This is my first time really posting a deck list, so bear with me! I've been playing this deck for about a year and a half. It took a bit of a break when Prime Time got banned, but I've since re-designed it, and I think it's better than ever.
At this point, I'm at a bit of a wall as to how the deck can improve. So what I'm really looking for here are some suggestions on how to get it going better! I'd like to be able to discuss options for improving the deck list, or alternate lines of play I might have missed.
I'm going to do a full run down on the deck in a Primer like fashion since I really have put a lot of thought into the deck and would love the feedback, or to share my tactics. Please feel free to comment!
Card Choices
Here I'll list some of the more interesting choices, and why I've chosen them. I'll begin with the lands:
Dual Lands, Fetch Lands, Rainbow Lands – These are pretty obvious choices. They set mana – that's their only purpose. I've considered including shock lands as well, but I just can't find the room for them. In general, I've found that I rarely have trouble producing the colors I need, so I can't justify pulling out utility lands for more color fixing.
Utility Lands
Volrath's Stronghold, Deserted Temple, Phyrexian Tower- – These are the lands that hold the deck together. Though they are not necessary for the deck to win, they create some very powerful situations in my favor. Stronghold thrives on the ability of the deck to fill the graveyard. In general there aren't that many creatures, but the ones that are in the deck can change the game significantly. Temple and Tower have been MVP's in so many games. Temple allows for shenanigans like untapping a Boseiju, Who Shelters All the turn it comes into play, activating Gaea's Cradle or Cabal Coffers twice in one turn, or untapping Volrath's Stronghold, Phrexian Tower, Maze of Ith, or Yavimaya Hollow. Tower on the other hand, allows you to cast a Reveillark and sack it to get it's effect for 2 mana less than the Evoke cost, or create every turn Eternal Witness loops.
Kor Haven, Maze of Ith – Defensive cards. These allow me to survive a lot of the general damage decks out there that don't bother to shroud their general. They also stop a lot of shenanigans with unlockable creatures, or creatures that have effects when they do damage.
Dryad Arbor – I've had a lot of people tell me this card is useless in EDH because they assume my goal is to Green Sun's Zenith for it on turn one. This is not at all the purpose of this card, and Zenith for it is one of the worst plays I can think of. My primary purpose for including was to enable Fauna Shaman and Survival of the Fittest. I was having difficultyf ensuring that these could be activated consistently, and I decided that swapping out my 4th forest of Arbor was a good deal.
Bounce Lands – These aren't classified as mana setting for me. For the most part they are more useful in recurring Bojuka Bog, Vesuva, and utility lands in combination with Deserted Temple.
Wasteland, Strip Mine – As a rule, I don't use these to mana-screw people. Lately I've been killing off a lot of Thespian Stages to keep my legendary lands alive, but otherwise they are there just to kill off opposing utility lands.
Cycle Lands – Anyone who's seen Agro Loam work in legacy will know what these cards are for. Primarily their interaction with Life from the Loam is of interest. Not only do they allow me to Dredge multiple times in a turn, they also protect Loam from graveyard hate by dredging at instant speed.
Ramp Spells
Azusa, Lost but Seeking, Oracle of Mul Daya, Exploration – These cards are what make this deck shine. I like to throw out as many lands as possible early one, and all of these assist with that. Combine any of them with Horn of Greed and the draw engine is very powerful. It far outweighs the disadvantage of allowing the opposition to draw cards. These are the cards I tutor for more often than not. If I have any form of deck manipulation (Sensei's Divining Top, Sylvan Library) or other card advantage engine, I'll go for Oracle since combined with other engines it digs through the deck very fast. If I already have a hand full of lands, I'll go for Azusa to get them out and ramp up.
The remainder of the choices are pretty bland. The only one that I can discuss a little futher is the Birds of Paradise. It's a card that feels a bit underpowered in EDH, but if you look above on my discussion on Dryad Arbor, you'll find my rational for the Bird.
Card Advantage
Mirri's Guile, Sylvan Library, Sensei's Divining Top – These are the best card quality engines I can find – If you know of one better – let me know! They both create some very good stability in drawn cards. Combine either with fetch lands or other shuffle effects, and they get really powerful. Also, both are great at setting the deck for Horn of Greed abuse.
That brings us to Horn of Greed – Probably the best draw engine in the deck. With all of the “play extra lands” abilities, and the amount the deck relies on having utility lands in play – this card is the first card I'll tutor for.
Scroll Rack – If you don't know how this card can be abused, go back to Magic school and take a few more classes. The craziness you can pull off with this card is just absurd. One of my favorite plays is to put a bunch of lands on top, then Dredge Life from the Loam, and then cast Loam to get the lands back. You're effectively spending three mana to draw 3 cards.
Constant Mists – Combined with the ability to play multiple lands per turn, and to play lands from the graveyard, this is basically a “I can't lose” card against any agro-only strategy. It's just too powerful not to include.
Scavenging Ooze – Since I need some kind of grave hate against other yard strategys, this little bugger is in here. He's Zenith-able, or tutor-able by all the other creature tutors. Not to mention with Gaea's Cradle he's pretty nuts.
Tutors
Most of these are straight forward. I don't really see the need to expound on them much more. Except to mention the most common plays with Entomb. Typically if it's in my opener, I'll tutor up Life from the Loam. Otherwise, it's usually good to tutor a land if you have a Loam, or a creature if you have Stronghold or Genesis.
