than you otherwise could (or lets you endlessly recast Niv-Mizzet, avoiding the growing mana cost), but your opponents gain the same advantage... ahem, the word "Teferi" comes to mind Be careful!
In a perfect world, an "ideal combo" would look like:
In reality, this exact path is rarely possible - very often one (or more) components in the above list won't be available to you... but that's why this deck has so many tools at your disposal! Counterspells and Vedalken Orrery / Leyline of Anticipation allow you to respond in a multitude of ways; extra turns and lots of mana (lands, High Tide, Cost-Reducers, and artifacts) can get you there when you don't have Dream Halls and Omniscience; and the topdeck toolbox can often find the right tools for you when Alhammarret's Archive / Consecrated Sphinx are nowhere to be seen. There are a million and one ways to win the game - have fun exploring its capabilities, and always take a second look at your options before you ever pass a turn!
When to Play Niv-Mizzet
Unfortunately, there is no easy answer to this question, as it ALL depends on your playgroup. If you're playing against less competitive "goldfish" decks (or decks light on removal in general), an early Niv can be a major tempo boost, drawing you extra cards and picking off small utility creatures. However, at more competitive tables you will be very lucky if he survives a round of turns - people know these are "combo" colors and they know Niv is a "combo" general. When he hits the table, people rush to respond, simply because they don't know what you're up to. At a table with strong opponents, Niv will immediately attract attention. Competitive EDH players know what he can do once he lands. But, this can be used to your advantage: by refusing to play Niv-Mizzet until the very moment you are ready to combo off, you will avoid attention and hate and people will think you're a turn or two behind where you really are (remember, most people are used to wincons relying on Niv-Mizzet's tap ability, which is subject to summoning sickness). If multiple turns pass where you could have played him and didn't, other players will likely notice this and deem you a less important threat than others.
In the end, it all depends on your playgroup. In some cases it may actually be beneficial to squeak him out early - in others, you'll need to drop him the very turn you win, using Omniscience / Dream Halls to cast everything. This said, as a general rule: The better your playgroup, the less "Battlefield" time Niv-Mizzet should see. To pilot this deck at its best, you will need to learn who you're playing with!
Top-Deck Toolboxing
While you may already be familiar with cards like Sensei's Divining Top and Future Sight, you may not have seen them abused in the way this deck does. In this application, the strength of top-deck manipulation is that it allows you to quickly and efficiently answer significant problems or continue combo chains. Most often, this means gaining access to additional counterspells or handcycling cards. The "Top-Deck Suite" consists of:
This package works well with Leyline of Anticipation / Vedalken Orrery, with Future Sight being the star of the show (toss Dream Halls in there and things escalate quickly!). This allows you to quickly burn through multiple cards, or to handcycle in response to a threatening spell. Also, with both Sensei's Top and Future Sight in play, you gain the ability to draw as many cards as you like, for the measly price of 1 per card - a classic combo and truly powerful indeed!
Specific Card Choices
- Having the power to dig 5-cards deep at literally any time cannot be overstated (you can FoF in response to something!!)
- Although an opponent separates the piles, you make the final choice on what you keep. Meaning you are guaranteed access to the most important card you dig out (if not more than just one card). Whether you need sweep, lands/mana rocks, handcycling, or a counter (a big bomb is on the stack) etc. you get to make that choice, while simultaneously clearing the chaff from the top of your deck (brand new fodder for Sensei's Top!).
- The draw-trigger is unimportant as that's what the handcycling is there for, and I have enough of that; increased toolboxing is what I need.
- Early-game it can find you the two sources of mana you might need to start setting things up; late game it can dig for a crucial combo piece or answer
- Together with Cost-Reducers, this is often an instant-speed Brilliant Ultimatum on-the-cheap.
MANA ROCKS
Budget Options
Of course, because this is a combo deck, every mana counts... the most powerful instant-speed interactions often have no direct budget substitute. Proxy the list and sleeve it up for 10 games, and then once you've got a good feel for both how it works AND why it works, you will be able to make better decisions for budget replacement and meta tuning. Hopefully your playgroup is OK with proxies, especially the more expensive cards (e.g. Timetwister, which in my opinion simply cannot be replaced). Remember that EDH is a fun format; most playgroups are perfectly OK with letting you use a few proxies!
If you do decide to make changes, I would replace cards in the following order:
The following replacements may seriously influence the playstyle of the deck and I don't recommend them, but they are a last-ditch option if absolutely necessary:
- Speed - Can it be played at instant speed on an opponent's end step?
- Synergy - Does it help the deck to win in the ways it wants to? Does it synergize with the handcycling combo, or setup crazy instant-speed plays?
- Slots - Do we already have enough cards which have a certain effect?
- The spells that were really worth countering tended to be high-CMC, where the hit-rate with Counterbalance was low. Low-CMC spells had a higher hit-rate, but it didn't matter so much whether they were countered anyway - it just drew hate.
- Without a top-deck toolbox (Sensei's top) Counterbalance is really ineffective; with it, I wasted resources trying to setup Counterbalance rather than setting myself up for the win
- Counterbalance does not immediately pay for itself and can be answered before it actually counters anything; a typical counter gives you just one answer, but guarantees you that answer
- My goal with counterspells is ONLY to protect key combo pieces and snipe off the most game-breaking threats. 3-4 person games often equilibrate naturally and you don't have to be responsible for answering everything... trying to domineer the game at all times just brings unwanted backlash
Strategy Variations
Niv-Mizzet offers significant design space for future deckbuilders, so do not be afraid to blaze your own path! For a well-documented alternative to this Primer, please visit Rowan's Niv-Mizzet Primer: Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind: Firemind's Fury. Rowan and I have developed our lists over the past few years and each is well-documented and exhaustively playtested. Despite the similarities, they offer wildly different gamestates, and Rowan's is a thoroughly impressive Niv-Mizzet variation. I encourage you to stop by his Primer!
In general, there are a few other strategies Niv-Mizzet could be built around, which I have never seen truly fleshed out:
Weaknesses:
Changelog Below
UR [PRIMER] Flash of the Firemind (Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind) RU
BG Death and Staxes: FireStorm4056's Competitive Meren Stax List GB
W Avacyn Angel of Hope W
R Akroma, Angel of (Your Opponent's) Fury R
R 99-Mountain Ashling R
Changelog:
March 12, 2017: Tempo Be Thy Name
December 11, 2016: Jori En No More
December 5, 2016: Tricks & Traps
December 3, 2016: A Rising Tide Lifts All Boats
November 26, 2016: Blue Swan
April 26, 2016: Knowledge Over Immortality
March 19, 2016: Top-Deck Tempo
Not many changes in the last year or so, and what changes there are focus on smoothing the early-game and continuing combo chains. Mindmoil, though RIDICULOUSLY powerful, has caused unintended self-KO's much more frequently than desired. Paired with Thought Reflection, it means you can easily draw out your deck if you get into an Instant war (if only Thought Reflection's ability was elective and not mandatory...). I was always afraid to drop it because of this, and the deck already has a pretty easy time combo'ing out when the momentum gets moving. Day's Undoing replaces it as a Handcycler. Just look at this thing - it's ridiculous! It's basically Timetwister (well, almost). Doesn't exile itself, 3 cmc, shuffles everything up... and pairs great with instant-speed enablers.
Gamble was just that - a Gamble. Great in a pinch but most of the time I didn't want to cast it. Early it's not so great (the rest of the table can often stabilize the game if needed) and most other times, it risks throwing away key cards. This deck really wants to continuously cast spells and this made me afraid to do so. Similarly, Mystic Remora is a tabletop hero and hidden gem of a card, but it's just hurts the tempo too much (and directs attention to you early-on). It was hard cutting this one, but I feel it's for the best. Ponder and Preordain take these two slots.
Acquire is out for now - it's great finding an opponent's Gilded Lotus, and it's one of the very best cards in blue, but it just doesn't synergize with the rest of the deck very well. It's a fantastic card, but only if you get it when you hit 7-8 mana on the board. Any earlier and it's useless (forcing you to tap out and give up a turn), any later and it doesn't really synergize with what the rest of the deck is doing. For now, Evacuation is in. its0v3r9000 mentioned it in the thread, and I think it's a great solution to one of the deck's key weaknesses (swarm and creature-heavy games). This may eventually be replaced, but for now I'm liking it.
The last change sees Jace's Sanctum swapping in for Cunning Wish. The wish is arguably more powerful, but only if it's allowed to be used, and in my opinion it doesn't really fit the spirit of Commander. Jace's Sanctum is a perfect addition, giving us acceleration and enhanced top-decking abilities.
These changes involve minor tweaks to the deck's performance and consistency. Red Elemental Blast, Pyroblast, and Stifle were great fun when they had juicy targets, but I found myself rarely playing them. Though useful in certain scenarios, they did not perform consistently enough to keep their slots. Windfall was removed as it was, for me, the weakest handcycler. Fact or Fiction is stronger here in the early game, and late-game I had no problem hitting enough handcycling anyway. Crystal Ball was often underwhelming and expensive; it doesn't have the versatility (or, critically, cheap cmc) of Sensei's Top. Tezzeret is simply too expensive for what he was here - a tutor for Sensei's Top / Sol Ring / Mana Crypt.
The additions seek to improve the deck's weak points in both the early game (more mana acceleration and draw/dig) and the late (the draw/dig cards are equally useful for continuing / setting up game-winning combos). All Is Dust is included as a last-ditch option to unlock a difficult board state (especially if opponents control multiple powerful enchantments, which are otherwise difficult to deal with).
These changes reflect a desire to improve the consistency of the deck. Reforge the Soul, though expensive, has been added as the deck needs another Draw-7 to better establish board presence (an early Whirlpool Rider was simply a dead card). It will be less effective for "comboing out" due to the increased cost, but the Draw-7 effect helps the deck stabilize. Counterbalance has been replaced by Glen Elendra Archmage, as Counterbalance tends to draw hate and often didn't answer key spells as I would have liked (whereas an early Archmage solves lots of problems and doesn't require much untapped mana). Omniscience has been re-added to the list, as it is quite powerful in getting out of very sticky situations, especially when using Windfall effects to search for answers (when pitching cards to Dream Halls is a very bad thing). The cost is still steep, but I feel that it's worth it here. The last two additions reflects the deck's performance when artifact mana acceleration is available. Early artifacts significantly smooth the deck's ability to "setup" for the combo and respond to problems, and these significantly help the early-game. Also, the counterspell count is quite high, and I feel it's better to lose one counterspell (net, not including Counterbalance, which I don't include due to its variability) for much-improved early-game consistency.
These are all very interesting changes for me. Lots of the cards I'm leaving behind are VERY strong - often, staples in blue. As a result, it's been very tough to even consider cutting them, much less following through on it. However, they simply did not synergize that well, and I feel like the deck is at a critical mass for playing extremely smoothly. By removing these cards, I expect the consistency of the deck to increase even more (though, it's actually quite good already). Also, this deck is already SO flavorful, and I feel that these last cards take away from that... so we'll give it a shot!
The aim of the additions was increased deck manipulation and smoothing of the early game - Intuition, Show and Tell, and Mana Crypt will all help with that. Temporal Manipulation can be played much earlier than Time Stretch, so that change was made. Stifle has so many targets in this game, that I'd be remiss not to at least try it for a while, especially with so many ways to find it in a pinch.
I cannot stress how strong Sensei's Top and Future Sight are in this deck. They're freaking incredible. So, some these changes were made to interact directly with these cards. Which brings me to why Gamble is here - one, it's GREAT and very efficient when hand sizes are so large, but it also shuffles the library, allowing you to refresh the "Top package" or find new ways to combo off with Future Sight. It's very useful without them, but even stronger WITH them. Resetting the deck for 1cc to keep a combo juggling, or "get there", is a big deal here.
Tezzeret and Counterbalance are now here for the same reason (NOTE: Counterbalance is not so great in large groups - right now I'm typically playing against 1-2 people, where it's more effective. I would NOT recommend running it unless the table is small). Finding Sol Ring / Sensei's Top is a HUGE boon to the deck, so having another way to tutor for them is a big deal. Not to mention, the untap ability grants access to bigger mana earlier on (and, Tezzeret does not pose as direct a threat to other players as many planeswalkers, so I expect he'll be around a little longer).
First major overhaul in a long while! Changes focused on the following areas:
Well, over the last 10 months I have made a number of changes to the decklist, and it has slowly ended up like this. The deck in its current form plays very quietly, until it unexpectedly pounds through a win. This usually happens in a single turn, and often I am never at a loss for damage (when I combo out, there is virtually never any concern that I'll "run out of steam" before killing everyone). Now remember - this deck RECYCLES the graveyard, so there's no concern with decking yourself. As a result, Psychosis Crawler and Neko-Te proved to be dead weight every single time I drew them.... I don't think I was once happy to see them (Neko-Te in particular would draw me hate the second it hit play).
Continuing with this logic, protection for Niv-Mizzet was also rather meaningless - Dream Halls is this deck's path to victory (generally), and thus I would typically cast him the turn I'm winning, with plenty of counter backup or Teferi in play.
Nucklavee was too expensive, and I had yet to cast Dragon Mage even a SINGLE time in this deck's entire history. Kozilek was dead weight, and much less efficient than simply adding another recycler (Elixir of Immortality). A little acceleration was thrown in to speed things up, and a few minor changes were made to the landbase.
Finally, more answers were added to the deck in the form of Quicken, Leyline of Anticipation, Shattering Spree, Past in Flames, Merchant Scroll, and Laboratory Maniac. All VASTLY increase the number of "outs" for the deck, and every single addition has proven to be extremely valuable.
Diplomatic Immunity is inferior to the Greaves in most cases, this was a pretty simple change. Elixir was less than stellar unless needed, and Kozilek gives plenty more options when I can cast him (and simply gets recycled when I can't). Razormane Masticore is great, but I was always too afraid to actually play him, and most creatures are too big in EDH to really get killed anyway. Dream Halls is in, and it should have been from the beginning (see its section above).
UR [PRIMER] Flash of the Firemind (Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind) RU
BG Death and Staxes: FireStorm4056's Competitive Meren Stax List GB
W Avacyn Angel of Hope W
R Akroma, Angel of (Your Opponent's) Fury R
R 99-Mountain Ashling R
Lightning Greaves and Darksteel Plate look better than Clout of the Dominus and Diplomatic Immunity. They stay on the board after a sweeper, can be effectively used on all your creatures and can be tutored up by Fabricate. Plus, the enchantments keep you from being able to protect Niv from stuff like Hallowed Burial with your Crystal Shard and Riptide Laboratory, etc.
Also, Memory Jar is very good. Curiosity is fun too.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
Where's Basilisk Collar? I'd normally flip over its exclusion but Neko-Te could work I guess. It's a notable exclusion either way. You should justify why you took one over the other.
If you include Crystal Shard for ETB abuse, you have to justify why you didn't take Mimic Vat over it or alongside it. The vat is a house with the guys you are trying to abuse with it. Duplicants for is insane enough that I feel a primer should have a good reason why the deck doesn't want such a powerful synergy.
Volition Reins is a strictly better Confiscate. I prefer Gather Specimens or Draining Whelk to either anyway as you don't set yourself up to be blown out by a well-timed Disenchant or Acidic Slime.
Another poster suggested Kozilek, Butcher of Truth. I also feel you should say why he's not in here- he's a fantastic way to shuffle your graveyard when you aren't playing with Reliquary Tower and friends and he's a house if you ever actually cast him. He might be worth the spot over Elixir of Immortality.
I was going to say this. Auras suck. Play equipments whenever possible.
Also, you owe it to the readers to explain why you aren't playing Mind over Matter, Curiosity and/or Ophidian Eye. I don't because it's not my style, but why don't you? It would be cool if you had a separate section in the primer for "Why I don't play these infini-combo cards", where you explain the apparent no-infinite ideology and how it affected your card choices. Speaking of which, I see Beacon of Tomorrows without Planar Portal. Was that also intentional?
I'll also say, good points on Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast. Any competitive EDH playgroup will have more than one blue deck and these cards are such powerful and versatile hosers I'd say it's worth their inclusion. I will try to find a spot in my T+L deck for one.
Good start for the primer. Gotta work on some of the missed cards in either your deck or your "notable exclusions" section but it seems like it could get there
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
Anyways, after I killed two people in 4 consecutive turns with Arcanis, Niv-Mizzet, Top, Time Stretch, and Beacon of tomorrow comboed with windfall, mindmoil, and wheel of fortune, I'm pretty sure they've banned my deck from the playgroup
Team Brolo
PTQ Honolulu Top 8, 2010 Wisconsin Regionals 2nd place
If this wasn't a [PRIMER], then it's no big deal. Since it is though, you have to assume new players will find this thread and build from it. Don't you think they have the right to know that the combos exist, degenerate or not?
It's obviously up to the OP but I think if you're going to have a notable exclusions section, it'd be kind of silly to leave them out.
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
Because this is supposed to be a [PRIMER] about "one of the most powerful (if not THE most powerful) multiplayer decks" and there's blatant powerful exclusions that would make the deck better that aren't covered in the "notable exclusions" section of the OP. That's why.
Ultimately, it's his choice... but I think a thread calling itself a "Primer" for a general should include discussion on such cards.
My 630 Card Powered Cube
My Article - "Cube Design Philosophy"
My Article - "Mana Short: A study in limited resource management."
My 50th Set (P)review - Discusses my top 20 Cube cards from OTJ!
There are many ways to make a good Niv-Mizzet deck. Curiosity-Mind over Matter version are very boring as you said.
This version is quiet interesting but again, it falls into the obvious. Blue-Red is the color combination of Chaos in Magic, so why not try to stick with its roots. Maybe a crazy Artifact-theme. Or a Coin-flip version, or a all-in Howlling mine theme with awesome and creative ways to finish the game.
Niv-Mizzet is a Fun and powerfull general. However it's easy for anybody to make a deck that actually do good.
Not trying to jump on the bandwagon, but a Primer tag should better deliver the notable, yet really lame, combos a general offers.
I like how you point out the degenerate wins of Mind Over Matter, curiosity, and Ophidian eye. Indulge me a little, take a second to look closely at the rest of your post. You did the exact same thing those three cards would do, only it took you more cards and you playing with yourself (aka, multiple turns) for awhile.
Banner by Traproot Graphics
[RETIRED Primers]:
RW Aurelia, The Warleader --- R Daretti, Scrap Savant --- RUB Thraximundar
Though I may have neglected to mention it above, Curiosity / Ophidian Eye / Mind Over Matter have been purposefully excluded from my decklist. I find them to be uninteractive, stale, and frankly un-fun. They don't make for creative game-states and turn the deck into a boring two-card-combo finisher. HOWEVER, my apologies for not mentioning the reasons behind this in the OP itself - I fully intended to the following day, but completely forgot to come back to do so. Thanks to all for pointing out my oversight!
You make a few excellent points! To be honest, I haven't tried either of those cards. However, in my meta I have found that Darksteel Plate wouldn't be quite so useful, as there are a multitude of steal or exile effects. Clout of the Dominus is there to stay, it's extremely strong 1-mana protection with relevant boosts and grants the ability to draw one extra card (that could be pivotal in winning on that turn) for one mana. I'd go so far as to say that it's better than Lightning Greaves for the simple fact that it's cheaper and makes him that much harder to kill (and better on the attack if things get tough). Greaves is great, and if anything will probably replace Diplomatic Immunity, though I've always had a special place in my heart for that enchantment :). Memory Jar I definitely like, but my biggest problem with it is that it doesn't recycle my graveyard, and I don't have any problems finding D7's for equal or lesser cost which are able to do so. Perhaps it will find a place down the road, but when I tested it before it wasn't quite as good as I had hoped.
I love Rite, but I haven't really found a place where it really fits in quite yet. Generally speaking, it is actually inferior to Clone, surprisingly enough, and that is because Clone does not target (something that a startling number of people don't know). This means I can kill opposing Legendary creatures with protection and shroud without thinking twice. I will look for a place for Rite, though.
Basilisk Collar I may have to find a place for, but Neko-Te is particularly useful because it stops abilities and generals in their tracks. Killing something is never a bad thing, but much of the time EDH decks have ways to make them come back, or to just use this to their advantage with ETB triggers. I like the Collar, but Neko-Te kills the table more quickly and has a unique way of solving many problems.
Quite honestly, I have not tested Mimic Vat in this deck yet. Perhaps the biggest reason it wouldn't be included is that my creatures don't really hit the graveyard very often, surprisingly enough. I really want to test this card, however, because it has massive potential and I haven't really had the time in the last few months to really take it for a spin.
Volition Reins is not strictly better, especially when this deck is so hungry for blue sources. Remember that many counterspells require double blue, and tying up three sources with Volition Reins can be somewhat rough.... especially when nearly every other spell also costs at least one U. More often than not I am simply denying my opponents of an advantage (often a planeswalker), so I've found the untapping is not very relevant, whereas the ability to more consistently cast other blue spells is very helpful. Draining Whelk and Gather Specimens are excellent options, but it is important to understand that Confiscate is there to solve problems you didn't have the mana to counter in the first place. It SHOULD be noted that my playgroup is rather light on enchantment removal, so I don't have to worry as much about something like this.
An excellent point on Kozilek, I actually agree with that change.
As explained above, I choose not to include the infinite combos for much the same reason as you; my apologies for not having elaborated upon that initially, but I have since edited and fixed that! Planar Portal is exempt because it's simply too clunky. It's a huge target and a huge investment, and honestly it breaks down the consistency of the deck. If I draw it when I have a mana engine and counter-backup ready it's obviously good, but to be honest it's far from spectacular at any other time and wastes space in an otherwise great hand. Beacon of Tomorrows is there because it's a great way to take extra turns when you're constantly shuffling and burning through your deck.
Thanks
My apologies folks, it was quite early in the morning then and I was rushing to finish up the OP (I had spent a good deal of time on it and planned to come back later, but never got the chance to and forgot to edit and fix it).
Once again, thanks to all for the suggestions and pointers. I've edited things and hopefully fixed them up to your liking. PLEASE feel free to let me know if you have further comments or criticisms!
UR [PRIMER] Flash of the Firemind (Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind) RU
BG Death and Staxes: FireStorm4056's Competitive Meren Stax List GB
W Avacyn Angel of Hope W
R Akroma, Angel of (Your Opponent's) Fury R
R 99-Mountain Ashling R
You should definitely consider our points a bit more about Clout of the Dominus and Diplomatic Immunity. You lose those auras to a board wipe or a removal spell in response. I know you do some GY cycling but it's hurting you CA wise. Not to mention shroud is a non-bo with your Crystal Shard/Riptide Laboratory setup. Equipments are almost always the better choice. Sometime, take one out for Plate and see how you like it. It's not that big a deal if someone steals Niv anyway because they can't abuse him like you can and you can always legend-rule him out anyway with clone effects.
If an aura is doing something for you, consider how you can accomplish the same thing with other permanents. Card advantage is king in Commander and you should never set yourself up to be on the losing end of a two-for-one unless the reward is going to give you a fantastic advantage.
As for rite versus clone, Clone for you seems to have a very narrow purpose- killing shrouded generals. Rite, on the other hand, is way more versatile. It's a clone for the same cost, the only difference being targeting. Then, it's also a ravaging, answer-demanding haymaker at :9mana:. Have you ever hit a kicked rite on a Woodfall Primus? How bout a Terastodon? Guess what happens, my friend- that game is over. You win, and in fantastic fashion. The only reason should play Clone over Rite is if your meta has a lot of voltron Commanders you just can't kill otherwise because maybe you're light on wrath effects. If you were also playing White and/or Black, I could see it as well because they have a knack for recurring creatures. Even if you don't agree with me, at least test it out sometime. I can't tell you how many times I've Mystical Tutor-ed for Rite of Replication EOT and just owned the table after that.
On Confiscate, I find it surprising that any group is light on enchantment removal. All white decks have disenchant effects and all green decks have Acidic Slime, Krosan Grip, Woodfall Primus and friends. You play against Nicol Bolas and Thraximundar?
And I'm testing out Pyroblast
Also, you have no card tags around Dream Halls.
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
I will most definitely try these cards just to test them out - seems like a lot of people are pushing for them!
However, initial thoughts before testing:
Clout of the Dominus - The most significant thing about this card is that it's only a one-mana investment. More often than not it only needs to stick around for maybe a turn or two, and usually less. The biggest advantage here is that it's very conducive to quick wins, in the sense that with a single U or R you have protected him so that you may combo off that very turn. It MAY be card disadvantage if he is hit by a sweeper, but do remember that this deck doesn't really care so much about dropping CA on single cards - it is drawing so often that it is way ahead in that department anyway, so many times it really comes down to how many cards you can play to win (i.e. mana-efficiency is king), and less so whether or not one may be an otherwise inferior choice. For me, only needing to invest (R/U) is a huge enabler for comboing off, rather than needing to devote 5 (or 2 if it's already in play).
Rite of Replication - No qualms about this card, I'm excited to test it. Biggest "lack" of power, I guess, comes from the fact that my playgroup (surprisingly enough) tends to avoid green like it's the plague, so I don't always have the very useful ETB effects that it provides. TO go along with that, shrouded generals are a BIG problem (Uril is the only general of one of my friends, and Whispersilk Cloak effects are really popular). However, I am still DEFINITELY going to slip it in for a bit - I'm excited to try it!
Confiscate - It is pretty sad how little enchantment destruction my group plays, especially when there are so many enchantment-heavy decks running around in our group. But, it does make this card significantly better. However, I'm going to mess around with turning this into Rite of Replication or Vesuvan Doppelganger
Good luck with Pyroblast! I almost threw it in as a joke at first, thinking, "Eh, it'll probably hit something!" ....and then I realized it's singlehandedly (along with REB) one of the most powerful cards in multiplayer EDH. You flat out WILL ALWAYS have a use for it, and at R it's ridiculously aggressively costed, too.
UR [PRIMER] Flash of the Firemind (Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind) RU
BG Death and Staxes: FireStorm4056's Competitive Meren Stax List GB
W Avacyn Angel of Hope W
R Akroma, Angel of (Your Opponent's) Fury R
R 99-Mountain Ashling R
Be sure to run a good ration between Blue and Red cards.
Also, be carefull with the Artifact count. Just play the ones that are extremly necessary.
Don't run too many counterspells. Your hand It's going to be constantly changing, and counterspell are good when you plan to use by holding them in your hand for a while.
You use lots of Time Walk cards, and I don't, so that might slightly change a little bit what I just pointed out.
Cards that I think dont fit the Wheeling theme of Niv's:
Isurrection (A kill card? ...Maybe can't take its full potential by not having a sac outlet)
I understand their purpose, but like I mentioned before, It's very important to minimize the Artifact count as much as possible, and I dont see this two being extremly important for the deck.
1 Mountain?, 1 Island? 24 lands?
Lastly, What about Diminishing Returns?
My built is very similar, but I try to run lots of bounce so I can deal away the cards that I bounced back to opponents hands. It's fun to shuffle way Generals and Echantments that are so hard for the Blue/Red mage to deal with.
EDIT: oops, I saw your exclusions after writing this. You have this point already covered. My bad
EDH:▼
(links to 3D generals)
Playing: Designing:
Retired:
I do try to stick with colored spells as best I can, but I have found that the artifacts still in the decklist are quite valuable in accelerating and color fixing. I find that I have a good color distribution and almost always draw relevant spells off of the D7's, so I don't really run into any hiccups. As far as counterspells, there has not been a time when I'm unhappy to draw one. I agree that they're better when you have the opportunity to pick and choose your targets, but one of the hard things about playing this deck is you have to be willing and able to toss a Mana Drain back into the deck for a new hand. I know this may sound crazy, but in the end the higher density of counterspells means you're likely to get another in the new hand anyway.
Insurrection is straight-up a game-winner, no questions asked. It has zero synergy with the rest of the deck, but honestly that's its biggest strength. That eight mana can completely flip the gamestate, and there have been plenty of times where I was positive that my deck wouldn't really be able to produce an answer, and then I drew this baby and everything changed. No, it's not that flavorful or relevant to the rest of the stack but sometimes it's just the ticket you need when you can't drive things home by conventional means (or need to turn the tides).
Mizzium Transreliquat is powerful because it's essentially a second Gilded Lotus or Sol Ring for the deck, and often can copy things which are even better. At a table with 3-4 people, there's almost always a juicy target for this and it's nondescript too, which means you won't be attacked for killing someone's permanent. It doesn't have any immediate synergies with MY list, but it always finds a way to work, and work well. Neko-Te is unbelievably good, it stops some of the best creature combos in the game and can serve as the nail in the coffin when you're comboing off. Remember that this not only completely disables most creature abilities, but also makes Niv do double-damage to players, which can bring you the extra distance at the end of a combo.
Yessir, I like me some graveyard recycling
UR [PRIMER] Flash of the Firemind (Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind) RU
BG Death and Staxes: FireStorm4056's Competitive Meren Stax List GB
W Avacyn Angel of Hope W
R Akroma, Angel of (Your Opponent's) Fury R
R 99-Mountain Ashling R
Jin-Gitaxias seems strong, but I'm not sure how well it would fit in the deck. There are just a few fundamental problems I have with it:
- Because discard phases are only at the end of turn, opponents would still get to utilize cards that they draw, whether through their ordinary draw step or through other means. This alone makes me think he isn't really worth it because by the time the game is late enough that he could land, people are usually playing out their hand when they draw.... and the control decks that don't usually have plenty of ways to abuse the graveyard anyway.
- My deck plays a lot of Draw7's, so there is plenty of time for opponents to use their fresh new hands in the same way as in the previous point
- The first "turn round" he hits, everyone might still have a lot of cards in-hand... thus, there are likely a lot of answers to him.
- He's overall weak in general, with low toughness and no protection. If a spell in someone's hand doesn't kill him, it's almost certain an ability can.
- Niv-Mizzet decks are already hated on like crazy, but the first time I land this I can almost guarantee I'll be the first deck killed almost every game. People hate not having a hand.
- Cost is extremely prohibitive, I don't see him ever "winning" the game for me. It's a neat effect but this deck is Combo and not Control, so it's a lot better to have efficiently-costed "hand-recycling" cards than it is to have big guns like this.
What I am considering running though is a new card recently spoiled in M12:
I really have trouble running Reflecting Pool because this deck NEEDS to hit both red and blue early on. City of Brass does that for me but Reflecting Pool doesn't. I'm out of town for the summer for an internship but Command Tower will definitely see a spot once I get back and have a bit of time to update the list!
UR [PRIMER] Flash of the Firemind (Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind) RU
BG Death and Staxes: FireStorm4056's Competitive Meren Stax List GB
W Avacyn Angel of Hope W
R Akroma, Angel of (Your Opponent's) Fury R
R 99-Mountain Ashling R
I've had a great time developing it so far and look forward to continuing to do so - thanks to everyone for their questions, comments, and support!!
UR [PRIMER] Flash of the Firemind (Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind) RU
BG Death and Staxes: FireStorm4056's Competitive Meren Stax List GB
W Avacyn Angel of Hope W
R Akroma, Angel of (Your Opponent's) Fury R
R 99-Mountain Ashling R
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon, the Destroyer of Darksteel
BGW Teneb, the Harvester, my Pimped Out Reanimator
GUB The Mimeoplasm Ooze-Mill
GWU Rafiq the Exalted
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
PS: add Tandem Lookout from avacyn to the cards you dont use