Psychatog: Hmmm. She does allow him to pump on top of what ever I exile out of bin, but this deck doesn't really beat. I don't expect to swing anyone down ftw.
Black Sun's Zenith: Possible include. I already have 3 sweepers, 10 spells that can spot remove creatures, 7 forms of counterspell, and multiple avenues to recur spells and tutor for answers. What could this replace?
Grim + Power = $$$
Blue Sun's Zenith: x3 blues in casting cost makes me a little nervous, and thus I sorta question it's value as a draw outside of the combo. I usually need a few blue left open to either counter or at least bluff that I'm holding a counter. I'll have to test it to see if I like seeing it come up..
After scrolling through all the elves, I removed Eyeblight's Ending. It doesn't hit Momir Vig, Mayael, Nath, Glissa, Edric, Rhys, Savra, Oracle of Mul Daya, Fauna Shaman, Bloom Tender.. Replaced with Pongify.
Reevaluating Sheoldred and Skithiryx due to low creature count and absence of proliferate.
Looking into Mystic Snake for synergy with x4 spells that reanimate and x2 spells that recur to hand.
Considering Visara the Dreadful or Avatar of Woe for synergy with Rings of Brighthearth. Concerned about casting costs and curve though.
Also considering investing in Power Artifact for redundancy with infinite mana combo. Feels like a dead draw outside of combo though. Suggestions?
After scrolling through all the elves, I removed Eyeblight's Ending. It doesn't hit Momir Vig, Mayael, Nath, Glissa, Edric, Rhys, Savra, Oracle of Mul Daya, Fauna Shaman, Bloom Tender.. Replaced with Pongify.
Pongify is great, I am sure that you will enjoy it. If you want even more information on card choices I would take a look at my primer or Wildfire's thread.
Reevaluating Sheoldred and Skithiryx due to low creature count and absence of proliferate.
I don't run either because they have little to no immediate impact on the board. This deck doesn't really need splashy creatures. It thrives on running multiple counters and removal effects because the numerous draw engines allow you to refill your hand.
Looking into Mystic Snake for synergy with x4 spells that reanimate and x2 spells that recur to hand.
Mystic Snake is great. Has awesome synergy with Crystal Shard. Very good if you want to do an ETB package with your deck.
Considering Visara the Dreadful or Avatar of Woe for synergy with Rings of Brighthearth. Concerned about casting costs and curve though.
Seems too expensive. I found that I prefer simple spot removal to recurring removal effects.
Also considering investing in Power Artifact for redundancy with infinite mana combo. Feels like a dead draw outside of combo though. Suggestions?
I think you should either focus on the infinite mana win or the mill win. You don't really need both. Again, Damia shines as a control general because she allows you to win almost every attrition war through card advantage. I would cut one or the other combo to put in:
Skyshroud Claim - Is just an auto-include in any deck running green. Two lands with no tempo loss is awesome.
Pongify is great, I am sure that you will enjoy it. If you want even more information on card choices I would take a look at my primer or Wildfire's thread.
Nice links! Thanks!
I don't run either because they have little to no immediate impact on the board. This deck doesn't really need splashy creatures. It thrives on running multiple counters and removal effects because the numerous draw engines allow you to refill your hand.
Agreed. They are splashy indeed and hard to cut as my two favorite pets, but they just don't belong here. I was considering fitting in Spearbreaker Behemoth to support them, but eh..
Mystic Snake is great. Has awesome synergy with Crystal Shard. Very good if you want to do an ETB package with your deck.
I'm looking at Crystal Shard + Eternal Witness + Time Warp as a 3rd combo wincon. Then I will definitely get Mystic Snake going. Until then, it actually doesn't seem to go too well with the reanimation - Profane Command, Beacon of Unrest, Animate Dead, and Necromancy are all sorcery speed.
As for an ETB package, I sorta wanted to avoid it since I am running Rings. I'm torn between "recurring etb" and "doubled activated abilities".
If I go with more ETB like Mulldrifter, Shriekmaw and Rune-Scarred Demon, it feels like I am increasing the likelihood of making Rings a dead draw. I know impacting the board state is a key point when selecting spells, but since this deck is primarily reactive does it matter as much?
Again, I am torn..
Seems too expensive. I found that I prefer simple spot removal to recurring removal effects.
Yeah. Again I may be the victim to the allure of splashy pets. Trying to make Rings more useful outside the combo.
I think you should either focus on the infinite mana win or the mill win. You don't really need both.
Hmmm. Spin Into Myth, Spell Crumple, and Hinder are great spells on their own and fit the theme of the deck - so dedicating a slot to Tunnel Vision not only allows me to potentially knock the biggest threat out of the game, but powers Geth, Wrexy, and the x4 reanimtion spells if used to just mill someone.
The infinite mana combo actually feels weaker due to Rings and Exsanguinate not really doing much on their own at all. This is the combo that kills the table though, so hmmm..
Again, Damia shines as a control general because she allows you to win almost every attrition war through card advantage. I would cut one or the other combo to put in:
Skyshroud Claim - Is just an auto-include in any deck running green. Two lands with no tempo loss is awesome.
Hunting Wilds - If you want even more ramp these are good options as well.
More ramp huh? I have a Skyshroud Claim but not the uber expensive lands it fetches. I will definitely need to play test more. It feels like I already have excessive acceleration for a deck with such a low curve..
I am glad you appreciate the feedback, sometimes I wonder if it simply comes off as "You should really just play my deck". However I have a good deal of success with my deck in a competitive meta, so I consider it decently constructed and worthy of consideration.
Just some general notes:
What exactly do you have the reanimation package for? You don't seem to want to put creatures into your own graveyard and you can't always count on your opponents having something worth reanimating. Part of playing a good control deck is having a proactive strategy that has pieces that are unconditionally good. Reanimation spells are going to have wildly varying value and that is not what you want sitting in your hand when the guy across from you is going infinite. This might be a guiding principle for why people say not to play win-more cards. This is especially important in a control/good stuff build because you aren't really trying to win in a particular way. A combo deck wants to hit its combo as quickly and reliable as possible and an aggro deck just wants to punch you. A control deck wants to stay alive. There isn't really a perfect way to "stay alive". It generally means that you have answers for relevant threats and you are able to stabilize and interact with the board in such a way that you aren't overwhelmed and lose. This is where card quality becomes increasingly important. Because you aren't working toward a set goal, you need to have flexible spells or things that generate card advantage in order to win the slow war against your opponents. Having cards that are subpar or are only situationally good means that you won't have that relevant answer when you need it.
In general more lands/more fixing seems necessary. I don't know if you have trouble producing the colors that you need but without the expensive mana base you have to look for other ways to fix your mana. Any ramp spell also doubles as a way to fix your mana. Artifacts like Coalition Relic, Darksteel Ingot, and the new M12 artifact could all warrant consideration.
I think the infinite mana win condition can be pared down to fewer pieces. In a deck like this you are better off dedicating yourself to controlling the game and eventually going for a combo win than dedicating yourself to combo. If you really want to dedicate yourself to combo you should play a general/color shard that is better suited to it. Try cutting extra pieces so that you can run more card draw, tutors, removal, and counter magic.
On that note, play more counters. Counters are not degenerate or griefer. They have a legitimate place in EDH and can be used to make the game more fair, not less. It was put nicely by Daemion here:
Many players don't like to play against hardcontrol decks, but i think our decks can be a gain for most playgroups. Sure, you play your Damia pile for the purpose of winning, but you have very much interactions with other players and you don't play just for the win like a combo player, who only intent to develop and protect his winning combo.
I suggest this philosophy: Think about Damia as a tough and smart police woman! It's possible to ingratiate yourself with other players, for example by preventing stuff like Armageddon or by destroying hated permanents. In a game, where you achieve success with your efforts and you are not recognized as the egocentric comboplayer, you have the possibility to survive long enough to overwhelm the remaining players.
What exactly do you have the reanimation package for? You don't seem to want to put creatures into your own graveyard and you can't always count on your opponents having something worth reanimating. Part of playing a good control deck is having a proactive strategy that has pieces that are unconditionally good. Reanimation spells are going to have wildly varying value and that is not what you want sitting in your hand when the guy across from you is going infinite. This might be a guiding principle for why people say not to play win-more cards. This is especially important in a control/good stuff build because you aren't really trying to win in a particular way.
There are x3 draw/filter cards that dump spells into the GY for recursion. There are also x4 spells that spot remove creatures, x4 spells that sweep all creatures, x2 spells that force discard, and x3 spells that counter a spell into the yard. That's x12 spells that will in all likelihood load the bins with great creatures to reanimate.
I also love the fact that the value of the reanimation spells will "wildly vary". As for the guy sitting across from me "going infinite", that's what instant speed disruption is for. Seems like you said it yourself when you stated, "because you aren't really trying to win in a particular way". This is what reanimation is all about. It occurs to me that if my method is to control the board state until I am ready to win, being able to utilize the resources in my opponent's GY to do things not incorporated into my own build seems ideal - it allows me to capitalize on unforeseen circumstances and cast spells that potentially alter the game in my favor that I may not have had access to otherwise. I love the x-factor value of reanimation spells. Maybe that's just because I started out as a reanimate player though and have the mindset.
In general more lands/more fixing seems necessary. I don't know if you have trouble producing the colors that you need but without the expensive mana base you have to look for other ways to fix your mana. Any ramp spell also doubles as a way to fix your mana. Artifacts like Coalition Relic, Darksteel Ingot, and the new M12 artifact could all warrant consideration.
Moar ramp even with a low curve huh? I could see that. I'll try it out..
I think the infinite mana win condition can be pared down to fewer pieces. In a deck like this you are better off dedicating yourself to controlling the game and eventually going for a combo win than dedicating yourself to combo. If you really want to dedicate yourself to combo you should play a general/color shard that is better suited to it. Try cutting extra pieces so that you can run more card draw, tutors, removal, and counter magic.
Hmmm. Which ones? Outside the infi mana combo:
Stroke of Genius draws me cards
Profane Command removes, reanimates, gets Wrexy through
Drana removes indestructible creatures and can pump
Exsanguinate helps recover from near lethal beater damage
Of the four, Exsanguinate appears the weakest on it's own but is the strongest of the grouping in terms of the combo. My first thought is to trim from elsewhere before I lose any of these. Skittles and Sheoldred are likely my first two spots to vacate..
On that note, play more counters. Counters are not degenerate or griefer. They have a legitimate place in EDH and can be used to make the game more fair, not less. It was put nicely by Daemion here:
ETB mass bounce supported by filter-draw + reanimate spells makes alot more sense in this build.
Still looking for replacement for Sheoldred. Mystic Snake is top candidate, but without Crystal Shard infinite turn combo in build the countering snake feels incomplete. With Eternal Witness already on the roster, I might incorporate Shard and Time Warp. Need to clear x2 slots to do this though..
Agreed with love_blanket that this build was over-loaded with reanimation spells so I cut Necromancy. Still have Geth, Profane Command, Beacon of Unrest, and Animate Dead. Sweepers are key here, so I added Oblivion Stone.
Monomania was replaced with Oracle of Mul Daya for more ramp. Monomania felt redundant with Mind Twist already in there and I'm a huge fan of Oracle's ability.
Sheoldred replaced with Rune-Scarred Demon. Tutoring on a 6/6 flyer is just too good.
They just don't support the control/combo nature of this deck. I will still play them in kitchen table games for their flavor and splashiness, but when it comes to league play they have been replaced with Dissipate and Faerie Trickery. The entire motive of this build is to control the board state in order to keep things balanced, stay alive, and eventually combo out. Geth and Wrexy do not help achieve this.
Other notable changes include:
-Life's Finale (6 sweepers is overkill, plus this was included to have synergy with reanimation spells like Geth, Necromancy and Animate Dead which have all been cut.)
-Animate Dead
- x1 Forest
*Beacon of Unrest and Profane Command are plenty sufficient reanimate spells should I see a creature in a bin I want. Actually considering turning Beacon into Reanimate
+Mystic Snake
+Pongify (Pong!!!)
+Muddle the Mixture (In addition to being a counter, Muddle tutors for Library, Vault, Tribe Elder, Greaves, Twincast, D Tutor, and most importantly my kill spell Exsanguinate. This should have been a no-brainer from the start.)
Only changes that are sure to come yet are:
1) Better lands (because they're faster)
2) Primeval Titan (because he's the best creature EVER printed. Sorry Consecrated Sphinx.)
3) Grim Monolith (because redundancy with mana reflection for the combo seems good. This would give me a third avenue to achieve infinite, and a backup plan should Basalt get RFG'd - Also considering Power Artifact which would increase the avenues to x5. It's just so useless outside the combo. At least the Rings double Liliana, Drana, and crack lands..)
^ That said, Does this build really need x5 ways to produce infinite colorless mana? If so, since T&N and Mana Reflection are already in the build, does the Vorinclex and Palinchron version of the combo warrant inclusion too? This would increase the infinite combo avenues to x8, which feels like total overkill in a deck with 7 tutors..
Admire you still running Drana for a infinite win? I think oona, queen of the fae would be better here.
No chance lol. Green gives access to:
A) ramping spells which make the deck faster
B) more control which gives the deck a wider range to shape the game state
C) a second way for Basalt to go infinite with Mana Reflection
D) regrowth spells to recover lost combo pieces or bombs
E) an entwined T&N that is win
No chance lol. Green gives access to:
A) ramping spells which make the deck faster
B) more control which gives the deck a wider range to shape the game state
C) a second way for Basalt to go infinite with Mana Reflection
D) regrowth spells to recover lost combo pieces or bombs
E) an entwined T&N that is win
I think nutterbutter meant as your win condition for having infinite mana, not as a general. You need to attack for Drana to work, but you can do Oona as soon as you play her.
Ah.
I was weighing the two at one point but went with Drana.
My thought is that Drana is more valuable outside the combo as she can be used to remove indestructible creatures, her ability doubles with Rings, and can practically neuter the battlefield with Seedborn Muse in play.
Honestly, indestructible creatures haven't been an issue yet with All is Dust, Evacuation, K Leviathan, Dismember, Capsize, and Spin Into Myth in the build. In the late game opponents swing like crazy at me, so I sweep so often that even my own creatures don't stick for long. She's on the short list for cutting actually.
As for the fact that Oona can activate the turn she comes out - I never lay out both Basalt and Rings at the same time until I'm ready to activate and win; just one of them. The mana cost to lay out one of the two artifacts to assemble, cast Oona, activate the Monolith, and then activate Oona would be 12 + 1 more for each opponent at the table. Sorta steep.
In a scenerio where I attempted to swing someone out with Drana, (which hasn't come up yet), I would cast her, pass turn, protect her with counters, then activate my combo next turn. Greaves don't help much because it's still too mana intensive to make everything happen unless I've got an obscene amount of mana. Whether it's Drana or Oona it's a clunky way to win. In all my wins, Tunnel Vision knocks the most troublesome opponent out of the game early if necessary and then Exsanguinate kills the table later on.
Seems like you're running a highly reactive deck, and these cards let you essentially play NOTHING on your turn to hold all mana open for counterspells, and then drop a whole bunch if there's nothing worth hitting. You can still play all of your permanents but the classic, "How much should I leave open for answers?" question becomes a non-issue.
I strongly feel that permission-heavy combo decks in EDH can really only benefit from having one in their deck.
Seems like you're running a highly reactive deck, and these cards let you essentially play NOTHING on your turn to hold all mana open for counterspells, and then drop a whole bunch if there's nothing worth hitting. You can still play all of your permanents but the classic, "How much should I leave open for answers?" question becomes a non-issue.
I strongly feel that permission-heavy combo decks in EDH can really only benefit from having one in their deck.
That's a really interesting prospect. I had passed on these along time ago, thinking that leaving mana open only for counter spells / instant speed spot removal and occasionally Evacuation or Time Stop was sufficient.
I really like making the question "How much should I leave open for answers?" a non-issue. Dropping combo pieces before turn is passed to me is even more attractive. T&N is primary, but sometimes Basalt and Palinchron have to drop on a different turn from Mana Reflection or Rings of Brighthearth. Showing half an infinite combo on the table in a meta of savvy players is always bad.
The only thing I would be concerned about though is having one more permanent in play to protect - the fewer the better, especially when I am regularly sweeping. Vedalken Orrery might work though as it survives All is Dust and can be recovered with Academy Ruins.
I'll have to think this over..
Very true - though, from my experience, many other players are hesitant to spend removal on an Orrery or Leyline. I'm sure it varies wildly from playgroup to playgroup, but at least for me, my friends tend to focus on immediate, direct threats (typically draw engines like Rhystic Study, abusable removal such as Aura Shards, or just combo pieces).
These permanents fall into that grey area where most players truly don't understand just how important they really are for a blue player. Their thought process is typically, "Well, it's not really hurting me, not providing him with more threats or card advantage, and he could still play his stuff anyway even if he didn't have it." People tend to gloss over the fact that their power lies in their ability to enable, and because this is often such a nebulous concept, they elect not to touch them. Even if an Orrery lets you land a combo piece the End-Step before you win, most people look at the combo piece as the problem and forget the Orrery is what got you there.... I've even found myself thinking this at times.
I just decided to make a Damia EDH deck. My primary impetus for doing so stemmed from wanting to cast nearly everything at instant speed with Vedalken Orrery, Leyline of Anticipation, and Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir. I couldn't decide what colors or general I wanted to play, I knew that I just wanted to play with these spells along with a recur theme using Yawgmoth's Will and Snapcaster Mage. I finally set my sights on using Damia. Let me know how including the Orrery or Leyline goes for you, Aeon-Phoenix. I'm still in the gathering cards stage. If you test either of these cards out, please let me know how it went.
I just decided to make a Damia EDH deck. My primary impetus for doing so stemmed from wanting to cast nearly everything at instant speed with Vedalken Orrery, Leyline of Anticipation, and Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir. I couldn't decide what colors or general I wanted to play, I knew that I just wanted to play with these spells along with a recur theme using Yawgmoth's Will and Snapcaster Mage. I finally set my sights on using Damia. Let me know how including the Orrery or Leyline goes for you, Aeon-Phoenix. I'm still in the gathering cards stage. If you test either of these cards out, please let me know how it went.
Very cool. I'm going to retire about 6 cards that don't serve much purpose beyond going infinite and replace them with versatile/value spells like Time Warp and Bribery.. I will be testing Orrery and Leyline in this version too.
I do like the idea of having no combo to assemble and no definitive wincon. It makes piloting the deck more challenging and the end game a mystery.
Only play this deck when your sole intention is to win though. As I learned this weekend, an Evacuation + Eternal Witness loop will do little more than frustrate and irritate a casual play group..
Very cool. I'm going to retire about 6 cards that don't serve much purpose beyond going infinite and replace them with versatile/value spells like Time Warp and Bribery.. I will be testing Orrery and Leyline in this version too.
I do like the idea of having no combo to assemble and no definitive wincon. It makes piloting the deck more challenging and the end game a mystery.
Only play this deck when your sole intention is to win though. As I learned this weekend, an Evacuation + Eternal Witness loop will do little more than frustrate and irritate a casual play group..
Lol, I bet it does.
No, I usually don't play control. All of my EDH decks are multi-player casual fun decks. But I've got a brother who runs an Intet deck that is asking to be beat at its own game. I think Damia is the answer. Of course, it's going to take me a while to get all the pieces. Especially the dual lands. I may have to part with some cards from my "keep" binder.
Finally sub'd out the infinite mana package, (moved to the spoiler). It was strong and I won with it often, but I sorta got tired of just sitting back watching everyone interact, only casting answers when I needed to, and then combo'n out unexpectedly.
I added spells that give me options to interact throughout the course of the game. There's no clearly defined win-con anymore, but that's cool because I like the challenge of piloting this build to an unpredictable path to victory.
Changes:
-Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
-Palinchron
-Basalt Monolith
-Rings of Brighthearth
-Mana Reflection
-Exsanguinate
-Profane Command
-Oona, Queen of the Fae
-Ambassador Laquatus
-Brainstorm
+Desertion
+Rite of Replication
+Reins of Power
+Bribery
+Defense of the Heart
+Future Sight
+Vedalken Orrery
+Mirari
+Mindslaver
+Mimic Vat
That's a really interesting prospect. I had passed on these along time ago, thinking that leaving mana open only for counter spells / instant speed spot removal and occasionally Evacuation or Time Stop was sufficient.
I really like making the question "How much should I leave open for answers?" a non-issue. Dropping combo pieces before turn is passed to me is even more attractive. T&N is primary, but sometimes Basalt and Palinchron have to drop on a different turn from Mana Reflection or Rings of Brighthearth. Showing half an infinite combo on the table in a meta of savvy players is always bad.
The only thing I would be concerned about though is having one more permanent in play to protect - the fewer the better, especially when I am regularly sweeping. Vedalken Orrery might work though as it survives All is Dust and can be recovered with Academy Ruins.
I'll have to think this over..
All is dust is not an artifact card and cannot be returned with ruins
Vedalken Orrery survives All is Dust and [Vedalken Orrery] can be recovered with Academy Runes.
(It can also be put back into play with Beacon of Unrest)
*All is Dust is recovered/recurred by Snapcaster, YagWill, Regrowth, and E Witness
1 Damia, Sage of Stone
Combo
1 Tooth and Nail
1 Palinchron
1 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Capsize
1 Stroke of Genius
Creature
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Gilded Drake
Instant
1 Pact of Negation
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Pongify
1 Noxious Revival
1 Nature's Claim
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Lim-Dûl's Vault
1 Summer Bloom
1 Shred Memory
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Arcane Denial
1 Remand
1 Trickbind
1 Twincast
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Hinder
1 Sudden Spoiling
1 Beast Within
1 Krosan Grip
1 Putrefy
1 Forbid
1 Voidslime
1 Time Warp
1 Evacuation
1 Desertion
1 Reanimate
1 Regrowth
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Nature's Lore
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Barter In Blood
1 Damnation
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Devastation Tide
1 Bribery
1 All is Dust
1 Temporal Mastery
Enchantment
1 Mystic Remora
1 Sylvan Library
1 Standstill
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Rhystic Study
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Necropotence
Artifact
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mind's Eye
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
Shock (3)
1 Breeding Pool
1 Watery Grave
1 Overgrown Tomb
Fetch (3)
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Polluted Delta
Filter (3)
1 Flooded Grove
1 Twilight Mire
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Yavimaya Coast
1 Underground River
1 Llanowar Wastes
New Duals (3)
1 Woodland Cemetery
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Drowned Catacomb
Rainbow (4)
1 Command Tower
1 Reflecting Pool
1 City of Brass
1 Exotic Orchard
1 Alchemist's Refuge
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Strip Mine
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Halimar Depths
1 Tolaria West
Lands: Basic (6)
4 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 vs 1 French List
Cut
-Rhystic Study
-Mind's Eye
-Mystic Remora
Banned
-Sol Ring
-Mana Vault
-Necropotence
-Vampiric Tutor
-Strip Mine
Counters
+Delay
+Perplex
+Counterspell
+Mana Leak
+Spell Crumple
+Faerie Trickery
Other
+Impulse
+Tectonic Edge
3 Pillar of Flame
2 Rakdos's Return
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Dreadbore
4 Mutilate
1 Devil's Play
Instant (3)
3 Searing Spear
Creatures (9)
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Olivia Voldaren
2 Desecration Demon
4 Rakdos Keyrune
2 Staff of Nin
Enchantment (2)
2 Demonic Rising
Lands (24)
13 swamps
3 mountains
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
3 Duress
2 Slaughter Games
3 Rolling Temblor
2 Rakdos Charm
1 Dreadbore
2 Sign In Blood
2 Chandra, the Firebrand
3 Duress
2 Sign In Blood
2 Dreadbore
4 Mutilate
Instant (12)
3 Tragic Slip
4 Victim of Night
3 Searing Spear
2 Devour Flesh
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Olivia Voldaren
Artifact (5)
2 Staff of Nin
3 Rakdos Keyrune
Lands (25)
14 swamps
3 mountains
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
2 Rakdos's Return
2 Appetite for Brains
3 Slaughter Games
1 Dreadbore
1 Rise from the Grave
2 Rakdos Charm
2 Rolling Tremblor
1 Devil's Play
1 Curse of Death's Hold
2 Dreadbore
4 Lingering Souls
4 Mutilate
2 Terminus
2 Rakdos's Return
2 Faith's Shield
2 Aurelia's Fury
2 Searing Spear
4 Victim of Night
Creatures (8)
4 Crypt Ghast
4 Master of Cruelties
4 Liliana of the Dark Realms
Lands (24)
4 Blood Crypt
4 Godless Shrine
4 Dragonskull Summit
9 swamps
3 Plains
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
Black Sun's Zenith is too good to ignore.
If you're going to go with that infinite mana combo, add in Grim Monolith and Power Artifact, too. Oh, and Blue Sun's Zenith.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Psychatog: Hmmm. She does allow him to pump on top of what ever I exile out of bin, but this deck doesn't really beat. I don't expect to swing anyone down ftw.
Black Sun's Zenith: Possible include. I already have 3 sweepers, 10 spells that can spot remove creatures, 7 forms of counterspell, and multiple avenues to recur spells and tutor for answers. What could this replace?
Grim + Power = $$$
Blue Sun's Zenith: x3 blues in casting cost makes me a little nervous, and thus I sorta question it's value as a draw outside of the combo. I usually need a few blue left open to either counter or at least bluff that I'm holding a counter. I'll have to test it to see if I like seeing it come up..
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
Reevaluating Sheoldred and Skithiryx due to low creature count and absence of proliferate.
Looking into Mystic Snake for synergy with x4 spells that reanimate and x2 spells that recur to hand.
Considering Visara the Dreadful or Avatar of Woe for synergy with Rings of Brighthearth. Concerned about casting costs and curve though.
Also considering investing in Power Artifact for redundancy with infinite mana combo. Feels like a dead draw outside of combo though. Suggestions?
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Pongify is great, I am sure that you will enjoy it. If you want even more information on card choices I would take a look at my primer or Wildfire's thread.
I don't run either because they have little to no immediate impact on the board. This deck doesn't really need splashy creatures. It thrives on running multiple counters and removal effects because the numerous draw engines allow you to refill your hand.
Mystic Snake is great. Has awesome synergy with Crystal Shard. Very good if you want to do an ETB package with your deck.
Seems too expensive. I found that I prefer simple spot removal to recurring removal effects.
I think you should either focus on the infinite mana win or the mill win. You don't really need both. Again, Damia shines as a control general because she allows you to win almost every attrition war through card advantage. I would cut one or the other combo to put in:
Skyshroud Claim - Is just an auto-include in any deck running green. Two lands with no tempo loss is awesome.
Nature's Lore/Farseek/Rampant Growth - Two mana ramp/fixing is deceptively important for the deck.
Hunting Wilds - If you want even more ramp these are good options as well.
Nice links! Thanks!
Agreed. They are splashy indeed and hard to cut as my two favorite pets, but they just don't belong here. I was considering fitting in Spearbreaker Behemoth to support them, but eh..
I'm looking at Crystal Shard + Eternal Witness + Time Warp as a 3rd combo wincon. Then I will definitely get Mystic Snake going. Until then, it actually doesn't seem to go too well with the reanimation - Profane Command, Beacon of Unrest, Animate Dead, and Necromancy are all sorcery speed.
As for an ETB package, I sorta wanted to avoid it since I am running Rings. I'm torn between "recurring etb" and "doubled activated abilities".
If I go with more ETB like Mulldrifter, Shriekmaw and Rune-Scarred Demon, it feels like I am increasing the likelihood of making Rings a dead draw. I know impacting the board state is a key point when selecting spells, but since this deck is primarily reactive does it matter as much?
Again, I am torn..
Yeah. Again I may be the victim to the allure of splashy pets. Trying to make Rings more useful outside the combo.
Hmmm. Spin Into Myth, Spell Crumple, and Hinder are great spells on their own and fit the theme of the deck - so dedicating a slot to Tunnel Vision not only allows me to potentially knock the biggest threat out of the game, but powers Geth, Wrexy, and the x4 reanimtion spells if used to just mill someone.
The infinite mana combo actually feels weaker due to Rings and Exsanguinate not really doing much on their own at all. This is the combo that kills the table though, so hmmm..
More ramp huh? I have a Skyshroud Claim but not the uber expensive lands it fetches. I will definitely need to play test more. It feels like I already have excessive acceleration for a deck with such a low curve..
Thanks for all the input!
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Just some general notes:
There are x3 draw/filter cards that dump spells into the GY for recursion. There are also x4 spells that spot remove creatures, x4 spells that sweep all creatures, x2 spells that force discard, and x3 spells that counter a spell into the yard. That's x12 spells that will in all likelihood load the bins with great creatures to reanimate.
I also love the fact that the value of the reanimation spells will "wildly vary". As for the guy sitting across from me "going infinite", that's what instant speed disruption is for. Seems like you said it yourself when you stated, "because you aren't really trying to win in a particular way". This is what reanimation is all about. It occurs to me that if my method is to control the board state until I am ready to win, being able to utilize the resources in my opponent's GY to do things not incorporated into my own build seems ideal - it allows me to capitalize on unforeseen circumstances and cast spells that potentially alter the game in my favor that I may not have had access to otherwise. I love the x-factor value of reanimation spells. Maybe that's just because I started out as a reanimate player though and have the mindset.
Moar ramp even with a low curve huh? I could see that. I'll try it out..
Hmmm. Which ones? Outside the infi mana combo:
Stroke of Genius draws me cards
Profane Command removes, reanimates, gets Wrexy through
Drana removes indestructible creatures and can pump
Exsanguinate helps recover from near lethal beater damage
Of the four, Exsanguinate appears the weakest on it's own but is the strongest of the grouping in terms of the combo. My first thought is to trim from elsewhere before I lose any of these. Skittles and Sheoldred are likely my first two spots to vacate..
Interesting. I never saw it that way
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ETB mass bounce supported by filter-draw + reanimate spells makes alot more sense in this build.
Still looking for replacement for Sheoldred. Mystic Snake is top candidate, but without Crystal Shard infinite turn combo in build the countering snake feels incomplete. With Eternal Witness already on the roster, I might incorporate Shard and Time Warp. Need to clear x2 slots to do this though..
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-Monomania
-Sheoldred, Whispering One
+Oblivion Stone
+Oracle of Mul Daya
+Rune-Scarred Demon
Agreed with love_blanket that this build was over-loaded with reanimation spells so I cut Necromancy. Still have Geth, Profane Command, Beacon of Unrest, and Animate Dead. Sweepers are key here, so I added Oblivion Stone.
Monomania was replaced with Oracle of Mul Daya for more ramp. Monomania felt redundant with Mind Twist already in there and I'm a huge fan of Oracle's ability.
Sheoldred replaced with Rune-Scarred Demon. Tutoring on a 6/6 flyer is just too good.
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Wrexial, the Risen Deep and Geth, Lord of the Vault have left the building
They just don't support the control/combo nature of this deck. I will still play them in kitchen table games for their flavor and splashiness, but when it comes to league play they have been replaced with Dissipate and Faerie Trickery. The entire motive of this build is to control the board state in order to keep things balanced, stay alive, and eventually combo out. Geth and Wrexy do not help achieve this.
Other notable changes include:
-Life's Finale (6 sweepers is overkill, plus this was included to have synergy with reanimation spells like Geth, Necromancy and Animate Dead which have all been cut.)
-Animate Dead
- x1 Forest
*Beacon of Unrest and Profane Command are plenty sufficient reanimate spells should I see a creature in a bin I want. Actually considering turning Beacon into Reanimate
+Mystic Snake
+Pongify (Pong!!!)
+Muddle the Mixture (In addition to being a counter, Muddle tutors for Library, Vault, Tribe Elder, Greaves, Twincast, D Tutor, and most importantly my kill spell Exsanguinate. This should have been a no-brainer from the start.)
Only changes that are sure to come yet are:
1) Better lands (because they're faster)
2) Primeval Titan (because he's the best creature EVER printed. Sorry Consecrated Sphinx.)
3) Grim Monolith (because redundancy with mana reflection for the combo seems good. This would give me a third avenue to achieve infinite, and a backup plan should Basalt get RFG'd - Also considering Power Artifact which would increase the avenues to x5. It's just so useless outside the combo. At least the Rings double Liliana, Drana, and crack lands..)
^ That said, Does this build really need x5 ways to produce infinite colorless mana? If so, since T&N and Mana Reflection are already in the build, does the Vorinclex and Palinchron version of the combo warrant inclusion too? This would increase the infinite combo avenues to x8, which feels like total overkill in a deck with 7 tutors..
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http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=352037&page=4
Speed & Curve Upgrades:
-Thirst for Knowledge
+Brainstorm
-Compulsive Research
+Ponder
-Rend Flesh
+Dismember
-Waterveil Canyon
+Underground River
Value Upgrades
-Recurring Insight
+Necropotence (strictly better here)
- Forest
+Dissipate (this deck thrives on counters)
-Barren Moor
+Tectonic Edge (another "tech" Tolaria West target)
-Lonely Sandbar
+Grand Coliseum (increased mana fixing)
Increased ways to achieve infinite mana with an entwined Tooth & Nail:
-Acidic Slime
+Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
-Terastodon
+Palinchron
Changes yet to come:
-Mystic Snake
+Venser, Shaper Savant
-Beacon of Unrest
+Primeval Titan
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Thank You Rivenor/Miraculous Recovery Studios!
GGGSKamahl's Band of Monstosities SGGG
RRRSFreaki-Kiki, The Goblin DoucheSRRR
BBGGNath, Raper of Hands and Spewer of Tokens!GGBB
BUGDamia, Sage of AnswersBUG
WIPs
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On Break
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BBBThe Walking DeadBBB
UUUSTeferi Combo PrimerSUUU
No chance lol. Green gives access to:
A) ramping spells which make the deck faster
B) more control which gives the deck a wider range to shape the game state
C) a second way for Basalt to go infinite with Mana Reflection
D) regrowth spells to recover lost combo pieces or bombs
E) an entwined T&N that is win
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I think nutterbutter meant as your win condition for having infinite mana, not as a general. You need to attack for Drana to work, but you can do Oona as soon as you play her.
I was weighing the two at one point but went with Drana.
My thought is that Drana is more valuable outside the combo as she can be used to remove indestructible creatures, her ability doubles with Rings, and can practically neuter the battlefield with Seedborn Muse in play.
Honestly, indestructible creatures haven't been an issue yet with All is Dust, Evacuation, K Leviathan, Dismember, Capsize, and Spin Into Myth in the build. In the late game opponents swing like crazy at me, so I sweep so often that even my own creatures don't stick for long. She's on the short list for cutting actually.
As for the fact that Oona can activate the turn she comes out - I never lay out both Basalt and Rings at the same time until I'm ready to activate and win; just one of them. The mana cost to lay out one of the two artifacts to assemble, cast Oona, activate the Monolith, and then activate Oona would be 12 + 1 more for each opponent at the table. Sorta steep.
In a scenerio where I attempted to swing someone out with Drana, (which hasn't come up yet), I would cast her, pass turn, protect her with counters, then activate my combo next turn. Greaves don't help much because it's still too mana intensive to make everything happen unless I've got an obscene amount of mana. Whether it's Drana or Oona it's a clunky way to win. In all my wins, Tunnel Vision knocks the most troublesome opponent out of the game early if necessary and then Exsanguinate kills the table later on.
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Seems like you're running a highly reactive deck, and these cards let you essentially play NOTHING on your turn to hold all mana open for counterspells, and then drop a whole bunch if there's nothing worth hitting. You can still play all of your permanents but the classic, "How much should I leave open for answers?" question becomes a non-issue.
I strongly feel that permission-heavy combo decks in EDH can really only benefit from having one in their deck.
UR [PRIMER] Flash of the Firemind (Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind) RU
BG Death and Staxes: FireStorm4056's Competitive Meren Stax List GB
W Avacyn Angel of Hope W
R Akroma, Angel of (Your Opponent's) Fury R
R 99-Mountain Ashling R
That's a really interesting prospect. I had passed on these along time ago, thinking that leaving mana open only for counter spells / instant speed spot removal and occasionally Evacuation or Time Stop was sufficient.
I really like making the question "How much should I leave open for answers?" a non-issue. Dropping combo pieces before turn is passed to me is even more attractive. T&N is primary, but sometimes Basalt and Palinchron have to drop on a different turn from Mana Reflection or Rings of Brighthearth. Showing half an infinite combo on the table in a meta of savvy players is always bad.
The only thing I would be concerned about though is having one more permanent in play to protect - the fewer the better, especially when I am regularly sweeping. Vedalken Orrery might work though as it survives All is Dust and can be recovered with Academy Ruins.
I'll have to think this over..
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These permanents fall into that grey area where most players truly don't understand just how important they really are for a blue player. Their thought process is typically, "Well, it's not really hurting me, not providing him with more threats or card advantage, and he could still play his stuff anyway even if he didn't have it." People tend to gloss over the fact that their power lies in their ability to enable, and because this is often such a nebulous concept, they elect not to touch them. Even if an Orrery lets you land a combo piece the End-Step before you win, most people look at the combo piece as the problem and forget the Orrery is what got you there.... I've even found myself thinking this at times.
Good luck!
UR [PRIMER] Flash of the Firemind (Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind) RU
BG Death and Staxes: FireStorm4056's Competitive Meren Stax List GB
W Avacyn Angel of Hope W
R Akroma, Angel of (Your Opponent's) Fury R
R 99-Mountain Ashling R
Very cool. I'm going to retire about 6 cards that don't serve much purpose beyond going infinite and replace them with versatile/value spells like Time Warp and Bribery.. I will be testing Orrery and Leyline in this version too.
I do like the idea of having no combo to assemble and no definitive wincon. It makes piloting the deck more challenging and the end game a mystery.
Only play this deck when your sole intention is to win though. As I learned this weekend, an Evacuation + Eternal Witness loop will do little more than frustrate and irritate a casual play group..
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Lol, I bet it does.
No, I usually don't play control. All of my EDH decks are multi-player casual fun decks. But I've got a brother who runs an Intet deck that is asking to be beat at its own game. I think Damia is the answer. Of course, it's going to take me a while to get all the pieces. Especially the dual lands. I may have to part with some cards from my "keep" binder.
I added spells that give me options to interact throughout the course of the game. There's no clearly defined win-con anymore, but that's cool because I like the challenge of piloting this build to an unpredictable path to victory.
Changes:
-Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
-Palinchron
-Basalt Monolith
-Rings of Brighthearth
-Mana Reflection
-Exsanguinate
-Profane Command
-Oona, Queen of the Fae
-Ambassador Laquatus
-Brainstorm
+Desertion
+Rite of Replication
+Reins of Power
+Bribery
+Defense of the Heart
+Future Sight
+Vedalken Orrery
+Mirari
+Mindslaver
+Mimic Vat
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All is dust is not an artifact card and cannot be returned with ruins
(It can also be put back into play with Beacon of Unrest)
*All is Dust is recovered/recurred by Snapcaster, YagWill, Regrowth, and E Witness
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