Removal
I feel like my removal package is also straight forward. Aura Shards is nuts with Avenger of Zendikar, and Martial Coup combines well with Gaea's Cradle and Cabal Coffers. Merciless Eviction is a new addition I'm not quite convinced with yet. Rout is by far my favorite removal spell ever. More often than not I use it to respond to an Exile effect by destroying my own creatures so they can be recurred.
Recursion
This is where the deck starts getting fun!
Crucible of Worlds, Life from the Loam – These cards are some of the core of the deck. They enable the graveyard to supply lands instead of having to draw them. This allows me to draw business, and still hit land drops.
Revillark, Eternal Witness, and Karmic Guide – Again, if you don't know how they work together, think about it for a moment... Think really hard. These cards working together can make the deck shine. Also, Witness gets back anything I might need, and combined Phyrexian Tower and either Genesis or Volrath's Stronghold can make some serious problem for your opponents.
Genesis – This guy is really important. You can pitch a creature to Survival of the Fittest, get him, and pitch him as well, then get your initial creature back during your upkeep. Also, he can be Green Sun's Zenithed for, then saced to Phyrexian Tower.
Win Conditions
Here's is how the deck wins.... In casual games I tend to go for Rude Awakening and kill off my opponents in the most comical way possible. If there's prize on the line, I'll probably go for Avenger of Zendikar, and run the recursion engines to the ground. I've had games where I've played Avenger six or seven times in the face of board wipes, and eventually just ground my opponents out of spells to deal with the situation. It's not as fun as Awakening, but it proves the resilience of the deck. Concordant Crossroads allows for same turn wins with Avenger. Vigor on the other hand isn't really a win con, but he's here because he makes either my lands or Avenger tokens really nuts. Also, he's the one card (with occasional combination with Zeniths) that keep me from ever decking. I've watched opponents on the mill plan flip over Vigor from my deck, and cry when they realize they'll never win by milling me.
General Early Game
In general a keep-able hand has a tutor, Entomb, Life From the Loam, Hermit Druid, or Oracle of Mul Daya. Semi-keep-able hands would include any of the draw engines with sufficient land to cast them. Some removal is also usually helpful.
The first few turns usually go slowly (as is typical with EDH). If I can resolve one of the enablers early (Druid, Oracle of Mul Daya, Life from the Loam), then I can usually get going pretty quickly. Game play proceeds a bit differently depending on which enabler I have.
With Hermit Druid, I can advance very quickly if the correct cards are flipped off the deck. The best combination to see if Life from the Loam and Volrath's Stronghold as this makes the rest of the deck work. There are many lines of play once the graveyard is full, and I'm sure most experienced EDH players will be able to spot them.
With Life from the Loam in the starter, I prefer to have a fetch to start with, and even better would be a cycle land. Casting Loam with no targets is fine, as it allows me to begin to fill the graveyard with useful things. This strategy proceeds a bit slower, but can become explosive if a Stronghold shows up and the right creatures.
With tutors in the starter, there are a few lines of play. It mostly depends on which tutor I have. Creature tutors usually go for Hermit Druid since it's the fastest way to activate the deck. Alternatively (if I have a Horn of Greed for example, I'll go for Oracle of Mul Daya. This combination is pretty nuts, as you can run out lands off the top of your deck, and potentially dig through 4 cards per turn.
Starting hands with draw engines are simply hoping to draw into one of these enablers that will allow the deck to get going.
Mid to Late Game
This tends to be the part of the game where the deck begins to shine. The board wipes and other removal help me to survive long enough to get here. Once I've got a draw engine, or recursion engine online, I unusually go nuts.
The majority of the deck is simply built around resolving one of the win conditions, then recurring it until the opponents run out of answers.
The biggest weaknesses of the deck are graveyard hate, and exile effects.
Summary
I think the deck is pretty darn resilient to just about any strategy. It's certainly not good for one on one play unless it gets a phenomenal start. If people don't know what I'm doing, I'll often be able to “durdle” for a while. By the time they figure out what I'm actually doing, it's usually too late.
So I'd love to hear your comments on the deck, I want to make improvements to the deck, but I'd like to keep the general theme the same.
Wurm Harvest seems like an obvious inclusion for another win condition or way to stall out the board.
Im surprised there are no 'sac lands' in the form of
I feel like you could definitely cut rupture spire and city of brass for basics.
(I take that back, I didnt see Hermit Druid...)
If GY hate is really the only thing that trumps you try running Pithing Needle stops more GY hate, and is almost never a dead draw Praetor's Grasp Grabs their hate, at worst its a Sisay's Ring Sadistic Sacrement late game kicked its a blowout, early game it protects you from your Achilles heel Riftsweeper If you know stuff if getting RFG'd, one of the least useful options but less intrusive Jester's Cap obvious cap is obvious
Or you can use the stuff that gives you hexproof, but it doesnt cover all GY hate.
Other than those suggestions the only real "upgrade" you can do is more like an overhaul- and that is going to 5 colors to run child of alara. I just built the deck last week and Im loving it. I started out with Teneb in the deck, took him out for borb 2.0, but its likely Ill go back to Teneb. I definitely run less permanents, but its very much a similar playstyle.
Great ideas! I can't believe I didn't think of Worm Harvest, the card fits so well!
For sac outlets, I do have Phyrexian tower in there, but I quite honestly didn't realize there were so many more. I think I might take your advice and drop the Spire for the Grim Backwoods - it seems the most useful one next to Tower.
I'll have to see if I can find room for some of the grave hate. Most of my games are very casual, and exiling three cards from my opponents deck feels a bit dirty. LOL... I'll keep it in mind though. Some of the other options good - I've considered Riftsweeper before, so maybe I'll go that route. I don't want it to be TOO easy to win lol
Can you toss me a link to a list for your Child deck? I'd be interested to see what you've done with the concept.
I actually played a game last night where I had 2/3 of my library exiled. I still ended up winning. Creeping Renaissance floating the flashback mana, and in response sacing all my lands to Zuran Orb, then discarding 22 lands to seismic assault before recasting creeping Renaissance to do it again- so its possible to still win with having a ton of stuff exiled
I actually played a game last night where I had 2/3 of my library exiled. I still ended up winning. Creeping Renaissance floating the flashback mana, and in response sacing all my lands to Zuran Orb, then discarding 22 lands to seismic assault before recasting creeping Renaissance to do it again- so its possible to still win with having a ton of stuff exiled
I just looked over your list, and it looks like a lot of fun It's a bit more combo than mine is, but there are still a lot of similaraties. I've added Worm Harvest and a few other things to the deck, and OMG - Harvest is insane.
Just today, I had 47 tokens on the board after casting it a few times in one turn. Unluckily, my opponent recurred an Izzet Staticaster! Had to deal with that before I could go anywhere LOL.
I've also considered Zuran Orb, but I've never been able to sac enough to make it worthwhile. I suppose Creeping Renesance makes it well worthwhile though LOL.
+1 Plains - I decided that one additional basic land would be good to keep me from killing myself too quickly with Hermit Druid. It also makes Crucible + Fetch Lands less likely to Fail-to-Find.
+1 Grim Backwoods - Another sac outlet. For this one I was on the fence between this and Miren, the Moaning Well. I decided on Backwoods because it doubles as a card draw engine.
+1 Angel of Despair - More abuse for sac and recursion. I like the added removal here.
+1 Woodfall Primus - Same as Angel. This one is even cooler because of the persist.
+1 Worm Harvest - Best addition so far. When Druid manages to flip half my deck, this card just takes over the game.
Removed Cards
-1 Rupture Spire - Too slow - the tapped + paying 1 mana made it a liability early in the game.
-1 Phyrexian Arena - Also too slow, and replaced with better things.
-1 Defense of the Heart - I found that this card relied too much my opponents board states, and it often got disenchanted before going off.
-1 Merciless Eviction - Still on the fence here. It's a great spell, but usually ends up exiling something of mine, and I'd prefer to be able to recur my stuff.
-1 Yawgmoth's Will - I never used it. It's so powerful, and one of my favorite cards ever, but with the other recursion in the deck - just not needed.
-1 Concordant Crossroads - Unnecessary when I'm going on an attrition plan. Usually I just grind my opponents out, and this card give them more of an advantage than it does me. I lose same turn kills, but it's ok.
I'm liking these changes a lot, as they drive me to use my general more, and they allow for more graveyard shenanigans. So - loving the deck even more! I'd be happy to hear your comments on my changes, or any further improvements.
Time for an update to the deck list! I've made a few changes, mostly to the mana base, and my ability to manipulate lands. So here's the current deck list. I'll go over the changes afterwards.
Swamp, Forest - I was finding that Hermit Druid wasn't as effective as I would have liked, so I reduced the number of basics a bit, and this also helped to make room for the Shocks which are a fantastic inclusion.
Thespian's Stage - While I love the flavor of this card, and it's got a great design - It's just too slow. More often than not I'd tap it down for colorless for 5 turns, and the game would be over before I could copy something. It's only really good very early in the game when you don't have much to spend mana on and you can afford to spend the time assigning it to copy something.
Dryad Arbor - I removed Fauna Shaman for reasons you'll see in a second, but with only Survival of the Fittest begging for creatures to discard I figured I could cut this for better lands. It is unfortunate though, since my arbor is actually a Bosco Driade!
Murmuring Bosk - Another land that is just too slow. I liked it because I could fetch it and it produced all of my colors, but with the inclusion of shocks it was greatly outclassed.
Skyshroud Claim - I really love this card, and I'm still on the fence about keeping it. The biggest problem is that it makes my fetches more likely to whiff later in the game when I need shuffle effects. I'd prefer to get a land out of the deal.
Fauna Shaman - Another card that I deemed to be just too slow. I had considered including Hall of the Bandit Lord just for shaman and druid, but it seemed a stretch just to make these cards a tad better.
Martial Coup - I think I had too many board wipes, and this one is the only one that has a condition to actually clearing the board - it's also very expensive. So I cut it in favor of the more reliable wipes.
Vigor - I rarely cast him, and if I did he usually died before doing anything much. Having him in as protection against mill was a bit much - he just didn't do anything.
Added Cards:
Overgrown Tomb, Temple Garden, Godless Shrine - I've been wanting to add shocks for a long time, and I'm very happy I finally got around to it. They increase the reliability of the mana base emmensly, and fetching for them and taking 2 really isn't that big of a deal.
Misty Rainforest - I decided to add in another fetch just to increase the reliability of the mana base, and to make it more likely that I'll be able to recur a fetch for shuffle effects.
Riftstone Portal - Wow, I don't know how I missed this card before. Once it's in the yard, most of my mana problems are just over.
Burgeoning - Still testing this one, and I might yank it for something else if I don't like it. Biggest problem is that it doesn't trigger Horn of Greed.
Zuran Orb - Another tester. In one goldfish I sacked most of my lands floating mana to cast a couple of Worm Harvests, then recurred most of the land in 2 turns. Cheeky!
Sylvan Tutor - Just another tutor. I've been meaning to add this one for a long time, but it wasn't till recently that my local store got one and I snagged it.
Dread Return - With the increase in token generation that I've got with Worm Harvest I thought this card would be good to bring back. I had it in before, but often found I didn't have enough creatures. Hopefully that will be different now.
The deck is still working very well. Streamlined and efficient. As always I'm open to suggestions, different card choices, strategies, etc.
I'm going to image the deck soon. I'm very close to having the whole deck black border (the next step is foiling the lands LOL). So look for that in the next few days (hopefully the mail comes!)
Ok, I took a couple of pics of the best looking cards in the deck. My idea of "pimping" doesn't necessarily mean foiling out the deck, though for this one I'll probably aim to foil out all of the lands, since they are the focus of the deck. For the rest I'll aim for foreign black border. While I like Chinese and Japanese print, I prefer to find German or Italian cards.
Gaze of Granite - I've never used Pernicious Deed in the deck, but this seems like a doable board wipe for decks running non-creature permanents. Biggest problem is that it's likely to set me back pretty far as well.
Obzedat's Aid - If Beacon of Unrest is good, then this should be? Never mind that beacon reshuffles. This targets anything, not just a creature or artifact. It's another straight recursion spell like Eternal Witness - something I've been looking for!
I'll give these some testing and post back what I figure out.
Sun Titan does seem like a good choice. I could use another animation spell to bring it back, and get back a Horn of Greed or something. Seems good. I'm not too sure on Saffi Eriksdotter. She can only recur something that's already in play, and the problem I'm running into is accidentally milling a card I need with Hermit Druid. In that case I need Eternal Witness (or now Obzidat's Aid) to get it back. Sun Titan fits that bill better.
I do have a playset of Pernicious Deeds, but I think I'm going to find that my current board wipes are just better than Gaze. In my playgroup I don't often have the trouble of needing to kill much other than creatures. Though I might throw it in if I start seeing a good number of decks running non-creature interactions.
And... Yes... Damonischer Lehrmeister is just fantastic I just snagged a foil Kor Haven the other day too! I'll pop up a pic of that beauty soon as it arrives in the mail
Interesting that you carry as many lands as most Azusa lists. I think Azusa is faster by 2-3 turns but having access to black tutors makes your mid and late game stronger. Have you considered devoting more cards towards speeding up your start out of the gate?
I am slow, and I've considered a few things, but I'd be open to some suggestions. I want to keep the deck at a strong casual though. As soon as it starts to feel too competitive, I usually tone it down a bit.
What would you suggest for speeding it up? Most of the ramp spells I've tried have been lackluster. With how amazing cards like Skyshroud Claim are, they just don't feel like they do enough.
You are correct though, my mid to late game are very strong. Aggressive decks rip me apart if I can't find a board wipe quickly. But again, it wouldn't be as much fun if I won every game
I'm also testing Crop Rotation in place of Burgeoning. The latter was awkward and didn't trigger Horn of Greed, whereas rotation serves as a tutor for the exact land I need at the time.
I am slow, and I've considered a few things, but I'd be open to some suggestions. I want to keep the deck at a strong casual though. As soon as it starts to feel too competitive, I usually tone it down a bit.
What would you suggest for speeding it up? Most of the ramp spells I've tried have been lackluster. With how amazing cards like Skyshroud Claim are, they just don't feel like they do enough.
You are correct though, my mid to late game are very strong. Aggressive decks rip me apart if I can't find a board wipe quickly. But again, it wouldn't be as much fun if I won every game
I'm also testing Crop Rotation in place of Burgeoning. The latter was awkward and didn't trigger Horn of Greed, whereas rotation serves as a tutor for the exact land I need at the time.
Crop Rotation is very nice, as is Scapeshift. You may also want to take a look at Lotus Cobra and Stone-Seeder Hierophant. I assume Mana Crypt, Sylvan Primordial, and Natural Order are not in your list due to power level?
It's tough to win 50% of all your games on a good 4 man table. If you can win higher than that consistently you've got a real tight list, or you're a deft politician
Yes, I'm finding that I really like Crop Rotation. I'm not sure I'm as much of a fan of Scapeshift though. The fact that the lands come into play tapped is a bit of an annoyance. If it was instant speed, I'd like it a lot more
I really like Stone-Seeder Hierophant, thanks for pointing that one out. I think I'll need to find a slot for it in there somewhere. Lotus Cobra on the other hand feels a bit less useful. I might try testing it out and see if it can give me some quick ramp when I have it. The problem is that once I get going, it doesn't do anything. Most of the cards in the deck at the moment are good at least mid through late game, if not early through late. None of them are particularly hideous draws late game. Cobra would be just... bad LOL
And you are correct, Crypt, Prymordial and Natural Order are just too good. I originally ran Primeval Titan in this deck, and my friends hated me for it. That got me thinking that I needed to make a deck that was lots of fun to play, very well balanced, and.... occasionally lost!
Thanks for the input. I'm definitely going to try out the Hierphant!
Here's the testing results for the moment. Most are from goldfishing, but there's also a lot of actual play in there too. I don't have any exact numbers, just going on the feel of things!
Sun Titan - I've only tested this a little bit. It seems to work OK, but it also feels clunky. I'm not sure why. There are quite a few permanents that I can recur with it, but in testing I always ended up hitting a land. This needs more testing.
Zuran Orb - Doesn't do enough! It's great to keep me alive, but it doesn't further my game plan at all. I've cut it from the list.
Obzedat's Aid - Strictly better than Beacon of Unrest. Being able to hit any card is so much better than just a creature or artifact. The shuffle effect of Beacon is all but irrelevant as I think I can count on one hand the number of times I've drawn it again.
Burgeoning - Doesn't interact well with the rest of the deck. I want to trigger landfall and Horn of Greed every time I play a land, and this doesn't hit Horn. Every time I had it in play, I simply wished it was Exploration.
Gaze of Granite - Lackluster at best. In most cases it sat in my hand because I didn't have the recursion to recover after blowing up the board. I think I'll stick to Angel of Despair and Woodfall Primus to deal with troublesome non-creature cards.
I just put Stone-Seeder Hierophant in today for testing, so hopefully in a few days I'll have some results for that!
Hag Hedge-Mage - I found this lovely chick when I was searching for Eternal Witness effects. So far I've always had the two forests necessary to trigger her important ability, and usually enough draw power to get the card right away. She's not as powerful as Eternal Witness, but she's damn close. Loving her so far.
I've taken out two cards to put these in:
Black Sun's Zenith - For the past few weeks, I've been considering removing this. I know it's important for killing indestructible stuff, but I've had it sitting in my hand wishing it was a Wrath of God on multiple occasions. So we'll see what happens, it might go back in if I start seeing Eldrazi again!
Here's the current deck list, it's running very smoothly. I want to do some more testing with Sun Titan, but I'm not sure what card to take out for it at the moment.
Playing a 6 person game the other day, and its a major stailmate for a good 5 turns when I finally draw a Worldly Tutor with Rude Awakening in hand, and a million lands in play (along with a Gaea's Cradle.
At the end of the last person's turn, I tutor up [CARD]Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
[/CARD]. Then on my turn I float a million mana, cast Rude Awakening, the float mana off of Cradle. Finally I cast Kamahl. To which the Bant player respond with Rite of Replication on the Zombie deck's Noxious Ghoul... So all my lands die, and I have a summoning sick Kamahal with a million mana....
I think for a second, then look at my hand and realize I still have a Wrath of God. So thinking vengeance is sweet, I turn all of the Bant player's lands into creatures and then Wrath.
We both pretty much lose the game at that point LOL. Fun story, and he gets lots of props for whipping out my lands like that.
I've just recently come across it, and I think it might be worth adding to the deck, I just have to find a good slot to replace for it. It has a lot of potential with Avenger of Zendikar.
I haven't edited the deck much lately because I haven't been able to play a lot. New job and all. But hopefully I'll get to play more soon!
Elspeth, Sun's Champion - I love this chick. 3 1/1s for her +1 is just too good. Her removal as well can be good in EDH. The ultimate is a bit lackluster in EDH, but it's still good. All that said, I've never had a plainswalker in this deck before, and I'm not quite sure they fit the theme.
Whip of Erebos - Only recurs for the win, otherwise it gets exiled, and I don't like that. The lifelink might be relevant, but I don't really attack that much until someone is going to die. So probably not this one.
Bow of Nylea - Another maybe. The biggest ability here is putting three cards back into your deck for tutors to hit. I honestly don't think the deathtouch is that big of a deal in EDH.
Ashen Rider - Who am I kidding... I've already take out my Angel of Despair for this guy. Just need to find a spot for both!
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This is my first time really posting a deck list, so bear with me!
At this point, I'm at a bit of a wall as to how the deck can improve. So what I'm really looking for here are some suggestions on how to get it going better! I'd like to be able to discuss options for improving the deck list, or alternate lines of play I might have missed.
I'm going to do a full run down on the deck in a Primer like fashion since I really have put a lot of thought into the deck and would love the feedback, or to share my tactics. Please feel free to comment!
So without further ado, here's the deck!
1 Teneb, the Harvester
Lands - Mana Setting (19)
1 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Murmuring Bosk
1 Command Tower
1 City of Brass
1 Rupture Spire
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
1 Wooded Foothills
Lands - Utility (24)
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Yavimaya Hollow
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Deserted Temple
1 Kor Haven
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Homeward Path
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Maze of Ith
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Vesuva
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Barren Moor
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Orzhov Basilica
1 Selesnya Sanctuary
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Coalition Relic
1 Sol Ring
1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Exploration
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
Card Advantage (8)
1 Mind's Eye
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Sylvan Library
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Horn of Greed
1 Scroll Rack
1 Hermit Druid
General Utility (2)
1 Constant Mists
1 Scavenging Ooze
Tutors (11)
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Entomb
1 Eladamri's Call
1 Chord of Calling
1 Defense of the Heart
1 Vampiric Tutor
Removal (13)
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Terastodon
1 Aura Shards
1 Mortify
1 Putrefy
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Damnation
1 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Wrath of God
1 Martial Coup
1 Merciless Eviction
1 Rout
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Reveillark
1 Eternal Witness
1 Karmic Guide
1 Genesis
1 Life from the Loam
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Animate Dead
1 Necromancy
1 Beacon of Unrest
Win Con (5)
1 Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
1 Vigor
1 Concordant Crossroads
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Rude Awakening
Card Choices
Here I'll list some of the more interesting choices, and why I've chosen them. I'll begin with the lands:
Dual Lands, Fetch Lands, Rainbow Lands – These are pretty obvious choices. They set mana – that's their only purpose. I've considered including shock lands as well, but I just can't find the room for them. In general, I've found that I rarely have trouble producing the colors I need, so I can't justify pulling out utility lands for more color fixing.
Utility Lands
Ramp Spells
Card Advantage
General Utility
Tutors
Most of these are straight forward. I don't really see the need to expound on them much more. Except to mention the most common plays with Entomb. Typically if it's in my opener, I'll tutor up Life from the Loam. Otherwise, it's usually good to tutor a land if you have a Loam, or a creature if you have Stronghold or Genesis.
Removal
I feel like my removal package is also straight forward. Aura Shards is nuts with Avenger of Zendikar, and Martial Coup combines well with Gaea's Cradle and Cabal Coffers. Merciless Eviction is a new addition I'm not quite convinced with yet. Rout is by far my favorite removal spell ever. More often than not I use it to respond to an Exile effect by destroying my own creatures so they can be recurred.
Recursion
This is where the deck starts getting fun!
Win Conditions
Here's is how the deck wins.... In casual games I tend to go for Rude Awakening and kill off my opponents in the most comical way possible. If there's prize on the line, I'll probably go for Avenger of Zendikar, and run the recursion engines to the ground. I've had games where I've played Avenger six or seven times in the face of board wipes, and eventually just ground my opponents out of spells to deal with the situation. It's not as fun as Awakening, but it proves the resilience of the deck. Concordant Crossroads allows for same turn wins with Avenger. Vigor on the other hand isn't really a win con, but he's here because he makes either my lands or Avenger tokens really nuts. Also, he's the one card (with occasional combination with Zeniths) that keep me from ever decking. I've watched opponents on the mill plan flip over Vigor from my deck, and cry when they realize they'll never win by milling me.
General Early Game
In general a keep-able hand has a tutor, Entomb, Life From the Loam, Hermit Druid, or Oracle of Mul Daya. Semi-keep-able hands would include any of the draw engines with sufficient land to cast them. Some removal is also usually helpful.
The first few turns usually go slowly (as is typical with EDH). If I can resolve one of the enablers early (Druid, Oracle of Mul Daya, Life from the Loam), then I can usually get going pretty quickly. Game play proceeds a bit differently depending on which enabler I have.
With Hermit Druid, I can advance very quickly if the correct cards are flipped off the deck. The best combination to see if Life from the Loam and Volrath's Stronghold as this makes the rest of the deck work. There are many lines of play once the graveyard is full, and I'm sure most experienced EDH players will be able to spot them.
With Life from the Loam in the starter, I prefer to have a fetch to start with, and even better would be a cycle land. Casting Loam with no targets is fine, as it allows me to begin to fill the graveyard with useful things. This strategy proceeds a bit slower, but can become explosive if a Stronghold shows up and the right creatures.
With tutors in the starter, there are a few lines of play. It mostly depends on which tutor I have. Creature tutors usually go for Hermit Druid since it's the fastest way to activate the deck. Alternatively (if I have a Horn of Greed for example, I'll go for Oracle of Mul Daya. This combination is pretty nuts, as you can run out lands off the top of your deck, and potentially dig through 4 cards per turn.
Starting hands with draw engines are simply hoping to draw into one of these enablers that will allow the deck to get going.
Mid to Late Game
This tends to be the part of the game where the deck begins to shine. The board wipes and other removal help me to survive long enough to get here. Once I've got a draw engine, or recursion engine online, I unusually go nuts.
The majority of the deck is simply built around resolving one of the win conditions, then recurring it until the opponents run out of answers.
The biggest weaknesses of the deck are graveyard hate, and exile effects.
Summary
I think the deck is pretty darn resilient to just about any strategy. It's certainly not good for one on one play unless it gets a phenomenal start. If people don't know what I'm doing, I'll often be able to “durdle” for a while. By the time they figure out what I'm actually doing, it's usually too late.
So I'd love to hear your comments on the deck, I want to make improvements to the deck, but I'd like to keep the general theme the same.
Cheers Everyone,
Frank
Im surprised there are no 'sac lands' in the form of
To reuse ETB triggers with Teneb.
Mikokoro, Center of the Sea Is a great utility land to get you out of topdeck mode. It just gets ridiculous with Mind's Eye out.
I feel like you could definitely cut rupture spire and city of brass for basics.
(I take that back, I didnt see Hermit Druid...)
If GY hate is really the only thing that trumps you try running
Pithing Needle stops more GY hate, and is almost never a dead draw
Praetor's Grasp Grabs their hate, at worst its a Sisay's Ring
Sadistic Sacrement late game kicked its a blowout, early game it protects you from your Achilles heel
Riftsweeper If you know stuff if getting RFG'd, one of the least useful options but less intrusive
Jester's Cap obvious cap is obvious
Or you can use the stuff that gives you hexproof, but it doesnt cover all GY hate.
Other than those suggestions the only real "upgrade" you can do is more like an overhaul- and that is going to 5 colors to run child of alara. I just built the deck last week and Im loving it. I started out with Teneb in the deck, took him out for borb 2.0, but its likely Ill go back to Teneb. I definitely run less permanents, but its very much a similar playstyle.
Mimeoplasm Midrange, CHAINER CHAINER HIGH VOLTAGE
Rafiq of the Astral Slide, 67land.dec Child of Alara, Gisela <3 Sunforger
TRADE!?WUBRGMy Pauper Cube
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper, Phage the Uncastable, Azusa Lost but Stompy, Crosis Combo Breaker, All-In-Skullbriar, Rafiq/Jenara ETB army, Hazezon Swarm, Glissa Voltron!, Jarad Zombie Tribal, Zedruu Pillowfort, Reaper King Artifact Shenanagains
For sac outlets, I do have Phyrexian tower in there, but I quite honestly didn't realize there were so many more. I think I might take your advice and drop the Spire for the Grim Backwoods - it seems the most useful one next to Tower.
I'll have to see if I can find room for some of the grave hate. Most of my games are very casual, and exiling three cards from my opponents deck feels a bit dirty. LOL... I'll keep it in mind though. Some of the other options good - I've considered Riftsweeper before, so maybe I'll go that route. I don't want it to be TOO easy to win lol
Can you toss me a link to a list for your Child deck? I'd be interested to see what you've done with the concept.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=493036
I actually played a game last night where I had 2/3 of my library exiled. I still ended up winning. Creeping Renaissance floating the flashback mana, and in response sacing all my lands to Zuran Orb, then discarding 22 lands to seismic assault before recasting creeping Renaissance to do it again- so its possible to still win with having a ton of stuff exiled
Mimeoplasm Midrange, CHAINER CHAINER HIGH VOLTAGE
Rafiq of the Astral Slide, 67land.dec Child of Alara, Gisela <3 Sunforger
TRADE!?WUBRGMy Pauper Cube
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper, Phage the Uncastable, Azusa Lost but Stompy, Crosis Combo Breaker, All-In-Skullbriar, Rafiq/Jenara ETB army, Hazezon Swarm, Glissa Voltron!, Jarad Zombie Tribal, Zedruu Pillowfort, Reaper King Artifact Shenanagains
I just looked over your list, and it looks like a lot of fun
Just today, I had 47 tokens on the board after casting it a few times in one turn. Unluckily, my opponent recurred an Izzet Staticaster! Had to deal with that before I could go anywhere LOL.
I've also considered Zuran Orb, but I've never been able to sac enough to make it worthwhile. I suppose Creeping Renesance makes it well worthwhile though LOL.
Here's the updated list:
1 Teneb, the Harvester
Lands - Mana Setting (19)
2 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Murmuring Bosk
1 Command Tower
1 City of Brass
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
1 Wooded Foothills
Lands - Utility (26)
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Yavimaya Hollow
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Deserted Temple
1 Kor Haven
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 High Market
1 Grim Backwoods
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Homeward Path
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Maze of Ith
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Vesuva
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Barren Moor
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Orzhov Basilica
1 Selesnya Sanctuary
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Coalition Relic
1 Sol Ring
1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Exploration
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
Card Advantage (7)
1 Mind's Eye
1 Sylvan Library
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Horn of Greed
1 Scroll Rack
1 Hermit Druid
General Utility (2)
1 Constant Mists
1 Scavenging Ooze
Tutors (10)
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Entomb
1 Eladamri's Call
1 Chord of Calling
1 Vampiric Tutor
Removal (14)
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Terastodon
1 Aura Shards
1 Mortify
1 Putrefy
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Damnation
1 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Wrath of God
1 Martial Coup
1 Rout
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Angel of Despair
1 Reveillark
1 Eternal Witness
1 Karmic Guide
1 Genesis
1 Life from the Loam
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Animate Dead
1 Necromancy
1 Beacon of Unrest
Win Con (5)
1 Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
1 Vigor
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Rude Awakening
1 Worm Harvest
Cards Added:
Removed Cards
I'm liking these changes a lot, as they drive me to use my general more, and they allow for more graveyard shenanigans. So - loving the deck even more! I'd be happy to hear your comments on my changes, or any further improvements.
1 Teneb, the Harvester
Lands - Mana Setting (21)
2 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Command Tower
1 City of Brass
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Riftstone Portal
Lands - Utility (24)
1 Yavimaya Hollow
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Deserted Temple
1 Kor Haven
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 High Market
1 Grim Backwoods
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Homeward Path
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Maze of Ith
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Vesuva
1 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Barren Moor
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Orzhov Basilica
1 Selesnya Sanctuary
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Coalition Relic
1 Sol Ring
1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Exploration
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Burgoning
Card Advantage (7)
1 Mind's Eye
1 Sylvan Library
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Horn of Greed
1 Scroll Rack
1 Hermit Druid
General Utility (3)
1 Constant Mists
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Zuran Orb
Tutors (10)
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Entomb
1 Eladamri's Call
1 Chord of Calling
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Sylvan Tutor
Removal (13)
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Terastodon
1 Aura Shards
1 Mortify
1 Putrefy
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Damnation
1 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Wrath of God
1 Rout
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Angel of Despair
1 Reveillark
1 Eternal Witness
1 Karmic Guide
1 Genesis
1 Life from the Loam
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Animate Dead
1 Necromancy
1 Beacon of Unrest
1 Dread Return
Win Con (4)
1 Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Rude Awakening
1 Worm Harvest
Removed Cards:
Added Cards:
The deck is still working very well. Streamlined and efficient. As always I'm open to suggestions, different card choices, strategies, etc.
I'm going to image the deck soon. I'm very close to having the whole deck black border (the next step is foiling the lands LOL). So look for that in the next few days (hopefully the mail comes!)
I'll give these some testing and post back what I figure out.
If you can get your hands on a deed i'd run it over gaze, but gaze seems strong as well.
I love that demonic tutor btw.
Mimeoplasm Midrange, CHAINER CHAINER HIGH VOLTAGE
Rafiq of the Astral Slide, 67land.dec Child of Alara, Gisela <3 Sunforger
TRADE!?WUBRGMy Pauper Cube
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper, Phage the Uncastable, Azusa Lost but Stompy, Crosis Combo Breaker, All-In-Skullbriar, Rafiq/Jenara ETB army, Hazezon Swarm, Glissa Voltron!, Jarad Zombie Tribal, Zedruu Pillowfort, Reaper King Artifact Shenanagains
I do have a playset of Pernicious Deeds, but I think I'm going to find that my current board wipes are just better than Gaze. In my playgroup I don't often have the trouble of needing to kill much other than creatures. Though I might throw it in if I start seeing a good number of decks running non-creature interactions.
And... Yes... Damonischer Lehrmeister is just fantastic
Cheers!
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
What would you suggest for speeding it up? Most of the ramp spells I've tried have been lackluster. With how amazing cards like Skyshroud Claim are, they just don't feel like they do enough.
You are correct though, my mid to late game are very strong. Aggressive decks rip me apart if I can't find a board wipe quickly. But again, it wouldn't be as much fun if I won every game
I'm also testing Crop Rotation in place of Burgeoning. The latter was awkward and didn't trigger Horn of Greed, whereas rotation serves as a tutor for the exact land I need at the time.
Crop Rotation is very nice, as is Scapeshift. You may also want to take a look at Lotus Cobra and Stone-Seeder Hierophant. I assume Mana Crypt, Sylvan Primordial, and Natural Order are not in your list due to power level?
It's tough to win 50% of all your games on a good 4 man table. If you can win higher than that consistently you've got a real tight list, or you're a deft politician
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
I really like Stone-Seeder Hierophant, thanks for pointing that one out. I think I'll need to find a slot for it in there somewhere. Lotus Cobra on the other hand feels a bit less useful. I might try testing it out and see if it can give me some quick ramp when I have it. The problem is that once I get going, it doesn't do anything. Most of the cards in the deck at the moment are good at least mid through late game, if not early through late. None of them are particularly hideous draws late game. Cobra would be just... bad LOL
And you are correct, Crypt, Prymordial and Natural Order are just too good. I originally ran Primeval Titan in this deck, and my friends hated me for it. That got me thinking that I needed to make a deck that was lots of fun to play, very well balanced, and.... occasionally lost!
Thanks for the input. I'm definitely going to try out the Hierphant!
Ill have to post my fbb'd and foiled mimeoplasm deck at some point.
How did sun titan work out for you?
Mimeoplasm Midrange, CHAINER CHAINER HIGH VOLTAGE
Rafiq of the Astral Slide, 67land.dec Child of Alara, Gisela <3 Sunforger
TRADE!?WUBRGMy Pauper Cube
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper, Phage the Uncastable, Azusa Lost but Stompy, Crosis Combo Breaker, All-In-Skullbriar, Rafiq/Jenara ETB army, Hazezon Swarm, Glissa Voltron!, Jarad Zombie Tribal, Zedruu Pillowfort, Reaper King Artifact Shenanagains
I just put Stone-Seeder Hierophant in today for testing, so hopefully in a few days I'll have some results for that!
Did I miss any cards I needed to test LOL!
I've taken out two cards to put these in:
Here's the current deck list, it's running very smoothly. I want to do some more testing with Sun Titan, but I'm not sure what card to take out for it at the moment.
1 Teneb, the Harvester
Lands - Mana Setting (21)
2 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Command Tower
1 City of Brass
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Riftstone Portal
Lands - Utility (24)
1 Yavimaya Hollow
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Deserted Temple
1 Kor Haven
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 High Market
1 Grim Backwoods
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Homeward Path
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Maze of Ith
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Vesuva
1 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Barren Moor
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Orzhov Basilica
1 Selesnya Sanctuary
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Coalition Relic
1 Sol Ring
1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Exploration
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Stone-Seeder Hierophant
Card Advantage (7)
1 Mind's Eye
1 Sylvan Library
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Horn of Greed
1 Scroll Rack
1 Hermit Druid
General Utility (2)
1 Constant Mists
1 Scavenging Ooze
Tutors (11)
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Entomb
1 Eladamri's Call
1 Chord of Calling
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Sylvan Tutor
1 Crop Rotation
Removal (12)
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Terastodon
1 Aura Shards
1 Mortify
1 Putrefy
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Damnation
1 Wrath of God
1 Rout
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Angel of Despair
1 Reveillark
1 Eternal Witness
1 Karmic Guide
1 Genesis
1 Life from the Loam
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Animate Dead
1 Necromancy
1 Obzedat's Aid
1 Dread Return
1 Hag Hedge-Mage
Win Con (4)
1 Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Rude Awakening
1 Worm Harvest
Playing a 6 person game the other day, and its a major stailmate for a good 5 turns when I finally draw a Worldly Tutor with Rude Awakening in hand, and a million lands in play (along with a Gaea's Cradle.
At the end of the last person's turn, I tutor up [CARD]Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
[/CARD]. Then on my turn I float a million mana, cast Rude Awakening, the float mana off of Cradle. Finally I cast Kamahl. To which the Bant player respond with Rite of Replication on the Zombie deck's Noxious Ghoul... So all my lands die, and I have a summoning sick Kamahal with a million mana....
I think for a second, then look at my hand and realize I still have a Wrath of God. So thinking vengeance is sweet, I turn all of the Bant player's lands into creatures and then Wrath.
We both pretty much lose the game at that point LOL. Fun story, and he gets lots of props for whipping out my lands like that.
I collect pre-release Stone-Tongue Basilisk
I haven't edited the deck much lately because I haven't been able to play a lot. New job and all. But hopefully I'll get to play more soon!