Just a quick suggestion, but "off-color" fetches are technically allowed, and might let you make the manabase just a bit more consistent. You could remove Arcane Sanctum as it comes onto the battlefield tapped. Also Deserted Temple is another way to untap Tolarian Academy, and might be able to replace Volrath's Stronghold, which seems a bit weak in this deck.
I certainly wouldn't remove Darksteel Forge. It is a power-play in this deck all day long.
I would also consider Tawnos's Coffin.
I find Volrath's Stronghold to be fairly strong in this list myself; the recursion is never bad, and a sac outlet like Miren, The Moaning Well allows you a nice way to really abuse Sharuum.
Just a quick suggestion, but "off-color" fetches are technically allowed, and might let you make the manabase just a bit more consistent. You could remove Arcane Sanctum as it comes onto the battlefield tapped. Also Deserted Temple is another way to untap Tolarian Academy, and might be able to replace Volrath's Stronghold, which seems a bit weak in this deck.
Arcane Sanctum needs to be replaced; I only want to see it in my opening hand and cringe when I draw into it mid to late game. The deck is so mana hungry. Perhaps this slot can be used for Ancient Tomb or Deserted Temple.
After typing the decklist, Volrath's Stronghold does appear to be weak since it only targets an additional four creatures over Academy Ruins. For tonight's tournament, the Stronghold was replaced by Mishra's Workshop.
I certainly wouldn't remove Darksteel Forge. It is a power-play in this deck all day long.
I would also consider Tawnos's Coffin.
I find Volrath's Stronghold to be fairly strong in this list myself; the recursion is never bad, and a sac outlet like Miren, The Moaning Well allows you a nice way to really abuse Sharuum.
--->DJ
Took your advice and left the Darksteel Forge in the decklist.
As previously stated, I removed the Stronghold for the Workshop; which rocked in the opening hand!
I used to have Miren, the Moaning Well, but it kept getting LD by the Legend Rule. I switched to High Market; although it does not gain me as much life, I do not have to keep an additional 3 open to use the outlet in a mana hungry deck.
Consider Artificer's Intuition, which fetches Sol Ring, Top, and Pithing Needle. If you include AI Voyager Staff should find a way in both to recur Sharuum as a tutorable Momentary Blink or simply as an infinite escape chute should Sharuum be threatened.
I've never found Sanctum Gargoyle that helpful in this deck, as you usually have the mana to cast sharuum and one up the gargoyle to put an artifact straight into play.
Definately keep Darksteel Forge in. I also run a Platinum Angel in mine. Forge+Angel isn't a guaranteed failsafe, but it's close.
Copy Artifact is needed in here. Sculpting Steel for 2 mana is obvioiusly useful. It's odd that it doesn't count as an artifact BEFORE it hits play, but you usually don't care.
Also, Decree of Pain is needed in every deck sporting black.
I think Hinder should come out in favor of Open the Vaults, the new Replenish on crack. Sure it's for everyone, but can you think of anyone else that will benefit more than you? Cards like Gifts Ungiven (missing from your lineup), Thirst for Knowledge, and Fact or Fiction are all powerhouses that also just happen to fill your GY with goodies all game.
Last but not least, where is your:
Vesuva
Felwar Stone
Bribery
Aquire
Beacon of Unrest
Not too sure where to make cuts.
Last but not least, let's all take a moment of silence for the loss of Tinker. T_T
Copy Artifact is needed in here. Sculpting Steel for 2 mana is obvioiusly useful. It's odd that it doesn't count as an artifact BEFORE it hits play, but you usually don't care.
Also, Decree of Pain is needed in every deck sporting black.
I think Hinder should come out in favor of Open the Vaults, the new Replenish on crack. Sure it's for everyone, but can you think of anyone else that will benefit more than you? Cards like Gifts Ungiven (missing from your lineup), Thirst for Knowledge, and Fact or Fiction are all powerhouses that also just happen to fill your GY with goodies all game.
Last but not least, where is your:
Vesuva
Felwar Stone
Bribery
Aquire
Beacon of Unrest
Not too sure where to make cuts.
Last but not least, let's all take a moment of silence for the loss of Tinker. T_T
I've never found Sanctum Gargoyle that helpful in this deck, as you usually have the mana to cast sharuum and one up the gargoyle to put an artifact straight into play.
I'm starting to agree here as well...slowly, but surely.
Definately keep Darksteel Forge in. I also run a Platinum Angel in mine. Forge+Angel isn't a guaranteed failsafe, but it's close.
Angel I find to be problematic all around. It tends to be one of those cards that just screams "Target Me!" when it hits. You don't need to even be a threat or be near 0 life, and people will jump on it like they get paid to do so. Coupled with the fact that it's a terrible threat or blocker as well in this format, and I'd rather run anything else in that slot.
Masamune, I totally hate to do this, but I disagree with *almost* everything you said here. No offense at all, but I'll I'll explain:
Quote from Masamune »
Copy Artifact is needed in here. Sculpting Steel for 2 mana is obvioiusly useful. It's odd that it doesn't count as an artifact BEFORE it hits play, but you usually don't care.
While I do agree that CA isn't bad if you can find a slot for it, you absolutely do care that it isn't an artifact pre-casting. You can't recur it, and a bunch of your tutors don't find it as a result either, meaning that if you don't draw it, you have to waste Demonic/Vampiric for it. And then, you have tons of better options.
Quote from Masamune »
Also, Decree of Pain is needed in every deck sporting black.
I don't run it here. Decree is a massive mana cost for this deck to swallow, and by the time you can cast it, you already will be able to do better things with Sharuum. While the draw is nice, I'd rather have something cheaper and recurrable like O-stone.
Quote from Masamune »
I think Hinder should come out in favor of Open the Vaults, the new Replenish on crack. Sure it's for everyone, but can you think of anyone else that will benefit more than you?
Now THIS I can get down with.
Quote from Masamune »
Cards like Gifts Ungiven (missing from your lineup)
Unfortunately for good reason...
Quote from Masamune »
Thirst for Knowledge, and Fact or Fiction are all powerhouses that also just happen to fill your GY with goodies all game.
...but these are right on.
Quote from Masamune »
Last but not least, where is your:
Vesuva
Seems good.
Quote from Masamune »
Felwar Stone
Not so much. Too easy to miss colors, and Relic and Ingot do a better job for a marginal cost increase.
Quote from Masamune »
Bribery
Maybe. I go back and forth on this. Ultimately, I'd rather run an artifact-based threat in this slot, like Jester's Cap or something...
Quote from Masamune »
Aquire
Again, too hit or miss IMO. The slot could be something way better.
Quote from Masamune »
Beacon of Unrest
This can be good. I'm running one at the moment, in fact.
DJ, what kind of generals/decks are you up against? Bribery and Acquire are both amazing ever time I've cast them, and I try to fit them in every deck I play with that has blue. When have they been a miss for you?
DJ, what kind of generals/decks are you up against? Bribery and Acquire are both amazing ever time I've cast them, and I try to fit them in every deck I play with that has blue. When have they been a miss for you?
The meta I usually find myself playing in is a bit all over the place. Well-established archetypes mixed in with off the wall choices. Some competetive (the Jhoira/Arcum/Rofellos/Rafiq crowd), some not as much.
For that reason, I find that Bribery, while amazing, just isn't as good as something that can advance the Sharuum gameplan. I can't think of many creatures that I would rather pull out of an opponents' deck that would be better than another tutor to get me Intuition into a win, for example. Sharuum works best when it adheres to its' gameplan, not as a 'goodstuff'-type deck.
Which is why Acquire seems even worse to me. I can think of multiple games recently where Acquire = Sol Ring or Coalition Relic. I'm pretty sure that I can come up with something far superior for five mana.
The meta I usually find myself playing in is a bit all over the place. Well-established archetypes mixed in with off the wall choices. Some competetive (the Jhoira/Arcum/Rofellos/Rafiq crowd), some not as much.
For that reason, I find that Bribery, while amazing, just isn't as good as something that can advance the Sharuum gameplan. I can't think of many creatures that I would rather pull out of an opponents' deck that would be better than another tutor to get me Intuition into a win, for example. Sharuum works best when it adheres to its' gameplan, not as a 'goodstuff'-type deck.
Which is why Acquire seems even worse to me. I can think of multiple games recently where Acquire = Sol Ring or Coalition Relic. I'm pretty sure that I can come up with something far superior for five mana.
--->DJ
Yeah, you're probably right, and I suppose that playing Sharuum means you aren't facing any other Sharuum decks. =) I've played against Sharuum a bit recently, and Bribery and Acquire often equals Sundering Titan or Magister Sphinx, which are both pretty game swinging.
Yeah, you're probably right, and I suppose that playing Sharuum means you aren't facing any other Sharuum decks. =) I've played against Sharuum a bit recently, and Bribery and Acquire often equals Sundering Titan or Magister Sphinx, which are both pretty game swinging.
That would certainly make a huge difference in playability in both those cards, but even then, think about it- you're essentially playing cards that allow you to do what your deck already is supposed to do, but probably more expensively and certainly with a higher degree of difficulty. I would rather play a card that will allow me to play out my own Titan or Sphinx every time, regardless of what general I am facing.
--->DJ
--->Again, mileage may vary when taking into account the level of play. If I was aiming for a group game on the fun side, I'd go for the less competetive, more interesting option every time.
I find that Bribery, while amazing, just isn't as good as something that can advance the Sharuum gameplan. I can't think of many creatures that I would rather pull out of an opponents' deck that would be better than another tutor to get me Intuition into a win, for example. Sharuum works best when it adheres to its' gameplan, not as a 'goodstuff'-type deck.
Which is why Acquire seems even worse to me. I can think of multiple games recently where Acquire = Sol Ring or Coalition Relic. I'm pretty sure that I can come up with something far superior for five mana.
This.
Acquire and Bribery are excellent against Sharuum decks; however, Sharuum decks playing these spells can whiff compared to tutoring up a bomb.
Since Sharuum has hit critical mass, I've been tinkering (no pun intended) with the cards and the strategy lately, in an effort to try to come up with some new options for the deck. I wanted to toss out a few things that I've been playing with lately that have been really positive:
Frantic Search is obviously amazing. Study has proven to be nearly as good. It takes a hit not being instant-speed, but how often does this deck have a solid turn-one play? You're looking at Vamp, Enlightened, Sol Ring, and Seal in your list. This is a fantastic addition; even later on, it's so cheap that it never seems dead.
A tad on the costly side of things, but it still slots in below Sharuum, making it valid. A buyback Demonic Tutor seems good, and in this case the price is offset because the discard helps the list, instead of hurting it. I've been playing this in the Liliana Vess slot, and so far I really enjoy it.
I like the list a lot, and am working a similar build myself. The creature-light decks seem much nicer than the ones crowded with affinity junk. I had a few questions though-
No Sphinx of the Steel Wind? Yes he's expensive, but it can make an excellent target for Sharuum and can turn a game pretty quickly.
Jester's Cap-I like the tech and don't disagree with the choice, I'm just curious what kinds of things you pull with it. I might not be smart enough for this card
Mana Crypt-Awesome acceleration, but have you found the damage to be a problem? Since EDH can be a slow format I'm a little wary of effects like this.
Memnarch-I always cringe when I see this card, it seems very expensive to make useful. Have you found it to be a useful addition? This is probably what I would consider dropping for Sphinx of the Steel Wind.
Oblivion Ring-Planeswalker removal is always nice if someone lays down that Nicol Bolas. Unfortunately, this can leave you in a bad spot if someone plays a board sweeper, maybe a more permanent removal spell would be nicer.
Rhystic Study-Seems great in theory, has it performed well for you?
Phyrexian Arena-Life loss issue again; I realize it's a small price to pay for extra cards, but depending on your playgroup this might put you at a disadvantage.
Crucible of Worlds-This is very interesting, and could make or break a game where land destruction is an issue, but do you have any other reasons for its inclusion here?
Also, have you considered Compulsion? (I'd autocard, but this is my first post and I still have to look up the tags for it-eek!) If you find yourself with extra mana at end of turn it can be very nice, both to sift through cards and to drop artifacts in the graveyard for Sharuum.
Like I said, love the deck and thanks for taking the time to look respond
Since Sharuum has hit critical mass, I've been tinkering (no pun intended) with the cards and the strategy lately, in an effort to try to come up with some new options for the deck. I wanted to toss out a few things that I've been playing with lately that have been really positive:
Frantic Search is obviously amazing. Study has proven to be nearly as good. It takes a hit not being instant-speed, but how often does this deck have a solid turn-one play? You're looking at Vamp, Enlightened, Sol Ring, and Seal in your list. This is a fantastic addition; even later on, it's so cheap that it never seems dead.
A tad on the costly side of things, but it still slots in below Sharuum, making it valid. A buyback Demonic Tutor seems good, and in this case the price is offset because the discard helps the list, instead of hurting it. I've been playing this in the Liliana Vess slot, and so far I really enjoy it.
--->DJ
Interesting choices; really looking to take advantage of the outlet to grave. I would be more likely to try out the Careful Study because it a cheaper draw and outlet. The sorcery at 5 kind of worries me; although you did mention the tutor is taking your Vess slot.
I am interested in hearing updates after more EDH games you play involving where these cards shined, as well as, situations where these cards did not pull their weight.
I like the list a lot, and am working a similar build myself. The creature-light decks seem much nicer than the ones crowded with affinity junk. I had a few questions though-
No Sphinx of the Steel Wind? Yes he's expensive, but it can make an excellent target for Sharuum and can turn a game pretty quickly.
The problem, IMHO, with SotSW is the lack of haste to take advantage of any of its abilities. The flying, first strike, and vigilance is nice... but at 8 mana there are more game changing bombs available. As a target for Sharuum from the graveyard, again nice but if I re-animate a creature it would probably be Magister Sphinx or Sundering Titan. Both creatures give an effect right away; passing the turn and waiting for a benefit seems like asking too much in a multi-player EDH game.
If the playgroup or tourney setting was more combat orientated or light on mass/spot removal, then I would run Sphinx of the Steel Wind. However in my area, combo and removal are heavily played; so I need cards with immediate effect.
Jester's Cap-I like the tech and don't disagree with the choice, I'm just curious what kinds of things you pull with it. I might not be smart enough for this card
The Jester's Cap is to disrupt a) the combo player, and b) the player, I believe, is packing the most anti-Sharuum cards. If I know/suspect someone is running combo, then I use Cap to take pieces of the combo. The other instance, I use cap on the player that may have the most hate cards versus my deck. For instance, I may Cap the Zur player because I suspect Energy Flux will be fetched out (while also Cap'ing out the Armageddon and Tormod's Crypt, etc.).
Mana Crypt-Awesome acceleration, but have you found the damage to be a problem? Since EDH can be a slow format I'm a little wary of effects like this.
Unfortunately, the EDH tourney is really fast paced here because so many people run combo as primary win conditions. Fortunately, I have not run into a problem with self-inflicted damage.
EDH games where everyone agrees to play noncombo decks, I play Hazezon Tamar. Casting big, ridiculous spells and turning creatures sideways to attack is the most fun, IMHO.
Memnarch-I always cringe when I see this card, it seems very expensive to make useful. Have you found it to be a useful addition? This is probably what I would consider dropping for Sphinx of the Steel Wind.
I agree, it is not a staple to the deck. Memnarch could be replaced; only shines when you mana accel to steal permanents as a pseudo removal.
Oblivion Ring-Planeswalker removal is always nice if someone lays down that Nicol Bolas. Unfortunately, this can leave you in a bad spot if someone plays a board sweeper, maybe a more permanent removal spell would be nicer.
Actually, I have been going back and forth with Faith's Fetters and Oblivion Ring. Some form of life gain vs removal from the game. I went with the lower CC. I already have Vindicate, what do you suggest as a permanent removal spell (especially for Plaineswalkers)?
In long, Rhystic Study does its work in one of two ways: 1) Draws you cards because other players do not want to trade their tempo (mostly seen with players racing eachother to combo), or 2) draws nothing but creates a slower environment since opponents have to tap more and play less spells.
Phyrexian Arena-Life loss issue again; I realize it's a small price to pay for extra cards, but depending on your playgroup this might put you at a disadvantage.
Making the decklist, I focused on tutoring, some card draw and some mana accel; basically card advantage and having the mana to do something with the card advantage.
If life loss becomes an issue, I would swap the O-Ring for Faith's Fetters and swap Memnarch for Filigree Angel because the Angel gives the life up front without waiting like the Sphinx of the Steel Wind.
Crucible of Worlds-This is very interesting, and could make or break a game where land destruction is an issue, but do you have any other reasons for its inclusion here?
Correct. There are games where you can just lock an opponent out. For example turn one, Mishra's Workshop and play cast Crucible of Worlds. Turn two, Strip Mine and repeat until opponent misses land drops for you to play your spells.
The other reason for inclusion is to replay the bomb lands when they are LD'ed; especially because of the Legend Rule for Academy Ruins, Tolarian Academy, and Volrath's Stronghold are all pretty popular in decks.
Also, have you considered Compulsion? (I'd autocard, but this is my first post and I still have to look up the tags for it-eek!) If you find yourself with extra mana at end of turn it can be very nice, both to sift through cards and to drop artifacts in the graveyard for Sharuum.
Like I said, love the deck and thanks for taking the time to look respond
Compulsion looks like it would be a strong inclusion; the longer the games goes Compulsion would get stronger with more mana to cycle cards, tutor to the top and cycle, etc.
The more I think about Compulsion, the more I like it... card draw and outlet. I will have to give it a try! Thanks!
Another card for feedback is Palinchron. Tolarian Academy with five artifact in play and Palinchron can set up a mana-loop. Throw Compulsion or Staff of Domination into it, I can draw/pitch my deck to set up the win.
Has anyone tried/used these cards? Worth it or junk?
Interesting choices; really looking to take advantage of the outlet to grave. I would be more likely to try out the Careful Study because it a cheaper draw and outlet. The sorcery at 5 kind of worries me; although you did mention the tutor is taking your Vess slot.
I am interested in hearing updates after more EDH games you play involving where these cards shined, as well as, situations where these cards did not pull their weight.
So far, Careful Study is certainly proving to be a worthy inclusion. It's one of the better set-up cards in the deck at the moment; if it shows up in your opener, it essentially stretches your kept grip by two cards, which is just amazing. Late game, it doesn't really hurt you due to the cost; even a whiff doesn't really hurt when it only costs U. Actually, it hasn't even hurt me yet as a top-deck; the two occasions that I have come across pulling it from the top resulted in immediately dumping Magister Sphinx into the yard for a same-turn Sharuum activation, and the other gave me Oblivion Stone the following turn, where waiting the extra turn for the natural draw would have lost me the game. It's a keeper for me so far.
DC is a bit trickier. As a rule, I'm not crazy about paying more than 3-CMC for a tutor effect; I am convinced this is better than Liliana in this build, however. For five mana, I'm getting a card in-hand. While I may get a second activation from Vess if she survives, I am *far* more likely to get a second Collusion off from my hand. The buyback cost is just sheer bonus; I've cast it three times and paid:
The problem, IMHO, with SotSW is the lack of haste to take advantage of any of its abilities. The flying, first strike, and vigilance is nice... but at 8 mana there are more game changing bombs available. As a target for Sharuum from the graveyard, again nice but if I re-animate a creature it would probably be Magister Sphinx or Sundering Titan. Both creatures give an effect right away; passing the turn and waiting for a benefit seems like asking too much in a multi-player EDH game.
If the playgroup or tourney setting was more combat orientated or light on mass/spot removal, then I would run Sphinx of the Steel Wind. However in my area, combo and removal are heavily played; so I need cards with immediate effect.
I run SotSW in casual games. (I usually pull Titan, Sphinx, and Extractor Demon to make the deck less of a combo-killer and more of an aggro build) Slotted next to Inkwell Leviathan, it seems to work pretty well. Great Sculpting Steel target in those games too. In competetive matches, though, it seems to be a wasted slot, simply because there are creatures that win faster, and creatures that gain life better. I'd say it depends on your environment.
The Jester's Cap is to disrupt a) the combo player, and b) the player, I believe, is packing the most anti-Sharuum cards. If I know/suspect someone is running combo, then I use Cap to take pieces of the combo. The other instance, I use cap on the player that may have the most hate cards versus my deck. For instance, I may Cap the Zur player because I suspect Energy Flux will be fetched out (while also Cap'ing out the Armageddon and Tormod's Crypt, etc.).
Agreed 100%. I play Cap for the same reasons, and have never regretted the include.
In long, Rhystic Study does its work in one of two ways: 1) Draws you cards because other players do not want to trade their tempo (mostly seen with players racing eachother to combo), or 2) draws nothing but creates a slower environment since opponents have to tap more and play less spells.
It's very important to pay attention to what RS does subliminally when quantifying the inclusion. The fact that it becomes a pseudo-Sphere Of Resistance is what makes it so strong; it follows the EDH mantra of getting a return of card quality or advantage on every investment you make. This is an auto-include for me as well.
Correct. There are games where you can just lock an opponent out. For example turn one, Mishra's Workshop and play cast Crucible of Worlds. Turn two, Strip Mine and repeat until opponent misses land drops for you to play your spells.
The other reason for inclusion is to replay the bomb lands when they are LD'ed; especially because of the Legend Rule for Academy Ruins, Tolarian Academy, and Volrath's Stronghold are all pretty popular in decks.
It is also worth noting that if Sharuum has a weak link, it tends to be in the land department. Crucible is worth inclusion if for no other reason than it lets you climb back out of land-destruction blowouts.
Compulsion looks like it would be a strong inclusion; the longer the games goes Compulsion would get stronger with more mana to cycle cards, tutor to the top and cycle, etc.
Compulsion is like the twin of Artificer's Intuition; like Collusion above, the drawback is a bonus in this deck, and it combos well with Crucible too. I've been using this card for a while, and it rarely dissapoints.
Another card for feedback is Palinchron. Tolarian Academy with five artifact in play and Palinchron can set up a mana-loop. Throw Compulsion or Staff of Domination into it, I can draw/pitch my deck to set up the win.
Has anyone tried/used these cards? Worth it or junk?
I actually pulled Staff from my build. Since the deck has better ways to just win, I found that I'd nearly rather have anything pop up instead of it. If you run some sort of infinite mana combo, it pulls weight, but otherwise, I find it to draw a ton of hate when it hits.
So to that end, Palinchron might be decent as an alternate win-con that can also chump-block or beat, but it really needs Academy and Staff both to be in play to be really worth it. And at that point, you might be better off running an easier to tutor (read: artifact) mana combo like Basalt/Rings or something.
So far, Careful Study is certainly proving to be a worthy inclusion. It's one of the better set-up cards in the deck at the moment; if it shows up in your opener, it essentially stretches your kept grip by two cards, which is just amazing. Late game, it doesn't really hurt you due to the cost; even a whiff doesn't really hurt when it only costs U.
Even though Careful Study is a sorcery, I like the low CC. Strong reasoning for inclusion; stretching the opening hand and not hurting CC-wise with a top deck. I will have to consider my meta and decide where I can fit Study in the deck.
DC is a bit trickier. As a rule, I'm not crazy about paying more than 3-CMC for a tutor effect; I am convinced this is better than Liliana in this build, however. For five mana, I'm getting a card in-hand. While I may get a second activation from Vess if she survives, I am *far* more likely to get a second Collusion off from my hand.
Still worried about the Collusion in this slot because of the mana requirement of 2+ uses versus the mana requirement of 2+ uses from Vess. I do agree with you that 1) tutor to the hand and 2) the buyback outlet makes the Collusion functionally better than Vess.
I run SotSW in casual games. (I usually pull Titan, Sphinx, and Extractor Demon to make the deck less of a combo-killer and more of an aggro build) Slotted next to Inkwell Leviathan, it seems to work pretty well. Great Sculpting Steel target in those games too. In competetive matches, though, it seems to be a wasted slot, simply because there are creatures that win faster, and creatures that gain life better. I'd say it depends on your environment.
Agreed 100%. I play Cap for the same reasons, and have never regretted the include.
It's very important to pay attention to what RS does subliminally when quantifying the inclusion. The fact that it becomes a pseudo-Sphere Of Resistance is what makes it so strong; it follows the EDH mantra of getting a return of card quality or advantage on every investment you make. This is an auto-include for me as well.
Yes. This.
DJ was able to 100% more clearly state my intended post on RS regarding slowing down the game with an opponent only "pseudo-Sphere of Resistance."
I actually pulled Staff from my build. Since the deck has better ways to just win, I found that I'd nearly rather have anything pop up instead of it. If you run some sort of infinite mana combo, it pulls weight, but otherwise, I find it to draw a ton of hate when it hits.
So to that end, Palinchron might be decent as an alternate win-con that can also chump-block or beat, but it really needs Academy and Staff both to be in play to be really worth it. And at that point, you might be better off running an easier to tutor (read: artifact) mana combo like Basalt/Rings or something.
--->DJ
Thanks for the input! I won't bother stuffing either card into the deck...
DJ Catchem, would up mind posting your build? I saw one you put up in another Sharuum thread but it doesn't look as recent.
Few more questions/suggestions:
Graveyard removal-Obviously playgroup dependent, but does Relic of Progenitus or Feldon's Cane have a place in here?
Myr Incubator-Too slow/risky? Maybe I just like the novelty.
Esper Charm-Have you found this useful enough? I like the utility a lot, just seems a bit underwhelming. Then again, instant speed draw is good.
Board Sweepers-No desire for anymore than the one tutorable Damnation?
Equipment-Not too much that would be helpful, but Lightning Graves is usually pretty solid to protect your general (or SotSW, if you play him) and can keep Sharuum's cost from becoming prohibitive.
Etherium Sculptor-Can drastically speed up a hand, are you facing too many board sweepers though?
Mind Stone-Not amazing by any stretch, but the ability to trade for a card late game can be helpful.
Memory Plunder-Surprisingly effective and instant speed. Wrath, counters, Fact or Fiction, tutors and other swingy spells that are commonly played give this card a built in toolbox.
Also, Voyager Staff was listed before and seems pretty useful as a utility card, plus it can make Sharuum very, very annoying.
I'd be interested in seeing the current list too, I've been building my own Sharruum deck after both yours and the comments I've seen from DJ Catchem, so the more information the better
Just had another thought-Proteus Staff lets you shuffle up anyone's general up or swap a used Trinket Mage/Mulldrifter for one of your bigger creatures, and with few creatures in the deck shouldn't hit much chaff.
I used to have more counterspells in the decklist, however I do not want to police the whole EDH table. I would rather play more bombs in multiplayer.
i also play Sharuum, and i originally didn't have counterspells mainly cuz i hate them, and i wanted to see if i could win without them. now i have 6-7 in my deck not to "police" the game. counterspells have 2 purposes in my deck. 1) to prevent my opponent from resolving they're key cards/combos and 2) to prevent my opponent from preventing me from resolving my key cards/combos.
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:symbr:Olivia Voldaren:rakdos: Almost mono black Control
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Mycosynth Lattice and Mycosynth Golem as well as Sanctum Gargoyle and Loenin Abunas If you can get out both the mycosynth cards and a Leonin, you rape. Also the Sanctuary Gargoyle is meant to be pulled out of graveyard with Sharuum. Then you use master transmuter to put sanctuary gargoyle into your hand then play a bomb. Ive got an edh artifact deck that has about 12 cards that are part of combos, they are crap on their own but are in for lols. In casual play it rapes everything sept a mono-blue control.
MBones: If you look through the list, several potential combos have been skipped beacuse the cards don't do enough on their own. By sticking to a single, more effective one such as Disciple/SS/Sharuum you're able to focus the deck quite a bit more without taking a hit in card quality.
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Shot at 2012-07-05
00 Sharuum the Hegemon
Artifact
01 Azorius Signet
02 Chrome Mox
03 Dimir Signet
04 Grim Monolith
05 Lotus Bloom
06 Lotus Petal
07 Mana Crypt
08 Mana Vault
09 Mox Diamond
10 Mox Opal
11 Orzhov Signet
12 Sol Ring
13 Talisman of Dominance
14 Talisman of Progress
15 Crucible of Worlds
16 Memory Jar
17 Pithing Needle
18 Scroll Rack
19 Sculpting Steel
20 Sensei's Divining Top
21 Sword of the Meek
22 Thopter Foundry
23 Time Sieve
Creature
24 Grand Abolisher
25 Phyrexian Metamorph
26 Snapcaster Mage
27 Trinket Mage
28 Dark Confidant
29 Disciple of the Vault
Enchantment
30 Necropotence
Instant
31 Enlightened Tutor
32 Silence
33 Swords to Plowshares
34 Brainstorm
35 Delay
36 Fact or Fiction
37 Forbidden Alchemy
38 Force of Will
39 Frantic Search
40 Impulse
41 Intuition
42 Mana Drain
43 Mystical Tutor
44 Negate
45 Pact of Negation
46 Remand
47 Thirst for Knowledge
48 Ad Nauseam
49 Dark Ritual
50 Necrologia
51 Tainted Pact
52 Vampiric Tutor
53 Lim-Dûl's Vault
54 Tezzeret the Seeker
Sorcery
55 Ponder
56 Preordain
57 Sleight of Hand
58 Transmute Artifact
59 Windfall
60 Bitter Ordeal
61 Demonic Tutor
62 Grim Tutor
63 Imperial Seal
64 Yawgmoth's Will
65 Vindicate
Land
66 Plains
67 Island
68 Swamp
69 Snow-Covered Plains
70 Snow-Covered Island
71 Snow-Covered Swamp
72 Academy Ruins
73 Adarkar Wastes
74 Ancient Den
75 Ancient Tomb
76 Cavern of Souls
77 Caves of Koilos
78 City of Brass
79 Command Tower
80 Fetid Heath
81 Flooded Strand
82 Forbidden Orchard
83 Glimmervoid
84 Godless Shrine
85 Hallowed Fountain
86 Marsh Flats
87 Mishra's Workshop
88 Mystic Gate
89 Polluted Delta
90 Scrubland
91 Seat of the Synod
92 Strip Mine
93 Sunken Ruins
94 Tundra
95 Underground River
96 Underground Sea
97 Vault of Whispers
98 Wasteland
99 Watery Grave
Combo
twitter.com/bccarlso
I would also consider Tawnos's Coffin.
I find Volrath's Stronghold to be fairly strong in this list myself; the recursion is never bad, and a sac outlet like Miren, The Moaning Well allows you a nice way to really abuse Sharuum.
--->DJ
Arcane Sanctum needs to be replaced; I only want to see it in my opening hand and cringe when I draw into it mid to late game. The deck is so mana hungry. Perhaps this slot can be used for Ancient Tomb or Deserted Temple.
After typing the decklist, Volrath's Stronghold does appear to be weak since it only targets an additional four creatures over Academy Ruins. For tonight's tournament, the Stronghold was replaced by Mishra's Workshop.
Took your advice and left the Darksteel Forge in the decklist.
As previously stated, I removed the Stronghold for the Workshop; which rocked in the opening hand!
I used to have Miren, the Moaning Well, but it kept getting LD by the Legend Rule. I switched to High Market; although it does not gain me as much life, I do not have to keep an additional 3 open to use the outlet in a mana hungry deck.
The tournaments are multiplayer pods; tonights tournament had a low turnout of 10 EDH players, so two pods of five.
I used to have more counterspells in the decklist, however I do not want to police the whole EDH table. I would rather play more bombs in multiplayer.
-----
EDH 5-Man Pod, starting with my seat: Sharuum, Grand Arbiter, Reaper King, Vendilion Clique, Teysa.
I've never found Sanctum Gargoyle that helpful in this deck, as you usually have the mana to cast sharuum and one up the gargoyle to put an artifact straight into play.
Definately keep Darksteel Forge in. I also run a Platinum Angel in mine. Forge+Angel isn't a guaranteed failsafe, but it's close.
Also, Decree of Pain is needed in every deck sporting black.
I think Hinder should come out in favor of Open the Vaults, the new Replenish on crack. Sure it's for everyone, but can you think of anyone else that will benefit more than you? Cards like Gifts Ungiven (missing from your lineup), Thirst for Knowledge, and Fact or Fiction are all powerhouses that also just happen to fill your GY with goodies all game.
Last but not least, where is your:
Vesuva
Felwar Stone
Bribery
Aquire
Beacon of Unrest
Not too sure where to make cuts.
Last but not least, let's all take a moment of silence for the loss of Tinker. T_T
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We've lost Gifts Ungiven as of June 30th as well.
As well as dumps juicy Sharuum targets into your yard as you go. This card is an MVP.
I'm starting to agree here as well...slowly, but surely.
Angel I find to be problematic all around. It tends to be one of those cards that just screams "Target Me!" when it hits. You don't need to even be a threat or be near 0 life, and people will jump on it like they get paid to do so. Coupled with the fact that it's a terrible threat or blocker as well in this format, and I'd rather run anything else in that slot.
Masamune, I totally hate to do this, but I disagree with *almost* everything you said here. No offense at all, but I'll I'll explain:
While I do agree that CA isn't bad if you can find a slot for it, you absolutely do care that it isn't an artifact pre-casting. You can't recur it, and a bunch of your tutors don't find it as a result either, meaning that if you don't draw it, you have to waste Demonic/Vampiric for it. And then, you have tons of better options.
I don't run it here. Decree is a massive mana cost for this deck to swallow, and by the time you can cast it, you already will be able to do better things with Sharuum. While the draw is nice, I'd rather have something cheaper and recurrable like O-stone.
Now THIS I can get down with.
Unfortunately for good reason...
...but these are right on.
Seems good.
Not so much. Too easy to miss colors, and Relic and Ingot do a better job for a marginal cost increase.
Maybe. I go back and forth on this. Ultimately, I'd rather run an artifact-based threat in this slot, like Jester's Cap or something...
Again, too hit or miss IMO. The slot could be something way better.
This can be good. I'm running one at the moment, in fact.
--->DJ
twitter.com/bccarlso
The meta I usually find myself playing in is a bit all over the place. Well-established archetypes mixed in with off the wall choices. Some competetive (the Jhoira/Arcum/Rofellos/Rafiq crowd), some not as much.
For that reason, I find that Bribery, while amazing, just isn't as good as something that can advance the Sharuum gameplan. I can't think of many creatures that I would rather pull out of an opponents' deck that would be better than another tutor to get me Intuition into a win, for example. Sharuum works best when it adheres to its' gameplan, not as a 'goodstuff'-type deck.
Which is why Acquire seems even worse to me. I can think of multiple games recently where Acquire = Sol Ring or Coalition Relic. I'm pretty sure that I can come up with something far superior for five mana.
--->DJ
Yeah, you're probably right, and I suppose that playing Sharuum means you aren't facing any other Sharuum decks. =) I've played against Sharuum a bit recently, and Bribery and Acquire often equals Sundering Titan or Magister Sphinx, which are both pretty game swinging.
twitter.com/bccarlso
That would certainly make a huge difference in playability in both those cards, but even then, think about it- you're essentially playing cards that allow you to do what your deck already is supposed to do, but probably more expensively and certainly with a higher degree of difficulty. I would rather play a card that will allow me to play out my own Titan or Sphinx every time, regardless of what general I am facing.
--->DJ
--->Again, mileage may vary when taking into account the level of play. If I was aiming for a group game on the fun side, I'd go for the less competetive, more interesting option every time.
This.
Acquire and Bribery are excellent against Sharuum decks; however, Sharuum decks playing these spells can whiff compared to tutoring up a bomb.
Careful Study
Frantic Search is obviously amazing. Study has proven to be nearly as good. It takes a hit not being instant-speed, but how often does this deck have a solid turn-one play? You're looking at Vamp, Enlightened, Sol Ring, and Seal in your list. This is a fantastic addition; even later on, it's so cheap that it never seems dead.
Demonic Collusion
A tad on the costly side of things, but it still slots in below Sharuum, making it valid. A buyback Demonic Tutor seems good, and in this case the price is offset because the discard helps the list, instead of hurting it. I've been playing this in the Liliana Vess slot, and so far I really enjoy it.
--->DJ
No Sphinx of the Steel Wind? Yes he's expensive, but it can make an excellent target for Sharuum and can turn a game pretty quickly.
Jester's Cap-I like the tech and don't disagree with the choice, I'm just curious what kinds of things you pull with it. I might not be smart enough for this card
Mana Crypt-Awesome acceleration, but have you found the damage to be a problem? Since EDH can be a slow format I'm a little wary of effects like this.
Memnarch-I always cringe when I see this card, it seems very expensive to make useful. Have you found it to be a useful addition? This is probably what I would consider dropping for Sphinx of the Steel Wind.
Oblivion Ring-Planeswalker removal is always nice if someone lays down that Nicol Bolas. Unfortunately, this can leave you in a bad spot if someone plays a board sweeper, maybe a more permanent removal spell would be nicer.
Rhystic Study-Seems great in theory, has it performed well for you?
Phyrexian Arena-Life loss issue again; I realize it's a small price to pay for extra cards, but depending on your playgroup this might put you at a disadvantage.
Crucible of Worlds-This is very interesting, and could make or break a game where land destruction is an issue, but do you have any other reasons for its inclusion here?
Also, have you considered Compulsion? (I'd autocard, but this is my first post and I still have to look up the tags for it-eek!) If you find yourself with extra mana at end of turn it can be very nice, both to sift through cards and to drop artifacts in the graveyard for Sharuum.
Like I said, love the deck and thanks for taking the time to look respond
Interesting choices; really looking to take advantage of the outlet to grave. I would be more likely to try out the Careful Study because it a cheaper draw and outlet. The sorcery at 5 kind of worries me; although you did mention the tutor is taking your Vess slot.
I am interested in hearing updates after more EDH games you play involving where these cards shined, as well as, situations where these cards did not pull their weight.
The problem, IMHO, with SotSW is the lack of haste to take advantage of any of its abilities. The flying, first strike, and vigilance is nice... but at 8 mana there are more game changing bombs available. As a target for Sharuum from the graveyard, again nice but if I re-animate a creature it would probably be Magister Sphinx or Sundering Titan. Both creatures give an effect right away; passing the turn and waiting for a benefit seems like asking too much in a multi-player EDH game.
If the playgroup or tourney setting was more combat orientated or light on mass/spot removal, then I would run Sphinx of the Steel Wind. However in my area, combo and removal are heavily played; so I need cards with immediate effect.
The Jester's Cap is to disrupt a) the combo player, and b) the player, I believe, is packing the most anti-Sharuum cards. If I know/suspect someone is running combo, then I use Cap to take pieces of the combo. The other instance, I use cap on the player that may have the most hate cards versus my deck. For instance, I may Cap the Zur player because I suspect Energy Flux will be fetched out (while also Cap'ing out the Armageddon and Tormod's Crypt, etc.).
Unfortunately, the EDH tourney is really fast paced here because so many people run combo as primary win conditions. Fortunately, I have not run into a problem with self-inflicted damage.
EDH games where everyone agrees to play noncombo decks, I play Hazezon Tamar. Casting big, ridiculous spells and turning creatures sideways to attack is the most fun, IMHO.
I agree, it is not a staple to the deck. Memnarch could be replaced; only shines when you mana accel to steal permanents as a pseudo removal.
Actually, I have been going back and forth with Faith's Fetters and Oblivion Ring. Some form of life gain vs removal from the game. I went with the lower CC. I already have Vindicate, what do you suggest as a permanent removal spell (especially for Plaineswalkers)?
In short, I <3 Rhystic Study.
In long, Rhystic Study does its work in one of two ways: 1) Draws you cards because other players do not want to trade their tempo (mostly seen with players racing eachother to combo), or 2) draws nothing but creates a slower environment since opponents have to tap more and play less spells.
Making the decklist, I focused on tutoring, some card draw and some mana accel; basically card advantage and having the mana to do something with the card advantage.
If life loss becomes an issue, I would swap the O-Ring for Faith's Fetters and swap Memnarch for Filigree Angel because the Angel gives the life up front without waiting like the Sphinx of the Steel Wind.
Correct. There are games where you can just lock an opponent out. For example turn one, Mishra's Workshop and
playcast Crucible of Worlds. Turn two, Strip Mine and repeat until opponent misses land drops for you to play your spells.The other reason for inclusion is to replay the bomb lands when they are LD'ed; especially because of the Legend Rule for Academy Ruins, Tolarian Academy, and Volrath's Stronghold are all pretty popular in decks.
Compulsion looks like it would be a strong inclusion; the longer the games goes Compulsion would get stronger with more mana to cycle cards, tutor to the top and cycle, etc.
The more I think about Compulsion, the more I like it... card draw and outlet. I will have to give it a try! Thanks!
Another card for feedback is Palinchron. Tolarian Academy with five artifact in play and Palinchron can set up a mana-loop. Throw Compulsion or Staff of Domination into it, I can draw/pitch my deck to set up the win.
Has anyone tried/used these cards? Worth it or junk?
So far, Careful Study is certainly proving to be a worthy inclusion. It's one of the better set-up cards in the deck at the moment; if it shows up in your opener, it essentially stretches your kept grip by two cards, which is just amazing. Late game, it doesn't really hurt you due to the cost; even a whiff doesn't really hurt when it only costs U. Actually, it hasn't even hurt me yet as a top-deck; the two occasions that I have come across pulling it from the top resulted in immediately dumping Magister Sphinx into the yard for a same-turn Sharuum activation, and the other gave me Oblivion Stone the following turn, where waiting the extra turn for the natural draw would have lost me the game. It's a keeper for me so far.
DC is a bit trickier. As a rule, I'm not crazy about paying more than 3-CMC for a tutor effect; I am convinced this is better than Liliana in this build, however. For five mana, I'm getting a card in-hand. While I may get a second activation from Vess if she survives, I am *far* more likely to get a second Collusion off from my hand. The buyback cost is just sheer bonus; I've cast it three times and paid:
1) Darksteel Forge, Island
2) Magister Sphinx, Memory Jar
3) Sundering Titan, Oblivion Stone
I'd rather rip Demonic Tutor, but for those of you who have space for a 5-cmc tutor, I'd use this over Vess every time.
I run SotSW in casual games. (I usually pull Titan, Sphinx, and Extractor Demon to make the deck less of a combo-killer and more of an aggro build) Slotted next to Inkwell Leviathan, it seems to work pretty well. Great Sculpting Steel target in those games too. In competetive matches, though, it seems to be a wasted slot, simply because there are creatures that win faster, and creatures that gain life better. I'd say it depends on your environment.
Agreed 100%. I play Cap for the same reasons, and have never regretted the include.
It's very important to pay attention to what RS does subliminally when quantifying the inclusion. The fact that it becomes a pseudo-Sphere Of Resistance is what makes it so strong; it follows the EDH mantra of getting a return of card quality or advantage on every investment you make. This is an auto-include for me as well.
It is also worth noting that if Sharuum has a weak link, it tends to be in the land department. Crucible is worth inclusion if for no other reason than it lets you climb back out of land-destruction blowouts.
Compulsion is like the twin of Artificer's Intuition; like Collusion above, the drawback is a bonus in this deck, and it combos well with Crucible too. I've been using this card for a while, and it rarely dissapoints.
I actually pulled Staff from my build. Since the deck has better ways to just win, I found that I'd nearly rather have anything pop up instead of it. If you run some sort of infinite mana combo, it pulls weight, but otherwise, I find it to draw a ton of hate when it hits.
So to that end, Palinchron might be decent as an alternate win-con that can also chump-block or beat, but it really needs Academy and Staff both to be in play to be really worth it. And at that point, you might be better off running an easier to tutor (read: artifact) mana combo like Basalt/Rings or something.
--->DJ
Even though Careful Study is a sorcery, I like the low CC. Strong reasoning for inclusion; stretching the opening hand and not hurting CC-wise with a top deck. I will have to consider my meta and decide where I can fit Study in the deck.
Still worried about the Collusion in this slot because of the mana requirement of 2+ uses versus the mana requirement of 2+ uses from Vess. I do agree with you that 1) tutor to the hand and 2) the buyback outlet makes the Collusion functionally better than Vess.
Agreed.
Yes. This.
DJ was able to 100% more clearly state my intended post on RS regarding slowing down the game with an opponent only "pseudo-Sphere of Resistance."
Thanks for the input! I won't bother stuffing either card into the deck...
Few more questions/suggestions:
Graveyard removal-Obviously playgroup dependent, but does Relic of Progenitus or Feldon's Cane have a place in here?
Myr Incubator-Too slow/risky? Maybe I just like the novelty.
Esper Charm-Have you found this useful enough? I like the utility a lot, just seems a bit underwhelming. Then again, instant speed draw is good.
Board Sweepers-No desire for anymore than the one tutorable Damnation?
Equipment-Not too much that would be helpful, but Lightning Graves is usually pretty solid to protect your general (or SotSW, if you play him) and can keep Sharuum's cost from becoming prohibitive.
Etherium Sculptor-Can drastically speed up a hand, are you facing too many board sweepers though?
Mind Stone-Not amazing by any stretch, but the ability to trade for a card late game can be helpful.
Memory Plunder-Surprisingly effective and instant speed. Wrath, counters, Fact or Fiction, tutors and other swingy spells that are commonly played give this card a built in toolbox.
Also, Voyager Staff was listed before and seems pretty useful as a utility card, plus it can make Sharuum very, very annoying.
I'd be interested in seeing the current list too, I've been building my own Sharruum deck after both yours and the comments I've seen from DJ Catchem, so the more information the better
i also play Sharuum, and i originally didn't have counterspells mainly cuz i hate them, and i wanted to see if i could win without them. now i have 6-7 in my deck not to "police" the game. counterspells have 2 purposes in my deck. 1) to prevent my opponent from resolving they're key cards/combos and 2) to prevent my opponent from preventing me from resolving my key cards/combos.
:symr::symg:Burning Elf Ball:symg::symr:
EDH
:symg:Omnath, The big green mana machine:snow:
:symr:Ashling:snow: 1v1 non-french
:symuw::symru::symrb::symgb::symgw:Pauper Child:symwr::symbw::symub::symgu::symrg:
:symg:Ruric Thar, 6 TO THE FACE!!:gruul:
Under Construction
:symu:Lord of Tressurehorn:symbr: Grixis Control
:symbr:Olivia Voldaren:rakdos: Almost mono black Control
:symbu::symbg::symgu:Progenitus:symwr: 5 Color Stompy Toolbox