I've been running with this guy since just before he was released in Planechase 2012. I love the deck. It's a blast.
See, at first I thought one-shotting people would be just absolutely awesome. When Bruna, Light of Alabaster debuted a few months ago I was positively thrilled to start wrecking people with a hasty 15/15 flying double-striking anihillator 4 angel of awesome. But it turned out that the best game plan with her was to control the board, then combo out all at once with Intuition and Three Dreams. Essentially, I was playing a combo deck. I didn't find this very gratifying, so shiny foil Bruna went into the box.
Then Thromok came along and I got real excited for the same reasons. OMG U CAN ONESHOT BUYBUYBUY. Then I reminded myself, "hey, remember how *not* fun that was with Bruna?". But what I found is that Thromok is a bit different. Sure, he's often a 25/25. But often you aren't even winning with him. You're just swarming with tokens. And since you're playing with the devour mechanic and wheels and such, the games are a generally a lot less predictable, even with a few powered-up tutors. In short, one-shotting people is awesome again.
I wanted to post my list here and eventually start writing a primer, but I think I need to play the deck more first and try out some more configurations before I can call myself an expert.
So the plan is obviously to ramp into some 5-drop creature token generators, then it varies from there. Sometimes I aim for the stampede. Most times I just try to get Thromok out there with haste and trample and beat for 25 or 36. Sometimes I just want to get him cast so I can Greater Good him into 25 cards. It's kind of all over the place.
Just a few comments on some more peculiar card choices:
Preyseizer Dragon is like a second Thromok that just wrecks things. I haven't had to use him yet but I can't wait to get him out of a pod chain with haste. He seems just amazing on paper. I have him out for now but I hardly ever got the chance to use him anyway.
Compost would be pure meta call. Same with Reap, but I don't have one yet. Roughly two out of three decks I play against have some creature-based black, sometimes all three. One is a zombie deck that can't even deal with this enchant. It makes sense without being unfair, so I play it.
I've left out some mana-intensive token generators like Ant Queen on purpose for now because it bugs me how long it takes for them to get going. It is frustrating to have a vanilla 5/5 that time walks your next turn just to make some ants. I much prefer the guys you can fire and forget, like Deranged Hermit.
Feedback is appreciated! Please offer more than "random token generator X is a good card"- I have heard of most all of them at this point and I'd like to hear about what you'd cut for your recommendations and why.
Notes:
Gamble-->Genesis Wave?
Kiki-Jiki?
Yavimaya Elder should be here
Rogue's Passage?
Sneak Attack?
Thromok seems cool, and I know my brother had considered it at one point, but he pointed out to me that he felt like the gameplan would be pretty much the same every game; crank out as many creatures as he could, bring Thromok in and devour everything to make him as big as possible and then proceed to wail on whoever he was playing again. He was worried the play would get stale, but I wasn't sure about that. Do you find there is enough variance in the gameplay to keep it interesting?
EDIT: Is he often only 25/25? Maybe I am reading what he says wrong, but if you devour say... Ten token creatures to him as he comes into play, wouldn't he get +10/+10 for each creature devoured, making him a 100/100 creature?
EDIT: Is he often only 25/25? Maybe I am reading what he says wrong, but if you devour say... Ten token creatures to him as he comes into play, wouldn't he get +10/+10 for each creature devoured, making him a 100/100 creature?
This is true. I think it's probably just hard to get 10 critters onto the battlefield at the same time, even given all the token generators. More often that not I assume it's a case of "play Deranged Hermit/Hornet Queen then EAT ALL THE TOKENS!"
Maybe Thragtusk? He's been spoiled for the M13 Event decks, so hopefully that'll take a chunk out of his $14 price tag. If I were to pick one up, I think Kazandu Tuskcaller would go. She seems awfully slow.
With 21 commander damage being lethal and a fling of 25 (or 36) also being mostly lethal, I find that devouring any more than 5 or 6 guys is wasteful. Those guys can get left behind for Pod, Skullclamp, chump blocking, future devouring, perhaps tapping for mana with Citanul Hierophants or Earthcraft, etc.
And that's precisely what makes Thromok fun to play. Well, that and he's jut enormous and I find that satisfying :). What to devour and when are actually complex questions based on the board state. Since the deck can win easily with Thromok beats OR token beats (and I'm a little guilty of not token beating enough), you have a great amount of control over just what your threat looks like. Does your opponent need a bunch of blockers, or just one? Do they have Elesh Norn, or spot removal? You can respond to these situations by combining your tokens into Voltron, or just leaving them as tokens. Also consider the situation where you have Eldrazi Monument or Citanul Hierophants in play- are you ready to sacrifice 5 mana dorks or indestructibility just to have the biggest vanilla guy on the board? You're always giving and taking, turning one kind of resource into another. That does a lot more for me than "Intuition, greaves, GG" every game like with Bruna.
TL;DR: Tokens are a lot of fun and very good on their own. Thromok just gives you something cool to do with them.
Pandemonium and Warstorm Surge serve as spot removal with token generators, then let you kill 2 people at once when you drop Thromok. (Yes I'm aware that only combat damage counts as general damage, but you still only need 7 creatures to deal 49 to the face).
Vicious Shadows is even more damage than the above usually. It also triggers off your opponents' creatures deaths, so all those wraths running around suddenly get very dangerous.
Have you considered Insurrection, Mass Mutiny or other theft devices? Aside from being it's own wincon, it's always fun to devour other people's stuff.
With all the token generators, and the ETB land grabber creatures (which you know I am a fan of), Warp World can be an amusing way to shift up the gamestate more. You don't even need to 'abuse' it. Problem board state? Wheel it!
It may be a tad expensive, and doesn't work off a warp, but In the web of war is great with token producers, and a generaloly (hah!) good haste outlet. (You see what I did there?! generally? I love EDH...)
Thragtusk is pretty meh unfortunately for the price tag. He's 2 bodies for 5 mana and basically I care little how big they are. Tukatongue Thallid or Young Wolf would produce similar results without bounce abuse.
Thanks for suggesting the Kazandu Tuskcaller cut. It is slow, but it's a great early play and it eats spot removal for the rest of my deck. Probably that's not enough though?
Garruk 2: Honestly I never think of this guy because I'm used to him being a 25-dollar planeswalker. Now that he's relatively inexpensive, and he does churn out tokens and draw cards, well that's a pretty good effect. Maybe I should try him out as well. I don't like his 5 mana cost because unfortunately that conflicts with a lot of good 5-drops in the deck, but he does plus to make tokens rather than minus and that is a big improvement over Garruk 1. I should trade for one.
@Uranium
Pandemonium and Warstorm surge are amazing. The problem with Pandemonium is that it also works on your opponents' creatures, and I play against a few token decks myself so I am afraid it will blow me out bigtime. Warstorm Surge dodges that deftly, however. It could get in over Goblin Bombardment or a sweeper or something (Blasphemous Act? Mogg Infestation?), since Insurrection isn't as much of a problem now as it used to be. It is a stupid powerful effect for this deck. I think I will make room for it somehow.
Vicious Shadows is some sick wrath protection. A few of the deck I am playing against lately have almost no way to deal with enchantments and play lots of tokens so I can imagine it being a near-instant win in many scenarios. As a finisher it works well too because Thromok can easily trigger it as a faux-sac outlet. You'll notice it's sitting in the maybeboard till I find what I can cut.
@Bob (lol)
I do play Helm of Possession to eat other players' dudes. As for the rest of the stealy cards, without an active cradle or Hierophants it is pretty tough to steal someone's guys, then eat them- we're talking a minimum of 10 mana, unfortunately. There's no voltron decks at the moment to abuse the stealing with, so those two will sit out for now.
Warp World would be awesome but again I am unfortunately pitted against other token decks regularly that would be happy to bash my face in with it, although casting Thromok after resolution could be pretty awesome depending on what flips. I might throw it in one of these days just to try it.
Reforge is very very good but with Wheel already in the deck I would have to come up with a cut for it. It will be tight but I expect probably a lot better than the Harmonize I used to play. Greater Good is one option because it triggers profitably on so few things with the deck, but it's just such a huge blowout with Thromok it's hard to cut it.
I question how useful the +2/+0 is on Web. If I am attacking with the tokens I'm making, they're probably dying by blocks while pushing just some damage through. I'm not sure how much I like that? The haste is obviously amazing but I wonder if I'd rather just play Fervor instead. How much do you think the power boost matters in here?
Since you don't expect to keep the tokens around for long, why not some 1-shot token creation? T2 Krenko's Command/Dragon Fodder into T3 Scatter the Seeds covers you for a 25/25, and you still have another turn to drop haste-giving stuff and/or replenish your tokens if someone destroyed one/you want to drop a 36/36.
I did play Nest Invader at one point. I do love getting more bodies for the mana. Emrakul's Hatcher loses out to Siege-Gang Commander and Kessig Cagebreakers IMO but is also a very good card for the deck. Ultimately I decided I wasn't sure the impact of just 2 for 2 was that great.
Unfortunately I'm not a fan of the you mentioned because they are not creature spells so I can't use Pod, Survival, etc. The noncreature spells I do have, I don't even like :). One goal of mine is to reduce my dependence on non-creatures as much as possible.
One non-creature token maker I do like that gets put in and cut every now and then is Sprout Swarm. Instant speed, convoke, buyback... as long as you have a few tokens and some mana EoT this will just keep pumping them out. It's really great incremental advantage that basically has to be countered to slow down.
M13 actually gave us Fungal Sprouting, which is just a huge blowout with an active Thromok but honestly you are looking at 9 mana in one turn to make it reliable. It might be good enough for its synergy with the few devour guys in here (Thromok, Skullmulcher, Preyseizer Dragon) but many of those are so good on their own and one wrath answers the entire threat so I have been hesitant to just chuck it in there.
Chancellor of the Forge, Parallel Evolution, and Saproling Symbiosis can all be used to get very aggressive with tokens, often doubling your creatures right there and then.
Beastmaster turns your tokens into very viable threats and can surprise people as you drop it and swing with at least 7 tokens.
Asceticism is probably a must as it gives both Hexproof for your creatures and a way to regenerate during board sweepers.
Ulasht gives you another token generator, which may be slow depending on how often your board presence is big, but also can ping for some damage and can get a body on him.
Elemental Mastery is gorgeous as it now can turn Thromok into a Token factory himself, and you can probably guess the obscene amounts of tokens he can spew out.
Phyrexian Altar/Ashnod's Altar are both great sac outlets that can ramp you as well if needed. I would maybe not include both as normally you might only need one, but if you want the better chance to pull one of the other run them in tandem.
Cards I'm not too fond of in your current build:
Night Soil, Imperious Perfect - These feel a little slow and not as explosive.
Brittle Effigy - feels like this might not be as good if you get more aggressive, I'd put Helm of Possession here if Helm wasn't so useful long term and not a one-shot effect.
Preyseizer Dragon - feels a little slow and requires a good deal of tokens to become that threatening.
Mogg Infestation - I love this card, I really do; however, in token decks you normally want to hit yourself with it, and if the thought of doubling your creatures you currently have for 1/1 goblins with no buffs is a good play, I feel you need better creatures.
Long post, but just wanted to put a lot of thoughts out there. Seeing the list though gives me some new ideas for my Ulasht deck as well.
I built a insatiable deck recently and decided that I like playing with lots of mana dorks, as they feed both ramp and a bigger general.In my eta, they live long enough to become food. For this same reason, I run all good eldrazi spawn generation. Rapacious One and haste outlets have served me well, despite its drawbacks. I also run viscous shadows, which creates a "cute" interaction with boatloads of spawn.
On the tuskcaller: I personally am a big fan of it, but it's not the fastest short of doubling season in play.
I play soul's fire as another fling, abet more easily stopped.
Thanks for the detailed post. You make some really good points and I'll try to get to them each.
Chancellor, Parallel Evolution and Saproling Symbiosis scare me because they are dead cards if I have no creatures, via wrath or Thromok feeding franzy or whatever. Chancellor is too much mana for the effect, unfortunately (the uber-deadly Vicious Shadows costs the same). Parallel Evolution is definitely out due to meta call because I'm not the only token deck at the table, even though I'm a sucker for flashback. Symbiosis seems like it's the best one to try because of the instant rider on it. That would make it very much worth it for me. I will try to get one. Thanks for turning me on to it.
Beastmaster Ascension is a phenomenal card and I think I might have taken it out to test something and forgot about it. It will absolutely go back in. I loaned the deck out once and without a snap Gisela tutoring (with the Mayael deck I was borrowing at the time) I was dead on the board to that with like 70 power coming at me :). I had been looking for one more pump/anthem effect that that is exactly what I wanted. It was right under my nose, of course.
Asceticism is quite good. What kept me from playing it initially is that I have a preference for token generators that you fire and forget, so keeping them from removal isn't a big priority, and also it doesn't grant the magic haste or trample that Thromok so desperately craves. Normally I'd say regenerate isn't that great but the ability to regen Thromok through a wrath, leaving players with no blockers, is essentially proactive Kamahl-style wrath protection and that should count for something. I'll keep it on the short list for now over, say, Swiftfoot Boots.
As for Ulasht, I used to have an Ulasht deck so this was an easy transition. Mana Echoes FTW :). He seems a little slow for me and is yet another card that needs to have an existing board state to make an impact so I find his use a bit questionable. I can't play too many cards that only work when you have creatures, so the ones I do play have to be awesome and not just utility guys like I feel Ulasht is.
Elemental Mastery seems like such 2-for-1 bait at first but the upside is glorious here (WHAT A MONSTROUS CREACHER! /diablojoke). Seems really good if I play enough hexproof. Maybe a batch swap with Asceticism down the road could make it more desirable. Unfortunately I have so few guys in the deck with a lot of power themselves that it can be tough to get any big benefit out of the card from anyone but Thromok, so I am a bit apprehensive for that reason too.
Ashnod's Altar is great with token mana sinks but unfortunately I don't have too many of those. One sac outlet I do love that I'm not playing at the moment is Spawning Pit. That's a great way to recover from a wrath for a sacrifice outlet, and it keeps cradle and Thromok ready. *Side note: How can I have a deck with tokens, Cradle, and no X spell to burn out my opponents? Need to find room for a Comet Storm in here*
On cuts, which I thank you much for because they are typically more useful to me than recommendations:
Night Soil is slow. It is, however, my only piece of grave hate, which is actually the more important function here. And it's super-oppressive grave hate too since the removal of the creatures is a cost that cannot be responded to. You cannot fight zombie tribal without grave hate, so I believe it has to stay unfortunately.
Imperious Perfect (and by extension, Kazandu Tuskcaller) are both slow. I could see cutting them both for some more explosive options. The problem it, what do I do for just two or three mana that is better than they are? Should I raise the curve to accommodate more powerful options? They are so cheap though- you just fire em off and they take no more than 1 mana to keep running. I am torn on these guys.
Preyseizer I have to disagree with you on how threatening he can be. With haste around, which is often, he needs only to eat 3 guys to become a 10/10 flyer that burns anything for 6 when he attacks. Haste just brings him to a whole new level of competence and since the deck is already packing plenty of haste for Thromok, he seems like a pretty good fit actually. Now, whether or not he's better than Beastmaster Ascension or whatever else, that is certainly up for debate.
Brittle Effigy is quite narrow and it was a meta call for a general I don't play against that much anymore. The best thing it can do now is kill a Gravecrawler for good and that's not enough for me. It will definitely come out.
Mogg Infestation: You make a really, really good point about this. I don't want to use it on opponents OR myself, do I? In fact, one of the decks I play against routinely is a Krenko deck whose pilot just might kiss me if I cast this on him. GONE.
You've inspired me. Changes incoming! How do these look?
These changes look good, aside from removing Yavimaya Elder, I feel that he is too good for just advantage overall, that I like him over something like Growth Spasm. Sure you don't get the land into play, but you get 2 lands to hand along with a draw if you use the ability.
As for the recommendations, I agree that the metas define how you play a lot, and in my Ulasht deck I can maintain tokens decently enough or be able to spew more out, including infiniting with Ulasht if need be. Elemental Mastery could be a 2for1, but don't forget you can place it on other creatures to simple make a few more tokens, placing this on a Dragonlair Spider could often be enough to give you enough tokens for Thromok as well. It has a few applications, but its definitely a card that could not work in some scenarios. The sac outlets are something to keep in mind though in case you run into tuck in your meta or bribery effects without Homeward Path around.
Overall I would commit hard to either setting up Thromok for wins, or doing overall token strategies. Because doing things like Electropotence/Warstorm Surge/Soul's Fire would help if you are planing on using Thromok to win, otherwise, token strategies with Thromok piloting would be good with Chancellor/Verdant Force/Verdeloth The Ancient.
Oh, and just for mention of Soul's Fire, Soul's Majesty can be a good draw power if you get it off. Even a Thromok for only 3 devour can make this very strong (or obscene with 5+) in line with Garruk Primal Hunter. And I also forgot about Mana Echoes in Ulasht, I'll have to put that back in.
Edit: Fresh Meat! This is the card I was straining myself to remember. This is definitely needed.
Since you don't expect to keep the tokens around for long, why not some 1-shot token creation? T2 Krenko's Command/Dragon Fodder into T3 Scatter the Seeds covers you for a 25/25, and you still have another turn to drop haste-giving stuff and/or replenish your tokens if someone destroyed one/you want to drop a 36/36.
Unfortunately I'm not a fan of the you mentioned because they are not creature spells so I can't use Pod, Survival, etc. The noncreature spells I do have, I don't even like :). One goal of mine is to reduce my dependence on non-creatures as much as possible.
1) The tokens it creates are, of course, have synergy with Thromok.
2) If you're throwing Warstorm Surge into the deck, Warstorm Surge + Sekki, Seasons' Guide is a two card infinite damage combo. How it works is Sekki enters the battlefield, Warstorm Surge deals 8 damage to Sekki. 8 counters get removed, 8 tokens get created. Those tokens do 8 damage (1 each) to whatever target you want. Then you sacrifice them to reanimate Sekki. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Now, of course, whether or not you're looking to insert something that bonkers into your deck is, of course, your prerogative. However, the option is available.
These changes look good, aside from removing Yavimaya Elder, I feel that he is too good for just advantage overall, that I like him over something like Growth Spasm. Sure you don't get the land into play, but you get 2 lands to hand along with a draw if you use the ability.
Good call. I think you are right on this one. It's not ramp but it's probably better, and I do love creature synergy.
Overall I would commit hard to either setting up Thromok for wins, or doing overall token strategies.
The reason I don't do this is that I enjoy the versatility of going one way or the other. The deck is more fun for me that way too. If I focused on one or the other, you are right- the deck would have some greater reach and blowout potential. But I prefer to be able to win either way if necessary. Thromok and tokens are synergistic enough that it's not like deciding between aggro or control or anything that far apart.
Edit: Fresh Meat! This is the card I was straining myself to remember. This is definitely needed.
It is a pretty decent wrath protection option but with so few instant-speed options in the deck you do have to work to keep the four mana open for this. It is pretty good with devour guys...
Sneak Attack is bananas and I do have one. My Riku deck plays a little similarly and it is one of the best cards in that deck. It does work very well with the fire-and-forget token makers like Deranged Hermit and friends. Maybe I'm afraid it'll be too good?
Master of the Wild Hunt I have tried and I just find him too slow. Sometimes I feel like I'm lacking some lower-end generation though and he goes back in. Oracle of Mul Daya's ramp I have found to be more useful. Howl of the Night Pack isn't good enough because I don't play a ton of basic lands in here.
This is a much better card for the deck than those sorceries. At one time I went looking for mine and I couldn't find it. It's no Nest Invader but it would come in right behind it.
Sarkhan is pretty good but I don't really feel like buying one right now. You can't have enough haste, and he lives through the board wipes that normally own tokens. Beserk is also super expensive :(.
Solemn is decent but I passed a point in my green deck construction where I decided I just didnt need him anymore. He is great value for 4 mana but he's no Oracle of Mul Daya diesel ramp engine and he doesn't make tokens, so he doesn't contribute much to the plan unfortunately except that eating him draws a card.
Mycoloth is really strong if people leave him alone but I find I rarely get to untap with him. He's so strong he can sometimes not even worth playing because he's too hard to protect. Great card though.
Champion of Lambholt is really good. I played him in sealed AVR on a 3-0-1 day (Tamiyo/Devastation Tide player forced a draw :-/) and any game where he wasn't killed on sight he just totally owned. I cut mine at one point though for testing because believe it or not he is actually kind of slow. He lets your army get through for damage BUT your army has to be big or it doesn't matter really. Then again, he lets Thromok also get though for damage but any old trample enabler would do the same thing. I am always looking for cheap creatures who make a serious impact though (and eat removal that would otherwise be for Thromok) so I'll get him out of my green cards again.
Myr Battlesphere fills a similar role to Hornet Queen and Avenger of Zendikar but is worse than both in this deck. It's a fine card though for anyone who needs a third 7-drop token guy.
And finally Winding Canyons is in fact very good, but I get antsy after I play more than X colorless lands and I'm sort of at my comfortable limit here. I could maybe sub out Buried Ruin instead, which I only really use to get Skullclamp back. That's not a bad idea actually.
1) The tokens it creates are, of course, have synergy with Thromok.
2) If you're throwing Warstorm Surge into the deck, Warstorm Surge + Sekki, Seasons' Guide is a two card infinite damage combo. How it works is Sekki enters the battlefield, Warstorm Surge deals 8 damage to Sekki. 8 counters get removed, 8 tokens get created. Those tokens do 8 damage (1 each) to whatever target you want. Then you sacrifice them to reanimate Sekki. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Now, of course, whether or not you're looking to insert something that bonkers into your deck is, of course, your prerogative. However, the option is available.
Yep. Too good
My only issue with Sekki is that I don't get the tokens unless I somehow get it to take damage. I don't have too many sources of direct damage (and I'm sure my opponents couldn't wait to attack into him hahahaha), so I'm afraid for 8 mana he'd be kind of a wash here. Thanks for the suggestion though- I don't play with Warstorm Surge a lot so I was unaware of the combo. Also worth noting is how quickly Sekki gets out of hand with Doubling Season...
I only saw two things of import in the list.
Imperious Perfect: This has been mentioned before and I saw your comment on it. What if perhaps you didn't use this slot to generate tokens, and instead added something with a CIP effect that let you get one of your token producers? Goblin Matron for example gets you Siege-Gang in hand and is another creature you can devour. Vithian Renegades can destroy someone's sol ring! I had a few other options lower and higher on my curve, but I've yet to test my deck to really want to recommend them
Citanul Hierophants: I feel like this guy lends himself to really explosive giant mana plays, but I don't see a ton of those. Plus your big mana explosive plays are going to require haste. Seems unexciting to me, I'd rather just get a land or two.
I do play Helm of Possession to eat other players' dudes. As for the rest of the stealy cards, without an active cradle or Hierophants it is pretty tough to steal someone's guys, then eat them- we're talking a minimum of 10 mana, unfortunately. There's no voltron decks at the moment to abuse the stealing with, so those two will sit out for now.
Warp World would be awesome but again I am unfortunately pitted against other token decks regularly that would be happy to bash my face in with it, although casting Thromok after resolution could be pretty awesome depending on what flips. I might throw it in one of these days just to try it.
Reforge is very very good but with Wheel already in the deck I would have to come up with a cut for it. It will be tight but I expect probably a lot better than the Harmonize I used to play. Greater Good is one option because it triggers profitably on so few things with the deck, but it's just such a huge blowout with Thromok it's hard to cut it.
I question how useful the +2/+0 is on Web. If I am attacking with the tokens I'm making, they're probably dying by blocks while pushing just some damage through. I'm not sure how much I like that? The haste is obviously amazing but I wonder if I'd rather just play Fervor instead. How much do you think the power boost matters in here?
I thought I had answered this earlier, but must not have put it through. Sorry about that.
Before I get back to it, let me toss one on the pile for Winding Canyons: it is one of my favorite lands in this format, especially for creature-based decks.
While colorless lands tend to hurt your color base a bit, I would actually not be too worried about it if I were you. The fact is, since you're playing green, most of your lands should be coming out due to your land search effects; this means that you'll artificially have a larger percentage of colored lands out in play compared to your deck construction percentages.
I actually run(ran) 10 colorless lands in Cromat, on top of 6 fetch lands, and a Maze of Ith. That's 17 lands that don't tap for color (or even mana) out of 43, and with minor exceptions (Overbeing of Myth), I rarely have mana issues in the deck. I don't even run that much in the way of land search either. If you don't count the sac lands (since they get real mana), then its an 11 out of 37 ratio, in a 5c deck.
Reforge to me is a very fairly costed Wheel. You have a very aggressive curve (or I seem to have thought you did?), so I feel that promoting that and taking advantage of emptying your hand quickly into a wheel would be very powerful. Wheel/Reforge are two of the best draw effects that you can get in red, and frankly, I feel two of the best in the entire game. Few other cards give you such a high card/mana ratio.
In the web of war is simply amazing. Aside from people who happen to be open, the 2 extra damage will often be tripling the damage your fresh tokens do. Who cares if a few die? Tokens are cheap, expendable, and replaceable. Non-token decks will only have a few blockers at best, you might lose a token to a Titan, but unless their other blockers have greater than 3 toughness, they'll have to lose good creatures to stop your onslaught. Naturally, this works better the more creatures you can put out each turn. This is also aside from the synergy with Pandemonium and Warstorm Surge, of course. It may be a bit of a meta call, but I urge you to try it out.
I only saw two things of import in the list.
Imperious Perfect: This has been mentioned before and I saw your comment on it. What if perhaps you didn't use this slot to generate tokens, and instead added something with a CIP effect that let you get one of your token producers? Goblin Matron for example gets you Siege-Gang in hand and is another creature you can devour. Vithian Renegades can destroy someone's sol ring! I had a few other options lower and higher on my curve, but I've yet to test my deck to really want to recommend them
Citanul Hierophants: I feel like this guy lends himself to really explosive giant mana plays, but I don't see a ton of those. Plus your big mana explosive plays are going to require haste. Seems unexciting to me, I'd rather just get a land or two.
Otherwise, I like your list!
Thanks! Well I already play Fierce Empath, so he was the first thing I thought of. Mwonvuli Beast Tracker would get me Dragonlair Spider, but it doesn't draw me the card and I hate that. Goblin Matron is a good choice as it also gets Beetleback Chief as well as SGC. I think you have hit on something very important here! I'll keep looking for cards that do this. Another cute one I've played in the past is Gamekeeper. It's random, but who cares? Man what I wouldn't do for an Imperial Recruiter It's time for a reprint of that guy a la X-D the One-Eyed.
As for heirophants- This guy is has been really really good for me. I frequently pod into it off a 3-drop and use the mana to play something gamechanging. I can't say its the perfect card but the mana does help and it has led to enough blowouts that it's earned his place for now. I've actually considered adding an X-spell here to utilize the mana from these guys and Cradle and Comet Storm is high on my list of cards to get back in here sometime.
I feel like the things needed for steal support would water down the deck, since they're only really synergistic with devour and the occasional sac outlet in this case. Zealous Conscripts is obviously a good enough card on his own to warrant consideration, it's just that the 5-drop spot on my curve is super tight and I am afraid of gumming it up, even with such a good pod target. On the other hand, blinky things like the closet could be huge here. Voyager Staff is a pet card of mine as well but I'm afraid it's a big nonbo with Thromok so it is less useful as a one-shot effect.
I am going ahead and trying out Reforge in addition to the wheel. I love casting Wheel of Fortune in this deck so another one can't really hurt too much. Snap-miracling it on a draw seems easy enough.
For ItWoW I just see that 5 mana cost and hold my breath. I do want to try it! I'd have to cut something expensive to make room for it and looking at the list other than something like Duplicant or Urabrask, both of which I love hitting with pod, I'm not sure what I would cut. I guess Spike Weaver is also a possibility too but I love having a hedge against Insurrection and other token swarms. Maybe it's better than Asceticism, allowing me to play more aggressively? Actually Web is so much better with my tokens than Asceticism I wonder if it's not even close. What do you guys think?
I think Asceticism is a good card, but doesn't always have a place. The only creature you're really needing to protect is Thromok himself, and I feel there are better options for that.
I think Asceticism is a good card, but doesn't always have a place. The only creature you're really needing to protect is Thromok himself, and I feel there are better options for that.
Broken Fall and Molting Skin are criminally underused. I've used them to great effect in Kresh. Often I'm happier to see them as opposed to Asceticism since they can protect themselves.
I'm digging Broken Fall and Molting Skin. Could be good in my Sigarda build.
Is there a reason for Spike Weaver other than the fog ability? If he's just there as a 4 drop for Pod then I wonder if Yeva, Nature's Herald would be a better choice.
I'm digging Broken Fall and Molting Skin. Could be good in my Sigarda build.
Is there a reason for Spike Weaver other than the fog ability? If he's just there as a 4 drop for Pod then I wonder if Yeva, Nature's Herald would be a better choice.
Nope. It's sketchy, I know. I am not crazy about the spot either. He has saved me once or twice though so I am a little irrationally attached to the idea of a mini fog machine. Yeva sounds pretty interesting in its place as her presence means I can threaten to flash in blockers, and it's another way for Thromok to get pseudo haste. I like utility cards to be more than one-trick ponies and Yeva definitely fits the bill for that.
Thanks for the idea.
Also kind of dig those regenerate enchants. I just love that they can protect themselves. I had never seen them before until they were brought up here.
I've been running with this guy since just before he was released in Planechase 2012. I love the deck. It's a blast.
See, at first I thought one-shotting people would be just absolutely awesome. When Bruna, Light of Alabaster debuted a few months ago I was positively thrilled to start wrecking people with a hasty 15/15 flying double-striking anihillator 4 angel of awesome. But it turned out that the best game plan with her was to control the board, then combo out all at once with Intuition and Three Dreams. Essentially, I was playing a combo deck. I didn't find this very gratifying, so shiny foil Bruna went into the box.
Then Thromok came along and I got real excited for the same reasons. OMG U CAN ONESHOT BUYBUYBUY. Then I reminded myself, "hey, remember how *not* fun that was with Bruna?". But what I found is that Thromok is a bit different. Sure, he's often a 25/25. But often you aren't even winning with him. You're just swarming with tokens. And since you're playing with the devour mechanic and wheels and such, the games are a generally a lot less predictable, even with a few powered-up tutors. In short, one-shotting people is awesome again.
I wanted to post my list here and eventually start writing a primer, but I think I need to play the deck more first and try out some more configurations before I can call myself an expert.
1 Thromok the Insatiable
//Token Generators
1 Beetleback Chief
1 Kozilek's Predator
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Kessig Cagebreakers
1 Mitotic Slime
1 Mycoloth
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Dragon Broodmother
1 Dragonlair Spider
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Hornet Queen
1 Awakening Zone
1 Fresh Meat
//Haste/Evasion
1 Champion of Lambholt
1 Anger
1 Brawn
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Urabrask the Hidden
1 In the Web of War
//Ramp
1 Joraga Treespeaker
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Farhaven Elf
1 Wood Elves
1 Yavimaya Elder (*mismatch)
1 Citanul Hierophants
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Sol Ring
1 Cultivate
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Genesis
1 Skullmulcher
1 Gamble
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Skullclamp
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Sylvan Library
1 Sylvan Scrying
1 Fecundity
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Birthing Pod
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Chord of Calling
//Control
1 Acidic Slime
1 Artifact Mutation
1 Goblin Bombardment
1 Night Soil
1 Beast Within
1 Warstorm Surge
1 Blasphemous Act
//Pump/Finisher
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Fling
1 Beastmaster Ascension
1 Tears of Rage
1 Vicious Shadows
1 Doubling Season
1 Parallel Lives
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
//Lands
1 Command Tower
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Mossfire Valley
1 Rootbound Crag
1 Stomping Ground
1 Taiga
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
1 Shinka, the Bloodsoaked Keep
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Kher Keep
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
1 Tectonic Edge
1 High Market
1 Homeward Path
1 Skarrg, the Rage Pits
1 Winding Canyons
1 Yavimaya Hollow
11 Forest
7 Mountain
1 Natural Order (budget)
1 Earthcraft (need to get one)
So the plan is obviously to ramp into some 5-drop creature token generators, then it varies from there. Sometimes I aim for the stampede. Most times I just try to get Thromok out there with haste and trample and beat for 25 or 36. Sometimes I just want to get him cast so I can Greater Good him into 25 cards. It's kind of all over the place.
Just a few comments on some more peculiar card choices:
Preyseizer Dragon is like a second Thromok that just wrecks things. I haven't had to use him yet but I can't wait to get him out of a pod chain with haste. He seems just amazing on paper. I have him out for now but I hardly ever got the chance to use him anyway.
Compost would be pure meta call. Same with Reap, but I don't have one yet. Roughly two out of three decks I play against have some creature-based black, sometimes all three. One is a zombie deck that can't even deal with this enchant. It makes sense without being unfair, so I play it.
I've left out some mana-intensive token generators like Ant Queen on purpose for now because it bugs me how long it takes for them to get going. It is frustrating to have a vanilla 5/5 that time walks your next turn just to make some ants. I much prefer the guys you can fire and forget, like Deranged Hermit.
Feedback is appreciated! Please offer more than "random token generator X is a good card"- I have heard of most all of them at this point and I'd like to hear about what you'd cut for your recommendations and why.
Notes:
Kiki-Jiki?
Yavimaya Elder should be here
Rogue's Passage?
Sneak Attack?
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EDIT: Is he often only 25/25? Maybe I am reading what he says wrong, but if you devour say... Ten token creatures to him as he comes into play, wouldn't he get +10/+10 for each creature devoured, making him a 100/100 creature?
This is true. I think it's probably just hard to get 10 critters onto the battlefield at the same time, even given all the token generators. More often that not I assume it's a case of "play Deranged Hermit/Hornet Queen then EAT ALL THE TOKENS!"
Maybe Thragtusk? He's been spoiled for the M13 Event decks, so hopefully that'll take a chunk out of his $14 price tag. If I were to pick one up, I think Kazandu Tuskcaller would go. She seems awfully slow.
Also, why Garruk 1.0 over Garruk 2.0?
stuff
And that's precisely what makes Thromok fun to play. Well, that and he's jut enormous and I find that satisfying :). What to devour and when are actually complex questions based on the board state. Since the deck can win easily with Thromok beats OR token beats (and I'm a little guilty of not token beating enough), you have a great amount of control over just what your threat looks like. Does your opponent need a bunch of blockers, or just one? Do they have Elesh Norn, or spot removal? You can respond to these situations by combining your tokens into Voltron, or just leaving them as tokens. Also consider the situation where you have Eldrazi Monument or Citanul Hierophants in play- are you ready to sacrifice 5 mana dorks or indestructibility just to have the biggest vanilla guy on the board? You're always giving and taking, turning one kind of resource into another. That does a lot more for me than "Intuition, greaves, GG" every game like with Bruna.
TL;DR: Tokens are a lot of fun and very good on their own. Thromok just gives you something cool to do with them.
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Vicious Shadows is even more damage than the above usually. It also triggers off your opponents' creatures deaths, so all those wraths running around suddenly get very dangerous.
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Currently Playing:
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Modern:
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With all the token generators, and the ETB land grabber creatures (which you know I am a fan of), Warp World can be an amusing way to shift up the gamestate more. You don't even need to 'abuse' it. Problem board state? Wheel it!
Speaking of wheels, no Reforge?
It may be a tad expensive, and doesn't work off a warp, but In the web of war is great with token producers, and a generaloly (hah!) good haste outlet. (You see what I did there?! generally? I love EDH...)
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@Bismuth
Thragtusk is pretty meh unfortunately for the price tag. He's 2 bodies for 5 mana and basically I care little how big they are. Tukatongue Thallid or Young Wolf would produce similar results without bounce abuse.
Thanks for suggesting the Kazandu Tuskcaller cut. It is slow, but it's a great early play and it eats spot removal for the rest of my deck. Probably that's not enough though?
Garruk 2: Honestly I never think of this guy because I'm used to him being a 25-dollar planeswalker. Now that he's relatively inexpensive, and he does churn out tokens and draw cards, well that's a pretty good effect. Maybe I should try him out as well. I don't like his 5 mana cost because unfortunately that conflicts with a lot of good 5-drops in the deck, but he does plus to make tokens rather than minus and that is a big improvement over Garruk 1. I should trade for one.
@Uranium
Pandemonium and Warstorm surge are amazing. The problem with Pandemonium is that it also works on your opponents' creatures, and I play against a few token decks myself so I am afraid it will blow me out bigtime. Warstorm Surge dodges that deftly, however. It could get in over Goblin Bombardment or a sweeper or something (Blasphemous Act? Mogg Infestation?), since Insurrection isn't as much of a problem now as it used to be. It is a stupid powerful effect for this deck. I think I will make room for it somehow.
Vicious Shadows is some sick wrath protection. A few of the deck I am playing against lately have almost no way to deal with enchantments and play lots of tokens so I can imagine it being a near-instant win in many scenarios. As a finisher it works well too because Thromok can easily trigger it as a faux-sac outlet. You'll notice it's sitting in the maybeboard till I find what I can cut.
@Bob (lol)
I do play Helm of Possession to eat other players' dudes. As for the rest of the stealy cards, without an active cradle or Hierophants it is pretty tough to steal someone's guys, then eat them- we're talking a minimum of 10 mana, unfortunately. There's no voltron decks at the moment to abuse the stealing with, so those two will sit out for now.
Warp World would be awesome but again I am unfortunately pitted against other token decks regularly that would be happy to bash my face in with it, although casting Thromok after resolution could be pretty awesome depending on what flips. I might throw it in one of these days just to try it.
Reforge is very very good but with Wheel already in the deck I would have to come up with a cut for it. It will be tight but I expect probably a lot better than the Harmonize I used to play. Greater Good is one option because it triggers profitably on so few things with the deck, but it's just such a huge blowout with Thromok it's hard to cut it.
I question how useful the +2/+0 is on Web. If I am attacking with the tokens I'm making, they're probably dying by blocks while pushing just some damage through. I'm not sure how much I like that? The haste is obviously amazing but I wonder if I'd rather just play Fervor instead. How much do you think the power boost matters in here?
1 Warstorm Surge
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Vicious Shadows
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Kazandu Tuskcaller
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Mogg Infestation
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Unfortunately I'm not a fan of the you mentioned because they are not creature spells so I can't use Pod, Survival, etc. The noncreature spells I do have, I don't even like :). One goal of mine is to reduce my dependence on non-creatures as much as possible.
One non-creature token maker I do like that gets put in and cut every now and then is Sprout Swarm. Instant speed, convoke, buyback... as long as you have a few tokens and some mana EoT this will just keep pumping them out. It's really great incremental advantage that basically has to be countered to slow down.
M13 actually gave us Fungal Sprouting, which is just a huge blowout with an active Thromok but honestly you are looking at 9 mana in one turn to make it reliable. It might be good enough for its synergy with the few devour guys in here (Thromok, Skullmulcher, Preyseizer Dragon) but many of those are so good on their own and one wrath answers the entire threat so I have been hesitant to just chuck it in there.
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Chancellor of the Forge
Elemental Mastery
Asceticism
Parallel Evolution
Saproling Symbiosis
Beastmaster Ascension
Ulasht, the Hate Seed
Phyrexian Altar/Ashnod's Altar
Chancellor of the Forge, Parallel Evolution, and Saproling Symbiosis can all be used to get very aggressive with tokens, often doubling your creatures right there and then.
Beastmaster turns your tokens into very viable threats and can surprise people as you drop it and swing with at least 7 tokens.
Asceticism is probably a must as it gives both Hexproof for your creatures and a way to regenerate during board sweepers.
Ulasht gives you another token generator, which may be slow depending on how often your board presence is big, but also can ping for some damage and can get a body on him.
Elemental Mastery is gorgeous as it now can turn Thromok into a Token factory himself, and you can probably guess the obscene amounts of tokens he can spew out.
Phyrexian Altar/Ashnod's Altar are both great sac outlets that can ramp you as well if needed. I would maybe not include both as normally you might only need one, but if you want the better chance to pull one of the other run them in tandem.
Cards I'm not too fond of in your current build:
Night Soil, Imperious Perfect - These feel a little slow and not as explosive.
Brittle Effigy - feels like this might not be as good if you get more aggressive, I'd put Helm of Possession here if Helm wasn't so useful long term and not a one-shot effect.
Preyseizer Dragon - feels a little slow and requires a good deal of tokens to become that threatening.
Mogg Infestation - I love this card, I really do; however, in token decks you normally want to hit yourself with it, and if the thought of doubling your creatures you currently have for 1/1 goblins with no buffs is a good play, I feel you need better creatures.
Long post, but just wanted to put a lot of thoughts out there. Seeing the list though gives me some new ideas for my Ulasht deck as well.
Horobi, Death's Wail
On the tuskcaller: I personally am a big fan of it, but it's not the fastest short of doubling season in play.
I play soul's fire as another fling, abet more easily stopped.
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Chancellor, Parallel Evolution and Saproling Symbiosis scare me because they are dead cards if I have no creatures, via wrath or Thromok feeding franzy or whatever. Chancellor is too much mana for the effect, unfortunately (the uber-deadly Vicious Shadows costs the same). Parallel Evolution is definitely out due to meta call because I'm not the only token deck at the table, even though I'm a sucker for flashback. Symbiosis seems like it's the best one to try because of the instant rider on it. That would make it very much worth it for me. I will try to get one. Thanks for turning me on to it.
Beastmaster Ascension is a phenomenal card and I think I might have taken it out to test something and forgot about it. It will absolutely go back in. I loaned the deck out once and without a snap Gisela tutoring (with the Mayael deck I was borrowing at the time) I was dead on the board to that with like 70 power coming at me :). I had been looking for one more pump/anthem effect that that is exactly what I wanted. It was right under my nose, of course.
Asceticism is quite good. What kept me from playing it initially is that I have a preference for token generators that you fire and forget, so keeping them from removal isn't a big priority, and also it doesn't grant the magic haste or trample that Thromok so desperately craves. Normally I'd say regenerate isn't that great but the ability to regen Thromok through a wrath, leaving players with no blockers, is essentially proactive Kamahl-style wrath protection and that should count for something. I'll keep it on the short list for now over, say, Swiftfoot Boots.
As for Ulasht, I used to have an Ulasht deck so this was an easy transition. Mana Echoes FTW :). He seems a little slow for me and is yet another card that needs to have an existing board state to make an impact so I find his use a bit questionable. I can't play too many cards that only work when you have creatures, so the ones I do play have to be awesome and not just utility guys like I feel Ulasht is.
Elemental Mastery seems like such 2-for-1 bait at first but the upside is glorious here (WHAT A MONSTROUS CREACHER! /diablojoke). Seems really good if I play enough hexproof. Maybe a batch swap with Asceticism down the road could make it more desirable. Unfortunately I have so few guys in the deck with a lot of power themselves that it can be tough to get any big benefit out of the card from anyone but Thromok, so I am a bit apprehensive for that reason too.
Ashnod's Altar is great with token mana sinks but unfortunately I don't have too many of those. One sac outlet I do love that I'm not playing at the moment is Spawning Pit. That's a great way to recover from a wrath for a sacrifice outlet, and it keeps cradle and Thromok ready. *Side note: How can I have a deck with tokens, Cradle, and no X spell to burn out my opponents? Need to find room for a Comet Storm in here*
On cuts, which I thank you much for because they are typically more useful to me than recommendations:
Night Soil is slow. It is, however, my only piece of grave hate, which is actually the more important function here. And it's super-oppressive grave hate too since the removal of the creatures is a cost that cannot be responded to. You cannot fight zombie tribal without grave hate, so I believe it has to stay unfortunately.
Imperious Perfect (and by extension, Kazandu Tuskcaller) are both slow. I could see cutting them both for some more explosive options. The problem it, what do I do for just two or three mana that is better than they are? Should I raise the curve to accommodate more powerful options? They are so cheap though- you just fire em off and they take no more than 1 mana to keep running. I am torn on these guys.
Preyseizer I have to disagree with you on how threatening he can be. With haste around, which is often, he needs only to eat 3 guys to become a 10/10 flyer that burns anything for 6 when he attacks. Haste just brings him to a whole new level of competence and since the deck is already packing plenty of haste for Thromok, he seems like a pretty good fit actually. Now, whether or not he's better than Beastmaster Ascension or whatever else, that is certainly up for debate.
Brittle Effigy is quite narrow and it was a meta call for a general I don't play against that much anymore. The best thing it can do now is kill a Gravecrawler for good and that's not enough for me. It will definitely come out.
Mogg Infestation: You make a really, really good point about this. I don't want to use it on opponents OR myself, do I? In fact, one of the decks I play against routinely is a Krenko deck whose pilot just might kiss me if I cast this on him. GONE.
You've inspired me. Changes incoming! How do these look?
1 Brittle Effigy
1 Mogg Infestation
1 Kazandu Tuskcaller
1 Tenza, Godo's Maul
1 Greater Good
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Beastmaster Ascension
1 Warstorm Surge
1 Saproling Symbiosis
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Asceticism
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Awakening Zone
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Thada Adel Stax WIP
These changes look good, aside from removing Yavimaya Elder, I feel that he is too good for just advantage overall, that I like him over something like Growth Spasm. Sure you don't get the land into play, but you get 2 lands to hand along with a draw if you use the ability.
As for the recommendations, I agree that the metas define how you play a lot, and in my Ulasht deck I can maintain tokens decently enough or be able to spew more out, including infiniting with Ulasht if need be. Elemental Mastery could be a 2for1, but don't forget you can place it on other creatures to simple make a few more tokens, placing this on a Dragonlair Spider could often be enough to give you enough tokens for Thromok as well. It has a few applications, but its definitely a card that could not work in some scenarios. The sac outlets are something to keep in mind though in case you run into tuck in your meta or bribery effects without Homeward Path around.
Overall I would commit hard to either setting up Thromok for wins, or doing overall token strategies. Because doing things like Electropotence/Warstorm Surge/Soul's Fire would help if you are planing on using Thromok to win, otherwise, token strategies with Thromok piloting would be good with Chancellor/Verdant Force/Verdeloth The Ancient.
Oh, and just for mention of Soul's Fire, Soul's Majesty can be a good draw power if you get it off. Even a Thromok for only 3 devour can make this very strong (or obscene with 5+) in line with Garruk Primal Hunter. And I also forgot about Mana Echoes in Ulasht, I'll have to put that back in.
Edit: Fresh Meat! This is the card I was straining myself to remember. This is definitely needed.
Horobi, Death's Wail
Other things you might consider for token generation is Master of the wild hunt and Howl of the Night Pack.
What about Mogg War Marshal? Same cost and effect as Dragon Fodder & Krenko's Command with added benefit of being Podable.
stuff
Sarkhan Vol
Solemn Simulacrum
Berserk
Mycoloth
Champion of Lambholt - this could be an all star since it's when a creature enters the battlefield versus being cast.
Myr Battlesphere
Winding Canyons
This is in addition to what I added above. Sneak Attack, Howl of the Wolf Pact, and Master of the Wild Hunt.
1) The tokens it creates are, of course, have synergy with Thromok.
2) If you're throwing Warstorm Surge into the deck, Warstorm Surge + Sekki, Seasons' Guide is a two card infinite damage combo. How it works is Sekki enters the battlefield, Warstorm Surge deals 8 damage to Sekki. 8 counters get removed, 8 tokens get created. Those tokens do 8 damage (1 each) to whatever target you want. Then you sacrifice them to reanimate Sekki. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Now, of course, whether or not you're looking to insert something that bonkers into your deck is, of course, your prerogative. However, the option is available.
GGG [Primer] Omnath, Big Green Beatstick Machine GGG
Good call. I think you are right on this one. It's not ramp but it's probably better, and I do love creature synergy.
The reason I don't do this is that I enjoy the versatility of going one way or the other. The deck is more fun for me that way too. If I focused on one or the other, you are right- the deck would have some greater reach and blowout potential. But I prefer to be able to win either way if necessary. Thromok and tokens are synergistic enough that it's not like deciding between aggro or control or anything that far apart.
It is a pretty decent wrath protection option but with so few instant-speed options in the deck you do have to work to keep the four mana open for this. It is pretty good with devour guys...
Sneak Attack is bananas and I do have one. My Riku deck plays a little similarly and it is one of the best cards in that deck. It does work very well with the fire-and-forget token makers like Deranged Hermit and friends. Maybe I'm afraid it'll be too good?
Master of the Wild Hunt I have tried and I just find him too slow. Sometimes I feel like I'm lacking some lower-end generation though and he goes back in. Oracle of Mul Daya's ramp I have found to be more useful. Howl of the Night Pack isn't good enough because I don't play a ton of basic lands in here.
This is a much better card for the deck than those sorceries. At one time I went looking for mine and I couldn't find it. It's no Nest Invader but it would come in right behind it.
Thanks for your suggestions!
Sarkhan is pretty good but I don't really feel like buying one right now. You can't have enough haste, and he lives through the board wipes that normally own tokens. Beserk is also super expensive :(.
Solemn is decent but I passed a point in my green deck construction where I decided I just didnt need him anymore. He is great value for 4 mana but he's no Oracle of Mul Daya diesel ramp engine and he doesn't make tokens, so he doesn't contribute much to the plan unfortunately except that eating him draws a card.
Mycoloth is really strong if people leave him alone but I find I rarely get to untap with him. He's so strong he can sometimes not even worth playing because he's too hard to protect. Great card though.
Champion of Lambholt is really good. I played him in sealed AVR on a 3-0-1 day (Tamiyo/Devastation Tide player forced a draw :-/) and any game where he wasn't killed on sight he just totally owned. I cut mine at one point though for testing because believe it or not he is actually kind of slow. He lets your army get through for damage BUT your army has to be big or it doesn't matter really. Then again, he lets Thromok also get though for damage but any old trample enabler would do the same thing. I am always looking for cheap creatures who make a serious impact though (and eat removal that would otherwise be for Thromok) so I'll get him out of my green cards again.
Myr Battlesphere fills a similar role to Hornet Queen and Avenger of Zendikar but is worse than both in this deck. It's a fine card though for anyone who needs a third 7-drop token guy.
And finally Winding Canyons is in fact very good, but I get antsy after I play more than X colorless lands and I'm sort of at my comfortable limit here. I could maybe sub out Buried Ruin instead, which I only really use to get Skullclamp back. That's not a bad idea actually.
Yep. Too good
My only issue with Sekki is that I don't get the tokens unless I somehow get it to take damage. I don't have too many sources of direct damage (and I'm sure my opponents couldn't wait to attack into him hahahaha), so I'm afraid for 8 mana he'd be kind of a wash here. Thanks for the suggestion though- I don't play with Warstorm Surge a lot so I was unaware of the combo. Also worth noting is how quickly Sekki gets out of hand with Doubling Season...
OUT: Growth Spasm, Buried Ruin
IN: Yavimaya Elder, Winding Canyons
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
Imperious Perfect: This has been mentioned before and I saw your comment on it. What if perhaps you didn't use this slot to generate tokens, and instead added something with a CIP effect that let you get one of your token producers? Goblin Matron for example gets you Siege-Gang in hand and is another creature you can devour. Vithian Renegades can destroy someone's sol ring! I had a few other options lower and higher on my curve, but I've yet to test my deck to really want to recommend them
Citanul Hierophants: I feel like this guy lends himself to really explosive giant mana plays, but I don't see a ton of those. Plus your big mana explosive plays are going to require haste. Seems unexciting to me, I'd rather just get a land or two.
Otherwise, I like your list!
I thought I had answered this earlier, but must not have put it through. Sorry about that.
Before I get back to it, let me toss one on the pile for Winding Canyons: it is one of my favorite lands in this format, especially for creature-based decks.
While colorless lands tend to hurt your color base a bit, I would actually not be too worried about it if I were you. The fact is, since you're playing green, most of your lands should be coming out due to your land search effects; this means that you'll artificially have a larger percentage of colored lands out in play compared to your deck construction percentages.
I actually run(ran) 10 colorless lands in Cromat, on top of 6 fetch lands, and a Maze of Ith. That's 17 lands that don't tap for color (or even mana) out of 43, and with minor exceptions (Overbeing of Myth), I rarely have mana issues in the deck. I don't even run that much in the way of land search either. If you don't count the sac lands (since they get real mana), then its an 11 out of 37 ratio, in a 5c deck.
Now, on to the response:
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I can concede the points on the stealy effects, primarily due to Bringer of the Red Dawn and Dominus of Fealty unfortunately being off color. However, I would not put Conquering Masticore or Zealous Consripts off the radar either. While it would be prohibitive to cast them and Om-nom on the same turn, abuse with blink effects like Voyager Staff or Conjurer's Closet can lead to interesting situations. Sculpting Steel on a Closet with either out is plain stupid as well.
Reforge to me is a very fairly costed Wheel. You have a very aggressive curve (or I seem to have thought you did?), so I feel that promoting that and taking advantage of emptying your hand quickly into a wheel would be very powerful. Wheel/Reforge are two of the best draw effects that you can get in red, and frankly, I feel two of the best in the entire game. Few other cards give you such a high card/mana ratio.
In the web of war is simply amazing. Aside from people who happen to be open, the 2 extra damage will often be tripling the damage your fresh tokens do. Who cares if a few die? Tokens are cheap, expendable, and replaceable. Non-token decks will only have a few blockers at best, you might lose a token to a Titan, but unless their other blockers have greater than 3 toughness, they'll have to lose good creatures to stop your onslaught. Naturally, this works better the more creatures you can put out each turn. This is also aside from the synergy with Pandemonium and Warstorm Surge, of course. It may be a bit of a meta call, but I urge you to try it out.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Thanks! Well I already play Fierce Empath, so he was the first thing I thought of. Mwonvuli Beast Tracker would get me Dragonlair Spider, but it doesn't draw me the card and I hate that. Goblin Matron is a good choice as it also gets Beetleback Chief as well as SGC. I think you have hit on something very important here! I'll keep looking for cards that do this. Another cute one I've played in the past is Gamekeeper. It's random, but who cares? Man what I wouldn't do for an Imperial Recruiter It's time for a reprint of that guy a la X-D the One-Eyed.
As for heirophants- This guy is has been really really good for me. I frequently pod into it off a 3-drop and use the mana to play something gamechanging. I can't say its the perfect card but the mana does help and it has led to enough blowouts that it's earned his place for now. I've actually considered adding an X-spell here to utilize the mana from these guys and Cradle and Comet Storm is high on my list of cards to get back in here sometime.
I feel like the things needed for steal support would water down the deck, since they're only really synergistic with devour and the occasional sac outlet in this case. Zealous Conscripts is obviously a good enough card on his own to warrant consideration, it's just that the 5-drop spot on my curve is super tight and I am afraid of gumming it up, even with such a good pod target. On the other hand, blinky things like the closet could be huge here. Voyager Staff is a pet card of mine as well but I'm afraid it's a big nonbo with Thromok so it is less useful as a one-shot effect.
I am going ahead and trying out Reforge in addition to the wheel. I love casting Wheel of Fortune in this deck so another one can't really hurt too much. Snap-miracling it on a draw seems easy enough.
For ItWoW I just see that 5 mana cost and hold my breath. I do want to try it! I'd have to cut something expensive to make room for it and looking at the list other than something like Duplicant or Urabrask, both of which I love hitting with pod, I'm not sure what I would cut. I guess Spike Weaver is also a possibility too but I love having a hedge against Insurrection and other token swarms. Maybe it's better than Asceticism, allowing me to play more aggressively? Actually Web is so much better with my tokens than Asceticism I wonder if it's not even close. What do you guys think?
1 In the Web of War
1 Goblin Matron (and other ETB tutors)
1 Asceticism
1 Urabrask
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Broken Fall and Molting Skin are criminally underused. I've used them to great effect in Kresh. Often I'm happier to see them as opposed to Asceticism since they can protect themselves.
stuff
Is there a reason for Spike Weaver other than the fog ability? If he's just there as a 4 drop for Pod then I wonder if Yeva, Nature's Herald would be a better choice.
Nope. It's sketchy, I know. I am not crazy about the spot either. He has saved me once or twice though so I am a little irrationally attached to the idea of a mini fog machine. Yeva sounds pretty interesting in its place as her presence means I can threaten to flash in blockers, and it's another way for Thromok to get pseudo haste. I like utility cards to be more than one-trick ponies and Yeva definitely fits the bill for that.
Thanks for the idea.
Also kind of dig those regenerate enchants. I just love that they can protect themselves. I had never seen them before until they were brought up here.
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP