Ok so I want to try to go all out on an Animar build. I was sort of thinking mass LD might be a good route to take. I have a lot of wrath effects in my meta so I will have to be very careful in the build.
I plan on building this deck to the max so there is no discussion of ethics, if it is the best strategy for the deck please speak up. I want to make him into a monster. If I am willing to go with Mass LD then clearly I am pulling out the strings. Resource denial will be a big part of this decklist.
Thanks for all of the help that I have recieved so far on this deck. We have had a lot of good discussion on this decklist and I appreciate hearing some reasons behind why you feel a card is worthy of inclusion. I have really stripped this deck back down to what I feel that my basic deck plan is which is resource deprivation + artifact / creature ramp. I originally had a lot of combos in the deck but I felt that it was diluting the primary goal of the deck and so they were cut.
Yeah he is awesome. I knew when I looked at him that mass LD was going to be so nuts with him as a cost reducer.
Since you're all cutthroat, you know a popped Defense of the Heart wins you the game, right (Kiki+Exarch)? It's a one-card combo and you're bound to catch some people with their pants down early with it.
You look like you could use some more ways to get him pumped up. Cycled Decree of Savagery maybe but that might be a little too narrow? I'd look for some more ways to get easy counters on him. The only thing you're really doing to support him is playing creatures- I think you can get more mileage out of him than that. This might be one of the few decks where I'd consider Inexorable Tide.
Yeah he is awesome. I knew when I looked at him that mass LD was going to be so nuts with him as a cost reducer.
Since you're all cutthroat, you know a popped Defense of the Heart wins you the game, right (Kiki+Exarch)? It's a one-card combo and you're bound to catch some people with their pants down early with it.
You look like you could use some more ways to get him pumped up. Cycled Decree of Savagery maybe but that might be a little too narrow? I'd look for some more ways to get easy counters on him. The only thing you're really doing to support him is playing creatures- I think you can get more mileage out of him than that.
Oh I ninja edited the Exarch out for Pestermite. While the extra toughness is decent if I have to emergency use the card to defend myself or attack with it I would rather have a flyer as it gives me a potential extra blocker from those who have flying as their evasion. Ground pounders often have trample / annihilate which would blow me over.
Good call on the Defense. It is a high profile target but again it is an easy way to just say oops I win. I will need to find a spot for it in the list.
Hmmmm I would love to get some alternative ways in which to get counters on him. Sadly all of the cards that I see sort of feel too narrow when I really examine them. A few that I could consider are the 2 lands for abusing the persist creatures. They should do a decent job of getting him started at least.
I had looked a bit at Forgotten Ancient also as a means of super fast counters. I honestly don't feel he will stick to the board though... I draw a lot of hate in just about every game I play. His lack of any immediate impact sort of makes me sad.
Inexorable Tide - Hummm... its soooo bad though... I will think about this card, but seriously this card just seems Jank. I know it would get me there but god its bad.
I think for now I am back to the drawing board if they will get on the list at all.
A few things sort of on the wishlist that I dont know if they will make it or not are as follows currently:
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre Solves any permenant on being cast plus gives me an indestructable annihilator. I like him but I dont want to top load too much of my deck. I am building a lot of mass LD to really rely on this big old dude. Still he makes my wishlist.
Rancor reusable trample for my commander. I love how difficult this card is to actually get rid of when you use it on a spot removal resistant creature.
Fecundity obviously I run a lot of creatures and I sort of plan on being wrathed some. This is a good way to pick up the slack from a wrath.
Lurking Predators I have a ton of creatures in here for this to interact with... Still I just cant quite say if it belongs here.
I think for now I will work on getting Defense of the Heart, Rancor, and Fecundity into the decklist. Ohhh and those 2 lands I suppose. Let me know if you have any other suggestions.
First thing I think of is Tooth and Nail and Avenger of Zendikar. Really nice with Primeval Titan. Also, card advantage is nice. You can throw in a Regal Force or a Mind Over Matter/Temple Bell combo (you can also deck an opponent like that) or an eldrazi of some type, like Kozilek, Butcher of Truth for shuffling your graveyard into the deck, to keep the cycle going. There's also Doubling Season+more plainswalkers. A Jace or two would be nice for keeping card advantage up. Doubling Season in general is awesome for any counter-based (or token-based!) strategy. Seriously, more drawing is great for a general who can poop out creatures at a record rate.
Those are all question-marked because I don't know if any of them are good enough for you. Plaxcaster Frogling seems like he could be really good though.
And you're right about inexorable tide- I was just grasping at straws there.
Have you thought about Glimpse of Nature and Primordial Sage? Again, both will punish you for getting wrathed but at least you get some cards out of the deal. Frankly, Animar's just not going to be that good in a wrath-heavy meta unless you hit your mass LD. Maybe you should play more of that? Or at least Mystical Tutor (ugggh not enough targets)? Destructive Force will probably kill Animar though...
First thing I think of is Tooth and Nail and Avenger of Zendikar. Really nice with Primeval Titan. Also, card advantage is nice. You can throw in a Regal Force or a Mind Over Matter/Temple Bell combo (you can also deck an opponent like that) or an eldrazi of some type, like Kozilek, Butcher of Truth for shuffling your graveyard into the deck, to keep the cycle going. There's also Doubling Season+more plainswalkers. A Jace or two would be nice for keeping card advantage up. Seriously, more drawing is great for a general who can poop out creatures at a record rate.
Tooth and Nail I want soooo bad to put this on the list. My big worry is the fact that I do love haveing a lot of mass LD on my list and I am a bit concerned with hitting 7-9 mana for this one. I have thought it over a bit though and realistically I will end up paying quite some mana to try to use Chord of Calling as well. Sure there might be the occasional tons of creatures to conspire it out but usually not. I think I will try to bring in Tooth and Nail for this spot as a test. I wouldnt mind picking up a few more mana stones though to potentially be able to do this though.
Avenger of Zendikar Honestly I thought about him as I was making the list. It comes down to the fact that he doesnt help me deprive my opponents of resources. Most of the high end creatures either go infinite or deprive my opponents of resources. I am going to be somewhat vulnerable to wrathing in this deck currently and I would rather deprive resources on my big guys than I would spit out an army who is prone to wraths.
Regal Force I have tried him before. Sadly I am not too impressed with him outside of token decks. I know he is fun to tooth and nail into with Avenger but my meta is wrath happy so I am trying to combat that and this guy doesnt help me too much for doing so. Plus he shouldn't really be added unless Avenger is going in as well.
I love me some Mind Over Matter/Temple Bell. Sadly I have so little way of tutoring it up. Both of the combo pieces sort of tottally suck on their own for this deck as well. If I had black and or white tossed in or was running Azami I would be all over this.
Doubling Season - sadly I just dont have much support for it right now. I cant think of much else for planeswalkers that I would really want. If I did more token action or planeswalkers I would consider it. Currently though it would mainly just give my commander 2 counters for each creature dropped. Even then it is sounding better than Inexorable Tide
Those are all question-marked because I don't know if any of them are good enough for you. Plaxcaster Frogling seems like he could be really good though.
And you're right about inexorable tide- I was just grasping at straws there.
Have you thought about Glimpse of Nature and Primordial Sage? Again, both will punish you for getting wrathed but at least you get some cards out of the deal. Frankly, Animar's just not going to be that good in a wrath-heavy meta unless you hit your mass LD. Maybe you should play more of that? Or at least Mystical Tutor (ugggh not enough targets)? Destructive Force will probably kill Animar though...
Strength of the Tajuru this one is sort of interesting. I am actually leaning towards the Decree of Savagery to tell you the truth though. I like that it replaces itself and honestly I dont really intend to get to crazy high mana so its not like I plan on hitting a strength for 10 counters or anything.
Plaxcaster Frogling sort of cool due to the shroud part, but Animar is pro black and white meaning he is already protected from a lot of spot removal. I have very little bounce or red burn in my meta so he should be fine from spot removal. I think I will pass on the frog.
Forcemage Advocate I sort of draw a lot of hate and this is slow. I dont like giving things back to people. I think there are better outlets.
Fungal Behemoth sort of interesting but a counter a turn isnt something that I am too excited about. Now that you mention suspend creatures though, I had sort of been considering Greater Gargadon as he is a total champ at running through mass LD to just slapstick an opponent.
Spike Weaver I had actually sort of considered him. I dont think I would run any of the other spikes as they sort of suck but he might make the list.
Glimpse of Nature interesting card. I wish it didnt end at the end of turn but it could make for some cool turns. I wish it would draw a card for playing itself as well though because I could just see it being a dead card.
Primordial Sage I like him. He does have some potential for the deck. I might see if he can make the list for testing.
The card that I came up with to possibly be tested is Blade of the Bloodchief I like how it triggers off of everyone's creatures dying, it is tutorable off of several of my artifact tutors such as Tezzeret and Trinket Mage as well as Godo. The counters stay on the creature as well so if someone strips my equipment I still keep my progress so far. And if someone does wrath I can hopefully get it going again quickly.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I absolutely LOVE Greater Gargadon. He will honestly be your best protection against control magic alongside Greater Good and if you drop that LD while he's suspended you are golden. And I forgot about Blade of the Bloodchief- that's a fantastic choice. Trinket Mage is hilarious with it.
The other stuff I mentioned? Like I said, I was just brainstorming. Lots of it sucked but I figured it would be cool to bring it up just to see if it brought on any other ideas.
I had looked a bit at Forgotten Ancient also as a means of super fast counters. I honestly don't feel he will stick to the board though... I draw a lot of hate in just about every game I play. His lack of any immediate impact sort of makes me sad.
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre Solves any permenant on being cast plus gives me an indestructable annihilator. I like him but I dont want to top load too much of my deck. I am building a lot of mass LD to really rely on this big old dude. Still he makes my wishlist.
Rancor reusable trample for my commander. I love how difficult this card is to actually get rid of when you use it on a spot removal resistant creature.
Fecundity obviously I run a lot of creatures and I sort of plan on being wrathed some. This is a good way to pick up the slack from a wrath.
Lurking Predators I have a ton of creatures in here for this to interact with... Still I just cant quite say if it belongs here.
All of these are incredible in your deck.
I cannot stress how good Oran-Rief is with anything with Persist. Pop the Rief on a Woodfall Primus and you have one hell of a tough to wipe permanent destroying machine.
Your deck is in prime territory for Lurking Predators, too. Even if it doesn't exactly trigger off Animar's ability, it works so well in a deck as creature heavy as yours its ridiculous.
Other cards you may want to consider are Cloudstone Curio, Glimpse of Nature, Priest of Urabrask (goes infinite with Cloudstone Curio and 1 "free" or a creature that ends up having a casting cost of R or less after Animar), and some other fairly "degenerate" things.
Tidespout Tyrant can also explode off of Animar's abilities or an infinite creature combo of any kind, like the one mentioned above.
Birthing Pod might be a worthy addition. That's one more questionable, though.
I absolutely LOVE Greater Gargadon. He will honestly be your best protection against control magic alongside Greater Good and if you drop that LD while he's suspended you are golden. And I forgot about Blade of the Bloodchief- that's a fantastic choice. Trinket Mage is hilarious with it.
The other stuff I mentioned? Like I said, I was just brainstorming. Lots of it sucked but I figured it would be cool to bring it up just to see if it brought on any other ideas.
Not a problem I love brainstorming, it gives me new perspective on things I might have otherwise not thought about. I will see if I can get GG into the deck, I go back and forth on him. The real power behind my commander is to reduce the actual cost of things so big guys like Eldrazi are appealing. While GG is great when paired with mass LD as he can sweep up the land and haste out of nowhere, Assuming my commander is out I could otherwise just drop an eldrazi or something. I will continue to think about him but to be honest I have some 4-5 big guys that I am on the fence about. It is hard to rely on my commander being in play and leveled up in order to cast these things out.
I cannot stress how good Oran-Rief is with anything with Persist. Pop the Rief on a Woodfall Primus and you have one hell of a tough to wipe permanent destroying machine.
Your deck is in prime territory for Lurking Predators, too. Even if it doesn't exactly trigger off Animar's ability, it works so well in a deck as creature heavy as yours its ridiculous.
Other cards you may want to consider are Cloudstone Curio, Glimpse of Nature, Priest of Urabrask (goes infinite with Cloudstone Curio and 1 "free" or a creature that ends up having a casting cost of R or less after Animar), and some other fairly "degenerate" things.
Tidespout Tyrant can also explode off of Animar's abilities or an infinite creature combo of any kind, like the one mentioned above.
Birthing Pod might be a worthy addition. That's one more questionable, though.
Cloudstone Curio - I do like this card for this deck. I had actually been thinking about Equilibrium earlier but I think this one might actually be better for me. My main objective is to rotate creatures as fast as possible.
Priest of Urabrask sort of an interesting guy here. My biggest problem is the fact that I dont really over use red creatures and he is sort of a fail creature without comboing off. He feels like a bad Palinchron to me. I think it is cute and I had looked at him before in a Kiki-Jiki deck but to be honest I dont see him as having that big of an impact. I would usually rather this just be a creature tutor.
Tidespout Tyrant I have thought about this guy already actually. I love the idea of using my top + future sight with this to just roll opponents permenants back into hand. Sadly though he competes with a lot of other high end creatures for this deck. So my problems here is that he does nothing on his own, If I have a good hand setup for him to roll off the bounce then he is amazing, I could just as likely have nothing to do with him. He doesnt work all that great on his own and I dont have as much tutoring in here as I would really like to use him well. I feel like he works better in a deck with access to B as they can tutor into combos easier with him. I would love to use him but I think he relies too much on things to be working for me.
Birthing Pod I honestly don't have too much for means of tutoring. I had really wanted to run Tooth and Nail and or Chord of Calling but I have a feeling that both of them will require too much mana sunk into them to work. Looking at this though, I have tons of creatures in this deck at all sorts of mana costs. I think I might be able to make some use out of this. I will give it a shot.
Ok well that covers responses, I have to run over some cards that I feel are questionable in the deck and cards that need to be considered so far that we have talked about as well as some cards I had been currious about.
POTENTIAL CUTS: Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur I really like this guy but considering I have no means of trying to resurect him and little means to protect him I am actually thinking I might be better off running an Eldrazi in his place. I like the Eldrazi because they give me immediate results and the annihilate on them adds to my resource denial tactic.
Mystic Snake It is honestly somewhat difficult to cast him out. Even if my commander is up and rolling he will still cost 3 for a creature that is somewhat of a bad threat.
Relic of Progenitus Considering I am rolling with land deprival I dont know if I need to be overly worried if someone has access to their yards. I dont see a whole lot of Crucible of Words / Life from the Loam in my meta so exiling opposing lands isnt really an issue.
Chord of Calling I have decided that I feel like this will cost me too much mana to cast. I really want more tutors for this deck but I have been having issues getting ones that will work with this deck's plan.
Life From the Loam I like this spell but if I blow up all the lands I would rather have Crucible of Worlds in play almost every time over this card. Also I don't have like any support for dredge in this deck. I have very little recursion, and just dont know how this will pan out. I think bottom line is I sort of want to cut it.
Wildfire hitting everyone for 4 lands doesnt really punish the ramp abusers enough. Also I might have some problems getting beyond the 4 damage to all creatures myself. Due to that I think this might go for something else.
POTENTIAL ADDS: Defense of the Heart Cheap to cast and there is the chance to just do the ha I win with infinite flyers. If I don't want to do that I could always go and get Keldon Firebombers + Primeval Titan to run away with the land war.
Fecundity Quick easy card draw. I have a lot of creatures and I expect I will still catch a few wraths even if I try really hard to blow up their stuff.
Lurking Predators I really would love to get this into the deck. I have seen this thing go down in flames a lot but honestly it protects itself to some extent as it still cheats a few guys in before it gets delt with. I can remember one game where a buddy of mine ramped to it on turn 3 and he went first. The next spell had him flip over a Terastodon who stripped resources. I think it might be worth giving a shot.
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre V Kozilek, Butcher of Truth So I obviously don't have room for both of these guys. So lets do a quick run through of the 2 of them. First Ulamog when cast gives me a destroy ability which adds to the resource denial options. I can use it to remove a problematic art / ench / creature / waler as well though which is a good option. Indestructibility on him allows me a less wrath / spot removal vulnerable target as well. Kozilek gives me 4 cards on being cast which is great for refilling my fuel to attack. As much as I would like to give Jin his time in the spotlight, I have no way to abuse him and little means of protecting him. I think the bottom line I am going to go with Ulamog due to his difficulty to be delt with.
Bloodbraid Elf So I sort of revisit this guy every time I build a deck, this might finally be the deck for him. I counted up the cards in my deck, after the cuts I intend to make I have 20 good targets for him and 3 bad ones. That equates to an 87% chance to hit a good target with him. I think I want to give him a shot. If I am reading Cascade correctly, it still casts the second spell so I can potentially double trigger my commander with him.
Birthing Pod I like that I can cycle off some of my CIP creatures to try to get to other effects. I dont have much tutoring in this deck so I like to take these low cost effects where I can get them.
Oran-Rief, the Vastwood I think for now I will add Oran Rief and pass on Novijen, Heart of Progress. The rief gives me green mana and activates easier than Novjien. While it comes in tapped, in a 3 colored deck I find tapping for colored mana to be more beneficial.
DIDNT MAKE THIS CUT: (cards I am still considering but just didnt make this round)
Forgotten Ancient his biggest issue just being that he is slow to operate. I cannot move his counters until my own upkeep and he draw a lot of hate.
Rancor cheap reusable trample for my commander. Sadly I would rather have more resource denial tactics than the option for my commander to crush through.
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth I don't have much room for the really big fatties in this list. I think that he is cool but I really have to select what will work best for this deck in these big guys.
Primordial Sage I think he is sort of cool but again being at 6 mana it better make or break the deck. Most of my guys at 6+ mana I try to have them do something on their own. The fact that this guy works over time and would achieve nothing if he gets wrathed makes me like him slightly less.
Greater Gargadon As good as he is with mass LD, my commander throws his ability off a bit. Usually mass LD decks try to blow up everything and cheat a few guys in after the fact. Sadly, I just dont see this deck making advantage of this guy as much.
Blade of the Bloodchief decent way to put counters on my commander. Sadly I dont have a lot of control over things dying to put counters on him. Considering how much I see wrath effects I cut this one at the last second. It is still on my radar but I dont know if it is right for my meta. I think I would rather another mass LD effect makes my list over this.
Cloudstone CurioI do like the ability to just continuously cast a few artifact creatures that this could achieve. Sadly I dont have that many artifact creatures in this deck. I think this is cool but it just didn't stand out enough to make the cut this time. (I should probably RTFK closer. Still, it seems like a combo piece to set up with a number of other cards. I like how I can abuse creatures using it but I might be more prone to just putting in more creatures that bounce things and use them in lue. I will keep thinking about it but this feels like a combo piece for an overly elaborate combo. Thanks for the correction on this Sonik you were right for once :P)
Man-o'-War I like how he can flicker himself for one mana once I get my commander powered up. For U I can give my commander a counter which is cool and I might still consider this as I can reuse a CIP trigger or bounce a problem creature after my LD.
Primal Command Sort of spendy to cast and difficult to do much else the turn I cast it. I like the versatility and 5 mana to tutor seems slightly more manageable.
EDIT: Tooth and Nail sorry I didnt mention this one for some reason. To be honest I have a problem with this because I plan on blowing up lands a lot. I love love love this spell but if I am up to 7+ mana then someone else is far higher and it is time to blow lands. I have my commander to hopefully assist in getting the larger creatures into play but I find it a bit of a stretch to believe I will make it to 9 mana too regularly.
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Ok well that is the rundown currently. I have 6 effects that I am willing to cut and 6 cards + 1 land that I am sort of trying to get into the deck. Let me know if you feel that one of the cards in consideration or a seperate card altogether belongs in the deck more than what I have suggested.
Just a note on Cloudstone Curio: It actually DOESN'T work on artifact permanents. So it's still OK with you if you think you have a spot for a bounce outlet.
/can't believe I have actually corrected you for once
Ohhh snap, you are right lol. Any thoughts on my list of cuts / going in though? I sort of want to update the list but I wanted to see if anyone felt strongly on any of the changes first.
One of the other points that I am surprised that nobody has made so far is I should probably put a Survival of the Fittest in here... I have sort of been skirting arround it as it would require me to buy yet another but I think it is that solid for the deck that I do need to honestly find a spot for it on the list. I have such a high creature curve though that it needs to hit the list as well.
In addition I have been thinking about adding another few mana rocks to the list. I think another 2-3 might be beneficial.
EDIT: Sorry this is like the 4th time I have edited this post to be honest. I think I am going to cut Arcane Denial for Survival of the Fittest. I wanted to put in some control elements but I think I will just take my 2 tuck counters + creature counterspells and hope for the best.
EDIT 2: Ok so I put in an order for cards. I dropped $50 towards this deck but considering that is about the only investment I have made other than preordering the mirror mastery commander deck which has homeward path anywhays which I wanted I would say this deck is coming together fairly nicely. I got a VG Survival for $17 which should be plenty good enough for me. I should have somewhere arround 90% of the cards for this deck once I get the shipment + my commander boxes.
Inexorable Tide is so underrated since no one cares about removing it. However, there are only 2 things that would benefit your deck so that doesn't fit in.
I think you can drop 1 signet and put in Fabricate.
I had cut Jin as well in one of my late cuts of my Animar Deck and decided to put Edric in.
Another card people have suggested to me since I run Cloudstone Curio is Equilibrium which is basically Unsummon for 1 every time I cast a creature.
Destructive Force is just like Wildfire except 1 more damage and 1 more land.
Inexorable Tide is so underrated since no one cares about removing it. However, there are only 2 things that would benefit your deck so that doesn't fit in.
I think you can drop 1 signet and put in Fabricate.
I had cut Jin as well in one of my late cuts of my Animar Deck and decided to put Edric in.
Another card people have suggested to me since I run Cloudstone Curio is Equilibrium which is basically Unsummon for 1 every time I cast a creature.
Destructive Force is just like Wildfire except 1 more damage and 1 more land.
Inexorable Tide I can understand an underrated art / ench on the board getting to stay, sadly like you said there just isnt that much interaction with the deck and the interaction that it has just seems too narrow to warrant a spot.
Fabricate at first I wasnt too excited by this. Then I realized exactly how much artifact utility I have available in this deck. Using this I could go and get a Winter's Orb, Skullclamp, mana stone, Top, or Darksteel Plate. I think this is going to be fairly high on my list to be added to the deck currently.
Edric - I like the idea of running him. I think he has some good potential. My own personal issue I have with him is that my playgroup often does an attack left style game. That means that I will still get attacked by the usual stuff. He has some good diplomatic aspects to him and unfortunately I cannot reap those benefits. While I like him, he is a bit situational in when he is good. I prefur something that I can assess how it will pan out regardless of how my setup is going.
Equilibrium another good card. I run it in my Jenara deck. Sadly there are a lot of different themes that I am trying to push into this deck and I would rather have room for another mass LD, another tutor, or another mana stone than I really feel like I need this sort of utility.
Destructive Force I am actually pulling Wildfire out of this deck. To be honest these effects probably work best in decks built arround ramping land as they punish those who arent ramping lands more than they hurt themselves. I want effects that set everyones lands to a certain count. This way I am not encouraging ramping. Another problem with these cards is that I dont entirely know how often they will kill my commander. Ideally I want to blow up lands when my commander will live through it and thus help me ramp back into a board position faster than my opponents.
Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger I for one haven't found him to be an inclusion creature in very many decks so far. I do like how he gives me extra mana and deprives my opponents from resources. Sadly he has no immediate impact on my opponents game. If he is removed then he has achieved no impact on my opponents board positions. While I think he has his appropriate place in Omnath and Mayael decks, I just don't find him that impressive.
Out of them though... I would really like to get Fabricate into the deck. Thanks for the ideas though.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Has anybody mentioned Storm Cauldron? I was thinking of running it in my Kaalia deck, because its the same deal, you cast stuff for free, but very vulnerable to removal.
I believe you are wrong when you say that Vorinclex has no immediate effect on your opponents. Trust me, when you see one of those on the other side of the field, you start thinking a lot more carefully about what spells you can afford to cast. He's a huge game-state changer. I would highly recommend using him as much as possible.
Has anybody mentioned Storm Cauldron? I was thinking of running it in my Kaalia deck, because its the same deal, you cast stuff for free, but very vulnerable to removal.
Great idea, I hadn't thought about it at all. Probably the only thing I do not like about it though is if I want to use a mass LD effect when it is in play people can just tap down their land and bounce them in response. Realistically though, if people dont answer it quick it should mess up their land base and their plans. It is one of those effects that if you go to answer it with anything big it will screw you over so I do like this as it is an ongoing effect that can jack with my opponents. Good call on this one. I just need to find a way to get it in now.
I believe you are wrong when you say that Vorinclex has no immediate effect on your opponents. Trust me, when you see one of those on the other side of the field, you start thinking a lot more carefully about what spells you can afford to cast. He's a huge game-state changer. I would highly recommend using him as much as possible.
I am willing to give it a shot as there seem to be several supporters of him. I need to cut something of a similar mana size as I dont want to overload my deck to high mana cards as that can kill me especially with all this mass LD in the deck.
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Ok a few other considerations I had been thinking about reall quick:
Squee, Goblin Nabob first of all he works fantastically with both Survival of the Fittest and Fauna Shaman. He can be ditched to go get other things and he comes back later. Also if needed I can cast him out to help my commander get counters as well as use him as a chump blocker that will return to me. I think he has a lot of utility for my current setup and he works nicely with my commander.
Wheel of Fortune there are a lot of things in this deck that could allow me to dump my hand somewhat quickly. I could also use this to try to go and hit some mass LD. I do have blue for drawing but this is a very big draw for very little mana which this deck likes.
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Ok I have come up with a few cuts on my own for the list. I still need to try to make 2 more cuts though so suggestions would be great.
Elvish Visionary -> Squee, Goblin Nabob while I like the Visionary, I think that Squee gives my deck a bit more staying power. He recurs back to my hand on his own, can power up my commander multiple times over a game, and works fantastically with survival / fauna shaman / birthing pod. I think I will get more use out of squee over the long game than I will the visionary. I also like how it fits a similar mana cost / spot in the deck.
Phyrexian Ingester -> Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger I am willing to give Vorinclex a shot in this deck. I like some of his abilities but am a bit more unsure about how he seems somewhat easy to answer. I am not too happy about cutting one of my creature based removal cards but as he is sort of high mana I am willing to play without him for a bit and see how it goes.
Lightning Greaves -> Fabricate As much as I love the shiney boots, I dont have a whole lot of single creatures that I feel are vulnerable to spot removal. I see a lot of white and black removal and my commander is already protection from them. Blue will probably counter, red is almost dead in my meta, and green has like 1 spell. The only place I can really think of that I would want the boots is to swing in with Primeval Titan and or Ulamog the turns they come in. Other than that I feel like the card isnt overly needed in the deck. While giving haste to hit for damage is nice, it isnt my primary concern for this deck. I would rather have fabricate to go get a darksteel plate for my commander or winters orb / storm cauldron for me.
Also I need to look for 2 more potential cuts for Wheel of Fortune and Storm Cauldron (Through further discussion I have decided against running Storm Cauldron) to come in.
I don't think Storm Cauldron will mess up your land destruction, on the contrary, you will be able to see who is saving up lands to strike, and that is when you blast all his lands.
I don't think Storm Cauldron will mess up your land destruction, on the contrary, you will be able to see who is saving up lands to strike, and that is when you blast all his lands.
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It is great, the only problem being that nobody's lands will ever be tapped. If I drop something like Woodfall Primus or Terastodon I cannot actually hit anyones land as they will just bounce them in response. I still think it is a strong card but it gumms up some of my removal tactics still. The lands I target will still be bounced which is alright but it stops me from removing lands a few at a time.
Due to what I demonstrated above I don't think it is perfect. I like the card still and think I might want to test it out but it does have some drawbacks.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
It is great, the only problem being that nobody's lands will ever be tapped. If I drop something like Woodfall Primus or Terastodon I cannot actually hit anyones land as they will just bounce them in response. I still think it is a strong card but it gumms up some of my removal tactics still. The lands I target will still be bounced which is alright but it stops me from removing lands a few at a time.
Due to what I demonstrated above I don't think it is perfect. I like the card still and think I might want to test it out but it does have some drawbacks.
Yeah you are right, but it gets the lands up.
With Vedalken Orrery you can flash it on an opponents discard phase to hose them.
I really like the Storm Cauldron and I would really love for it to work in here but the more I think about it, I think I might need to pass on it in here.
In most cases it feels like it is probably going to need the interaction of a second card to make it really good. It also screws up a lot of my other destruction in the deck. It is slow to come out and works over time. As much as I love the card, I just don't feel like it is going to fit this deck right now. Thanks for all the discussion on it as I think it helped me work the card over in my mind.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I really want to play Animar, Soul of Elements, but I keep thinking of how much threat he will pull with all the land destruction or even Storm Cauldron. I almost think the best way to play him is in sneak mode, where he explodes when nobody is looking, but even that will be expected. I had the same issue with Kaalia of the Vast too much agro for multi-play and too fragile for 1-on-1.
These are my 3 choices, and only one set of card sleeves.
Ok well to every man his own deck. Lets run down what each commander has for options though.
Animar, Soul of Elements
So arguably he has 2 of the best colors in EDH with him, he has an open route for how you build him, while your opponents will for the most part know you are running agro it is hard to tell what sort of build you will go with exactly here. He is also resistant to spot removal which can be extremely nice. If you want you can tutor up an equipment like Darksteel Plate and give him a means to live through wraths as well.
Kaalia of the Vast
I for one find her to be super cool from a flavor standpoint. Anyone who doesnt feel like being beamed to death in the first few turns will use their spot removal on her though. She has no built in protections and is in somewhat of bad colors to try to protect her. She has black which is one of the better EDH colors but she also has R/W which are the worst of them for EDH. She seems very easy to predict her build and what she will do as well. I feel like she is somewhat of a closed off build considering she only has intereactions with 3 tribes of which there are only a handfull of good creatures in each of which. Bottom line being she is very linear and very predictable. She has only one good color to her and only black to really give good card advantage to. If you dont have one of your big tribe guys in hand she is much weaker. Personally I feel like Mayael the Anima is stronger as she has a more open environment for what goes in her as well as searching deep into your deck for threats.
The above reasons are why I personally do not run Kaalia of the Vast as a commander and instead chose to go with Animar, Soul of Elements. I felt that the colors were better and that the design space for how to build Animar was very wider than Kaalia. They are both agro strategies but I felt like I could put more of a personal twist to Animar.
Also I am putting on the consideration list the following mass LD tactics. I do not know yet if I need more mass LD or need to swap in a few of the following for ones I am currently using but they will be on my radar now:
EDIT: also I am still looking for a means of getting Wheel of Fortune into the deck so I will be skimming my list for some opening. I am sort of thinking a creature might go out for it but I dont know yet. Let me know if you have any ideas. Reasoning for the idea to be cut is appreciated as well.
Ok well to every man his own deck. Lets run down what each commander has for options though.
Animar, Soul of Elements
So arguably he has 2 of the best colors in EDH with him, he has an open route for how you build him, while your opponents will for the most part know you are running agro it is hard to tell what sort of build you will go with exactly here. He is also resistant to spot removal which can be extremely nice. If you want you can tutor up an equipment like Darksteel Plate and give him a means to live through wraths as well.
Kaalia of the Vast
I for one find her to be super cool from a flavor standpoint. Anyone who doesnt feel like being beamed to death in the first few turns will use their spot removal on her though. She has no built in protections and is in somewhat of bad colors to try to protect her. She has black which is one of the better EDH colors but she also has R/W which are the worst of them for EDH. She seems very easy to predict her build and what she will do as well. I feel like she is somewhat of a closed off build considering she only has intereactions with 3 tribes of which there are only a handfull of good creatures in each of which. Bottom line being she is very linear and very predictable. She has only one good color to her and only black to really give good card advantage to. If you dont have one of your big tribe guys in hand she is much weaker. Personally I feel like Mayael the Anima is stronger as she has a more open environment for what goes in her as well as searching deep into your deck for threats.
The above reasons are why I personally do not run Kaalia of the Vast as a commander and instead chose to go with Animar, Soul of Elements. I felt that the colors were better and that the design space for how to build Animar was very wider than Kaalia. They are both agro strategies but I felt like I could put more of a personal twist to Animar.
Also I am putting on the consideration list the following mass LD tactics. I do not know yet if I need more mass LD or need to swap in a few of the following for ones I am currently using but they will be on my radar now:
EDIT: also I am still looking for a means of getting Wheel of Fortune into the deck so I will be skimming my list for some opening. I am sort of thinking a creature might go out for it but I dont know yet. Let me know if you have any ideas. Reasoning for the idea to be cut is appreciated as well.
I was not saying Kaalia of the Vast was in any way as good as Animar, Soul of Elements, in fact it was one of the first decks I looked at and rejected as unusable (wish I had done that before I purchased it, but I had to have them all, Pokemon mentality I guess).
As for...
Thoughts of Ruin - kinda hot, though with Animar out with many counters on it, cards in hand would be scarce. Tangle Wire - never liked it, its very annoying to other players, and you have to play around it yourself. Land Equilibrium - absolutely love the card, but I have never been able to make it work better than bleh, and I have tried many times to make it work as I have a play set of them things. They are one of those cards that require a set of moxen to be awesome. It needs many mana rocks to work well.
Why are you running signets in an Animar deck? Wouldn't you rather play mana creatures, since they synergize with your general? Bloom Tender and Birds of Paradise are ridiculously better than signets. Even Llanowar Elves and Arbor Elf are good here. I understand not playing land ramp, but it seems like this deck should focus on creatures for mana, not artifacts.
Also, Gilder Bairn is a complete house with your general. And I personally support the inclusion of Tangle Wire in every deck, but it's particularly good in decks that run cheap creatures like this one.
Jin-Gitaxis seems amazing once you get 4-5 counters on Animar, and has a pretty strong synergy with mana denial. Even if they draw an "out", they can't use it unless they drew the land to cast it first.
I'd take a very hard look at everything in this deck that's not a creature or resource denial card and decide whether it actually makes the cut. Most equipment isn't good enough here, for example.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
In my play group players throw out Wrath of God like its candy, mana critters would be short lived, but nobody is going to waste removal on a signet, also when you throw out a signet you look like a noob, so its good tech all the way around, functional, and stealthy.
Ok so I want to try to go all out on an Animar build. I was sort of thinking mass LD might be a good route to take. I have a lot of wrath effects in my meta so I will have to be very careful in the build.
I plan on building this deck to the max so there is no discussion of ethics, if it is the best strategy for the deck please speak up. I want to make him into a monster. If I am willing to go with Mass LD then clearly I am pulling out the strings. Resource denial will be a big part of this decklist.
1 Animar, Soul of Elements
CREATURES (29)
1 Coiling Oracle
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Gilder Bairn
1 Man-O'-War
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Trinket Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Forgotten Ancient
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Acidic Slime
1 Body Double
1 Keldon Firebombers
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
1 Mulldrifter
1 Brutalizer Exarch
1 Godo, Bandit Warlord
1 Duplicant
1 Primeval Titan
1 Sundering Titan
1 Terastodon
1 Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Myojin of Infinite Rage
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Skullclamp
1 Sol Ring
1 Fellwar Stone
1 Gruul Signet
1 Izzet Signet
1 Simic Signet
1 Winter Orb
1 Coalition Relic
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Darksteel Plate
1 Tangle Wire
1 Birthing Pod
1 Cauldron of Souls
1 Gilded Lotus
ENCHANTMENT (7)
1 Earthcraft
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Sylvan Library
1 Fecundity
1 Rhystic Study
1 Greater Good
1 Lurking Predators
INSTANT (6)
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Hinder
1 Spell Crumple
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Sunder
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Boom/Bust
1 Decree of Annihilation
PLANESWALKERS (1)
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
LAND (37)
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Breeding Pool
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Flooded Grove
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Command Tower
1 Rootbound Crag
1 Strip Mine
1 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
Thanks for all of the help that I have recieved so far on this deck. We have had a lot of good discussion on this decklist and I appreciate hearing some reasons behind why you feel a card is worthy of inclusion. I have really stripped this deck back down to what I feel that my basic deck plan is which is resource deprivation + artifact / creature ramp. I originally had a lot of combos in the deck but I felt that it was diluting the primary goal of the deck and so they were cut.
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[Modern] Allies
Since you're all cutthroat, you know a popped Defense of the Heart wins you the game, right (Kiki+Exarch)? It's a one-card combo and you're bound to catch some people with their pants down early with it.
You look like you could use some more ways to get him pumped up. Cycled Decree of Savagery maybe but that might be a little too narrow? I'd look for some more ways to get easy counters on him. The only thing you're really doing to support him is playing creatures- I think you can get more mileage out of him than that. This might be one of the few decks where I'd consider Inexorable Tide.
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
Oh I ninja edited the Exarch out for Pestermite. While the extra toughness is decent if I have to emergency use the card to defend myself or attack with it I would rather have a flyer as it gives me a potential extra blocker from those who have flying as their evasion. Ground pounders often have trample / annihilate which would blow me over.
Good call on the Defense. It is a high profile target but again it is an easy way to just say oops I win. I will need to find a spot for it in the list.
Hmmmm I would love to get some alternative ways in which to get counters on him. Sadly all of the cards that I see sort of feel too narrow when I really examine them. A few that I could consider are the 2 lands for abusing the persist creatures. They should do a decent job of getting him started at least.
Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
Novijen, Heart of Progress
I had looked a bit at Forgotten Ancient also as a means of super fast counters. I honestly don't feel he will stick to the board though... I draw a lot of hate in just about every game I play. His lack of any immediate impact sort of makes me sad.
Inexorable Tide - Hummm... its soooo bad though... I will think about this card, but seriously this card just seems Jank. I know it would get me there but god its bad.
I think for now I am back to the drawing board if they will get on the list at all.
A few things sort of on the wishlist that I dont know if they will make it or not are as follows currently:
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre Solves any permenant on being cast plus gives me an indestructable annihilator. I like him but I dont want to top load too much of my deck. I am building a lot of mass LD to really rely on this big old dude. Still he makes my wishlist.
Rancor reusable trample for my commander. I love how difficult this card is to actually get rid of when you use it on a spot removal resistant creature.
Fecundity obviously I run a lot of creatures and I sort of plan on being wrathed some. This is a good way to pick up the slack from a wrath.
Lurking Predators I have a ton of creatures in here for this to interact with... Still I just cant quite say if it belongs here.
I think for now I will work on getting Defense of the Heart, Rancor, and Fecundity into the decklist. Ohhh and those 2 lands I suppose. Let me know if you have any other suggestions.
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[Modern] Allies
Jugan, the Rising Star? (He would probably just prompt a wrath though)
Strength of the Tajuru? (At least it's an instant)
Grafters? Like Plaxcaster Frogling?
Forcemage Advocate?
Fungal Behemoth?
Spikes? Like Spike Weaver?
Those are all question-marked because I don't know if any of them are good enough for you. Plaxcaster Frogling seems like he could be really good though.
And you're right about inexorable tide- I was just grasping at straws there.
Have you thought about Glimpse of Nature and Primordial Sage? Again, both will punish you for getting wrathed but at least you get some cards out of the deal. Frankly, Animar's just not going to be that good in a wrath-heavy meta unless you hit your mass LD. Maybe you should play more of that? Or at least Mystical Tutor (ugggh not enough targets)? Destructive Force will probably kill Animar though...
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
Tooth and Nail I want soooo bad to put this on the list. My big worry is the fact that I do love haveing a lot of mass LD on my list and I am a bit concerned with hitting 7-9 mana for this one. I have thought it over a bit though and realistically I will end up paying quite some mana to try to use Chord of Calling as well. Sure there might be the occasional tons of creatures to conspire it out but usually not. I think I will try to bring in Tooth and Nail for this spot as a test. I wouldnt mind picking up a few more mana stones though to potentially be able to do this though.
Avenger of Zendikar Honestly I thought about him as I was making the list. It comes down to the fact that he doesnt help me deprive my opponents of resources. Most of the high end creatures either go infinite or deprive my opponents of resources. I am going to be somewhat vulnerable to wrathing in this deck currently and I would rather deprive resources on my big guys than I would spit out an army who is prone to wraths.
Regal Force I have tried him before. Sadly I am not too impressed with him outside of token decks. I know he is fun to tooth and nail into with Avenger but my meta is wrath happy so I am trying to combat that and this guy doesnt help me too much for doing so. Plus he shouldn't really be added unless Avenger is going in as well.
I love me some Mind Over Matter/Temple Bell. Sadly I have so little way of tutoring it up. Both of the combo pieces sort of tottally suck on their own for this deck as well. If I had black and or white tossed in or was running Azami I would be all over this.
Doubling Season - sadly I just dont have much support for it right now. I cant think of much else for planeswalkers that I would really want. If I did more token action or planeswalkers I would consider it. Currently though it would mainly just give my commander 2 counters for each creature dropped. Even then it is sounding better than Inexorable Tide
Jugan, the Rising Star Boom wrath, gone. Thanks for the effort but that wont work lol.
Strength of the Tajuru this one is sort of interesting. I am actually leaning towards the Decree of Savagery to tell you the truth though. I like that it replaces itself and honestly I dont really intend to get to crazy high mana so its not like I plan on hitting a strength for 10 counters or anything.
Plaxcaster Frogling sort of cool due to the shroud part, but Animar is pro black and white meaning he is already protected from a lot of spot removal. I have very little bounce or red burn in my meta so he should be fine from spot removal. I think I will pass on the frog.
Forcemage Advocate I sort of draw a lot of hate and this is slow. I dont like giving things back to people. I think there are better outlets.
Fungal Behemoth sort of interesting but a counter a turn isnt something that I am too excited about. Now that you mention suspend creatures though, I had sort of been considering Greater Gargadon as he is a total champ at running through mass LD to just slapstick an opponent.
Spike Weaver I had actually sort of considered him. I dont think I would run any of the other spikes as they sort of suck but he might make the list.
Glimpse of Nature interesting card. I wish it didnt end at the end of turn but it could make for some cool turns. I wish it would draw a card for playing itself as well though because I could just see it being a dead card.
Primordial Sage I like him. He does have some potential for the deck. I might see if he can make the list for testing.
The card that I came up with to possibly be tested is Blade of the Bloodchief I like how it triggers off of everyone's creatures dying, it is tutorable off of several of my artifact tutors such as Tezzeret and Trinket Mage as well as Godo. The counters stay on the creature as well so if someone strips my equipment I still keep my progress so far. And if someone does wrath I can hopefully get it going again quickly.
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[Modern] Allies
The other stuff I mentioned? Like I said, I was just brainstorming. Lots of it sucked but I figured it would be cool to bring it up just to see if it brought on any other ideas.
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
All of these are incredible in your deck.
I cannot stress how good Oran-Rief is with anything with Persist. Pop the Rief on a Woodfall Primus and you have one hell of a tough to wipe permanent destroying machine.
Your deck is in prime territory for Lurking Predators, too. Even if it doesn't exactly trigger off Animar's ability, it works so well in a deck as creature heavy as yours its ridiculous.
Other cards you may want to consider are Cloudstone Curio, Glimpse of Nature, Priest of Urabrask (goes infinite with Cloudstone Curio and 1 "free" or a creature that ends up having a casting cost of R or less after Animar), and some other fairly "degenerate" things.
Tidespout Tyrant can also explode off of Animar's abilities or an infinite creature combo of any kind, like the one mentioned above.
Birthing Pod might be a worthy addition. That's one more questionable, though.
Not a problem I love brainstorming, it gives me new perspective on things I might have otherwise not thought about. I will see if I can get GG into the deck, I go back and forth on him. The real power behind my commander is to reduce the actual cost of things so big guys like Eldrazi are appealing. While GG is great when paired with mass LD as he can sweep up the land and haste out of nowhere, Assuming my commander is out I could otherwise just drop an eldrazi or something. I will continue to think about him but to be honest I have some 4-5 big guys that I am on the fence about. It is hard to rely on my commander being in play and leveled up in order to cast these things out.
Cloudstone Curio - I do like this card for this deck. I had actually been thinking about Equilibrium earlier but I think this one might actually be better for me. My main objective is to rotate creatures as fast as possible.
Priest of Urabrask sort of an interesting guy here. My biggest problem is the fact that I dont really over use red creatures and he is sort of a fail creature without comboing off. He feels like a bad Palinchron to me. I think it is cute and I had looked at him before in a Kiki-Jiki deck but to be honest I dont see him as having that big of an impact. I would usually rather this just be a creature tutor.
Tidespout Tyrant I have thought about this guy already actually. I love the idea of using my top + future sight with this to just roll opponents permenants back into hand. Sadly though he competes with a lot of other high end creatures for this deck. So my problems here is that he does nothing on his own, If I have a good hand setup for him to roll off the bounce then he is amazing, I could just as likely have nothing to do with him. He doesnt work all that great on his own and I dont have as much tutoring in here as I would really like to use him well. I feel like he works better in a deck with access to B as they can tutor into combos easier with him. I would love to use him but I think he relies too much on things to be working for me.
Birthing Pod I honestly don't have too much for means of tutoring. I had really wanted to run Tooth and Nail and or Chord of Calling but I have a feeling that both of them will require too much mana sunk into them to work. Looking at this though, I have tons of creatures in this deck at all sorts of mana costs. I think I might be able to make some use out of this. I will give it a shot.
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Ok well that covers responses, I have to run over some cards that I feel are questionable in the deck and cards that need to be considered so far that we have talked about as well as some cards I had been currious about.
POTENTIAL CUTS:
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur I really like this guy but considering I have no means of trying to resurect him and little means to protect him I am actually thinking I might be better off running an Eldrazi in his place. I like the Eldrazi because they give me immediate results and the annihilate on them adds to my resource denial tactic.
Mystic Snake It is honestly somewhat difficult to cast him out. Even if my commander is up and rolling he will still cost 3 for a creature that is somewhat of a bad threat.
Relic of Progenitus Considering I am rolling with land deprival I dont know if I need to be overly worried if someone has access to their yards. I dont see a whole lot of Crucible of Words / Life from the Loam in my meta so exiling opposing lands isnt really an issue.
Chord of Calling I have decided that I feel like this will cost me too much mana to cast. I really want more tutors for this deck but I have been having issues getting ones that will work with this deck's plan.
Life From the Loam I like this spell but if I blow up all the lands I would rather have Crucible of Worlds in play almost every time over this card. Also I don't have like any support for dredge in this deck. I have very little recursion, and just dont know how this will pan out. I think bottom line is I sort of want to cut it.
Wildfire hitting everyone for 4 lands doesnt really punish the ramp abusers enough. Also I might have some problems getting beyond the 4 damage to all creatures myself. Due to that I think this might go for something else.
POTENTIAL ADDS:
Defense of the Heart Cheap to cast and there is the chance to just do the ha I win with infinite flyers. If I don't want to do that I could always go and get Keldon Firebombers + Primeval Titan to run away with the land war.
Fecundity Quick easy card draw. I have a lot of creatures and I expect I will still catch a few wraths even if I try really hard to blow up their stuff.
Lurking Predators I really would love to get this into the deck. I have seen this thing go down in flames a lot but honestly it protects itself to some extent as it still cheats a few guys in before it gets delt with. I can remember one game where a buddy of mine ramped to it on turn 3 and he went first. The next spell had him flip over a Terastodon who stripped resources. I think it might be worth giving a shot.
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre V Kozilek, Butcher of Truth So I obviously don't have room for both of these guys. So lets do a quick run through of the 2 of them. First Ulamog when cast gives me a destroy ability which adds to the resource denial options. I can use it to remove a problematic art / ench / creature / waler as well though which is a good option. Indestructibility on him allows me a less wrath / spot removal vulnerable target as well. Kozilek gives me 4 cards on being cast which is great for refilling my fuel to attack. As much as I would like to give Jin his time in the spotlight, I have no way to abuse him and little means of protecting him. I think the bottom line I am going to go with Ulamog due to his difficulty to be delt with.
Bloodbraid Elf So I sort of revisit this guy every time I build a deck, this might finally be the deck for him. I counted up the cards in my deck, after the cuts I intend to make I have 20 good targets for him and 3 bad ones. That equates to an 87% chance to hit a good target with him. I think I want to give him a shot. If I am reading Cascade correctly, it still casts the second spell so I can potentially double trigger my commander with him.
Birthing Pod I like that I can cycle off some of my CIP creatures to try to get to other effects. I dont have much tutoring in this deck so I like to take these low cost effects where I can get them.
Oran-Rief, the Vastwood I think for now I will add Oran Rief and pass on Novijen, Heart of Progress. The rief gives me green mana and activates easier than Novjien. While it comes in tapped, in a 3 colored deck I find tapping for colored mana to be more beneficial.
DIDNT MAKE THIS CUT: (cards I am still considering but just didnt make this round)
Forgotten Ancient his biggest issue just being that he is slow to operate. I cannot move his counters until my own upkeep and he draw a lot of hate.
Rancor cheap reusable trample for my commander. Sadly I would rather have more resource denial tactics than the option for my commander to crush through.
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth I don't have much room for the really big fatties in this list. I think that he is cool but I really have to select what will work best for this deck in these big guys.
Primordial Sage I think he is sort of cool but again being at 6 mana it better make or break the deck. Most of my guys at 6+ mana I try to have them do something on their own. The fact that this guy works over time and would achieve nothing if he gets wrathed makes me like him slightly less.
Greater Gargadon As good as he is with mass LD, my commander throws his ability off a bit. Usually mass LD decks try to blow up everything and cheat a few guys in after the fact. Sadly, I just dont see this deck making advantage of this guy as much.
Blade of the Bloodchief decent way to put counters on my commander. Sadly I dont have a lot of control over things dying to put counters on him. Considering how much I see wrath effects I cut this one at the last second. It is still on my radar but I dont know if it is right for my meta. I think I would rather another mass LD effect makes my list over this.
Cloudstone Curio
I do like the ability to just continuously cast a few artifact creatures that this could achieve. Sadly I dont have that many artifact creatures in this deck. I think this is cool but it just didn't stand out enough to make the cut this time.(I should probably RTFK closer. Still, it seems like a combo piece to set up with a number of other cards. I like how I can abuse creatures using it but I might be more prone to just putting in more creatures that bounce things and use them in lue. I will keep thinking about it but this feels like a combo piece for an overly elaborate combo. Thanks for the correction on this Sonik you were right for once :P)Man-o'-War I like how he can flicker himself for one mana once I get my commander powered up. For U I can give my commander a counter which is cool and I might still consider this as I can reuse a CIP trigger or bounce a problem creature after my LD.
Primal Command Sort of spendy to cast and difficult to do much else the turn I cast it. I like the versatility and 5 mana to tutor seems slightly more manageable.
EDIT: Tooth and Nail sorry I didnt mention this one for some reason. To be honest I have a problem with this because I plan on blowing up lands a lot. I love love love this spell but if I am up to 7+ mana then someone else is far higher and it is time to blow lands. I have my commander to hopefully assist in getting the larger creatures into play but I find it a bit of a stretch to believe I will make it to 9 mana too regularly.
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Ok well that is the rundown currently. I have 6 effects that I am willing to cut and 6 cards + 1 land that I am sort of trying to get into the deck. Let me know if you feel that one of the cards in consideration or a seperate card altogether belongs in the deck more than what I have suggested.
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/can't believe I have actually corrected you for once
:symu::symr: Melek WheelStorm
:symw::symg: Trostani Enchantress (updated 6/5)
:symg::symr::symu: Unexpected Results.dec
Thada Adel Stax WIP
One of the other points that I am surprised that nobody has made so far is I should probably put a Survival of the Fittest in here... I have sort of been skirting arround it as it would require me to buy yet another but I think it is that solid for the deck that I do need to honestly find a spot for it on the list. I have such a high creature curve though that it needs to hit the list as well.
In addition I have been thinking about adding another few mana rocks to the list. I think another 2-3 might be beneficial.
EDIT: Sorry this is like the 4th time I have edited this post to be honest. I think I am going to cut Arcane Denial for Survival of the Fittest. I wanted to put in some control elements but I think I will just take my 2 tuck counters + creature counterspells and hope for the best.
EDIT 2: Ok so I put in an order for cards. I dropped $50 towards this deck but considering that is about the only investment I have made other than preordering the mirror mastery commander deck which has homeward path anywhays which I wanted I would say this deck is coming together fairly nicely. I got a VG Survival for $17 which should be plenty good enough for me. I should have somewhere arround 90% of the cards for this deck once I get the shipment + my commander boxes.
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I think you can drop 1 signet and put in Fabricate.
I had cut Jin as well in one of my late cuts of my Animar Deck and decided to put Edric in.
Another card people have suggested to me since I run Cloudstone Curio is Equilibrium which is basically Unsummon for 1 every time I cast a creature.
Destructive Force is just like Wildfire except 1 more damage and 1 more land.
Another land hoser would be Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger. Mana Reflection on a stick as well.
Inexorable Tide I can understand an underrated art / ench on the board getting to stay, sadly like you said there just isnt that much interaction with the deck and the interaction that it has just seems too narrow to warrant a spot.
Fabricate at first I wasnt too excited by this. Then I realized exactly how much artifact utility I have available in this deck. Using this I could go and get a Winter's Orb, Skullclamp, mana stone, Top, or Darksteel Plate. I think this is going to be fairly high on my list to be added to the deck currently.
Edric - I like the idea of running him. I think he has some good potential. My own personal issue I have with him is that my playgroup often does an attack left style game. That means that I will still get attacked by the usual stuff. He has some good diplomatic aspects to him and unfortunately I cannot reap those benefits. While I like him, he is a bit situational in when he is good. I prefur something that I can assess how it will pan out regardless of how my setup is going.
Equilibrium another good card. I run it in my Jenara deck. Sadly there are a lot of different themes that I am trying to push into this deck and I would rather have room for another mass LD, another tutor, or another mana stone than I really feel like I need this sort of utility.
Destructive Force I am actually pulling Wildfire out of this deck. To be honest these effects probably work best in decks built arround ramping land as they punish those who arent ramping lands more than they hurt themselves. I want effects that set everyones lands to a certain count. This way I am not encouraging ramping. Another problem with these cards is that I dont entirely know how often they will kill my commander. Ideally I want to blow up lands when my commander will live through it and thus help me ramp back into a board position faster than my opponents.
Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger I for one haven't found him to be an inclusion creature in very many decks so far. I do like how he gives me extra mana and deprives my opponents from resources. Sadly he has no immediate impact on my opponents game. If he is removed then he has achieved no impact on my opponents board positions. While I think he has his appropriate place in Omnath and Mayael decks, I just don't find him that impressive.
Out of them though... I would really like to get Fabricate into the deck. Thanks for the ideas though.
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Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
Legacy: WUB Doomsday
Standard: WUB Reanimator
Great idea, I hadn't thought about it at all. Probably the only thing I do not like about it though is if I want to use a mass LD effect when it is in play people can just tap down their land and bounce them in response. Realistically though, if people dont answer it quick it should mess up their land base and their plans. It is one of those effects that if you go to answer it with anything big it will screw you over so I do like this as it is an ongoing effect that can jack with my opponents. Good call on this one. I just need to find a way to get it in now.
I am willing to give it a shot as there seem to be several supporters of him. I need to cut something of a similar mana size as I dont want to overload my deck to high mana cards as that can kill me especially with all this mass LD in the deck.
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Ok a few other considerations I had been thinking about reall quick:
Squee, Goblin Nabob first of all he works fantastically with both Survival of the Fittest and Fauna Shaman. He can be ditched to go get other things and he comes back later. Also if needed I can cast him out to help my commander get counters as well as use him as a chump blocker that will return to me. I think he has a lot of utility for my current setup and he works nicely with my commander.
Wheel of Fortune there are a lot of things in this deck that could allow me to dump my hand somewhat quickly. I could also use this to try to go and hit some mass LD. I do have blue for drawing but this is a very big draw for very little mana which this deck likes.
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Ok I have come up with a few cuts on my own for the list. I still need to try to make 2 more cuts though so suggestions would be great.
Elvish Visionary -> Squee, Goblin Nabob while I like the Visionary, I think that Squee gives my deck a bit more staying power. He recurs back to my hand on his own, can power up my commander multiple times over a game, and works fantastically with survival / fauna shaman / birthing pod. I think I will get more use out of squee over the long game than I will the visionary. I also like how it fits a similar mana cost / spot in the deck.
Phyrexian Ingester -> Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger I am willing to give Vorinclex a shot in this deck. I like some of his abilities but am a bit more unsure about how he seems somewhat easy to answer. I am not too happy about cutting one of my creature based removal cards but as he is sort of high mana I am willing to play without him for a bit and see how it goes.
Lightning Greaves -> Fabricate As much as I love the shiney boots, I dont have a whole lot of single creatures that I feel are vulnerable to spot removal. I see a lot of white and black removal and my commander is already protection from them. Blue will probably counter, red is almost dead in my meta, and green has like 1 spell. The only place I can really think of that I would want the boots is to swing in with Primeval Titan and or Ulamog the turns they come in. Other than that I feel like the card isnt overly needed in the deck. While giving haste to hit for damage is nice, it isnt my primary concern for this deck. I would rather have fabricate to go get a darksteel plate for my commander or winters orb / storm cauldron for me.
Also I need to look for 2 more potential cuts for Wheel of Fortune and
Storm Cauldron(Through further discussion I have decided against running Storm Cauldron) to come in.Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
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Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
It is great, the only problem being that nobody's lands will ever be tapped. If I drop something like Woodfall Primus or Terastodon I cannot actually hit anyones land as they will just bounce them in response. I still think it is a strong card but it gumms up some of my removal tactics still. The lands I target will still be bounced which is alright but it stops me from removing lands a few at a time.
Due to what I demonstrated above I don't think it is perfect. I like the card still and think I might want to test it out but it does have some drawbacks.
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Yeah you are right, but it gets the lands up.
With Vedalken Orrery you can flash it on an opponents discard phase to hose them.
This little guy also works great with Storm Cauldron and Animar --> Walking Atlas
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
I really like the Storm Cauldron and I would really love for it to work in here but the more I think about it, I think I might need to pass on it in here.
In most cases it feels like it is probably going to need the interaction of a second card to make it really good. It also screws up a lot of my other destruction in the deck. It is slow to come out and works over time. As much as I love the card, I just don't feel like it is going to fit this deck right now. Thanks for all the discussion on it as I think it helped me work the card over in my mind.
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These are my 3 choices, and only one set of card sleeves.
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
Animar, Soul of Elements
So arguably he has 2 of the best colors in EDH with him, he has an open route for how you build him, while your opponents will for the most part know you are running agro it is hard to tell what sort of build you will go with exactly here. He is also resistant to spot removal which can be extremely nice. If you want you can tutor up an equipment like Darksteel Plate and give him a means to live through wraths as well.
Kaalia of the Vast
I for one find her to be super cool from a flavor standpoint. Anyone who doesnt feel like being beamed to death in the first few turns will use their spot removal on her though. She has no built in protections and is in somewhat of bad colors to try to protect her. She has black which is one of the better EDH colors but she also has R/W which are the worst of them for EDH. She seems very easy to predict her build and what she will do as well. I feel like she is somewhat of a closed off build considering she only has intereactions with 3 tribes of which there are only a handfull of good creatures in each of which. Bottom line being she is very linear and very predictable. She has only one good color to her and only black to really give good card advantage to. If you dont have one of your big tribe guys in hand she is much weaker. Personally I feel like Mayael the Anima is stronger as she has a more open environment for what goes in her as well as searching deep into your deck for threats.
The above reasons are why I personally do not run Kaalia of the Vast as a commander and instead chose to go with Animar, Soul of Elements. I felt that the colors were better and that the design space for how to build Animar was very wider than Kaalia. They are both agro strategies but I felt like I could put more of a personal twist to Animar.
Also I am putting on the consideration list the following mass LD tactics. I do not know yet if I need more mass LD or need to swap in a few of the following for ones I am currently using but they will be on my radar now:
Thoughts of Ruin
Tangle Wire
Land Equilibrium
EDIT: also I am still looking for a means of getting Wheel of Fortune into the deck so I will be skimming my list for some opening. I am sort of thinking a creature might go out for it but I dont know yet. Let me know if you have any ideas. Reasoning for the idea to be cut is appreciated as well.
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I was not saying Kaalia of the Vast was in any way as good as Animar, Soul of Elements, in fact it was one of the first decks I looked at and rejected as unusable (wish I had done that before I purchased it, but I had to have them all, Pokemon mentality I guess).
As for...
Thoughts of Ruin - kinda hot, though with Animar out with many counters on it, cards in hand would be scarce.
Tangle Wire - never liked it, its very annoying to other players, and you have to play around it yourself.
Land Equilibrium - absolutely love the card, but I have never been able to make it work better than bleh, and I have tried many times to make it work as I have a play set of them things. They are one of those cards that require a set of moxen to be awesome. It needs many mana rocks to work well.
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
Also, Gilder Bairn is a complete house with your general. And I personally support the inclusion of Tangle Wire in every deck, but it's particularly good in decks that run cheap creatures like this one.
As for land destruction effects that don't kill creatures, there's also Tectonic Break and Impending Disaster.
Jin-Gitaxis seems amazing once you get 4-5 counters on Animar, and has a pretty strong synergy with mana denial. Even if they draw an "out", they can't use it unless they drew the land to cast it first.
I'd take a very hard look at everything in this deck that's not a creature or resource denial card and decide whether it actually makes the cut. Most equipment isn't good enough here, for example.
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort