There's been a lot of talk about Rakdos, Lord of Riots. I think the reason that he's so exciting is because, like the demon he is, he promises great rewards if you do the right things for him. He has the same Godlike power of other top tier generals like Kaalia and Animar, without the tribal restrictions, and on a 6/6 body of his own. If only you could find a way to feed him a little blood.
This question has been rattling in my mind for a while. Unlike Kaalia or Animar, you need to spend a lot of room in your deck on ways to do the initial damage, and doing it in a way that it still worthwhile on its own in case things go wrong. This deck contains the conclusions I've reached, which are by no means proven. The way I arrived here is taking note of some cards that I would want to use with Rakdos, reflecting on the ways I've used them before in the past, and finding as many commonalities as I could.
The result was a resource denial theme. Pox effects, discard effects and a bit of land destruction. That's when Rakdos met his true calling - reducing the world to a flaming pit of rubble.
The following deck was Posted 10/02/12. It pushed the resource denial theme quite a bit harder than my later versions. But since winning the game was difficult just on destruction alone, I was ultimately not satisfied with the threat density. And without proper threat density, I felt that I was only using Rakdos as a large body. I wanted to redirect the deck away from that.
My latest version of the deck has led the deck to being much more explosive, while streamlining the disruptive elements into the most efficient package. In another thread, I posted a few of my opinions on the general position a Rakdos deck should take at a table, and what a good Rakdos deck construction should look like:
So mainly, the conflict is between casting Rakdos ASAP and casting Rakdos into a more starved board state. On the one hand, casting Rakdos early into a table with full hands is not going to end in your connecting with him a lot of the time, since removal goes his way. But on the other, the argument is that waiting too long removes the point of playing him, since you might as well be playing a ramp deck and hardcast your fatties.
I'm going to play therapist. The thing to remember here is that neither camp is happy. That tells me that there are expectations on both sides. The solution to both is to disabuse ourselves of the expectations, and make like Alcoholics Anonymous - have the serenity to accept the things we can't change, the strength to change the things we can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
The deck with the best start usually draws the most hate. But how are you escaping this problem? It's intractable. It's a problem not only with Kaalia and Rakdos, but with basically any creature-forward strategy, from Rafiq to Uril to Zur. You can do one of two things - play exclusively combo and control decks, ones that rarely if ever cast their general, and hope nobody notices you. Or you can develop and test an aggressive deck and accept the limitations your deck will have when you sit down at a table with 3 control players.
And that's the thing. Different games will be different, and different metas will be different. It's one thing to go into a meta where people think board wipes and pillow forts are the nuts, that everyone else will just be playing Craterhoof Behemoth decks, and who would never consider running graveyard hate or Jester's Cap effects because they can't see the point. This is the wrong deck for that meta. I would play combo or control in that meta. It's just too hostile to creatures. But it's an entirely different thing to order cards in the mail, play one or two games a week, then feel your heart sink into your chest when those two games happen to be against players with awful threat assessment that each run 6 clones of Doom Blade. You're just not giving the deck the time and testing that a reasonable development process requires. Better is if you play 2 or 3 games a day against random, reasonably prepared opponents, then notice that you're taking a fair deal more than the 1 in 4 that would be your mathematical fair share. It's an expectations issue.
And another thing, consider your alternatives. The argument is that you might as well be playing a ramp deck and hardcasting fatties if you're not getting on-line until turn 6. So, play a ramp deck. Ramp decks do what they do. They are still mostly bad. And the reason that they're bad is that they don't interact well with counter strategies, don't disrupt opposing plans, etc. The emerging principle is that you have to do something other than just going straight for the win, and you have to do something productive and effective with the early turns. This deck leads to doing certain things to set up. If any player feels those things are bad, or not worthwhile, or ineffective against their group, then either find something else or play a different deck. Maybe you don't like this style of deck. You're not married to it.
But while we're on it, I just thought I'd use this as an example for why fear and compromises can lead to poor deck construction. It's really hard for a ramp deck (or a Kaalia deck) to cast multiple fatties per turn. Consequently, there are limits to the threat density ramp decks can run. By comparison, it is quite easy for Rakdos decks to cast 3 fatties after connecting. Provided it draws them. So when people aren't running high threat density as a compromise for the general's vulnerability, they never get that benefit. Then the observation that Rakdos is little better than a ramp deck is fulfilled because they've compromised their threat density for more durdle. I mean, a lot of decks I see only about 10 creatures at 6+ cmc. They are actually running more enablers than they are beef. I just see that as quite timid.
Overall, I am pretty optimistic about Rakdos as a serious, competitive deck. Kaalia decks, by contrast, were both overdeveloped and underdeveloped at the same time. Overdeveloped by a certain casual crowd as a result of the hype, while underdeveloped because the brain-children of the community were also distracted by the hype and by the sheer numbers of casual, one-dimensional decks out there. Rakdos seems to be much more niche. A lot of people have gotten really close, and a few strategies and principles really stand out. And Rakdos promises the ability to run the creatures that really break the game, like the Myojins and the Eldrazi.
This version is the most uncompromising to date. Accordingly, it's both the strongest I've made so far, and the most vulnerable.
The threat density really sets it apart. To best work around that, the go-to card for tutoring becomes Sneak Attack. When these elements come together, the rest is just about drawing enough and reanimating enough to keep the beats coming. Wheel effects and the repeatable recursion Enchantments accomplish that.
Hey, nice to see another player jumping on the opportunity to make a deck with this guy!
My first instinct actually was a discard=damage kind of deck with Rakdos, but I was convinced by others to try out a more all-in strategy (which does fit the Rakdos flavor a little more ;)).
Definitely wants Sword of Fire and Ice. Card draw obviously, but you can shock someone with a Bitterblossom token wielding it and then cast Rakdos second main.
Lifegain might be a consideration. Not very flavorful, but you have a lot of effects that are going to steadily drain you. People who play Dark Confidant love the guy, but you've got some demons and dragons that could make him hurt. Graveborn Muse costs twice as much as Bob, but will only ping you 1 each turn.
I also like Bloodgift Demon in here. Potential of costing only BB with Rakdos out. Could actually ping someone else for 1 (of course they get to draw) so you can cast Rakdos.
Another couple of lifegain options that aren't too off-base. Suffer the Past will exile all the cards someone has been discarding, hit their life total, up your life total, and of course enable you to cast Rakdos if you cast play it for a smaller amount. Batterskull wouldn't be horrible here. You can sac the germ token to Braids or whatever, and the pump/vigilance/lifelink is pretty nice. Also, though it's mana intensive, you can return it to your hand and recast it to sac the germ again. (Black Market would make that easily doable. Black Market would get huge in this deck.)
I'm assuming you considered Megrim effects and decided that would divide the deck a bit too much. But there's always that possibility.
People are going to come gunning for you, maybe Dread to discourage them from losing what creatures they have left.
Definitely wants Sword of Fire and Ice. Card draw obviously, but you can shock someone with a Bitterblossom token wielding it and then cast Rakdos second main.
Lifegain might be a consideration. Not very flavorful, but you have a lot of effects that are going to steadily drain you. People who play Dark Confidant love the guy, but you've got some demons and dragons that could make him hurt. Graveborn Muse costs twice as much as Bob, but will only ping you 1 each turn.
I also like Bloodgift Demon in here. Potential of costing only BB with Rakdos out. Could actually ping someone else for 1 (of course they get to draw) so you can cast Rakdos.
Another couple of lifegain options that aren't too off-base. Suffer the Past will exile all the cards someone has been discarding, hit their life total, up your life total, and of course enable you to cast Rakdos if you cast play it for a smaller amount. Batterskull wouldn't be horrible here. You can sac the germ token to Braids or whatever, and the pump/vigilance/lifelink is pretty nice. Also, though it's mana intensive, you can return it to your hand and recast it to sac the germ again. (Black Market would make that easily doable. Black Market would get huge in this deck.)
I'm assuming you considered Megrim effects and decided that would divide the deck a bit too much. But there's always that possibility.
People are going to come gunning for you, maybe Dread to discourage them from losing what creatures they have left.
Good luck with the deck!
Yeah, I usually opt for Graveborn Muse and Bloodgift Demon over Dark Confidant, but this deck really wants a lot of creatures 3cc and under to make T4 Rakdos as often as possible. He's just cheap enough to get into the red zone at the time when, more than likely, someone at the table won't have anything to block. However, testing proxies of the deck leads me to want more steady card draw than I have now, and so I will probably put in SOFAI and Graveborn Muse pretty soon, maybe something more expensive like Bloodgift Demon as well. I just resent Blue and Green for getting things like Sturmgeist and Ohran Viper, grrr.
I've also noticed the need for a bit of lifegain somewhere in the deck. Jitte and SOLAS aren't strong enough to rescue me usually, and Batterskull is almost worth it just because of Godo alone, but otherwise it's just so mana intensive for this deck. I wish there were some black lifelinker worth playing, other than Grizzlebanned, lol.
Megrim effects I've never really liked. 4 mana for a card that will do 6-8 damage to 3 players on its good games, I just don't see the room for. I'd rather play Geth's Grimoire, if anything.
A couple cards that I'm definitely going to include are Imperial Recruiter and Myojin of Infinite Rage. I picked up a Recruiter for my Animar deck, so no issue there, and he'd be really great in here with Braids. Myojin is just the thing I'm looking for to get a bit more LD.
Might Vampire Nighthawk be a good Lifelinker for you? 2 per swing isn't a lot of life, but you can run Swords to buff him and he's a 3cc creature with evasion so he helps Rakdos come down on turn four.
Well, I will probably keep a copy of Exquisite Blood close by, possibly sideboard it in when playing against aggro or another grindy sort of deck.
I'm more worried about consistency in general. I'm pretty confident the game plan is good when it works. Here's a few 3cc and below creatures that have caught my eye:
Jaya Ballard, Task Mage - pretty good alongside things like Squee and other discardables, and as many ways to deal with Consecrated Sphinx the better. Not sure it's quite good enough though.
Myr Retriever - nice recursion effect while feeding Braids, gets better with recursion like Oversold Cemetery.
Magus of the Moon - nuff said. Might as well embrace the hate. Two color leaning so heavily toward Black with the basics can probably swing it.
Moriok Replica - could probably replace Sign in Blood with this.
Pilgrim's Eye - another cantrip'per at 3, and an evasive one.
Goblin Sharpshooter - great against tokens, at the expense of being niche. Triggering Rakdos is a secondary use that might just put it into general playability.
Mana dorks like Basal Sliver - a Dark Ritual worth of mana the turn after they're played. Ideally they would get in, sac themselves post-combat to play Rakdos, then there's a few mana left over for a discounted creature.
Undertaker - basically Tortured Existence on a stick, so in a deck where being a stick is useful for attacking undefended players, it might be decent. I don't really like the prospect of it getting swept, since recursion is supposed to come in after said sweeps, but it's worth a shot if my disruption is good.
Looks like I have to experiment with what I want to take out also. Any suggestions?
Myr Retriever - nice recursion effect while feeding Braids, gets better with recursion like Oversold Cemetery.
Magus of the Moon - nuff said. Might as well embrace the hate. Two color leaning so heavily toward Black with the basics can probably swing it.
Moriok Replica - could probably replace Sign in Blood with this.
Those three I like best. Moriok is definitely a good replacement for Sign in Blood.Myr Retriever is also a good, more so with Smokestack And Magus of the Moon is great against some decks and has awesome art! I don't know what other nonbasics you want to run though, so I don't know how much it would hurt yourself.
Ok, played about 20 games with this pile now, and it's time to make an overhaul.
OUT:
Mindclaw Shaman - Hit and miss ordinarily, in a discard deck a whiff is even more probable.
Helm of Possession - Good with all the fodder, but its effective cost of 6 is a bit too much for comfort.
Hell's Caretaker - Another card that's good with tokens, but it seems like it just needs too many things to come together, and it's fragile to boot.
Butcher of Malakir - It's not what I need a lot of the time
Dwarven Blastminer - Too mana intensive, and fragile.
Solemn Simulacrum - Just a bit too expensive, and I rarely need the ramp.
Chandra the Firebrand - it seemed like the only thing it was doing was enabling Rakdos, since I generally didn't have enough mana to copy a spell, even if I drew one.
Grim Tutor - Too expensive to fix my opener, and this isn't the kind of deck that needs to make a certain card every game.
Lodestone Golem - Isn't doing enough without support, and the discard sort of pulls against it since people are less often casting multiple spells per turn
Rakdos Signet, Fire Diamond, Charcoal Diamond, Talisman of Indulgence, Coalition Relic - these need a bit of explanation, but I'm not sure I have it. I've just simply noticed that my openers with mana rocks are not very good. The more early mana I use the better, and the initial investment of the casting cost doesn't pay off later. And if I do hit my land destruction, having one or two rocks doesn't really put me in a clearly superior position.
Desolation - this one kind of hurts. I really want to like it more, but it has just seemed to hurt me too much and to allow my opponents to play around it too easily. If I play it early, I lose a land, delay Rakdos a turn or more, and then no one casts anything but me until around turn 6, where control is ripped from my grasp by a bomb. If I play it late, it's removed, or Rakdos is removed, and its effect is too slow to rescue a game for this deck.
IN:
Myojin of Infinite Rage - I've actually been playing this for a while in substitution for one thing or another, and it's performed excellently. Rakdos into this is game nearly every time.
Imperial Recruiter - turns into Braids, Squee or basically anything else this deck needs. Pretty clear that he'll do well here.
Myr Retriever - I expect it will be good to have recursion for my key artifacts somewhere in the deck, 2 is a key mana cost here, and he may be able to swing to enable Rakdos.
Chandra Ablaze - this will be the first time I try this card, seems like it will fit. The deck's capable of draws where you hit little or no discard, and you sit around scratching your head. The -2 ability seems like it would work to force several cards discarded, maybe drawing you some in the process. I'm already running Squee besides.
Moriok Replica - Sign in Blood on what's basically a morph creature, can be used to enable Rakdos or cast for free with him. I expect he'll perform well.
Tortured Existence - the deck seems creature-heavy enough to do it, and the cmc's are pretty disparate besides. I want to see cards like Oversold Cemetery and Phyrexian Reclamation more often in this deck.
Vengeful Pharaoh - more discard fodder, seems like a serviceable No Mercy effect that's free to use.
Krovikan Horror - I really need a Squee effect more often, and this seems like it could enable Rakdos quite reliably in a pinch also.
Shivan Harvest - better than the Blastminer here, seems like it could be quite disruptive.
Magus of the Moon, Blood Moon - I'm hoping this will work better than the Desolation route. It doesn't hurt me at all, and there's a lot of 3 and 5 color decks I've seen that would rip their hair out over it. Magus is also a T3 beater that can activate a T4 Rakdos.
Winter Orb - I've played this card before, and I've always been impressed with its ability to equalize games where Smokestack can't. And it seems like this deck itself wants to function on a small amount of mana, not none.
Sword of Fire and Ice, Sword of Feast and Famine - A lot of the time I want to give the fodder more things to do. SOFIA draws, SOFAF discards, even though its odd to see that effect take precedence. Both also reduce the clock on Rakdos from 4 turns to 3.
Platinum Emperion - I feel that this is just the card I need aside from Wurmcoil to hedge against a lot of the pain I'm taking. Good in itself besides as a must-remove within the type of game where removal is quickly spent.
Changes have been working very well. Had a game where the whole table turned on me and I resolved a Platinum Emperion that stuck around for a long, long while. Seems to be pretty typical that removal is thrown away quickly when the discard hits, and the best is when opponents are visibly waiting to drop something like a Sun Titan or a Consecrated Sphinx, then it gets Pox'ed immediately.
I also found a Buried Alive in my list, didn't see it above, and I haven't taken the time to figure out what has its place. Typical move now is BA into Vengeful Pharaoh, Squee, Bloodghast - it covers my face, my hand and my board.
I still seem to be too creature light for my taste. Oversold Cemetery now works only as a late game plan, and it usually won't work more than one turn in a row unless something dies before my upkeep triggers. I'm not sure what to do about this, since most of the creatures I've considered have been dismissed, and most of what's in there in their place are cards that should be keeping me drawing. I'm not sure I even want to go above the 33 creatures I have now, I just wish I had more consistency.
Oh and in case people are wondering, I have faced Karador a few times, and yes, it is a bit in his favor right now. But the good news is that it's not a blowout for the reasons one might think. Discard still hurts him quite a bit, and it seems that he can't fill his graveyard as fast as he'd like when he's throwing away cards so early. The problem is the amount of recursive removal so many of these decks run. If I can keep Karador expensive enough to stay off the table, he stalls, but the same is true for his killing my Rakdos, and he just has more cards to do it with. The one advantage I have here is that Rakdos comes down T5'ish nearly every game, which is a few turns earlier than his commander. It's sort of a face-off that way, which is actually kind of fun. In my own group Karador is not played nearly as much as he used to be, since the speed of our decks nowadays really kills him, but when facing randoms I see him here and there. I think the more Stax'ish Karador tries to be the more he starts enabling our deck than vice-versa, which is good since that's the direction I see more and more Karador players going.
Oh, and I still have to update the list in the OP.
I remember that as being on my short list at one point, but for whatever reason I opted out of it. But now that I think on it, it's probably better here than it would be anywhere else, seeing as there's plenty of 2/x's and that people are apt to throw away enchantment kill to the discard. I'll have to find room.
I wonder why you choose to focus a little bit more on the discard versus hitting the opponent mana base?
Rakdos is suppose to help you bring your creature in a cheap way, I will try to build my deck, really close to what you have but more on the mana screwing side of the fence and give you feedback on it.
I wonder why you choose to focus a little bit more on the discard versus hitting the opponent mana base?
Rakdos is suppose to help you bring your creature in a cheap way, I will try to build my deck, really close to what you have but more on the mana screwing side of the fence and give you feedback on it.
I had Desolation in there for a while, but it was either so early that it hurt me the worst by far, or so late that it never ended up making a significant impact on anyone, since they'd discarded way down already and weren't playing a lot. I'm sure that Contamination would be a great post-Rakdos play here, but that's just one of those cards I'd prefer didn't exist, and I have Blood Moon besides, which hurts me less.
But the way it's played out also, this amount of discard has the indirect effect of keeping lands on the field down. A lot of players throw their lands away when discard hits them early, because they figure that Recurring Insight will get them there, then it ends up taking them too long to cast it. This deck doesn't like to see a few specific cards like Land Tax, Crucible of Worlds and Life from the Loam, but the discard does indeed help notwithstanding.
Besides, there's Keldon Firebombers, Winter Orb, Shivan Harvest, Myojin, 2 Stax effects, and 3 Pox effects already in here, and I'm just not sure what else is good along those lines. There's Boom/Bust and Impending Disaster, but this deck has little land recursion of its own, so having no land means we can't play anything, even at the discounted cost.
Let me know how your experience with the deck goes.
B/R is a tough color to build around. It lacks draw engine in its color therefore forcing you to use artifact draws, no green mana ramp forcing you to use a lot of artifact ramp and black lands. however. B/R lockpiece can be very annoying.
A team should be as happy as a meal - TEAM HAPPYMEAL
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Buy All the planeswalkers!!!
Buy All the Dual Lands!!!
Buy All the fetches!
Create tons of EDH Decks!!!
Eat Nothing but Oats!! (LOL, not true)
Train MMA!!!
Marry My girlfriend!!!
Get her Pregnant only Once!
Teach my Son/Daughter Sports and magic cards!!!
Continue my legacy son!!!/Daughter!!
B/R is a tough color to build around. It lacks draw engine in its color therefore forcing you to use artifact draws, no green mana ramp forcing you to use a lot of artifact ramp and black lands. however. B/R lockpiece can be very annoying.
Mikaeus could be very good in this deck, and of course with him comes Trike. That would be an option for some additional finishing power, certainly. I'm also looking at Sorin Markhov for a little bit of get-me-there.
A team should be as happy as a meal - TEAM HAPPYMEAL
EDH - UWGrand Arbiter Agustin IV UBW Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Modern - Mono U tron / Polymorph / NFTW (ninja for the win)GR tronGR
Buy All the planeswalkers!!!
Buy All the Dual Lands!!!
Buy All the fetches!
Create tons of EDH Decks!!!
Eat Nothing but Oats!! (LOL, not true)
Train MMA!!!
Marry My girlfriend!!!
Get her Pregnant only Once!
Teach my Son/Daughter Sports and magic cards!!!
Continue my legacy son!!!/Daughter!!
Well as mentioned, I've never had a high opinion of Megrim effects, same with other punisher cards like Underworld Dreams, Manabarbs, etc. Something that just deals damage could end up doing nothing more than upsetting people, and that means we lose. I'm curious to know what other peoples' experiences are with these cards, but my expectations are not at all high, so I'll be leaving the testing to others. If I were to run something like this it would probably be Sorin, which I probably will test at some point, or Havoc Festival, which seems to have more effect than the others but still probably falls short.
Anvil of Bogardan is interesting however. Even though you probably mentioned it only as going alongside Megrim/Underworld Dreams, it could be sort of a one-sided Howling Mine for us, since we wouldn't have trouble finding things like Squee to discard profitably. The only downside is that it does give our opponents better chances of drawing something that's going to be most useful to them, especially in the later stages where their hands are all empty.
Well as mentioned, I've never had a high opinion of Megrim effects, same with other punisher cards like Underworld Dreams, Manabarbs, etc. Something that just deals damage could end up doing nothing more than upsetting people, and that means we lose. I'm curious to know what other peoples' experiences are with these cards, but my expectations are not at all high, so I'll be leaving the testing to others. If I were to run something like this it would probably be Sorin, which I probably will test at some point, or Havoc Festival, which seems to have more effect than the others but still probably falls short.
Anvil of Bogardan is interesting however. Even though you probably mentioned it only as going alongside Megrim/Underworld Dreams, it could be sort of a one-sided Howling Mine for us, since we wouldn't have trouble finding things like Squee to discard profitably. The only downside is that it does give our opponents better chances of drawing something that's going to be most useful to them, especially in the later stages where their hands are all empty.
Manabarbs is. a. house. Seriously, it will do so much damage unless someone has a quick way to kill it. Very powerful.
Well as mentioned, I've never had a high opinion of Megrim effects, same with other punisher cards like Underworld Dreams, Manabarbs, etc. Something that just deals damage could end up doing nothing more than upsetting people, and that means we lose. I'm curious to know what other peoples' experiences are with these cards, but my expectations are not at all high, so I'll be leaving the testing to others. If I were to run something like this it would probably be Sorin, which I probably will test at some point, or Havoc Festival, which seems to have more effect than the others but still probably falls short.
Anvil of Bogardan is interesting however. Even though you probably mentioned it only as going alongside Megrim/Underworld Dreams, it could be sort of a one-sided Howling Mine for us, since we wouldn't have trouble finding things like Squee to discard profitably. The only downside is that it does give our opponents better chances of drawing something that's going to be most useful to them, especially in the later stages where their hands are all empty.
aaaaa. but you forgot, you can also put sphere effects to better stop your opponents from winning, plus you have land destruction in your colors.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A team should be as happy as a meal - TEAM HAPPYMEAL
EDH - UWGrand Arbiter Agustin IV UBW Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Modern - Mono U tron / Polymorph / NFTW (ninja for the win)GR tronGR
Buy All the planeswalkers!!!
Buy All the Dual Lands!!!
Buy All the fetches!
Create tons of EDH Decks!!!
Eat Nothing but Oats!! (LOL, not true)
Train MMA!!!
Marry My girlfriend!!!
Get her Pregnant only Once!
Teach my Son/Daughter Sports and magic cards!!!
Continue my legacy son!!!/Daughter!!
This version of the Rakdos deck looks interesting, I've been trying to make the more all-out version work but it draws too much hate. I think i'm gonna give Stax a go
I've been a bit busy with other things, but I haven't abandoned the deck. I posted a bit over in Grinning Demon's thread, since it was getting more traffic, but I plan to update this one with the list I'm currently working with now. I have made substantial improvements over the list in the OP, and what I have now isn't suffering anymore in the way that one was. I just hadn't had many posts in a while.
I like the list in its current state. Plenty of synergy between cards that force sacrifices across the board, cards that wheel, and cards that take advantage of creatures in all graveyards. The one card that gives me pause is Living Death because there's a good chance you've wheeled some excellent creatures into your opponents' graveyards that you don't want them getting back. I suppose you break the symmetry on this by simply having more threatening creatures on your side.
I got a chuckle out of your piece on giving some therapy to those who are trying to go all in with this deck while playing it safe. I've only played my version twice, and I kept my curve fairly low as I wasn't sure how it would play. I've since upped the heft of a few of my creatures, including the two best recurrable Eldrazi you have in your build. It's interesting to me that I reached some of the same conclusions you did as I've been puttering with the deck for awhile and hadn't looked at your build again until now.
What do you think of Stinkweed Imp? A good card to enable a turn 3 or 4 Rakdos, to sac to a pox effect, to fill your graveyard with recursion fodder.
The red Myojin is indeed awesome, but finding room for Keldon Firebombers might be worth a thought as well. Will work off Sneak Attack, will leave you 3 land to keep using Sneak Attack, will most likely elicit a scoop if you have It That Betrays out.
I forget if we talked about Nim Deathmantle, but seems really good with Sneak Attack.
Am considering Chandra Ablaze. All abilities are relevant to this deck, but she costs 6 without any discount in a deck that already is heavy on the curve if we can't get to our cheat cards.
I'm still working the demon tribal angle, because I'm a sucker for tribal, but I'll be bringing my version next time I play to give it another try. Link in my signature has the newer version, give it a look-see.
There's been a lot of talk about Rakdos, Lord of Riots. I think the reason that he's so exciting is because, like the demon he is, he promises great rewards if you do the right things for him. He has the same Godlike power of other top tier generals like Kaalia and Animar, without the tribal restrictions, and on a 6/6 body of his own. If only you could find a way to feed him a little blood.
This question has been rattling in my mind for a while. Unlike Kaalia or Animar, you need to spend a lot of room in your deck on ways to do the initial damage, and doing it in a way that it still worthwhile on its own in case things go wrong. This deck contains the conclusions I've reached, which are by no means proven. The way I arrived here is taking note of some cards that I would want to use with Rakdos, reflecting on the ways I've used them before in the past, and finding as many commonalities as I could.
The result was a resource denial theme. Pox effects, discard effects and a bit of land destruction. That's when Rakdos met his true calling - reducing the world to a flaming pit of rubble.
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Stronghold Rats
1x Necrogen Mists
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Mind Slash
B) Fodder
1x Bitterblossom
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
1x Goblin Matron (or Imperial Recruiter)
1x Dusk Urchins
1x Pilgrim’s Eye
1x Moriok Replica
1x Anger
C) Gas
1x Night’s Whisper
1x Skullclamp
1x Faithless Looting
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Reforge the Soul
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Disciple of Bolas
1x Staff of Nin
D) Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Buried Alive
1x Dimir House-Guard
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Tortured Existence
1x Phyrexian Reclamation
1x Doomed Necromancer
1x Sneak Attack
1x Coffin Queen
1x Diabolic Servitude
1x Strands of Night
1x Balthor the Defiled
1x Mimic Vat
E) Beaters
1x Knollspine Dragon
1x Rune-Scarred Demon
1x Dragon Mage
1x Butcher of Malakir
1x Sheoldred, Whispering One
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Balefire Dragon
1x Charmbreaker Devils
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star
1x Godo, Bandit Warlord
1x Avatar of Slaughter
1x Myojin of Night’s Reach
1x Myojin of Infinite Rage
1x It That Betrays
1x Scion of Darkness
1x Platinum Emperion
1x Mikaeus the Unhallowed
1x Flayer of the Hatebound
1x Artisan of Kozilek
1x Viashino Heretic
1x Smallpox
1x Pox
1x Jokulhaups
1x Living Death
1x Blind Zealot
1x Lightning Greaves
G) Mana
1x Rakdos Signet
1x Black Market
Land (37)
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Rix-Maadi, Dungeon Palace
1x Piranha Marsh
34 Others
The following deck was Posted 10/02/12. It pushed the resource denial theme quite a bit harder than my later versions. But since winning the game was difficult just on destruction alone, I was ultimately not satisfied with the threat density. And without proper threat density, I felt that I was only using Rakdos as a large body. I wanted to redirect the deck away from that.
1x Pox
1x Deathcloud
1x Braids, Cabal Minion
1x Blood Moon
1x Smokestack
1x Keldon Firebombers
1x Winter Orb
1x Shivan Harvest
1x Gibbering Descent
1x Cunning Lethemancer
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Stronghold Rats
1x Necrogen Mists
1x Sadistic Hypnotist
1x Liliana’s Specter
1x Rotting Rats
1x Mind Slash
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Bitterblossom
1x Goblin Assault
1x Bloodghast
1x Nether Traitor
1x Reassembling Skeleton
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
1x Dusk Urchins
1x Phyrexian Rager
1x Dark Confidant
1x Myr Retriever
1x Moriok Replica
1x Krovikan Horror
1x Magus of the Moon
1x Skullclamp
1x Night's Whisper
1x Sign in Blood
1x Faithless Looting
1x Syphon Mind
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Oversold Cemetery
1x Phyrexian Reclamation
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Tortured Existence
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Buried Alive
1x Hoarding Dragon
1x Rune-Scarred Demon
1x Imperial Recruiter
1x Chandra Ablaze
1x Fleshbag Marauder
1x Magus of the Abyss
1x Big Game Hunter
1x Attrition
1x Vengeful Pharaoh
1x Umezawa’s Jitte
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Godo, Bandit Warlord
1x Knollspine Dragon
1x Charmbreaker Devils
1x Balefire Dragon
1x Myojin of Infinite Rage
1x Platinum Emperion
1x Bloodchief Ascension
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Rix-Maadi, Dungeon Palace
My latest version of the deck has led the deck to being much more explosive, while streamlining the disruptive elements into the most efficient package. In another thread, I posted a few of my opinions on the general position a Rakdos deck should take at a table, and what a good Rakdos deck construction should look like:
This version is the most uncompromising to date. Accordingly, it's both the strongest I've made so far, and the most vulnerable.
The threat density really sets it apart. To best work around that, the go-to card for tutoring becomes Sneak Attack. When these elements come together, the rest is just about drawing enough and reanimating enough to keep the beats coming. Wheel effects and the repeatable recursion Enchantments accomplish that.
My first instinct actually was a discard=damage kind of deck with Rakdos, but I was convinced by others to try out a more all-in strategy (which does fit the Rakdos flavor a little more ;)).
I do like your list though! Some additional discard to consider: Pain Magnification (flavor!) and Myojin of Night's Reach.
I'm missing Grave Pact in your list!
Good luck with this take on Rakdos, I will keep a close eye on it, because it's a strategy I like to play as well
BRGWTana and TymnaBRGW
RTeneb, the EternalR
UBRNekusar, Mind RazerUBR
Rakdos, Lord of Riots
BGWGhave, Guru of SporesBGW
Aurelia, the Warleader
BDrana, Kalastria BloodchiefB
WBROros, the AvengerWBR
Lifegain might be a consideration. Not very flavorful, but you have a lot of effects that are going to steadily drain you. People who play Dark Confidant love the guy, but you've got some demons and dragons that could make him hurt. Graveborn Muse costs twice as much as Bob, but will only ping you 1 each turn.
I also like Bloodgift Demon in here. Potential of costing only BB with Rakdos out. Could actually ping someone else for 1 (of course they get to draw) so you can cast Rakdos.
Another couple of lifegain options that aren't too off-base. Suffer the Past will exile all the cards someone has been discarding, hit their life total, up your life total, and of course enable you to cast Rakdos if you cast play it for a smaller amount. Batterskull wouldn't be horrible here. You can sac the germ token to Braids or whatever, and the pump/vigilance/lifelink is pretty nice. Also, though it's mana intensive, you can return it to your hand and recast it to sac the germ again. (Black Market would make that easily doable. Black Market would get huge in this deck.)
I'm assuming you considered Megrim effects and decided that would divide the deck a bit too much. But there's always that possibility.
People are going to come gunning for you, maybe Dread to discourage them from losing what creatures they have left.
Good luck with the deck!
WUBRG Some of these decks can actually win games...WUBRG
How I know I should build a deck:
Yeah, I usually opt for Graveborn Muse and Bloodgift Demon over Dark Confidant, but this deck really wants a lot of creatures 3cc and under to make T4 Rakdos as often as possible. He's just cheap enough to get into the red zone at the time when, more than likely, someone at the table won't have anything to block. However, testing proxies of the deck leads me to want more steady card draw than I have now, and so I will probably put in SOFAI and Graveborn Muse pretty soon, maybe something more expensive like Bloodgift Demon as well. I just resent Blue and Green for getting things like Sturmgeist and Ohran Viper, grrr.
I've also noticed the need for a bit of lifegain somewhere in the deck. Jitte and SOLAS aren't strong enough to rescue me usually, and Batterskull is almost worth it just because of Godo alone, but otherwise it's just so mana intensive for this deck. I wish there were some black lifelinker worth playing, other than Grizzlebanned, lol.
Megrim effects I've never really liked. 4 mana for a card that will do 6-8 damage to 3 players on its good games, I just don't see the room for. I'd rather play Geth's Grimoire, if anything.
A couple cards that I'm definitely going to include are Imperial Recruiter and Myojin of Infinite Rage. I picked up a Recruiter for my Animar deck, so no issue there, and he'd be really great in here with Braids. Myojin is just the thing I'm looking for to get a bit more LD.
Whatever I build from my Box-o-EDH stuff
Legacy
Sneak and Show
UR Delver
Scapeshift Nic Fit
Modern
Merfolk
WUBRG Some of these decks can actually win games...WUBRG
How I know I should build a deck:
I'm more worried about consistency in general. I'm pretty confident the game plan is good when it works. Here's a few 3cc and below creatures that have caught my eye:
Jaya Ballard, Task Mage - pretty good alongside things like Squee and other discardables, and as many ways to deal with Consecrated Sphinx the better. Not sure it's quite good enough though.
Myr Retriever - nice recursion effect while feeding Braids, gets better with recursion like Oversold Cemetery.
Magus of the Moon - nuff said. Might as well embrace the hate. Two color leaning so heavily toward Black with the basics can probably swing it.
Moriok Replica - could probably replace Sign in Blood with this.
Pilgrim's Eye - another cantrip'per at 3, and an evasive one.
Goblin Sharpshooter - great against tokens, at the expense of being niche. Triggering Rakdos is a secondary use that might just put it into general playability.
Mana dorks like Basal Sliver - a Dark Ritual worth of mana the turn after they're played. Ideally they would get in, sac themselves post-combat to play Rakdos, then there's a few mana left over for a discounted creature.
Undertaker - basically Tortured Existence on a stick, so in a deck where being a stick is useful for attacking undefended players, it might be decent. I don't really like the prospect of it getting swept, since recursion is supposed to come in after said sweeps, but it's worth a shot if my disruption is good.
Looks like I have to experiment with what I want to take out also. Any suggestions?
Those three I like best. Moriok is definitely a good replacement for Sign in Blood.Myr Retriever is also a good, more so with Smokestack And Magus of the Moon is great against some decks and has awesome art! I don't know what other nonbasics you want to run though, so I don't know how much it would hurt yourself.
BRGWTana and TymnaBRGW
RTeneb, the EternalR
UBRNekusar, Mind RazerUBR
Rakdos, Lord of Riots
BGWGhave, Guru of SporesBGW
Aurelia, the Warleader
BDrana, Kalastria BloodchiefB
WBROros, the AvengerWBR
OUT:
Mindclaw Shaman - Hit and miss ordinarily, in a discard deck a whiff is even more probable.
Helm of Possession - Good with all the fodder, but its effective cost of 6 is a bit too much for comfort.
Hell's Caretaker - Another card that's good with tokens, but it seems like it just needs too many things to come together, and it's fragile to boot.
Butcher of Malakir - It's not what I need a lot of the time
Dwarven Blastminer - Too mana intensive, and fragile.
Solemn Simulacrum - Just a bit too expensive, and I rarely need the ramp.
Chandra the Firebrand - it seemed like the only thing it was doing was enabling Rakdos, since I generally didn't have enough mana to copy a spell, even if I drew one.
Grim Tutor - Too expensive to fix my opener, and this isn't the kind of deck that needs to make a certain card every game.
Lodestone Golem - Isn't doing enough without support, and the discard sort of pulls against it since people are less often casting multiple spells per turn
Rakdos Signet, Fire Diamond, Charcoal Diamond, Talisman of Indulgence, Coalition Relic - these need a bit of explanation, but I'm not sure I have it. I've just simply noticed that my openers with mana rocks are not very good. The more early mana I use the better, and the initial investment of the casting cost doesn't pay off later. And if I do hit my land destruction, having one or two rocks doesn't really put me in a clearly superior position.
Desolation - this one kind of hurts. I really want to like it more, but it has just seemed to hurt me too much and to allow my opponents to play around it too easily. If I play it early, I lose a land, delay Rakdos a turn or more, and then no one casts anything but me until around turn 6, where control is ripped from my grasp by a bomb. If I play it late, it's removed, or Rakdos is removed, and its effect is too slow to rescue a game for this deck.
IN:
Myojin of Infinite Rage - I've actually been playing this for a while in substitution for one thing or another, and it's performed excellently. Rakdos into this is game nearly every time.
Imperial Recruiter - turns into Braids, Squee or basically anything else this deck needs. Pretty clear that he'll do well here.
Myr Retriever - I expect it will be good to have recursion for my key artifacts somewhere in the deck, 2 is a key mana cost here, and he may be able to swing to enable Rakdos.
Chandra Ablaze - this will be the first time I try this card, seems like it will fit. The deck's capable of draws where you hit little or no discard, and you sit around scratching your head. The -2 ability seems like it would work to force several cards discarded, maybe drawing you some in the process. I'm already running Squee besides.
Moriok Replica - Sign in Blood on what's basically a morph creature, can be used to enable Rakdos or cast for free with him. I expect he'll perform well.
Tortured Existence - the deck seems creature-heavy enough to do it, and the cmc's are pretty disparate besides. I want to see cards like Oversold Cemetery and Phyrexian Reclamation more often in this deck.
Vengeful Pharaoh - more discard fodder, seems like a serviceable No Mercy effect that's free to use.
Krovikan Horror - I really need a Squee effect more often, and this seems like it could enable Rakdos quite reliably in a pinch also.
Shivan Harvest - better than the Blastminer here, seems like it could be quite disruptive.
Magus of the Moon, Blood Moon - I'm hoping this will work better than the Desolation route. It doesn't hurt me at all, and there's a lot of 3 and 5 color decks I've seen that would rip their hair out over it. Magus is also a T3 beater that can activate a T4 Rakdos.
Winter Orb - I've played this card before, and I've always been impressed with its ability to equalize games where Smokestack can't. And it seems like this deck itself wants to function on a small amount of mana, not none.
Sword of Fire and Ice, Sword of Feast and Famine - A lot of the time I want to give the fodder more things to do. SOFIA draws, SOFAF discards, even though its odd to see that effect take precedence. Both also reduce the clock on Rakdos from 4 turns to 3.
Platinum Emperion - I feel that this is just the card I need aside from Wurmcoil to hedge against a lot of the pain I'm taking. Good in itself besides as a must-remove within the type of game where removal is quickly spent.
Updates to follow.
I also found a Buried Alive in my list, didn't see it above, and I haven't taken the time to figure out what has its place. Typical move now is BA into Vengeful Pharaoh, Squee, Bloodghast - it covers my face, my hand and my board.
I still seem to be too creature light for my taste. Oversold Cemetery now works only as a late game plan, and it usually won't work more than one turn in a row unless something dies before my upkeep triggers. I'm not sure what to do about this, since most of the creatures I've considered have been dismissed, and most of what's in there in their place are cards that should be keeping me drawing. I'm not sure I even want to go above the 33 creatures I have now, I just wish I had more consistency.
Oh and in case people are wondering, I have faced Karador a few times, and yes, it is a bit in his favor right now. But the good news is that it's not a blowout for the reasons one might think. Discard still hurts him quite a bit, and it seems that he can't fill his graveyard as fast as he'd like when he's throwing away cards so early. The problem is the amount of recursive removal so many of these decks run. If I can keep Karador expensive enough to stay off the table, he stalls, but the same is true for his killing my Rakdos, and he just has more cards to do it with. The one advantage I have here is that Rakdos comes down T5'ish nearly every game, which is a few turns earlier than his commander. It's sort of a face-off that way, which is actually kind of fun. In my own group Karador is not played nearly as much as he used to be, since the speed of our decks nowadays really kills him, but when facing randoms I see him here and there. I think the more Stax'ish Karador tries to be the more he starts enabling our deck than vice-versa, which is good since that's the direction I see more and more Karador players going.
Oh, and I still have to update the list in the OP.
EDH Arsenal:
Omnath, Locus of ManaG
Sigarda, Host of HeronsWG
Jhoira of the GhituUR
Nicol BolasUBR
Ruhan of the FomoriWUR
Reaper KingWUBRG
Geist of St. TraftWUBasandra, Battle SeraphWRProgenitusWUBRGI remember that as being on my short list at one point, but for whatever reason I opted out of it. But now that I think on it, it's probably better here than it would be anywhere else, seeing as there's plenty of 2/x's and that people are apt to throw away enchantment kill to the discard. I'll have to find room.
Rakdos is suppose to help you bring your creature in a cheap way, I will try to build my deck, really close to what you have but more on the mana screwing side of the fence and give you feedback on it.
I had Desolation in there for a while, but it was either so early that it hurt me the worst by far, or so late that it never ended up making a significant impact on anyone, since they'd discarded way down already and weren't playing a lot. I'm sure that Contamination would be a great post-Rakdos play here, but that's just one of those cards I'd prefer didn't exist, and I have Blood Moon besides, which hurts me less.
But the way it's played out also, this amount of discard has the indirect effect of keeping lands on the field down. A lot of players throw their lands away when discard hits them early, because they figure that Recurring Insight will get them there, then it ends up taking them too long to cast it. This deck doesn't like to see a few specific cards like Land Tax, Crucible of Worlds and Life from the Loam, but the discard does indeed help notwithstanding.
Besides, there's Keldon Firebombers, Winter Orb, Shivan Harvest, Myojin, 2 Stax effects, and 3 Pox effects already in here, and I'm just not sure what else is good along those lines. There's Boom/Bust and Impending Disaster, but this deck has little land recursion of its own, so having no land means we can't play anything, even at the discounted cost.
Let me know how your experience with the deck goes.
maralen of the mornsong
Strangehold
you also have acces to creature control because you have red
animator for black
and then a pretty good combo for a main kill condition
Triskellion
Mikaeus the unhollowed
EDH - UWGrand Arbiter Agustin IV
UBW Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Modern - Mono U tron / Polymorph / NFTW (ninja for the win)GR tron GR
Buy All the Dual Lands!!!
Buy All the fetches!
Create tons of EDH Decks!!!
Eat Nothing but Oats!! (LOL, not true)
Train MMA!!!
Marry My girlfriend!!!
Get her Pregnant only Once!
Teach my Son/Daughter Sports and magic cards!!!
Continue my legacy son!!!/Daughter!!
Mikaeus could be very good in this deck, and of course with him comes Trike. That would be an option for some additional finishing power, certainly. I'm also looking at Sorin Markhov for a little bit of get-me-there.
Bottomless pit.
megrim (same effects)
power surge
manabarbs
anvil of bogardan
underworld dreams
Hollowborn Barghest
Cheap shots that pisses your opponent. LOL
EDH - UWGrand Arbiter Agustin IV
UBW Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Modern - Mono U tron / Polymorph / NFTW (ninja for the win)GR tron GR
Buy All the Dual Lands!!!
Buy All the fetches!
Create tons of EDH Decks!!!
Eat Nothing but Oats!! (LOL, not true)
Train MMA!!!
Marry My girlfriend!!!
Get her Pregnant only Once!
Teach my Son/Daughter Sports and magic cards!!!
Continue my legacy son!!!/Daughter!!
Well as mentioned, I've never had a high opinion of Megrim effects, same with other punisher cards like Underworld Dreams, Manabarbs, etc. Something that just deals damage could end up doing nothing more than upsetting people, and that means we lose. I'm curious to know what other peoples' experiences are with these cards, but my expectations are not at all high, so I'll be leaving the testing to others. If I were to run something like this it would probably be Sorin, which I probably will test at some point, or Havoc Festival, which seems to have more effect than the others but still probably falls short.
Anvil of Bogardan is interesting however. Even though you probably mentioned it only as going alongside Megrim/Underworld Dreams, it could be sort of a one-sided Howling Mine for us, since we wouldn't have trouble finding things like Squee to discard profitably. The only downside is that it does give our opponents better chances of drawing something that's going to be most useful to them, especially in the later stages where their hands are all empty.
Manabarbs is. a. house. Seriously, it will do so much damage unless someone has a quick way to kill it. Very powerful.
aaaaa. but you forgot, you can also put sphere effects to better stop your opponents from winning, plus you have land destruction in your colors.
EDH - UWGrand Arbiter Agustin IV
UBW Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Modern - Mono U tron / Polymorph / NFTW (ninja for the win)GR tron GR
Buy All the Dual Lands!!!
Buy All the fetches!
Create tons of EDH Decks!!!
Eat Nothing but Oats!! (LOL, not true)
Train MMA!!!
Marry My girlfriend!!!
Get her Pregnant only Once!
Teach my Son/Daughter Sports and magic cards!!!
Continue my legacy son!!!/Daughter!!
Modern:
:symu::symw::symr: UWr Geist :symr::symw::symu:
EDH:
:symb::symb::symr::symr: Rakdos, Lord of Riots :symr::symr::symb::symb:
Is there any updates?
Arahbo, Kitty Kat Beatdown Decklist
Mizzix of the Izmagnus Decklist
Breya, Etherium Shaper
Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow Decklist
My Current Set Cube Lists:
Kamigawa Re-Experience
Ravnica, City of Guilds Re-Experience
Alara Re-Experience
I'll update some time this afternoon.
I am conflicted. I like playing big, stupid Rakdos but this 'smart' Rakdos is intriguing. I want to see how you've shaped Rakdos.
Mid-Tier: Marchesa Aggro Rose Asmadi Get Dire Tymna Ikra Woke Women Tiana Aura Angel Ruric Thar SMASH Smasher Kraum Mana Positivity Zur Slides
Filthy Casual: WUBRG Jodah WUBRG WUBRG Fatties WUBRG Gahiji Vigilant Vengeance Ezuri Mysterious Morphs
I got a chuckle out of your piece on giving some therapy to those who are trying to go all in with this deck while playing it safe. I've only played my version twice, and I kept my curve fairly low as I wasn't sure how it would play. I've since upped the heft of a few of my creatures, including the two best recurrable Eldrazi you have in your build. It's interesting to me that I reached some of the same conclusions you did as I've been puttering with the deck for awhile and hadn't looked at your build again until now.
What do you think of Stinkweed Imp? A good card to enable a turn 3 or 4 Rakdos, to sac to a pox effect, to fill your graveyard with recursion fodder.
The red Myojin is indeed awesome, but finding room for Keldon Firebombers might be worth a thought as well. Will work off Sneak Attack, will leave you 3 land to keep using Sneak Attack, will most likely elicit a scoop if you have It That Betrays out.
I forget if we talked about Nim Deathmantle, but seems really good with Sneak Attack.
Am considering Chandra Ablaze. All abilities are relevant to this deck, but she costs 6 without any discount in a deck that already is heavy on the curve if we can't get to our cheat cards.
I'm still working the demon tribal angle, because I'm a sucker for tribal, but I'll be bringing my version next time I play to give it another try. Link in my signature has the newer version, give it a look-see.
WUBRG Some of these decks can actually win games...WUBRG
How I know I should build a deck: