FINAL UPDATE @ 02.11.11
So many of you know that I don't actually play (or own) this deck anymore. I just wanted to put this here to let people know that I won't be updating this list anymore with future sets, as I don't see myself coming back to it. I think it's a great list for multiplayer play, so don't take it as me putting the deck down because it was bad or anything like that. If you'd like to see a more degenerate version of this deck, please check out rageinuyasha's thread, which has a Contamination-centric build. I hope everyone who has seen this list has been inspired or given some cool ideas. Long live mono black!
UPDATES @ 10.07.10
SCARS ADDED ^
Exsanguinate joins the ranks!
Most recent change log: Crypt Rats -> Exsanguinate
Idea List:
Ashes to Ashes
Nightmare Incursion
? Helldozer
? Bloodchief Ascension
I've been playing Xiahou Dun as my EDH general for quite some time now. This deck first started off as Maga, Traitor to Mortals, but after I found this general I instantly fell in love. He is, in my opinion, one of the best: he offers flexibility, utility, built-in redundancy, the ability to swing for the win, and most importantly, the deck can function completely fine without him. When allowed to, he can generate massive amounts of card advantage or force through game-breaking spells over and over again.
I built this deck with a very clear idea in mind: having my opponents play at my pace. I prefer to design the deck so that I can consistently curve out and steadily build my mana base, thus maintaining a high level of threat density and minimizing dead draws. In order for this deck to "combo off", you need a certain set of cards and to ease into this process, I use a plethora of removal and proactive disruption. (Please note that I abbreviate Xiahou Dun with X-D)
The deck is primarily MBC, but it has a lot of tricks up its sleeve. I like to play soft lock cards that force your opponent to answer them or suffer the entire game. This also helps to distract them from destroying your true combo pieces and halt their offense. There are plenty of sweepers in here, backed by disruption and annoying soft locks to help you along the way. As soon as you get your tutor-chaining going, you'll be hard to stop. If for some reason something goes terribly awry, there's always backup plans.
So the deck has a few primary paths to victory. Almost all of them involve the use of X-D, but that doesn't mean that he is necessary, it just means the task will just take that much longer. Generally, the first tutor that I play will fetch either a recursion spell (Corpse Dance is the #1 target here) or a mana doubler (Cabal Coffers is a common target). It depends on the situation of course, but those are the general guidelines. After you have your first tutor, you can keep re-using X-D to fetch the tutor and then find whatever else you need for any situation.
In a vacuum, the deck usually assumes Plan A, which is described below. What usually happens is the following:
1. Build up mana doublers and have X-D engine ready (Chainer/Corpse Dance/Profane Command)
2. Make sure to have security before trying to go off, such as Infernal Darkness, Guardian Beast, the Anvil/Chains combo, or Mind Twist/Shatter/Sludge.
3. Tutor for Myojin of Night's Reach, pitch everyone's hand. (This is the ultimate security and key play)
3. Tutor for remaining mana doubling pieces (such as Candelabra of Tawnos) OR go for the Deserted Temple/Cabal Coffers/Rings of Brighthearth combo.
4. Amount massive mana (usually between 60-120), and tutor for a Drain spell to drain one player.
6. Tutor for Crypt Rats and pestilence the rest of the table.
PLAN A: Drain
This is the most common way that I end games. This usually involves one or more of my mana-doubling spells, such as Cabal Coffers, Doubling Cube, Gauntlet of Power, Nirkana Revenant or Extraplanar Lens. It is absolutely crucial that you find these, because you will rely on the massive amounts of mana to constantly recur X-D with a recursion spell and re-cast your Consume Spirit. Even if you can't pull off the grand-master plan mentioned above, you can always single-target Consume Spirit or Profane Command loop to finish individual players off.
PLAN B: Beats and Vampires
X-D has horsemanship, aka he's unblockable. In 1v1, you would probably run Hatred, but this just doesn't work out in multiplayer. Sigil of Distinction and Nightmare Lash work, but I've opted not to include these anymore. If you're doing this to win, you're already desperate. However, with the addition of a few powerful vampires, you'll have somewhat of a "man-plan" should things go terribly awry (a resolved, kicked Sadistic Sacrament to you will usually do that). Drana, Nirkana Revenant, Sorin Markov, and our friend Chainer are all solid alternatives to ending the game.
PLAN C: Sterilization
Okay this isn't really a plan, but it's good to keep this in the back of your head for odd situations. Late game, this deck to be able to produce tons of mana. With such arbitrarily large amounts of swamp power at your disposal, you can use X-D to return Sadistic Sacrament and remove entire decks from the game. And even if you dont RFG their deck, usually one kicked Sadistic Sacrament is enough to take out the majority of threats from a deck (and all combo pieces against a combo deck), let alone two or three times more.
COMBOS
It's important to understand all the minute interactions with the deck and some may be fairly obvious already, but I want to point to those unfamiliar with the archetype that there are combos that will win you the game.
Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed + Profane Command
These two cards provide a self-incorporated loop that allows you to drain incessantly for as much mana as you have, once per turn. Profane Command allows you two things: have a player lose X life and bring back a creature with X cmc. Cast this spell for all the mana you have, targeting an opponent's face, then use the second effect to return X-D into play. You then sacrifice X-D to return Profane Command to your hand and repeat this again next turn.
Cabal Coffers + Deserted Temple + Rings of Brighthearth
This is the true infinite mana combo that the deck has. The requirement, other than these three pieces, is that Cabal Coffers must produce at least 6 upon activation, because the loop costs 5. You activate Cabal Coffers, then activate Deserted Temple targeting Cabal Coffers. While this is on the stack, copy the Deserted Temple ability targeting Deserted Temple. Now you have both Coffers and Deserted Temple untapped, spend 2 mana to use Coffers agaiin, 1 mana to active Temple, and 2 mana to copy Temple's ability with Rings, netting you any extra mana after the initial 5. Repeat ad nauseum and kill everyone
Chains of Mephistopheles + Anvil of Bogardan
This is the lockdown combo of the deck. If you resolve this, make sure you are ready to win with the mana you already have because no one at the table will ever draw a card again. What basically happens is that Anvil adds to your draw step with a looter ability. Chains however states that whenever you draw a card, you must discard one first. So during each player's draw step, he/she draws a card, Anvil triggers, draw a card then discard a card, then discard again to Chains for drawing a second card. As an X-D player, you can still use the GY as a resource, so running this combo out there is a good way to draw some counterspells early on. Even after the combo is going, you can use your graveyard with X-D while other players who do not abuse the GY will suffer. Note that I have not tested this combo in actual practice yet, but multiple discussions with friends have concluded that this will be a strong inclusion. The other, more common black combo is Leyline of the Void/Helm of Obedience, which may possibly find its way in here should this combo not prove itself
The deck has several glaring weaknesses and often times you will find your path to victory not so swift. EDH is still a format that is subject to a lot of random happenings, so it's very important that you learn a few political skills to keep yourself in the game. Beyond this point, I will address a few of the general's primary difficulties.
Graveyard Hate: directly interferes with Plan A. It's tough, especially these days when everyone is aware of how powerful the graveyard is and runs 2-4 dedicated slots to hose such strategies. It's difficult to play around and even more difficult to see coming, so my best suggestion is that if you expect GY hate from a particular player, either quickly dump his hand with a twist effect or tutor for Sadistic Sacrament and nab the cards from him before he gets the chance to ruin your day.
Enchantments and Artifacts: black's age old nemesis. We have very few ways to deal with these rather troublesome permanents and will have to rely on our two reset buttons, Oblivion Stone and All is Dust, to get us out of trouble. If you're good enough with politics, you can always try to persuade a neighbor to do the dirty deed for you.
Jester's Cap Effects: I think this one applies to every deck out there, but the point is having a cap effect on you is really devastating, as X-D is a combo deck at heart. Granted you still have the vampire plan, it really pales in comparison to amassing mana and one-shotting the board. If you can try and twist your opponent before that happens, power to you. Otherwise, plan on winning with vampires or general beats. It'll be hard times ahead either way.
Card Choices:
Creature Base
There's really nothing to say here. All of the creatures I've included all serve their purposes very well. Fleshbag Marauder has been an MVP for me, and I chose to run some other creatures so that I may properly abuse my recursion spells (Kagemaro is a good example here).
Removal and Sweepers
I've overloaded the list with sweepers in order to make sure that I can keep things off the board at a whim. I used to have even more mizer cards, like Hero's Demise, but as the list evolved, I've moved onto even more devastating spells. Arena of the Ancients is the most recent addition and I fully expect it to become a powerful asset. It not only stops almost all relevant generals from doing their thing, but Xiahou Dun is absolutely unaffected by it.
Drains
After playing many games with this deck, I've found that I only really ever needed one Consume Spirit in the deck. Corrupt doesn't work well without Mirari, and Drain Life/Consume Spirit/Soul Burn all suck as removal. I usually don't want to see these unless I'm ready to kill someone or straight up win. Consume Spirit was the chosen drain card because Drain Life doesn't allow you to gain life past the toughness of a creature you kill (can be relevant).
Neutralization and Locks
These cards are what make black worth playing. All of these cards immediately take out the biggest threat at the table. Sadistic Sacrament doubles as a preemptive strike against GY hate. Other cards like Infernal Darkness are great at locking the game down before you win. The most recent addition to the deck is the Chains of Mephistopheles/Anvil of Bogardan lock. Chains by itself locks hand sizes and doesn't allow blue players to go bonkers with cards like Rhystic Study. Anvil of Bogardan grants everyone Spellbook and a free looter card every turn. While this may be slightly unfavorable, it's still an okay card by itself. However, when combined the combo makes it so that everyone loses their draw steps and no one may ever draw an extra card again. This will be a primary route to victory against blue-based decks.
Card Draw
Extensive play with this deck shows that high-cc card drawing spells aren't really that great. They overfill your hand that you cannot empty quickly and don't help you curve out. Sign in Blood and Night's Whisper are great for exactly the opposite reasons. There are also others, like Phyrexian Etchings and Skeletal Scrying, but the former is a worse Necropotence and the latter hurts the recursion strategy with X-D.
Tutors
The heart and soul of black. The best kind of tutor in this deck is the kind that puts directly to hand. This is why Demonic Tutor, Beseech the Queen, Diabolic Tutor, and Grim Tutor are the most valuable spells in the deck. They kickstart the X-D recursion engine! I've considered running Imperial Seal, but the fact that it doesn't put into hand means you can't "combo off" with it.
Utility and Recursion
All the goodies are in here, and I believe they need no introduction. Scroll Rack is indeed one of the golden eggs of this deck.
Mana
The mana base was built in a way to maximize the use of Swamps. The deck is very black symbol hungry, so I've kept colorless lands to a minimum.
One-Eyed Candy (My Pimped Deck!)
PS: there's no way I could get that Imperial Seal altered. It's practically NM!
I also have about 7 pages of un-used EDH MBC foils. I'll post that sometime too!
You are using a black Horsemanship general without Hatred? I highly suggest it, as it provides a 'combo' in which you can 1-hit opponents. Not as great on a multiplayer table, but still worth a look.
Nice list! I may disagree on the 'no artifact accel' but to all their vices, i suppose. With that many basics, though, you may find Terrain Generator useful.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
-C.S. Lewis
You are using a black Horsemanship general without Hatred? I highly suggest it, as it provides a 'combo' in which you can 1-hit opponents. Not as great on a multiplayer table, but still worth a look.
Nice list! I may disagree on the 'no artifact accel' but to all their vices, i suppose. With that many basics, though, you may find Terrain Generator useful.
Thanks for the response.
I've already commented on both cards in the overview and card choice sections. Hatred is indeed not here because it is a 1-shot card that will only kill one opponent and cost a hefty 18 life (god forbid it is countered - you still pay the life). Sigil of Distinction is a fine card to run as well, but I prefer Nightmare Lash while I don't have a Grim Tutor (Dimir House Guard fetches it).
Terrain Generator is definitely on my watch list. I think it may replace Volrath's Stronghold (call me crazy, but I have never even activated the land ONCE in all of my time playing this deck).
I've also been toying with the idea of cutting Dawn of the Dead. I honestly only need Corpse Dance and Phyrexian Reclamation (with Profane Command as backup). Dawn of the Dead is only a one-use-per-turn card, which makes it much less appealing than Dance and Reclamation. If anyone has any better suggestions for recursive cards, I'd be glad to hear them. But for now, Dawn of the Dead probably won't make the cut.
Another card that has been surprisingly lackluster is Tendrils of Corruption. In all honesty, I'd probably rather run Chainer's Edict or Hero's Demise over that again. It only hits creatures, and sometimes falls short early game because I need to kill a creature that has more toughness than swamps I have.
If I were to add artifact mana accel, it wouldn't be anything more than Sol Ring and Jet Medallion.
So, toying with these changes:
- Gatekeeper of Malakir (not so useful without Phyrexian Reclamation)
- Nightmare Lash (Replaced with Sigil of Distinction)
- Dimir House Guard (Upgrading)
- Dawn of the Dead (After playing the deck, another one of these type of cards isn't necessary. Plus, it's only one use per turn)
- Tendrils of Corruption
- Some Land (if I cut Dawn, probably should cut something else than Volrath's Stronghold - Bojuka Bog possibly)
+ Sol Ring
+ Jet Medallion
+ Sigil of Distinction
+ Grim Tutor
+ Chainer's Edict
+ Terrain Generator
I prefer Nezumi Graverobber over Withered wretch, you might want to give him a try.
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I prefer Nezumi Graverobber over Withered wretch, you might want to give him a try.
Thanks for the suggestion. I chose Withered Wretch because his activation cost is 1 instead of Graverobber's 2, but the difference is negligible. The other main reason was cause I was running Call to the Grave, but since that's not here anymore, I suppose switching to Graverobber is the optimal call.
I'd like to hear everyone's opinions on the ratios of role-players in this deck:
- Tutors: they are what make the deck tick. Should I be playing even more cards like Brainspoil and Imperial Seal?
- Mana: I'd like to see a strong argument for artifact mana here. Mine is that I want to minimize dead draws and since many of our spells require Swamps anyways (Cabal Coffers), the need for artifact mana can be offset by running cheap ways to stall the early game.
- Removal: at what point am I running too much? Am I running the right kind?
What cards do you think are unnecessary? What have you guys seen work? What has been overrated?
EDIT:
After some discussion with a fellow Sally member (Pysces), we've derived the following changes (including the ones in my previous post):
- Gatekeeper of Malakir
- Nightmare Lash
- Dimir House Guard
- Dawn of the Dead
- Tendrils of Corruption
- Graveborn Muse
- Death Cloud
- Syphon Mind
- Boseiju
+ Sol Ring
+ Jet Medallion
+ Sigil of Distinction
+ Grim Tutor
+ Hero's Demise
+ Candelabra of Tawnos
+ Scroll Rack
+ Ancient Tomb
+ Terrain Generator (Wayfarer's Bauble)
Basically the addition of more mize cards allow me to play the early game a lot more comfortably. The inclusion of Sol Ring and Jet Medallion also go towards that cause, helping me ease into my middle game where I can freely dominate and disrupt. Candelabra of Tawnos was originally dismissed when I first created this deck (due to cost reasons), but now I feel like it should be an auto-include. This card, when paired with any of my mana doublers, is just bonkers.
EDIT #2:
Made some more changes to the add/subtract list. While I was scanning the best possible early-game targets for a Shred Memory transmute, I totally forgot about Scroll Rack! This card is decidedly INSANE in EDH - I can't believe I forgot about it. Ancient Tomb was added for additional acceleration. I'm trying to keep it minute and less vulnerable to artifact hate (like Mana Crypt). I've been blown out by Austere Commands and Shattering Sprees, which has led me to shy away from amassing artifacts.
So far Worldwake has brought us two staple goodies! All is Dust and Nirkana Revenant!
Since my last post, I've made the following changes. One of the most important facets of playing the deck is hitting your land drops. Because of this, I've cut some excess spells to make sure that I can curve and develop properly. Granted this deck folds hard to LD (Armageddon) and mass artifact/enchantment removal (Akroma's Vengeance), it's best that you are able to develop efficiently and hopefully strip that person's hand or RFG the card via Sadistic Sacrament.
I also took out some card draw because honestly, it just isn't necessary. I've often found it in excess, because this is a deck that builds its own engine.
- Hero's Demise (cut for Rend Flesh - less narrow, still evades Teeg)
- Altar of Shadows (cut for Duplicant - cheaper)
- Phthisis (still too slow)
- Nightmare Incursion (this might come back in)
- Ancient Craving (excess draw)
- Promise of Power (excess draw)
- Sigil of Distinction (too slow to win with - I never want to use it)
- Journeyer's Kite (huge tempo loss - replaced with Armillary Sphere)
- Terrain Generator (never had those excess swamps)
- Nevinyrral's Disk (extremely slow, replaced with All is Dust)
- Ancient Tomb (too much life loss)
+ Chainer, Dementia Master (cheapest recursion engine)
+ Duplicant (colorless removal)
+ Solemn Simulacrum (ramp)
+ Tendrils of Corruption (too offset life-loss)
+ Rend Flesh (indiscriminate removal)
+ Armillary Sphere (mana developer)
+ Phyrexian Processor (alt win condition)
+ Wayfarer's Bauble (mana developer)
+ Snow-Covered Swamp (more swamp sources)
+ All is Dust (best print for the deck! gets rid of enchantments and annoying stuff!)
+ Nirkhana Revenant (another mana doubler + built in win condition!!!)
In all, the deck runs much smoother with the basic-land developers. Before, the deck would stumble over itself in the first few turns staring at a bunch of awkward over-costed spells. The main thing about this deck is that you definitely want Swamps and NOT colorless mana developers. They may be useful temporarily, but you'll be getting the most out of the deck via Swamps.
I don't see why you would take out Promise of Power. If you don't need to draw cards, it spits out a huge demon that doubles as another threat. And maybe it's just me, but you can't have enough draw for a control deck
Deserted Temple is excellent with Cabal Coffers, and it's amazing with Thawing Glaciers as well.
If you can fit in Imp's Mischief, do so. That card is hilariously awesome and can be quite a rude awakening for someone since no one ever expects black to interact with spells on the stack.
Also consider Magus of the Coffers as Coffers #2 that can also be recurred via Xiahou Dun and other creature recursion.
I don't see why you would take out Promise of Power. If you don't need to draw cards, it spits out a huge demon that doubles as another threat. And maybe it's just me, but you can't have enough draw for a control deck
Deserted Temple is excellent with Cabal Coffers, and it's amazing with Thawing Glaciers as well.
If you can fit in Imp's Mischief, do so. That card is hilariously awesome and can be quite a rude awakening for someone since no one ever expects black to interact with spells on the stack.
Also consider Magus of the Coffers as Coffers #2 that can also be recurred via Xiahou Dun and other creature recursion.
Thanks SC,
All of these cards have been in the deck at one point or another.
I've never actually needed the token for Promise of Power, but point taken. It's a pretty bizarre concept that this deck is actually overloaded on draw spells, but if you ever try playing it you'll know what I mean.
Deserted Temple was cut after my first test run with this deck last year. It just didn't do enough by itself. I would never go out of my way to tutor for it either. At least with Candelabra of Tawnos, I can untap multiple lands, giving it more merit. I think Deserted Temple is fine if one doesn't own a Candelabra though.
Imp's Mischief has been on my "maybe" list for the longest time. I should just put it in already haha.
Magus of the Coffers is fine, but I've chosen not to include him because he has such extreme stigma. I suppose Nirkana Revenant will carry the same black sails, but at least she doesn't require an untap phase and can also double as a kill condition. I suppose Magus is a fine choice thanks to Corpse Dance, but it's still not enough to make me want to run him again.
There's a lot of subjectiveness when it comes to MBC I've noticed. More of it is personal preference and metagames than it is pure efficiency. That said, it's just habit for me to take everything with a grain of salt. I thank anyone who comes in here with suggestions though - it helps to spin the cranial cogs that are needed to make this deck better than it already is.
Deserted Temple is a card you don't have to tutor for. If you don't get it, the deck functions just fine. If you do draw into it, then Coffers and Thawing Glaciers become pretty silly. It's just one of those cards that is great to have, but the deck runs normally without having to sacrifice much to do so.
Deserted Temple is a card you don't have to tutor for. If you don't get it, the deck functions just fine. If you do draw into it, then Coffers and Thawing Glaciers become pretty silly. It's just one of those cards that is great to have, but the deck runs normally without having to sacrifice much to do so.
Point taken.
I can probably find room for it again somewhere. While we're on the subject of lands, I have honestly NEVER used Volrath's Stronghold. In my many months of playing this deck, I can't actually remember using it. I suppose "one day" I'll need it, but while putting my list under massive scrutiny over the past few days, it's actually on my watch list now. Seems like blasphemy, but it's true!
While talking about things to cut, I've also noticed these as under-performers:
- Phyrexian Reclamation
- Mirari
- Crucible of Worlds
- Innocent Blood
- Dregs of Sorrow
Just shoot me, cause by anyone's standards, these are absolute staples in any X-D deck. So why am I all of a sudden proposing these cuts? First off, Phyrexian Reclamation is a fairly expensive way of recurring X-D. I have used it, yes, but my #1 target is and always will be Corpse Dance. I suppose Phyrexian Reclamation is useful with cards like Myojin of Night's Reach, but in actual practice, I have never actually used reclamation in that way. I also can't run it out there early because it'll be shot down as collateral damage in random enchantment removal / sweepings. The main argument is that if I lose Corpse Dance, I lose my engine. That's partially true, but I still have Chainer (and Volrath's, ironically), as well as Profane Command and Grim Discovery to a lesser degree. And if anything, I can just continually hardcast his ass every turn - not like this deck has a problem producing mana in the late game. The card would honestly be fine if I ran over ~15 creatures, but I don't. I'd like to hear what people think here, cause I feel like I'll regret cutting this somewhere down the road.
Mirari is so love-hate. In some games, it can help me finish off multiple opponents, but most of the time this is because I have an over-abundance of mana. I would dare to say that this card is win-more. If I am tutoring for Mirari, it's much easier just to tutor for Sorin and knock someone's life total down to 10 so that I won't have to spend so many resources killing more than one person.
Crucible of World is in there for the obvious bandaid to Cabal Coffers and the off-chance of Strip recursion. Over the course of playing this deck however, I've actually despised seeing Strip Mine. There's really nothing I care about, as this is a largely non-interactive deck till I decide to totally kill someone. I'm not even afraid of Glacial Chasm! But I digress - Grim Discovery and Petrified Field are fine ways of retrieving a dead Cabal Coffers. Grim Discovery can even be recurred via X-D. The only reason I say this is because the deck has virtually no other use for Crucible of Worlds - it can't abuse it, and it's a dead draw early game. I know, I know: blasphemy right? After playing the deck so much, I can calmly say that Crucible is an under-performer.
Innocent Blood I used to think as necessary in order to stop the more hasty generals like Zur and Rofellos, but in multiplayer, those creatures will usually fall subject to extreme hate from the rest of the table. That doesn't excuse me from not having the answers, but perhaps this slot is better served as target removal. I do play in a more creature-light environment where everyone runs fatties instead of weenies (Progenitus included), which is why Innocent Blood is so great, but as of late I've been feeling its power waning. Should this be something else? I already have Fleshbag Marauder and Barter in Blood as my backup sacrifice effects for shroud creatures.
Dregs of Sorrow. Okay, this card isn't actually bad, but a lot of people have been telling me to cut it. I can totally understand why they wouldn't like it, but this card has been one of my guilty pleasures. I suppose it could be replaced with more "efficient" cards, like Sudden Death, but it's been pretty good about topping off my hand while removing the table's biggest threats. I'd like to hear peoples' opinions on this one.
Lastly, here are the cards I want to make room for:
- Wanderer's Twig / Pilgrim's Eye: I've fallen in love with these types of cards. They help you curve out WHILE hitting your land drops, and in return thin out your deck for you without creating massive tempo loss like with kite. This deck is all about hitting land drops!
- Imp's Mischief: there will ALWAYS be a target for this. Many times, the result can be gamebreaking. Wild Ricochet has taught me this well, and even though Mischief is inferior, it's still one of the best black has to offer.
- Nightmare Incursion: I had originally cut this because I found it overly redundant with Sadistic Sacrament, but now I'm wondering if having twice the amount of neutering cards is a better idea. Resolving either against most decks can make their lives extremely difficult - it should be worth the slot.
- Pestilence: something that was cut a long, long time ago. Now I'm wondering why haha. I think the main function of this card can be to kill multiple opponents simultaneously. If I can get off one drain, I can spend the next turn tutoring this up then killing everyone else. By itself, it can just be a weak sweeper. Thoughts?
I've been working on Mono black Maga for awhile and we have pretty similar looking lists. A few cards on mine you aren't using that have been good for me are:
Infernal Darkness - This will often just ruin multiple people at the table and like Humility, while they will may angry with you and want to gang up on you they won't be able to since they've just been absolutely crippled. You can even recur it with your general if the upkeep cost gets too high.
Lethal Vapors - The kill spell that just keeps on killing. With your general you can prevent someone from ever having a turn again if they want to get rid of it without actual real removal and it doesn't really affect your general anyways since you are always immediately saccing him (I assume).
Vedalken Orrery - It looks like I play in a more counterspell heavy environment so this card might not be quite as good for you but it has been incredible for me. Enables so many broken things, end of turn Drains, instant speed tutors, I've even resolved a bunch of spells with a Forbid (buyback paid) on the stack, or you can live the dream with instant speed Yawgmoth's Will. Not so synergystic with your general but great with the rest of the deck.
Bubbling Muck - It's a 1 shot sure but I still think it is very good. Really nice with Yawgmoth's Will and Candelabra of Tawnos too.
Of that list, I like Infernal Darkness. I'm not sure what I'd cut for it, but it's definitely worth considering.
I'd also like to ask opinions on Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre. Emrakul does what Mirari always wanted to do - it gives you another turn to kill everyone. Ulamog is just a great threat by himself, and doubles as a removal spell. He might also find a spot in here.
How has this card been treating you? I find that it is way too slow and that the only time it is ever good is when you have a 1 land 1 glaciers hand. It seems way too mana intensive. Its a cool card, but I usually don't run out of lands.
1 Scrying Sheets
This card too seems way too mana intensive. I suppose Sensei's top would be good with this, but I think top doesn't deserves a slot.
1 Emrakul - I just realized today that if you have enough mana, you can sacrifice this guy and search your deck and play him again every turn. You could have infinate extra turns if nothing gets countered or graveyard removed.
How has this card been treating you? I find that it is way too slow and that the only time it is ever good is when you have a 1 land 1 glaciers hand. It seems way too mana intensive. Its a cool card, but I usually don't run out of lands.
1 Scrying Sheets
This card too seems way too mana intensive. I suppose Sensei's top would be good with this, but I think top doesn't deserves a slot.
1 Emrakul - I just realized today that if you have enough mana, you can sacrifice this guy and search your deck and play him again. It's possible to take 2-3 extra turns with him. Then you'll win for sure. I'm still not sure he's worth the slot though.
I really hate to bash, but your list is honestly my list with like 5-6 marginal preference slot changes. I've seen you probing my thread even before you started your own, and I wasn't going to say anything but I probably should now. I've played this list for quite some time now, and there are some very narrow choices on here that you can ONLY find on my Xiahou Dun list and no one else's. If you want to use the list, I have no problem, but please give credit where credit is due, especially if you're going to make a new thread while mine is still fairly active. Pysces and I have grinded away on this X-D configuration to make it the best possible "drain the table" list.
Thawing Glaciers is amazing. If you have played the deck, you'll know how important developing your Swamp count is. Thawing Glaciers does both this AND helps to recover you from LD. It's not a matter of "slow" as much as it is "steady". I also do not run any fetchlands because this deck WANTS to hit its land drops, not thin the deck out exclusively.
Scrying Sheets is a recent addition. I haven't test it yet, but why not? I've been finding cards like Volrath's Stronghold lackluster, so I might cut that instead. I like drawing free cards, especially if there's nothing to do at the moment. Even though I've dropped it a lot, the curve of this deck's business spells is still fairly high.
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn you don't even need to do it multiple times. After I discovered how much of a HOUSE this guy is, I changed my gameplan to include a Pestilence effect (Crypt Rats in this case). I've had a chance to do this a few times in real practice (with proxies). Usually I'll build up 2-3 mana doublers, tutor for Myojin of Night's Reach, pitch everyone's hand, hopefully play another mana doubler, then play Emrakul. This allows me to have around 60-120 mana on the next turn, where I can literally just drain one guy, tutor for Pestilence, then kill everyone else.
Sensei's Divining Top is fine. If anything, it helps you fix your land drops early on. I have never regretted having it and I think it's wrong not to include the card. I have been considering tuning the list to include Null Rod, but I think there's too many downsides to it.
Mindslaver is okay. I don't run Beacon of Unrest (not being able to come back via X-D is a huge downer), so I have no way to recur it outside of a one-shot Yawgwin. Would be okay, though I don't think it's really necessary.
Grim Discovery is one of my subtle MVPs. It's done so many things for me and can be recurred via X-D. In a sense, I like this card more than I like Crucible, since all Crucible was really in here for originally was as Coffer and Geddon insurance.
Mana Acceleration - I've been very wary of running Mana Crypt, but I think it might be a necessary evil. This deck already loses a lot of life from random stuff, so we'll see. I'm going to test this in my Coldsteel Heart slot sometime.
Edit: While I'm here, I might as well post my latest changelog (also seen at the top) -->
- Innocent Blood
- Crucible of Worlds
- Mirari
- Dregs of Sorrow
- Volrath's Stronghold
- Withered Wretch
- Bojuka Bog
+ Deserted Temple
+ Suffer the Past
+ Coldsteel Heart / Mana Crypt
+ Crypt Rats
+ Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
+ Imp's Mischief
+ Scrying Sheets
Any thought on Rings of Brighthearth? It might be a win-more card, but it doubles up on Xiahou Dun, both Liliana and Sorin, Thawing Glaciers, Strip Mine, Scrying Sheets, Bauble, Armillary Sphere, Expedition Map, Phyrexian Processor, Phyrexian Reclamation, Chainer, and turns Top into "Draw a card" for 3 mana a pop.
I'm considering squeezing in room for Rings in my Volrath deck myself, as it would really increase his lethality.
I also prefer Thrashing Wumpus over Crypt Rats, because with Wumpus, you can clear out tokens and other wimpy creatures without losing him. Hell, if you're willing to up the curve of your deck, then Pestilence Demon from RoE has both of them beat.
Any thought on Rings of Brighthearth? It might be a win-more card, but it doubles up on Xiahou Dun, both Liliana and Sorin, Thawing Glaciers, Strip Mine, Scrying Sheets, Bauble, Armillary Sphere, Expedition Map, Phyrexian Processor, Phyrexian Reclamation, Chainer, and turns Top into "Draw a card" for 3 mana a pop.
I'm considering squeezing in room for Rings in my Volrath deck myself, as it would really increase his lethality.
I also prefer Thrashing Wumpus over Crypt Rats, because with Wumpus, you can clear out tokens and other wimpy creatures without losing him. Hell, if you're willing to up the curve of your deck, then Pestilence Demon from RoE has both of them beat.
I have given Rings of Brighthearth thought after Bryant Cook mentioned them over on the Source forums. Indeed, the primary reason to run it would be for the interaction with Sorin Markov. I think it has the same effect that Mirari has - it CAN be good. Actually, it CAN be insane. But is it necessary? I don't think it's worth a slot in the deck. However, I think it's vital for Volrath since it's basically going to allow him to one-shot people with ease. Everything else becomes gravy.
I am, in fact, not really willing to up my curve. The whole reason I chose Crypt Rats over Pestilence was because it cost 1 less. True Thrashing Wumpus can survive, and Pestilence Demon is a big flier, but that's not really the true function of the pestilence effect; I'm playing pestilence to use as a combo piece to wipe out more than one player; the ability to take out tokens is just a side benefit.
As soon as Eldrazi rolls around on paper, I plan on playing this deck rigorously in ~4 player multiplayer. I'll let you know how these massive overhauls over the past few weeks have been panning out. It's hard to get a good look at things when the list has been constantly shifting.
Have you tried out Grave Pact or Butcher of Malakir? They have good synergy with Xiahou Dun.
Also, do you have any experience with Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief? I was thinking of giving her a try in my Maga deck, possibly even as my general.
Sorry for not keeping this thread more updated. I haven't even had a chance to play EDH since RoE came out, so stuff like Emrakul, the Aeons Torn remains untested. However, the preview for M11's Grave Titan had me all excited to play EDH again. Even though Grave Titan isn't particularly insane in here, the timmy inside of me is going bonkers.
Anyways, to answer some of these questions, The Abyss is definitely replaceable. The reason I run it is because it rarely affects me, as the creatures in my graveyard can always be recurred. I play in a metagame where players like to play high-power single threats, and The Abyss shines here. Call to the Grave is decent if you want to find room for more zombies (Helldozer, Withered Wretch,Undead Gladiator, and Grave Titan come to mind). Otherwise, any other removal would work and is completely dependent on your meta. Some suggestions of dynamic removal that you might want to experiment with: Consuming Vapors and Death Cloud.
Yes, Gravepact effects are always decent in MBC, but this deck is hardly made to abuse them. I tend to look at the larger picture, and in the grand scheme of things Gravepact and Butcher of Malakir just do not do enough in this deck. If there were threats I needed to take care of, I'd just recur removal with Xiahou Dun or tutor for it.
The deck has three primary focuses: ramping, neutralization, and high-impact spells. Believe it or not, little synergies don't really have any room here. Every card in this deck is chosen to aid the main plan of the goal, and thanks to X-D and his monstrous card advantage engine, everything else falls into place.
And lastly, Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief. Believe me when I say that I want to play this card just as much as you do. In fact, it may find room one day. I'm quickly realizing that the massive drain plan I have rarely falls into place perfectly in multiplayer, thus cards like Helldozer, Drana, and Grave Titan (or any other high-powered stand-alone threat) become much more valuable. Now that everyone is catching onto the hint that ARTIFACT DESTRUCTION IS GOOD, it really hinders my gameplan of ramping with massive amounts of brown acceleration. At one point I even considered playing Guardian Beast! Drana, while frail, is definitely a monstrosity when left unchecked, especially in this deck where you may have a mana doubler at any given point in time.
I'd like to hear other experienced mono black players' opinions and strategies on this archetype.
I mentioned them earlier but I'd like to hear your reasoning for excluding Mindslaver and Infernal Darkness. Infernal Darkness has been great for me just to mana screw the crap out of people, I could see it being less useful if your meta is really artifact mana heavy or lots of black maybe but I like it. Mindslaver is one of the strongest effects you can get for 10 mana and it sounds like the decks in your meta are pretty strong making Mindslaver even more effective (since you are stealing better cards basically). How has the Arena of the Ancients worked out? Seems pretty narrow but against the right generals I'm sure it is pretty awesome.
I mentioned them earlier but I'd like to hear your reasoning for excluding Mindslaver and Infernal Darkness. Infernal Darkness has been great for me just to mana screw the crap out of people, I could see it being less useful if your meta is really artifact mana heavy or lots of black maybe but I like it. Mindslaver is one of the strongest effects you can get for 10 mana and it sounds like the decks in your meta are pretty strong making Mindslaver even more effective (since you are stealing better cards basically). How has the Arena of the Ancients worked out? Seems pretty narrow but against the right generals I'm sure it is pretty awesome.
Also, (at first glance) I'm suprised by the lack of equipment in here
Good luck with the deck, I hope you continue having fun with edh!
Thanks for the responses.
Mindslaver is not in here because while it is powerful, I don't have a way to end the game with it. Sure it is a good play, but I don't have any ways to recur it other than with Yawgmoth's Will. I feel like the deck isn't set up enough to abuse it, like a Sharuum deck can. All that said, I don't think it's a bad choice, but it's definitely a preference one for MBC.
Infernal Darkness draws too much unwanted attention and doesn't particularly further your gameplan. I used to play with Contamination in an older version of this deck, and I don't feel like it's the best way to go.
Arena of the Ancients has been one of my unsung MVPs. I think it's far from narrow as there are many generals that need to be tapped or attack to win. When I first built this deck, I ran tons and tons of removal. What I began to notice was an overflow of it and that Xiahou Dun's recursion backed by the insane amount of tutors made that strategy pretty much unnecessary. I then found a few gems that were perfect for slowing the game down while I set up my drain kills, and that was when The Abyss and Arena of the Ancients entered the list.
I've already talked about Rings of Brighthearth, Scroll Rack, Crucible of Worlds, Sensei's Divining Top, and Fetch Lands. Extensive play with MBC shows that some cards that are so "obvious" includes aren't actually that good in practice. I like my cards to be non-dependent on each other, that's just the way I like to build my lists. Not saying that support cards aren't good, but something like Rings of Brighthearth have such narrow chances to be abused in a deck like this that I don't think it warrants the spot.
And lastly about the equipment - if you read my opening post I talk about the primary strategy of winning with this deck (you are a sleeper for most the game, then you neutralize all threats with removal and discard, followed by large drains), I actually don't have many creatures (besides my general) that are designed to charge into the red zone. I used to run Nightmare Lash and/or Sigil of Distinction for horsemanship kills, but in all honesty, I've never won those games. When you're that desperate for a kill that you need to attack to win with this deck, there's probably multiple obstacles in the way. That's also why I wanted to ask opinions about strategy! The drain plan works, but it's pretty rocky most the time. My mana doublers get blown up left and right and I constantly am left without means to end the game. Thus, I propose the addition of powerful creatures and more hand disruption. Cards like Helldozer can single-handedly win games for you, and I think he should be in here. Drana may find room as well, being a continual removal source and a gigantic beatstick. Grave Titan is looking to be a massive, cost-efficient threat that if left unchecked can quickly overwhelm an opponent. I've already gone through the entire cast of black creatures, but I'd still like to hear what has been working for other people. Ditto for hand disruption!
EDITS:
- I'll give Rings a shot. Someone pointed out that it works with Xiahou Dun, and that sheds a new light on the card for me. Don't know why I hadn't thought of that before, but I think it's mostly cause I was talking to Maga players. I'm also afraid it might end up having the "danger of cool things" effect, just like how I thought Mirari was really good in here. It's still decent, but it doesn't make the cut. Hopefully Rings will be different.
- As for creatures to add, what do you guys think of these: Helldozer, Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief, Pestilence Demon, Grave Titan, and Guardian Beast?
- With the reinsertion of so many high CC permanents, I might want to add in Cabal Conditioning.
- Consuming Vapors also looks decent.
Mindslaver is not in here because while it is powerful, I don't have a way to end the game with it. Sure it is a good play, but I don't have any ways to recur it other than with Yawgmoth's Will. I feel like the deck isn't set up enough to abuse it, like a Sharuum deck can. All that said, I don't think it's a bad choice, but it's definitely a preference one for MBC.
Mindslaver isn't a win condition, it's a piece of disruption. Just casting it and using it on someone is abusing it just fine, recurring Mindslaver is usually win more anyways. I've been playing it for a long time now in MBC and it is very effective at simply crippling 1 opponent or possibly 2 if 1 person has the ability to cripple another. You can also look at this as hand disruption if you want which is something you were asking for more of.
Infernal Darkness draws too much unwanted attention and doesn't particularly further your gameplan. I used to play with Contamination in an older version of this deck, and I don't feel like it's the best way to go.
Infernal Darkness does draw attention but the nice thing about it is that it completely shuts your opponents out from casting non black spells which usually means they basically can't do much and have no way to get rid of it. It is similar to Humility in that people really want to kill you when it is in play but it stops them from doing so. Contamination is a very poor comparison in this deck because it requires additional cards to keep it in play, Infernal Darkness has a pretty reasonable upkeep cost to keep it in play for 3-5 turns which is usually all you will need. Also as you stated your game plan this actually does fit pretty well, you build up mana then drop this. It acts similarly to hand disruption in that it prevents people from casting any spells to disrupt you while you seal up the game.
And lastly about the equipment - if you read my opening post I talk about the primary strategy of winning with this deck (you are a sleeper for most the game, then you neutralize all threats with removal and discard, followed by large drains), I actually don't have many creatures (besides my general) that are designed to charge into the red zone. I used to run Nightmare Lash and/or Sigil of Distinction for horsemanship kills, but in all honesty, I've never won those games. When you're that desperate for a kill that you need to attack to win with this deck, there's probably multiple obstacles in the way. That's also why I wanted to ask opinions about strategy! The drain plan works, but it's pretty rocky most the time. My mana doublers get blown up left and right and I constantly am left without means to end the game. Thus, I propose the addition of powerful creatures and more hand disruption. Cards like Helldozer can single-handedly win games for you, and I think he should be in here. Drana may find room as well, being a continual removal source and a gigantic beatstick. Grave Titan is looking to be a massive, cost-efficient threat that if left unchecked can quickly overwhelm an opponent. I've already gone through the entire cast of black creatures, but I'd still like to hear what has been working for other people. Ditto for hand disruption!
For beatsticks I use Sundering Titan, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre and I just put in Pestilence Demon but haven't drawn him in the handful of games I've played since Rise released. Sundering Titan has been pretty effective for me so far and Ulamog can hit enchantments which should be enough. Helldozer was always too slow for me so I cut him eventually but you have easier ways to recur him so maybe he'd work out better for you. Grave Titan seems pretty good though.
My strategy is similar to yours but the problem I run into is when facing blue based control decks they are able to out control me. I can't just sit there and try and be the sleeper or I'll just end up losing in the late game. Beaters are helpful here to take a more proactive approach to winning the game because MBC has to take on the aggro role when facing blue control. Honestly though I tend to have real trouble dealing with these types of decks because MBC isn't really set up to take on an aggressive role and I'm not sure if there is really a good answer monoblack has to blue control decks. Gaddock Teeg also happens to randomly destroy my deck most of the time. Maybe it would be helpful if you explained the types of decks you are having trouble against.
I've made an attempt to be less reliant on artifact mana and go more for the Coffers route (then copying coffers with Vesuva and/or getting Deserted Temple) for my mana needs because it is much more difficult to destroy than artifact mana. The problem is it is also a real pain to recur, I'm really not sure if Ill-Gotten Gains would help here but it has been tremendously useful for me (of course Maga isn't too good with graveyard recursion which isn't normally a problem for you). Also my friend was playing his monoblack Drana deck and his Coffers got smashed 3 times in one game but he just kept getting it back by shuffling it back in with Eldrazi then tutoring it up. Might have just been a fluke game but I was surprised how easily he kept getting it back.
Thanks for the response.
Once again, sorry for the really long delay.
I agree with your reasoning on a good amount of the cards. I also checked out your list, and I do like it a lot. However, X-D is inherently different because of the interaction with graveyard recursion spells (note I still run cards like Kagemaro, Fleshbag Marauder, and Shriekmaw to be used with Corpse Dance etc). I'm going to go over a few cards that I want to put in the deck and then a few cards that I might consider pulling out. Let me know what you guys think...
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief: in my quest to find better threats, she was always on my list. Now I'm reading from all sorts of people that she's actually better than she looks (and she already looks on the verge of viability). After hearing such claims, I think I want to put her in the deck as another large, stand-alone threat.
Grave Titan: after much thought and research, this isn't what the deck needs. Yes he can hold the ground and cause pressure, but he doesn't provide the kind of threat that casting Helldozer or Drana would (the kind of threat that screams "game ender").
Helldozer: this is the other for sure card that's coming into the deck. I've witnessed enough games where an active Helldozer can demolish one or two players - I actually think that Helldozer outclasses Sundering Titan in X-D because he can be brought back with recursion and, of course, X-D himself.
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre: everyone is doing it, so might as well. Ulamog can be pushed out fairly early thanks to the insane mana generation this deck offers and answers artifact/enchantment threats that we originally had problems with. He's also an 11/11 indestructable threat that will be a pain to deal with. My only problem with the Eldrazi is that they sometimes get in the way of my graveyard recursion. Thankfully both Ulamog and Emrakul are hard to deal with - I will not be running Kozilek for the opposite reason.
So as far as creature updates go, I think I'll be adding in Drana, Helldozer, and Ulamog. I will not be adding Grave Titan, Guardian Beast, or Pestilence Demon.
As for other cards, I think Infernal Darkness is indeed worth looking at, after hearing Donald's explanations. Grim Monolith might also make it in here, so now I have to decide what to cut. I think Phyrexian Processor (for Drana), Duplicant (for Ulamog), Shriekmaw (for Helldozer), and one more card for Infernal Darkness might be leaving, but we'll see. Suggestions? Comments?
A friend pointed out that the Eldrazi are actually a liability when playing vs blue deck. Unless I run a significantly larger number of sacrifice effects (like Innocent Blood and stuff), I probably shouldn't be depending on these guys. I haven't played very many games since RoE, but yesterday I did get my Emrakul briberied against me. Ulamog is much more manageable, but the main reason I'd want him is because he can hit enchantments much more reliably. However, All is Dust should be close to being enough.
So in order to still maintain my original gameplan, I'm going to try out Guardian Beast in that same slot. That way I can still pass the turn without worrying about dying horrendously. Combined with Infernal Darkness and Myojin of Night's Reach, I should be able to hold the ground for a turn.
So the current changes stand as:
Shriekmaw -> Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Phyrexian Processor -> Infernal Darkness
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn -> Guardian Beast
I still want to fit in either Helldozer or Sundering Titan as another major disruption card, so we'll see how my games pan out and I'll keep this thread updated.
So many of you know that I don't actually play (or own) this deck anymore. I just wanted to put this here to let people know that I won't be updating this list anymore with future sets, as I don't see myself coming back to it. I think it's a great list for multiplayer play, so don't take it as me putting the deck down because it was bad or anything like that. If you'd like to see a more degenerate version of this deck, please check out rageinuyasha's thread, which has a Contamination-centric build. I hope everyone who has seen this list has been inspired or given some cool ideas. Long live mono black!
UPDATES @ 10.07.10
SCARS ADDED ^
Exsanguinate joins the ranks!
Most recent change log:
Crypt Rats -> Exsanguinate
Idea List:
Ashes to Ashes
Nightmare Incursion
? Helldozer
? Bloodchief Ascension
I've been playing Xiahou Dun as my EDH general for quite some time now. This deck first started off as Maga, Traitor to Mortals, but after I found this general I instantly fell in love. He is, in my opinion, one of the best: he offers flexibility, utility, built-in redundancy, the ability to swing for the win, and most importantly, the deck can function completely fine without him. When allowed to, he can generate massive amounts of card advantage or force through game-breaking spells over and over again.
I built this deck with a very clear idea in mind: having my opponents play at my pace. I prefer to design the deck so that I can consistently curve out and steadily build my mana base, thus maintaining a high level of threat density and minimizing dead draws. In order for this deck to "combo off", you need a certain set of cards and to ease into this process, I use a plethora of removal and proactive disruption. (Please note that I abbreviate Xiahou Dun with X-D)
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Chainer, Dementia Master
1 Kagemaro, First to Suffer
1 Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
1 Nirkana Revenant
1 Myojin of Night's Reach
Removal & Sweepers
1 Innocent Blood
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Rend Flesh
1 Damnation
1 Mutilate
1 Decree of Pain
1 All is Dust
1 Oblivion Stone
Drains
1 Consume Spirit
1 Exsanguinate
1 Profane Command
Neutralization & Locks
1 Mind Twist
1 Mind Shatter
1 Mind Sludge
1 Nightmare Void
1 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Suffer the Past
1 The Abyss
1 Nether Void
1 Infernal Darkness
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Anvil of Bogardan
Draw & Manipulation
1 Night's Whisper
1 Sign in Blood
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Scroll Rack
Tutors
1 Imperial Seal
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Cruel Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
1 Beseech the Queen
1 Diabolic Tutor
1 Shred Memory
Utility & Recursion
1 Corpse Dance
1 Phyrexian Reclamation
1 Grim Discovery
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Imp's Mischief
1 Rings of Brighthearth
1 Sorin Markov
Artifact Mana
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Armillary Sphere
1 Expedition Map
1 Doubling Cube
1 Extraplanar Lens
1 Gauntlet of Power
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Jet Medallion
Lands
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Petrified Field
1 Deserted Temple
1 Thawing Glaciers
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Strip Mine
31 Snow-covered Swamp
Overview:
So the deck has a few primary paths to victory. Almost all of them involve the use of X-D, but that doesn't mean that he is necessary, it just means the task will just take that much longer. Generally, the first tutor that I play will fetch either a recursion spell (Corpse Dance is the #1 target here) or a mana doubler (Cabal Coffers is a common target). It depends on the situation of course, but those are the general guidelines. After you have your first tutor, you can keep re-using X-D to fetch the tutor and then find whatever else you need for any situation.
In a vacuum, the deck usually assumes Plan A, which is described below. What usually happens is the following:
Xiahou Dun, the One-eyed + Corpse Dance + any tutor
1. Build up mana doublers and have X-D engine ready (Chainer/Corpse Dance/Profane Command)
2. Make sure to have security before trying to go off, such as Infernal Darkness, Guardian Beast, the Anvil/Chains combo, or Mind Twist/Shatter/Sludge.
3. Tutor for Myojin of Night's Reach, pitch everyone's hand. (This is the ultimate security and key play)
3. Tutor for remaining mana doubling pieces (such as Candelabra of Tawnos) OR go for the Deserted Temple/Cabal Coffers/Rings of Brighthearth combo.
4. Amount massive mana (usually between 60-120), and tutor for a Drain spell to drain one player.
6. Tutor for Crypt Rats and pestilence the rest of the table.
PLAN A: Drain
This is the most common way that I end games. This usually involves one or more of my mana-doubling spells, such as Cabal Coffers, Doubling Cube, Gauntlet of Power, Nirkana Revenant or Extraplanar Lens. It is absolutely crucial that you find these, because you will rely on the massive amounts of mana to constantly recur X-D with a recursion spell and re-cast your Consume Spirit. Even if you can't pull off the grand-master plan mentioned above, you can always single-target Consume Spirit or Profane Command loop to finish individual players off.
PLAN B: Beats and Vampires
X-D has horsemanship, aka he's unblockable. In 1v1, you would probably run Hatred, but this just doesn't work out in multiplayer. Sigil of Distinction and Nightmare Lash work, but I've opted not to include these anymore. If you're doing this to win, you're already desperate. However, with the addition of a few powerful vampires, you'll have somewhat of a "man-plan" should things go terribly awry (a resolved, kicked Sadistic Sacrament to you will usually do that). Drana, Nirkana Revenant, Sorin Markov, and our friend Chainer are all solid alternatives to ending the game.
PLAN C: Sterilization
Okay this isn't really a plan, but it's good to keep this in the back of your head for odd situations. Late game, this deck to be able to produce tons of mana. With such arbitrarily large amounts of swamp power at your disposal, you can use X-D to return Sadistic Sacrament and remove entire decks from the game. And even if you dont RFG their deck, usually one kicked Sadistic Sacrament is enough to take out the majority of threats from a deck (and all combo pieces against a combo deck), let alone two or three times more.
COMBOS
It's important to understand all the minute interactions with the deck and some may be fairly obvious already, but I want to point to those unfamiliar with the archetype that there are combos that will win you the game.
Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed + Profane Command
These two cards provide a self-incorporated loop that allows you to drain incessantly for as much mana as you have, once per turn. Profane Command allows you two things: have a player lose X life and bring back a creature with X cmc. Cast this spell for all the mana you have, targeting an opponent's face, then use the second effect to return X-D into play. You then sacrifice X-D to return Profane Command to your hand and repeat this again next turn.
Cabal Coffers + Deserted Temple + Rings of Brighthearth
This is the true infinite mana combo that the deck has. The requirement, other than these three pieces, is that Cabal Coffers must produce at least 6 upon activation, because the loop costs 5. You activate Cabal Coffers, then activate Deserted Temple targeting Cabal Coffers. While this is on the stack, copy the Deserted Temple ability targeting Deserted Temple. Now you have both Coffers and Deserted Temple untapped, spend 2 mana to use Coffers agaiin, 1 mana to active Temple, and 2 mana to copy Temple's ability with Rings, netting you any extra mana after the initial 5. Repeat ad nauseum and kill everyone
Chains of Mephistopheles + Anvil of Bogardan
This is the lockdown combo of the deck. If you resolve this, make sure you are ready to win with the mana you already have because no one at the table will ever draw a card again. What basically happens is that Anvil adds to your draw step with a looter ability. Chains however states that whenever you draw a card, you must discard one first. So during each player's draw step, he/she draws a card, Anvil triggers, draw a card then discard a card, then discard again to Chains for drawing a second card. As an X-D player, you can still use the GY as a resource, so running this combo out there is a good way to draw some counterspells early on. Even after the combo is going, you can use your graveyard with X-D while other players who do not abuse the GY will suffer. Note that I have not tested this combo in actual practice yet, but multiple discussions with friends have concluded that this will be a strong inclusion. The other, more common black combo is Leyline of the Void/Helm of Obedience, which may possibly find its way in here should this combo not prove itself
Other noteworthy interactions:
Corpse Dance w/: Fleshbag Marauder, Crypt Rats, Kagemaro
Rings of Brighthearth w/: Xiahou Dun, Thawing Glaciers (insane!), Shred Memory *transmute* (insane!), Drana, Kagemaro, Sorin
And for those interested, here is the CMC breakdown. I listed spells at the cost they would be cast (ie Sadistic Sacrament @ 10).
0CC O
1CC OOOOOO
2CC OOOOOOOOOOOOO
3CC OOOOOOOOOOO
4CC OOOOOOOO
5CC OOOOOOOO
6CC OOO
7CC OO
8CC OO
10CC O
XCC OOOOO
Dealing with Weaknesses:
Graveyard Hate: directly interferes with Plan A. It's tough, especially these days when everyone is aware of how powerful the graveyard is and runs 2-4 dedicated slots to hose such strategies. It's difficult to play around and even more difficult to see coming, so my best suggestion is that if you expect GY hate from a particular player, either quickly dump his hand with a twist effect or tutor for Sadistic Sacrament and nab the cards from him before he gets the chance to ruin your day.
Enchantments and Artifacts: black's age old nemesis. We have very few ways to deal with these rather troublesome permanents and will have to rely on our two reset buttons, Oblivion Stone and All is Dust, to get us out of trouble. If you're good enough with politics, you can always try to persuade a neighbor to do the dirty deed for you.
Jester's Cap Effects: I think this one applies to every deck out there, but the point is having a cap effect on you is really devastating, as X-D is a combo deck at heart. Granted you still have the vampire plan, it really pales in comparison to amassing mana and one-shotting the board. If you can try and twist your opponent before that happens, power to you. Otherwise, plan on winning with vampires or general beats. It'll be hard times ahead either way.
Card Choices:
There's really nothing to say here. All of the creatures I've included all serve their purposes very well. Fleshbag Marauder has been an MVP for me, and I chose to run some other creatures so that I may properly abuse my recursion spells (Kagemaro is a good example here).
Removal and Sweepers
I've overloaded the list with sweepers in order to make sure that I can keep things off the board at a whim. I used to have even more mizer cards, like Hero's Demise, but as the list evolved, I've moved onto even more devastating spells. Arena of the Ancients is the most recent addition and I fully expect it to become a powerful asset. It not only stops almost all relevant generals from doing their thing, but Xiahou Dun is absolutely unaffected by it.
Drains
After playing many games with this deck, I've found that I only really ever needed one Consume Spirit in the deck. Corrupt doesn't work well without Mirari, and Drain Life/Consume Spirit/Soul Burn all suck as removal. I usually don't want to see these unless I'm ready to kill someone or straight up win. Consume Spirit was the chosen drain card because Drain Life doesn't allow you to gain life past the toughness of a creature you kill (can be relevant).
Neutralization and Locks
These cards are what make black worth playing. All of these cards immediately take out the biggest threat at the table. Sadistic Sacrament doubles as a preemptive strike against GY hate. Other cards like Infernal Darkness are great at locking the game down before you win. The most recent addition to the deck is the Chains of Mephistopheles/Anvil of Bogardan lock. Chains by itself locks hand sizes and doesn't allow blue players to go bonkers with cards like Rhystic Study. Anvil of Bogardan grants everyone Spellbook and a free looter card every turn. While this may be slightly unfavorable, it's still an okay card by itself. However, when combined the combo makes it so that everyone loses their draw steps and no one may ever draw an extra card again. This will be a primary route to victory against blue-based decks.
Card Draw
Extensive play with this deck shows that high-cc card drawing spells aren't really that great. They overfill your hand that you cannot empty quickly and don't help you curve out. Sign in Blood and Night's Whisper are great for exactly the opposite reasons. There are also others, like Phyrexian Etchings and Skeletal Scrying, but the former is a worse Necropotence and the latter hurts the recursion strategy with X-D.
Tutors
The heart and soul of black. The best kind of tutor in this deck is the kind that puts directly to hand. This is why Demonic Tutor, Beseech the Queen, Diabolic Tutor, and Grim Tutor are the most valuable spells in the deck. They kickstart the X-D recursion engine! I've considered running Imperial Seal, but the fact that it doesn't put into hand means you can't "combo off" with it.
Utility and Recursion
All the goodies are in here, and I believe they need no introduction. Scroll Rack is indeed one of the golden eggs of this deck.
Mana
The mana base was built in a way to maximize the use of Swamps. The deck is very black symbol hungry, so I've kept colorless lands to a minimum.
One-Eyed Candy (My Pimped Deck!)
I also have about 7 pages of un-used EDH MBC foils. I'll post that sometime too!
Always looking for feedback and insight, thanks!
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Nice list! I may disagree on the 'no artifact accel' but to all their vices, i suppose. With that many basics, though, you may find Terrain Generator useful.
-C.S. Lewis
EDH
Obzedat - Still Alive
Retired - Nicol Bolas
Thanks for the response.
I've already commented on both cards in the overview and card choice sections. Hatred is indeed not here because it is a 1-shot card that will only kill one opponent and cost a hefty 18 life (god forbid it is countered - you still pay the life). Sigil of Distinction is a fine card to run as well, but I prefer Nightmare Lash while I don't have a Grim Tutor (Dimir House Guard fetches it).
Terrain Generator is definitely on my watch list. I think it may replace Volrath's Stronghold (call me crazy, but I have never even activated the land ONCE in all of my time playing this deck).
I've also been toying with the idea of cutting Dawn of the Dead. I honestly only need Corpse Dance and Phyrexian Reclamation (with Profane Command as backup). Dawn of the Dead is only a one-use-per-turn card, which makes it much less appealing than Dance and Reclamation. If anyone has any better suggestions for recursive cards, I'd be glad to hear them. But for now, Dawn of the Dead probably won't make the cut.
Another card that has been surprisingly lackluster is Tendrils of Corruption. In all honesty, I'd probably rather run Chainer's Edict or Hero's Demise over that again. It only hits creatures, and sometimes falls short early game because I need to kill a creature that has more toughness than swamps I have.
If I were to add artifact mana accel, it wouldn't be anything more than Sol Ring and Jet Medallion.
So, toying with these changes:
- Gatekeeper of Malakir (not so useful without Phyrexian Reclamation)
- Nightmare Lash (Replaced with Sigil of Distinction)
- Dimir House Guard (Upgrading)
- Dawn of the Dead (After playing the deck, another one of these type of cards isn't necessary. Plus, it's only one use per turn)
- Tendrils of Corruption
- Some Land (if I cut Dawn, probably should cut something else than Volrath's Stronghold - Bojuka Bog possibly)
+ Sol Ring
+ Jet Medallion
+ Sigil of Distinction
+ Grim Tutor
+ Chainer's Edict
+ Terrain Generator
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Halfdane
Sek'Kuar
Please remember to autocard, just do [ card ] CARD NAME [ / card ] and for decks you can cover the whole thing in one deck tag like this: [ deck ] All of the cards in the deck [ / deck ]
Thanks for the suggestion. I chose Withered Wretch because his activation cost is 1 instead of Graverobber's 2, but the difference is negligible. The other main reason was cause I was running Call to the Grave, but since that's not here anymore, I suppose switching to Graverobber is the optimal call.
I'd like to hear everyone's opinions on the ratios of role-players in this deck:
- Tutors: they are what make the deck tick. Should I be playing even more cards like Brainspoil and Imperial Seal?
- Mana: I'd like to see a strong argument for artifact mana here. Mine is that I want to minimize dead draws and since many of our spells require Swamps anyways (Cabal Coffers), the need for artifact mana can be offset by running cheap ways to stall the early game.
- Removal: at what point am I running too much? Am I running the right kind?
What cards do you think are unnecessary? What have you guys seen work? What has been overrated?
EDIT:
After some discussion with a fellow Sally member (Pysces), we've derived the following changes (including the ones in my previous post):
- Gatekeeper of Malakir
- Nightmare Lash
- Dimir House Guard
- Dawn of the Dead
- Tendrils of Corruption
- Graveborn Muse
- Death Cloud
- Syphon Mind
- Boseiju
+ Sol Ring
+ Jet Medallion
+ Sigil of Distinction
+ Grim Tutor
+ Hero's Demise
+ Candelabra of Tawnos
+ Scroll Rack
+ Ancient Tomb
+ Terrain Generator (Wayfarer's Bauble)
Basically the addition of more mize cards allow me to play the early game a lot more comfortably. The inclusion of Sol Ring and Jet Medallion also go towards that cause, helping me ease into my middle game where I can freely dominate and disrupt. Candelabra of Tawnos was originally dismissed when I first created this deck (due to cost reasons), but now I feel like it should be an auto-include. This card, when paired with any of my mana doublers, is just bonkers.
EDIT #2:
Made some more changes to the add/subtract list. While I was scanning the best possible early-game targets for a Shred Memory transmute, I totally forgot about Scroll Rack! This card is decidedly INSANE in EDH - I can't believe I forgot about it. Ancient Tomb was added for additional acceleration. I'm trying to keep it minute and less vulnerable to artifact hate (like Mana Crypt). I've been blown out by Austere Commands and Shattering Sprees, which has led me to shy away from amassing artifacts.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
So far Worldwake has brought us two staple goodies! All is Dust and Nirkana Revenant!
Since my last post, I've made the following changes. One of the most important facets of playing the deck is hitting your land drops. Because of this, I've cut some excess spells to make sure that I can curve and develop properly. Granted this deck folds hard to LD (Armageddon) and mass artifact/enchantment removal (Akroma's Vengeance), it's best that you are able to develop efficiently and hopefully strip that person's hand or RFG the card via Sadistic Sacrament.
I also took out some card draw because honestly, it just isn't necessary. I've often found it in excess, because this is a deck that builds its own engine.
- Hero's Demise (cut for Rend Flesh - less narrow, still evades Teeg)
- Altar of Shadows (cut for Duplicant - cheaper)
- Phthisis (still too slow)
- Nightmare Incursion (this might come back in)
- Ancient Craving (excess draw)
- Promise of Power (excess draw)
- Sigil of Distinction (too slow to win with - I never want to use it)
- Journeyer's Kite (huge tempo loss - replaced with Armillary Sphere)
- Terrain Generator (never had those excess swamps)
- Nevinyrral's Disk (extremely slow, replaced with All is Dust)
- Ancient Tomb (too much life loss)
+ Chainer, Dementia Master (cheapest recursion engine)
+ Duplicant (colorless removal)
+ Solemn Simulacrum (ramp)
+ Tendrils of Corruption (too offset life-loss)
+ Rend Flesh (indiscriminate removal)
+ Armillary Sphere (mana developer)
+ Phyrexian Processor (alt win condition)
+ Wayfarer's Bauble (mana developer)
+ Snow-Covered Swamp (more swamp sources)
+ All is Dust (best print for the deck! gets rid of enchantments and annoying stuff!)
+ Nirkhana Revenant (another mana doubler + built in win condition!!!)
In all, the deck runs much smoother with the basic-land developers. Before, the deck would stumble over itself in the first few turns staring at a bunch of awkward over-costed spells. The main thing about this deck is that you definitely want Swamps and NOT colorless mana developers. They may be useful temporarily, but you'll be getting the most out of the deck via Swamps.
Other cards worth looking at:
- Helldozer
- Nightmare Incursion
- Imp's Mischief
- Pestilence
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Deserted Temple is excellent with Cabal Coffers, and it's amazing with Thawing Glaciers as well.
If you can fit in Imp's Mischief, do so. That card is hilariously awesome and can be quite a rude awakening for someone since no one ever expects black to interact with spells on the stack.
Also consider Magus of the Coffers as Coffers #2 that can also be recurred via Xiahou Dun and other creature recursion.
Thanks SC,
All of these cards have been in the deck at one point or another.
I've never actually needed the token for Promise of Power, but point taken. It's a pretty bizarre concept that this deck is actually overloaded on draw spells, but if you ever try playing it you'll know what I mean.
Deserted Temple was cut after my first test run with this deck last year. It just didn't do enough by itself. I would never go out of my way to tutor for it either. At least with Candelabra of Tawnos, I can untap multiple lands, giving it more merit. I think Deserted Temple is fine if one doesn't own a Candelabra though.
Imp's Mischief has been on my "maybe" list for the longest time. I should just put it in already haha.
Magus of the Coffers is fine, but I've chosen not to include him because he has such extreme stigma. I suppose Nirkana Revenant will carry the same black sails, but at least she doesn't require an untap phase and can also double as a kill condition. I suppose Magus is a fine choice thanks to Corpse Dance, but it's still not enough to make me want to run him again.
There's a lot of subjectiveness when it comes to MBC I've noticed. More of it is personal preference and metagames than it is pure efficiency. That said, it's just habit for me to take everything with a grain of salt. I thank anyone who comes in here with suggestions though - it helps to spin the cranial cogs that are needed to make this deck better than it already is.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Point taken.
I can probably find room for it again somewhere. While we're on the subject of lands, I have honestly NEVER used Volrath's Stronghold. In my many months of playing this deck, I can't actually remember using it. I suppose "one day" I'll need it, but while putting my list under massive scrutiny over the past few days, it's actually on my watch list now. Seems like blasphemy, but it's true!
While talking about things to cut, I've also noticed these as under-performers:
- Phyrexian Reclamation
- Mirari
- Crucible of Worlds
- Innocent Blood
- Dregs of Sorrow
Just shoot me, cause by anyone's standards, these are absolute staples in any X-D deck. So why am I all of a sudden proposing these cuts? First off, Phyrexian Reclamation is a fairly expensive way of recurring X-D. I have used it, yes, but my #1 target is and always will be Corpse Dance. I suppose Phyrexian Reclamation is useful with cards like Myojin of Night's Reach, but in actual practice, I have never actually used reclamation in that way. I also can't run it out there early because it'll be shot down as collateral damage in random enchantment removal / sweepings. The main argument is that if I lose Corpse Dance, I lose my engine. That's partially true, but I still have Chainer (and Volrath's, ironically), as well as Profane Command and Grim Discovery to a lesser degree. And if anything, I can just continually hardcast his ass every turn - not like this deck has a problem producing mana in the late game. The card would honestly be fine if I ran over ~15 creatures, but I don't. I'd like to hear what people think here, cause I feel like I'll regret cutting this somewhere down the road.
Mirari is so love-hate. In some games, it can help me finish off multiple opponents, but most of the time this is because I have an over-abundance of mana. I would dare to say that this card is win-more. If I am tutoring for Mirari, it's much easier just to tutor for Sorin and knock someone's life total down to 10 so that I won't have to spend so many resources killing more than one person.
Crucible of World is in there for the obvious bandaid to Cabal Coffers and the off-chance of Strip recursion. Over the course of playing this deck however, I've actually despised seeing Strip Mine. There's really nothing I care about, as this is a largely non-interactive deck till I decide to totally kill someone. I'm not even afraid of Glacial Chasm! But I digress - Grim Discovery and Petrified Field are fine ways of retrieving a dead Cabal Coffers. Grim Discovery can even be recurred via X-D. The only reason I say this is because the deck has virtually no other use for Crucible of Worlds - it can't abuse it, and it's a dead draw early game. I know, I know: blasphemy right? After playing the deck so much, I can calmly say that Crucible is an under-performer.
Innocent Blood I used to think as necessary in order to stop the more hasty generals like Zur and Rofellos, but in multiplayer, those creatures will usually fall subject to extreme hate from the rest of the table. That doesn't excuse me from not having the answers, but perhaps this slot is better served as target removal. I do play in a more creature-light environment where everyone runs fatties instead of weenies (Progenitus included), which is why Innocent Blood is so great, but as of late I've been feeling its power waning. Should this be something else? I already have Fleshbag Marauder and Barter in Blood as my backup sacrifice effects for shroud creatures.
Dregs of Sorrow. Okay, this card isn't actually bad, but a lot of people have been telling me to cut it. I can totally understand why they wouldn't like it, but this card has been one of my guilty pleasures. I suppose it could be replaced with more "efficient" cards, like Sudden Death, but it's been pretty good about topping off my hand while removing the table's biggest threats. I'd like to hear peoples' opinions on this one.
Lastly, here are the cards I want to make room for:
- Wanderer's Twig / Pilgrim's Eye: I've fallen in love with these types of cards. They help you curve out WHILE hitting your land drops, and in return thin out your deck for you without creating massive tempo loss like with kite. This deck is all about hitting land drops!
- Imp's Mischief: there will ALWAYS be a target for this. Many times, the result can be gamebreaking. Wild Ricochet has taught me this well, and even though Mischief is inferior, it's still one of the best black has to offer.
- Nightmare Incursion: I had originally cut this because I found it overly redundant with Sadistic Sacrament, but now I'm wondering if having twice the amount of neutering cards is a better idea. Resolving either against most decks can make their lives extremely difficult - it should be worth the slot.
- Pestilence: something that was cut a long, long time ago. Now I'm wondering why haha. I think the main function of this card can be to kill multiple opponents simultaneously. If I can get off one drain, I can spend the next turn tutoring this up then killing everyone else. By itself, it can just be a weak sweeper. Thoughts?
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Infernal Darkness - This will often just ruin multiple people at the table and like Humility, while they will may angry with you and want to gang up on you they won't be able to since they've just been absolutely crippled. You can even recur it with your general if the upkeep cost gets too high.
Lethal Vapors - The kill spell that just keeps on killing. With your general you can prevent someone from ever having a turn again if they want to get rid of it without actual real removal and it doesn't really affect your general anyways since you are always immediately saccing him (I assume).
Vedalken Orrery - It looks like I play in a more counterspell heavy environment so this card might not be quite as good for you but it has been incredible for me. Enables so many broken things, end of turn Drains, instant speed tutors, I've even resolved a bunch of spells with a Forbid (buyback paid) on the stack, or you can live the dream with instant speed Yawgmoth's Will. Not so synergystic with your general but great with the rest of the deck.
Bubbling Muck - It's a 1 shot sure but I still think it is very good. Really nice with Yawgmoth's Will and Candelabra of Tawnos too.
Mindslaver - This kills people.
Sundering Titan - He will very rarely hit your lands and with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth you can blow up annoying utility lands.
I run a few more cards that are very good for dealing with pesky blue control decks but otherwise our lists are pretty similar.
I'd also like to ask opinions on Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre. Emrakul does what Mirari always wanted to do - it gives you another turn to kill everyone. Ulamog is just a great threat by himself, and doubles as a removal spell. He might also find a spot in here.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
How has this card been treating you? I find that it is way too slow and that the only time it is ever good is when you have a 1 land 1 glaciers hand. It seems way too mana intensive. Its a cool card, but I usually don't run out of lands.
1 Scrying Sheets
This card too seems way too mana intensive. I suppose Sensei's top would be good with this, but I think top doesn't deserves a slot.
1 Emrakul - I just realized today that if you have enough mana, you can sacrifice this guy and search your deck and play him again every turn. You could have infinate extra turns if nothing gets countered or graveyard removed.
I really hate to bash, but your list is honestly my list with like 5-6 marginal preference slot changes. I've seen you probing my thread even before you started your own, and I wasn't going to say anything but I probably should now. I've played this list for quite some time now, and there are some very narrow choices on here that you can ONLY find on my Xiahou Dun list and no one else's. If you want to use the list, I have no problem, but please give credit where credit is due, especially if you're going to make a new thread while mine is still fairly active. Pysces and I have grinded away on this X-D configuration to make it the best possible "drain the table" list.
Thawing Glaciers is amazing. If you have played the deck, you'll know how important developing your Swamp count is. Thawing Glaciers does both this AND helps to recover you from LD. It's not a matter of "slow" as much as it is "steady". I also do not run any fetchlands because this deck WANTS to hit its land drops, not thin the deck out exclusively.
Scrying Sheets is a recent addition. I haven't test it yet, but why not? I've been finding cards like Volrath's Stronghold lackluster, so I might cut that instead. I like drawing free cards, especially if there's nothing to do at the moment. Even though I've dropped it a lot, the curve of this deck's business spells is still fairly high.
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn you don't even need to do it multiple times. After I discovered how much of a HOUSE this guy is, I changed my gameplan to include a Pestilence effect (Crypt Rats in this case). I've had a chance to do this a few times in real practice (with proxies). Usually I'll build up 2-3 mana doublers, tutor for Myojin of Night's Reach, pitch everyone's hand, hopefully play another mana doubler, then play Emrakul. This allows me to have around 60-120 mana on the next turn, where I can literally just drain one guy, tutor for Pestilence, then kill everyone else.
Sensei's Divining Top is fine. If anything, it helps you fix your land drops early on. I have never regretted having it and I think it's wrong not to include the card. I have been considering tuning the list to include Null Rod, but I think there's too many downsides to it.
Mindslaver is okay. I don't run Beacon of Unrest (not being able to come back via X-D is a huge downer), so I have no way to recur it outside of a one-shot Yawgwin. Would be okay, though I don't think it's really necessary.
Grim Discovery is one of my subtle MVPs. It's done so many things for me and can be recurred via X-D. In a sense, I like this card more than I like Crucible, since all Crucible was really in here for originally was as Coffer and Geddon insurance.
Demonic Collusion I ran for a while. It really is too slow.
Mana Acceleration - I've been very wary of running Mana Crypt, but I think it might be a necessary evil. This deck already loses a lot of life from random stuff, so we'll see. I'm going to test this in my Coldsteel Heart slot sometime.
Edit: While I'm here, I might as well post my latest changelog (also seen at the top) -->
- Innocent Blood
- Crucible of Worlds
- Mirari
- Dregs of Sorrow
- Volrath's Stronghold
- Withered Wretch
- Bojuka Bog
+ Deserted Temple
+ Suffer the Past
+ Coldsteel Heart / Mana Crypt
+ Crypt Rats
+ Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
+ Imp's Mischief
+ Scrying Sheets
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
I'm considering squeezing in room for Rings in my Volrath deck myself, as it would really increase his lethality.
I also prefer Thrashing Wumpus over Crypt Rats, because with Wumpus, you can clear out tokens and other wimpy creatures without losing him. Hell, if you're willing to up the curve of your deck, then Pestilence Demon from RoE has both of them beat.
I have given Rings of Brighthearth thought after Bryant Cook mentioned them over on the Source forums. Indeed, the primary reason to run it would be for the interaction with Sorin Markov. I think it has the same effect that Mirari has - it CAN be good. Actually, it CAN be insane. But is it necessary? I don't think it's worth a slot in the deck. However, I think it's vital for Volrath since it's basically going to allow him to one-shot people with ease. Everything else becomes gravy.
I am, in fact, not really willing to up my curve. The whole reason I chose Crypt Rats over Pestilence was because it cost 1 less. True Thrashing Wumpus can survive, and Pestilence Demon is a big flier, but that's not really the true function of the pestilence effect; I'm playing pestilence to use as a combo piece to wipe out more than one player; the ability to take out tokens is just a side benefit.
As soon as Eldrazi rolls around on paper, I plan on playing this deck rigorously in ~4 player multiplayer. I'll let you know how these massive overhauls over the past few weeks have been panning out. It's hard to get a good look at things when the list has been constantly shifting.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=380755
Also, do you have any experience with Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief? I was thinking of giving her a try in my Maga deck, possibly even as my general.
http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/1959
Sorry for not keeping this thread more updated. I haven't even had a chance to play EDH since RoE came out, so stuff like Emrakul, the Aeons Torn remains untested. However, the preview for M11's Grave Titan had me all excited to play EDH again. Even though Grave Titan isn't particularly insane in here, the timmy inside of me is going bonkers.
Anyways, to answer some of these questions, The Abyss is definitely replaceable. The reason I run it is because it rarely affects me, as the creatures in my graveyard can always be recurred. I play in a metagame where players like to play high-power single threats, and The Abyss shines here. Call to the Grave is decent if you want to find room for more zombies (Helldozer, Withered Wretch,Undead Gladiator, and Grave Titan come to mind). Otherwise, any other removal would work and is completely dependent on your meta. Some suggestions of dynamic removal that you might want to experiment with: Consuming Vapors and Death Cloud.
Yes, Gravepact effects are always decent in MBC, but this deck is hardly made to abuse them. I tend to look at the larger picture, and in the grand scheme of things Gravepact and Butcher of Malakir just do not do enough in this deck. If there were threats I needed to take care of, I'd just recur removal with Xiahou Dun or tutor for it.
The deck has three primary focuses: ramping, neutralization, and high-impact spells. Believe it or not, little synergies don't really have any room here. Every card in this deck is chosen to aid the main plan of the goal, and thanks to X-D and his monstrous card advantage engine, everything else falls into place.
And lastly, Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief. Believe me when I say that I want to play this card just as much as you do. In fact, it may find room one day. I'm quickly realizing that the massive drain plan I have rarely falls into place perfectly in multiplayer, thus cards like Helldozer, Drana, and Grave Titan (or any other high-powered stand-alone threat) become much more valuable. Now that everyone is catching onto the hint that ARTIFACT DESTRUCTION IS GOOD, it really hinders my gameplan of ramping with massive amounts of brown acceleration. At one point I even considered playing Guardian Beast! Drana, while frail, is definitely a monstrosity when left unchecked, especially in this deck where you may have a mana doubler at any given point in time.
I'd like to hear other experienced mono black players' opinions and strategies on this archetype.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Also, (at first glance) I'm suprised by the lack of equipment in here
Good luck with the deck, I hope you continue having fun with edh!
My Current EDH Decks
WUBRG Lorwyn Block Horde of Notions WUBRG
UG Momir Vig Glimpse Combo UG
UW "Rasputin Dreamcrusher" Control UW
Thanks for the responses.
Mindslaver is not in here because while it is powerful, I don't have a way to end the game with it. Sure it is a good play, but I don't have any ways to recur it other than with Yawgmoth's Will. I feel like the deck isn't set up enough to abuse it, like a Sharuum deck can. All that said, I don't think it's a bad choice, but it's definitely a preference one for MBC.
Infernal Darkness draws too much unwanted attention and doesn't particularly further your gameplan. I used to play with Contamination in an older version of this deck, and I don't feel like it's the best way to go.
Arena of the Ancients has been one of my unsung MVPs. I think it's far from narrow as there are many generals that need to be tapped or attack to win. When I first built this deck, I ran tons and tons of removal. What I began to notice was an overflow of it and that Xiahou Dun's recursion backed by the insane amount of tutors made that strategy pretty much unnecessary. I then found a few gems that were perfect for slowing the game down while I set up my drain kills, and that was when The Abyss and Arena of the Ancients entered the list.
I've already talked about Rings of Brighthearth, Scroll Rack, Crucible of Worlds, Sensei's Divining Top, and Fetch Lands. Extensive play with MBC shows that some cards that are so "obvious" includes aren't actually that good in practice. I like my cards to be non-dependent on each other, that's just the way I like to build my lists. Not saying that support cards aren't good, but something like Rings of Brighthearth have such narrow chances to be abused in a deck like this that I don't think it warrants the spot.
And lastly about the equipment - if you read my opening post I talk about the primary strategy of winning with this deck (you are a sleeper for most the game, then you neutralize all threats with removal and discard, followed by large drains), I actually don't have many creatures (besides my general) that are designed to charge into the red zone. I used to run Nightmare Lash and/or Sigil of Distinction for horsemanship kills, but in all honesty, I've never won those games. When you're that desperate for a kill that you need to attack to win with this deck, there's probably multiple obstacles in the way. That's also why I wanted to ask opinions about strategy! The drain plan works, but it's pretty rocky most the time. My mana doublers get blown up left and right and I constantly am left without means to end the game. Thus, I propose the addition of powerful creatures and more hand disruption. Cards like Helldozer can single-handedly win games for you, and I think he should be in here. Drana may find room as well, being a continual removal source and a gigantic beatstick. Grave Titan is looking to be a massive, cost-efficient threat that if left unchecked can quickly overwhelm an opponent. I've already gone through the entire cast of black creatures, but I'd still like to hear what has been working for other people. Ditto for hand disruption!
EDITS:
- I'll give Rings a shot. Someone pointed out that it works with Xiahou Dun, and that sheds a new light on the card for me. Don't know why I hadn't thought of that before, but I think it's mostly cause I was talking to Maga players. I'm also afraid it might end up having the "danger of cool things" effect, just like how I thought Mirari was really good in here. It's still decent, but it doesn't make the cut. Hopefully Rings will be different.
- As for creatures to add, what do you guys think of these: Helldozer, Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief, Pestilence Demon, Grave Titan, and Guardian Beast?
- With the reinsertion of so many high CC permanents, I might want to add in Cabal Conditioning.
- Consuming Vapors also looks decent.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Mindslaver isn't a win condition, it's a piece of disruption. Just casting it and using it on someone is abusing it just fine, recurring Mindslaver is usually win more anyways. I've been playing it for a long time now in MBC and it is very effective at simply crippling 1 opponent or possibly 2 if 1 person has the ability to cripple another. You can also look at this as hand disruption if you want which is something you were asking for more of.
Infernal Darkness does draw attention but the nice thing about it is that it completely shuts your opponents out from casting non black spells which usually means they basically can't do much and have no way to get rid of it. It is similar to Humility in that people really want to kill you when it is in play but it stops them from doing so. Contamination is a very poor comparison in this deck because it requires additional cards to keep it in play, Infernal Darkness has a pretty reasonable upkeep cost to keep it in play for 3-5 turns which is usually all you will need. Also as you stated your game plan this actually does fit pretty well, you build up mana then drop this. It acts similarly to hand disruption in that it prevents people from casting any spells to disrupt you while you seal up the game.
For beatsticks I use Sundering Titan, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre and I just put in Pestilence Demon but haven't drawn him in the handful of games I've played since Rise released. Sundering Titan has been pretty effective for me so far and Ulamog can hit enchantments which should be enough. Helldozer was always too slow for me so I cut him eventually but you have easier ways to recur him so maybe he'd work out better for you. Grave Titan seems pretty good though.
My strategy is similar to yours but the problem I run into is when facing blue based control decks they are able to out control me. I can't just sit there and try and be the sleeper or I'll just end up losing in the late game. Beaters are helpful here to take a more proactive approach to winning the game because MBC has to take on the aggro role when facing blue control. Honestly though I tend to have real trouble dealing with these types of decks because MBC isn't really set up to take on an aggressive role and I'm not sure if there is really a good answer monoblack has to blue control decks. Gaddock Teeg also happens to randomly destroy my deck most of the time. Maybe it would be helpful if you explained the types of decks you are having trouble against.
I've made an attempt to be less reliant on artifact mana and go more for the Coffers route (then copying coffers with Vesuva and/or getting Deserted Temple) for my mana needs because it is much more difficult to destroy than artifact mana. The problem is it is also a real pain to recur, I'm really not sure if Ill-Gotten Gains would help here but it has been tremendously useful for me (of course Maga isn't too good with graveyard recursion which isn't normally a problem for you). Also my friend was playing his monoblack Drana deck and his Coffers got smashed 3 times in one game but he just kept getting it back by shuffling it back in with Eldrazi then tutoring it up. Might have just been a fluke game but I was surprised how easily he kept getting it back.
Once again, sorry for the really long delay.
I agree with your reasoning on a good amount of the cards. I also checked out your list, and I do like it a lot. However, X-D is inherently different because of the interaction with graveyard recursion spells (note I still run cards like Kagemaro, Fleshbag Marauder, and Shriekmaw to be used with Corpse Dance etc). I'm going to go over a few cards that I want to put in the deck and then a few cards that I might consider pulling out. Let me know what you guys think...
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief: in my quest to find better threats, she was always on my list. Now I'm reading from all sorts of people that she's actually better than she looks (and she already looks on the verge of viability). After hearing such claims, I think I want to put her in the deck as another large, stand-alone threat.
Grave Titan: after much thought and research, this isn't what the deck needs. Yes he can hold the ground and cause pressure, but he doesn't provide the kind of threat that casting Helldozer or Drana would (the kind of threat that screams "game ender").
Helldozer: this is the other for sure card that's coming into the deck. I've witnessed enough games where an active Helldozer can demolish one or two players - I actually think that Helldozer outclasses Sundering Titan in X-D because he can be brought back with recursion and, of course, X-D himself.
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre: everyone is doing it, so might as well. Ulamog can be pushed out fairly early thanks to the insane mana generation this deck offers and answers artifact/enchantment threats that we originally had problems with. He's also an 11/11 indestructable threat that will be a pain to deal with. My only problem with the Eldrazi is that they sometimes get in the way of my graveyard recursion. Thankfully both Ulamog and Emrakul are hard to deal with - I will not be running Kozilek for the opposite reason.
So as far as creature updates go, I think I'll be adding in Drana, Helldozer, and Ulamog. I will not be adding Grave Titan, Guardian Beast, or Pestilence Demon.
As for other cards, I think Infernal Darkness is indeed worth looking at, after hearing Donald's explanations. Grim Monolith might also make it in here, so now I have to decide what to cut. I think Phyrexian Processor (for Drana), Duplicant (for Ulamog), Shriekmaw (for Helldozer), and one more card for Infernal Darkness might be leaving, but we'll see. Suggestions? Comments?
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
A friend pointed out that the Eldrazi are actually a liability when playing vs blue deck. Unless I run a significantly larger number of sacrifice effects (like Innocent Blood and stuff), I probably shouldn't be depending on these guys. I haven't played very many games since RoE, but yesterday I did get my Emrakul briberied against me. Ulamog is much more manageable, but the main reason I'd want him is because he can hit enchantments much more reliably. However, All is Dust should be close to being enough.
So in order to still maintain my original gameplan, I'm going to try out Guardian Beast in that same slot. That way I can still pass the turn without worrying about dying horrendously. Combined with Infernal Darkness and Myojin of Night's Reach, I should be able to hold the ground for a turn.
So the current changes stand as:
Shriekmaw -> Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Phyrexian Processor -> Infernal Darkness
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn -> Guardian Beast
I still want to fit in either Helldozer or Sundering Titan as another major disruption card, so we'll see how my games pan out and I'll keep this thread updated.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain